I want a shocking end - something which is... shocking. Something like this.
A little confusing since MMO's don't really have an "end," but I would like an interesting story for the quest part of the game. Due to the lore carefully controlled and approved by Wizards, understand that controversy is most likely out, but a rich history-themed plot is in.
But how this links to raids and gear is still not clear. You might want to discuss that in this thread instead.
Whenever they have to pull the plug on the game, it is good to go with a bang. So instead of taking the server down and (hopefully) before releasing another new neverwinter game, they should have a massive PvP where everyone kills everyone and thus have fun one last time before world ends in some cataclysm.
It will be the last most massive pvp raid for everyone - they can unleash all the big monsters to destroy the world - no one would really care about gear as end is inevitable. The world can be sustained for a last few days depending on efforts of players or can be wiped out in a few minutes is no one is fighting. This will increase profits even when pulling the plug (as it would be something different).
After the kill fest is over, they can start their new series with a (probably) 5e world.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Whenever they have to pull the plug on the game, it is good to go with a bang. So instead of taking the server down and (hopefully) before releasing another new neverwinter game, they should have a massive PvP where everyone kills everyone and thus have fun one last time before world ends in some cataclysm.
It will be the last most massive pvp raid for everyone - they can unleash all the big monsters to destroy the world - no one would really care about gear as end is inevitable. The world can be sustained for a last few days depending on efforts of players or can be wiped out in a few minutes is no one is fighting. This will increase profits even when pulling the plug (as it would be something different).
After the kill fest is over, they can start their new series with a (probably) 5e world.
Oh, I've done that (when games that had this option, few as they were) before the transition from Beta-Stress-Testing to the live wipe (where everybody is L1 for the brand new MMO) battle royale, and it is truly AMAZING.
It has also actually been done that way in some MMO's at their EoL (end of life) just before shutting down...that also is amazing and sad, literally fighting everything as the world ends.
elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2012
The loot system is not likely the everlasting WOW lootmill but neither is it the casual carebear ridiculous loot system of Guild Wars 2.
They said in E3 that everybody gets rewarded with something useful, but there is a chest with random content and everybody gets to roll for it. So loot is not 100% even and it is random factor. Expect to do Dungeons multiple times.
They also said people want to gear to acces future content. What that future content is a Mysterium.
My guess future content could be:
1. Raid
2. Expansion
3. Some kind of Hard or Heroic mode of a Dungeon.
4. New harder Dungeons
5. Something else
I don't necessary need WOW everlasting loot mill but I like more the philosophy that you have to explore like 95 % of the World (like in Neverwinter Nights) before you hit any poweplateau in both level and items. In Guild Wars 2 you likely hit powerplateau already when you have explored like 10-20% which is annoying for me. Anyway actually I can see the logic with WOW and not criticicing that system.
That said in this game we have the FOUNDRY. However my experience from NWN1 tells me that people release good adventures it will be likely be 2014+. It is not fast to create an adventure thought of course somebody could split the adventure into multiple smaller instance releases.
I like to go back to the playstation commercial where the kid is complaining about his grandma takin over his toy. The commentator is like "all she had to play with was a STICK"! and he just keeps repeating it every time the kid tries to make a point. Funny as hell!
When I came up in M59 thats barely all we had...Same with DSO, and some other games. You know what kept me going back and why those games are STILL around with a core of dedicated players? You never out leveled your gear! Yea you could get better gear, but you never were obliged to get the "Uber Sword of NIght MooOOOn Slaying" because you would be dead all the time at tenth level if you didnt have one. Having the skill of PLAYING the game, working together to achieve a goal,and having fun while doing it... thats what I remember! Besides, I really dont want to go down the road of wash-rinse-and repeat loot runs of DDO ..
When i post my idea of a custom dungeon, it will most certainly be a lvl 1 run for new characters. No imported gear will be usable. I am sure there will be high level dungeons for those who want them, but it's not the kind of game i want to play. Cryptic might publish a few model runs for modders to work out on, but my believe is they will focus on maintaining the game mechanics, keeping bugs off and more. They originally didn't plan to have a campaign in it at all iirc.
mke
b:bye
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I will imediatly run from games like DDO's loot runs even xp runs when TR. Its just too bad.....
Yeah you can run to Guild Wars 2 for all I care. This is not going to be the casual carebear game that GW2 is. Likely not so hardcore loot system as WOW though. The only reason I even consider Guild Wars 2 is due to the PvP.
When i post my idea of a custom dungeon, it will most certainly be a lvl 1 run for new characters. No imported gear will be usable. I am sure there will be high level dungeons for those who want them, but it's not the kind of game i want to play. Cryptic might publish a few model runs for modders to work out on, but my believe is they will focus on maintaining the game mechanics, keeping bugs off and more. They originally didn't plan to have a campaign in it at all iirc.
mke
b:bye
This. If you don't like Cryptic endgame then enjoy what other people do using FOUNDRY.
I don't mind low level adventures. In fact I would like to play many example (in DD levels) level 1-10 adventures. If I have understood correctly the game multiply with 3 levels and there are max level 60 so in DD terms max level is 20. I am fine with that and I don't need to play some halfgod.
You confuse a bit don't you remember old Neverwinter Nights? You had to explore at least 95% of the World before hitting any possible max level. Most user created adventures what was in Neverwinter Nights were low-mid level.
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aavariusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
That said in this game we have the FOUNDRY. However my experience from NWN1 tells me that people release good adventures it will be likely be 2014+. It is not fast to create an adventure thought of course somebody could split the adventure into multiple smaller instance releases.
