This feedback goes over the implementation of PvP Campaign and Seasons, describes some of their design flaws and proposes solutions to them.
Feedback Goal
A proper campaign can serve as a good introduction to PvP while seasons are what helps keep the day-to-day PvP going. Implementing this feedback would make those systems fulfill their roles better.
Feedback Functionality
Campaign
As with most systems introduced after M16, this campaign is a very simplified version of the original one. In this state where the PvP queue pops rarely, it’s fairly difficult to complete it, especially the 100 wins task.
Boons which come with this campaign are fine and need no adjustment.
The campaign rewards large amounts of glory, which would theoretically make sense in a healthy PvP gear system. Now however, this glory is useless as all the glory gear is once again outdated. There is a decent amount of rough AD offered – a title, fashion item or something along those lines would make more sense.
Similarly to what PvE campaigns have with dungeon keys, there could be a repeatable task here as well. That’s where rough AD as a reward would be reasonable.
Seasons
Seasons are something implemented as an attempt to help horrible queue times. Initially, they were a big success (we could see 4 or more instances of PvP at peak, up from usually 0 or 1), unfortunately everything quickly went back to where it was originally.
The major problem that seasons have is that everything that currently motivates people to play PvP is tied to them. This means that after 4 weeks of a season, the 2 week break completely kills PvP (again, 0-1 instances at peak). An obvious solution is to reduce the 2 week break to one week. Perhaps some of the rewards (such the per-match ones I have proposed in my Rewards post) could be separated from seasons to improve this futher.
Risks & Concerns
Neither of those proposed ideas come with any risks except for development time, which could definitely be used for more important PvP issues. With the amount of resources that have typically been allocated to PvP, I’d only make the season downtime change. Adjustments to campaign, unless taken much more broadly so as to convert it to an introductory/tutorial system, are just a luxury and should not be prioritized.
This feedback describes the implications of adding new PvP modes. It also goes over one of the most important aspects of PvP “friendliness” towards PvE players and newcomers – queuing up together with friends.
Feedback Goal
Prevent devs from focusing on the wrong issues in PvP. Offer a solution to the solo queue vs group queue dilemma.
Feedback Functionality
Solo queue and group queue
I believe this to be a vital topic for the future of PvP. Further discussion on this topic is very much appreciated.
Currently, the only way to play PvP is via solo queue. It was introduced a long time ago in an attempt to improve match quality and prevent certain players from running full BiS premades just to stomp newcomers. This way, the social or teamwork part of the experience was nearly completely removed from PvP. As a result of that, a lot of players quit PvP or the game.
It’s true that in terms of match quality or balance, in games with matchmaking, solo queue will produce the best results (with the exception of organized premade vs premade). Neverwinter however is not suited for this, and therefore, it’s better to sacrifice a tiny bit of match quality to preserve the social aspect of PvP. With that said, it’s also clear that implementing something like this right now would not work, it would kill PvP within a few weeks.
There is a solution to this issue. It relies on those concepts:
there is enough people queuing up – with different party sizes, the matchmaking algorithm has to do more of mixing and matching;
the power differences between players (gear gap if you will) are relatively small;
the game has a relatively low skill ceiling, i.e. to be at the same mechanical level as veteran players, a dedicated newcomer only needs say a few months.
At the moment, 1 and 2 are not met. 3 is a constant that is true especially from M16 and onwards. By focusing on 2 first, along with some other meta/general PvP changes, 1 should improve on its own. Once conditions 2 and 3 are met, solo queue should be removed and PvP should once again have only one queue (the original, unrestricted one). Finally as a result of those and other good changes, 1 will be satisfied automatically.
Those that remember the days of when “premade pug stomping” was rampant will know the true nature of it – it was BiS players forming those premades, not skilled BiS players. Being in a full premade with voice comms is an advantage yes, but it doesn’t make the opposing team helpless even if it’s 5 players who queued up solo, assuming the three requirements mentioned are met. I remember running as a trio into full premades in those days and usually all it took was the 2 people outside of my trio listening and the match was easily winnable.
Different PvP modes
As we’ve seen (PvP focused players) with the recent addition of stardock arena, changes like this are a waste of time for the devs. For me and most veterans, this map should just not have been added at all. I believe the same thing applies to modes. Domination is what defines PvP in NW and it is how it should stay. I’m not against adding more modes, perhaps there is a large group of players interested in say CTF, but as I see it, that’s more of a luxury addition more suitable for a very good, healthy PvP.
Open world PvP was pretty big when it was introduced, but by design it suffered from problems, most importantly companions. These not only very significantly improve the already ridiculously huge power gap, but they also pose a balance problem that is likely impossible to solve with the resources available.
Risks & Concerns
The solo vs group queue topic is absolutely essential to the future of PvP. It mainly depends on accessibility and gear gap reduction, which have to be seriously improved before any progress can be made with this.
Adding more modes to PvP is something that may require a lot of resources. Based on the current state of PvP, I’d recommend focusing on fixing what exists rather than adding something new.
This feedback describes how to improve PvP meta and make it more balanced while having no negative effect on PvE.
Feedback Goal
Improve PvP meta especially in terms of too low or too high time-to-kill.
Feedback Functionality
This has always been a very problematic aspect of the game. The “meta” in both parts of the game is completely different, so balancing classes, items and the rest is not easy.
With the game simplification of M16, the path to balancing both at once is much clearer. There will always be some issues that are difficult to fix. As a quick example, dps DC can build very tanky and still have similar or higher burst than a lot of dps focused classes that build glass cannon. In PvE, this evens out over time; in current PvP meta, burst is way more important than dps and this makes the spec overpowered.
Most of those issues can however be solved rather easily and with low effort. Class differences and uniqueness have been dramatically reduced in M16, to the point where balancing specific class mechanics for PvP is no longer as necessary. Instead, it is enough to just target the PvP meta globally.
Anyone who has been around for a while knows that Tenacity used to do most of what we need in PvP right now. Current implementation should include:
increased healing depression to 35% (note that current healing depression is 20%);
reduced critical damage by 20%;
crowd control resistance as a replacement for the buggy, unreliable cc stack system (which is an outdated band-aid fix to oppressor CW and trapper HR).
As for separation of PvP (potentially even from the rest of the game, as Chris mentioned in a recent stream), I’m not a fan of this idea. The general social setting and persistence of the world is what competitive PvP-only games cannot offer. And this is why I like about playing PvP here – I can play a few matches, then go chat with others, run a dungeon with friends, mess around in PE, join a guild together. Competitive games are restricted only to the matches themselves and a friendlist with chat.
Risks & Concerns
Implementing tenacity as described will likely require a few tiny patches later to adjust the numbers. It’s not easy to get them right on the first attempt, but then again, it means just changing a few numbers.
Apologies for this wall of text. For anyone who wishes to read the posts all in one place (including one on motivation and purpose of PvP which I left out), you can do so here: https://hackmd.io/@gweddry/rytaCuA4U. Thank you!
So i am new to PvP, But i would like to see a total revamp of all pvp armor & weapon sets - listed below
(SOLO PVP TIER GEAR SETS)
1. I Would like to see each tier of armor have its own currency marks to collect for each set of gear / weapon sets. From campaign currency's or Randoms, Lair or Guild Que match's.
• Tier 1 - Common - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc. • Tier 2 - Rare - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc. • Tier 3 - Epic - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc. • Tier 4 - Legendary - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
(SOLO PVP WEAPON SETS) •Tier 1 - common - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc. •Tier 2 - Rare - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc. •Tier 3 - Epic -Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc. •Tier 4 - Legendary - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
(NOTES) - As you gather better pvp gear enchantment slots will open like Common & Rare 0 slots Epics 1 slot Legendary 2 slots - PVE Gear Should never be used in pvp Period. - All tier based gear & pvp weapons should be stat based only. No Ability attached to gear. - Enchantments - Can be used but not effect the item level of character. - Insignia's - Can be used but not effect the item level of character. - Mounts - Can be used but not effect the item level of character. - Artifact's - Can be used but not effect the item level of character. - PvP Weapon sets - Can be used but can increase item level of character. No Ability attached to weapon sets. • This way it makes a clean PvP leveling atmosphere for all players while they are leveling up there gear / weapon sets. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (PvP Que's Remastered)
2. I would like to see 3 different PvP Que's one called (PVP LAIRS) & one called (PVP RANDOMS) & one called (GUILD RANDOMS)
(PVP LAIRS) • Is for players who are leveling up there gear & Weapon sets ether through the campaign or Lair Que's. That way the newer pvp players don't get (RIP) by veteran players.
(PVP Randoms) • Is for those who have completed the PvP campaign & Acquired the boons & legendary Tier / Weapon sets.
(PVP GUILD RANDOMS) • This is only Que-able with guild mates & is separate from Lair Ques & Random Ques Guilds could create there own cloaks based on there teams colors and etc.
anyone want to add to guild pvp go for it i could care less (solo PvP for life!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (LEADER BOARDS)
3. Leader boards for Should only be for. • PvP Lair's Ques << Is Strictly leveling up gear / weapons only (Not for leader board) • PvP Solo Randoms • PvP Guild Randoms --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(STRONGHOLD PVP STUFF) << should never be mixed with Lair Ques or Random Ques. Just strictly Guild Random Ques
(Guild Tier Sets) • Tier 1 - Common - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc. • Tier 2 - Rare - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc. • Tier 3 - Epic - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc. • Tier 4 - Legendary - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
(Guild PvP weapon sets) •Tier 1 - common - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc. •Tier 2 - Rare - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc. •Tier 3 - Epic -Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc. •Tier 4 - Legendary - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
Notes _ PVE gear and weapon sets should not be used in Guild pvp Ques - Guild Armor / weapon sets should never cross over to Randoms or Lair ques Or vice versa. - All PvP Guild based gear & weapons should be stat based only. No Ability attached to gear. - Enchantments - Can be used but not effect the item level of character. - Insignia's - Can be used but not effect the item level of character. - Mounts - Can be used but not effect the item level of character. - Artifact's - Can be used but not effect the item level of character. -Guild PvP Weapon sets - Can be used but can increase the item level of character. No Ability attached to Weapon sets. • This way it makes a clean PvP leveling atmosphere for all players while they are leveling up & there Guild gear / weapon sets.
