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CDP Topic: PvP
nitocris83
Member, Cryptic Developer, Administrator Posts: 4,498Cryptic Developer › Cryptic Developer
For the latest CDP, we are running two topics concurrently in two separate threads. The topic for this thread is Neverwinter PvP. This includes:
For information on the purpose of CDP discussions, please go here.
Note: Using the feedback format below allows us to better identify commonalities/differences and generate summaries and proposals more efficiently. As a reminder, the format is for feedback proposals, not for discussions/replies to another user’s proposal.
Feedback Format
Feedback Overview (short description of the proposed feedback)
Feedback Goal (what this feedback would target and accomplish)
Feedback Functionality (how would your feedback work in relation to the current design of Neverwinter)
Risks & Concerns (what problems can you foresee with implementing your feedback that you would like input on from members of this subforum)
Topic Discussion End Date: March 11, 2020
Reminders
- The current state of PvP (what PvP options are available vs what modes you’d like to see)
- The purpose of PvP (what motivates different players to engage with PvP)
- PvP Rewards & Leaderboard
- PvP Campaign
- PvP Seasons
- Intersection between PvP and PvE in terms of classes, gear, builds, etc.
For information on the purpose of CDP discussions, please go here.
Note: Using the feedback format below allows us to better identify commonalities/differences and generate summaries and proposals more efficiently. As a reminder, the format is for feedback proposals, not for discussions/replies to another user’s proposal.
Feedback Format
Feedback Overview (short description of the proposed feedback)
Feedback Goal (what this feedback would target and accomplish)
Feedback Functionality (how would your feedback work in relation to the current design of Neverwinter)
Risks & Concerns (what problems can you foresee with implementing your feedback that you would like input on from members of this subforum)
Topic Discussion End Date: March 11, 2020
Reminders
- We will not disclose information regarding unreleased or in-development content. This includes specific business-related metrics, dates or timelines, or licensing agreements.
- Game development is the primary focus of the team - developer presence on these subforums cannot realistically be as frequent as the community would like. This does not mean the team is not invested in this initiative; it is taken very seriously. Thread summaries and actions plans developed once a topic has concluded its run are extremely valuable in maintaining the development team aware of the focused feedback, discussions, and community sentiment.
- These subforums are meant to be a collaborative discussion where we all learn from each other, share perspectives, and come to the table with ideas for the improvement of Neverwinter. This does not mean that we will take action on every proposal or that positive comments from the development team are to be construed as promises.
- Keep comments and discussions on topic and follow the CDP Conduct and Expectations.
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Comments
What I want to see is a whole different set of mounts, companions and gear meant only for PvP. Gear we have but most PvE stuff still fits in. Enchants are a pain to get. You can get 14 of one type to only realize that your build is not going to work well, this is the only place where having money pays off. Currently with the poor choice we have either maximum defense with broken items or glass cannons that deal more than you can survive. And let's be honest, it's harder for people in EU to dodge and hit than for people in the US.
Different gear would mean a lot of work on enchantments side but we just simply can't have people run around with shadowclad and paladin sigils, soulforged healers, no cooldown rangers/fighters.
Those are tedious to fight. You get constantly rooted, constantly knocked or can't kill the person for the whole match if you have just a bit lower stats than them.
There is very little reward for the amount of work that's needed to be put into PvP. Rank 10 enchantment is worth just as much as a few Tower of the Mad Mage runs.
If people want a fair experience for all, we'd need a total revamp of domination (open world can be left at it's current state, nothing can help it).
- PVP is currently out of place in the overall Neverwinter game experience. I would like to see it as a stand alone game.
The current problems is that PVE characters, their powers, feats, and abilities are influencing PVP. Many feats, powers, and class abilities were readjusted because of their misuse in PVP. Once these nerfs were implemented, they handicapped the PVE characters that relied on those powers, feats, etc.
Solution: Separate PVP from PVE. PVP players must create all new characters in the stand alone game. All new boon system, feats, powers, and gear. NO PVE enchantments, NO PVE influences.
The purpose of PvP (what motivates different players to engage with PvP)
- Multiple game modes and maps are a great way to motivate players for PVP.
1 vs 1 for showdowns & call outs, 3 vs 3 for small brawls, 5 vs 5 for organized teams, 10 vs 10 for divide and conquer, 20 vs 20 for Battle Royale
Take a chapter from Destiny 2, implement a PVP mode were you have race against another team to destroy as many enemies as possible and kill a random boss at the end. First team to complete their objective and destroy the boss wins the match.
Solo q was a requested feature from a very vocal minority, that basically destroyed the PvP community, I understand the sentiment of making the game more accessible to beginners, or casuals, but solo q did not achieve this, all it did was damage an already struggling PvP playerbase, and make the game less fun to play as most of us here play with friends, no more duo's or trio's, solo q took that away, it also killed off the more competitive side of Neverwinter PvP, 5vs5 premades, most of which happened through a snipe or randomly bumping into each other .
The PvP community is now too small to support multiple queue's, or advanced matchmaking, right now we have solo q, and the normal domination q, the later doesn't even pop when you have two 5 mans syncing q's, all you need is one solo player q'ing in normal dom and all 10 of you can sit there for all eternity and never get a pop .
What this would achieve is add fun back to PvP, you are chilling in discord with a couple of friends, you can q together, there are other ways to make the game more accessible to beginners and casuals without ruining both the fun aspect or the competitive aspect of the game, but I'll get to how you can improve the accessibility now .
-MMO power creep is what hurts new players and casuals the most, yes experienced players also contribute but there is no way around that, we did not become experience players overnight, no one should expect to be competitive vs players that have actually put in the work .
One of the biggest contributing factors to power creep when it comes to PvP is legendary mounts/insignia, an easy idea to counter this is to overhaul epic mounts/insignia, to give 70-80% of what legendary one's give, this includes combat power, there should be an epic version of Lion and Swarm, and Tensor's, etc etc that are just weaker versions of their legendary counterparts, likewise for insignia, this would make new/casual players much more competitive vs fully BIS PvP veterans, having epics give half the stats, is one of the main contributing factors .
