Loot brings up Auction Houses, game balance, and item inflation. And some of what I've read indicates that Coptic will be locking down loot availability. If they aren't letting Foundry mods. even choose the specific loot from chests, then we can project that crafting is out too.
This is where mmo and PnP really struggle. PnP has items that matter to the story, and items that matter to the characters. MMOs don't because you can't have 50 Eyes of Vecna on the Auction House. There are also complications to introducing unique loot because it can screw game balance. If everybody has it, it's not very powerful anymore.
DDO has done a reasonably good job by creating massive amounts of random loot types with the their randomly applied prefix and suffix slots. This meant that any piece of loot could be trash to one char. (because I'm an acid spec. Wizard and it's fire buff. loot) but exactly what another char needs. Sure, there are lots of items that make no sense (like 20% mana bonus 2h-swords) but there is a VERY active auction house on DDO because the wide variety of character types (multi-classed, many specs, etc.) need an odd assortment of items. If the NWO devs put care into making sure there's no "uber" item traits they will have the loot get traded around and even inspire strange new character specs.
In fact where DDO fails is their unique in game loot that is so superior to the random type items, loot grinds became the norm because they were nearly requisite for high lvl. dungeons.
What is patently evil is rare loot drops... you can tell the color of a developer's soul from this alone. There are MANY ways to make content repeatable. Rare loot is the LEAST inspiring. DDO made Casual, normal, hard, and epic settings. That's a really effective solution, especially when different traps and monsters spawn at different settings, it's a nice surprise for little effort. Other games make instances that have very different puzzles that require different character classes to solve them. Instances that provide different rewards for different accomplishments (completing on stealth without killing any mobs or keeping an NPC alive as an optional) also works.
It's hard to be creative with this stuff, but what's possible, what's desired by most players, is having a wide array of loot items that other players MIGHT want on the auction house...nobody wants to just cash in trash loot at the bar, and if auction houses were as easy to use as eBay, we'd have fun playing those markets.
The REAL solution is making a crafting system that includes deconstructing loot to raw materials (iron, cloth, essence, element, etc.) and then craftable to a rate of level bound diminishing returns. What I mean is that crafting my +1 sword to +2 take two-bronze ingots, but +2 to +3 takes four-bronze ingots. So improvement is ever possible, but requires more and more resources.
That said, crafting is a HUGE development headache, and the track record for crafting focused worlds (EverquestII, Star Wars Galaxies, EVE) isn't inspiring. The crafting is great, but the games have NOT been breakout successes.
I know absolutely nothing about IF there exist any Auction House or crafting. However they still have said very little. The game will not have the silly Guild Wars 2 item system though. Whatever as endgame we also have the FOUNDRY and lots of Dungeons:).
im sorry i dont find things very epic when its just a group can take down the badest monster in town
raids to me is all about utilizeing every lil ability other people have
raids are all a bout cooperation and leadership and skills
i said 50 as a extreme number( i had some account problems) this is the op)
id like2 to 3 groups as the average raids size maybe the biggest <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> around takes more
to clarify some things i do not nore ever have played wow i played everquest for 10 years
eq is the one that started all the raiding imo
raids that are over and done with lickity split leave no time for chating or planning now i dont want to go the route of endless trash clears either
and i dont want raid items to be x2 powerful as normal items more like 10-20% more powerful for a full set and suitably cool class/path specific effects
raid items should be no drop and never hit the auction house
i dont mind rare drops... remeber ya want to be playing this game for a loong time , but ti should be more in the lines of this is the best item for the highest lvl period or just looks freaking cool
vash the drunk what about dragons swallowing things or haveing say a sword stuck in them and theyre death can always allow you to find their treasure later after its dead say through some sort of puzzle
50 man raids may not be what dnd is about but. how many people have 50 friends irl who get together every week ? id bet not many though i think it would be fun and again i said 50 as the absolute max maybe even of the type as was suggested gm controlled or scripted
I dont want players to feel they have to raid to be good players but maybe a bit of awe or a feeling of accomplishment after deafeating something that toook your entire guild to take down
in everquest 1 before the first expansion there was exactly 3 raid zones and 2-4 raid monsters and minions in other zones
Theres not much point in guilds in nwn if there isnt something for them to do together
dont like to raid ? dont do it i i dont want raid items to be neccessary to play... if your into roleplaying really do you think 6 puny mortals will take down an ancient dragon or that someone could solo cthullu
i just want that good guild feeling again kicking butt and hanging out
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aavariusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
I, not knowing the STO foundry and assuming it to be similar to what we are about to get in NW, consider the balance and bug issues mentioned above to be valid. How did they get around the character editing, item gathering, cash hoarding and not allow it to be imported into the campaign in your experience?
Sorry, I got busy and couldn't answer the question as promptly as I would have liked.
