Bug: After the patch yesterday I have noticed that quite a few of the descriptions for the powers are duplicates. The most disturbing, and I hope it is a typo, is the block for the dps paragon. It shows the same function as the tank block. Not sure that is intended.
Hello, thanks for the report! Can you be more specific about what powers are displaying incorrectly? And in terms of block, are you referring to the standard block or the tab mechanic? The blocks were the same before this build. I have considered making adjustments to Dreadnought's blocks, but there have been no changes as of yet.
I am a bit confused if you can reach all caps on all stats at end game and tanks have a 30% base deduction of damage, encounters/powers/dailies that does less damage then the dps classes what does a tank beside non damage aggro ablities/feats/powers worth playing unless you pug and are forced to 3/1/1.
Block is easy replaced by dodge/evations hp are the same, defence the same what are the reason for playing tank beside that you prefer seeing your character as a tank.
How come Hp are the same among dps tank classes but tank has way less damage when they can have same defence due to gear/stats.
I just can not see the logic behind how they build the basics hp/defence/damage between tank and dps.
Same stats same hp same gear a tank by default should have a huge advantage of taking damage compared to dps light classes and I have trubble seing block close that gap compared to the enormous loss of damage vs dps classes. Add to this the advantage of being able to evade damage, having ranged damage beside doing more damage both aoe and single target for other classes like cw or even dc I fail to see the logic behind some of the mechanics.
Best
Thanks for the continued feedback. This is one of the areas that we are currently examining closely, as we agree that the difference is not strong enough right now, and the possibility of becoming as defensive as a tank, for a DPS is problematic in terms of group balance.
We will absolutely be working to ensure that tanks are necessary in group content.
The 30% damage reduction for Vanguard is a hot topic. One thing I would say is I don't see a trade-off, Vanguard does not receive any extra defenses in exchange for giving up 30% damage. If everyone is getting their defensive capabilities primarily from stats will we see parties running without a tank? Unless the only reason to have a tank is to keep aggro off the healer? I like to play tank because I want to control the battle, impose my will upon the enemy and force them to do what I want them to do.
We tried running the new dungeon last night but couldn't get far, my stats kept dropping while in combat and I would take massive damage and do very little damage. It was impossible to test anything, but I'm trying!
I'm sorry to hear that your stats would drop in combat! Can you provide the name of your character? I'd like to take a look, it sounds like you were definitely afflicted by some sort of bug, and I apologize for that. I appreciate your patience.
The 30% damage reduction for Vanguard is a hot topic. One thing I would say is I don't see a trade-off, Vanguard does not receive any extra defenses in exchange for giving up 30% damage. If everyone is getting their defensive capabilities primarily from stats will we see parties running without a tank? Unless the only reason to have a tank is to keep aggro off the healer? I like to play tank because I want to control the battle, impose my will upon the enemy and force them to do what I want them to do.
We tried running the new dungeon last night but couldn't get far, my stats kept dropping while in combat and I would take massive damage and do very little damage. It was impossible to test anything, but I'm trying!
I'm sorry to hear that your stats would drop in combat! Can you provide the name of your character? I'd like to take a look, it sounds like you were definitely afflicted by some sort of bug, and I apologize for that. I appreciate your patience.
Went through TONG on preview as both Vanguard and Dreadnought.
BUG: In TONG orcus fight, Dig In does not prevent knockback. This is also true of a few control spells. Yuan-Ti charm, I stay in dig in, but it seems to bug it out a bit. I can't cancel it easily, and I can't do anything if feared while dug in.
@asterdahl , I know you said you're working on the animation, so that's hopefully going to help here. Right now, Dig in is a bit too clunky and gets bugged. If we could reduce the animation time and make getting into, and out of Dig in more responsive, it would help significantly with some of the dig in issues IMO.
BUG: In level scaled dungeons, I can’t access some of the abilities, like shield slam or determination. I’m assuming this is due to something wrong with the dungeon scaling:
For Dig In: The changes to increase DR, remove CA from enemies, and boost stamina regen has helped a bit. But it's still too situational to be used as a "TAB" mechanic. It's getting there though. There needs to be some sort of an aggro mechanic to it to hold. Something that it does. Maybe it pulses aggro out or does a small amount of damage in an AOE? Honestly, just making Dig in near instant to activate and deactivate would make it more useful in more scenarios. Also need a clearer warning sign if it stops due to the Stamina being fully drained. It leaves you in a weird state, so you're just standing there, no shield, and everything murders you pretty quick.
Maybe we could do something like the second Dig In breaks due to stamina dropping you get some DR for a few seconds, and you're immune to movement effects so you can get out of there and reposition? Right now, I find Dig In to be moderately useful, but the second it breaks, there's almost no feedback and I get murdered pretty quick.
For Threat: Overall, the changes to threat have been pretty good. I still find it incredibly difficult in a multi-mob encounter to tell when someone is pulling threat from me without hovering my reticle over every mob. Not very precise, and with the chaos and mob/character snapping due to lag/graphics stuff, very unpredictable.
If I could see my own threat bar over each of the mobs while I'm in tank mode, that would be, I mean, that would be huge! It would probably alleviate a lot of my threat issues right now. It's not that it's impossible to get threat back, or hold it (with Anvil + passive, and ET, I find this to be pretty straightforward most times), it's that I can't keep up with the aggro changing so quickly around me with multiple mobs. It's a lot more straightforward in a boss fight. Not as big of a deal. But in normal dungeon crawling, seeing my threat above each Mob's HP bar would be a godsend to tanking.
For sustain: Even with a healer healing me, I found it difficult to tank and stay alive in some encounters. This might be due to the damage scaling not being right in dungeons yet, but the stamina regen passive really needs a boost. I'm not getting nearly enough stamina back in between boss swings during boss fights. I find myself having to use Dig In just to regenerate stamina so I don't die. But then I'm not being active in the fight, just sort of standing there like an idiot waiting for the DPS to pull aggro off me again so I can Anvil or ET it right back. I'm assuming that's not the intended playstyle, correct? If so, I think our options are to reduce damage taken somehow with shield down, or provide a better mechanism to get stamina back. The passive just isn’t fast enough. I can’t hold aggro and generate stamina fast enough to keep blocking during a boss fight.
For DPS: In general, this wasn’t too bad in TONG. Other than the fact that the vorpal enchant is scaling all wrong (I posted in another thread), it’s actually pretty enjoyable. We’re getting closer to a good place with Dreadnought for DPS imo, so your hard work isn’t going unappreciated. Your bug fix to ITF works btw. If I’m >50% vengeance, it no longer drains me down to 50%. There was a few bugs where I couldn’t get party members with it, even when they were only about 10’ away, but it was infrequent, and not enough details there to help you out to troubleshoot.
There’s some meh feats to choose from, and we’re still locked into a specific choice/path, so I don’t think dreadnought will have a lot of variation in playstyle. Griffons Wrath is still bugged, and like others have said, that final animation is brutal. We could really do with shortening that. That’s a lot of time to spend in the air about to be hit. It runs counter to the fast reaction “Riposte with our shield” idea I think you’ve got for Dreadnought. That’s a ton of time I’m getting hit just to do a meh amount of damage for the final hit. I find myself shield canceling it and only ever using the first two swings so I don’t die while using the third.
Other than that, I think the improvements being made are steady and moving in the right direction.
Again, if one thing from my post stands out that would help (for all classes), it would be to see your threat meter against mobs above their health bar. But especially for tanks. This will help us feel like we can monitor, protect, and control fights and feel like we’re “tanking” instead of watching party members dying without having a chance to react and pull something off them in time.
Thanks for your hard work so far! Anxious to see what the next round of patches holds!