Before people jump to conclusions I am fully BIS, I have multiple BIS legendary mounts, I just want the PvP community to grow, and I want to see new/casual players have more of a fighting chance, we all benefit from a healthy PvP scene .
-Better rewards, we had one NCL that rewarded a legendary mount, this was the right direction, why we never got a second NCL baffles me, rank 10s as rewards for the PvP season would have been fine, if this was pre module 6, it isn't, you get better rewards for doing your daily random pve, in just two days .
Revamping rewards is crucial, giving players incentive to PvP goes hand in hand with a healthy PvP scene, and q's popping, things like more rough AD, RP, refining stones, drops that are actually worth something, revamping season rewards, a meaningful leaderboard that doesn't just reward you because you are the flavor of the month class, or a dps, top 5 of every class for example get rewards (NCL was top 20 of every class), things like unique transmutes/skins, mounts, titles or equipment only acquirable through PvP, small things can make a huge difference .
-QOL updates concerning pvp, a minimum gs requirement, complete removal of the kicking option, being able to see how many people are waiting in the q, matchmaking that actually places healers on either team, and tries to form rainbow comps whenever possible, auto boot in case of disconnect or afk over a certain amount of time .
I will close this with a word about my class, Barbarians need to be able to go unstoppable from taking damage, atm we do not gain enough rage from damage taken, for every 1% damage we should get around 2% of our rage, losing half your HP should give you full rage, as it stands now we need to waste a full rotation to be able to go unstoppable, hold on to the rage, and wait for our ridiculously long cd's to be able to dish out optimal damage, this means it takes about 25 seconds for us to be able to dish out the same amount of damage as other dps classes, and vs an equally geared and skilled TR or HR or CW you are usually dead in well under 25 seconds, as they go from 0 to 100 pretty much instantly .
PvP should have a new mode similar to MOBAs where characters are "normalized" so they start with the same power and stats. So when they enter to this mode, remove all the gear / boons / mounts / companions / enchants, etc and give everyone the same equip / stats.
Then you will earn some currency in game for kills / assist / time / nodes / whatever you want and you can buy "power ups" for that game only, and lose currency when you die.
Im sure some players wont like this idea, because they did invest a lot maxing characters but I think it could be great to have an alternative mode only bassed in skill and teamplay because lots of new players that like pvp could compete with old maxed ones.
I dont think this will solve PvP problems but I think it could help to get lots of players into PvP.
My 2cents
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
Feedback Overview
Decouple from PvE, in terms of balancing powers, items and so on. If there is a problematic skill it should have "In PvP this thing does X"Feedback Goal
To not HAMSTER off the entire PvE playbase every time there is a PvP balance change, or vice versaFeedback Functionality
Risks & Concerns
Takes resources, but much less so than trying to create one solution to fit all.Also previously there was this repeated explanation "Players will be confused by different functionality" - Players will not be confused if the tooltips are not afterthought.
Feedback Overview
Add observer "role" to the queue, or some other solution which will allow spectating.Feedback Goal
Ability to join as spectator and from that streaming and community organized events are key to success in many competitive games.PvP is a spectators game, from old ages, aka Romes Gladiators. This alone can invigorate PvP and also prevent some negative behavior.
Feedback Functionality
Simplest is to add queue flag, which will put the player as bodyless free roaming camera, or similar to CS and other games: to change to PoV of other players (And always remain in a PoV of some player - which doesn't require coding the free roaming camera mode), which may be simpler.A more "complete" idea is a list of on-going matches and the ability to join in as spectator at any time. (Modern competitive games implement this, though usually with built in delay)
Risks & Concerns
I don't see any problem except those who have something to hide.Feedback Goal: Balance available to a wider array of players, promoting skill versus money or time deficit
Feedback Functionality: I’ll admit that I don’t partake in PvP in this game. I have delved into it once or twice in my nearly seven years at playing. The biggest reason being the vast disparity with gear, artifacts and equipment brought into the foray that greatly discourage newer players from joining. I, however, played PvP almost exclusively during my entire time playing World of Warcraft.
I propose two different solutions, both can actually be implemented at the same time via PvP type or queue type and frankly, offer a more complete system for two different types of PvP players.
First, pure equalization. All classes enter into a PvP match with the same fundamental gear, artifacts and stats designed specifically for PvP content. This will offer the PvP player the opportunity to get experience, build their combat senses and possibly find some semblance of enjoyment in the experience. They should also be able to earn currency that would go towards my next suggestion.
PvP specific gear tab akin to PvE equipment and Appearance items. These should be earned pieces of equipment that reward the player for competing in the balanced arena. They can earn bonus currency for completing this and have the opportunity test out their skills against other players with similarly earned equipment. Until an equipment piece is earned, they would enter into the area, if they so chose to, with their balanced PvP equipment only.
As for the PvP specific abilities, I don’t mean to create whole new abilities but instead create a subtext of current abilities that state its effectiveness in PvP. Far too often the game is attempting to cater to this delicate balance between PvE and PvP when it comes to skills. Some skills have a small but noticeable footnote stating its different effects in PvP. I would implore you to expound upon that and make it so that you can balance the game and powers more effectively by having each ability have it’s own specific PvE and PvP impact. Yes, that does mean more time but, it also lessens the burden of worrying about how an ability might adversely impact PvE or PvP when you can separate the two in that manner.
Furthermore, the earned PvP gear could reintroduce things like tenacity but, please use it sparingly. While I don’t think it’s appropriate for anyone to get one-shot, I do believe that tenacity is something that should be carefully considered. For instance, the more players you are directly being engaged by, the more effective tenacity is. No one likes getting ganged up on but still, have it’s maximum effectiveness be capped at 3 players. No one should be one or two shotting anyone else in PvP. If you ever want to see someone lose interest in PvP, don’t address that.
Risks & Concerns: Many PvP players love their advantages. Many people just love trolling others and making them miserable. This is the nature of this environment. But many others enjoy the sheer competition of it and can respect their fellow players. Having it more focused on skill and tactics instead of who has the highest item level and who spent the most money, will only serve to expand the sense of availability to your players. Right now, you have a small but dedicated PvP base and you’re looking to expand it. I would caution you that taking only their feedback and running with it could further alienate potential players who already find PvP in Neverwinter to be discouraging and uninviting. Try not to alienate them if you can but, please don’t focus in like a soda straw on their feedback, either.