A disclaimer:
I suspect that since STO Foundry was only recently updated for Season 6, the first update it's gotten in a long time, that the NW Foundry has had some time to grow into its own animal. As such, you can proably take anything I or anybody else says based on experience in STO with a grain of salt. Naturally, none of us know specifically what's going on with NW.
So! To your question, the way it works in STO is the character(s) you normally play in the MMO are the same ones you'll use to play in the Foundry. Think of it like a permanent Server Vault from Neverwinter Nights. As such, there's no way to edit your character outside the means normally provided by Cryptic in the MMO. No giving yourself XP, Gold, or equipment. You can't hand place any of these three things in a Foundry mission.
Now, there are still random item and level-adjusted XP drops from enemies as normal, but it's not really efficient to farm critters for either of those things in STO because they are either a) very random, b) very infrequent, or c) very low. Champions Online is much the same. You're better off playing content than farming critters if you want loot. I don't remember STO having any gold (energy credits) drops off the top of my head, but that's more an issue of style, I'd say. If CO had a Foundry I suspect the critter mobs would still drop gold (resources) as normal. Anything from a loot table you just happen to pick up in the STO Foundry goes with you into the regular MMO areas. Since a player can't rely on it, though, it can't really be exploited unless the loot tables get messed up on Cryptic's end.
The only loot related award in the STO Foundry is a wrapper. It's a mission/quest you can pick up once every 20 real life hours. It gives you more or less the value of a regular Cryptic created mission for completing 3 user created missions. There's a term I hear used called "console clickers" to describe missions with a single objective that can be completed rapidly to help farm the reward wrapper. The 20 hour timer keeps this from being an exploit.
All that being as it is, the STO Foundry situation is far from perfect. There's little in-game incentive to play any Foundry missions except the wrapper, which you only get about once a day. As it stands now the only continual benefit is getting to enjoy other people's creative work, which, of course, is a highly subjective and impossible to quantify reward. I'm hoping NW has some better ways to address this.
Because what you and I excpect from adventure is obviously different. For me a good adventure is not only go into small Dungeon with 5 players kill some monsters and then done.
Yes there can be short instances, but then I expect a long linear story divided into multiple modules and good story background. It is quite ironic you talk about selling point when game is free.
Is it obvious? I don't think it is. I've written previously in this thread about the whole continuum: missions created over an hour lunch break to missions that are created over a efew months. My point is that the barrier for entry appears to be low enough to accomodate both extremes.
Also, I don't follow how that's ironic. Not everything that's sold has to do with money. Cryptic and PWE still have to sell people on the idea that NW is a game they want to play.
... missions created over an hour lunch break to missions that are created over a efew months. My point is that the barrier for entry appears to be low enough to accomodate both extremes....
To add to that point, the devs have commented that they have a "good" ranking system in place for NW foundry missions. Hence good and bad missions can be ranked for benefits.
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aavariusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2012
The rating sytem in STO can be woefully unforgiving at the whim of a single malicious user. It's an ongoing problem that I truly hope the NW team has a better solution for. (I'm not expecting perfection, of course).
I thank you for these insights into the STO foundry and would like to add that in CO, the countless missions and events don't have an impact on the world either. They happen in a kind of different dimension, where any loot drops are just the same as all the other standard items. When you leave the event, nothing remains. So after the thrill of a first glance of a new adventure, the only incentive to replay anything was for xp/grinding. In my view, this makes most of the (brillantly presented) content of CO a bit meaningless. Co not NW, though and i hope they will come up with a world that has more "meaning" to it.
b:cry
My best guess on what to expect...based on what I have seen in cryptic games
and what they learned in STO.
At launch - 5 man teams max
Later down the road, 20 man areas that are similar to a raid but
are sectioned in parts were players can leave or join at those points.
The players get credit per section.
Guilds - and guild activities
The character levels will prob be broken down into sub levels.
You will not see a 50th lvl DnD characters..but you might see 50 sub levels
There will be Auction House
There will be banks
There will be public areas
There will be gorgous graphics
There will be iconic locations, for main stories and as jumping off
points for UGC user generated content
These are all my best guesses based on what I know from cryptic's prior
work
========
At launch - 5 man teams max confirmed by devs
...
The character levels will prob be broken down into sub levels. No. They are instead using x3 the pnp instead of using 3 sub-levels they initally planned. So 3 lvls=1lvl instead of sublevels
You will not see a 50th lvl DnD characters..but you might see 50 sub levels At launch 60 lvl (Heroic tier -(1-10pnp) =(1-30game) and paragon - (11-20pnp)=(31-60game) Later epic tier if added would make it max 90 lvls.
...
There will be public areas confirmed by devs and showed in demos
There will be gorgous graphics Graphics should run on low end systems with lower requirements than CO or STO but will still be better on high end systems
There will be iconic locations, for main stories and as jumping off
points for UGC user generated content confirmed by devs. they said interacting barrels though afaik.