There is whole lot more that can be said here but i know not everyone will agree with me but let me know what you like differant from this revamp of pvp
On behalf of all serious PvP players on Xbox I am writing this in the hopes that some one at Cryptic will read. Our request is simple, please fix the crashing issue in Domination asap or reset the leaderboard to reflect games that were affected by the constant "high intensity" crashing. You want to fix PvP but if your game is not stable and win/losses are based on who doesn't crash the most then there really is nothing to go on. All we want right now is a sable gaming environment to play.
one thing I will add to what @tankready#0772 said is bring back the tenacity stat to pvp gear. PVP started dying out on console when tenacity was taken out of pvp gear and pve gear became the best for pvp. nothing separated the pvp setups from pvp and some of the equipment is pretty OP in pvp so now people want that instead of trying to get their build right.
The season event and boons overhaul did introduce some decent rewards to PVP for first time in a while. However, as many others have mentioned, these rewards are not enough by themselves to add meaningful gear progression to PVP. The value of the rewards isn't even close to covering the time spent to obtain them.
As countless players have pointed out, all gear related progression for PVP requires you to either grind PVE content or pay a lot of money/AD. You pretty much need to be maxed out in PVE before you'll have the resources you need to actually do well in PVP. This makes no sense and is a major obstacle to getting more people interested in PVP.
Proposed Solutions to the Above Issues:
Idea #1: Repeatable milestone tasks with repeatable rewards:
A long time favorite idea of mine is to add repeatable milestone tasks to the PVP campaign. Each time you complete these repeatable tasks, you also get some good rewards.
These tasks would be similar to the current tasks but would include some new tasks, here are some examples I cooked up:
Win 100 domination matches: Get 2 coal wards
Kill 1000 enemies while standing on a node: Get 10 mark of potency rank 7's
Outheal the other team's healers in 500 matches: Gain 5 r12 enchantment choice packs, 3 stacks of PVP 99 heal potions, and a 42 slot bag of holding. You also gain a title the first time you complete this task.
Revive 300 allies: get 5 stacks of 99 PVP heal potions and a small bag of holding
Win 100 guantlgrym matches: Get a recolored howler mount and a title the first time you complete this task. Each future completion grants a stack of 99 pres wards.
Cap 800 nodes in guantlgrym: Get a stack of 99 potions of speed and a title the first time you complete this task. Repeats of this task grant 30 potions of speed and 3 mark of potency rank 5.
Idea #2 Update the vendors in the trade of blades with better rewards:
Update the glory stores in the trade of blades with good rewards. I would recommend releasing more gear that works the same way the current imperator gear set does. I want to see rings, enchantments, gear, and insignias that activate their stats only when you are on a PVP map. The best rings sold in these stores should be as good as the best rings available from the latest raid. The enchantments should have r13 stats in PVP and the insignias should have epic or legendary stats in PVP. These stores should also sell some mounts, including at least one epic mount.
It is also very important for there to be a basic set of PVP gear you can buy for 1 copper. This basic set should provide enough stats to allow you to compete with people who have the BIS gear. BIS gear should be a significant enough improvement for people to want it but it shouldn't be so powerful that you must have it.
The very best gear sold in these stores should require currency from both domination and guantlgrym to buy. I would also suggest an epic mount that also requires currency from both of these PVP types to buy.
Idea #3: Fix a minor bug with one of the PVP boons:
The PVP boons are good as is other than the fact that the 15% speed capstone boon is bugged/not working still. My only request for the boons is to fix that one boon that isn't working.
Foreseen rewards implementation risks and concerns:
I decided not to suggest any ideas above that grant rewards directly from matches because of them being the most easy form of rewards to mess up or exploit. I went the indirect route for all my above suggestions. I want to emphasize that if any rewards are added to the loot tables for the matches directly, anything good needs to only be granted from winning matches. Don't offer many participation rewards, I would suggest offering only glory for lost matches. This will prevent the issues we had in the past with PVE only players queing in to get the minimum points they needed to get rewarded and then going AFK at their team's expense.
I will also mention how the bind status for these rewards should work. -- For my milestone tasks suggestion, it should be safe to leave most or all of these rewards unbound. A few suggestions like the recolored howler mount and speed potions may be better to make bind to character on pickup. -- For the improved trade of blades vendor rewards, most or all of this stuff should be bound to account. This will prevent botters from botting glory to buy these rewards.
A very late edit: With the above in mind I mentioned about rewards, I would like to further clarify that the best system may be to only provide any kind of direct match rewards for the regular/premade allowing que. Both ques would have the indirect rewards systems but the regular/premade que would also grant some rewards directly from winning matches. The benefit of making it so the solo que doesn't grant any rewards directly from matches is that it further discourages players in the solo que from kicking to win.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
@trgluestickz Why it does make no sense to be maxed out in PvE to be good in PvP? It actually does not make any sense your way. So I can 1 shot the beholder but I might not win against fresh out of the Undermoutain adventurer? Do you know what a beholder can do? Look it up. . 1.Either you propose a sumo fight were everybody is wearing a cloth. So PvP gear progression is useless in this model. Everybody would get the standard cloth when entering the match.
2.Either you propose a normal fight so why your character would have an Alzheimer attack when seeing other player? So pvp gear progression is useless in this model too. . In my suggestion PvP gear does not exist , problem is solved by matching same level guilds. PvP is used to progress PvE and rebuild guilds and alliances bounds in a way that make sense as world building. .
Ehhh?
Edit: After some time trying to figure out what you are trying to say, here is my answer. You start out with a "standard" cloth under my suggestion but this cloth doesn't max you out, its just to get you started at a reasonable point where you don't get crushed into dust due to disgustingly inadequate gear. My suggestion offers some unbound items from the milestone tasks you can sell to get the AD for the things that aren't in the PVP stores or to upgrade to higher rank items.
Approaching this from your d&d logic view point about why should someone who can beat up a beholder not be able to beat up an adventurer, I'd say the adventurer is significantly scarier than a beholder. I dunno if you noticed but the things adventurers can do in this game are op as hell, they are like gods. Also, you still can beat up the beholder too since you can progress a character through both PVE and PVP under my suggestions, its not like you are literally restricted to playing one or the other, my suggestions are simply intended to make it more viable for PVP characters to earn a living through PVP instead of having to go to PVE to get everything or whip out your wallet.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
lordaeolosMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 167Arc User
Good day, I'm going to break the typical formatting and focus on problems, to be honest I haven't seen solutions that I really like to some of the problems I've seen with PvP.
As a disclaimer, I'm going to admit that I haven't spent any serious time playing PvP in Neverwinter since before M4, I've only dabbled enough to have my PvP prejudices formed since M4 further cemented. I do not plan to seriously give PvP any serious time investment without some major changes. But I feel very nostalgic for some of the Best highlights of the Games PvP golden age in M2 and M3.
Problems I see with Current PvP (just my opinion) 1. High cost to play - Players need to make huge investment just to be allowed to play a match to completion (unless it's a private match, but then there is no reward) - High cost includes time spent in PvE farming RNG for the right gear, but also spending currency to get the "right" items up to a high enough level, not spending in the "right" areas is the difference between getting smashed, or doing the smashing... it's not even close - I'm not calling this a high cost to compete, because frankly, in the current state of the community, if you are not competing, you get kicked, in fact even if you are competing and doing your part you might get kicked anyway to make room for a particular groups buddies. - A brand new to PvP but otherwise extremely skilled player cannot walk into a PvP match and have an experience other than staring at the floor after 3 seconds of combat
2. Hacky/ Meta play valued above skill and teamwork - for a multitude of reasons certain party configurations are clearly superior and sought after in matches - Some Items in game (like paladins sigil) over perform in PvP and give advantages to players or teams - I would agree that class balance is probably the best it's been for PvP since early game mods, but it still has a ways to go
3. PvP / PvE interchange buff/nerf cycle - This cycle has had multiple iterations, new item comes to PvE, PvP players exploit it, PvP players complain, Item gets nerfed to the point it is no longer useful for PvE (reverse is true)
4. PvP community "Eats it's own" on a regular basis - One of the single biggest reasons people cite for not playing PvP/ stopping to play PvP is community toxicity - There will always be some toxicity as long as player vs player competition exists, but a number of factors in game really highlight this flaw in the community
5. Stale game modes/ no variety - All the PvP game modes (including siege) are a flavor of domination. - Where is deathmatch, team death match, capture the flag, race, etc?
6. There have been multiple PvP centered updates and patches to the game, and none of them have made a significant impact to the quality/quantity of PvP gameplay - Maybe this is me being pessimistic, but my perception is that the PvP community has always been a fraction of the player base, and the focus/ investment to date has largely been wasted, is PvP in this game worth actually saving? or would investments be better spent making more PvE content, and bringing back Founderies? - I do understand that PvP game play tends to bring the most Marketing on platforms like Twitch, but has a Cost/ Value assessment actually been done for PvP in this game?
