Official M16: Fighter Feedback

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Comments

  • dread4moor
    dread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    Bug: No Heroic Feats.
    Exactly what it says: Fighter apparently has no heroic feats (none displayed, at least). I logged this back on week 1 of owlbear, but seeing as you've been busy doing a lot of work/power updates, I'm not surprised this slipped through the cracks.

    Hopefully, you'll give us a hint as to what the intended/not displayed Heroic Feats are supposed to be?


    asterdahl said:



    Frontline Surge is only going away for Barbarians. That being said, I will say that I am making some encounter adjustments in this week's build: shield throw will now be a base fighter ability, and piercing thrust will be going away and Dreadnought will be getting a new AoE instead.


    Seeing as I saw many people wanting some ranged aggro option, I honestly think more people would prefer Shield Toss as the Vanguard's Tab mechanic rather than Dig In.

    Making Shield Throw a Vanguard exclusive mechanic would fulfill the want for a ranged aggro option, not eat too many dev resources for making a new power, and possibly solve Shield Throw being kind of ridiculous on Dreadnought in PvP (probably will need adjustments to Anvil/Bull Charge/damage in general so damage is not concentrated in 3 presses, but moving Shield Throw to the weaker in DPS Vanguard should partially mitigate the PvP 3 button rotation).

    I would also modify the power to fit its status as mechanic.

    For example, I'd adjust the damage down to ~100 magnitude in addition to having a 5 second cooldown (to keep it as its status as an opener/occasional thing to toss at enemies to get aggro and not as a free spammable ranged At-will), getting rid of the stun (possibly give the option for a stun in a Vanguard exclusive feat or class feature?), and possibly reduce the animation length or even give the player a decrease to damage taken while the shield is in flight (so players don't toss their shield then die from a ranged option because they don't have their shield to protect themselves)

    Even with your buffs to Dig In, I still can't see people using Dig In for general purpose Vanguard play due to its status as a redundant Guard.

    For general purpose play, I'd take the faster startup and mobility of the basic Guard any day, as the CA Bonus immunity and decrease to damage taken don't really help you when you lose all your Stamina and are now sitting in the middle of a pack of mobs. I can barely see Dig In being useful on certain boss mechanics where you have ample time to Dig In and prepare (ex: Brink of Death or Duumvirate), but apart from that, Guard is the superior option in most circumstances.

    If you want players to utilize Dig In on Vanguard, I'd actually consider a Vanguard exclusive feat/class feature that lets you turn Guard into Dig In.
    On Vanguard turn Tab into Shield throw (for ranged aggro, not DPS)?
    imagehttps://i.imgur.com/SPVE9u1.png
    Hell yeah. Sounds good +1
    We need tab for hard taunt. Call it DigIn. Call it Shield throw.
    Call it tickle-your-HAMSTER-with-a-feather. Just make Vanguard Tab an aggro!

    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    silence1x said:

    @asterdahl - dude, get some sleep . . . seriously. Your work on this Mod is not going unnoticed but I don't think any of us want you to get burned out ;)

    I'm quite alright, I assure you! I do appreciate the sentiment though, truly.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    marnival said:

    Hi again mr non stop working @asterdahl, am starting to wish for your sake that some other write and you just consent p).

    I been running new campain both Vangard and Dreadnought and the difference is to say the least huge.

    It has been posted before but it is so imortant that I feel I need to write it here again. Vanguards feat set up combined with encounters is MORE then enough to make it do so much less damage that any base damage nerf is just destroying the dps for this path.
    .


    I have read that the basic class balance is that a tank should do about 30% less dps then the dps path/classes.
    Well i can tell you that is not the case more like 30% OF the dps classes in reality.

    I also read about testing and I will gladly let ANY Vanguard challange my Dreadnought build and try to be anywhere near 30% less dps. I also run Hr though new campain and I tested Vanguard with several Barbarians dps build and Wizard and even some Clerics and if you try to actualy play tank that is using Taunt powers AoE and block you are miles from being 70% of their dps.