========
I thank you for these insights into the STO foundry and would like to add that in CO, the countless missions and events don't have an impact on the world either. They happen in a kind of different dimension, where any loot drops are just the same as all the other standard items. When you leave the event, nothing remains. So after the thrill of a first glance of a new adventure, the only incentive to replay anything was for xp/grinding. In my view, this makes most of the (brillantly presented) content of CO a bit meaningless. Co not NW, though and i hope they will come up with a world that has more "meaning" to it.
b:cry
I feel like I could give you a thoughtful response, but I'm having a little difficulty understanding what you mean. (That's more commentary on me, not you).
Is your concern that Adventure Packs, Comic Series, and other similar missions are instanced? If that's so, I'm not quite sure how that makes it meaningless. They seem to me like they stand on their own fairly well. Of course, there are several maps in these that I would like to see remain as persistant zones because they're just that neat looking, but I don't understand how their current use is meaningless.
Am I understanding your meaninging correctly or have I misunderstood?
I feel like I could give you a thoughtful response, but I'm having a little difficulty understanding what you mean. (That's more commentary on me, not you).
Is your concern that Adventure Packs, Comic Series, and other similar missions are instanced? If that's so, I'm not quite sure how that makes it meaningless. They seem to me like they stand on their own fairly well. Of course, there are several maps in these that I would like to see remain as persistant zones because they're just that neat looking, but I don't understand how their current use is meaningless.
Am I understanding your meaninging correctly or have I misunderstood?
As it has not been replied to, I will try to decode it a bit for you (as I have played CO so I think I grasp it a little).
In CO, there are random missions which give you buffs. There are no items etc. but just as a particular mission states. E.g. (hypothetically as I don't really remember) rescuing a hostage will give you 1 hour buff and any other mission you do, you get 2x XP. Similarly, killing a villian may give you a different buff like getting high tier items more for 1 hour. Etc. These missions are not tied to main story but just "Daily routine" for hero. And all of them have same map.
So it is like, once you have done it one, you have done it all (for a particular mission of X type buff). Just one boss monster may be changed sometimes.
However, as NW is not CO so foundry should be different like those missions. So foundry in NW should be better - to be able to tell an actual story rather than having same kind of maps (i.e. tools enough to tell a story, create twists like monster ambushes and puzzles to make each map different.)
I believe this is what he wanted to say, or rather my interpretation of what he said.
As it has not been replied to, I will try to decode it a bit for you (as I have played CO so I think I grasp it a little).
sorry about knocking about in the trash ... i am way out of sync.
Yeah thats just what i was getting at.
b:thanks
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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aavariusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2012
So you're talking about Alerts, then.
It could be just me, but I felt like the intention of Alerts being quick and dirty micro-stories of super heroes beating up super villians was pretty clear. They're certainly not Resistance or Aftershock, but I don't feel like they're trying to fill that niche either.
Somewhat related to this, I've read/listened to many discussion in the STO Foundry community on what constitutes a mission. It's a big, open, unanswerable question, because as it presently stands authors can make quick and dirty Alert-type content that draws an audience. And they can also make big story pieces that draw a different audience. What I think the community is finding is that these are both valid uses of the Foundry. Maybe I don't like "kill x critter group for accolades" content so much, but that just means I play something else.
As to the original topic, I don't think this kind of Foundry stuff is going to greatly affect gear inflation in NW if they do things like STO. In fact, STO's completely locked down when it comes to authors giving players gear. I'm personally hoping there are systems in place to open the dam up just a little bit, let us put a thing or two in a Foundry mission for players in NW.
I'm personally hoping there are systems in place to open the dam up just a little bit, let us put a thing or two in a Foundry mission for players in NW.
I think they are opening the dam. I am not sure, but a few months ago, I had a feeling that devs had said some stuff about foundry - like giving rewards to players - nothing concrete but subtle hints. But in all this time, those info may be buried in some obscure video somewhere.
I also think that some dev was specifically asked if there will be some kinds of monetary benefits but devs replied like, there would be some benefits but never said yes or no ... I am curious myself now. I will look into it tommorrow and comment more concretely with facts of their statement rather than my aging memory.
It's unfortunate now a'days that people are so focused on end-game content.. on recalling my nostalgic days.. a'lot of the best times in ( Dark age of camelot, World of ********) were not from the end-game content.. I think people need to go into the game with the goal of trying to enjoy every bit of content they get. There's nothing wrong with giving suggestions but it's saddening to see that for a'lot of people.. the end game is the primary focus.. and it shouldn't be at all.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited July 2012
Along with the extremely customize-able housing systems, having no "end-game" is also something I miss about Ultima Online. I still loathe the term, "End Game," in MMORPGs though as in my opinion, as a persistent world, the game never end. It bugs me when a game throws in "End Game" features. There should never be the hint of an end to an MMORPG, in any form. This should be especially true in a title such that bears the name, "Dungeons & Dragons." For while an adventure may end, the game will (should) continue.
