Arborea was the same as Arvandor, and was the home of the Seldarine. I have the book in which the Eladrin first appeared in 1995, Planescape Monstrous Manual II. Here it details how the Eladrin and the Elves of Arborea (aka Arvandor) got along but generally kept to themselves. It also mentions numerous times how closely the two races resemble one another. As well, it also states that they are a creature of the "Fey" on several occasions. Their Queen was called the Faerie Queen and is stated as being "the most gracious of eladrins."
From my understanding of how they tied the Eladrin with the origins of the Realms Elves, it would now read to me that the Eladrin of Arborea (Arvandor) probably came from the Feywilds themselves and were indeed the same, albeit an offshoot-of, Eladrin from the Feywilds.
Keep in mind, now that Arborea is no more - as it collapsed during the Spellplague - it has been reformed in the Astral Sea as Arvandor and home of Corellon Larethian.
If you check the planescape material where Arborea was first fully detailed you'll see Arborea wasn't the same as Arvandor per se. But like i mentioned previously Arvandor was just one of the three layers that made up the Arborean Glades plane. I think another was Mithrandir (always makes me laugh for the blatant tolkien reference) which was a desert where a race of giants and titans once dwelled and I don't recall the third layer but it was something to do with the Elemental plane of water.
As I said its nice how they tied it together for 4th but it still doesnt change the fact that Eladrin had nothing to do with elves prior to that lol Having interactions and getting along does not the same species make.
Spellplague changed a lot of thing (understatement).
But again going back to my original point Im not arguing that it isnt nice and plausible (to an extent) how they have tied it together for 4th ed but merely that prior to 4th ed Elves and Eladrin were totally separate entities with nothing to more to do with each other species-wise than neighbours chatting over the garden fence
Also can I just say how nice it is to have another place to talk about this stuff. I've spent so many years reading, running, playing and collecting this stuff its nice to leak a bit of nerd here and there about it lol
Ser Alathor Crownguard, Cwelenas Alenuath, Dwarin Stonefist, Danaerys Hellborn
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
If you check the planescape material where Arborea was first fully detailed you'll see Arborea wasn't the same as Arvandor per se. But like i mentioned previously Arvandor was just one of the three layers that made up the Arborean Glades plane. I think another was Mithrandir (always makes me laugh for the blatant tolkien reference) which was a desert where a race of giants and titans once dwelled and I don't recall the third layer but it was something to do with the Elemental plane of water.
As I said its nice how they tied it together for 4th but it still doesnt change the fact that Eladrin had nothing to do with elves prior to that lol Having interactions and getting along does not the same species make.
Spellplague changed a lot of thing (understatement).
But again going back to my original point Im not arguing that it isnt nice and plausible (to an extent) how they have tied it together for 4th ed but merely that prior to 4th ed Elves and Eladrin were totally separate entities with nothing to more to do with each other species-wise than neighbours chatting over the garden fence
Also can I just say how nice it is to have another place to talk about this stuff. I've spent so many years reading, running, playing and collecting this stuff its nice to leak a bit of nerd here and there about it lol
Oh yeah, definitely, I'm not arguing about the plane of Arborea's past or the Eladrins. Just trying to point out objective facts I have learned in my years as a DM of an on-going FR Campaign. I have quite a lot of experience dealing with the Planes and the Gods! Yeah, I'm bragging a little, but hey when I've run the same campaign with the same players (mostly) for so many years... ;-)
Factual evidence, there is no definitive statement prior to 4th edition that says the Eladrin are cousins of the Elves. It is not until after the destruction of the planes, their reshaping and publication in 4th edition that their relationship has become crystal clear. Well, maybe not crystal clear at first glance, but add all the pieces together and yeah, they did indeed tie it all nicely together!
Oh yeah, definitely, I'm not arguing about the plane of Arborea's past or the Eladrins. Just trying to point out objective facts I have learned in my years as a DM of an on-going FR Campaign. I have quite a lot of experience dealing with the Planes and the Gods! Yeah, I'm bragging a little, but hey when I've run the same campaign with the same players (mostly) for so many years... ;-)
No worries on that front ive been running a weekly game in the Forgotten Realms myself for the last 34 years. during which time I've had three groups, though one has remained mostly the same.