Thanks for the feedback! I am glad to hear that the handful of changes I have had time to make for fighter this last week have all been positive. I hope to have more in the next build, and I apologize for the relatively slow pace of the changes. I look forward to reading your feedback once more changes are in!
To be clear, I do not specifically intend for Dreadnought to seek out and take hits to build their DPS, if they are going to get hit, such as by an unavoidable whitenoise attack, you definitely can block to get that vengeance boost though. In reality, for group play, you are intended to seethe to maintain your vengeance, and supplement it with blocking when the opportunity arises.
I understand that seethe may not be up everyone's ally. The idea is you are watching your foe from behind your shield, building up a hatred for them before striking them down, this gives dreadnought a unique sort of combat pace when compared with other classes, but the damage boost from vengeance should make it worth it, vengeance does build up fairly quickly when seething.
That said, I will be trying to make sure that vengeance always feels worth building, and that maybe there are some feat options for those who do and do not like the seethe mechanic to modify it in ways that make the pacing feel more comfortable for them.
P.S. It's actually a risk that Dreadnought will become a class that seeks out getting hit by AoEs, and creates a risky and frustrating situation, so we are keeping a careful eye on this, to make sure it doesn't feel necessary to intentionally get hit by mechanics.
Feedback (Consideration?)
I would actually try to theme the feat paths differently to try to address this issue:
Make one path the simpler "deals more damage when attacking", while the other path is themed around a high risk high reward style that is based around getting hit and counter attacking.
The current general theme of "AoE vs. single target" is serviceable and straight forwards, but lacks the flair or differentiation in gameplay style you see on the Ranger's specs (lightning/melee/trapper/archer). I get that Fighter has always been a fairly simple concept as a class, but the changes thus far don't seem to change much about how I play.
If you'd want a concept for how the high risk high reward path would look like, I'm going to steal borrow Sharp's Rogue tank concept in the spoiler below (it's a long read and I'd rather not clutter this page than it needs to be).
Swashbuckler/Duelist (The new path). This is going to be a tank path for rogue. Yep, you heard me, I am mad. A tank. Mechanically, tab will change from stealth to duelist's stance, which is a toggle. While it is active, you move at half of base speed and shift is changed from a dodge to Parry. The way Parry works is as follows:
Perfect Parry: If you press shift within 0.25 seconds of it hitting you, you mitigate 100% of the incoming hit and your cooldowns are reduced by 1 second.
Adequate Parry: If you press shift within 0.25-0.5 seconds of the incoming hit, you mitigate 80% of the incoming hit, then lose stamina proportional to the percentage of hp lost.
Parry: If you press shift within 0.5-1 second of the incoming hit, you mitigate 50% of the incoming hit, then lose stamina proportional to the percentage of hp lost.
If your timing is out by over 1 second, you take full damage and stamina is not consumed.
The way this tank rogue is intended to be played is as a hybrid dps/tank, where it is more squishy then a dps class if it gets hit, but has access to iframes from various sources which must be carefully timed in order to not get hit. The class generates aggro equal to 130% of its damage and unlike other tank classes it does not take a 30% damage penalty. The penalty to playing this class is the much higher skill cap required to play it.
Duelist: Level 1: Feign Death - If an attack would reduce you to 0 hitpoints, instead set you to 40% hitpoints. This can only occur once every 2 minutes. Death Wish - When you drop below 40% hitpoints, gain 25% increased damage for 10 seconds.
Level 2: Uncanny Evasion - Your Immunity Frames last 0.15 seconds longer, but you take 10% increased damage from hits. Brutality - Your Immunity Frames are 0.15 seconds shorter, but you deal 25% increased damage.
Level 3: Infuriating Finesse - Whenever you successfully parry an attack, generate 25% more threat for the next 4 seconds. Collateral Damage - Whenever you successfully parry an attack, deal 20 magnitude damage to all enemies in 10'.
Level 4: Crude Parry - Adequate Parries have the damage reduction of a perfect parry, but perfect parry consumes stamina as if you had performed an Adequate parry. Parry Mastery - You cannot make a normal parry but perfect riposte's cause your next 4 hits automatically critical hit.
Level 5: Risky Actions - Taking a single hit for more than 35% of your hitpoints increases your damage by 20% for 6 seconds and reduces your cooldowns by 3 seconds. Defensive Posture - Lose 5% less stamina and take 5% less damage when you perform a normal riposte.
Class Features:
Dazzling Blades - Take and deal 5% increased damage. Your at wills generate 10% more threat.
Intuition - Taking a hit grants you intuition, reducing the damage from that hit by 20% and reducing hits for the next 6 seconds by 10%, then going on cooldown for 14 seconds.
Counterstrike - 30% chance to deal 200 magnitude damage when you iframe or parry an attack.
Long Winded - Lose 10% less stamina when you adequate or normal parry.
Thanks for the feedback, I agree that currently the choices are too simple, and am hoping to make some improvements as soon as I am able.
Cos, well you can tank od Dreadnought as well...there is absolutely no reason to go Vanguard, not at eng game parties for sure
Have you tried that, or are you just saying that?
You cannot tank as Dreadnought end game. Not very well. The aggro mechanics are all wrong, you have no way to pull aggro from a squishy. You have those tools as Vanguard.
Additionally, you will die faster. I know everyone's been giving Dig In a lot of flak, and to be fair, it needs some work still (Asterdahl is working on it), it's not useless. And Dig in > Seethe for tanking by a lot.
My party did significantly better with me in Vanguard mode, and letting the 3 DPS do their thing, than with me as a terrible tank in Dreadnought providing a 4th DPS that was only about 30-40% more than my Vanguard.
I get that we're all very frustrated with where things are at right now. That doesn't excuse us from repeating other people's assumptions and fears without the data to back it up. Get a 5 man going and do CR, or TONG or FBI on Preview right now. Try and tank as Dreadnought. I found it to be incredibly frustrating. You can't keep people alive, and your healer runs around trying to heal everyone and yells at you for not holding aggro.
In Vanguard, the problems disappeared pretty quick.
There's still work that needs to be done, but your statement is just wrong. Demonstrably wrong.
He was indeed wrong that you could run party PvE content as Dread-Tank. He was correct in that Dread (based solely on my 2 week preview experience) appears to hold aggro better then Vanguard. Still testing the recent updates.
The aggro dependence on damage is crippling to the Vanguard imo. I get that Asterdahl wants active (instead of passive) threat generation. But threat can be active and NOT DPS based. Let Van be that exception. At least, Vanguard should have some supplement or base multiplier for the damage portion of the threat equation.
I do understand that there a lot of frustrating elements at play right now, with various bugs, and with the damage of various classes in flux, but I would like to clarify some things about "damage based threat." I believe you may be getting caught up on the wrong part of threat being damage based, threat being damage based does not mean that you need to eclipse your DPS's damage in order to hold threat. I do not believe that damage based threat is at the core of any of the problems or issues currently present in preview.
I've been trying to explain the way that damage based threat works for those struggling, and I apologize that I've repeatedly failed to convey the concept clearly. So I'd like to make another attempt! (Please note, I'm using hypothetical numbers for this example.)
Sally the DPS and Jane the Tank are both in a level 30 dungeon fighting an Orc.
>Sally hits the orc with a fireball for 500 damage. (She generates 500 threat) >Jane hits the orc with linebreaker for 100 damage. (But she generates 1000 threat because linebreaker generates "additional threat" and she has a passive threat bonus, so 100x5x2 = 1000.)
Jane has the enemy's attention.
Sally and Jane keep leveling up, and they both get stronger equipment, and soon they're in a level 80 dungeon fighting a Dragon.