It's unfortunate now a'days that people are so focused on end-game content.. on recalling my nostalgic days.. a'lot of the best times in ( Dark age of camelot, World of ********) were not from the end-game content.. I think people need to go into the game with the goal of trying to enjoy every bit of content they get. There's nothing wrong with giving suggestions but it's saddening to see that for a'lot of people.. the end game is the primary focus.. and it shouldn't be at all.
Even andy says here, that D&D is not about end-game but also about cheeky things too. I believe a lot of people will agree. Though some people may not. But the point is, while making the game devs are not keeping only end-game content in mind. So you can be happy about it.
:-)
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aesclealMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Even andy says here, that D&D is not about end-game but also about cheeky things too. I believe a lot of people will agree. Though some people may not. But the point is, while making the game devs are not keeping only end-game content in mind. So you can be happy about it.
:-)
Great reminder, I'd forgotten about that video! Thanks.
Although, Andy actually says epic, not end-game. He says it at around the 01:11 marker. isn't just about the epic
Yeah you are right, but it made me remember a funny conversation on forums a few months ago:-
the-truthseeker: it's OK, I didn't saw right now! silverspar: *imagines truth using a saw to try and saw out right now....* How the hell does that work? the-truthseeker: Smart-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> (corrects typo) silverspar: I am a D&D player. That automatically confirms that without any qualifications
Raids is what most MMO players are looking for because they played WoW, I am pretty sure this game won't be very PVP orientated and 5-man content gets old really fast.
No raids, no long term player base.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited September 2012
The thing about that concept is that this isn't just an MMO, it's a D&D game.
You may have a different definition of 'raids' than I do but when I think of WoW style raids I think 10-20 (40+) players who barely know each other wacking away at one creature.
If Cryptic added such a feature to the game you should expect most actual D&D players (their main target audience) to be put off playing this game because WoW style raids is everything D&D is not.
There should be plenty of dungeons to delve and bosses to kill...and you *could* label some of those raids.
But I'd be sorely disappointed to see WoW style raids implemented to the game as a major aspect to the gameplay.
You're free to your opinion and honestly I wouldn't even mind if it was a small side-event which gave good, yet not the best, rewards but just because other MMO's have and promote certain content as a main attraction doesn't mean that's what the players are looking for.
To me this is a D&D Game first and MMO second. If I wanted to play another MMO game I'd be there right now.
The thing about that concept is that this isn't just an MMO, it's a D&D game.
You may have a different definition of 'raids' than I do but when I think of WoW style raids I think 10-20 (40+) players who barely know each other wacking away at one creature.
If Cryptic added such a feature to the game you should expect most actual D&D players (their main target audience) to be put off playing this game because WoW style raids is everything D&D is not.
There should be plenty of dungeons to delve and bosses to kill...and you *could* label some of those raids.
But I'd be sorely disappointed to see WoW style raids implemented to the game as a major aspect to the gameplay.
You're free to your opinion and honestly I wouldn't even mind if it was a small side-event which gave good, yet not the best, rewards but just because other MMO's have and promote certain content as a main attraction doesn't mean that's what the players are looking for.
To me this is a D&D Game first and MMO second. If I wanted to play another MMO game I'd be there right now.
I respect your view and somewhat share it, I too would like to see something more than your average WoW-ish idea of endgame, personally I would like lore and character development to define this game more than anything else.
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wifeaggr0Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 16Arc User
Raids is what most MMO players are looking for because they played WoW, I am pretty sure this game won't be very PVP orientated and 5-man content gets old really fast.
No raids, no long term player base.
The game will have the foundry so im sure there will be lots of dungeon delves made, to avoid this.
Some people are over the sterotypical mmo grind for t1gear, to get t2, to then get t3, so some can play a panda with a bo-stick to keep the need for that style of gameplay. The GW2 system seems to work, and they are going ok.
PVP has delayed release of this game, so id be seeing a PVP element that will be pleasing for some.
IS there confirmation that 5man is the go, i still thought this would be decided after a closed beta, as i believe information left the party size min of 5 but experimentation was still needed.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
PVP has delayed release of this game, so id be seeing a PVP element that will be pleasing for some.
PvP will be released with the game now but the game wasn't delayed because of PvP. Not sure exactly if you were saying that or not but there's quite a bit to still be done beyond Pv development which caused the release delay. The delay simply fit with the schedule of the PvP development as far as we know.
IS there confirmation that 5man is the go, i still thought this would be decided after a closed beta, as i believe information left the party size min of 5 but experimentation was still needed.
Eeek no! There's no five man minimum. In fact the minimum is one player but there are some dungeons designed by Cryptic and eventually players which will require more.
In earlier interviews they spoke about 5 man teams as being the harder group content. I'm not sure if they stuck with this as a maximum because even I would like to see a slightly higher maximum part size but by no means did they say you needed 5 people minimum to play!
Eek...as if talking about raids wasn't going far enough out of my gaming comfort zone you scare me with five man group minimums! Haha ;-)
I respect your view and somewhat share it, I too would like to see something more than your average WoW-ish idea of endgame, personally I would like lore and character development to define this game more than anything else.