As I mentioned before I've also been involved with almost every edition of D&D not just by DM'ing and on occasion playing but also by playtesting for WOTC and many other third party companies who produced D&D material (non realms) and later thier own game systems/worlds (when the d20 licensing went away)that total well over 250+ before we lost count.
I've lived and breathed D&D (and other games but to a much lesser extent) my entire life from the age of 7 for a hobby. I am now 39 years old. Initially we had a Greyhawk campaign when it used to be the default worlds (1st ed AD&D time) but switched to Forgotten Realms the moment it was released (still have my battered grey box).
My extensive knowledge of the world may also seem like bragging to some but it has a firm foundation in having been earnt through reading and using the material many many times over a very long period of multiple decades.
Now if youn wanted the same level of knowledge from me regarding Greyhawk or Krynn or Mystara or Dark Sun etc.. I could provide but nowhere near on the same level as I can with Forgotten Realms. When it comes to old Abeir Toril (and all things Middle Earth for that matter) my nerd-fu is great lol
Factual evidence, there is no definitive statement prior to 4th edition that says the Eladrin are cousins of the Elves. It is not until after the destruction of the planes, their reshaping and publication in 4th edition that their relationship has become crystal clear. Well, maybe not crystal clear at first glance, but add all the pieces together and yeah, they did indeed tie it all nicely together!
Indeed, thats all i've been saying. And I agree they did a good job at pulling the various loose ends scattered here and there over the years into some sort of cohesive sense to provide a new direction for them even if it wasnt necessarily one I'd have gone with
Ser Alathor Crownguard, Cwelenas Alenuath, Dwarin Stonefist, Danaerys Hellborn
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited November 2012
Back onto the topic of Races, I thought I'd share my post in another thread that is on topic here as well as share with everyone the lengthy list of races that I have allowed in my PnP Campaign for many, many years:
It's pretty clear that I am against having Warforged. However, from a DM Perspective as a PnP DM of Forgotten Realms, I must admit that it is indeed possible for any races of any of the Campaigns to make their way into the Realms. Spelljammer's rules allows for such, however with the Spellplague it would be increasingly difficult for outsiders to come and go from our Crystal Sphere whether by Magical Methods or by Spelljammer Ships.
It is recorded in History that Netheril, back in the Arcane Age before Karsus cast that fateful spell, had Spelljammer technologies. Even in more present times before the Spellplague, some large cities had Spelljammer ports. Realm's Spelljammer space is called, "Realmspace."
I'd like to see the focus for races placed on Realms-specific for much of the first years or so of release development however. Mayhaps years down the road when we start getting to where we're expanding out of the Northern Continent, expansions could include Spelljamming focus on other races. Although, as vast and populous and diverse as the whole of the Realms are, there are SO many Realms-specific races that need to, in my opinion, have priority. The Realms Lore should always have priority over outside Campaign Settings.
Here is my list of playable races I allow in my PnP Campaign:
Centaur
Dwarf, Arctic
Dwarf, Gold
Dwarf, Grey (Duergar)
Dwarf, Shield
Dwarf, Urdunnir
Dwarf, Wild
Elf, Aquatic (Alu'Tel'Quessir)
Elf, Avariel (Al'Karak'Elam)
Elf, Drow (Yat'Tel'Quessir)
Elf, Moon (Teu'Tel'Quessir)
Elf, Sun (Ar'Tel'Quessir)
Elf, Wild (Sy'Tel'Quessir)
Elf, Copper (Eaerlanni)
Gnome, Deep (Svirfneblin)
Gnome, Forest
Gnome, Rock
Goblinoid, Goblin
Goblinoid, Hobgoblin
Goblinoid, Bugbear
Goblinoid, Dekanter Goblin
Half-Dragon, Elf
Half-Dragon, Human
Half-Elf, Aquatic
Half-Elf, Avariel
Half-Elf, Common (Sun, Moon, Wild, Copper)
Half-Elf, Drow
Halfling, Ghostwise
Halfling, Lightfoot
Halfling, Strongheart
Human, Bedine
Human, Ffolk
Human, C a l i s h i t e
Human, Chondathan
Human, Chultan
Human, Cormyrian
Human, Dalelander
Human, Damaran
Human, Durpari
Human, Halruuan
Human, Illuskan
Human, Imaskari
Human, Lantanna
Human, Maztican
Human, Mulan
Human, Nar
Human, Netherese
Human, Rashemi
Human, Raumviran
Human, Rengarth
Human, Shou
Human, Sossrim
Human, Talfir
Human, Tashalan
Human, Tethyrian
Human, Thayan
Human, Tuigan
Human, Turami
Human, Ulutiun
Human, Vaasan
Human, Zakharan
Orc, Grey
Orc, Half-Human
Orc, Half-Elf
Orc, Mountain
Orc, Deep (Orog)
Planetouched, Aasimar
Planetouched, Bariaur - Female
Planetouched, Bariaur - Male
Planetouched, Genasi - Air
Planetouched, Genasi - Earth
Planetouched, Genasi - Fire
Planetouched, Genasi - Water
Planetouched, Githzerai
Planetouched, Human
Planetouched, Modron
Planetouched, Tiefling
(Note: If a player can come up with a good reason and work with me in creating any needed rules and settings for any given Monster/Creature, I would probably allow it. This is just my "recommended and ready" list. Also, keep in mind that my campaign is a 2nd edition FR/AA/PS/SJ/JoC/KT/AQ/RL mix set in 1334 DR, about a decade prior to the Time of the Troubles in a Timeline where Karsus' spell was thwarted and Mystryl never perished.)
denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
That's surely a big list, but i'm surprised about the lack of what i consider a "staple" race in 4e: Dragonborn.
Admittedly the fluff that make DB join the other races in Faerun isn't really good, but the race is good by itself and has great support.
Another little thing i've noticed is that you merged races and backgrounds: while a Gold and a Wild dwarf are surely different, a Calimshan human isn't so different from a Tethyrian human. This is an unusual choice, imho (not bad, just unusual).
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
St. Augustinus
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
That's surely a big list, but i'm surprised about the lack of what i consider a "staple" race in 4e: Dragonborn.
Admittedly the fluff that make DB join the other races in Faerun isn't really good, but the race is good by itself and has great support.
Another little thing i've noticed is that you merged races and backgrounds: while a Gold and a Wild dwarf are surely different, a Calimshan human isn't so different from a Tethyrian human. This is an unusual choice, imho (not bad, just unusual).
Yeah, as I said, it's a 2nd edition campaign. My "dragonborn" are Half-Dragons based from Council of Wyrms.
I did this for the humans to show their diversity in culture depending on what country or city-state they were raised in. Some I even have a stat bonus here and there, like the Humans from Netheril have an innate +1 to intelligence and -1 to charisma and Halruaans get +1 intelligence and -1 strength. Most are just listed for sake of also listing cultural references, mannerisms, and appearance differences - sort of like an MMO's way of letting you pick where you come from, eg cultural background, instead of just being "human." Keep in mind, that Netheril never fell in my campaign, so they have been around for thousands of years.
denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
I can well understand the difference. I usually use 4e standard races, with little work on them. I usually work on classes, as i love to min-max powers and spells.
The only change i usually make is that, if the player wants, human male gets +1 to strength -1 to dexterity and human female +1 to dexterity and -1 to strength. Nothing gamebreaking, just made to show the difference in body shape.
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
The only change i usually make is that, if the player wants, human male gets +1 to strength -1 to dexterity and human female +1 to dexterity and -1 to strength. Nothing gamebreaking, just made to show the difference in body shape.
Reminds me of the -4 flame wars with disturbing pictures shown around of non-steriotypes/(non-steriods)...
0
denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's pretty clear that I am against having Warforged. However, from a DM Perspective as a PnP DM of Forgotten Realms, I must admit that it is indeed possible for any races of any of the Campaigns to make their way into the Realms. Spelljammer's rules allows for such, however with the Spellplague it would be increasingly difficult for outsiders to come and go from our Crystal Sphere whether by Magical Methods or by Spelljammer Ships.
I allowed them as they were one of the few decent things to come from Eberron, but I explained them away as magical sentient construct constructed in ancient Netheril and that those playable were merely a few scavenged by Halruaa and awoken from magical stasis.
Not enough to be a society or culture of thier own but enough justification to explain the odd few here and there.
It is recorded in History that Netheril, back in the Arcane Age before Karsus cast that fateful spell, had Spelljammer technologies. Even in more present times before the Spellplague, some large cities had Spelljammer ports. Realm's Spelljammer space is called, "Realmspace."