Improved PVP competitor grouping
Feedback Goal:
Have a way for players to engage PVP without getting slaughtered. Give players a chance to learn how to PVP.
Feedback Functionality:
I would like to see PVP separated into leagues. As players move up in ranking their league also moves up. There can also be negative rank stats that move players down in leagues. In this, players from higher leagues cannot enter lower league matches, but lower league players can enter higher league matches.
Ideally this would pit lower skilled players against each other. As they improve, they face better skilled players. There would need to be a ranking system developed (or borrowed from something else).
PVP in it’s current state isn’t the least bit inviting to anyone who isn’t skilled in PVP.
Risks & Concerns:
PVP is so toxic may won’t bother engaging.
There won’t be enough players engaging to keep leagues viable.
Striking the correct league balance can be a problem (ranking out too fast or too slow).
In its current state I rarely bother with PVP. It simply isn't worth my time and energy. The last time I ran it for any significant period was for a guild competition for a R12 Brutal when it was a BiS enchantment.
Jade - Cleric - Healer Main - The Freak Core - Xbone
Magnus - Fighter - Tank for queues - The Freak Core - Xbone
Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Bardholomew - Bard - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Sirona - Cleric - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Jade - DC - Shadows of Gauntlgrym - PC
A little background before I get into the feedback: I'm an xbox player, and I main an endgame barbarian. I've been playing since mod 6, and have been comfortably endgame since about Mod 11. A lot of my specific comments will use barbs as the example, since it's what I'm most familiar with, and as an endgamer with legendary mounts and insignias, rank 15 enchants, and BiS gear, I am 100% behind stripping gear differences out of PVP completely.
Feedback Overview: Class imbalances and bringing our own items and gear are the main causes of the current PVP issues
I think PVP improvements could help keep endgamers engaged after they've completed all the base content, and if the rewards are good and accessible to newer players it should be able to work for everyone. That said, I think the current issues with PVP are due to 2 main things: (1) classes are still wildly unbalanced, and (2) unlike most PVP games, we bring our own items in with us. I'll discuss both points under each of the headers below.
Feedback Goal (what this feedback would target and accomplish)
(1) The goal should be to make all classes equally viable, in PVE and PVP content. Non-viable classes won't queue, which means you only have a small fraction of the playerbase that thinks it's even worth trying.
(2) Leveling the playing field takes out the difference between vets and newbies, so newbies won't queue once, get stomped, and then never try PVP again. Midgamers also benefit, because it's expensive to gear a character up and you basically need to gear your character twice to be good at both PVE and PVP. Leveling the field improves queue numbers across all segments of the playerbase.
Feedback Functionality (how would your feedback work in relation to the current design of Neverwinter)
(1) You need to balance all the classes in PVP (and PVE, which still hasn't happened yet). Currently in PVP, as has been discussed above by other commentors there are huge gaps in how different classes perform. Barbarians have long cooldowns on all of their abilities, take too long to build rage, and can be killed before they're halfway through a rotation. Other classes, like rogues and hunters, have cooldown reductions built into their skill trees and deal more damage faster than an equally-geared barbarian ever can. This should not happen - if there are classes that cannot compete against equally geared and equally skilled other classes, PVP is never going to work. Anyone not playing one of the better classes won't bother queuing, and anyone in those better classes without better gear won't bother queuing. The end result is you get only a tiny fraction of the playerbase queuing, because any players that try PVP and do nothing but feed don't have a good time and won't bother trying again any time soon (if at all).
(2) Another commentor mentioned that in MOBAS, everyone starts the match with basic gear and at level 1, and it resets for each match. This is how you need to approach PVP, otherwise the matches are decided before they even start. My recommendation is to give every player a PVP loadout for their characters, give them a choice of 2-4 gear pieces per slot that have the same stat offerings for everyone (e.g. you can pick from 2 helmets that have the same IL, one with defense and deflect and one with armor penetration and critical strike, and that's it). Every enchant slot can be filled with a rank 10 radiant, dark, azure, or silvery, and that's it. Artifacts are mythic sigils of the classes (whether or not the player has them all unlocked in PVE), you get to choose which one is your active and which of the other 5 you want as the 3 other artifacts. This way there's some customization and strategy that players can tinker with, but when you start a PVP match there's more room for skill and game-sense to shine as the reason you win or lose. PVP would be immediately accessible for new players, midgamers won't need to choose between spending AD on PVE gear or PVP gear, and endgamers can't just wipe the floor with newbies due to their stacked gear.
Risks & Concerns (what problems can you foresee with implementing your feedback that you would like input on from members of this subforum)
(1) Your dev team is tiny, and even though class balance has been an issue since Mod 16 dropped, fixes to the balance are few and still not sufficient. Wizards, rogues and hunters are still the only DPS that are accepted into endgame PVE content, and have extreme advantages over all other classes in PVP. Constant posts here and on reddit, and attrition rates from people who play other classes, have been ignored or pushed further and further into the future as items to update someday, but not today. It's not a nice thing to say to you guys, but my #1 concern is that this just won't be fixed, and anything else you do to slap a bandaid on this won't actually solve the problem. Better rewards don't mean a thing if over half of the playable classes know they can literally never win a 1v1 against certain classes- especially since rewards are only given in PVP if you win the match. If I know I will never win, and therefore won't even be eligible for the rewards, I won't queue no matter how good the loot is. This isn't Overwatch where I can swap to another hero if I get hard countered, I'm stuck on my barbarian through the whole match- if I'm just swinging a wet noodle the whole time when everyone else has sharp knives, there's no point in trying.