That is my hope as well I assure you. To me I find that the more players you throw in one group the more of a hack and slash game you develop. 40+ people killing one boss can't have much of a story unless you're defending a city or avoiding some other major catastrophic event.
So consider that food for thought, do other games with such large raids have any claim for great storylines behind these raids?
To me you can't have your cake and eat it too. I can't fathom a raid which would fit into my idea of a D&D persistent storyline without inherently damaging the story.
PvP will be released with the game now but the game wasn't delayed because of PvP. Not sure exactly if you were saying that or not but there's quite a bit to still be done beyond Pv development which caused the release delay. The delay simply fit with the schedule of the PvP development as far as we know.
Sorry should have IMO'd that from watching the videos, that craig mentioned pvp launching with game come early 2013, prior game was launching late 2012 with pvp to come early 2013. i understand that there is alot more work to be done, i will endeavour to elaborate more next time.
Eeek no! There's no five man minimum. In fact the minimum is one player but there are some dungeons designed by Cryptic and eventually players which will require more.
In earlier interviews they spoke about 5 man teams as being the harder group content. I'm not sure if they stuck with this as a maximum because even I would like to see a slightly higher maximum part size but by no means did they say you needed 5 people minimum to play!
Apologies i meant for dungeon delving that 5 man would be the min hence the thread title Raids and the quote i was quoting to, sorry i left this open.
Sorry should have IMO'd that from watching the videos, that craig mentioned pvp launching with game come early 2013, prior game was launching late 2012 with pvp to come early 2013. i understand that there is alot more work to be done, i will endeavour to elaborate more next time.
Apologies i meant for dungeon delving that 5 man would be the min hence the thread title Raids and the quote i was quoting to, sorry i left this open.
5-man groupings are the max. There are no raids in NW in the sense of large group (more then 5) content.
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wifeaggr0Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 16Arc User
5-man groupings are the max. There are no raids in NW in the sense of large group (more then 5) content.
My take on this it that its still not 100% that 5man will be the set party limit, i think it was a video where Andy stated that they were still looking at the party size.
I AM hopeing there are some very large raids with up to50 people
b:shocked I could only see it now for 50m raids. Hours to farm to fill raid slots. Checking people gear see they're right for a job. Minutes on trying to wake people up from AFKing. Getting 50 people on a VoIP and trying to figure who hasnt join. Trying to get 50m raid to work as a team. Then people screaming, trolling, nerd rages in voip of 50 people b:beatup .
How the raid will go down who knows but i'll bet most of these 50m raids would turn out like this. 40% of the raid standing in fire or loving a cleave to the face. 10% of the raid is AFK. 20% of the raid is attacking the wrong target. 30% of the raid actualy doing their job.
Out of that whole 50m EPIC raid you wanted only thing you got from it was to see the first boss and people nerd rage quit from the first wipe.
I dont mind raids but with limit of 10\20\25(I even think 25 is little big)
Eeek no! There's no five man minimum. In fact the minimum is one player but there are some dungeons designed by Cryptic and eventually players which will require more.
In earlier interviews they spoke about 5 man teams as being the harder group content. I'm not sure if they stuck with this as a maximum because even I would like to see a slightly higher maximum part size but by no means did they say you needed 5 people minimum to play!
Now u are scaring me I ussually play MMO's with my friends so i expect to level from 1 to 60 with them, i dont want only play delves with them.. I hope cryptic have that in mind.
I understand some people would like to play solo and i agree there should be some options for those persons but neverwinter is a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Play Game and im expecting this will be mostly a team game like Dungeons & Dragons is .
About what filsman said, he actually have a point. Ofc Foundry will gave us almost endless content but cryptic should becarefull if they are thinking foundry will fill the players desire of end game content, its not only about content its about how many features will be available for people to have fun at lvl 60. I speak for myself ofc but as soon i get level 60 i wont be playing for 2 years if the only thing i can do is playing foundry content and even from time to time cryptic content, that just not enough (at least for me.)
What should be those features, well i think a lot of people already gave toons of great ideas in the forums.
About Raids.... well raids could be an option in my opinion but it shouldnt be the only thing to do (thats why i quit wow actually) but i dont see how criptic will losse players if its just one of many other end game features options. About the gear... well 5 man delves could give better loot than a raid but it also should be much more harder.
Now u are scaring me I ussually play MMO's with my friends so i expect to level from 1 to 60 with them, i dont want only play delves with them.. I hope cryptic have that in mind.
I understand some people would like to play solo and i agree there should be some options for those persons but neverwinter is a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Play Game and im expecting this will be mostly a team game like Dungeons & Dragons is .
About what filsman said, he actually have a point. Ofc Foundry will gave us almost endless content but cryptic should becarefull if they are thinking foundry will fill the players desire of end game content, its not only about content its about how many features will be available for people to have fun at lvl 60. I speak for myself ofc but as soon i get level 60 i wont be playing for 2 years if the only thing i can do is playing foundry content and even from time to time cryptic content, that just not enough (at least for me.)