Ah good old spelljammer. I may be in a minority but I liked it
Here is my list of playable races I allow in my PnP Campaign:
Elf, Aquatic (Alu'Tel'Quessir)
Elf, Avariel (Al'Karak'Elam)
Elf, Drow (Yat'Tel'Quessir)
Elf, Moon (Teu'Tel'Quessir)
Elf, Sun (Ar'Tel'Quessir)
Elf, Wild (Sy'Tel'Quessir)
Elf, Copper (Eaerlanni)
No Lythari Elves? (Ly-Tel-Quessir)
Ser Alathor Crownguard, Cwelenas Alenuath, Dwarin Stonefist, Danaerys Hellborn
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
Personally, if there was one place I could see them being made for, I think Forged would be an excellent "crew" for Spelljamming vessels. Mind you, I call them Forged because that's what they would be, unlike the historical Worforged of the Eberron campaign.
Goblins, I wanna be a goblin. Genasi would be another thing I'd be interested in- partly because it's essentially four races, I've always liked elementals so an elementalish race seems awesome to me.
Not so much a want- but with tieflings already in, I almost expect aasimar to make it in too.
0
denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Goblins, I wanna be a goblin. Genasi would be another thing I'd be interested in- partly because it's essentially four races, I've always liked elementals so an elementalish race seems awesome to me.
Not so much a want- but with tieflings already in, I almost expect aasimar to make it in too.
Aasimar, or Deva, as they were called in 4e, should be definitely in. They are one of the most beautiful races in d&d population. I'd like to see gnomes too, even if they don't have a big role in the Realms as they have in Eberron.
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
Aasimar, or Deva, as they were called in 4e, should be definitely in. They are one of the most beautiful races in d&d population. I'd like to see gnomes too, even if they don't have a big role in the Realms as they have in Eberron.
I didn't really care for that Deva thing. All of a sudden Aasimar no longer "die", instead they reincarnate elsewhere and they can no longer have children? What? Aasimar can't transport their bodies here, but Tieflings can? HOW does that even make sense? And as for that, I know not all Aasimar were gone from all of Faerun when the world changed, so how is it the ones who were there suddenly weren't, but Tieflings are walking around in bulk now? So many loopholes, Hawkings couldn't explain it. As to Gnomes, I thought they were confirmed but after looking again I guess not. I'd love nothing more than to be a bearded gnome guardian.
0
denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I didn't really care for that Deva thing. All of a sudden Aasimar no longer "die", instead they reincarnate elsewhere and they can no longer have children? What? Aasimar can't transport their bodies here, but Tieflings can? HOW does that even make sense? And as for that, I know not all Aasimar were gone from all of Faerun when the world changed, so how is it the ones who were there suddenly weren't, but Tieflings are walking around in bulk now? So many loopholes, Hawkings couldn't explain it. As to Gnomes, I thought they were confirmed but after looking again I guess not. I'd love nothing more than to be a bearded gnome guardian.
I don't use Deva racial lore in my campaign, actually, so i'm quite surprised. I'm going to re-read PHB2.
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
St. Augustinus
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I didn't really care for that Deva thing. All of a sudden Aasimar no longer "die", instead they reincarnate elsewhere and they can no longer have children? What? Aasimar can't transport their bodies here, but Tieflings can? HOW does that even make sense? And as for that, I know not all Aasimar were gone from all of Faerun when the world changed, so how is it the ones who were there suddenly weren't, but Tieflings are walking around in bulk now? So many loopholes, Hawkings couldn't explain it. As to Gnomes, I thought they were confirmed but after looking again I guess not. I'd love nothing more than to be a bearded gnome guardian.
I don't use Deva racial lore in my campaign, actually, so i'm quite surprised. I'm going to re-read PHB2.
Tieflings were humans of an ancient empire (Bael Turath) at war with the dragonborn that made a deal with devils for power against their dragonborn rivals (the devils that rebelled against Asmodeus) and the "curse" or "price" of their human deal power shows up in their descendents today as the tiefling appearance.
Assimar however as "Devas" still are linked to their extraplanar or "Astral Sea" origins why they don't have an "earthly" realm the way tieflings do and reincarnate instead of reproduce. If you look at the earlier versions of those from the Outer planes, they literally are from the plane's material and are a "part of it." In a way, this is reflected in homage of that (instead of half-celestial or mixed blood of the 3rd ed or earlier attempts for PC.)
Really, it's all in the wiki now after four and a half years.