>Sally hits the dragon with a fireball for 5000 damage. (She generates 5000 threat) >Jane hits the dragon with linebreaker for 1000 damage. (But she generates 10000 threat because linebreaker generates "additional threat" and she has a passive threat bonus, so 1000x5x2 = 10000.)
Jane has the enemy's attention.
As you can see from the example, in both cases, Sally did much more damage, but Jane was able to keep the enemy's attention. Jane's ability to keep the enemy's attention increased as the base damage of her powers did, with her character's equipment getting better and better.
That's really the core concept of damage based threat, as opposed to hard taunts, as you get stronger, you get better at holding threat. So in order to hold threat off of a DPS, you just have to keep getting stronger along with them. You don't need to eclipse their damage or even come close, you just need to get better at a similar pace. Of course, how much leeway there is, or how much worse your equipment can be before you start struggling with threat, is something we are carefully watching. We definitely want to ensure that you can hold threat if you're very focused on it, even off of a much stronger DPS, but if you're very good, you can maybe focus more on pure damaging powers and still keep the enemy's attention.
Not a huge fan of the (imo) overuse of linked feat-power-power combos. As many others have said, these links pigeon-hole your load-outs and force unwanted encounters on us. But, the Landwaster-Earthshaker-Shockwave combination feels great. Lots of left-brain strategy involved in forming a vengeance maintenance-to-combo plan. And a very satisfying payoff in the end. But shockwave needs a target visual on the first press like the old "impact". I'm sure that's been said already, But misses alot.
I agree, the Landwaster is a very unique feat, especially considering that you don't need to slot in Shockwave in your second daily slot for the free choices. My only complaints with the feat are that are auto locked into Earthshaker and that Shockwave has ... targetting issues.
I am actually a bit shocked that other classes don't make use of this combo system outlined by Landwaster, as I can see a bit of potential with this system.
For example, you could have things on Barbarian like using Adamantine Strike followed up by Spinning Strike (the concept could be a feat based around mob destroying daily chains similar to Landwaster, even though I know Spinning Strike isn't well received... ).
I think some more interesting uses could be if a daily attack granted a free use of an encounter power (balanced around the fact that dailies are a rare resource anyways), or if an at-will granted a free use of an encounter power (you would need to tweak the damage on the follow up encounter so it isn't broken), but I don't know if the programming would allow for that (I am guessing it won't?).
I'd also pitch it to noworries. Assuming he isn't buried under a pile of paperwork, I think the more encounter heavy classes he's working on could have some interesting applications for the feats (I am not a Rogue player, but I think those players could imagine a ton of possibilities of this combo system to make up for a lack of reliable cooldown reductions).
I am happy to hear people are enjoying Landwaster, I was happy with how that feat turned out. I do apologize for the issues we are currently having with the targeting indicator for linear powers, and appreciate the patience as we work on that issue.
I am certainly considering the application of similar feats for other classes where appropriate.
Cos, well you can tank od Dreadnought as well...there is absolutely no reason to go Vanguard, not at eng game parties for sure
Have you tried that, or are you just saying that?
You cannot tank as Dreadnought end game. Not very well. The aggro mechanics are all wrong, you have no way to pull aggro from a squishy. You have those tools as Vanguard.
Additionally, you will die faster. I know everyone's been giving Dig In a lot of flak, and to be fair, it needs some work still (Asterdahl is working on it), it's not useless. And Dig in > Seethe for tanking by a lot.
My party did significantly better with me in Vanguard mode, and letting the 3 DPS do their thing, than with me as a terrible tank in Dreadnought providing a 4th DPS that was only about 30-40% more than my Vanguard.
I get that we're all very frustrated with where things are at right now. That doesn't excuse us from repeating other people's assumptions and fears without the data to back it up. Get a 5 man going and do CR, or TONG or FBI on Preview right now. Try and tank as Dreadnought. I found it to be incredibly frustrating. You can't keep people alive, and your healer runs around trying to heal everyone and yells at you for not holding aggro.
In Vanguard, the problems disappeared pretty quick.
There's still work that needs to be done, but your statement is just wrong. Demonstrably wrong.
He was indeed wrong that you could run party PvE content as Dread-Tank. He was correct in that Dread (based solely on my 2 week preview experience) appears to hold aggro better then Vanguard. Still testing the recent updates.
The aggro dependence on damage is crippling to the Vanguard imo. I get that Asterdahl wants active (instead of passive) threat generation. But threat can be active and NOT DPS based. Let Van be that exception. At least, Vanguard should have some supplement or base multiplier for the damage portion of the threat equation.
I do understand that there a lot of frustrating elements at play right now, with various bugs, and with the damage of various classes in flux, but I would like to clarify some things about "damage based threat." I believe you may be getting caught up on the wrong part of threat being damage based, threat being damage based does not mean that you need to eclipse your DPS's damage in order to hold threat. I do not believe that damage based threat is at the core of any of the problems or issues currently present in preview.
I've been trying to explain the way that damage based threat works for those struggling, and I apologize that I've repeatedly failed to convey the concept clearly. So I'd like to make another attempt! (Please note, I'm using hypothetical numbers for this example.)
Sally the DPS and Jane the Tank are both in a level 30 dungeon fighting an Orc.
>Sally hits the orc with a fireball for 500 damage. (She generates 500 threat) >Jane hits the orc with linebreaker for 100 damage. (But she generates 1000 threat because linebreaker generates "additional threat" and she has a passive threat bonus, so 100x5x2 = 1000.)
Jane has the enemy's attention.
Sally and Jane keep leveling up, and they both get stronger equipment, and soon they're in a level 80 dungeon fighting a Dragon.
>Sally hits the dragon with a fireball for 5000 damage. (She generates 5000 threat) >Jane hits the dragon with linebreaker for 1000 damage. (But she generates 10000 threat because linebreaker generates "additional threat" and she has a passive threat bonus, so 1000x5x2 = 100-0.)
Jane has the enemy's attention.
As you can see from the example, in both cases, Sally did much more damage, but Jane was able to keep the enemy's attention. Jane's ability to keep the enemy's attention increased as the base damage of her powers did, with her character's equipment getting better and better.
That's really the core concept of damage based threat, as opposed to hard taunts, as you get stronger, you get better at holding threat. So in order to hold threat off of a DPS, you just have to keep getting stronger along with them. You don't need to eclipse their damage or even come close, you just need to get better at a similar pace. Of course, how much leeway there is, or how much worse your equipment can be before you start struggling with threat, is something we are carefully watching. We definitely want to ensure that you can hold threat if you're very focused on it, even off of a much stronger DPS, but if you're very good, you can maybe focus more on pure damaging powers and still keep the enemy's attention.
1. Does Fighter self healing add to +aggro at all ? 2. Does passive damage dealt add to +aggro (Briartwine reflect, Tenebrous, Ferocious Reaction feat, Reflected dmg from master boon) ? 3. Does Fighter party heals from daily Second Wind (feated) add to +aggro ?