What should be those features, well i think a lot of people already gave toons of great ideas in the forums.
About Raids.... well raids could be an option in my opinion but it shouldnt be the only thing to do (thats why i quit wow actually) but i dont see how criptic will losse players if its just one of many other end game features options. About the gear... well 5 man delves could give better loot than a raid but it also should be much more harder.
I dont think finding people on a single server would be much of an issue in this game.
Comments
I know absolutely nothing about IF there exist any Auction House or crafting. However they still have said very little. The game will not have the silly Guild Wars 2 item system though.
Whatever as endgame we also have the FOUNDRY and lots of Dungeons:).
raids to me is all about utilizeing every lil ability other people have
raids are all a bout cooperation and leadership and skills
i said 50 as a extreme number( i had some account problems) this is the op)
id like2 to 3 groups as the average raids size maybe the biggest <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> around takes more
to clarify some things i do not nore ever have played wow i played everquest for 10 years
eq is the one that started all the raiding imo
raids that are over and done with lickity split leave no time for chating or planning now i dont want to go the route of endless trash clears either
and i dont want raid items to be x2 powerful as normal items more like 10-20% more powerful for a full set and suitably cool class/path specific effects
raid items should be no drop and never hit the auction house
i dont mind rare drops... remeber ya want to be playing this game for a loong time , but ti should be more in the lines of this is the best item for the highest lvl period or just looks freaking cool
vash the drunk what about dragons swallowing things or haveing say a sword stuck in them and theyre death can always allow you to find their treasure later after its dead say through some sort of puzzle
50 man raids may not be what dnd is about but. how many people have 50 friends irl who get together every week ? id bet not many though i think it would be fun and again i said 50 as the absolute max maybe even of the type as was suggested gm controlled or scripted
I dont want players to feel they have to raid to be good players but maybe a bit of awe or a feeling of accomplishment after deafeating something that toook your entire guild to take down
in everquest 1 before the first expansion there was exactly 3 raid zones and 2-4 raid monsters and minions in other zones
Theres not much point in guilds in nwn if there isnt something for them to do together
dont like to raid ? dont do it i i dont want raid items to be neccessary to play... if your into roleplaying really do you think 6 puny mortals will take down an ancient dragon or that someone could solo cthullu
i just want that good guild feeling again kicking butt and hanging out
A disclaimer:
I suspect that since STO Foundry was only recently updated for Season 6, the first update it's gotten in a long time, that the NW Foundry has had some time to grow into its own animal. As such, you can proably take anything I or anybody else says based on experience in STO with a grain of salt. Naturally, none of us know specifically what's going on with NW.
So! To your question, the way it works in STO is the character(s) you normally play in the MMO are the same ones you'll use to play in the Foundry. Think of it like a permanent Server Vault from Neverwinter Nights. As such, there's no way to edit your character outside the means normally provided by Cryptic in the MMO. No giving yourself XP, Gold, or equipment. You can't hand place any of these three things in a Foundry mission.
Now, there are still random item and level-adjusted XP drops from enemies as normal, but it's not really efficient to farm critters for either of those things in STO because they are either a) very random, b) very infrequent, or c) very low. Champions Online is much the same. You're better off playing content than farming critters if you want loot. I don't remember STO having any gold (energy credits) drops off the top of my head, but that's more an issue of style, I'd say. If CO had a Foundry I suspect the critter mobs would still drop gold (resources) as normal. Anything from a loot table you just happen to pick up in the STO Foundry goes with you into the regular MMO areas. Since a player can't rely on it, though, it can't really be exploited unless the loot tables get messed up on Cryptic's end.
The only loot related award in the STO Foundry is a wrapper. It's a mission/quest you can pick up once every 20 real life hours. It gives you more or less the value of a regular Cryptic created mission for completing 3 user created missions. There's a term I hear used called "console clickers" to describe missions with a single objective that can be completed rapidly to help farm the reward wrapper. The 20 hour timer keeps this from being an exploit.
All that being as it is, the STO Foundry situation is far from perfect. There's little in-game incentive to play any Foundry missions except the wrapper, which you only get about once a day. As it stands now the only continual benefit is getting to enjoy other people's creative work, which, of course, is a highly subjective and impossible to quantify reward. I'm hoping NW has some better ways to address this.
Is it obvious? I don't think it is. I've written previously in this thread about the whole continuum: missions created over an hour lunch break to missions that are created over a efew months. My point is that the barrier for entry appears to be low enough to accomodate both extremes.
Also, I don't follow how that's ironic. Not everything that's sold has to do with money. Cryptic and PWE still have to sell people on the idea that NW is a game they want to play.
To add to that point, the devs have commented that they have a "good" ranking system in place for NW foundry missions. Hence good and bad missions can be ranked for benefits.
b:cry
and what they learned in STO.