... All of a sudden Aasimar no longer "die", instead they reincarnate elsewhere and they can no longer have children? What? Aasimar can't transport their bodies here, but Tieflings can? ....
*is whispered to*
"Spock says everything in the lore has been logically explained in lore"
Tieflings were humans of an ancient empire (Bael Turath) at war with the dragonborn that made a deal with devils for power against their dragonborn rivals (the devils that rebelled against Asmodeus) and the "curse" or "price" of their human deal power shows up in their descendents today as the tiefling appearance.
Assimar however as "Devas" still are linked to their extraplanar or "Astral Sea" origins why they don't have an "earthly" realm the way tieflings do and reincarnate instead of reproduce. If you look at the earlier versions of those from the Outer planes, they literally are from the plane's material and are a "part of it." In a way, this is reflected in homage of that (instead of half-celestial or mixed blood of the 3rd ed or earlier attempts for PC.)
Really, it's all in the wiki now after four and a half years.
Yeah yeah but I don't like Devas they're poopy boring frauds, I want my Aasimar back
Perhaps Aasimars will be added at a later stage as pigeon-men...
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited November 2012
Oh wow, I love those pictures Asmodeus, where did you find them?
As for more races and classes too, it has been said by Cryptic that they really aren't limited to how many classes and races they can add to the game. I remember a while back too, back before when I was just a lurker here, that they hinted that more races and classes will be added after release. So, please to keep the suggestions and topic flowing for this is the kind of feedback they are looking for, for sure!
I know in my personal PnP Campaign world, I also do not like the Deva shift. Nor to I like the Tiefling change or the change to Lycanthropy being a race. These three things, among several other aspects of 4e lore changes, I will probably never adopt in my Campaign - unless I come to really like such changes come D&D Next lore and ruleset.
... I also do not like the Deva shift. Nor to I like the Tiefling change ...
*Pets his devas and tieflings*
there there, haters gonna hate but people like you. Dont cry!
*hugs them*
0
galvayraMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
I love tieflings, most likely for all the wrong reasons too, i am terribly excited that they are included as playable in the game. Now i just need to figure out what class will fit my character and its hard when i don't know all the options
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."
And with that I think of the Ugly Americans cartoon
Well they are technically birds... their feather are just like a bird. So if cow face is cowmen, the bird mutation should make them birdmen species by default according to correct terminology.
But sometimes these serious jobs are given to elven good-for-nothing 'dreamers' who always speak as if inebriated. hence all these "flowery things" about angels and stuff...
Afterall, angels don't have any body below waist. how do you think...
*runs away from a mob of S&P suitmen with pitchforks*
0
neowolfenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 68
edited November 2012
Aasimar would also make me very happy, seems odd to have Tieflings and no Aasimar together being the opposite sides of the same coin. OO and Genasi too.
Ser Alathor Crownguard, Cwelenas Alenuath, Dwarin Stonefist, Danaerys Hellborn
Aasimar would also make me very happy, seems odd to have Tieflings and no Aasimar together being the opposite sides of the same coin. OO and Genasi too.
Ah! looks I I have to stop joking and go in information mode...
*information mode on*
Tieflings are no longer children of devil. They are humans. There was a human empire which was loosing to another empire. But it was strong and developed in terms of magiks. So the king signed a contract with the devil (like warlocks sign it) for powers while damning their bloodline with the taint. All the nobility became powerful, however the empire was still destroyed.
The ancient pact no longer holds true as the time has diluted the power of the contract. The taint in teifling is only visual now and not on the soul.
However, the taint triumphs over any human blood. So if one parent of the child is tiefling and other human, the child will have the taint (i.e. child will be tiefling). This is why their population keeps on increasing even after destruction of empire.
Because they already have dormant infernal taint in their blood, they still get bonus when they become warlocks.
Regarding aasimars, they were booted out as gods cannot interfere in human realms much less bear a child. Devas are essence of a god which has a consciousness of its own. So while the deva may follow similar dogma to deity, it maynot. It may even end up fighting against the deity. For example, a deva of shar may decide that darkness is hers and shar cannot have all the claim on the darkness and thus try to hurt and weaken shar. And deva are incarnations - they cant father children either(or give birth). However, deva can die and be born again as a child.
Genasi should be included in realms soon, even if not at launch. Genasi are realm's core now during to Abeir merging and all (as are dragonborn).