Some knee jerk reaction ideas that I like to bring PvP back:
1. Eliminate ALL PvE items from PvP. - This includes: enchantments, artifacts, mount powers, mount insignia bonus and gear.
2. I prefer the idea "naked PvP" where everyone has the same gear/ stats for the role they are playing - if this isn't feasible then create a PvP only progression system, with a separate inventory, basically completely disconnect PvE from PvP
3. Better skill matching system - This is a chicken or the egg problem, we can't have better matching without more players, but we won't get more players without better matching - this is exasperated by matching systems that don't balance roles in matches
"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
@nitocris83 I will address your specific questions below.
1. Balance/experience: -I think the path of least resistance forward is to make PvP gear that is better suited for PvP than most of the top PvE gear available. Tenacity could be reinstated to make the gear essential. This immediately evens the playing field. -offering PvP specific rewards purchasable with glory, season rewards (or zen?), such as insignias that only function as legendary in PvP (the basics - not the new brutality etc.) enchants that increase in value when flagged for PvP, as well as overloads (like hell pit - +5% damage, +5% hitpoints etc.) that are only active when flagged for PvP. -Putting an Item level minimum (similar to epic content) on PvP. This would have to eliminate the consideration of companions; if this would be possible an item level of 17,000 - 18,000 should have a minimum of gear to be relevant. **important to not calculate companions as these give tons of item level with no benefit to PvP.
2. Solo Q: when this was originally adopted - it saved what was left of PvP, and allowed it to limp along in a slow decline. I used to love solo Q; now I'm starting to agree that it is a killer.
-I think the way forward is to bring back a focus on team work, and communication.
That being said, I am torn between the two - it almost feels as if one cannot coexist with the other.. more competitive people would come back if the solo Q left, but I don't know that it would produce the level of activity (Q pops) that solo does, not sure if the community could sustain moving away from solo,
Solution?: Perhaps it could be tested moving solo Q back to an event - with increased frequency? If the effects are positive - keep rolling, if they are negative - find a new path forward.
First Issue and Solutions: The State of PVP Balance Between Damage/Tankyness/Healing and The Lack of Global Tenacity:
In mod 16, everyone was too tanky. When mod 17 came out, the pendulum swung the other direction and now everyone is much squishier. At first, I thought mod 17 made everyone too squishy but as we adjusted, it became apparent that tankyness is still a thing albeit much less extreme than it used to be. It no longer feels like there is too much damage or too much tankyness in PVP and its actually very close to balanced right now. The damage is high enough to make combat feel much more refreshing than it has at any other point in recent memory.
There are still a few minor tweaks that need to happen to get the damage/tankyness/healing in PVP even closer to balanced. Global tenacity was taken out entirely in mod 17 except for a little bit of healing depression, this was an improvement over how things were before since the old global tenacity buff values were outdated, but there are still some adjustments that should be added back in the form of global tenacity.
Right now, healing in PVP is still a little too strong. Healing depression needs to be increased some and there are a few items like paladin sigil that still overpreform and need a nerf.
Damage from critical hits is also a little too high. Right now, leaving the full strength crits in helps us deal with the excessive healing but if healing depression is increased, critical damage would also need to be lowered a little bit globally. Probably in the form of critical severity reduction.
Control effects in PVP are currently very long but this isn't really the issue, the issue is that many CCs still are buggy and don't respect some or all immunity frames and dodges. If these bugs got fixed, it would be fine to leave CCs with their current long durations in PVP. If fixing the CC bugs proves to be too difficult, then adding back some CC resistance in the form of global tenacity is necessary. If global CC resistance is added back in, then the outdated CC immunity stacks system that is currently in place should be removed.
Implementation Risks and Concerns:
You want to be careful not to overdo the healing depression or critical severity reduction, a little goes a long way and I don't want to see us return to a state where everyone is too tanky. I would suggest looking at @gweddry 's proposed global tenacity values as he has essentially the same suggestion but with a better understanding of what the exact numbers for the tenacity values should be.
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Second Issue: RNG Currently Plays Too Big of a Role In Deciding Fight Outcomes:
A downside to the mod 16 overhaul is that the skill ceiling is now being lowered too much by RNG factors in fights. You can outplay the hell out of your opponent and be doing everything right but often will still lose fights due to simply getting unlucky with your critical hits, your deflects, random procs, ect.
Proposed Solutions to the Above Issue:
I am not really sure what all to propose to fix this, I only recently became more aware of this issue; but it definitely needs to be mentioned. The more skilled you get as a player, the more you start to notice this issue.
I like that I now have an incentive to stack critical strike again but it does account for pehaps more of your damage than it should. The critical severity depression I suggested above may help with this issue some but an alternative may be to lower crit damage by significantly more than that first suggestion and increase the damage of regular hits to balance that out.
For deflects and other random procs I'm even less sure of what to suggest, I would need more time to think on this and don't expect this issue to be fixed anytime soon.
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Third Issue: Shadowclad enchantment acting as improvised tenacity
Shadowclad enchantment is in weird place right now when it comes to PVP balance; its undeniably op as hell but its also currently preforming some crucial roles needed for balanced PVP under our current system. Shadowclad currently covers all your deflection chance needs and also offers a big chunk of damage resistance. If you were to suddenly nerf it without changing anything else, it is very likely everyone would be taking too much damage and PVP would no longer be so close to balanced. Shadowclad is also currently acting as a buffer to prevent the accuracy stat from being too op. If everyone was only stacking deflect in stat form, accuracy would almost certainly be too strong in a PVP setting.
Its obviously not ideal for PVP balance to revolve around the one enchantment to rule them all but its thankfully not an urgent issue to address. If the devs ever intend for other armor enchantments like elven to become viable again, this issue will need to be tackled.
Proposed Solution:
This issue I'm not sure of how to fix. Thankfully it can be put on the backburner for now, its not urgent but does still deserve a mention.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
Out of all the new modes/gimmicks that could be added to PVP, the spectator mode is the most appealing one for me. It is no secret that loads of people love watching people play games and sports. A spectator mode is also likely to drum up a lot more interest in PVP and could inspire more people to try it out, it is fantastic advertising for PVP.
Description: A spectator mode is when you give players the ability to watch PVP matches take place live via a game option instead of using outside programs like twitch.
A spectator mode for this game ideally would allow you to watch any match currently in progress if you so choose. Maybe private matches should also have option for the que leader to disable spectating but all public PVP matches can be spectated.
Another option would be to have a Colosseum where spectating can take place.
It also could be option to have spectating be connected to the players playing the match where if you spectate, you are watching from the perspective of one of the players instead of watching the whole match from the bleachers or above.
Goal Of This Proposal:
Provide a fun new feature for PVP that will make PVP more visible to people playing neverwinter. This should drum up more interest in PVP even from people who don't want to actually play PVP. This should also lead to more people being inspired to try playing PVP and will make it easier for players to learn how PVPers play by observation, which should make learning how to play PVP easier. It would also likely increase support for PVP's existence and updates made to PVP.
Forseen Implementation Issues:
This is likely to be one of the more resource and develop time heavy updates that could be made to PVP. Spectator mode isn't already programmed into the game and would need to be built. If possible to get the time and resources for it, its probably worth it.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
Hey everyone - I really appreciate all of this feedback and suggestions.
I have a question for you folks though, based on your current opinion of PvP.
If you do not play PvP, what do you feel it would take to get you to try it out for a bit?
If you do occasionally play PvP, What do you feel it would take to make it more of a daily routine for you?
If you play PvP frequently, do you feel like the time you spent in there isn't wasted? And if so, what do you feel would make your time investment feel more respected?
Again, thank you everyone for your posts. I love seeing this discussion.
@Ankhorn. NW Player Since August 2019. Upper-Middle-Noob
My PVP FEEDBACK Part II
Feedback Overview (short description of the proposed feedback)
A daily, bi-daily or even repeatable Stronghold Quest granting XP, Gold, Guild Marks and [Insert PVP Reward].
Feedback Goal (what this feedback would target and accomplish)
To motivate players to do regular PVP queues and raise the active pvp player base.
Feedback Functionality (how would your feedback work in relation to the current design of Neverwinter).
Simply add a daily quest in the stronghold to familiarize people with pvp, exposing them to more of it, by making pvp part of everyone’s daily routine.
This is exactly what motivates people to do daily dungeon and trial queues. Astrals and rewards. It even motivates underpowered toons to try and sneak into LOMM.
Risks & Concerns (what problems can you foresee with implementing your feedback that you would like input on from members of this subforum)
This would have to be in tandem with any number of other improvements or we will simply have more frustrated players.
I really don’t see any risk. It seems extremely easy to implement by my admittedly uninformed estimation. Equally easy to edit or remove too, I would think.
Hey everyone - I really appreciate all of this feedback and suggestions.
I have a question for you folks though, based on your current opinion of PvP.
If you do not play PvP, what do you feel it would take to get you to try it out for a bit?
If you do occasionally play PvP, What do you feel it would take to make it more of a daily routine for you?
If you play PvP frequently, do you feel like the time you spent in there isn't wasted? And if so, what do you feel would make your time investment feel more respected?
Again, thank you everyone for your posts. I love seeing this discussion.
@Ankhorn. NW Player Since August 2019. Upper-Middle-Noob
My PVP FEEDBACK Part II
OVERVIEW (short description of the proposed feedback)
A daily, bi-daily or even repeatable Stronghold Quest granting XP, Gold, Guild Marks and [Insert PVP Reward].