Elite Whaleboy
3
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
edited March 2019
> @asterdahl said: > Cos, well you can tank od Dreadnought as well...there is absolutely no reason to go Vanguard, not at eng game parties for sure > > > > Have you tried that, or are you just saying that? > > You cannot tank as Dreadnought end game. Not very well. The aggro mechanics are all wrong, you have no way to pull aggro from a squishy. You have those tools as Vanguard. > > Additionally, you will die faster. I know everyone's been giving Dig In a lot of flak, and to be fair, it needs some work still (Asterdahl is working on it), it's not useless. And Dig in > Seethe for tanking by a lot. > > My party did significantly better with me in Vanguard mode, and letting the 3 DPS do their thing, than with me as a terrible tank in Dreadnought providing a 4th DPS that was only about 30-40% more than my Vanguard. > > I get that we're all very frustrated with where things are at right now. That doesn't excuse us from repeating other people's assumptions and fears without the data to back it up. Get a 5 man going and do CR, or TONG or FBI on Preview right now. Try and tank as Dreadnought. I found it to be incredibly frustrating. You can't keep people alive, and your healer runs around trying to heal everyone and yells at you for not holding aggro. > > In Vanguard, the problems disappeared pretty quick. > > There's still work that needs to be done, but your statement is just wrong. Demonstrably wrong. > > He was indeed wrong that you could run party PvE content as Dread-Tank. > He was correct in that Dread (based solely on my 2 week preview experience) appears to hold aggro better then Vanguard. > Still testing the recent updates. > > The aggro dependence on damage is crippling to the Vanguard imo. I get that Asterdahl wants active (instead of passive) threat generation. But threat can be active and NOT DPS based. Let Van be that exception. > At least, Vanguard should have some supplement or base multiplier for the damage portion of the threat equation. > > > > I do understand that there a lot of frustrating elements at play right now, with various bugs, and with the damage of various classes in flux, but I would like to clarify some things about "damage based threat." I believe you may be getting caught up on the wrong part of threat being damage based, threat being damage based does not mean that you need to eclipse your DPS's damage in order to hold threat. I do not believe that damage based threat is at the core of any of the problems or issues currently present in preview. > > I've been trying to explain the way that damage based threat works for those struggling, and I apologize that I've repeatedly failed to convey the concept clearly. So I'd like to make another attempt! (Please note, I'm using hypothetical numbers for this example.) > > Sally the DPS and Jane the Tank are both in a level 30 dungeon fighting an Orc. > > >Sally hits the orc with a fireball for 500 damage. (She generates 500 threat) > >Jane hits the orc with linebreaker for 100 damage. (But she generates 1000 threat because linebreaker generates "additional threat" and she has a passive threat bonus, so 100x5x2 = 1000.) > > Jane has the enemy's attention. > > Sally and Jane keep leveling up, and they both get stronger equipment, and soon they're in a level 80 dungeon fighting a Dragon. > > >Sally hits the dragon with a fireball for 5000 damage. (She generates 5000 threat) > >Jane hits the dragon with linebreaker for 1000 damage. (But she generates 10000 threat because linebreaker generates "additional threat" and she has a passive threat bonus, so 1000x5x2 = 100-0.) > > Jane has the enemy's attention. > > As you can see from the example, in both cases, Sally did much more damage, but Jane was able to keep the enemy's attention. Jane's ability to keep the enemy's attention increased as the base damage of her powers did, with her character's equipment getting better and better. > > That's really the core concept of damage based threat, as opposed to hard taunts, as you get stronger, you get better at holding threat. So in order to hold threat off of a DPS, you just have to keep getting stronger along with them. You don't need to eclipse their damage or even come close, you just need to get better at a similar pace. Of course, how much leeway there is, or how much worse your equipment can be before you start struggling with threat, is something we are carefully watching. We definitely want to ensure that you can hold threat if you're very focused on it, even off of a much stronger DPS, but if you're very good, you can maybe focus more on pure damaging powers and still keep the enemy's attention.
Thank you for the explanation, @asterdahl. I understand the concept and the math. When playing Vanguard it feels like a variable is missing from the equation.
Frequency of damage? Asterdahl, I am indeed an ascerbic <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> at times but I swear by Sune atm not trying to irritate you: I appreciate your hard work, love this game and want to keep playing as a Vanguard tank.
I'm trying it your way. 19k, I smack everything in sight, use the feat-power combos for threat. Use DigIn/Breathe.
If that formula is the complete picture, why do I keep losing aggro to DPS?
<font color="cyan">Edit: Nevermind. Spent 1 1/2 day since your updates. Feeling the Jane alot more now. Thanks.</font>
Post edited by dread4moor on
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
As Said before by several other player the The 30% damage reduction for Vanguard is at minimum strange. I understand the logic of a Tank class doing less dmg than a DPS, but if tank skills make less dmg by default why add 30% on top of it?
Other problem I see in the game, and find strange is the Cap on status being the same for all roles, in life server I play Tactic GF and my dmg output is high mainly cuz i have 100% crit thats the same CAP as other dps classes.
I would like to propose a Change to CAP's According to Role, a tank class "Fighter/barbarian/pally" should have higher caps in defensive status than other class.
exemple:
Tank - DR cap at 80% , Deflect cap at 70% DPS _ DR cap at 50%, deflect cap at 30%
This changes would make tank more important in group content, allowing us to survive longer than DPS classes specially in fighter's if both tank and dps fighter have block and block the same and both have the same cap's the difference between then is only the dmg, if both survive the same and 1 kills faster in long run DPS fighter survives longer.
Threat still a problem when my dps companion still get all the aggro away from me, I can see parties without tank using companions as main tank.
Following the K.I.S.S. way of fixing things.AKA keep it simple stupid, for any that are not aware . Why don't you just swap the way the game looks at our two paths and make the Dreadnought the tank path and call the Vanguard are DPS path, keep all else the same. You are welcome.
>Sally hits the dragon with a fireball for 5000 damage. (She generates 5000 threat) >Jane hits the dragon with linebreaker for 1000 damage. (But she generates 10000 threat because linebreaker generates "additional threat" and she has a passive threat bonus, so 1000x5x2 = 100-0.)
Jane has the enemy's attention.
OK, i think i get concept of threat. My question is, does that passive threat bonus constant value you're trying to set or is it related to some character statistic?
I'd suggest to make passive threat bonus combination od tank defensive statistic, that way even players that have their character focused on defensive stats should generate similar amount of threat to more damage oriented characters.
Someone might say "But these values caps at some point and there's no point to add mor into them". True but some ppl likes to put on gear that rise def statistics even if their caped and not gaining advantage from that ( well maybe it's just odd little me that do that ). With my idea even odd builds like that should be viable tanks having threat generation similar to others.
@dread4moor , you should try this setup if having aggro issues in multitarget fights
I already use rank 14 lightning. Tried feated bull charge and linebreaker for a week with mixed results. Have not used Tremor since the recent update, so that's worth a try.
Always open to new ideas. Thanks.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
> @dread4moor said: > @dread4moor , you should try this setup if having aggro issues in multitarget fights > > I already use rank 14 lightning. > Tried feated bull charge and linebreaker for a week with mixed results. > Have not used Tremor since the recent update, so that's worth a try. > > Always open to new ideas. Thanks.
What rotation + weapon enchant do you use for boss fights?
Cos, well you can tank od Dreadnought as well...there is absolutely no reason to go Vanguard, not at eng game parties for sure
Have you tried that, or are you just saying that?
You cannot tank as Dreadnought end game. Not very well. The aggro mechanics are all wrong, you have no way to pull aggro from a squishy. You have those tools as Vanguard.
Additionally, you will die faster. I know everyone's been giving Dig In a lot of flak, and to be fair, it needs some work still (Asterdahl is working on it), it's not useless. And Dig in > Seethe for tanking by a lot.
My party did significantly better with me in Vanguard mode, and letting the 3 DPS do their thing, than with me as a terrible tank in Dreadnought providing a 4th DPS that was only about 30-40% more than my Vanguard.
I get that we're all very frustrated with where things are at right now. That doesn't excuse us from repeating other people's assumptions and fears without the data to back it up. Get a 5 man going and do CR, or TONG or FBI on Preview right now. Try and tank as Dreadnought. I found it to be incredibly frustrating. You can't keep people alive, and your healer runs around trying to heal everyone and yells at you for not holding aggro.