*information mode off*
Ah! looks I I have to stop joking and go in information mode...
*information mode on*
Tieflings are no longer children of devil. They are humans. There was a human empire which was loosing to another empire. But it was strong and developed in terms of magics. So the king signed a contract with the devil (like warlocks sign it) for powers while damning their bloodline with the taint. All the nobility became powerful, however the empire was still destroyed.
The ancient pact no longer holds true as the time has diluted the power of the contract. The taint in tiefling is only visual now and not on the soul.
However, the taint triumphs over any human blood. So if one parent of the child is tiefling and other human, the child will have the taint (i.e. child will be tiefling). This is why their population keeps on increasing even after destruction of empire.
Because they already have dormant infernal taint in their blood, they still get bonus when they become warlocks.
Regarding aasimars, they were booted out as gods cannot interfere in human realms much less bear a child. Devas are essence of a god which has a consciousness of its own. So while the deva may follow similar dogma to deity, it maynot. It may even end up fighting against the deity. For example, a deva of Shar may decide that darkness is hers and Shar cannot have all the claim on the darkness and thus try to hurt and weaken Shar. And deva are incarnations - they can't father children either(or give birth). However, deva can die and be born again as a child.
Genasi should be included in realms soon, even if not at launch. Genasi are realm's core now during to Abeir merging and all (as are dragonborn).
*information mode off*
All these retcon's are ridiculous. So then Aasimar still exist, just not on the prime material plane. As to aasimar's being children of gods, I thought they were children of ANGELS and gods, and therefore not all technically gods (or partial). If angels are connected to the gods and kicked out for it, then an imp is a devil, so they're connected to Asmodeus (the god). In which case, any devil's are no longer allowed on the prime plane. And then neither would their tiefling offspring, no matter how far removed the bloodline is. IF I'm correct in understanding what you said Gillrmn.
0
neowolfenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 68
edited November 2012
What was wrong with Assaimar and Tieflings are simply the mortal children of Outsiders.. its how they were introduced itno the game originally, it was simple, succinct, it required no complex tweak or backstory...sigh. lol
Ser Alathor Crownguard, Cwelenas Alenuath, Dwarin Stonefist, Danaerys Hellborn
Comments
Hmm welp if i get Bo that means I own Kenzi by default and I will let you have her, she's kinda hot too!
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
If you check the planescape material where Arborea was first fully detailed you'll see Arborea wasn't the same as Arvandor per se. But like i mentioned previously Arvandor was just one of the three layers that made up the Arborean Glades plane. I think another was Mithrandir (always makes me laugh for the blatant tolkien reference) which was a desert where a race of giants and titans once dwelled and I don't recall the third layer but it was something to do with the Elemental plane of water.
As I said its nice how they tied it together for 4th but it still doesnt change the fact that Eladrin had nothing to do with elves prior to that lol Having interactions and getting along does not the same species make.
Spellplague changed a lot of thing (understatement).
But again going back to my original point Im not arguing that it isnt nice and plausible (to an extent) how they have tied it together for 4th ed but merely that prior to 4th ed Elves and Eladrin were totally separate entities with nothing to more to do with each other species-wise than neighbours chatting over the garden fence
Also can I just say how nice it is to have another place to talk about this stuff. I've spent so many years reading, running, playing and collecting this stuff its nice to leak a bit of nerd here and there about it lol
Oh yeah, definitely, I'm not arguing about the plane of Arborea's past or the Eladrins. Just trying to point out objective facts I have learned in my years as a DM of an on-going FR Campaign. I have quite a lot of experience dealing with the Planes and the Gods! Yeah, I'm bragging a little, but hey when I've run the same campaign with the same players (mostly) for so many years... ;-)
Factual evidence, there is no definitive statement prior to 4th edition that says the Eladrin are cousins of the Elves. It is not until after the destruction of the planes, their reshaping and publication in 4th edition that their relationship has become crystal clear. Well, maybe not crystal clear at first glance, but add all the pieces together and yeah, they did indeed tie it all nicely together!
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
No worries on that front ive been running a weekly game in the Forgotten Realms myself for the last 34 years. during which time I've had three groups, though one has remained mostly the same.
As I mentioned before I've also been involved with almost every edition of D&D not just by DM'ing and on occasion playing but also by playtesting for WOTC and many other third party companies who produced D&D material (non realms) and later thier own game systems/worlds (when the d20 licensing went away)that total well over 250+ before we lost count.