At launch - 5 man teams max
Later down the road, 20 man areas that are similar to a raid but
are sectioned in parts were players can leave or join at those points.
The players get credit per section.
Guilds - and guild activities
The character levels will prob be broken down into sub levels.
You will not see a 50th lvl DnD characters..but you might see 50 sub levels
There will be Auction House
There will be banks
There will be public areas
There will be gorgous graphics
There will be iconic locations, for main stories and as jumping off
points for UGC user generated content
These are all my best guesses based on what I know from cryptic's prior
work
At launch - 5 man teams max
confirmed by devs
...
The character levels will prob be broken down into sub levels.
No. They are instead using x3 the pnp instead of using 3 sub-levels they initally planned. So 3 lvls=1lvl instead of sublevels
You will not see a 50th lvl DnD characters..but you might see 50 sub levels
At launch 60 lvl (Heroic tier -(1-10pnp) =(1-30game) and paragon - (11-20pnp)=(31-60game) Later epic tier if added would make it max 90 lvls.
...
There will be public areas
confirmed by devs and showed in demos
There will be gorgous graphics
Graphics should run on low end systems with lower requirements than CO or STO but will still be better on high end systems
There will be iconic locations, for main stories and as jumping off
points for UGC user generated content
confirmed by devs. they said interacting barrels though afaik.
========
Some updates for you
I feel like I could give you a thoughtful response, but I'm having a little difficulty understanding what you mean. (That's more commentary on me, not you).
Is your concern that Adventure Packs, Comic Series, and other similar missions are instanced? If that's so, I'm not quite sure how that makes it meaningless. They seem to me like they stand on their own fairly well. Of course, there are several maps in these that I would like to see remain as persistant zones because they're just that neat looking, but I don't understand how their current use is meaningless.
Am I understanding your meaninging correctly or have I misunderstood?
As it has not been replied to, I will try to decode it a bit for you (as I have played CO so I think I grasp it a little).
In CO, there are random missions which give you buffs. There are no items etc. but just as a particular mission states. E.g. (hypothetically as I don't really remember) rescuing a hostage will give you 1 hour buff and any other mission you do, you get 2x XP. Similarly, killing a villian may give you a different buff like getting high tier items more for 1 hour. Etc. These missions are not tied to main story but just "Daily routine" for hero. And all of them have same map.
So it is like, once you have done it one, you have done it all (for a particular mission of X type buff). Just one boss monster may be changed sometimes.
However, as NW is not CO so foundry should be different like those missions. So foundry in NW should be better - to be able to tell an actual story rather than having same kind of maps (i.e. tools enough to tell a story, create twists like monster ambushes and puzzles to make each map different.)
I believe this is what he wanted to say, or rather my interpretation of what he said.
Yeah thats just what i was getting at.
b:thanks
It could be just me, but I felt like the intention of Alerts being quick and dirty micro-stories of super heroes beating up super villians was pretty clear. They're certainly not Resistance or Aftershock, but I don't feel like they're trying to fill that niche either.
Somewhat related to this, I've read/listened to many discussion in the STO Foundry community on what constitutes a mission. It's a big, open, unanswerable question, because as it presently stands authors can make quick and dirty Alert-type content that draws an audience. And they can also make big story pieces that draw a different audience. What I think the community is finding is that these are both valid uses of the Foundry. Maybe I don't like "kill x critter group for accolades" content so much, but that just means I play something else.
As to the original topic, I don't think this kind of Foundry stuff is going to greatly affect gear inflation in NW if they do things like STO. In fact, STO's completely locked down when it comes to authors giving players gear. I'm personally hoping there are systems in place to open the dam up just a little bit, let us put a thing or two in a Foundry mission for players in NW.
I think they are opening the dam. I am not sure, but a few months ago, I had a feeling that devs had said some stuff about foundry - like giving rewards to players - nothing concrete but subtle hints. But in all this time, those info may be buried in some obscure video somewhere.
I also think that some dev was specifically asked if there will be some kinds of monetary benefits but devs replied like, there would be some benefits but never said yes or no ... I am curious myself now. I will look into it tommorrow and comment more concretely with facts of their statement rather than my aging memory.
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Even andy says here, that D&D is not about end-game but also about cheeky things too. I believe a lot of people will agree. Though some people may not. But the point is, while making the game devs are not keeping only end-game content in mind. So you can be happy about it.
:-)
Great reminder, I'd forgotten about that video! Thanks.
Although, Andy actually says epic, not end-game. He says it at around the 01:11 marker.
isn't just about the epic
Just pointing that out.
Yeah you are right, but it made me remember a funny conversation on forums a few months ago:-
the-truthseeker: it's OK, I didn't saw right now!
silverspar: *imagines truth using a saw to try and saw out right now....* How the hell does that work?
the-truthseeker: Smart-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> (corrects typo)
silverspar: I am a D&D player. That automatically confirms that without any qualifications
No raids, no long term player base.