In Vanguard, the problems disappeared pretty quick.
There's still work that needs to be done, but your statement is just wrong. Demonstrably wrong.
He was indeed wrong that you could run party PvE content as Dread-Tank. He was correct in that Dread (based solely on my 2 week preview experience) appears to hold aggro better then Vanguard. Still testing the recent updates.
The aggro dependence on damage is crippling to the Vanguard imo. I get that Asterdahl wants active (instead of passive) threat generation. But threat can be active and NOT DPS based. Let Van be that exception. At least, Vanguard should have some supplement or base multiplier for the damage portion of the threat equation.
I do understand that there a lot of frustrating elements at play right now, with various bugs, and with the damage of various classes in flux, but I would like to clarify some things about "damage based threat." I believe you may be getting caught up on the wrong part of threat being damage based, threat being damage based does not mean that you need to eclipse your DPS's damage in order to hold threat. I do not believe that damage based threat is at the core of any of the problems or issues currently present in preview.
I've been trying to explain the way that damage based threat works for those struggling, and I apologize that I've repeatedly failed to convey the concept clearly. So I'd like to make another attempt! (Please note, I'm using hypothetical numbers for this example.)
Sally the DPS and Jane the Tank are both in a level 30 dungeon fighting an Orc.
>Sally hits the orc with a fireball for 500 damage. (She generates 500 threat) >Jane hits the orc with linebreaker for 100 damage. (But she generates 1000 threat because linebreaker generates "additional threat" and she has a passive threat bonus, so 100x5x2 = 1000.)
Jane has the enemy's attention.
Sally and Jane keep leveling up, and they both get stronger equipment, and soon they're in a level 80 dungeon fighting a Dragon.
>Sally hits the dragon with a fireball for 5000 damage. (She generates 5000 threat) >Jane hits the dragon with linebreaker for 1000 damage. (But she generates 10000 threat because linebreaker generates "additional threat" and she has a passive threat bonus, so 1000x5x2 = 100-0.)
Jane has the enemy's attention.
As you can see from the example, in both cases, Sally did much more damage, but Jane was able to keep the enemy's attention. Jane's ability to keep the enemy's attention increased as the base damage of her powers did, with her character's equipment getting better and better.
That's really the core concept of damage based threat, as opposed to hard taunts, as you get stronger, you get better at holding threat. So in order to hold threat off of a DPS, you just have to keep getting stronger along with them. You don't need to eclipse their damage or even come close, you just need to get better at a similar pace. Of course, how much leeway there is, or how much worse your equipment can be before you start struggling with threat, is something we are carefully watching. We definitely want to ensure that you can hold threat if you're very focused on it, even off of a much stronger DPS, but if you're very good, you can maybe focus more on pure damaging powers and still keep the enemy's attention.
Nice, except it doesnt work like that. Or your description is very very limited here. Of course you can grab aggro on Vanguard - trouble is with holding it.
To the point - previously you claimed that you want to avoid hard taunts, and that threat menagement should be damage dependant. OK but such skills putting you on top of threat list are in fact hard taunts - am I correct here? Now you giving an example with basic threat generation formula, and it should be fine but its definietly not working like intended. I am putting aside that this example of yours shows ideal situation with tank being on same level then dps in terms of IL etc. Problem is how long such hard tunt works? If its effect is "on use only" or there is some growing threat pool , and as long tank is able to get it filled faster then dpses he holds aggro? Because so far there is a problem - despite using all passives etc, a dps can take aggro back 1 sec after you used such skill. So its all about bad timing, or there is some kind of internall issue here?
And on top of that - to the damage/threat model. Somehow enforced threat do no damage at all, still it grabes aggro, and it actually do not fit to your description at all.
Any chance you can provide us a full formula of threat generation? I doubt that, but then keep in mind that it can end up with no Fighters picking tank spec or that it will be just one rotation to keep aggro or its gona be vary dependant on companions,enchantments and so on. And that way its gona end up with one vanilla build/rotation/gear setup. Sure, sure we are tanks I know...but we are no bots.
After last preview build, I have absolutely no problem holding aggro in endgame parties. Both multi- and singletarget feels awesome. This makes me very curious as to why so many Fighter Vanguards seem to have aggro issues. Could you please share your current build ?
About enforced threat - I noticed that sometimes even regular mobs are immune to its disorient effect. It seems to affect also a threat generation. And please add even the smallest damage magnitude to it - we need a indicator who was hit/how our aggro is distibuted.
And one more observation. New mod will bring a need to every1 start to behave different. Today we can walk inside the mobs cluster and AA was a life saver. No1 literally no1 nor tanks or dps was afraid of his life. And I belive after we get a rid of those ridiculous habits lot of current problems will go away with them - just a thought
And one more small testing - runned solo epic Shores of Tuern both on live and test servers. Live - went Iron Vanguard on full protector with bit of tactitian - 9.30 minuts to complete Test - Vanguard - 18 minutes. (no new gear just companions sorted out for full tankiness)
If eSoT has its difficulty still not reworked its a nice indicator or real dps drop on tank mod to mod change.
@dread4moor , you should try this setup if having aggro issues in multitarget fights
I already use rank 14 lightning. Tried feated bull charge and linebreaker for a week with mixed results. Have not used Tremor since the recent update, so that's worth a try.
Always open to new ideas. Thanks.
If our holding aggro gona be weapon enchantment dependant......
To the point - previously you claimed that you want to avoid hard taunts, and that threat menagement should be damage dependant. OK but such skills putting you on top of threat list are in fact hard taunts - am I correct here?
No: A hard taunt is "you must attack me, regardless of your threat meter, for X time". The powers that set you as top threat are not doing that.
Somehow enforced threat do no damage at all, still it grabes aggro, and it actually do not fit to your description at all.
That's because it looks at the enemy threat table, and sets your threat to be at the top.
In his example, Sally had 5000 threat and Jane generated 10000 threat. Imagine, instead, that Sally has been pounding on that enemy and has generated 50000 threat while Jane fought something else, and now the mob is chasing her.
Jane could follow, generating 10000 threat per hit, and would eventually catch up, but it might take a while, especially if Sally keeps hitting the mob as she runs.
Jane instead uses Enforced Threat, which looks at the mob, sees that Sally has top threat at 50000, and sets Jane's threat to 55000. Now Jane has aggro again, so the mob goes after her. She attacks, generating another 10000 threat, and Sally also attacks, generating another 5000. The mob's table now reads Jane: 65000 and Sally: 55000.
No: A hard taunt is "you must attack me, regardless of your threat meter, for X time". The powers that set you as top threat are not doing that.
So you say putting you on top of the threat list is not to force mobs to attack you? Well that explains a lot here.... or wait it did work like that in your example...
Hard taunt is forced aggro relocation - nothing else. And that how those skills actually work. And since there is no damage involved with Enforced Threat it works pretty much like old mark - just without visible markings. So yeah thats a taunt. In many MMOs it goes hand in hand with detaunt ability on damage dealers or healers, and since here there is none, all struggle is about holding aggro not grabbing it.
I do understand that there a lot of frustrating elements at play right now, with various bugs, and with the damage of various classes in flux, but I would like to clarify some things about "damage based threat." I believe you may be getting caught up on the wrong part of threat being damage based, threat being damage based does not mean that you need to eclipse your DPS's damage in order to hold threat. I do not believe that damage based threat is at the core of any of the problems or issues currently present in preview.
I've been trying to explain the way that damage based threat works for those struggling, and I apologize that I've repeatedly failed to convey the concept clearly. So I'd like to make another attempt! (Please note, I'm using hypothetical numbers for this example.)