I suspect NW's foundry will be more robust, but if the productivity flow is similar to STO's foundry, then you can have something basic in 30 minutes to 1 hour. Given a hard deadline a diligent author can have something really nice in 4 weeks to 6 weeks (that's the present production time for the STO Foundry challenges). An author that doesn't get to log on frequently (or that does get to log on frequently but is being extra meticulous) can author a really polished story in 2 months. That's been my experience.
An author that's very familiar with the limitations of the tools could reduce these numbers by weeks at a time.
The issue seems to be that the amount of work needed to build an appealing campaign from scratch (and i mean appealing to a wider audience) takes more than just casual involvement by the author(s). You want side quests, explorable areas, maybe class specific puzzles. The world might want to be believable and lively. Roleplaying, crafting, the whole paraphernalia. A linear storyline is much faster to develop, simple and straightforward. I have seen mods that only had 1 area (the arena)! Its just not my idea of a game that can really hold my attention for a long time (i.e. years).
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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callifrostMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2012
I just hope that people aren't allowed to 'choose' what kind of treasure drops in their creations and that it's completely random or at least mostly random.
Running the dungeon once or twice killing a weak boss and getting great treasures for it is lame.
I just hope that people aren't allowed to 'choose' what kind of treasure drops in their creations and that it's completely random or at least mostly random.
Running the dungeon once or twice killing a weak boss and getting great treasures for it is lame.
I share my opinion in this regard with you. Also, a question was asked to devs at E3 in an interview - that potentially the foundry campaigns can be used to run for a particular gear etc. which will unfairly bring imbalance and boredom. But it seems that devs have some safeguards in place against that.
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I suspect NW's foundry will be more robust, but if the productivity flow is similar to STO's foundry, then you can have something basic in 30 minutes to 1 hour. Given a hard deadline a diligent author can have something really nice in 4 weeks to 6 weeks (that's the present production time for the STO Foundry challenges). An author that doesn't get to log on frequently (or that does get to log on frequently but is being extra meticulous) can author a really polished story in 2 months. That's been my experience.
An author that's very familiar with the limitations of the tools could reduce these numbers by weeks at a time.
You are far to optimistic. This is not an simple think about story/create. In my experience bug fixing is a huge thing and I am not interested to play some Alpha/Beta version. Do you even know what thrash was released the first year after NWN1 was released? Alpha version which were completely unplayable.
Best NWN1 adventures were "Dark Waters" author... and it took over a year for one BIG module!
The issue seems to be that the amount of work needed to build an appealing campaign from scratch (and i mean appealing to a wider audience) takes more than just casual involvement by the author(s). You want side quests, explorable areas, maybe class specific puzzles. The world might want to be believable and lively. Roleplaying, crafting, the whole paraphernalia. A linear storyline is much faster to develop, simple and straightforward. I have seen mods that only had 1 area (the arena)! Its just not my idea of a game that can really hold my attention for a long time (i.e. years).
Well said. Yes a short adventure like go into the cave defeat the Dragon and if succeed then end is typical in beginning. There will be of course ALPHA and BETA versions, but I will skip them. I might play a Beta version only if it says almost finished and playable in description.
Before really good adventures(and longer then go into Cave defeat Dragon!) comes out I believe it will be 2014+. Yes a very short module of linear can be released before that but I prefer in those cases if there are a few short modules to play them as a linear longer story.
Community will get better at creating, but if it is like in NWN1 then bugfixing will always take a very long time. I rather play one really good adventure then 10 bad/average adventures.
EDIT! That said IF Cryptic makes a guide like this to Neverwinter, then it will speed a lot the process:) http://www.stowiki.org/GuideGDN_The_Foundry
Anyway I am not interested in short adventures.
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aavariusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
You are far to optimistic. This is not an simple think about story/create. In my experience bug fixing is a huge thing and I am not interested to play some Alpha/Beta version. Do you even know what thrash was released the first year after NWN1 was released? Alpha version which were completely unplayable.
Best NWN1 adventures were "Dark Waters" author... and it took over a year for one BIG module!
Since you asked, yes, I am aware. It took people time to learn the Aurora Toolset. As a STO Foundry author and a former Aurora Toolset user myself I can already see that the learning curve isn't nearly as drastic. I believe you're being unnecessarily picky.
Additionally, I gave some real examples of production time I've witnessed from a beta version of the Foundry in live game environment. I'll be the first to tell you that STO's Foundry isn't all rainbows and puppy dogs, but you'd be surprised at the amazing things authors have created despite the limitations. Working under the assumption that in the meantime the Neverwinter team has improved upon the Foundry since it was put into STO (it's supposed to be a big selling point for NW after all), then I don't see how those production times are overly optimistic.
It took people time to learn the Aurora Toolset. As a STO Foundry author and a former Aurora Toolset user myself I can already see that the learning curve isn't nearly as drastic.
I, not knowing the STO foundry and assuming it to be similar to what we are about to get in NW, consider the balance and bug issues mentioned above to be valid. How did they get around the character editing, item gathering, cash hoarding and not allow it to be imported into the campaign in your experience?
Working under the assumption that in the meantime the Neverwinter team has improved upon the Foundry since it was put into STO (it's supposed to be a big selling point for NW after all), then I don't see how those production times are overly optimistic.
Because what you and I excpect from adventure is obviously different. For me a good adventure is not only go into small Dungeon with 5 players kill some monsters and then done.
Yes there can be short instances, but then I expect a long linear story divided into multiple modules and good story background. It is quite ironic you talk about selling point when game is free.