GOAL(what this feedback would target and accomplish)
To motivate players to do regular PVP queues and raise the active pvp player base.
Feedback Functionality (how would your feedback work in relation to the current design of Neverwinter).
Simply add a daily quest in the stronghold to familiarize people with pvp, exposing them to more of it, by making pvp part of everyone’s daily routine.
This is exactly what motivates people to do daily dungeon and trial queues. Astrals and rewards. It even motivates under-powered toons to try and sneak into LOMM.
RISKS AND CONCERNS (what problems can you foresee with implementing your feedback that you would like input on from members of this subforum)
This would have to be in tandem with any number of other improvements or we will simply have more frustrated players.
I really don’t see any risk. It seems extremely easy to implement by my admittedly uninformed estimation. Equally easy to edit or remove too, I would think.
PS Has anyone suggested of 2v2 or 3v3 teams yet? That would be pretty cool. Im also going to suggest, in a more polished form: Class versus class PVP. Same classes. Class balance fixed. Ta da!
~Neverwinter Foooools!!!!
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Hey everyone - I really appreciate all of this feedback and suggestions.
I have a question for you folks though, based on your current opinion of PvP.
If you do not play PvP, what do you feel it would take to get you to try it out for a bit?
If you do occasionally play PvP, What do you feel it would take to make it more of a daily routine for you?
If you play PvP frequently, do you feel like the time you spent in there isn't wasted? And if so, what do you feel would make your time investment feel more respected?
Again, thank you everyone for your posts. I love seeing this discussion.
For me personally, Team Deathmatch as a gamemode would probably get me to play. I think (weirdly) being able to spectate would probably make me more interested in joining pvp as well.
@Ankhorn. NW Player Since August 2019. Upper-Middle-Noob
My PVP FEEDBACK Part III Feedback Overview (short description of the proposed feedback)
CLASS VERSUS CLASS PVP MODE!!!
This is self-explanatory and instantly balances classes (within this PVP game mode at least). It is also fun and a great way to learn to play your class offensively and defensively, learning strengths and weaknesses.
Feedback Goal (what this feedback would target and accomplish)
This targets class balance and also PVP training/learning curve issues by letting new players see how other players play their class (both offensively and defensively) too.
Feedback Functionality (how would your feedback work in relation to the current design of Neverwinter).
Simply add it as a Q option I imagine. Create a daily reward/quest to go with it.
Risks & Concerns (what problems can you foresee with implementing your feedback that you would like input on from members of this subforum)
Some elite players might think it’s dumb. But it would never be the only pvp option. So it really shouldn’t be that hard, or that bad.
PS I am having to reformat these so much when I paste them in I am giving up. =( It looked beautiful in google docs =p
Hey everyone - I really appreciate all of this feedback and suggestions.
I have a question for you folks though, based on your current opinion of PvP.
If you do not play PvP, what do you feel it would take to get you to try it out for a bit?
If you do occasionally play PvP, What do you feel it would take to make it more of a daily routine for you?
If you play PvP frequently, do you feel like the time you spent in there isn't wasted? And if so, what do you feel would make your time investment feel more respected?
Again, thank you everyone for your posts. I love seeing this discussion.
I play pvp a lot in other games. I spent 5 years playing uncharted pvp exclusively with a small group of friends. I do other shooter types pvp as well. I remember trying this out and saying "oh, hell to the naw." I've gone in a couple times since and gone oh yeah hell no. I remember playing it on a lvl 30 too a couple few years ago and that was actually fun.
the wide variety of powers that is vastly uneven makes it very not fun to play. it would need to be stripped down to basics where everyone has the same basic combat powers and gear. and have all paths be different from pve.
it needs to be it's own game before it's going to be an experience I want to be part of again.
1. it's just not fun as it is. 2. I play this game for the pve and FRIENDLY community. not for hamster measuring and hostilities. I'm not going to ever want to farm gear specifically for it. I consider it a PIA enough as it is that I need more than one gear load out for pve.
If it were structured differently as an entirely different system from pve without enchants and what not but just things you earned from levelling up it would be ok. like lets say there is 3rd free load out: pvp and it strips your toon down except for things that are unique to the pvp system. We all start out in our underware but as we level up we can unlock various clothes items and various powers. These things are not kept in our inventory but are just systemic like a boon system. If I need to keep pvp items in my inventory I'm definitely not going to bother with it. I'm here for the pve primarily and that's already a strain on my resources. I'm ok with some toons being stronger because they've played longer and unlocked more but there needs to be lobbies that for level 10s vs level 80s (and our pve levels should be irrelevant here) 4. you can't have balance with the same advantages you need for pve and pvp sharing the same systems. they are too different with requirements that are too different. 5. a system where you go in with no powers but can find various powers on the ground would be fun. 6. needs variety of types. needs team based games (objectives) not all domination. king of the hill, capture the flag all the standard pvp variety types. maybe some fun op variants like Dailys only. (but those dailies would all need to be equal damage dealing sameish sameish. 7. pvp is an area I'm not ok with pay to win in any capacity. it kills balance.
Finally.... the biggest elephant in the room..
the toxic. Like I said I've done a lot of shooter pvp. shooter pvp can have some really angry people yelling at you for no good reason.. yet, the level of toxic I've encountered there didn't even register on the radar compared to how toxic this community is. I'm not sure what it is about this community that accentuates this.. but it's there and it's bad. I'm giving the feedback that would make me come back and try it but i'm not sure the toxic will ever die here. and that is something I'm on the side of: kill it.. Kill it with fire.. I don't need that in my life. LOL. I think other people who play MMORPGS are on the same page with over all. if we wanted to be in the middle of a type a bro fest we'd go play COD or halo.. and that those games are somehow less toxic than this one is is just baffling.
One of the things that kept me playing pvp in uncharted day in and day out was this large boon system. it was gun based so a lot of the things were based on that like steadier aim. faster fire rate, one where you could see thru walls and one to counter seeing thru walls. one to make you move silently. various skins that were fun were unlocked at higher levels and other transmuty type things. there were 80 levels that were significant to move thru with most levels having something new to unlock. the things you could unlock could help your play style but were not any kind of change the game things that absolutely EVERYONE must use!! and there were a variety of choices that were different but all used by different people. and added variety to the game play style. even the most controversial one the see thru walls one used primarily by shotgun campers added variety to the game and required the player to have new strategies to counter other than being forced to use the boring counter to that. some of the boons were negative but gave more xp. there was one called get off my lawn that gave you half health but like 3x xp.
another thing that is missing from this game is verticality. it's all one level. there is no real cat and mouse. it's all face to face direct conflict. that's boring.
Hey everyone - I really appreciate all of this feedback and suggestions.
I have a question for you folks though, based on your current opinion of PvP.
If you do not play PvP, what do you feel it would take to get you to try it out for a bit?
If you do occasionally play PvP, What do you feel it would take to make it more of a daily routine for you?
If you play PvP frequently, do you feel like the time you spent in there isn't wasted? And if so, what do you feel would make your time investment feel more respected?
Again, thank you everyone for your posts. I love seeing this discussion.
I'm in the category that don't play pvp, but i got interested in it because the reward for pvp seasons would be useful for my character. I played a bit in mod 2 when Rick (the kobold) gave the quest for ad to play pvp match, so what would push a person like me to play pvp are reward that are useful in pve.
There are two thing that keep me from trying : i don't know any strategies and if i encounter any powerful guy i'm useless (creating problem to my teem too). With a spectator mode one can learn the strategies, and (i'm going to call in my previous post) by dividing the players by league i'm sure that the only thing that matter in the match are my own skill (in league 1) my total playtime in pve and pvp other than skill (in league 2) and and my playtime in pvp and skill (in league 3). (note: league 3 is for those that only care for pvp or for a character that is created only to pvp, so that one didn't need to complete the campaing and using pve enchantment and gear on it, but is 'forged' entirely by pvp from level 80 onward)
in conclusion rewards from pvp that are useful in pve and, for balance, reward from pve that are useful to pvp, other that a system that i can use to win even with a weak character.
just an idea : maybe for the waiting time can be useful to have a pseudo-random queue? if 20 are queued for pvp then will pop the stronghold one, if 14 are queued the 2 domination 1 3vs3 and 1 1vs1.
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rickcase276Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,404Arc User
I am in the group that does not play pvp or really any group activities in game. For me, almost all group activities in the game do not have enough ROI for me to consider it worth my time and effort to do (the dealing with other people that want to tell you how to play etc). Honestly to get me to play PVP there would have to be a very high AD reward, like about 10k per match. So I doubt I would be the target audience for this CDP.
Hey everyone - I really appreciate all of this feedback and suggestions.
I have a question for you folks though, based on your current opinion of PvP.
If you do not play PvP, what do you feel it would take to get you to try it out for a bit?
If you do occasionally play PvP, What do you feel it would take to make it more of a daily routine for you?
If you play PvP frequently, do you feel like the time you spent in there isn't wasted? And if so, what do you feel would make your time investment feel more respected?
Again, thank you everyone for your posts. I love seeing this discussion.
As someone who plays PvP frequently, I'd say sometimes time spent there isn't wasted, most of the time it sadly is. It mostly comes down to team comps (e.g. if I'm playing against 3 healers thats a waste of time, not fun, regardless of the outcome). Another factor is character builds/broken items (if I fight a team full of dps roles built as a tank with OP sigil, no fun; if I fight 4 people in green gear, no fun). If I'm playing in a premade, e.g. the tournament running now, I'm very happy with the time I put in. While it's secondary, it'd be nice to receive something of value for winning instead of the green gear that tends to drop.
