iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2012
There seems to be some confusion on how D&D works, how this MMO will work and how the end of a story-arc section Dungeon Delve will work. Based on the released info we have so far, I will attempt to explain:
While the progenitor (or cause) of most to perhaps all MMO's created, D&D does not (ironically) follow the large-person grouping of late-game adventuring. D&D is a game based on multiple players grouping together in small party groups of 3-6 people (3-5 in 4th ed which this game is based on.) While there will be open areas where many people can fight and explore the lands at once far beyond 5 (or 6) people, when one does dungeons and groups up for party adventures in special missions, you go into a group of 3-5. This also is true when you complete the mission story-arc chapter and get to do an end of story special challenge called a "dungeon delve." These repeatable quests are done by the same group number of 3-5 people and are finish-able in about an hour's time, instead of the long setup and execution of hours for the 20-person raid of other MMO's. This decision was done so that "casual gamers" who finish a "chapter" in a campaign can also get access to "mah phat lewtz" as Andy put it. For better or for worse, the quick option for casual was done instead of the long setup and having a Leroy Jenkins fail rage-quit moment.
Will thee be RAIDS in this Neverwinter Online MMO Game?
Yes and no. Yes, there will be multiplayer escalated challenge "delves" at the end of each "chapter" or "story-arc" segment that drops "the best loot" for the players, but no, it's not like a typical RAID.
The Delve is a multi-player chalenge for up to five players and is repeatable (so if you didn't get what you wanted, you can try again,) and is finish-able in about an hour's time. Cryptic and Perfect World understand the needs of all gamers when it comes to both skill and time allotted to play a session, and took the hours of setup and prep just to "start" out of this equation, without taking away the skills and challenges needed. Or, as (colorfully) said by ANdy Valasquez in an MMORPG Interview,
Andy Velasquez: Personally I feel like our Dungeon Delves are huge improvement over the overall raiding experience that I have personally experienced playing MMOs. When I think about what I loved during my time raiding in other MMO?s it was always the joy of getting mah phat lewtz and the challenge of taking down interesting content with my buddies. What I hated was the slog that almost always came with it.
Our Dungeon Delves are still the places where you will be going to get your phat lewt. They are still where you will find the some of the most interesting bosses, monsters and locations Neverwinter has to offer and you are your friends will be challenged to take down all of the content in them. Yet they are meant to be shorter less grindy affairs than traditional MMO raids
Yeah yeah yeah, let's get to the important question: How will I get my Party treasure here? Will it be random or rewarded to everybody?
Here's where we learned something cool about Neverwinter's loot system when partied. She dropped something for everyone, stuff that no one but you can loot, and she also spawned a chest that we all had to roll on. Andy told us that the idea is for everyone to get something from their hard work in a dungeon, but they also want that traditional sense of "Oh, what's in the chest?!?" that has long been a hallmark of both D&D and MMORPGs.
(Note: These answers will be updated as we receive new information.)
Yes possible not the game to play if you want large raids. And after doing EQ and WOW I am not sure now I want to put in the time and effort now that raiding at a high level required.
That said one thing I liked was "scripted" events where many many player could play with or against each other. This was like 2 factions fighting it out and you help one. Or an invasion of the undead, which the bridge battle looks like kinda. That is fun, but large raids .. no thanks.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am not evil, I am just cursed.
There seems to be some confusion on how D&D works, how this MMO will work and how the end of a story-arc section Dungeon Delve will work. Based on the released info we have so far, I will attempt to explain:
While the progenitor (or cause) of most to perhaps all MMO's created, D&D does not (ironically) follow the large-person grouping of late-game adventuring. D&D is a game based on multiple players grouping together in small party groups of 3-6 people (3-5 in 4th ed which this game is based on.) While there will be open areas where many people can fight and explore the lands at once far beyond 5 (or 6) people, when one does dungeons and groups up for party adventures in special missions, you go into a group of 3-5. This also is true when you complete the mission story-arc chapter and get to do an end of story special challenge called a "dungeon delve." These repeatable quests are done by the same group number of 3-5 people and are finish-able in about an hour's time, instead of the long setup and execution of hours for the 20-person raid of other MMO's. This decision was done so that "casual gamers" who finish a "chapter" in a campaign can also get access to "mah phat lewtz" as Andy put it. For better or for worse, the quick option for casual was done instead of the long setup and having a Leroy Jenkins fail rage-quit moment.