I, not knowing the STO foundry and assuming it to be similar to what we are about to get in NW, consider the balance and bug issues mentioned above to be valid. How did they get around the character editing, item gathering, cash hoarding and not allow it to be imported into the campaign in your experience?
As I have understood those player created things are all instances for 5 players. Cryptic does not want anything custom made imported to their campaign. It could unbalance the Cryptic Campaign.
All player created stuff should be treated like separate from Cryptic Campaign. Cryptic Campaign has its own level/gear progression system.
It is a disappointment that those features are not allowed into the player made campaign though. The only reasons I can think of:
1. it is a free MMO and it would require more effort to create support for such features.
2. Creating custom armors items etc. would likely increase system requirements slightly.
Because what you and I excpect from adventure is obviously different. For me a good adventure is not only go into small Dungeon with 5 players kill some monsters and then done.
Yes there can be short instances, but then I expect a long linear story divided into multiple modules and good story background. It is quite ironic you talk about selling point when game is free.
As I have understood those player created things are all instances for 5 players. Cryptic does not want anything custom made imported to their campaign. It could unbalance the Cryptic Campaign.
All player created stuff should be treated like separate from Cryptic Campaign. Cryptic Campaign has its own level/gear progression system.
It is a disappointment that those features are not allowed into the player made campaign though. The only reasons I can think of:
1. it is a free MMO and it would require more effort to create support for such features.
2. Creating custom armors items etc. would likely increase system requirements slightly.
Foundry missions are not just 5 person content. There are plenty of solo foundry modules in STO. There are also some Foundry stories that are several modules long. We'll have to see how the foundry is implemented here, but I don't see why it would be different here.
While I understand the desire for player created assets it is not practical for the sake of consistency or the cost of and effort of maintenance. It wouldn't necessarily have to increase system requirements at all since assets could have constraints on size and such.
If everyone could create whatever they wanted willy nilly the whole world would lack consistency and cohesion. I think that would be contrary to what Cryptic would be trying to accomplish in creating a Forgotten Realms game world.
There needs to be 1 epic level serverwide event along the lines of The Sleeper. Just one. Unscaled event at all with cheap <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> loot table, extremely unique tho.
"..putting a gnome on the barbie later, you coming?"
There needs to be 1 epic level serverwide event along the lines of The Sleeper. Just one. Unscaled event at all with cheap <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> loot table, extremely unique tho.
ogh ugh .. OK. Just one then. Maybe someone can even come up with a follow up but somebody else for a change PLEASE
As stated in iamtruthseeker's FAQ (great work, by the by):
Will there be RAIDS in this Neverwinter Online MMO Game?
Yes and no. Yes, there will be multiplayer escalated challenge "delves" at the end of each "chapter" or "story-arc" segment that drops "the best loot" for the players, but no, it's not like a typical RAID.
The Delve is a multi-player chalenge for up to five players and is repeatable (so if you didn't get what you wanted, you can try again,) and is finish-able in about an hour's time. Cryptic and Perfect World understand the needs of all gamers when it comes to both skill and time allotted to play a session, and took the hours of setup and prep just to "start" out of this equation, without taking away the skills and challenges needed.
My problem with this is "up to five players". Neverwinter needs an activity where groups of friends can work together toward a goal. I have more than 4 friends who play together online and there are guilds out there that have been together greater than a decade that will wish to play as a group. Yes, there should be solo content... there should be group content (five players)... and there should be raid content (10, 20, and more). Feel free to set this content up 'to be completed in an hour' but do add it (or state that you plan to add it). Most MMO players expect it and it will be a detraction if they are not present at release or shortly after.
Corollary question; is there a way for more than five people to group together? If so, can one build 'raid' content through the Foundry system? If both are 'yes'; then player built raids might meet community needs. Defend The Keep on the Borderlands? Crusade against the Temple of Elemental Evil? Or lead your army Against the Giants?
Note: I said nothing about loot in regards to raids. Loot, regardless of how you obtained it, should be awarded by level of content. A difficult solo mission shouldn't give an individual player less loot than a difficult group mission or difficult raid. Likewise, a difficult raid shouldn't give better loot than group or solo. It should, perhaps, give more such that when your 10 man group defeats the red dragon at then end of your cave crawl... everybody walks away with something.
Perhaps that would be how you do it... everybody gets a drop according to the level of content they are running. That way the reason to form a multi-group outing is companionship and comradery... not a phat lewt grind.
I have about 300 friend on facebook - does this mean there should be raids like that?
5 ppl on a team is enough for me. It's a classical number of groups in most RPGs.
I have a different idea:
Instead of 10, 20 players raids let there be only 5 ppl raids. However, from time to time a special event may happen. Prepared by devs, an event that will have a huge impact on Neverwinter lore. In such cases, these scenario could be played by more ppl. This, however, would be a special, temprorary case.
50 man raids is not what DnD is about so no and not every MMO player wants huge raids.
Yes there are guilds out there that have tons of players and might want to all play together, but there are other ways. It's an adventure not some strategy game war.
I think 5 man instances is good enough and can bring a lot of fun team-work.
I forgot, is this going to be F2P method? If so you can't always expect full dev produced end game content, the amazing thing about foundry is you create your own end game with heavy dialog roleplay which I'm looking foward to.
I imagine majority of players on Neverwinter is going to be older therefore making it more fun.
I love the fact that this game could require some skill and reflex since every attack and DODGE is going to be manuelly done. I wasn't a fan at first but then I realized it could be really fun. BECAUSE it could take the thunder from those people who just farm all day and have no skill. Also 3 hours just standing there waiting for all 50 people to get on and get ready like pigs to the slaughter is not for me at all.
I dont' think you can have a huge impact on Neverwinter lore unless Wizard of the Coast agrees upon it.