    1. Remove the 30% damage reduction from Vanguard it is already built into the mechanics.
    2. Make block have at least 150% absorbtion of what it has now, it is not useful and you loose way to much hp if you are to stand and block heavy hitting mobs and several at the time is impossible as it vanish in 1-2 seconds.
    3. Reduce the downtime, or at least put a feat for it, on encounters that is purely aggro building with minimal damage
    4. Let Vanguards block protect from Red in 360 degrees so you don not get cced when you block round red areas in front of bosses.

    As it is now the lack of dps in no way compensate for the little difference in tanking between the 2 path.
    Playing Dreadnought is still somewhat clunky and slow compared to what you are used to on live but it has its rewards but playing Vanguard as some put it makes you think about doing the ironing as it is both less boring and more rewarding.

    Best

    Ps do not know if it is reported but feating bullcharge on Vanguard still knocks back and gives nothing in return.

    Thanks for doing some testing on the differences between the two paragon paths on preview, I appreciate it!

    I may reduce or remove the reduction for next week's build, but bear in mind that as we finalize balance, the adjustment may swing back the other way if necessary. I just want to make this clear so it's not surprising if I reduce it and have to bring it back up later.

    We haven't hit anywhere near a final DPS balance pass, so that's when you should start to see close to that 70% mark.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    marnival said:

    Dreadnought feated Anvil;

    BUGG: using anvil result in almost no damage same through hole maste dungeon.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Vorpal Weapon deals 3 Arcane Damage to Arachnomancer.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Anvil of Doom deals 68 Physical Damage to Arachnomancer.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Barkshield Armor absorbs 2 (1) damage from Warrior's Quick Stab.


    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Anvil of Doom deals 208 (189) Physical Damage to Skeletal Giant.
    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Vorpal Weapon deals 10 (9) Arcane Damage to Skeletal Giant.



    Thanks for the report, I'll be looking into this.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    manipulos said:

    asterdahl said:


    I appreciate the steady and continued feedback! I'll take a look and see what improvements we can make to Griffon's Wrath. In regards to what changes are coming to vengeance—I have nothing specific to share at this exact moment, but I will update you all when I do. What I basically meant in that paragraph was that as I re-examine feats, which I did not have a chance to build a second iteration of yet for Dreadnought—I'll be trying to focus on making sure the core rotations and vengeance interactions feel good, and don't fight with one another.

    Hopefully that answers your question, at least to the degree that's possible right now.

    So my question regarding Vengeance (I added the bold to your quote) - why the obsession with making Fighters take hits all the time to do more damage? It make sense when tanking, but when I was testing Dreadnought I was either kneeling down trying to refill vengeance while my party ran ahead of me, or I was jumping in trying to tank instead of focusing on dps by getting combat advantage positioning etc. I slotted the class ability that let me run 25% faster after 2 seconds JUST so I could use seethe to regain vengeance and then run and catch back up to the party for the next fight, or run ahead of my party and tank some hits quick and try not to die. Or when in a longer fight I would step back and kneel down again so I could build up some more anger I guess, which is pretty silly if you think about it logically.

    The way combat advantage is working right now there's no way for a Dreadnought to reliably take hits and have a chance to gain combat advantage unless you are standing on top of the tank so you are exactly opposite of another dps in your party, because they are standing directly opposite of the tank so they can do more damage and not take hits to the face. I might as well tank at that point as I need to have all the defenses of a tank to take the hits in the first place.

    To be clear, I do not specifically intend for Dreadnought to seek out and take hits to build their DPS, if they are going to get hit, such as by an unavoidable whitenoise attack, you definitely can block to get that vengeance boost though. In reality, for group play, you are intended to seethe to maintain your vengeance, and supplement it with blocking when the opportunity arises.

    I understand that seethe may not be up everyone's ally. The idea is you are watching your foe from behind your shield, building up a hatred for them before striking them down, this gives dreadnought a unique sort of combat pace when compared with other classes, but the damage boost from vengeance should make it worth it, vengeance does build up fairly quickly when seething.

    That said, I will be trying to make sure that vengeance always feels worth building, and that maybe there are some feat options for those who do and do not like the seethe mechanic to modify it in ways that make the pacing feel more comfortable for them.