Sally the DPS and Jane the Tank are both in a level 30 dungeon fighting an Orc.
>Sally hits the orc with a fireball for 500 damage. (She generates 500 threat) >Jane hits the orc with linebreaker for 100 damage. (But she generates 1000 threat because linebreaker generates "additional threat" and she has a passive threat bonus, so 100x5x2 = 1000.)
Jane has the enemy's attention.
Sally and Jane keep leveling up, and they both get stronger equipment, and soon they're in a level 80 dungeon fighting a Dragon.
>Sally hits the dragon with a fireball for 5000 damage. (She generates 5000 threat) >Jane hits the dragon with linebreaker for 1000 damage. (But she generates 10000 threat because linebreaker generates "additional threat" and she has a passive threat bonus, so 1000x5x2 = 100-0.)
Jane has the enemy's attention.
As you can see from the example, in both cases, Sally did much more damage, but Jane was able to keep the enemy's attention. Jane's ability to keep the enemy's attention increased as the base damage of her powers did, with her character's equipment getting better and better.
That's really the core concept of damage based threat, as opposed to hard taunts, as you get stronger, you get better at holding threat. So in order to hold threat off of a DPS, you just have to keep getting stronger along with them. You don't need to eclipse their damage or even come close, you just need to get better at a similar pace. Of course, how much leeway there is, or how much worse your equipment can be before you start struggling with threat, is something we are carefully watching. We definitely want to ensure that you can hold threat if you're very focused on it, even off of a much stronger DPS, but if you're very good, you can maybe focus more on pure damaging powers and still keep the enemy's attention.
Thanks for trying to make sure we're all on the same page. I think most folks are familiar with the high level overview you presented. The concern I personally have is that if our damage is multiplied by .7 on top of having encounter powers slotted that do not directly deal damage or increase threat (costing up to 60% of DPS according to ya'lls theory of 1/5, 3/5, 1/5 damage split between power types even before the .7 modifier) and we don't have extra stats to sink into power and crit, we will not be able to keep up with the threat output of DPS players that are a couple thousand IL higher and maintain threat.
To be clear, I don't think we should have hard taunts and I don't think we should always have aggro - DPS (like in many similar games) needs to have the skills to control their damage output and not take aggro away from the tank. But there needs to be a trade off, if we do less damage we should be taking less damage, have some special tools to allow us to survive, etc. And I don't see that happening so far.
Part of this is really the design failure of players being able to max (and overmax) every stat. There is no differentiation between the classes if everyone can get max defense, deflect, power, crit etc. This will end up just like the 5 CW meta. Vanguard (and tank Paladin and tank Barbie) needs something to give it the kind of survival that the DPS classes can't have (the old block was perfect this way, but definitely needed to have Stamina not regenerate while it was up). And it needs to reasonably be able to keep focus through the damage it deals.
As much as it was a major part of most tank builds, I am glad to see the whole team shields of KV and bubble go away. If ya'll can sort out the stats malarkey and give the tanks/dps/heal roles something to really differentiate them this could be a lot of fun. As it sits with the theme elements mucking up the mechanics (dig-in? Really?!?) and being more or less required to use the Lightning enchant to get decent AoE for aggro generation, I'd rather play my tank toons in other games.
Thanks for working with us on this, I really hope to see the 30% reduction go away like you've talked about and further improvements made before this goes live.
"being more or less required to use the Lightning enchant to get decent AoE for aggro generation",
In my experiments I found it to be possible to hold aggro with both Vorpal and Plaguefire enchantments. Lightning is just a very easy way of maintaining aggro on groups. If you use any other enchant, you just have to use some of the awesome mobility skills at our disposal and get ready for your healer to get grumpy
Edit : I agree 110% that dig-in is horrible and that we need a new and or improved tab-mechanic
@dread4moor , you should try this setup if having aggro issues in multitarget fights
I can't help but note that the majority of the things on that chart are not, in fact, fighter powers.
That is correct. The lightning enchant deals a lot of damage (at least my tests show that, feel free to disprove) in my Vanguard loadout. Tenebrous enchants are also dealing a lot more than I expected. Also note that feated Cleave (Cleave+Cleaving Bull) beats Linebreaker and is close to Bull Charge in dmg dealt. Maybe our encounters needs a little tweaking ?
No: A hard taunt is "you must attack me, regardless of your threat meter, for X time". The powers that set you as top threat are not doing that.
So you say putting you on top of the threat list is not to force mobs to attack you? Well that explains a lot here.... or wait it did work like that in your example...
That's correct, "put me on top of the threat meter" and "force the monster to attack me regardless of threat meter" are not, in fact, the same thing.
The difference between "you must attack me for 10 seconds" and "I am at the top of your aggro list" is that with the first one, after 10 seconds the aggro goes back to using the list, and if you were way behind before you're probably still behind now and you lose aggro. Whereas, in the second case, you might lose aggro again before 10 seconds is up if someone else is pulling harder than you.
Regardless, "put me at the top of the threat meter" is a soft taunt, not a hard one.
This is a log from a longer fight (etos up to first mini-boss), first log is from the new Varaksondom-something zone. I dont think those lvl 80 mobs have enough lightning resistance
Elite Whaleboy
0
silvergryphMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 740Arc User
No: A hard taunt is "you must attack me, regardless of your threat meter, for X time". The powers that set you as top threat are not doing that.
So you say putting you on top of the threat list is not to force mobs to attack you? Well that explains a lot here.... or wait it did work like that in your example...
Hard taunt is forced aggro relocation - nothing else. And that how those skills actually work. And since there is no damage involved with Enforced Threat it works pretty much like old mark - just without visible markings. So yeah thats a taunt. In many MMOs it goes hand in hand with detaunt ability on damage dealers or healers, and since here there is none, all struggle is about holding aggro not grabbing it.
A hard taunt ignores the aggro table altogether, it doesn't necessarily interact with it at all. It works by actually interrupting the AI of the mob and inserting a script to attack the taunter regardless of the current threat table. The problem with that is that they then return to the threat table so the designers need to add more hard taunts to maintain aggro and the underlying threat mechanics and everything that has been balanced around them become irrelevant. Unless the tank didn't pick or execute the right powers, in which case they simpy can't hold threat.
The "place at the top" mechanic is much more elegant and can be made to work more fluidly with other mechanics. It is an instantaneous effect though, meaning that it doesn't keep doing anything after initial use. Its kind of like being in a foot race and teleporting to the front of the pack. Then you need to keep the lead. So you are absolutely correct that the struggle becomes more about holding aggro rather than grabbing it. There is a learning curve here for players to maintain that lead AND for designers to give them the tools to do so.
There is still something that makes you do extremely little or no damage when you use anvil in dreadnought build.
BUGG Activating Anvil reduces the damage from activation until end of animation.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Vorpal Weapon deals 5 Arcane Damage to Savage.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Anvil of Doom deals 106 Physical Damage to Savage. Best
Thanks for the report! I'll look into this as soon as I am able.
Update on this subject...
Running Hr Pal Justice and Dreadnought all have the same issues FIRST hit on mobs seem to do no damage like they have a shield absorbing damage.
This is non consistant and sometimes Anvil or Smite can do intended damage but 9/10 times first Smite and Anvils damage are reduced to almost nothing making first hit on Smite wasted and making Anvil more or less totally useless.
Dig-in could have an aggro multiplier inversely related to how much guard there is left.
e.g. Sally and Jane are fighting an Orc. Jane has the Orc's attention. A Goblin Archer joins the fight. Jane digs in. Sally shoots the Goblin Archer, so the Goblin Archer shoots back at Sally. Orc breaks down Jane's shield to under 50%. Goblin Archer now chooses to shoot Jane.