When your group defeats a dragon, the dragon itself shouldn't drop anything unless you can farm his scales and bones...
50 man raids is not what DnD is about so no and not every MMO player wants huge raids....
This game is not what dnd is about as you put it. It is an MMO game based on dnd and is not a copy of pnp campaigns. It is bound to be different as devs have already mentioned in interviews and has been discussed on forums for quite some time.
So you should be open minded in what can or cannot be done.
That said, 50 man raids can fit in well to neverwinter story, e.g. invasion of NW city by Thay, Netehril etc. like a war. So I would say event based raids like that would integrate well. However, devs have already said that there is no large party raids apart from 5(or was that 6?) member parties.
1. Raiding can fit Neverwinter setting, there are many hooks in lore that Cryptic can use to tie the raid to story, although I would prefer something smaller than 50 man (but that's maybe because I' m used to DDO raiding style and have the concept of DnD about small groups succeding on very difficult tasks, and yes I do think that 12 people is still a small group compared to the hordes of monsters they can throw at them )
2. Loot shouldn't necessarily be the best, but I believe it would be better if it were "slightly" above the norm, without going overboard. Of course that's starting from the assumption that the raids are challenging, with puzzles and the such included.
3. Raids and Delves shouldn't be end-game content only. Sure, I'd like to see them at end-game, but also throughout all the leveling journey of my character, to give more options to the players while leveling.
One last thing: even though I agree that raids and delves shouldn't have "super uber extremely powerful" loot, as I said before they should have something interesting for all the playerbase, which isn't only made of storytellers and roleplayers, but also power gamers who enjoy a well built character better. Besides if you feel compelled to get that equipment just because it's the best, then you' re a power gamer too or are just worrying too much of the opinion of elitist-minded players who think your character and your skill as a player aren't good just because it's not equipped as they want. In that case, I feel sorry as you' re not having fun, for that should be the least of your worries.
Now please keep in mind what I wrote is only an opinion and feeling I get, if I am wrongly assuming, do express yourselves.
For my part; and sorry to take this slightly off topic, but I don't want to invalidate any play style regardless of my personal point of views.
Role Play - I don't typically role-play in MMOs. Yes, have to a degree in PnP but none of my regular gaming groups have been comprised of actors, if you understand my meaning. Should heavy RP be an option in NWO? Yes, of course.
Player vs Player - I have enjoyed PvP now and then in MMOs. I actively discourage players in my PnP groups from killing each other; its bad business and often disrupts game flow and can impact friendships. Should PvP be an option in NWO? Yes, of course.
Player vs Environment (solo - single group) - The meat and drink of MMOs and PnP gaming. NWO already promises some of the most robust PvE gaming in an MMO fantasy genre. Which is good!
Crafting - There are many players in MMOs who simply wish to craft. Look to UO, SWG, Vangard, and Horizons (yes, I went there) for prime examples. While I do craft, I am not one of those players... but I do value those that are. The option should be in NWO.
Raids - I have enjoyed raiding in MMOs. I have even seen 'raiding' done in PnP games though, typically, with large numbers of NPCs rather than players. Henchmen, hirelings, soldiers, summoned creatures, charmed minions, constructs, etc are all a part of classic D&D. There are volumes of PnP rules surrounding the topic. Should 'raiding' be an option in NWO? Yes, it should.
By allowing for every play style, you appeal to a wider player base which can only be healthy for the longevity of the game. So, rather than post about what play-style should and should not be in the game; you have the chance now to suggest how each play-style can be implemented in a sensible way. And that's the course that I'd prefer to take. To that end...
Loot rewards should be measured by the level of the character completing the content... not how many did. If one person completes a dungeon, he gets an appropriate level reward. If 100 people (number for example only) complete a 100 man dungeon, they all get an appropriate level reward. As solo, group, and raid completions return equal level rewards, groups and raids become about the people you spend time with rather than the loot you achieve.
On crafting; one should be able to make appropriate level gear from the materials that you can glean at your level. Far too often in MMOs you can not craft your own level gear from craft mats that you, yourself, are able to obtain.
On PvP; this one is more tricky because it is so easily abused. Its one thing to suggest that PvP rewards should be equal to the same level PvE rewards... it's quite another to implement it. Suggestions?
On Role-Play; sorry guys... RP is it's own reward. Can't quantify the activity so can't equate it to PvE, Raids, Crafting, or PvP. At least... that I know of.
I have never been a fan of raids in mmo's which does not mean i do not do them. Many of my guild mates enjoy em and i enjoy gaming with them.
There is no reason that a five man can be as diffiicult as any 20 or 40 man raid.
I personally would like to see very difficult 5 mans where most will fail. Every person in the 5 man will have to be at the top of there game too have a chance to succeed.
I remember my first experience with raiding in Everquest in 1999 and quite frankly the game was not made for them. Lag connection drops etc etc. With wow the raids were more stable but still you had drops and some lag. And quite frankly with a few exceptions i never found them to be that difficult or enjoyable. I always hated the elite trash mobs which had no chance of winning but took time to kill. Why are these orcs in this dungeon elite while most orcs are not?
For the love of my sanity elite mobs should make sence ie dragons, Giants, Lich, vampires etc etc. lower level elite mobs might be Trolls, Minataurs etc etc. An evil necromancer might be a very tough normal mob something to be feared but not something to be o **** a dragon, or storm giant, or Lich.