I enjoy PVP here and there if I queue up with some buddies but by no means do I regularly PVP.
With that said, I won't even make pretend I have any solution to the problems that plague PVP. I will however take a moment to answer your questions from my perspective.
If you do not play PvP, what do you feel it would take to get you to try it out for a bit?
I will answer this from the viewpoint of friends I know that refuse to go in to PVP anymore. To put it simply, they want a fighting chance. There was a time when Qing for PVP didn't mean you would end up in getting squashed by the PVP experts every single match. The community is so small now that a newcomer is almost sure to get smashed and, a good amount of the time, be introduced to the toxicity of some pvpers.
If you do occasionally play PvP, What do you feel it would take to make it more of a daily routine for you?
A complete overhaul of PVP? There aren't enough maps to keep a persons interest. There aren't enough players to get Gauntelgrym to pop. Since the new map, it's almost always Stardock popping. So basically 95% of matches are on the same map for me.
Drains, certain artifacts, etc have all gotten out of hand. The largest problem, is unfortunately the one you will have the biggest problem fixing. Without a deeper pool of pvpers, new players will almost certainly be turned off by the regulars. And whatever happened to level based Qs? When I started NW we used to run twink pvp. Thats not even possible anymore.
The rewards added to PVP were not bad. But not great either. I can get most of those rewards with a lot less irritation. Not to mention, it's kinda hard to rank if you're always Qing in with the same 7-9 regular PVPers that make it next to impossible to actually get a few wins.
I don't blame the regulars for winning. But it sure would be nice to have an even battleground once in awhile.
If you play PvP frequently, do you feel like the time you spent in there isn't wasted? And if so, what do you feel would make your time investment feel more respected?
I'm going to go back to the first "new rewards" pvp season. I took part in that one a lot more frequently. I never feel my time is wasted if I'm having fun. And I feel like that first season had more people participating since the matches felt a little more even, more often. That itself made it rewarding. But there was also a time when I could get AD from PVP.
I did 1 match this past season and said forget it. Not worth the headache.
Thank you to folks who gave additional insight into Solo Queue. From a personal perspective, I've always been hesitant to remove features once they are introduced - yes, it happens in every game but I'm likely the one in meetings with counterpoints to removal, preferring to first explore how something can be modified to make it feasible. Only after reasonable options have been exhausted am I ok moving towards a removal decision. Again, this is just my own philosophy!
@trgluestickz made a comment that has really stuck with me and I'm mulling over:
"Solo que is currently the only active PVP type right now and puts 2 different groups of players with incompatible interests in the same que as each other."
And that gets to the crux of one of the biggest issues (for me) - incompatible interests among the different existing PvP, potential PvP players, and PvE players.
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
If you do not play PvP, what do you feel it would take to get you to try it out for a bit?
Combat that did not depend on gear or builds, just what class you choose. Is fast paced and purely based on reflexes, timing and skill. So similar to a FPS but similar to what Jedi Knight II (I think) had going many years ago.
Or team based maps where it was objective based - like what Enemy Territory brought to the FPS genre
Comments
PvP Campaign and Seasons
Feedback Overview
This feedback goes over the implementation of PvP Campaign and Seasons, describes some of their design flaws and proposes solutions to them.Feedback Goal
A proper campaign can serve as a good introduction to PvP while seasons are what helps keep the day-to-day PvP going. Implementing this feedback would make those systems fulfill their roles better.Feedback Functionality
Campaign
As with most systems introduced after M16, this campaign is a very simplified version of the original one. In this state where the PvP queue pops rarely, it’s fairly difficult to complete it, especially the 100 wins task.Boons which come with this campaign are fine and need no adjustment.
The campaign rewards large amounts of glory, which would theoretically make sense in a healthy PvP gear system. Now however, this glory is useless as all the glory gear is once again outdated. There is a decent amount of rough AD offered – a title, fashion item or something along those lines would make more sense.
Similarly to what PvE campaigns have with dungeon keys, there could be a repeatable task here as well. That’s where rough AD as a reward would be reasonable.
Seasons
Seasons are something implemented as an attempt to help horrible queue times. Initially, they were a big success (we could see 4 or more instances of PvP at peak, up from usually 0 or 1), unfortunately everything quickly went back to where it was originally.The major problem that seasons have is that everything that currently motivates people to play PvP is tied to them. This means that after 4 weeks of a season, the 2 week break completely kills PvP (again, 0-1 instances at peak). An obvious solution is to reduce the 2 week break to one week. Perhaps some of the rewards (such the per-match ones I have proposed in my Rewards post) could be separated from seasons to improve this futher.
Risks & Concerns
Neither of those proposed ideas come with any risks except for development time, which could definitely be used for more important PvP issues. With the amount of resources that have typically been allocated to PvP, I’d only make the season downtime change. Adjustments to campaign, unless taken much more broadly so as to convert it to an introductory/tutorial system, are just a luxury and should not be prioritized.The current state of PvP, modes and options
Feedback Overview
This feedback describes the implications of adding new PvP modes. It also goes over one of the most important aspects of PvP “friendliness” towards PvE players and newcomers – queuing up together with friends.Feedback Goal
Prevent devs from focusing on the wrong issues in PvP. Offer a solution to the solo queue vs group queue dilemma.Feedback Functionality
Solo queue and group queue
I believe this to be a vital topic for the future of PvP. Further discussion on this topic is very much appreciated.Currently, the only way to play PvP is via solo queue. It was introduced a long time ago in an attempt to improve match quality and prevent certain players from running full BiS premades just to stomp newcomers. This way, the social or teamwork part of the experience was nearly completely removed from PvP. As a result of that, a lot of players quit PvP or the game.
It’s true that in terms of match quality or balance, in games with matchmaking, solo queue will produce the best results (with the exception of organized premade vs premade). Neverwinter however is not suited for this, and therefore, it’s better to sacrifice a tiny bit of match quality to preserve the social aspect of PvP. With that said, it’s also clear that implementing something like this right now would not work, it would kill PvP within a few weeks.
There is a solution to this issue. It relies on those concepts:
- there is enough people queuing up – with different party sizes, the matchmaking algorithm has to do more of mixing and matching;
- the power differences between players (gear gap if you will) are relatively small;
- the game has a relatively low skill ceiling, i.e. to be at the same mechanical level as veteran players, a dedicated newcomer only needs say a few months.
At the moment, 1 and 2 are not met. 3 is a constant that is true especially from M16 and onwards. By focusing on 2 first, along with some other meta/general PvP changes, 1 should improve on its own. Once conditions 2 and 3 are met, solo queue should be removed and PvP should once again have only one queue (the original, unrestricted one). Finally as a result of those and other good changes, 1 will be satisfied automatically.Those that remember the days of when “premade pug stomping” was rampant will know the true nature of it – it was BiS players forming those premades, not skilled BiS players. Being in a full premade with voice comms is an advantage yes, but it doesn’t make the opposing team helpless even if it’s 5 players who queued up solo, assuming the three requirements mentioned are met. I remember running as a trio into full premades in those days and usually all it took was the 2 people outside of my trio listening and the match was easily winnable.
Different PvP modes
As we’ve seen (PvP focused players) with the recent addition of stardock arena, changes like this are a waste of time for the devs. For me and most veterans, this map should just not have been added at all. I believe the same thing applies to modes. Domination is what defines PvP in NW and it is how it should stay. I’m not against adding more modes, perhaps there is a large group of players interested in say CTF, but as I see it, that’s more of a luxury addition more suitable for a very good, healthy PvP.Open world PvP was pretty big when it was introduced, but by design it suffered from problems, most importantly companions. These not only very significantly improve the already ridiculously huge power gap, but they also pose a balance problem that is likely impossible to solve with the resources available.
Risks & Concerns
The solo vs group queue topic is absolutely essential to the future of PvP. It mainly depends on accessibility and gear gap reduction, which have to be seriously improved before any progress can be made with this.Adding more modes to PvP is something that may require a lot of resources. Based on the current state of PvP, I’d recommend focusing on fixing what exists rather than adding something new.
Intersection between PvP and PvE
Feedback Overview
This feedback describes how to improve PvP meta and make it more balanced while having no negative effect on PvE.Feedback Goal
Improve PvP meta especially in terms of too low or too high time-to-kill.Feedback Functionality
This has always been a very problematic aspect of the game. The “meta” in both parts of the game is completely different, so balancing classes, items and the rest is not easy.With the game simplification of M16, the path to balancing both at once is much clearer. There will always be some issues that are difficult to fix. As a quick example, dps DC can build very tanky and still have similar or higher burst than a lot of dps focused classes that build glass cannon. In PvE, this evens out over time; in current PvP meta, burst is way more important than dps and this makes the spec overpowered.
Most of those issues can however be solved rather easily and with low effort. Class differences and uniqueness have been dramatically reduced in M16, to the point where balancing specific class mechanics for PvP is no longer as necessary. Instead, it is enough to just target the PvP meta globally.
Anyone who has been around for a while knows that Tenacity used to do most of what we need in PvP right now. Current implementation should include:
- increased healing depression to 35% (note that current healing depression is 20%);
- reduced critical damage by 20%;
- crowd control resistance as a replacement for the buggy, unreliable cc stack system (which is an outdated band-aid fix to oppressor CW and trapper HR).
A more in-depth post on this can be found here: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1253487/tenacity-and-pvp-meta. The numbers are just my own rough estimation and as such should be discussed further.As for separation of PvP (potentially even from the rest of the game, as Chris mentioned in a recent stream), I’m not a fan of this idea. The general social setting and persistence of the world is what competitive PvP-only games cannot offer. And this is why I like about playing PvP here – I can play a few matches, then go chat with others, run a dungeon with friends, mess around in PE, join a guild together. Competitive games are restricted only to the matches themselves and a friendlist with chat.