    P.S. It's actually a risk that Dreadnought will become a class that seeks out getting hit by AoEs, and creates a risky and frustrating situation, so we are keeping a careful eye on this, to make sure it doesn't feel necessary to intentionally get hit by mechanics.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    gripnir78 said:


    OK now about tanking issues MOD 16.
    First of all its really hard to talk about a class without mentioning a ability scores change. Sure we fighters are in a good spot right now but still even if you wont change abilities bonuses being class related as before you should at least give us a real roll possibility. Those templates are.......

    Now boons - ok after reading a forum I realised that all here are cheating - as they copied my boons choices! I already had 65 points so I took all real usefull options out of those boons. But there is absolutely no real options there - no to mention that there is no boons increasing tanking abilities.....

    Threat generation - OK thats gona be hard.
    @asterdahl if you still hold to the idea that grabing and keeping agro is about to be demage dependant than you can already  delete fighter tank. Yup actually you can delete Paladin and Barbarian tanks as well, as I dont type that with just a fighter class feature/machanis -30% dps in mind. 


    There is  a lot more severe issue for any tank. Puting aside ridiculous ideas about „HP tanking”
    I seen here – have you ever counted how many more statistic points tank needs to just hit a defensive caps for rating 24 000 end game mobs? A bit over 160k. Even if some1 choose to sacrifice a deflection its still over 100k of rating you need here. And if a tank would like to increase his HP/shield pool he would have to deplete avilable points even more to do so. And that dont decrease a tanks needs in their dps abilities – as those still need to be high to grab/keep agro as it is damage dependant.

    That alone puts any tank here in a real disadvanatge. Dps or healers do not need none of those defensive statistics. Sure they wont get a rid of them entirely as its not possible due to gear composition, but they can and they will put all their points elswhere. And that disparity with other classes/builds will grow higher with every new module and overall mobs ratings increase.
    Just imagine 2k increase – dps classes would have to increase just Arpen and Critchance and Accuracy – 6k in total – rest gona go in power, and a tank? Def+Defl+Critres+Awer+Arpen+Accur its a 10k if he would also add crit chance its another 2k if he wont he will be loosing critical hits and damage and agro with it. And there is no power mentioned here – so dps classes gona hit harder while tank will spare same points pool to just remain as resilent as he was and there may be no points left to increase his dps/aggro in compare to rest of the party – so he will have more and more trouble with grabbing and holding agro. While I actually like a mechanic change as a good change to the game, it really have a serious oversight mentioned above

    So that -30%damage on top of that is nothing more then tombstone for tankig Fighter. (and it is in fact a -30% agro reduction as I doubt a bonus threat exceeds that 30% lost here)

    And do not forget that if any Vanguard will want to switch to Dreadnought (or vice versa) it will require new set of gear and enchants – its gona be more expensive – lot more expensive to play such class then pure dps class

    Don wanna make it longer as another changes gona hit test server soon – in short about fighter - Dreadnaught is fine. I enjoyed playing it. Sure its damage output is not great and 3 defensive companion slots are not helping here. But its a nice path
    But Vanguard? You cant feel it has beter tanking abilities at all. Dig In is a joke – first time in my life I got a ability button to go afk in a MMO game. Never seen worse thing in any MMO. Saw tons of poor/unrewarding/or weak in comparison to pick skills – but that is beyond that. Sethe is worthless as well. Actually both paths are lot better to play, if you disable tab mechanics. (I still automaticly push tab as if was usefull lol)It those remain such useless I will need a new keyboard with at least 1 key moved underneath it to put Fighter mechanics there



    Hello and thanks for taking the time to check out the changes on preview and let them sit with you for a while before composing your thoughts! I also have played tanks a lot in MMOs, it tends to be my go to role (gotta love those fast queues.) (Quick aside: I have played all roles in a variety of MMOs, including raiding environments, so before anyone jumps to any conclusions, I am not giving tank any sort of personal priority!)

    I'd like to take a moment to address some of your concerns and questions. First: the 30% damage reduction, I've addressed this a bunch elsewhere, but I'll repeat it again—the end goal is for a dps built tank to clock in at about 70% of a pure DPS's damage dealt. That power will be adjusted down as we hone in on final balance, or it may not be needed at all, we'll see!