End game is as important in my mind as any other aspect of the game. A great game with no end game will not be around long. coughs stwor(loved the game up until the end so rolled another toon and one other then quit after 3 months with 3 max level toons). The two games i played the longest were everquest and ****. **** had a great end game which kept me entertained for two years not including the one year alpha and beta. Anyone ever play earth and beyond was a lot of fun but there was no end game. The world was quite small once you explored the last system you were like omg thats it!
I have never been a fan of raids in mmo's which does not mean i do not do them. Many of my guild mates enjoy em and i enjoy gaming with them.
There is no reason that a five man can be as diffiicult as any 20 or 40 man raid.
I personally would like to see very difficult 5 mans where most will fail. Every person in the 5 man will have to be at the top of there game too have a chance to succeed.
I remember my first experience with raiding in Everquest in 1999 and quite frankly the game was not made for them. Lag connection drops etc etc. With wow the raids were more stable but still you had drops and some lag. And quite frankly with a few exceptions i never found them to be that difficult or enjoyable. I always hated the elite trash mobs which had no chance of winning but took time to kill. Why are these orcs in this dungeon elite while most orcs are not?
For the love of my sanity elite mobs should make sence ie dragons, Giants, Lich, vampires etc etc. lower level elite mobs might be Trolls, Minataurs etc etc. An evil necromancer might be a very tough normal mob something to be feared but not something to be o **** a dragon, or storm giant, or Lich.
End game is as important in my mind as any other aspect of the game. A great game with no end game will not be around long. coughs stwor(loved the game up until the end so rolled another toon and one other then quit after 3 months with 3 max level toonsyed the longest were everquest and ****. **** had a great end game which kept me entertai). The two games i planed for two years not including the one year alpha and beta. Anyone ever play earth and beyond was a lot of fun but there was no end game. The world was quite small once you explored the last system you were like omg thats it!
Actually 5 man content can easily be just as difficulty if not more difficult than 20 or 40 man content. 5 man content relies on everyone to pull their own weight as long as they don't allow gear being able to trivialize content. 5 man allows less mistakes than 20 or 40 man content where the 20-40 man stuff allows people's dead weight being pulled around. Problem with 5 man difficulty is the nerfs, people are screaming that GW2 dungeons is ohhh soooo hard even though they are not suppose to be plowing through the content at that lvl nor with the lack of gear.
Difficulty isn't an issue. You can make any content difficult. For me it will ever be about the ability to have the option to play with more than four friends at a time.
Loot brings up Auction Houses, game balance, and item inflation. And some of what I've read indicates that Coptic will be locking down loot availability. If they aren't letting Foundry mods. even choose the specific loot from chests, then we can project that crafting is out too.
This is where mmo and PnP really struggle. PnP has items that matter to the story, and items that matter to the characters. MMOs don't because you can't have 50 Eyes of Vecna on the Auction House. There are also complications to introducing unique loot because it can screw game balance. If everybody has it, it's not very powerful anymore.
DDO has done a reasonably good job by creating massive amounts of random loot types with the their randomly applied prefix and suffix slots. This meant that any piece of loot could be trash to one char. (because I'm an acid spec. Wizard and it's fire buff. loot) but exactly what another char needs. Sure, there are lots of items that make no sense (like 20% mana bonus 2h-swords) but there is a VERY active auction house on DDO because the wide variety of character types (multi-classed, many specs, etc.) need an odd assortment of items. If the NWO devs put care into making sure there's no "uber" item traits they will have the loot get traded around and even inspire strange new character specs.
In fact where DDO fails is their unique in game loot that is so superior to the random type items, loot grinds became the norm because they were nearly requisite for high lvl. dungeons.
What is patently evil is rare loot drops... you can tell the color of a developer's soul from this alone. There are MANY ways to make content repeatable. Rare loot is the LEAST inspiring. DDO made Casual, normal, hard, and epic settings. That's a really effective solution, especially when different traps and monsters spawn at different settings, it's a nice surprise for little effort. Other games make instances that have very different puzzles that require different character classes to solve them. Instances that provide different rewards for different accomplishments (completing on stealth without killing any mobs or keeping an NPC alive as an optional) also works.
It's hard to be creative with this stuff, but what's possible, what's desired by most players, is having a wide array of loot items that other players MIGHT want on the auction house...nobody wants to just cash in trash loot at the bar, and if auction houses were as easy to use as eBay, we'd have fun playing those markets.
The REAL solution is making a crafting system that includes deconstructing loot to raw materials (iron, cloth, essence, element, etc.) and then craftable to a rate of level bound diminishing returns. What I mean is that crafting my +1 sword to +2 take two-bronze ingots, but +2 to +3 takes four-bronze ingots. So improvement is ever possible, but requires more and more resources.
That said, crafting is a HUGE development headache, and the track record for crafting focused worlds (EverquestII, Star Wars Galaxies, EVE) isn't inspiring. The crafting is great, but the games have NOT been breakout successes.
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A little confusing since MMO's don't really have an "end," but I would like an interesting story for the quest part of the game. Due to the lore carefully controlled and approved by Wizards, understand that controversy is most likely out, but a rich history-themed plot is in.
But how this links to raids and gear is still not clear. You might want to discuss that in this thread instead.
It will be the last most massive pvp raid for everyone - they can unleash all the big monsters to destroy the world - no one would really care about gear as end is inevitable. The world can be sustained for a last few days depending on efforts of players or can be wiped out in a few minutes is no one is fighting. This will increase profits even when pulling the plug (as it would be something different).
After the kill fest is over, they can start their new series with a (probably) 5e world.
Oh, I've done that (when games that had this option, few as they were) before the transition from Beta-Stress-Testing to the live wipe (where everybody is L1 for the brand new MMO) battle royale, and it is truly AMAZING.