I've lived and breathed D&D (and other games but to a much lesser extent) my entire life from the age of 7 for a hobby. I am now 39 years old. Initially we had a Greyhawk campaign when it used to be the default worlds (1st ed AD&D time) but switched to Forgotten Realms the moment it was released (still have my battered grey box).
My extensive knowledge of the world may also seem like bragging to some but it has a firm foundation in having been earnt through reading and using the material many many times over a very long period of multiple decades.
Now if youn wanted the same level of knowledge from me regarding Greyhawk or Krynn or Mystara or Dark Sun etc.. I could provide but nowhere near on the same level as I can with Forgotten Realms. When it comes to old Abeir Toril (and all things Middle Earth for that matter) my nerd-fu is great lol
Indeed, thats all i've been saying. And I agree they did a good job at pulling the various loose ends scattered here and there over the years into some sort of cohesive sense to provide a new direction for them even if it wasnt necessarily one I'd have gone with
It is recorded in History that Netheril, back in the Arcane Age before Karsus cast that fateful spell, had Spelljammer technologies. Even in more present times before the Spellplague, some large cities had Spelljammer ports. Realm's Spelljammer space is called, "Realmspace."
I'd like to see the focus for races placed on Realms-specific for much of the first years or so of release development however. Mayhaps years down the road when we start getting to where we're expanding out of the Northern Continent, expansions could include Spelljamming focus on other races. Although, as vast and populous and diverse as the whole of the Realms are, there are SO many Realms-specific races that need to, in my opinion, have priority. The Realms Lore should always have priority over outside Campaign Settings.
Here is my list of playable races I allow in my PnP Campaign:
(Note: If a player can come up with a good reason and work with me in creating any needed rules and settings for any given Monster/Creature, I would probably allow it. This is just my "recommended and ready" list. Also, keep in mind that my campaign is a 2nd edition FR/AA/PS/SJ/JoC/KT/AQ/RL mix set in 1334 DR, about a decade prior to the Time of the Troubles in a Timeline where Karsus' spell was thwarted and Mystryl never perished.)
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Admittedly the fluff that make DB join the other races in Faerun isn't really good, but the race is good by itself and has great support.
Another little thing i've noticed is that you merged races and backgrounds: while a Gold and a Wild dwarf are surely different, a Calimshan human isn't so different from a Tethyrian human. This is an unusual choice, imho (not bad, just unusual).
St. Augustinus
Yeah, as I said, it's a 2nd edition campaign. My "dragonborn" are Half-Dragons based from Council of Wyrms.
I did this for the humans to show their diversity in culture depending on what country or city-state they were raised in. Some I even have a stat bonus here and there, like the Humans from Netheril have an innate +1 to intelligence and -1 to charisma and Halruaans get +1 intelligence and -1 strength. Most are just listed for sake of also listing cultural references, mannerisms, and appearance differences - sort of like an MMO's way of letting you pick where you come from, eg cultural background, instead of just being "human." Keep in mind, that Netheril never fell in my campaign, so they have been around for thousands of years.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
The only change i usually make is that, if the player wants, human male gets +1 to strength -1 to dexterity and human female +1 to dexterity and -1 to strength. Nothing gamebreaking, just made to show the difference in body shape.
St. Augustinus
Lol, yeah, distinguishing men/women stats it's an argument that often leads to flame wars.
This is why i like to give players the final choice.
St. Augustinus
I allowed them as they were one of the few decent things to come from Eberron, but I explained them away as magical sentient construct constructed in ancient Netheril and that those playable were merely a few scavenged by Halruaa and awoken from magical stasis.
Not enough to be a society or culture of thier own but enough justification to explain the odd few here and there.
Ah good old spelljammer. I may be in a minority but I liked it
No Lythari Elves? (Ly-Tel-Quessir)
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Not so much a want- but with tieflings already in, I almost expect aasimar to make it in too.
Aasimar, or Deva, as they were called in 4e, should be definitely in. They are one of the most beautiful races in d&d population. I'd like to see gnomes too, even if they don't have a big role in the Realms as they have in Eberron.