(2) A lot of endgamers, and the handful of hardcore PVPers that exist, will hate this. They want to see their progress, and I understand that, but it's diametrically opposed to the goal of getting more people to play PVP. Newer players, and midgamers with ok PVE gear but zero investments into PVP, absolutely will not queue for PVP just to get stomped by endgamers with maxed gear and enchants. They will queue once, have a horrible time, and maybe queue again in 6 months when they have better gear, or maybe never try again. If everyone has a fighting chance from the start, and their own skill and understanding of the game and their class make the difference between winning and losing, more people will queue.
Feedback Goal Try and get to a break even point for the game itself. as a disclamer I play a DPS class, but most of the thing I will talk about don't deal with my class for the most part.
the Stamina regen is completly broken in PVP, currently most people that go into a domination match got from having a stamina regen above 20% end up with a -35 to -45% stamina regen. This really effects the tanks more than anyone, as a dps i should not be able to 1 or 2 shot their shields and then just do damage to them from the front because they have no shield left. on the other side of the issue is that there are dps classes that are bigger tanks than the tank themselves. truthfully that makes no sense to me. T ad to what @fireball310 said yes the paladin sigil is a game breaker, one person drops the sigil and then it takes all 5 members of the other team to damage the person in the sigil. the healers are also very crazy as well, I have been on both sides of this issue. I had a healer heall me through a 5 v 2 fight and i survived, and been on the side of the 5 v 2 and couldn't dent the opposing player.
feedback functionality Looking into the stamina, healing and as said in many posts before me matchmaking would help bring some consistency back to pvp.
Feedback concerns I am afraid it cause some of the older players to leave because it is a change, and people in general don't adjust to changes to much
Feedback Overview
PVP and PVE should be two separate things and changes to the balance of one should not affect the other.Feedback Goal
Help foster an environment to where both PVP and PVE can exist without alienating one or the other part of the playerbase.Feedback Functionality
Time and again I have seen changes made to PVE in order to balance PVP or vice versa. This leads to resentment and pits one section of the player base against the other. There are many options to balance PVP without affecting PVE but they all require more developer resources and effort. IMO Cryptic needs to decide if PVP is worth that effort and then commit to it fully if it is. I have seen a few community members call for a separate Neverwinter themed PVP game. I do not think that is needed but I do think PVP should be developed as a separate entity. Different gear, powers, weapons, boons... you get my point. If you want to use PVE to help outfit or level for PVP then give a form of PVP currency for completing PVE content. This currency could then be used to purchase balanced items and gear to use in PVP.Risks & Concerns
More developer resources would be needed.Why I don't PVP in Neverwinter
I agree with everything @darthpotater posted above. Those are a few of the reasons I will not participate in PVP in Neverwinter. On top of what he said I would also add that I was rarely able to experience PVP without crazy long queue times. On one of the few occasions that I did experience PVP it was with premades on both teams. It was fun, but obviously broken. I personally would not sink time or effort into it, there are many other PVP centered games on the market that do a better job. One of the few times I was able to get a queue to pop without a premade it was the most toxic experience I have had in Neverwinter. After that I lost all interest in PVP. That was a long time ago and I doubt those people are still in the community.My main problems:
-Balance vs progression: You can't really have both. In a free MMO you probably can't have either for a long time, but being a progression based game breaks the inherent class balance (even if it was that balanced to being with).
-Overattached to PvE: While just using PvE stuff to progress your character seems the least resource expensive solution, PvE is not meant to be
balancedoptimised and competitive, so there's an inherent problem that PvE design should have to oblige the PvP norms and makes a bar so high that it cannot be reasonably met during development. The long progression cycle that an MMO builds on destroys any potential for casual or (unless huge resources are spent on balancing and reworking) just a healthy PvP. However, by building a strong and independent PvP foundation will mean that no PvE nerfs or items will have negative side effect to PvP.Basically by making a PvE role, as a class role or maybe requiring a full different loadout that specs on the PvP aspect of the role and changes the skills as so. Making it's own progression, gear, enchantments, companions and boon and other systems. If there is an overlap (which while not the best, probably unavoidable), PvP on itself should provide the resources (aka Astral diamond) to get it or it should be bought in itself. I think that if people invest huge amount of time (and money) into PvP, they probably should have the PvP equivalent of the Lionheart set.
More PvP focused event: I think if PvP gets rework to work as an individual system, it would probably need like 2 tier, casual and professional. Casual will be to get boons, to progress and to alliance/guild events including PvP and/or those who would like to try it out, but not really want to torn into pieces by the big players. The professional would have the leaderboards, the high rewards and prestige and I probably would not touch it from a mile.
As always I apollogy in advance, my english is not so great. So some grammar/spelling mistakes may happen(or not). Also, if happens anything confusing, just let me know and I will try explain/correct it so it would be more clear.
I will share my opinion and suggestions about pvp, some suggestions are based on my previous played games. Which I think Neverwinter can use and make pvp more interesting.
. Sorry @nitocris83 I will not go with current format of CDP, not this time..
Cuz there is not much of feedbacks to give about system which need complete overhaul.
Alright quick overview.
Pvp stand for player vs player, however in neverwinter there is no pvp. It's gear demonstration/competition show.
Even current play style in pvp is rather simple. You stand face 2 face to other player and hammering keyboard. Last one stand = winner. If you realy want make pvp are real pvp, then this play style must go away.
We have high stat creeps and adding extra stats when you are in pvp(pvp boons), it not help at all. Also some mentioned want pvp gear. So think about how much stat creep we get.. By keeping pvp closer to metal( more closer to player skills not gear) then pvp become more fun and more competitive.
r.
Now I know that there are players who love current pvp style, so no wories, I have ideas for them too.
Some also mentioned here that pve and pvp must be separated. Neverwinter online try do that before, didn't work. So why repeat same mistake?
Now thing is that, I also have seen how some games which are 15+ years old and still goes well, and have pvp/pve and pk(player killer) features blended.
Also, think about open world pvp, dvarven valley or ice wind pass black ice pvp areas. IF you keep pve and pvp seprated and in pvp some adds/npcs got involved, all get messed up.
Other thing, you realize that by try do keep pvp and pve seprated, if powers work differently in pve and pvp, staff will had keep doing all classes powers/features retesting with each new patch. To make sure, that powers would work as intended in pve or pvp mode. It would be bad if during dungeon run your powers start to work as you would be in pvp. Or opposite, you are in pvp but powers work as you would be in dungeon(pve).