It has also actually been done that way in some MMO's at their EoL (end of life) just before shutting down...that also is amazing and sad, literally fighting everything as the world ends.
They said in E3 that everybody gets rewarded with something useful, but there is a chest with random content and everybody gets to roll for it. So loot is not 100% even and it is random factor. Expect to do Dungeons multiple times.
They also said people want to gear to acces future content. What that future content is a Mysterium.
My guess future content could be:
1. Raid
2. Expansion
3. Some kind of Hard or Heroic mode of a Dungeon.
4. New harder Dungeons
5. Something else
I don't necessary need WOW everlasting loot mill but I like more the philosophy that you have to explore like 95 % of the World (like in Neverwinter Nights) before you hit any poweplateau in both level and items. In Guild Wars 2 you likely hit powerplateau already when you have explored like 10-20% which is annoying for me. Anyway actually I can see the logic with WOW and not criticicing that system.
That said in this game we have the FOUNDRY. However my experience from NWN1 tells me that people release good adventures it will be likely be 2014+. It is not fast to create an adventure thought of course somebody could split the adventure into multiple smaller instance releases.
I like to go back to the playstation commercial where the kid is complaining about his grandma takin over his toy. The commentator is like "all she had to play with was a STICK"! and he just keeps repeating it every time the kid tries to make a point. Funny as hell!
When I came up in M59 thats barely all we had...Same with DSO, and some other games. You know what kept me going back and why those games are STILL around with a core of dedicated players? You never out leveled your gear! Yea you could get better gear, but you never were obliged to get the "Uber Sword of NIght MooOOOn Slaying" because you would be dead all the time at tenth level if you didnt have one. Having the skill of PLAYING the game, working together to achieve a goal,and having fun while doing it... thats what I remember! Besides, I really dont want to go down the road of wash-rinse-and repeat loot runs of DDO ..
I will imediatly run from games like DDO's loot runs
mke
b:bye
This. If you don't like Cryptic endgame then enjoy what other people do using FOUNDRY.
I don't mind low level adventures. In fact I would like to play many example (in DD levels) level 1-10 adventures. If I have understood correctly the game multiply with 3 levels and there are max level 60 so in DD terms max level is 20. I am fine with that and I don't need to play some halfgod.
You confuse a bit don't you remember old Neverwinter Nights? You had to explore at least 95% of the World before hitting any possible max level. Most user created adventures what was in Neverwinter Nights were low-mid level.
I suspect NW's foundry will be more robust, but if the productivity flow is similar to STO's foundry, then you can have something basic in 30 minutes to 1 hour. Given a hard deadline a diligent author can have something really nice in 4 weeks to 6 weeks (that's the present production time for the STO Foundry challenges). An author that doesn't get to log on frequently (or that does get to log on frequently but is being extra meticulous) can author a really polished story in 2 months. That's been my experience.
An author that's very familiar with the limitations of the tools could reduce these numbers by weeks at a time.
Running the dungeon once or twice killing a weak boss and getting great treasures for it is lame.
I share my opinion in this regard with you. Also, a question was asked to devs at E3 in an interview - that potentially the foundry campaigns can be used to run for a particular gear etc. which will unfairly bring imbalance and boredom. But it seems that devs have some safeguards in place against that.
Best NWN1 adventures were "Dark Waters" author... and it took over a year for one BIG module!
Well said. Yes a short adventure like go into the cave defeat the Dragon and if succeed then end is typical in beginning. There will be of course ALPHA and BETA versions, but I will skip them. I might play a Beta version only if it says almost finished and playable in description.
Before really good adventures(and longer then go into Cave defeat Dragon!) comes out I believe it will be 2014+. Yes a very short module of linear can be released before that but I prefer in those cases if there are a few short modules to play them as a linear longer story.
Community will get better at creating, but if it is like in NWN1 then bugfixing will always take a very long time. I rather play one really good adventure then 10 bad/average adventures.
EDIT! That said IF Cryptic makes a guide like this to Neverwinter, then it will speed a lot the process:)
http://www.stowiki.org/GuideGDN_The_Foundry
Anyway I am not interested in short adventures.
Since you asked, yes, I am aware. It took people time to learn the Aurora Toolset. As a STO Foundry author and a former Aurora Toolset user myself I can already see that the learning curve isn't nearly as drastic. I believe you're being unnecessarily picky.
Additionally, I gave some real examples of production time I've witnessed from a beta version of the Foundry in live game environment. I'll be the first to tell you that STO's Foundry isn't all rainbows and puppy dogs, but you'd be surprised at the amazing things authors have created despite the limitations. Working under the assumption that in the meantime the Neverwinter team has improved upon the Foundry since it was put into STO (it's supposed to be a big selling point for NW after all), then I don't see how those production times are overly optimistic.
https://soundcloud.com/nathankilgore/i-wanna-see-you2
Otter ~~~~ on Beholder
Yes there can be short instances, but then I expect a long linear story divided into multiple modules and good story background. It is quite ironic you talk about selling point when game is free.
As I have understood those player created things are all instances for 5 players. Cryptic does not want anything custom made imported to their campaign. It could unbalance the Cryptic Campaign.
All player created stuff should be treated like separate from Cryptic Campaign. Cryptic Campaign has its own level/gear progression system.
It is a disappointment that those features are not allowed into the player made campaign though. The only reasons I can think of:
1. it is a free MMO and it would require more effort to create support for such features.
2. Creating custom armors items etc. would likely increase system requirements slightly.
Foundry missions are not just 5 person content. There are plenty of solo foundry modules in STO. There are also some Foundry stories that are several modules long. We'll have to see how the foundry is implemented here, but I don't see why it would be different here.