    That said, let me clarify what I mean by "tanks must do damage to hold threat." I do not mean that they must exceed the DPS's damage, they have threat multipliers to ensure they can hold threat over a DPS that does more damage than them (otherwise, you'd just run all tanks if they could do more damage than a DPS to hold threat.)

    This isn't particularly a strange or new concept in the realm of MMOs, but if you've never really had a back and forth with the developer of an MMO about it, you may not have considered how you do need to increase your damage as a way to hold threat. It's usually a sort of basic part of tank design, but Neverwinter's pre Mod 16 tank design relied so heavily on forced taunts that threat became a non-mechanic so now as I am here reworking it, you're getting a close up glimpse of that tuning process, it takes some time to get those numbers right.

    Finally, in regards to stats: you do not need to cap all of your stats to tank, just like DPS do not need to cap all of their stats to DPS. Obviously, it's great if you can, but nothing in the game is balanced to require you to cap every defensive stat. I have been tanking a lot of our endgame content internally and I am not using a maxed out character with fully capped stats for those tests.

    I hope you'll keep playing on preview as more changes make it to the server. There aren't a ton of fighter changes this week, and I haven't fixed the responsiveness of dig in, so I apologize for that, but I am hoping to have more changes in for next week's build.
  • prejekpaddlefish
    prejekpaddlefish Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    Levelling a brand new fighter to 70 on preview through zones and soloing dungeons.
    Trying the complete the quest Theft of the Crown was very boring, and Cornering Karzov was more difficult than I would expect. If I were a new player I would quit the game based on my impression of gameplay here! Unable to kill enemies using at wills, gameplay amounted to holding mousebutton while waiting for Earthshaker to charge. Shield Slam is not helpful as the first encounter you get because it does little damage and spreads enemies, slowing down progress.
    If Cleave is not to get a damage increase, then give it an effect like Slow or an Aggro multipler. Also increase the base damage on the weapon starting adventurers get, to speed their progress. I would like new players to not be deterred from playing based on the boring impression of holding their mouse and waiting for the daily to charge.

    With Dig-in, I find the HUD is obscuring my character when kneeling so I cannot tell from a glance if I have gone into Dig-in in the middle of combat surrounded by mobs. I think the animation would look cooler if the shield were higher over the adventurers head, looking like they were shielding themselves from a rain of overhead blows. Having the shield up over the head would make it easier to see if you are Dug-in.
    Also, I think the adventurer should be able to rotate slowly while Dug-in, thereby choose the direction they are facing when they break out of Dig-in.
    I think Dig-in should pulse Threat, as if nearby monsters see the fighter drop and close in to finish them off.
  • gripnir78
    gripnir78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    @asterdahl I belive you missed my point a bit.

    First of all, you cant disclaim that tanks in your picture need more stats then any dps class. Sure you do not need to max all of them at once as you mentioned, but since dps classes can choose to abandon defensive stats completly its obvious that tanks are in disadvanage here as they cant trade offensive stats for defensive once completly.
    No one expect a Wizard to tank, but Paladins and Fighter are expected to do so, if on tank spec.
    That alone in natural way substract substantial amount of avilable statistic points from offensive stats pool of tanks. And you cant deny that with every new zone/mobs rating increase it will be growing disparity. And its really not important if you run BIS toon or middle or low IL one. Disparity still exist here.

    I wonder how much such demanded distribution is decreasing tanks damage output. If you want tanks to be just 30% behind pure dps I wont be suprised if that distribution alone do the trick. But you decided to grab even 30% more with adding that class mechanic.
    I am not sayin that it can be even larger gap between tanks and dps classes with damage output- it should be, but only when tanks would be rewarded with some other way. And I am sorry to say that but you offer nothing in return.