And now over all rewards. Lot of times I was told and still do read/hear talks, uhh eastern mmorpg games are too grindy. Now if you look to neverwinter it's become farm/grind fiesta. And pvp also become just another area where you farm/grind items for gear refinament. Which bring question, where the hell is fun part? I mean players want simply have a fun, a decent fight. Not a gear demonstration. Where players skills and knowledge is matter. And this is that I know how do it.
Suggetions:
1) team vs team pvp.
Right out of the bat. Lets stop team A vs team B.
Lets make Three parties pvp in same time. Three side war is always better, which make combat more interesting.
Player from team A may land hand/assist to player from team B in combat with player from team C.
But also he is aware that player B may turn against him and backstab. When you have three side war, temp alliance/team up and betraying happening in middle of fight.
Also there is no such thing like, your team member leave fight, either disconnect or rage quit cuz party members don't met his expectation(gear wise).
Even team A may be weaker, when team B and C fight, team A still do have chance to win, due taking advantage of situation of battle field.
Note: to make that work, would need some decent pvp system reevaluation and optimization. That would be a hard work.
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2) pvp communications and score board.
When you are in pvp arena. There is no need for you to read trade/lfg or zone chat. For that there is queue and party chats.
During pvp, players indentity should not be visible to other than party/group members. To many chat wars happening in that time which should be spend for murdering each other in field of battle.
As for score board, there is no need to be visible in middle of match. In the end is ok to review how you performed. But when players start checking how other party members do in pvp in middle of match. That's lead to hatered/rage and bootkicking.
Score board never ever reflected actual performance in pvp. One party member may have 20 kills.. At first it's seems good, but in reality he was only landing finishing blows, while other party member done most job. Also score board do not evalaute how player may used own CC abilities so you could land high damage, or used cc to protect you(CC enemy and now allowing to hit you).
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3) Pvp areas/maps.
Neverwinter online have so many areas which can be reused for pvp.
As example, Protector enclave or undermountain areas could be used for pvp. There are objects arround, thats Ok. Some one may use for tactical advantage. Either ambush or hide for attacks, someone may use higher grounds(cliff).
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4) Pvp types. :
Now thats whats I want to adress mostly.
There are players who like current pvp system, gear vs gear.. Alright I get it, you like it and you don't want changes.. But there are also players who want pvp.
So here is suggestions, add two type pvp.
Limmited and unlimited.
Limited = In pvp only players characters/class> At wills, class features, feats, encounters and daily powers goes.
No mount, no boons, not extra than class realated powers.
Now most important part the gear.
I played mmorpg game, when you join faction war, your daily pve gear got repalced with pvp set.
The set you compile via NPC/vendor, which offer list of gear parts which are tuned for pvp. Once you select scheme/build. It is applied once you enter faction war. Once war ending and you leave war map/area/instance that pvp gear got replaced with your daily pve gear.
The reason of this system where to keep pvp more balanced. Cuz some pve gear parts where too powerfull for pvp.
And nerfing them would made them irrelevant.
For Neverwitner limited pvp I want same system. So pvp would be closer to meta(to players side). In pvp will be matter of your Skills, combat experiance and team work.
Now other pvp type: Unlimited.
Mounts, companons, insignias efffects boons, all goes.
I can assure players who love current pvp system would like it this mode too.
So more less this would provide players to pick what kind pvp they want.. Closer to metal(action based).
Or as current system( gear focused).
Note: neverwinter online have loadout system, so to make this idea work would be less problematic.
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4) Pvp Modes.
Capture the flag is current domination mode..
lets add extra:
Duel (one vs one)
1) Class specific . - player fight only against own class players.
2) Random class - fight against random class.
Add small arena with some pillars and objects arround, and let players murder each other.
******************
Defend the boss.
Whole thing players have own boss/monster(npc) which need to be defended from other player. The winner are ones who defend own boss and kill opther team's bosses..
Note: boss must not be made from glass which shatter from one slap..
Now I have ideas how tune up guild/siege wars, but I will keep that for Stronghold CDP topic.
For now I think it's enough.. If happens there are elements which confusing, just let me know and I will try make it more clear..
best regards: Hades
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
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Feedback Overview:
Prioritize player experience; this includes addressing known issues, implementing new content and properly rewarding play.
Feedback Goal:
Supplement the game as it currently exists to expand the player base and improve player experience.
Proposed functionality:
I will break this sections into subsections for each area I mentioned.
1. Prioritize the elimination of broken PvP mechanics. The community knows what is game-breaking and the PC player tournament rules are evidence that we as players do wantthese items in-game, as-is. A short list of the most crucial items to address includes:
A. Sigil of the Paladin - this item may be unscaled in terms of healing and should be re-aligned in effectiveness.
B. Drains - these are generally not widely used among respectful players. But their existence deters people from playing. (Instead of removing completely / perhaps institute overloads, purchasable with glory, that can both drain and *fully* negate drains. If they could be properly countered I doubt people would have much of a problem with them)
C. I would like to mention the items which would have made this list; but have already been addressed - Control Wizards shields and the OP AP bug (I've heard a patch is incoming). Thank you very much for those changes.
****only concerns would be time and resources spent coding the changes
2.implementing new content:
I am not just referring to maps, but game types as well. I will focus on ideas outside of physical maps below:
A. Use existing maps to generate game types as events such as 3v3v3 king of the hill type matches where the hill could move after a certain number of points, or stay in the same central place.
B. Ultimately I would love to see a 2v2 or 3v3 que but I doubt the size of the community as it is today could stand being split. This is kind of a pipe dream idea.
C. A PvE version of PvP - I've seen this suggested before and I really liked it - teams que up for content and are pitted against another team through the same content (whether existing content - or new boss type encounters).
**obviously the concern would be time to code and develop - which is why I think the use of existing maps/content to generate new looks would be the best course of action.
3. Rewarding play/player experience:
A couple points here from gear to rewards.