Comments
We will absolutely be working to ensure that tanks are necessary in group content.
I've been trying to explain the way that damage based threat works for those struggling, and I apologize that I've repeatedly failed to convey the concept clearly. So I'd like to make another attempt! (Please note, I'm using hypothetical numbers for this example.)
Sally the DPS and Jane the Tank are both in a level 30 dungeon fighting an Orc.
>Sally hits the orc with a fireball for 500 damage. (She generates 500 threat)
>Jane hits the orc with linebreaker for 100 damage. (But she generates 1000 threat because linebreaker generates "additional threat" and she has a passive threat bonus, so 100x5x2 = 1000.)
Jane has the enemy's attention.
Sally and Jane keep leveling up, and they both get stronger equipment, and soon they're in a level 80 dungeon fighting a Dragon.
>Sally hits the dragon with a fireball for 5000 damage. (She generates 5000 threat)
>Jane hits the dragon with linebreaker for 1000 damage. (But she generates 10000 threat because linebreaker generates "additional threat" and she has a passive threat bonus, so 1000x5x2 = 10000.)
Jane has the enemy's attention.
As you can see from the example, in both cases, Sally did much more damage, but Jane was able to keep the enemy's attention. Jane's ability to keep the enemy's attention increased as the base damage of her powers did, with her character's equipment getting better and better.
That's really the core concept of damage based threat, as opposed to hard taunts, as you get stronger, you get better at holding threat. So in order to hold threat off of a DPS, you just have to keep getting stronger along with them. You don't need to eclipse their damage or even come close, you just need to get better at a similar pace. Of course, how much leeway there is, or how much worse your equipment can be before you start struggling with threat, is something we are carefully watching. We definitely want to ensure that you can hold threat if you're very focused on it, even off of a much stronger DPS, but if you're very good, you can maybe focus more on pure damaging powers and still keep the enemy's attention.
I am certainly considering the application of similar feats for other classes where appropriate.
A few questions about threat generation :
1. Does Fighter self healing add to +aggro at all ?
2. Does passive damage dealt add to +aggro (Briartwine reflect, Tenebrous, Ferocious Reaction feat, Reflected dmg from master boon) ?
3. Does Fighter party heals from daily Second Wind (feated) add to +aggro ?
> Cos, well you can tank od Dreadnought as well...there is absolutely no reason to go Vanguard, not at eng game parties for sure
>
>
>
> Have you tried that, or are you just saying that?
>
> You cannot tank as Dreadnought end game. Not very well. The aggro mechanics are all wrong, you have no way to pull aggro from a squishy. You have those tools as Vanguard.
>
> Additionally, you will die faster. I know everyone's been giving Dig In a lot of flak, and to be fair, it needs some work still (Asterdahl is working on it), it's not useless. And Dig in > Seethe for tanking by a lot.
>
> My party did significantly better with me in Vanguard mode, and letting the 3 DPS do their thing, than with me as a terrible tank in Dreadnought providing a 4th DPS that was only about 30-40% more than my Vanguard.
>
> I get that we're all very frustrated with where things are at right now. That doesn't excuse us from repeating other people's assumptions and fears without the data to back it up. Get a 5 man going and do CR, or TONG or FBI on Preview right now. Try and tank as Dreadnought. I found it to be incredibly frustrating. You can't keep people alive, and your healer runs around trying to heal everyone and yells at you for not holding aggro.
>
> In Vanguard, the problems disappeared pretty quick.
>
> There's still work that needs to be done, but your statement is just wrong. Demonstrably wrong.
>
> He was indeed wrong that you could run party PvE content as Dread-Tank.
> He was correct in that Dread (based solely on my 2 week preview experience) appears to hold aggro better then Vanguard.
> Still testing the recent updates.
>
> The aggro dependence on damage is crippling to the Vanguard imo. I get that Asterdahl wants active (instead of passive) threat generation. But threat can be active and NOT DPS based. Let Van be that exception.
> At least, Vanguard should have some supplement or base multiplier for the damage portion of the threat equation.
>
>
>
> I do understand that there a lot of frustrating elements at play right now, with various bugs, and with the damage of various classes in flux, but I would like to clarify some things about "damage based threat." I believe you may be getting caught up on the wrong part of threat being damage based, threat being damage based does not mean that you need to eclipse your DPS's damage in order to hold threat. I do not believe that damage based threat is at the core of any of the problems or issues currently present in preview.
>
> I've been trying to explain the way that damage based threat works for those struggling, and I apologize that I've repeatedly failed to convey the concept clearly. So I'd like to make another attempt! (Please note, I'm using hypothetical numbers for this example.)
>
> Sally the DPS and Jane the Tank are both in a level 30 dungeon fighting an Orc.
>
> >Sally hits the orc with a fireball for 500 damage. (She generates 500 threat)
> >Jane hits the orc with linebreaker for 100 damage. (But she generates 1000 threat because linebreaker generates "additional threat" and she has a passive threat bonus, so 100x5x2 = 1000.)
>
> Jane has the enemy's attention.
>
> Sally and Jane keep leveling up, and they both get stronger equipment, and soon they're in a level 80 dungeon fighting a Dragon.
>
> >Sally hits the dragon with a fireball for 5000 damage. (She generates 5000 threat)
> >Jane hits the dragon with linebreaker for 1000 damage. (But she generates 10000 threat because linebreaker generates "additional threat" and she has a passive threat bonus, so 1000x5x2 = 100-0.)
>
> Jane has the enemy's attention.
>
> As you can see from the example, in both cases, Sally did much more damage, but Jane was able to keep the enemy's attention. Jane's ability to keep the enemy's attention increased as the base damage of her powers did, with her character's equipment getting better and better.
>
> That's really the core concept of damage based threat, as opposed to hard taunts, as you get stronger, you get better at holding threat. So in order to hold threat off of a DPS, you just have to keep getting stronger along with them. You don't need to eclipse their damage or even come close, you just need to get better at a similar pace. Of course, how much leeway there is, or how much worse your equipment can be before you start struggling with threat, is something we are carefully watching. We definitely want to ensure that you can hold threat if you're very focused on it, even off of a much stronger DPS, but if you're very good, you can maybe focus more on pure damaging powers and still keep the enemy's attention.
Thank you for the explanation, @asterdahl.
I understand the concept and the math.
When playing Vanguard it feels like a variable is missing from the equation.
Frequency of damage? Asterdahl, I am indeed an ascerbic <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> at times but I swear by Sune atm not trying to irritate you:
I appreciate your hard work, love this game and want to keep playing as a Vanguard tank.
I'm trying it your way. 19k, I smack everything in sight, use the feat-power combos for threat. Use DigIn/Breathe.
If that formula is the complete picture, why do I keep losing aggro to DPS?
<font color="cyan">Edit:
Nevermind. Spent 1 1/2 day since your updates. Feeling the Jane alot more now. Thanks.</font>
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Other problem I see in the game, and find strange is the Cap on status being the same for all roles, in life server I play Tactic GF and my dmg output is high mainly cuz i have 100% crit thats the same CAP as other dps classes.
I would like to propose a Change to CAP's According to Role, a tank class "Fighter/barbarian/pally" should have higher caps in defensive status than other class.
exemple:
Tank - DR cap at 80% , Deflect cap at 70%
DPS _ DR cap at 50%, deflect cap at 30%
This changes would make tank more important in group content, allowing us to survive longer than DPS classes specially in fighter's if both tank and dps fighter have block and block the same and both have the same cap's the difference between then is only the dmg, if both survive the same and 1 kills faster in long run DPS fighter survives longer.