You may have a different definition of 'raids' than I do but when I think of WoW style raids I think 10-20 (40+) players who barely know each other wacking away at one creature.
If Cryptic added such a feature to the game you should expect most actual D&D players (their main target audience) to be put off playing this game because WoW style raids is everything D&D is not.
There should be plenty of dungeons to delve and bosses to kill...and you *could* label some of those raids.
But I'd be sorely disappointed to see WoW style raids implemented to the game as a major aspect to the gameplay.
You're free to your opinion and honestly I wouldn't even mind if it was a small side-event which gave good, yet not the best, rewards but just because other MMO's have and promote certain content as a main attraction doesn't mean that's what the players are looking for.
To me this is a D&D Game first and MMO second. If I wanted to play another MMO game I'd be there right now.
I respect your view and somewhat share it, I too would like to see something more than your average WoW-ish idea of endgame, personally I would like lore and character development to define this game more than anything else.
The game will have the foundry so im sure there will be lots of dungeon delves made, to avoid this.
Some people are over the sterotypical mmo grind for t1gear, to get t2, to then get t3, so some can play a panda with a bo-stick to keep the need for that style of gameplay. The GW2 system seems to work, and they are going ok.
PVP has delayed release of this game, so id be seeing a PVP element that will be pleasing for some.
IS there confirmation that 5man is the go, i still thought this would be decided after a closed beta, as i believe information left the party size min of 5 but experimentation was still needed.
PvP will be released with the game now but the game wasn't delayed because of PvP. Not sure exactly if you were saying that or not but there's quite a bit to still be done beyond Pv development which caused the release delay. The delay simply fit with the schedule of the PvP development as far as we know.
Eeek no! There's no five man minimum. In fact the minimum is one player but there are some dungeons designed by Cryptic and eventually players which will require more.
In earlier interviews they spoke about 5 man teams as being the harder group content. I'm not sure if they stuck with this as a maximum because even I would like to see a slightly higher maximum part size but by no means did they say you needed 5 people minimum to play!
Eek...as if talking about raids wasn't going far enough out of my gaming comfort zone you scare me with five man group minimums! Haha ;-)
That is my hope as well I assure you. To me I find that the more players you throw in one group the more of a hack and slash game you develop. 40+ people killing one boss can't have much of a story unless you're defending a city or avoiding some other major catastrophic event.
So consider that food for thought, do other games with such large raids have any claim for great storylines behind these raids?
To me you can't have your cake and eat it too. I can't fathom a raid which would fit into my idea of a D&D persistent storyline without inherently damaging the story.
Sorry should have IMO'd that from watching the videos, that craig mentioned pvp launching with game come early 2013, prior game was launching late 2012 with pvp to come early 2013. i understand that there is alot more work to be done, i will endeavour to elaborate more next time.
Apologies i meant for dungeon delving that 5 man would be the min hence the thread title Raids and the quote i was quoting to, sorry i left this open.
5-man groupings are the max. There are no raids in NW in the sense of large group (more then 5) content.
My take on this it that its still not 100% that 5man will be the set party limit, i think it was a video where Andy stated that they were still looking at the party size.
searching....
b:shocked I could only see it now for 50m raids. Hours to farm to fill raid slots. Checking people gear see they're right for a job. Minutes on trying to wake people up from AFKing. Getting 50 people on a VoIP and trying to figure who hasnt join. Trying to get 50m raid to work as a team. Then people screaming, trolling, nerd rages in voip of 50 people b:beatup .
How the raid will go down who knows but i'll bet most of these 50m raids would turn out like this. 40% of the raid standing in fire or loving a cleave to the face. 10% of the raid is AFK. 20% of the raid is attacking the wrong target. 30% of the raid actualy doing their job.
Out of that whole 50m EPIC raid you wanted only thing you got from it was to see the first boss and people nerd rage quit from the first wipe.
I dont mind raids but with limit of 10\20\25(I even think 25 is little big)
Now u are scaring me
I understand some people would like to play solo and i agree there should be some options for those persons but neverwinter is a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Play Game and im expecting this will be mostly a team game like Dungeons & Dragons is .
About what filsman said, he actually have a point. Ofc Foundry will gave us almost endless content but cryptic should becarefull if they are thinking foundry will fill the players desire of end game content, its not only about content its about how many features will be available for people to have fun at lvl 60. I speak for myself ofc but as soon i get level 60 i wont be playing for 2 years if the only thing i can do is playing foundry content and even from time to time cryptic content, that just not enough (at least for me.)
What should be those features, well i think a lot of people already gave toons of great ideas in the forums.
About Raids.... well raids could be an option in my opinion but it shouldnt be the only thing to do (thats why i quit wow actually) but i dont see how criptic will losse players if its just one of many other end game features options. About the gear... well 5 man delves could give better loot than a raid but it also should be much more harder.
I dont think finding people on a single server would be much of an issue in this game.