A. I think the implementation of PvP specific gear that could be purchased with AD or Glory that have very high item levels in PvP, but not in PvE was a great idea. Why not build on that further. Instead of just gear what about insignias/ mounts / enchants / overloads ->(similar to the hell pit event) that only work in PvP content and have very little value outside. This could be earned through match currency like glory - or purchased with season reward currency and could really help bridge the gap for newer players trying to get in.
B. Rewards - I think the rewards for the season are going in the right direction - however I think the level of 10 is fairly low (especially for non weapon/armor enchants) I'm not sure if a new currency would be necessary, or to add things to the glory store such as enchanting stones for 10k glory, pres wards 5x for 10k glory things like that? (Account bound of course)
C. Player experience. As throngs stand currently: there either needs to be a minimum gear score to que for domination - or a split que in a reasonable area such as 20k with play above that being ranked on the leaderboards, subject to season rewards, and below 20k subject to only glory rewards - at a lower rate than the top Q.
*this is a frustrating point for many - mismatched games. It isn't fun for the 15k person who just got to 80 and wants to learn, and it isn't fair to the veterans playing who want a competitive game.
***the obvious concern would be players (the same one who use drains probably - lol) building toons specifically for play in the lower tier - you would have to have some kind of safeguard to keep this from happening - maybe playing in that Q would disqualify you for the current season rewards account wide? If the rewards are good enough that may be enough to deter..
D. Player experience. Kicks.
-this is another frustrating part of the game for both new players and veterans. in theory this shouldn't be used to kick people who are not playing, are throwing a game, or have disconnected. Today it is more often used as a way to remove the 18k player who is unable to survive more than 2 seconds in hopes of getting a better player and winning. I'm not sure what the best move is, but being repeatedly kicked from games doesn't help new players want to PvP, and only having 1 kick per 4 hours makes me, as a veteran, frustrated by repeatedly having the same undergeared players who die instantly and give up playing objectives and only 1 chance every 4 hours to rectify it. A tiered Q could help alleviate much of this issue and bring more people in from both sides as that issue becomes less prevalent.
**risks would be that the community couldn't sustain a tiered Q system, meaning the lower tier would never have games and the top tier would have fewer. But if you keep doing the same thing you have to expect the same results..
In closing; there's a lot of potential here. Against all odds the PvP community still exists after essentially no attention for literally most of the games existence. I think a little bit could go a long way here and appreciate your interest in making that happen!
1. I think something like a stronghold battle royale could be fun where you go in and loot powers from the ground like you would in other games.
2. I think something like a guild based stronghold raid could be fun. (but only for guilds that opt in) where you as a guild go in with a raiding party of at least ten or something like that and you choose your guild you're going to raid not alliance based but just over all. so if you have a beef with a certain guild you can go poke them. like the marauders event it pings people online to come defend their stronghold. if you win you get a portion of their coffer. if you lose they get a portion of yours. you could choose what you wanted to take and as a consolation a junk part like professions empties a bit as well without going anywhere. Maybe make the notification be alliance based to guard against people not having enough players on at any given time.
it would engage team spirit. help build coffers and help empty coffers in high end guilds, so people could donate more. Strongholds are a little stagnant at the moment.
negatives: if a lower guild that didn't realize there was an opt in or out button got raided it could hurt morale. it could be gamed. you could turn off the opt in after raiding someone else. there would need to be some kind of control on opting out for like a week after raiding someone else so they have a chance to make it even.
Reply to other comments:
I agree with all the comments about equalizing gear and powers. the only time I ever had fun with pvp in this game was going in as a level 30 players against other level 30 players.
I agree with the people who say that pve and pvp should be totally separate. There should be a pvp path available, IE. taking HR, the path choices should be hunter, warden or PVPMEISTER.
the gear should be totally different. extraneous stuff should be gotten rid of. no enchants, no wards, no overload slots, no special weapons (if you have a lion weapon adn the other guy has a green weapon they should both be normalized to do the same thing) the powers should be pretty much the same across all classes for balance purposes.
A Totaly separate PvP gear from PvE gear.
B PvP gear rotation but allow all players to get each gear without RNG and big grind.
C Sahha ball PvP idea.
D 4 PvP seasons active all year with Finale event in last one or two weeks for each one.
E PvP rewards.
F Seasons developement.
- PvP mode with item shop inside of it (start with bad gear and evolve it in fight).
- PvPvE dungeon/skirmish.
- Add ID campaing BHE in PvP area to counted for Legacy Campaings quests and add good weekly win reward to it.
- Mario cart type PvP race (Two maps (winter event, Nostura quest) are ready for it, just need few changes).
Feedback Goal
A - Easier to fix balance issues without breaking PvE - balance class items.
A - Add separate loadout for PvP.
A - Gear types Ability and Statistic.
A - Move PvP to 'skill' game type instead of 'gear' game.
B, D - Fix stagnation in PvP.
C - Sahha game with more action instead of common pausing.
E - Good reward for trying PvP first or few firsts fights as PvP advertisement (like 5xpward).
E,D - Four independent rewards per season: 1. Progress bar with rewards. 2. Season placement. 3. Final week/s PvP quests. 4. Final week/s tournament/s (group, solo, guild/alliance).
E - Add as reward something to increase bag size or PvP items bag or move something like insignias into bag.
E - Allow to put up to 5 miniatures for winning pose in PvP and winner announcer for season and final tournament.
E - Add emote: show up to 5 chosen miniatures as reward in PVP.
Feedback Functionality
A - In PvP leave only two type of items: Statistic only or ability only (maybe except weapons). Put all gear into Statistic and enchants into ability. Put artifacts in both categories but active don't give stats. Base PvP artifacts on all current artifacts, but: all have same item level and stats sum, F - rotate allowed artifacts as active between seasons to bring variety into PvP, add two ways to obtain them: copy real artifact as PvP and BtC orginal (with season rotations it brings more value to old artifacts and causes to run old dungeons) or buy PvP artifact available for current season in PvP shop. Remove mounts/mounts powers/insignias/insignias sets from PvP - but maybe bring them into in future mods or for few maps in PvP. Add enchants with abilities (like in current gear) to PvP shop, EF- rotate enchants available to use and buy in each Season. PvP enchants don't have ranks. No different item level PvP gear for other purpose than class balancing.