While I understand the desire for player created assets it is not practical for the sake of consistency or the cost of and effort of maintenance. It wouldn't necessarily have to increase system requirements at all since assets could have constraints on size and such.
If everyone could create whatever they wanted willy nilly the whole world would lack consistency and cohesion. I think that would be contrary to what Cryptic would be trying to accomplish in creating a Forgotten Realms game world.
My problem with this is "up to five players". Neverwinter needs an activity where groups of friends can work together toward a goal. I have more than 4 friends who play together online and there are guilds out there that have been together greater than a decade that will wish to play as a group. Yes, there should be solo content... there should be group content (five players)... and there should be raid content (10, 20, and more). Feel free to set this content up 'to be completed in an hour' but do add it (or state that you plan to add it). Most MMO players expect it and it will be a detraction if they are not present at release or shortly after.
Corollary question; is there a way for more than five people to group together? If so, can one build 'raid' content through the Foundry system? If both are 'yes'; then player built raids might meet community needs. Defend The Keep on the Borderlands? Crusade against the Temple of Elemental Evil? Or lead your army Against the Giants?
Note: I said nothing about loot in regards to raids. Loot, regardless of how you obtained it, should be awarded by level of content. A difficult solo mission shouldn't give an individual player less loot than a difficult group mission or difficult raid. Likewise, a difficult raid shouldn't give better loot than group or solo. It should, perhaps, give more such that when your 10 man group defeats the red dragon at then end of your cave crawl... everybody walks away with something.
Perhaps that would be how you do it... everybody gets a drop according to the level of content they are running. That way the reason to form a multi-group outing is companionship and comradery... not a phat lewt grind.
(Side note, evcen DDO had 12 man content.)
5 ppl on a team is enough for me. It's a classical number of groups in most RPGs.
I have a different idea:
Instead of 10, 20 players raids let there be only 5 ppl raids. However, from time to time a special event may happen. Prepared by devs, an event that will have a huge impact on Neverwinter lore. In such cases, these scenario could be played by more ppl. This, however, would be a special, temprorary case.
Yes there are guilds out there that have tons of players and might want to all play together, but there are other ways. It's an adventure not some strategy game war.
I think 5 man instances is good enough and can bring a lot of fun team-work.
I forgot, is this going to be F2P method? If so you can't always expect full dev produced end game content, the amazing thing about foundry is you create your own end game with heavy dialog roleplay which I'm looking foward to.
I imagine majority of players on Neverwinter is going to be older therefore making it more fun.
I love the fact that this game could require some skill and reflex since every attack and DODGE is going to be manuelly done. I wasn't a fan at first but then I realized it could be really fun. BECAUSE it could take the thunder from those people who just farm all day and have no skill. Also 3 hours just standing there waiting for all 50 people to get on and get ready like pigs to the slaughter is not for me at all.
I dont' think you can have a huge impact on Neverwinter lore unless Wizard of the Coast agrees upon it.
When your group defeats a dragon, the dragon itself shouldn't drop anything unless you can farm his scales and bones...
This game is not what dnd is about as you put it. It is an MMO game based on dnd and is not a copy of pnp campaigns. It is bound to be different as devs have already mentioned in interviews and has been discussed on forums for quite some time.
So you should be open minded in what can or cannot be done.
That said, 50 man raids can fit in well to neverwinter story, e.g. invasion of NW city by Thay, Netehril etc. like a war. So I would say event based raids like that would integrate well. However, devs have already said that there is no large party raids apart from 5(or was that 6?) member parties.
1. Raiding can fit Neverwinter setting, there are many hooks in lore that Cryptic can use to tie the raid to story, although I would prefer something smaller than 50 man (but that's maybe because I' m used to DDO raiding style and have the concept of DnD about small groups succeding on very difficult tasks, and yes I do think that 12 people is still a small group compared to the hordes of monsters they can throw at them
2. Loot shouldn't necessarily be the best, but I believe it would be better if it were "slightly" above the norm, without going overboard. Of course that's starting from the assumption that the raids are challenging, with puzzles and the such included.
3. Raids and Delves shouldn't be end-game content only. Sure, I'd like to see them at end-game, but also throughout all the leveling journey of my character, to give more options to the players while leveling.
One last thing: even though I agree that raids and delves shouldn't have "super uber extremely powerful" loot, as I said before they should have something interesting for all the playerbase, which isn't only made of storytellers and roleplayers, but also power gamers who enjoy a well built character better. Besides if you feel compelled to get that equipment just because it's the best, then you' re a power gamer too or are just worrying too much of the opinion of elitist-minded players who think your character and your skill as a player aren't good just because it's not equipped as they want. In that case, I feel sorry as you' re not having fun, for that should be the least of your worries.
Now please keep in mind what I wrote is only an opinion and feeling I get, if I am wrongly assuming, do express yourselves.
Role Play - I don't typically role-play in MMOs. Yes, have to a degree in PnP but none of my regular gaming groups have been comprised of actors, if you understand my meaning. Should heavy RP be an option in NWO? Yes, of course.
Player vs Player - I have enjoyed PvP now and then in MMOs. I actively discourage players in my PnP groups from killing each other; its bad business and often disrupts game flow and can impact friendships. Should PvP be an option in NWO? Yes, of course.
Player vs Environment (solo - single group) - The meat and drink of MMOs and PnP gaming. NWO already promises some of the most robust PvE gaming in an MMO fantasy genre. Which is good!