Threat still a problem when my dps companion still get all the aggro away from me, I can see parties without tank using companions as main tank.
I'd suggest to make passive threat bonus combination od tank defensive statistic, that way even players that have their character focused on defensive stats should generate similar amount of threat to more damage oriented characters.
Someone might say "But these values caps at some point and there's no point to add mor into them". True but some ppl likes to put on gear that rise def statistics even if their caped and not gaining advantage from that ( well maybe it's just odd little me that do that ). With my idea even odd builds like that should be viable tanks having threat generation similar to others.
@dread4moor , you should try this setup if having aggro issues in multitarget fights
Tried feated bull charge and linebreaker for a week with mixed results.
Have not used Tremor since the recent update, so that's worth a try.
Always open to new ideas. Thanks.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
> @dread4moor , you should try this setup if having aggro issues in multitarget fights
>
> I already use rank 14 lightning.
> Tried feated bull charge and linebreaker for a week with mixed results.
> Have not used Tremor since the recent update, so that's worth a try.
>
> Always open to new ideas. Thanks.
What rotation + weapon enchant do you use for boss fights?
Of course you can grab aggro on Vanguard - trouble is with holding it.
To the point - previously you claimed that you want to avoid hard taunts, and that threat menagement should be damage dependant. OK but such skills putting you on top of threat list are in fact hard taunts - am I correct here?
Now you giving an example with basic threat generation formula, and it should be fine but its definietly not working like intended. I am putting aside that this example of yours shows ideal situation with tank being on same level then dps in terms of IL etc. Problem is how long such hard tunt works? If its effect is "on use only" or there is some growing threat pool , and as long tank is able to get it filled faster then dpses he holds aggro?
Because so far there is a problem - despite using all passives etc, a dps can take aggro back 1 sec after you used such skill. So its all about bad timing, or there is some kind of internall issue here?
And on top of that - to the damage/threat model.
Somehow enforced threat do no damage at all, still it grabes aggro, and it actually do not fit to your description at all.
Any chance you can provide us a full formula of threat generation?
I doubt that, but then keep in mind that it can end up with no Fighters picking tank spec or that it will be just one rotation to keep aggro or its gona be vary dependant on companions,enchantments and so on. And that way its gona end up with one vanilla build/rotation/gear setup. Sure, sure we are tanks I know...but we are no bots.
After last preview build, I have absolutely no problem holding aggro in endgame parties. Both multi- and singletarget feels awesome. This makes me very curious as to why so many Fighter Vanguards seem to have aggro issues. Could you please share your current build ?
About enforced threat - I noticed that sometimes even regular mobs are immune to its disorient effect. It seems to affect also a threat generation. And please add even the smallest damage magnitude to it - we need a indicator who was hit/how our aggro is distibuted.
And one more observation. New mod will bring a need to every1 start to behave different. Today we can walk inside the mobs cluster and AA was a life saver. No1 literally no1 nor tanks or dps was afraid of his life. And I belive after we get a rid of those ridiculous habits lot of current problems will go away with them - just a thought
And one more small testing - runned solo epic Shores of Tuern both on live and test servers.
Live - went Iron Vanguard on full protector with bit of tactitian - 9.30 minuts to complete
Test - Vanguard - 18 minutes. (no new gear just companions sorted out for full tankiness)
If eSoT has its difficulty still not reworked its a nice indicator or real dps drop on tank mod to mod change.
In his example, Sally had 5000 threat and Jane generated 10000 threat. Imagine, instead, that Sally has been pounding on that enemy and has generated 50000 threat while Jane fought something else, and now the mob is chasing her.
Jane could follow, generating 10000 threat per hit, and would eventually catch up, but it might take a while, especially if Sally keeps hitting the mob as she runs.
Jane instead uses Enforced Threat, which looks at the mob, sees that Sally has top threat at 50000, and sets Jane's threat to 55000. Now Jane has aggro again, so the mob goes after her. She attacks, generating another 10000 threat, and Sally also attacks, generating another 5000. The mob's table now reads Jane: 65000 and Sally: 55000.
Well that explains a lot here.... or wait it did work like that in your example...
Hard taunt is forced aggro relocation - nothing else. And that how those skills actually work.
And since there is no damage involved with Enforced Threat it works pretty much like old mark - just without visible markings. So yeah thats a taunt.
In many MMOs it goes hand in hand with detaunt ability on damage dealers or healers, and since here there is none, all struggle is about holding aggro not grabbing it.
To be clear, I don't think we should have hard taunts and I don't think we should always have aggro - DPS (like in many similar games) needs to have the skills to control their damage output and not take aggro away from the tank. But there needs to be a trade off, if we do less damage we should be taking less damage, have some special tools to allow us to survive, etc. And I don't see that happening so far.
Part of this is really the design failure of players being able to max (and overmax) every stat. There is no differentiation between the classes if everyone can get max defense, deflect, power, crit etc. This will end up just like the 5 CW meta. Vanguard (and tank Paladin and tank Barbie) needs something to give it the kind of survival that the DPS classes can't have (the old block was perfect this way, but definitely needed to have Stamina not regenerate while it was up). And it needs to reasonably be able to keep focus through the damage it deals.
As much as it was a major part of most tank builds, I am glad to see the whole team shields of KV and bubble go away. If ya'll can sort out the stats malarkey and give the tanks/dps/heal roles something to really differentiate them this could be a lot of fun. As it sits with the theme elements mucking up the mechanics (dig-in? Really?!?) and being more or less required to use the Lightning enchant to get decent AoE for aggro generation, I'd rather play my tank toons in other games.
Thanks for working with us on this, I really hope to see the 30% reduction go away like you've talked about and further improvements made before this goes live.
Edit : I agree 110% that dig-in is horrible and that we need a new and or improved tab-mechanic
The difference between "you must attack me for 10 seconds" and "I am at the top of your aggro list" is that with the first one, after 10 seconds the aggro goes back to using the list, and if you were way behind before you're probably still behind now and you lose aggro. Whereas, in the second case, you might lose aggro again before 10 seconds is up if someone else is pulling harder than you.
Regardless, "put me at the top of the threat meter" is a soft taunt, not a hard one. Nobody said it wasn't, but it's still a soft taunt, not a hard one.
@fenrir4life
This is a log from a longer fight (etos up to first mini-boss), first log is from the new Varaksondom-something zone. I dont think those lvl 80 mobs have enough lightning resistance
The "place at the top" mechanic is much more elegant and can be made to work more fluidly with other mechanics. It is an instantaneous effect though, meaning that it doesn't keep doing anything after initial use. Its kind of like being in a foot race and teleporting to the front of the pack. Then you need to keep the lead. So you are absolutely correct that the struggle becomes more about holding aggro rather than grabbing it. There is a learning curve here for players to maintain that lead AND for designers to give them the tools to do so.
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Running Hr Pal Justice and Dreadnought all have the same issues FIRST hit on mobs seem to do no damage like they have a shield absorbing damage.
This is non consistant and sometimes Anvil or Smite can do intended damage but 9/10 times first Smite and Anvils damage are reduced to almost nothing making first hit on Smite wasted and making Anvil more or less totally useless.
Best
Dig-in could have an aggro multiplier inversely related to how much guard there is left.
e.g. Sally and Jane are fighting an Orc.
Jane has the Orc's attention.
A Goblin Archer joins the fight.
Jane digs in.
Sally shoots the Goblin Archer, so the Goblin Archer shoots back at Sally.
Orc breaks down Jane's shield to under 50%.
Goblin Archer now chooses to shoot Jane.