(my idea from previous CDP - separate enchants from items maybe would help with item organization for players)
Also adding separate page for PvP class skills helps with balancing class and allows to new players start PvP without 80 lvl.
F,D - Create auto-rotation mechanism for seasons with different maps available for them. (one or more maps for: solo queue, prepared-group queue, guild/aliance queue, joke/unusual/PvE gear PvP mode).
C - Base map - Illusionist gambit, map modification - resize if needed, add goals, add field texture. Base gameplay: same as normal sahha but with invisible walls that bounces ball instead of reposition game. Chaos gameplay: random gameplay with modifications: 3vs3vs3vs3, 2 balls, no reposition on scoring goal (new ball spawns in few seconds after it), ball on hitting wall teleports on axis (X, Y or both). Ultimate chaos gameplay: rules can change during the game (except teams count), walls on map (possible on different heights and with different sizes), goals ownership reversing.
Risks & Concerns
A Increase amount of items in inventory.
Feedback Goal: Please no further Situations like icewind dale in which you have to pick a faction to even go into PvE areas, and have PvP zones that cut into normal quest paths causing players to have to adjust routes so they don't accidentally get flagged to PvP while they are trying to quest. It also, repeatedly sounded like changes to PvE and class powers were made during Mod16 which negatively impacted PvE play. Please never do that again.
Feedback Functionality: I supply this in hopes that PvP will be less intrusive in future quest zones, and changes made on PvP's behalf do not ruin the fun of PvE. Keeping the 2 separate will foster better attitudes for both modes, PvP players will be there because they want to be, not because they got duped or coerced into it.
Risks & Concerns: i see no risks in this method of planning of PvP. A few times it felt like PvP was being pushed on me and i was very annoyed by it. I tend to stay away from Icewind Dale because i don't like having to dodge around sections of the map because i am literally not allowed out of Caer-konig unless i sign on play a game mode i don't enjoy.
I too wish to be recreated, and to be loved long after my death.
There's a lot here already (I have 2 pages of notes just from this first page of comments!) but there's a couple points brought up by various people that I'd love to hear more on:
1) Issue: Equalizing/Balancing the game/Making PvP more accessible but also not hurting/hindering/punishing long-time PvP players. I've heard some proposals like have different tiers/modes of PvP but could folks expand more on how they would approach the issue in a realistic way?
2) Solo Queue: This was actually a feature that was made permanent soon after I started at Cryptic. Initially it was offered as an occasional weekend event and a number of players clamored for it to be permanent. Could players on both sides of the argument (remove it/keep it) give specific examples on how it impacts the PvP landscape?
I should say I am a learner pvp-er in a guilld that has lots of veteran pvp-ers. I die a lot but I can still see the attraction and challenge of pvp. So assuming that the devs and the player base want to keep pvp as a feature of Neverwinter then obviously something has to change to get more players trying pvp.
Importantly I think a clear pathway is needed for beginners to try pvp and progress their skills at their own pace whilst having fun. Its no fun for a beginner to solo queue for 20 minutes only to be confronted by a premade group of vets that are farming boon points and wipes you out in the first 30 seconds of a match, not only is it no fun you dont learn anything. Similarly I would suggest the majority of vets prefer good matches over farming.
PvP Divisions
One solution that might address the issues above is to have stratified pvp divisions a bit like those that exist in football (thats soccer for our American friends
So purely as an example lets say their are 3 divisions. div3 (lowest), div2 and div3 (highest) for pvp-player scores between 0 -100, 101 -199 and 200 -300 respectively. This banding system pretty much guarantees players always play teams whose members have similar pvp skill levels to theirs regardless of whether they queue as a premade or solo queue.
This in turn means that both beginners and vets have the opportunity to have good fun matches. No gross mismatches anymore. As players get more experience and successes their pvp player score increases so eventually a player in div3 with a pvp score of 70 will increase their a pvp player score to over 100 at which time they will be automatically moved into the more challenging div2 and will not have access to play in div3 or div1 .. you get the idea
Boons
Sticking with the example above if you had 3 divisions then it would make sense to have 3 levels of boons. In Div 3 (lowest) you can only get level 1 boons, Div2 only level 2 boons and Div 1 only level 3 (highest) boons. You would just have to make sure that the pvp player points needed to get all the boons in a division did not exceed the upper banding limit for a division to ensure players could earn all the boons in a division before being transferred to the next (higher) division
Class Composition of teams
Emotive topic but imho only 1 of each class allowed in a team might be the best compromise to provide matches that required a reasonable balance of tactical skills in rotations as well as firepower and survivability
InHouses
I know several guilds like to run inhouse matches purely for fun or as a way of training guildess. Under the banding system above vets could not play in mixed teams with less experienced players because of the banding restrictions. My suggestion have a specific division for this lets give it the imaginative name of div0. In Div 0 no points or boons can be earned and teams can have any class composition or player level but introduce a new feature solely for the div0 queue namely pvp invites where one team leader can invite another team leader in the queue to join them for a pvp match rather than having random matchups of teams in the div0 queue.
I don't know if there is anyway to equalize pvp without hurting long term pvp players but there are so few of them that it seems like an acceptable step to take to make the genre accessible to everyone else and give it the wider player base that would make something like solo que viable again.
Most of the gear for pvp is just as viable in pve so the reality is that by changing the balance no one is going to take any kind of huge loss on their build. there are so few pvp players that pvp specific gear is dirt cheap still
Here's my 2c:
Feedback Overview
Queue and reward rework.
Feedback Goal
Motivate both casual and endgame players to play PvP.
Feedback Functionality
- Solo queue should be more casual-friendly, how:
1. gear: make it scaled (ie: enchantments to r10, no legendary mounts powers, etc)
2. rewards: should not count for leaderboard, but instead providing RP, PvP only gear (even rings and weapons) with specific PvP bonuses, and on wins giving rough AD
That means that if I was a casual player I would queue for solo without the risk of being farmed by BiS players or, even worse, get kicked, while having rewards worth the time spent, same as PvE random queues.