    I wont be suprised if lets say 16k IL Wizard who puts some points in defensive stats (like capping DR) would be overall more damage proof than 14k IL tank who wont cap defensive stats. If there is no some behind a scene mechanics out there, statistics distribution is only thing witch differs tanks form dpses atm.
    Shield alone is not good enaugh, especialy when all Tab mechanics are nothing more but a joke.
    Want to keep that mechanic with -30% dps reduction – fine, keep it, or even increase it, but add to that + 5% for all defensive stats and +20% more HP tanks only role bonus?
    Let us feel like tanks! As for now we are not tanks – we are just weaker dps classes here.

    Sure threat multiplayer should slove grabbing/holding aggro issue – but for now its not working - waiting for a update here.But, having hard taunt in current situation is not that bad idea –as daily maybe?
    Currently we hardly have an option to hold agrro not to mention a moments of heavy burst from dps. Yes, I do agree that it should be a tank job to be ready and retake aggro if needed – but as for now we have no toll to do that. Sure there is a skill putting you on top of agro, but its on coll down and if you are supposed to run with 3dps party, and of those guys gona be on your IL level (no to mention higher level) and competent players – good luck with that. I am aware that properly working aggro holding system should finally work as a team aggro menagement - dpses should watch not to over dops target and tanks

    And cos of issue mentioned above it will be returning problem with every new MOD incereasing enemy ratings. As dps classes would increase their dmg output while tanks would need to fill gaps in their defences first. Anything left for offensive stats would be worth -30% less so.... thats encouraging.....


    I am aware that need of creation of 3 distinguished from each other tank classes at same time is a hard task as those clases have to basicaly do the same job using 3 different methods. (I really wonder why you gave a Barbarian tank spec) If any of those will be weaker at same level players will quickly become angry and will abandon such class. And lets not forget that even if you gona create large numbers of skills and distribute those between tanks there need to be a place to use them in-game. As I said its hard job for you to do here but some global idea of tanking is necesery to be implemented fisrt across a board before you gona do the tweaks for any class. For now I cant see that idea, and even if there is one, I can hardly see it implemented at current state of test server.
    Post edited by gripnir78 on
  • gripnir78
    gripnir78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    ok one more thong then

    And here is a friend of mine's stats:


    Every single stat capped, no augment pet.

    Wait, you can cap all stats without an augment pet? Well damn, and here I thought mod 16 was gonna make augment pets come back into style.
    How tanks are about to feel tanks if that above is dps Barbarian?
    So, with that in mind I simply exchange 30% of dps output for a fast diminishing hp shield? Nice...
    It seems that Dreadnought is gona be only choice for fighters....

  • marnival
    marnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    gripnir78 said:

    ok one more thong then

    And here is a friend of mine's stats:


    Every single stat capped, no augment pet.

    Wait, you can cap all stats without an augment pet? Well damn, and here I thought mod 16 was gonna make augment pets come back into style.
    How tanks are about to feel tanks if that above is dps Barbarian?
    So, with that in mind I simply exchange 30% of dps output for a fast diminishing hp shield? Nice...
    It seems that Dreadnought is gona be only choice for fighters....

    Yes in solo probably no in group. Vanguard has all the needed tools for being an agro magnet, yea well if things would actualy work...

    On paper the reduced damage from feats/class powers + aggro from encounters/abilities should secure a for a solid tank that should be able to control the battlefield and the mobs so they dont wipe the party.

    The problem is the tanking part and the aggro part atm :-).

    Dreadnought sure has a dps advantage on Vanguard and but cant aggro if his life depended on it except for pure dps.

    Vanguard do have better aggro tools but dps is in a sad state if you want to put in as friendly as possible.

    Now the not so good thing in this scenario is that Vanguard do not tank better, or it is so little nobody notice.
    The dps he gives up for being able to tank and take aggro is about the ratio of 100/1 not a good one.

    I pretty sure they can fix the aggro part without ot much trubble what am seriously worried about is the tanking part which I see no effort or hints that it is being fixed.

    Best
  • gripnir78
    gripnir78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 374 Arc User
    marnival said:

    gripnir78 said:

    ok one more thong then

    And here is a friend of mine's stats:


    Every single stat capped, no augment pet.

    Wait, you can cap all stats without an augment pet? Well damn, and here I thought mod 16 was gonna make augment pets come back into style.
    How tanks are about to feel tanks if that above is dps Barbarian?
    So, with that in mind I simply exchange 30% of dps output for a fast diminishing hp shield? Nice...
    It seems that Dreadnought is gona be only choice for fighters....