Thanks for the explanation but i knew that already when i did my post (im a forum user for a looooong time), maybe u guys miss my point or i didnt explain myself well. Im also a pnp player for 15 years or so, so im a bit familiar with D&D aswell
Like i said in my earlier post i play MMO's with my irl friends so im rly expecting that the major content of the game can be done as a group (not only delves)
As for raids i also wouldnt like neverwinter to be as the "typical" MMO's where raids is the main focus at the end game, i was just saying if they implemented raids they shouldnt work like typical MMO's but why not making them part of the end game content ? (when i said raids i mean 10,20 or 40 man raids, i dont consider 5 man as a raid)
Im just affraid that i want to play cryptic content or the story arc with my friends and the game wont allow me to do that.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2012
I see thanks for clearing that up. Sorry for the parts I didn't get there.
However, I don't see D&D based games as a 20-40 player setup. That only works in battle royal things. However, I'd love to be proven wrong on this too.
Yeah I think we're just having a major communication issue here macabrivs because, as I read it, you're using different words for the same preference I have.
Just to quickly blurt out the meaning of my previous posts:
-I stated Cryptic claims they want to support both the solo player and 5 man teams. I didn't say the game will/should be a solo game.
-I personally am not a fan of raids in the WoW sense but I am not fully against them being put into the game. I merely said they don't fit into D&D or story orientated games well. I'd love to be proven wrong!
-If raids were included they should be 'side-content' sort of like PvP. Optional entertainment with adequate rewards but not the end game that other MMO's promote.
-To me delves are basically treasure hunts. I am just using this to describe foundry 'quests' with little to no story.
As for the topic of post level 60. I don't look at any D&D Game as 'this is the end game.'
To me D&D is about the journey, not the end. After I get tired of being level 60 with one character I'd treat that as a sign try out different classes or refine classes with different/new features. I don't view the game as a 1-60 game so I really can't relate to needing something to do after level 60.
As for not being able to play with friends, this is a problem I have had in game after game. I find I either have too many or too few friends at any given time.
Rune scape's Dungeoneering skill was atrocious. They built a system that said if you have less than 5 you all lose experience, if you have more than 5 somebody gets shafted. It made it impossible to truly enjoy the content.
League of Legends is similar in a way as well. If you don't have a full group the rule is: the random's ALWAYS suck. If you have a full group you tend to have to pick and choose favorites amongst your friends. 'John just got on and he's better than you, toodles!'
That's why I would prefer NW to be 1-8. I just find that while I play games I tend to want to play with 3-4 players, but in an effort to maintain 3-4 players at all times I end up with frequent fits of 6-8.
And at the very least if a group gets beyond eight typically it's fairly easy to split up.
Let me know if that makes things a bit clearer. From what I read of your posts it seems like you want something at least similar.
As for the topic of post level 60. I don't look at any D&D Game as 'this is the end game.'
To me D&D is about the journey, not the end. After I get tired of being level 60 with one character I'd treat that as a sign try out different classes or refine classes with different/new features. I don't view the game as a 1-60 game so I really can't relate to needing something to do after level 60.
Yeah, think thats where our opinion "colide", i know the original pnp D&D is about adventure with our group and when/if we reach max lvl, which will finish the campaign, we just start a new one with new characters etc....
But theres the MMO part of the game aswell, i played WoW for 3 years or so and i always played with the same character (priest) no alts or other character in other servers, thats just how i play MMO's. And thats the reason im rly concerned about the end game, i know foundry will give us almost endless content to play but i dont think that will be enough for me to keep playing the game for a longg time. Thats why i metion about raids, not as the major end game feature but can be one of many end game features.
Dont get me wrong, im not a raid defender, thats actually what made me quit of WoW... raids.... raids... and more raids.... i rly lost interesse in that end game feature coz, well was the only thing to do anyways
So for me i dont mind if raids is in Neverwinter but i also dont mind at all if they are not implemented, i was just metion about raids coz it could add some end game content if we also have much more other end game features aswell.
PS:Sry, my main language is not inglish so sometimes i may not express myself as i like.
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neily2ndMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Neverwinter not having raids and not having party size of more than 5 in the foundry is such a loss. The reason so many people have fond memories of WoW is because of the epic feel that killing a large boss with a big group of people (10man or more), no-one has any fond memories of doing 5 man content in any game because it just feels so small.
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enoxobusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
They have already told that the instances will be for 5-man parties... besides, 50-man raids just ain't what D&D is about. They ain't what MMORPGs are about for that matter - they just come up a lot nowadays because they were popularised by WoW. And tbh, huge instanced dungeons with lots of people is just not a good idea - 3-4 hours spent in a single instance is 3-4 times more than I'm willing to spend in a single instance (hell, the 1 hour average they expect them to last here is already too long for me, when I'm used to FW, where you'd often have instances last less than 15 minutes) and 50 people on screen just makes it 3-4 hours of lagfest on top of that.