Risks & Concerns
Implementing tenacity as described will likely require a few tiny patches later to adjust the numbers. It’s not easy to get them right on the first attempt, but then again, it means just changing a few numbers.(SOLO PVP TIER GEAR SETS)
1. I Would like to see each tier of armor have its own currency marks to collect for each set of gear / weapon sets. From campaign currency's or Randoms, Lair or Guild Que match's.
• Tier 1 - Common - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
• Tier 2 - Rare - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
• Tier 3 - Epic - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
• Tier 4 - Legendary - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
(SOLO PVP WEAPON SETS)
•Tier 1 - common - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
•Tier 2 - Rare - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
•Tier 3 - Epic -Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
•Tier 4 - Legendary - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
(NOTES)
- As you gather better pvp gear enchantment slots will open like Common & Rare 0 slots Epics 1 slot Legendary 2 slots
- PVE Gear Should never be used in pvp Period.
- All tier based gear & pvp weapons should be stat based only. No Ability attached to gear.
- Enchantments - Can be used but not effect the item level of character.
- Insignia's - Can be used but not effect the item level of character.
- Mounts - Can be used but not effect the item level of character.
- Artifact's - Can be used but not effect the item level of character.
- PvP Weapon sets - Can be used but can increase item level of character. No Ability attached to weapon sets.
• This way it makes a clean PvP leveling atmosphere for all players while they are leveling up there gear / weapon sets.
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(PvP Que's Remastered)
2. I would like to see 3 different PvP Que's one called (PVP LAIRS) & one called (PVP RANDOMS) & one called (GUILD RANDOMS)
(PVP LAIRS)
• Is for players who are leveling up there gear & Weapon sets ether through the campaign or Lair Que's. That way the newer pvp players don't get (RIP) by veteran players.
(PVP Randoms)
• Is for those who have completed the PvP campaign & Acquired the boons & legendary Tier / Weapon sets.
(PVP GUILD RANDOMS)
• This is only Que-able with guild mates & is separate from Lair Ques & Random Ques Guilds could create there own cloaks based on there teams colors and etc.
anyone want to add to guild pvp go for it i could care less (solo PvP for life!)
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(LEADER BOARDS)
3. Leader boards for Should only be for.
• PvP Lair's Ques << Is Strictly leveling up gear / weapons only (Not for leader board)
• PvP Solo Randoms
• PvP Guild Randoms
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(STRONGHOLD PVP STUFF) << should never be mixed with Lair Ques or Random Ques. Just strictly Guild Random Ques
(Guild Tier Sets)
• Tier 1 - Common - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
• Tier 2 - Rare - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
• Tier 3 - Epic - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
• Tier 4 - Legendary - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
(Guild PvP weapon sets)
•Tier 1 - common - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
•Tier 2 - Rare - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
•Tier 3 - Epic -Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
•Tier 4 - Legendary - Collectible with PvP Campaign Currency's, PvP Weekly Questing in ice wind dale, or Lair Match's Etc.
Notes
_ PVE gear and weapon sets should not be used in Guild pvp Ques
- Guild Armor / weapon sets should never cross over to Randoms or Lair ques Or vice versa.
- All PvP Guild based gear & weapons should be stat based only. No Ability attached to gear.
- Enchantments - Can be used but not effect the item level of character.
- Insignia's - Can be used but not effect the item level of character.
- Mounts - Can be used but not effect the item level of character.
- Artifact's - Can be used but not effect the item level of character.
-Guild PvP Weapon sets - Can be used but can increase the item level of character. No Ability attached to Weapon sets.
• This way it makes a clean PvP leveling atmosphere for all players while they are leveling up & there Guild gear / weapon sets.
There is whole lot more that can be said here but i know not everyone will agree with me but let me know what you like differant from this revamp of pvp
ty -TankReady- Best in class guild 2013
Thank you,
Ry
The season event and boons overhaul did introduce some decent rewards to PVP for first time in a while. However, as many others have mentioned, these rewards are not enough by themselves to add meaningful gear progression to PVP. The value of the rewards isn't even close to covering the time spent to obtain them.
As countless players have pointed out, all gear related progression for PVP requires you to either grind PVE content or pay a lot of money/AD. You pretty much need to be maxed out in PVE before you'll have the resources you need to actually do well in PVP. This makes no sense and is a major obstacle to getting more people interested in PVP.
Proposed Solutions to the Above Issues:
Idea #1: Repeatable milestone tasks with repeatable rewards:
A long time favorite idea of mine is to add repeatable milestone tasks to the PVP campaign. Each time you complete these repeatable tasks, you also get some good rewards.
These tasks would be similar to the current tasks but would include some new tasks, here are some examples I cooked up:
Win 100 domination matches: Get 2 coal wards
Kill 1000 enemies while standing on a node: Get 10 mark of potency rank 7's
Outheal the other team's healers in 500 matches: Gain 5 r12 enchantment choice packs, 3 stacks of PVP 99 heal potions, and a 42 slot bag of holding. You also gain a title the first time you complete this task.
Revive 300 allies: get 5 stacks of 99 PVP heal potions and a small bag of holding
Win 100 guantlgrym matches: Get a recolored howler mount and a title the first time you complete this task. Each future completion grants a stack of 99 pres wards.
Cap 800 nodes in guantlgrym: Get a stack of 99 potions of speed and a title the first time you complete this task. Repeats of this task grant 30 potions of speed and 3 mark of potency rank 5.
Idea #2 Update the vendors in the trade of blades with better rewards:
Update the glory stores in the trade of blades with good rewards. I would recommend releasing more gear that works the same way the current imperator gear set does. I want to see rings, enchantments, gear, and insignias that activate their stats only when you are on a PVP map. The best rings sold in these stores should be as good as the best rings available from the latest raid. The enchantments should have r13 stats in PVP and the insignias should have epic or legendary stats in PVP. These stores should also sell some mounts, including at least one epic mount.
It is also very important for there to be a basic set of PVP gear you can buy for 1 copper. This basic set should provide enough stats to allow you to compete with people who have the BIS gear. BIS gear should be a significant enough improvement for people to want it but it shouldn't be so powerful that you must have it.
The very best gear sold in these stores should require currency from both domination and guantlgrym to buy. I would also suggest an epic mount that also requires currency from both of these PVP types to buy.
Idea #3: Fix a minor bug with one of the PVP boons:
The PVP boons are good as is other than the fact that the 15% speed capstone boon is bugged/not working still. My only request for the boons is to fix that one boon that isn't working.
Foreseen rewards implementation risks and concerns:
I decided not to suggest any ideas above that grant rewards directly from matches because of them being the most easy form of rewards to mess up or exploit. I went the indirect route for all my above suggestions. I want to emphasize that if any rewards are added to the loot tables for the matches directly, anything good needs to only be granted from winning matches. Don't offer many participation rewards, I would suggest offering only glory for lost matches. This will prevent the issues we had in the past with PVE only players queing in to get the minimum points they needed to get rewarded and then going AFK at their team's expense.
I will also mention how the bind status for these rewards should work.
-- For my milestone tasks suggestion, it should be safe to leave most or all of these rewards unbound. A few suggestions like the recolored howler mount and speed potions may be better to make bind to character on pickup.
-- For the improved trade of blades vendor rewards, most or all of this stuff should be bound to account. This will prevent botters from botting glory to buy these rewards.
A very late edit:
With the above in mind I mentioned about rewards, I would like to further clarify that the best system may be to only provide any kind of direct match rewards for the regular/premade allowing que. Both ques would have the indirect rewards systems but the regular/premade que would also grant some rewards directly from winning matches. The benefit of making it so the solo que doesn't grant any rewards directly from matches is that it further discourages players in the solo que from kicking to win.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
https://dcuobloguide.com/guides/pvp-explained/
If you read you will get a good idea of pvp in neverwinter could be ty
Edit: After some time trying to figure out what you are trying to say, here is my answer.
You start out with a "standard" cloth under my suggestion but this cloth doesn't max you out, its just to get you started at a reasonable point where you don't get crushed into dust due to disgustingly inadequate gear. My suggestion offers some unbound items from the milestone tasks you can sell to get the AD for the things that aren't in the PVP stores or to upgrade to higher rank items.
Approaching this from your d&d logic view point about why should someone who can beat up a beholder not be able to beat up an adventurer, I'd say the adventurer is significantly scarier than a beholder. I dunno if you noticed but the things adventurers can do in this game are op as hell, they are like gods. Also, you still can beat up the beholder too since you can progress a character through both PVE and PVP under my suggestions, its not like you are literally restricted to playing one or the other, my suggestions are simply intended to make it more viable for PVP characters to earn a living through PVP instead of having to go to PVE to get everything or whip out your wallet.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
As a disclaimer, I'm going to admit that I haven't spent any serious time playing PvP in Neverwinter since before M4, I've only dabbled enough to have my PvP prejudices formed since M4 further cemented. I do not plan to seriously give PvP any serious time investment without some major changes. But I feel very nostalgic for some of the Best highlights of the Games PvP golden age in M2 and M3.