    Yes in solo probably no in group. Vanguard has all the needed tools for being an agro magnet, yea well if things would actualy work...

    On paper the reduced damage from feats/class powers + aggro from encounters/abilities should secure a for a solid tank that should be able to control the battlefield and the mobs so they dont wipe the party.

    The problem is the tanking part and the aggro part atm :-).

    Dreadnought sure has a dps advantage on Vanguard and but cant aggro if his life depended on it except for pure dps.

    Vanguard do have better aggro tools but dps is in a sad state if you want to put in as friendly as possible.

    Now the not so good thing in this scenario is that Vanguard do not tank better, or it is so little nobody notice.
    The dps he gives up for being able to tank and take aggro is about the ratio of 100/1 not a good one.

    I pretty sure they can fix the aggro part without ot much trubble what am seriously worried about is the tanking part which I see no effort or hints that it is being fixed.

    Best
    That exactly my point. There is no place for tanking atm. Tanks were insignifican for last couple of updates and that seems to remain that way. Add to that huge overall statistic overflow on all classes and it looks like Dreadnought shield would be just fine for most content (if not all). If any end game toon would be as resilent as tank (same DR, all def stats nad HP) it wont be important if you hold agro that much, and actually it even should be easier to grab mobs attention with yours significantly higher dps output.

    So yeah Vanguard is ok on paper and I am afraid that even with aggro control repair it wont change much.
    Will do more test after new patch but so far Vanguard is completly broken (that encounter +20%DR for 10 sec is like....WHAT? )

    To make this working they should implement 2 mechnics:

    DPS spec - all your defensive abilities have 25% efectivness penalty you have 10%HP penalty and your aggro is 25% lower

    TANK spec - all your dps abilities have 25% effectivness penalty you have 10% HP bonus and your aggro generation is 25% higher

    And/OR remove entire combined rating from items (maybe adding a little more stats to items like 10% of combined rating value)
  • fenrir4life
    fenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User
    gripnir78 said:

    marnival said:

    gripnir78 said:

    ok one more thong then

    And here is a friend of mine's stats:


    Every single stat capped, no augment pet.

    Wait, you can cap all stats without an augment pet? Well damn, and here I thought mod 16 was gonna make augment pets come back into style.
    How tanks are about to feel tanks if that above is dps Barbarian?
    So, with that in mind I simply exchange 30% of dps output for a fast diminishing hp shield? Nice...
    It seems that Dreadnought is gona be only choice for fighters....

    Yes in solo probably no in group. Vanguard has all the needed tools for being an agro magnet, yea well if things would actualy work...

    On paper the reduced damage from feats/class powers + aggro from encounters/abilities should secure a for a solid tank that should be able to control the battlefield and the mobs so they dont wipe the party.

    The problem is the tanking part and the aggro part atm :-).

    Dreadnought sure has a dps advantage on Vanguard and but cant aggro if his life depended on it except for pure dps.

    Vanguard do have better aggro tools but dps is in a sad state if you want to put in as friendly as possible.

    Now the not so good thing in this scenario is that Vanguard do not tank better, or it is so little nobody notice.
    The dps he gives up for being able to tank and take aggro is about the ratio of 100/1 not a good one.

    I pretty sure they can fix the aggro part without ot much trubble what am seriously worried about is the tanking part which I see no effort or hints that it is being fixed.

    Best
    That exactly my point. There is no place for tanking atm. Tanks were insignifican for last couple of updates and that seems to remain that way. Add to that huge overall statistic overflow on all classes and it looks like Dreadnought shield would be just fine for most content (if not all). If any end game toon would be as resilent as tank (same DR, all def stats nad HP) it wont be important if you hold agro that much, and actually it even should be easier to grab mobs attention with yours significantly higher dps output.