No, raids should stay the hell away from this game...
Also, as long as there is a properly designed binding system, gear inflation cannot exist...
I guess if WoW was your first MMO this is what you would believe (assume). However large raids have been a staple of MMO's since early on. My first MMO was Everquest during its heyday 2002-2004, although many believe this time frame worse than early but it seems to me like everyone generally say they prefer the earlier days to a good MMO rather than later (this has been happening in WoW since around Lich King) probably has to do with the wonder/awe/excitement of the game being new and good. Anyway my point is that EQ had Large Raids of 54 much larger than the raids WoW had during Vanilla and actually they still do have Raids that need close to that many players. I hope that this game does have Raids because I have yet to find a game that has been able to hold my interest like EQ from 2002-2004 and WoW from 2004-2007 that didn't have large Raids. Maybe I am just a one percenter in the MMO genre that is hardcore progression and MMO's without raids generally don't have good challenging progression.
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Neverwinter not having raids and not having party size of more than 5 in the foundry is such a loss. The reason so many people have fond memories of WoW is because of the epic feel that killing a large boss with a big group of people (10man or more), no-one has any fond memories of doing 5 man content in any game because it just feels so small.
Well I got some happy news for you. Obviously I am GURU on this subject. This video is from the first Beta Event an my comments copy/pasted from another forum:
"
This is a sweet moment for me. A news that I LOVE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeicfJGm-k8&feature=youtu.be Skip to 3.57... RAIDS ARE CONFIRMED! WOHOO! YEEEEEES! However we still don't know how hardcore this game is in loot policy. To say it is even near as hardcore in loot system as WOW is guessing and that has not been proved. However developers have said that this game has ENDGAME and now it is confirmed that RAIDS will be released sooner or later after release.I have no idea how big raids that is unknown... 10 maybe, but that is a wild guess.
" Facts: A. There will be no Raids at the release. B. This game will certainly have Raids and developers have already started working on them. C. Don't hold your breath for quick release of Raids. Raids might be released many months or even a year after the release. Well that is my guess but hey Raids could released even 2 years after the release and still Cryptic would keep their promise. D. Exact raid size is unknown. I am satisfied already by a group of 10(players)+their NPC companions.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited March 2013
*the old mage casts a control undead spell upon the necromantically risen thread and commands it back to rest*
Comments
While the progenitor (or cause) of most to perhaps all MMO's created, D&D does not (ironically) follow the large-person grouping of late-game adventuring. D&D is a game based on multiple players grouping together in small party groups of 3-6 people (3-5 in 4th ed which this game is based on.) While there will be open areas where many people can fight and explore the lands at once far beyond 5 (or 6) people, when one does dungeons and groups up for party adventures in special missions, you go into a group of 3-5. This also is true when you complete the mission story-arc chapter and get to do an end of story special challenge called a "dungeon delve." These repeatable quests are done by the same group number of 3-5 people and are finish-able in about an hour's time, instead of the long setup and execution of hours for the 20-person raid of other MMO's. This decision was done so that "casual gamers" who finish a "chapter" in a campaign can also get access to "mah phat lewtz" as Andy put it. For better or for worse, the quick option for casual was done instead of the long setup and having a Leroy Jenkins fail rage-quit moment.
I'll re-quote this also from my FAQ:
That said one thing I liked was "scripted" events where many many player could play with or against each other. This was like 2 factions fighting it out and you help one. Or an invasion of the undead, which the bridge battle looks like kinda. That is fun, but large raids .. no thanks.
Thanks for the explanation but i knew that already when i did my post (im a forum user for a looooong time), maybe u guys miss my point or i didnt explain myself well. Im also a pnp player for 15 years or so, so im a bit familiar with D&D aswell
Like i said in my earlier post i play MMO's with my irl friends so im rly expecting that the major content of the game can be done as a group (not only delves)
As for raids i also wouldnt like neverwinter to be as the "typical" MMO's where raids is the main focus at the end game, i was just saying if they implemented raids they shouldnt work like typical MMO's but why not making them part of the end game content ? (when i said raids i mean 10,20 or 40 man raids, i dont consider 5 man as a raid)
Im just affraid that i want to play cryptic content or the story arc with my friends and the game wont allow me to do that.
However, I don't see D&D based games as a 20-40 player setup. That only works in battle royal things. However, I'd love to be proven wrong on this too.
Yeah I think we're just having a major communication issue here macabrivs because, as I read it, you're using different words for the same preference I have.