Problems I see with Current PvP (just my opinion)
1. High cost to play
- Players need to make huge investment just to be allowed to play a match to completion (unless it's a private match, but then there is no reward)
- High cost includes time spent in PvE farming RNG for the right gear, but also spending currency to get the "right" items up to a high enough level, not spending in the "right" areas is the difference between getting smashed, or doing the smashing... it's not even close
- I'm not calling this a high cost to compete, because frankly, in the current state of the community, if you are not competing, you get kicked, in fact even if you are competing and doing your part you might get kicked anyway to make room for a particular groups buddies.
- A brand new to PvP but otherwise extremely skilled player cannot walk into a PvP match and have an experience other than staring at the floor after 3 seconds of combat
2. Hacky/ Meta play valued above skill and teamwork
- for a multitude of reasons certain party configurations are clearly superior and sought after in matches
- Some Items in game (like paladins sigil) over perform in PvP and give advantages to players or teams
- I would agree that class balance is probably the best it's been for PvP since early game mods, but it still has a ways to go
3. PvP / PvE interchange buff/nerf cycle
- This cycle has had multiple iterations, new item comes to PvE, PvP players exploit it, PvP players complain, Item gets nerfed to the point it is no longer useful for PvE (reverse is true)
4. PvP community "Eats it's own" on a regular basis
- One of the single biggest reasons people cite for not playing PvP/ stopping to play PvP is community toxicity
- There will always be some toxicity as long as player vs player competition exists, but a number of factors in game really highlight this flaw in the community
5. Stale game modes/ no variety
- All the PvP game modes (including siege) are a flavor of domination.
- Where is deathmatch, team death match, capture the flag, race, etc?
6. There have been multiple PvP centered updates and patches to the game, and none of them have made a significant impact to the quality/quantity of PvP gameplay
- Maybe this is me being pessimistic, but my perception is that the PvP community has always been a fraction of the player base, and the focus/ investment to date has largely been wasted, is PvP in this game worth actually saving? or would investments be better spent making more PvE content, and bringing back Founderies?
- I do understand that PvP game play tends to bring the most Marketing on platforms like Twitch, but has a Cost/ Value assessment actually been done for PvP in this game?
Some knee jerk reaction ideas that I like to bring PvP back:
1. Eliminate ALL PvE items from PvP.
- This includes: enchantments, artifacts, mount powers, mount insignia bonus and gear.
2. I prefer the idea "naked PvP" where everyone has the same gear/ stats for the role they are playing
- if this isn't feasible then create a PvP only progression system, with a separate inventory, basically completely disconnect PvE from PvP
3. Better skill matching system
- This is a chicken or the egg problem, we can't have better matching without more players, but we won't get more players without better matching
- this is exasperated by matching systems that don't balance roles in matches
Guild Leader: Mistaken Identity (formerly Midnight Express)
My Twitch Stream
See my Youtube Channel for guides and more
"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
1. Balance/experience:
-I think the path of least resistance forward is to make PvP gear that is better suited for PvP than most of the top PvE gear available. Tenacity could be reinstated to make the gear essential. This immediately evens the playing field.
-offering PvP specific rewards purchasable with glory, season rewards (or zen?), such as insignias that only function as legendary in PvP (the basics - not the new brutality etc.) enchants that increase in value when flagged for PvP, as well as overloads (like hell pit - +5% damage, +5% hitpoints etc.) that are only active when flagged for PvP.
-Putting an Item level minimum (similar to epic content) on PvP. This would have to eliminate the consideration of companions; if this would be possible an item level of 17,000 - 18,000 should have a minimum of gear to be relevant. **important to not calculate companions as these give tons of item level with no benefit to PvP.
2. Solo Q: when this was originally adopted - it saved what was left of PvP, and allowed it to limp along in a slow decline. I used to love solo Q; now I'm starting to agree that it is a killer.
-I think the way forward is to bring back a focus on team work, and communication.
That being said, I am torn between the two - it almost feels as if one cannot coexist with the other.. more competitive people would come back if the solo Q left, but I don't know that it would produce the level of activity (Q pops) that solo does, not sure if the community could sustain moving away from solo,
Solution?: Perhaps it could be tested moving solo Q back to an event - with increased frequency? If the effects are positive - keep rolling, if they are negative - find a new path forward.
In mod 16, everyone was too tanky. When mod 17 came out, the pendulum swung the other direction and now everyone is much squishier. At first, I thought mod 17 made everyone too squishy but as we adjusted, it became apparent that tankyness is still a thing albeit much less extreme than it used to be. It no longer feels like there is too much damage or too much tankyness in PVP and its actually very close to balanced right now. The damage is high enough to make combat feel much more refreshing than it has at any other point in recent memory.
There are still a few minor tweaks that need to happen to get the damage/tankyness/healing in PVP even closer to balanced. Global tenacity was taken out entirely in mod 17 except for a little bit of healing depression, this was an improvement over how things were before since the old global tenacity buff values were outdated, but there are still some adjustments that should be added back in the form of global tenacity.
Right now, healing in PVP is still a little too strong. Healing depression needs to be increased some and there are a few items like paladin sigil that still overpreform and need a nerf.
Damage from critical hits is also a little too high. Right now, leaving the full strength crits in helps us deal with the excessive healing but if healing depression is increased, critical damage would also need to be lowered a little bit globally. Probably in the form of critical severity reduction.
Control effects in PVP are currently very long but this isn't really the issue, the issue is that many CCs still are buggy and don't respect some or all immunity frames and dodges. If these bugs got fixed, it would be fine to leave CCs with their current long durations in PVP.
If fixing the CC bugs proves to be too difficult, then adding back some CC resistance in the form of global tenacity is necessary. If global CC resistance is added back in, then the outdated CC immunity stacks system that is currently in place should be removed.
Implementation Risks and Concerns:
You want to be careful not to overdo the healing depression or critical severity reduction, a little goes a long way and I don't want to see us return to a state where everyone is too tanky. I would suggest looking at @gweddry 's proposed global tenacity values as he has essentially the same suggestion but with a better understanding of what the exact numbers for the tenacity values should be.
---------------
Second Issue: RNG Currently Plays Too Big of a Role In Deciding Fight Outcomes:
A downside to the mod 16 overhaul is that the skill ceiling is now being lowered too much by RNG factors in fights. You can outplay the hell out of your opponent and be doing everything right but often will still lose fights due to simply getting unlucky with your critical hits, your deflects, random procs, ect.
Proposed Solutions to the Above Issue:
I am not really sure what all to propose to fix this, I only recently became more aware of this issue; but it definitely needs to be mentioned. The more skilled you get as a player, the more you start to notice this issue.
I like that I now have an incentive to stack critical strike again but it does account for pehaps more of your damage than it should. The critical severity depression I suggested above may help with this issue some but an alternative may be to lower crit damage by significantly more than that first suggestion and increase the damage of regular hits to balance that out.
For deflects and other random procs I'm even less sure of what to suggest, I would need more time to think on this and don't expect this issue to be fixed anytime soon.
---------------
Third Issue: Shadowclad enchantment acting as improvised tenacity
Shadowclad enchantment is in weird place right now when it comes to PVP balance; its undeniably op as hell but its also currently preforming some crucial roles needed for balanced PVP under our current system.
Shadowclad currently covers all your deflection chance needs and also offers a big chunk of damage resistance. If you were to suddenly nerf it without changing anything else, it is very likely everyone would be taking too much damage and PVP would no longer be so close to balanced. Shadowclad is also currently acting as a buffer to prevent the accuracy stat from being too op. If everyone was only stacking deflect in stat form, accuracy would almost certainly be too strong in a PVP setting.
Its obviously not ideal for PVP balance to revolve around the one enchantment to rule them all but its thankfully not an urgent issue to address. If the devs ever intend for other armor enchantments like elven to become viable again, this issue will need to be tackled.
Proposed Solution:
This issue I'm not sure of how to fix. Thankfully it can be put on the backburner for now, its not urgent but does still deserve a mention.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
Out of all the new modes/gimmicks that could be added to PVP, the spectator mode is the most appealing one for me. It is no secret that loads of people love watching people play games and sports. A spectator mode is also likely to drum up a lot more interest in PVP and could inspire more people to try it out, it is fantastic advertising for PVP.
Description:
A spectator mode is when you give players the ability to watch PVP matches take place live via a game option instead of using outside programs like twitch.
A spectator mode for this game ideally would allow you to watch any match currently in progress if you so choose. Maybe private matches should also have option for the que leader to disable spectating but all public PVP matches can be spectated.
Another option would be to have a Colosseum where spectating can take place.
It also could be option to have spectating be connected to the players playing the match where if you spectate, you are watching from the perspective of one of the players instead of watching the whole match from the bleachers or above.
Goal Of This Proposal:
Provide a fun new feature for PVP that will make PVP more visible to people playing neverwinter. This should drum up more interest in PVP even from people who don't want to actually play PVP. This should also lead to more people being inspired to try playing PVP and will make it easier for players to learn how PVPers play by observation, which should make learning how to play PVP easier. It would also likely increase support for PVP's existence and updates made to PVP.
Forseen Implementation Issues:
This is likely to be one of the more resource and develop time heavy updates that could be made to PVP. Spectator mode isn't already programmed into the game and would need to be built. If possible to get the time and resources for it, its probably worth it.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
I have a question for you folks though, based on your current opinion of PvP.
If you do not play PvP, what do you feel it would take to get you to try it out for a bit?
If you do occasionally play PvP, What do you feel it would take to make it more of a daily routine for you?
If you play PvP frequently, do you feel like the time you spent in there isn't wasted? And if so, what do you feel would make your time investment feel more respected?
Again, thank you everyone for your posts. I love seeing this discussion.
My PVP FEEDBACK Part II
Feedback Overview (short description of the proposed feedback)
A daily, bi-daily or even repeatable Stronghold Quest granting XP, Gold, Guild Marks and [Insert PVP Reward].