Crafting - There are many players in MMOs who simply wish to craft. Look to UO, SWG, Vangard, and Horizons (yes, I went there) for prime examples. While I do craft, I am not one of those players... but I do value those that are. The option should be in NWO.
Raids - I have enjoyed raiding in MMOs. I have even seen 'raiding' done in PnP games though, typically, with large numbers of NPCs rather than players. Henchmen, hirelings, soldiers, summoned creatures, charmed minions, constructs, etc are all a part of classic D&D. There are volumes of PnP rules surrounding the topic. Should 'raiding' be an option in NWO? Yes, it should.
By allowing for every play style, you appeal to a wider player base which can only be healthy for the longevity of the game. So, rather than post about what play-style should and should not be in the game; you have the chance now to suggest how each play-style can be implemented in a sensible way. And that's the course that I'd prefer to take. To that end...
Loot rewards should be measured by the level of the character completing the content... not how many did. If one person completes a dungeon, he gets an appropriate level reward. If 100 people (number for example only) complete a 100 man dungeon, they all get an appropriate level reward. As solo, group, and raid completions return equal level rewards, groups and raids become about the people you spend time with rather than the loot you achieve.
On crafting; one should be able to make appropriate level gear from the materials that you can glean at your level. Far too often in MMOs you can not craft your own level gear from craft mats that you, yourself, are able to obtain.
On PvP; this one is more tricky because it is so easily abused. Its one thing to suggest that PvP rewards should be equal to the same level PvE rewards... it's quite another to implement it. Suggestions?
On Role-Play; sorry guys... RP is it's own reward. Can't quantify the activity so can't equate it to PvE, Raids, Crafting, or PvP. At least... that I know of.
There is no reason that a five man can be as diffiicult as any 20 or 40 man raid.
I personally would like to see very difficult 5 mans where most will fail. Every person in the 5 man will have to be at the top of there game too have a chance to succeed.
I remember my first experience with raiding in Everquest in 1999 and quite frankly the game was not made for them. Lag connection drops etc etc. With wow the raids were more stable but still you had drops and some lag. And quite frankly with a few exceptions i never found them to be that difficult or enjoyable. I always hated the elite trash mobs which had no chance of winning but took time to kill. Why are these orcs in this dungeon elite while most orcs are not?
For the love of my sanity elite mobs should make sence ie dragons, Giants, Lich, vampires etc etc. lower level elite mobs might be Trolls, Minataurs etc etc. An evil necromancer might be a very tough normal mob something to be feared but not something to be o **** a dragon, or storm giant, or Lich.
End game is as important in my mind as any other aspect of the game. A great game with no end game will not be around long. coughs stwor(loved the game up until the end so rolled another toon and one other then quit after 3 months with 3 max level toons). The two games i played the longest were everquest and ****. **** had a great end game which kept me entertained for two years not including the one year alpha and beta. Anyone ever play earth and beyond was a lot of fun but there was no end game. The world was quite small once you explored the last system you were like omg thats it!
Actually 5 man content can easily be just as difficulty if not more difficult than 20 or 40 man content. 5 man content relies on everyone to pull their own weight as long as they don't allow gear being able to trivialize content. 5 man allows less mistakes than 20 or 40 man content where the 20-40 man stuff allows people's dead weight being pulled around. Problem with 5 man difficulty is the nerfs, people are screaming that GW2 dungeons is ohhh soooo hard even though they are not suppose to be plowing through the content at that lvl nor with the lack of gear.
This is where mmo and PnP really struggle. PnP has items that matter to the story, and items that matter to the characters. MMOs don't because you can't have 50 Eyes of Vecna on the Auction House. There are also complications to introducing unique loot because it can screw game balance. If everybody has it, it's not very powerful anymore.
DDO has done a reasonably good job by creating massive amounts of random loot types with the their randomly applied prefix and suffix slots. This meant that any piece of loot could be trash to one char. (because I'm an acid spec. Wizard and it's fire buff. loot) but exactly what another char needs. Sure, there are lots of items that make no sense (like 20% mana bonus 2h-swords) but there is a VERY active auction house on DDO because the wide variety of character types (multi-classed, many specs, etc.) need an odd assortment of items. If the NWO devs put care into making sure there's no "uber" item traits they will have the loot get traded around and even inspire strange new character specs.
In fact where DDO fails is their unique in game loot that is so superior to the random type items, loot grinds became the norm because they were nearly requisite for high lvl. dungeons.
What is patently evil is rare loot drops... you can tell the color of a developer's soul from this alone. There are MANY ways to make content repeatable. Rare loot is the LEAST inspiring. DDO made Casual, normal, hard, and epic settings. That's a really effective solution, especially when different traps and monsters spawn at different settings, it's a nice surprise for little effort. Other games make instances that have very different puzzles that require different character classes to solve them. Instances that provide different rewards for different accomplishments (completing on stealth without killing any mobs or keeping an NPC alive as an optional) also works.
It's hard to be creative with this stuff, but what's possible, what's desired by most players, is having a wide array of loot items that other players MIGHT want on the auction house...nobody wants to just cash in trash loot at the bar, and if auction houses were as easy to use as eBay, we'd have fun playing those markets.
The REAL solution is making a crafting system that includes deconstructing loot to raw materials (iron, cloth, essence, element, etc.) and then craftable to a rate of level bound diminishing returns. What I mean is that crafting my +1 sword to +2 take two-bronze ingots, but +2 to +3 takes four-bronze ingots. So improvement is ever possible, but requires more and more resources.
That said, crafting is a HUGE development headache, and the track record for crafting focused worlds (EverquestII, Star Wars Galaxies, EVE) isn't inspiring. The crafting is great, but the games have NOT been breakout successes.