- Domination and Gauntlgrym: This kind of queue should be reserved to the endgame players:
1. gear: minimum (PvP) gear score should be required
2. rewards: these queue should count for leaderboard, with improved rewards from the first places. NCL has been recalled in previous post and not expecting a legendary mount but a rank 10 enchantment is not enough for an endgamer and current leaderboard system is discouraging keeping on playing once you get at some rank.
As a generic QoL improvement, somebody already mentioned many of them:
- removing the kick option from queue is needed: it discourage new players queue for PvP. An automatic way, like after 1 minute afk/disconnected could be a great replacement.
- Rework matchmaking: I don't know current code but happened quite often to be in party with 4 healers vs a team with 0, that can't be WAI.
- As a long term goal, please consider to add a stronger separation from PvP/PvE, mainly concerning gear/boons/potions/consumables and classes magnitudes. That will help managing future developments easily.
Speaking about balance, want to add that having classes that can use a shield on shift or heal encounter/daily on a dps spec is making harder the balance process by far.
Risks & Concerns
As mentioned in a previous post about reward and progression, having a gear specific for different contest makes necessary a system allowing to linking the enchantment setup on the loadout, and not to gear, removing the gold cost.
Feedback Overview
* Disallow PvE Items in PvP.* No PvE Artifacts, only "Stat Sticks" from PvP store, maybe some PvP only Artifacts for active that can be balanced for PvP (i.e. no Paladin Sigil, means you don't need to nerf it for PvE).
* No PvE Weapons, etc.
* Create PvP only loadouts.
* Can only queue for PvP with PvP items and in a PvP loadout.
* PvP Items bag doesn't mix with our normal bags, like vanity pet tab.
* Only PvP boons are active.
* Gain PvP items from PvPing.
* (Besides pvp-gear and pvp-boons) Only gain Stats from Enchants and Mount Buff/Mount Powers, no insignias or insignia bonuses (e.g. survivor's blessing self heals).
* Rewards come naturally by giving PvP items/consumables/boons/Currency. Give some rAD, like Half the amount for Random queues vs. time playing.
* Keep Solo Queue, but implement proper tiers based on stat levels. "Build it and they will come"
* Powers and Feats should have different functionality in PvE/PvP. Take time to code in a way that they can be changed or the different functionality added easily, devs know their solid principles and common patterns (I hope), we should be able to get rapid adjustments to the meta in pvp that doesn't affect pve, like, at all.
* Balance Powers and Feats in PvP, for PvP
* Maybe one or two other modes if time depending, but fix other stuff first.
Did I fill up a year's scheduled for a dev yet? No? Ok.
* ... jk ...
Feedback Goal
Almost completely Decouple PvP from PvE. Should make it easier to make a new game to if you go that route. But why would you need to? Except for maybe using a totally different engine. A new PvP version would be akin to a big-bang rewrite which I don't think is justified at all when you can achieve strong decoupling already following some design patterns that fit your needs. I guess if it made business sense to do it, then ok.Feedback Functionality
The bullet-points.Risks and Concerns
Only real concern is the amount of refactoring it might take to decouple PvP from PvE. The other is some people don't like change.My thought is for there to be PVP related metrics that move players up or down a division. Perhaps use the existing points system or make something new. I don’t necessarily think win / loss should or shouldn’t count as that is very group dependent. Individual, assists, kills, deaths, HP lost, HP healed, damage mitigated, damage dealt, etc. can be used to positively and negatively impact a player’s score. This calculated score will assign a player a rank, then place them in divisions. Since each class is different the formula will have to be calculated different to arrive at the same rank. I envision a system where if you do well you move up and if you do poor you move down (with a range of staying where you are). Honestly, I have no clue how something like this could be done.
I think the highest priority for PVP is growing the player count. I believe that starts with players having a fighting chance of enjoying themselves.
Enjoyment > Rewards
I think there should be purchasable PVP gear that, depending on the number of ranks, ranks up with you for a bit similar to Ensorcelled gear. So if the fresh level 80 wants an advantage in lower ranks, they can quickly do that. There should be currency earned through PVP to buy gear from a vendor. PVP gear can have a minimum rank assigned. So, if you drop ranks your gear isn’t overpowered, but is usable again when you rank up.
Along with specific gear I would like to see a separate gear equip screen / feat / skill / boon / attribute / etc. for each class for PVP. I want a PVE toon to feel different from a PVP toon. I think players are smart enough to understand they essentially have two games in one.
Jade - Cleric - Healer Main - The Freak Core - Xbone
Magnus - Fighter - Tank for queues - The Freak Core - Xbone
Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Bardholomew - Bard - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Sirona - Cleric - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Jade - DC - Shadows of Gauntlgrym - PC
Feedback Goal - one healer (no matter class) per team
Feedback Functionality - there must be some algorithm to how teams are created. Modify it so one healing spec class per team unless Q can fill 2 healing spec's per team.
Risks & Concerns - healer might have to wait to play
Feedback Overview - Solo Q
Feedback Goal - team balance
Feedback Functionality - there must be some algorithm to how teams are created. Modify it so players are ranked and distributed evenly between teams (after healer spec characters are assigned to teams)
Risks & Concerns - open to players gaming the system with new characters etc (maybe attach ranking to gamer tag)
Feedback Overview - Healing
Feedback Goal - level the playing field so healers are not in perma god mode
Feedback Functionality - not sure how it would work but slowing the healing rate or magnitude in pvp would be a start
Risks 7 Concerns - healers would have to do something other then stand at a node and if might create more dynamic game play that would increase the pvp population fun meter
Feedback Overview - Leaderboard
Feedback Goal - win/loss ratios can be skewed depending on team composition and does not reflect play effort.
Feedback Functionality - have points for the leaderboard awarded along the lines of the current pvp system (ie capping nodes, kills, assists) and add in points for activity to encourage gameplay even if (as it often is) a very lopsided affair
Risks & Concerns - would need to remaster the coding and recording of player points in a match.
Oh and if you could fix the constant crashing on xbox that kicks you out for losses that would be great as well.
Thanks!