Feedback Goal (what this feedback would target and accomplish)
To motivate players to do regular PVP queues and raise the active pvp player base.
Feedback Functionality (how would your feedback work in relation to the current design of Neverwinter).
Simply add a daily quest in the stronghold to familiarize people with pvp, exposing them to more of it, by making pvp part of everyone’s daily routine.
This is exactly what motivates people to do daily dungeon and trial queues. Astrals and rewards. It even motivates underpowered toons to try and sneak into LOMM.
Risks & Concerns (what problems can you foresee with implementing your feedback that you would like input on from members of this subforum)
This would have to be in tandem with any number of other improvements or we will simply have more frustrated players.
I really don’t see any risk. It seems extremely easy to implement by my admittedly uninformed estimation. Equally easy to edit or remove too, I would think.
My PVP FEEDBACK Part II
OVERVIEW (short description of the proposed feedback)
A daily, bi-daily or even repeatable Stronghold Quest granting XP, Gold, Guild Marks and [Insert PVP Reward].
GOAL(what this feedback would target and accomplish)
To motivate players to do regular PVP queues and raise the active pvp player base.
Feedback Functionality (how would your feedback work in relation to the current design of Neverwinter).
Simply add a daily quest in the stronghold to familiarize people with pvp, exposing them to more of it, by making pvp part of everyone’s daily routine.
This is exactly what motivates people to do daily dungeon and trial queues. Astrals and rewards. It even motivates under-powered toons to try and sneak into LOMM.
RISKS AND CONCERNS (what problems can you foresee with implementing your feedback that you would like input on from members of this subforum)
This would have to be in tandem with any number of other improvements or we will simply have more frustrated players.
I really don’t see any risk. It seems extremely easy to implement by my admittedly uninformed estimation. Equally easy to edit or remove too, I would think.
PS
Has anyone suggested of 2v2 or 3v3 teams yet? That would be pretty cool.
Im also going to suggest, in a more polished form: Class versus class PVP. Same classes. Class balance fixed. Ta da!
My PVP FEEDBACK Part III
Feedback Overview (short description of the proposed feedback)
CLASS VERSUS CLASS PVP MODE!!!
This is self-explanatory and instantly balances classes (within this PVP game mode at least). It is also fun and a great way to learn to play your class offensively and defensively, learning strengths and weaknesses.
Feedback Goal (what this feedback would target and accomplish)
This targets class balance and also PVP training/learning curve issues by letting new players see how other players play their class (both offensively and defensively) too.
Feedback Functionality (how would your feedback work in relation to the current design of Neverwinter).
Simply add it as a Q option I imagine. Create a daily reward/quest to go with it.
Risks & Concerns (what problems can you foresee with implementing your feedback that you would like input on from members of this subforum)
Some elite players might think it’s dumb. But it would never be the only pvp option. So it really shouldn’t be that hard, or that bad.
PS
I am having to reformat these so much when I paste them in I am giving up. =(
It looked beautiful in google docs =p
I play pvp a lot in other games. I spent 5 years playing uncharted pvp exclusively with a small group of friends. I do other shooter types pvp as well. I remember trying this out and saying "oh, hell to the naw." I've gone in a couple times since and gone oh yeah hell no. I remember playing it on a lvl 30 too a couple few years ago and that was actually fun.
the wide variety of powers that is vastly uneven makes it very not fun to play. it would need to be stripped down to basics where everyone has the same basic combat powers and gear. and have all paths be different from pve.
it needs to be it's own game before it's going to be an experience I want to be part of again.
1. it's just not fun as it is.
2. I play this game for the pve and FRIENDLY community. not for hamster measuring and hostilities. I'm not going to ever want to farm gear specifically for it. I consider it a PIA enough as it is that I need more than one gear load out for pve.
If it were structured differently as an entirely different system from pve without enchants and what not but just things you earned from levelling up it would be ok. like lets say there is 3rd free load out: pvp and it strips your toon down except for things that are unique to the pvp system. We all start out in our underware but as we level up we can unlock various clothes items and various powers. These things are not kept in our inventory but are just systemic like a boon system. If I need to keep pvp items in my inventory I'm definitely not going to bother with it. I'm here for the pve primarily and that's already a strain on my resources.
I'm ok with some toons being stronger because they've played longer and unlocked more but there needs to be lobbies that for level 10s vs level 80s (and our pve levels should be irrelevant here)
4. you can't have balance with the same advantages you need for pve and pvp sharing the same systems. they are too different with requirements that are too different.
5. a system where you go in with no powers but can find various powers on the ground would be fun.
6. needs variety of types. needs team based games (objectives) not all domination. king of the hill, capture the flag all the standard pvp variety types. maybe some fun op variants like Dailys only. (but those dailies would all need to be equal damage dealing sameish sameish.
7. pvp is an area I'm not ok with pay to win in any capacity. it kills balance.
Finally.... the biggest elephant in the room..
the toxic. Like I said I've done a lot of shooter pvp. shooter pvp can have some really angry people yelling at you for no good reason.. yet, the level of toxic I've encountered there didn't even register on the radar compared to how toxic this community is. I'm not sure what it is about this community that accentuates this.. but it's there and it's bad. I'm giving the feedback that would make me come back and try it but i'm not sure the toxic will ever die here. and that is something I'm on the side of: kill it.. Kill it with fire.. I don't need that in my life. LOL. I think other people who play MMORPGS are on the same page with over all. if we wanted to be in the middle of a type a bro fest we'd go play COD or halo.. and that those games are somehow less toxic than this one is is just baffling.
One of the things that kept me playing pvp in uncharted day in and day out was this large boon system. it was gun based so a lot of the things were based on that like steadier aim. faster fire rate, one where you could see thru walls and one to counter seeing thru walls. one to make you move silently. various skins that were fun were unlocked at higher levels and other transmuty type things. there were 80 levels that were significant to move thru with most levels having something new to unlock. the things you could unlock could help your play style but were not any kind of change the game things that absolutely EVERYONE must use!! and there were a variety of choices that were different but all used by different people. and added variety to the game play style. even the most controversial one the see thru walls one used primarily by shotgun campers added variety to the game and required the player to have new strategies to counter other than being forced to use the boring counter to that.
some of the boons were negative but gave more xp. there was one called get off my lawn that gave you half health but like 3x xp.
another thing that is missing from this game is verticality. it's all one level. there is no real cat and mouse. it's all face to face direct conflict. that's boring.
I played a bit in mod 2 when Rick (the kobold) gave the quest for ad to play pvp match, so what would push a person like me to play pvp are reward that are useful in pve.
There are two thing that keep me from trying : i don't know any strategies and if i encounter any powerful guy i'm useless (creating problem to my teem too).
With a spectator mode one can learn the strategies, and (i'm going to call in my previous post) by dividing the players by league i'm sure that the only thing that matter in the match are my own skill (in league 1) my total playtime in pve and pvp other than skill (in league 2) and and my playtime in pvp and skill (in league 3).
(note: league 3 is for those that only care for pvp or for a character that is created only to pvp, so that one didn't need to complete the campaing and using pve enchantment and gear on it, but is 'forged' entirely by pvp from level 80 onward)
in conclusion rewards from pvp that are useful in pve and, for balance, reward from pve that are useful to pvp, other that a system that i can use to win even with a weak character.
just an idea : maybe for the waiting time can be useful to have a pseudo-random queue? if 20 are queued for pvp then will pop the stronghold one, if 14 are queued the 2 domination 1 3vs3 and 1 1vs1.
With that said, I won't even make pretend I have any solution to the problems that plague PVP. I will however take a moment to answer your questions from my perspective. I will answer this from the viewpoint of friends I know that refuse to go in to PVP anymore. To put it simply, they want a fighting chance. There was a time when Qing for PVP didn't mean you would end up in getting squashed by the PVP experts every single match. The community is so small now that a newcomer is almost sure to get smashed and, a good amount of the time, be introduced to the toxicity of some pvpers. A complete overhaul of PVP? There aren't enough maps to keep a persons interest. There aren't enough players to get Gauntelgrym to pop. Since the new map, it's almost always Stardock popping. So basically 95% of matches are on the same map for me.
Drains, certain artifacts, etc have all gotten out of hand. The largest problem, is unfortunately the one you will have the biggest problem fixing. Without a deeper pool of pvpers, new players will almost certainly be turned off by the regulars. And whatever happened to level based Qs? When I started NW we used to run twink pvp. Thats not even possible anymore.
The rewards added to PVP were not bad. But not great either. I can get most of those rewards with a lot less irritation. Not to mention, it's kinda hard to rank if you're always Qing in with the same 7-9 regular PVPers that make it next to impossible to actually get a few wins.
I don't blame the regulars for winning. But it sure would be nice to have an even battleground once in awhile. I'm going to go back to the first "new rewards" pvp season. I took part in that one a lot more frequently. I never feel my time is wasted if I'm having fun. And I feel like that first season had more people participating since the matches felt a little more even, more often. That itself made it rewarding. But there was also a time when I could get AD from PVP.
I did 1 match this past season and said forget it. Not worth the headache.
@trgluestickz made a comment that has really stuck with me and I'm mulling over:
"Solo que is currently the only active PVP type right now and puts 2 different groups of players with incompatible interests in the same que as each other."
And that gets to the crux of one of the biggest issues (for me) - incompatible interests among the different existing PvP, potential PvP players, and PvE players.
Or team based maps where it was objective based - like what Enemy Territory brought to the FPS genre