    So yeah Vanguard is ok on paper and I am afraid that even with aggro control repair it wont change much.
    Will do more test after new patch but so far Vanguard is completly broken (that encounter +20%DR for 10 sec is like....WHAT? )

    To make this working they should implement 2 mechnics:

    DPS spec - all your defensive abilities have 25% efectivness penalty you have 10%HP penalty and your aggro is 25% lower

    TANK spec - all your dps abilities have 25% effectivness penalty you have 10% HP bonus and your aggro generation is 25% higher

    And/OR remove entire combined rating from items (maybe adding a little more stats to items like 10% of combined rating value)

    Given the lack of passive survivability boost to tanks relative to dps specs, it's worth asking the question "What is the intended paradigm for tank power usage?" Are we supposed to be able to survive most content on Guard and passive defenses, or are we expected to slot defensive Encounters? Are we supposed to be holding threat with damage, or slotting aggro manipulating Encounters? How much of our time ARE we intended to spend blocking(it's clearly not 100%, or even close to it, but I'm curious as to a ballpark) to stay alive in challenging content?
  • silvergryph
    silvergryph Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 740 Arc User
    gripnir78 said:

    @asterdahl I belive you missed my point a bit.

    First of all, you cant disclaim that tanks in your picture need more stats then any dps class. Sure you do not need to max all of them at once as you mentioned, but since dps classes can choose to abandon defensive stats completly its obvious that tanks are in disadvanage here as they cant trade offensive stats for defensive once completly.

    I would say that if a DPS class abandons defensive stats completely, then they should find themselves spending a lot of time dead. If that is not the case for any of them, then that is hopefully a bug of some kind.
  • fenrir4life
    fenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User

    gripnir78 said:

    @asterdahl I belive you missed my point a bit.

    First of all, you cant disclaim that tanks in your picture need more stats then any dps class. Sure you do not need to max all of them at once as you mentioned, but since dps classes can choose to abandon defensive stats completly its obvious that tanks are in disadvanage here as they cant trade offensive stats for defensive once completly.

    I would say that if a DPS class abandons defensive stats completely, then they should find themselves spending a lot of time dead. If that is not the case for any of them, then that is hopefully a bug of some kind.
    Yeah, but unless the devs swing back into oneshot mechanics (which I think we can all agree they were right to yeet), those dps will just blame the healers, anyway.
  • manipulos
    manipulos Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    gripnir78 said:

    @asterdahl I belive you missed my point a bit.

    First of all, you cant disclaim that tanks in your picture need more stats then any dps class. Sure you do not need to max all of them at once as you mentioned, but since dps classes can choose to abandon defensive stats completly its obvious that tanks are in disadvanage here as they cant trade offensive stats for defensive once completly.
    No one expect a Wizard to tank, but Paladins and Fighter are expected to do so, if on tank spec.
    That alone in natural way substract substantial amount of avilable statistic points from offensive stats pool of tanks. And you cant deny that with every new zone/mobs rating increase it will be growing disparity. And its really not important if you run BIS toon or middle or low IL one. Disparity still exist here.

    I wonder how much such demanded distribution is decreasing tanks damage output. If you want tanks to be just 30% behind pure dps I wont be suprised if that distribution alone do the trick. But you decided to grab even 30% more with adding that class mechanic.
    I am not sayin that it can be even larger gap between tanks and dps classes with damage output- it should be, but only when tanks would be rewarded with some other way. And I am sorry to say that but you offer nothing in return.

    I wont be suprised if lets say 16k IL Wizard who puts some points in defensive stats (like capping DR) would be overall more damage proof than 14k IL tank who wont cap defensive stats. If there is no some behind a scene mechanics out there, statistics distribution is only thing witch differs tanks form dpses atm.
    Shield alone is not good enaugh, especialy when all Tab mechanics are nothing more but a joke.
    Want to keep that mechanic with -30% dps reduction – fine, keep it, or even increase it, but add to that + 5% for all defensive stats and +20% more HP tanks only role bonus?
    Let us feel like tanks! As for now we are not tanks – we are just weaker dps classes here.