Just to quickly blurt out the meaning of my previous posts:
-I stated Cryptic claims they want to support both the solo player and 5 man teams. I didn't say the game will/should be a solo game.
-I personally am not a fan of raids in the WoW sense but I am not fully against them being put into the game. I merely said they don't fit into D&D or story orientated games well. I'd love to be proven wrong!
-If raids were included they should be 'side-content' sort of like PvP. Optional entertainment with adequate rewards but not the end game that other MMO's promote.
-To me delves are basically treasure hunts. I am just using this to describe foundry 'quests' with little to no story.
As for the topic of post level 60. I don't look at any D&D Game as 'this is the end game.'
To me D&D is about the journey, not the end. After I get tired of being level 60 with one character I'd treat that as a sign try out different classes or refine classes with different/new features. I don't view the game as a 1-60 game so I really can't relate to needing something to do after level 60.
As for not being able to play with friends, this is a problem I have had in game after game. I find I either have too many or too few friends at any given time.
Rune scape's Dungeoneering skill was atrocious. They built a system that said if you have less than 5 you all lose experience, if you have more than 5 somebody gets shafted. It made it impossible to truly enjoy the content.
League of Legends is similar in a way as well. If you don't have a full group the rule is: the random's ALWAYS suck. If you have a full group you tend to have to pick and choose favorites amongst your friends. 'John just got on and he's better than you, toodles!'
That's why I would prefer NW to be 1-8. I just find that while I play games I tend to want to play with 3-4 players, but in an effort to maintain 3-4 players at all times I end up with frequent fits of 6-8.
And at the very least if a group gets beyond eight typically it's fairly easy to split up.
Let me know if that makes things a bit clearer. From what I read of your posts it seems like you want something at least similar.
Yeah, think thats where our opinion "colide", i know the original pnp D&D is about adventure with our group and when/if we reach max lvl, which will finish the campaign, we just start a new one with new characters etc....
But theres the MMO part of the game aswell, i played WoW for 3 years or so and i always played with the same character (priest) no alts or other character in other servers, thats just how i play MMO's. And thats the reason im rly concerned about the end game, i know foundry will give us almost endless content to play but i dont think that will be enough for me to keep playing the game for a longg time. Thats why i metion about raids, not as the major end game feature but can be one of many end game features.
Dont get me wrong, im not a raid defender, thats actually what made me quit of WoW... raids.... raids... and more raids.... i rly lost interesse in that end game feature coz, well was the only thing to do anyways
So for me i dont mind if raids is in Neverwinter but i also dont mind at all if they are not implemented, i was just metion about raids coz it could add some end game content if we also have much more other end game features aswell.
PS:Sry, my main language is not inglish so sometimes i may not express myself as i like.
I guess if WoW was your first MMO this is what you would believe (assume). However large raids have been a staple of MMO's since early on. My first MMO was Everquest during its heyday 2002-2004, although many believe this time frame worse than early but it seems to me like everyone generally say they prefer the earlier days to a good MMO rather than later (this has been happening in WoW since around Lich King) probably has to do with the wonder/awe/excitement of the game being new and good. Anyway my point is that EQ had Large Raids of 54 much larger than the raids WoW had during Vanilla and actually they still do have Raids that need close to that many players. I hope that this game does have Raids because I have yet to find a game that has been able to hold my interest like EQ from 2002-2004 and WoW from 2004-2007 that didn't have large Raids. Maybe I am just a one percenter in the MMO genre that is hardcore progression and MMO's without raids generally don't have good challenging progression.
Well I got some happy news for you. Obviously I am GURU on this subject. This video is from the first Beta Event an my comments copy/pasted from another forum:
"
This is a sweet moment for me. A news that I LOVE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeicfJGm-k8&feature=youtu.be
Skip to 3.57... RAIDS ARE CONFIRMED! WOHOO! YEEEEEES! However we still don't know how hardcore this game is in loot policy. To say it is even near as hardcore in loot system as WOW is guessing and that has not been proved. However developers have said that this game has ENDGAME and now it is confirmed that RAIDS will be released sooner or later after release. I have no idea how big raids that is unknown... 10 maybe, but that is a wild guess.
"
Facts:
A. There will be no Raids at the release.
B. This game will certainly have Raids and developers have already started working on them.
C. Don't hold your breath for quick release of Raids. Raids might be released many months or even a year after the release. Well that is my guess but hey Raids could released even 2 years after the release and still Cryptic would keep their promise.
D. Exact raid size is unknown. I am satisfied already by a group of 10(players)+their NPC companions.
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