St. Augustinus
I didn't really care for that Deva thing. All of a sudden Aasimar no longer "die", instead they reincarnate elsewhere and they can no longer have children? What? Aasimar can't transport their bodies here, but Tieflings can? HOW does that even make sense? And as for that, I know not all Aasimar were gone from all of Faerun when the world changed, so how is it the ones who were there suddenly weren't, but Tieflings are walking around in bulk now? So many loopholes, Hawkings couldn't explain it. As to Gnomes, I thought they were confirmed but after looking again I guess not. I'd love nothing more than to be a bearded gnome guardian.
I don't use Deva racial lore in my campaign, actually, so i'm quite surprised. I'm going to re-read PHB2.
St. Augustinus
Tieflings were humans of an ancient empire (Bael Turath) at war with the dragonborn that made a deal with devils for power against their dragonborn rivals (the devils that rebelled against Asmodeus) and the "curse" or "price" of their human deal power shows up in their descendents today as the tiefling appearance.
Assimar however as "Devas" still are linked to their extraplanar or "Astral Sea" origins why they don't have an "earthly" realm the way tieflings do and reincarnate instead of reproduce. If you look at the earlier versions of those from the Outer planes, they literally are from the plane's material and are a "part of it." In a way, this is reflected in homage of that (instead of half-celestial or mixed blood of the 3rd ed or earlier attempts for PC.)
Really, it's all in the wiki now after four and a half years.
*is whispered to*
"Spock says everything in the lore has been logically explained in lore"
*whispers to spock, 'but wth does it means?'*
Yeah yeah but I don't like Devas they're poopy boring frauds, I want my Aasimar back
Aasimar=good
Deva=poopy
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
As for more races and classes too, it has been said by Cryptic that they really aren't limited to how many classes and races they can add to the game. I remember a while back too, back before when I was just a lurker here, that they hinted that more races and classes will be added after release. So, please to keep the suggestions and topic flowing for this is the kind of feedback they are looking for, for sure!
I know in my personal PnP Campaign world, I also do not like the Deva shift. Nor to I like the Tiefling change or the change to Lycanthropy being a race. These three things, among several other aspects of 4e lore changes, I will probably never adopt in my Campaign - unless I come to really like such changes come D&D Next lore and ruleset.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
And with that I think of the Ugly Americans cartoon
*Pets his devas and tieflings*
there there, haters gonna hate but people like you. Dont cry!
*hugs them*
Well they are technically birds... their feather are just like a bird. So if cow face is cowmen, the bird mutation should make them birdmen species by default according to correct terminology.
But sometimes these serious jobs are given to elven good-for-nothing 'dreamers' who always speak as if inebriated. hence all these "flowery things" about angels and stuff...
Afterall, angels don't have any body below waist. how do you think...
*runs away from a mob of S&P suitmen with pitchforks*
*information mode on*
Tieflings are no longer children of devil. They are humans. There was a human empire which was loosing to another empire. But it was strong and developed in terms of magiks. So the king signed a contract with the devil (like warlocks sign it) for powers while damning their bloodline with the taint. All the nobility became powerful, however the empire was still destroyed.
The ancient pact no longer holds true as the time has diluted the power of the contract. The taint in teifling is only visual now and not on the soul.
However, the taint triumphs over any human blood. So if one parent of the child is tiefling and other human, the child will have the taint (i.e. child will be tiefling). This is why their population keeps on increasing even after destruction of empire.
Because they already have dormant infernal taint in their blood, they still get bonus when they become warlocks.
Regarding aasimars, they were booted out as gods cannot interfere in human realms much less bear a child. Devas are essence of a god which has a consciousness of its own. So while the deva may follow similar dogma to deity, it maynot. It may even end up fighting against the deity. For example, a deva of shar may decide that darkness is hers and shar cannot have all the claim on the darkness and thus try to hurt and weaken shar. And deva are incarnations - they cant father children either(or give birth). However, deva can die and be born again as a child.
Genasi should be included in realms soon, even if not at launch. Genasi are realm's core now during to Abeir merging and all (as are dragonborn).
*information mode off*
All these retcon's are ridiculous. So then Aasimar still exist, just not on the prime material plane. As to aasimar's being children of gods, I thought they were children of ANGELS and gods, and therefore not all technically gods (or partial). If angels are connected to the gods and kicked out for it, then an imp is a devil, so they're connected to Asmodeus (the god). In which case, any devil's are no longer allowed on the prime plane. And then neither would their tiefling offspring, no matter how far removed the bloodline is. IF I'm correct in understanding what you said Gillrmn.