    Sure threat multiplayer should slove grabbing/holding aggro issue – but for now its not working - waiting for a update here.But, having hard taunt in current situation is not that bad idea –as daily maybe?
    Currently we hardly have an option to hold agrro not to mention a moments of heavy burst from dps. Yes, I do agree that it should be a tank job to be ready and retake aggro if needed – but as for now we have no toll to do that. Sure there is a skill putting you on top of agro, but its on coll down and if you are supposed to run with 3dps party, and of those guys gona be on your IL level (no to mention higher level) and competent players – good luck with that. I am aware that properly working aggro holding system should finally work as a team aggro menagement - dpses should watch not to over dops target and tanks

    And cos of issue mentioned above it will be returning problem with every new MOD incereasing enemy ratings. As dps classes would increase their dmg output while tanks would need to fill gaps in their defences first. Anything left for offensive stats would be worth -30% less so.... thats encouraging.....


    I am aware that need of creation of 3 distinguished from each other tank classes at same time is a hard task as those clases have to basicaly do the same job using 3 different methods. (I really wonder why you gave a Barbarian tank spec) If any of those will be weaker at same level players will quickly become angry and will abandon such class. And lets not forget that even if you gona create large numbers of skills and distribute those between tanks there need to be a place to use them in-game. As I said its hard job for you to do here but some global idea of tanking is necesery to be implemented fisrt across a board before you gona do the tweaks for any class. For now I cant see that idea, and even if there is one, I can hardly see it implemented at current state of test server.

    Hey @gripnir78 I brought up the issue with tanks needing more stats than others back on page 5 I think, so you're not the only one worried about this issue. You forgot to mention the removal of Armor Class as another reason tanks will need to stack more stats to be effective. :p

    The Combined stats makes it less of an issue especially at higher item levels, and I believe I saw Sharp mention somewhere that Crit Resistance and Avoidance are mostly a non-issue in PVE, but I'm thinking newer tank players will struggle more than their dps and healer counterparts.
  • marnival
    marnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    There is still something that makes you do extremely little or no damage when you use anvil in dreadnought build.

    BUGG
    Activating Anvil reduces the damage from activation until end of animation.

    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Vorpal Weapon deals 5 Arcane Damage to Savage.

    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Anvil of Doom deals 106 Physical Damage to Savage.

    Best

  • wilbur626
    wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,000 Arc User
    My current setup for Vanguard multitarget :

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C8QPaCEnK3DFNQ9e2PcFT6sZ5sdX7bevHw1khotS6y0/mobilebasic

    Vanguard is getting better, but I don't notice any changes to Dig In ? (@asterdahl)
    Elite Whaleboy
  • gripnir78
    gripnir78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited March 2019

    Vanguard

    1. Add even smallest damage to Enforced threat - magnitude 100? - we need to see witch of the mobs actually are affected with it and even smallest damage would be welcomed - its encounter after all so it shoud be doing something. Tremor seems to alredy do similar job so...
    2. Iron Warrior encounter is useless - at level 80 with already avilable good gear tank should have its DR capped already

    Solution - add here a Shield Throw form Dreadnought spec but without stun, with lesser damage and higher threat - its gona be ranged pull witch should be avilable for a tank as great tactical skill - pull mobs to team insted of rushing on them

    3. Determined defence feat - useless as Iron Warrior
    4. Dig In - take it away please it just ruining this class as we still auto click TAB.
    Its - going AFK skill and nothing else. I understand you have no idea how to fix it or replace it - just remove it. We dont need it as it makes nothing more than harm to our gameplay

    In general looks bit better will check on dungeons later.

    But I still cant see any real difference of tanks - we just weaker dpses here



  • gripnir78
    gripnir78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 374 Arc User
    manipulos said:

    gripnir78 said:

    @asterdahl I belive you missed my point a bit.

    First of all, you cant disclaim that tanks in your picture need more stats then any dps class. Sure you do not need to max all of them at once as you mentioned, but since dps classes can choose to abandon defensive stats completly its obvious that tanks are in disadvanage here as they cant trade offensive stats for defensive once completly.
    No one expect a Wizard to tank, but Paladins and Fighter are expected to do so, if on tank spec.
    That alone in natural way substract substantial amount of avilable statistic points from offensive stats pool of tanks. And you cant deny that with every new zone/mobs rating increase it will be growing disparity. And its really not important if you run BIS toon or middle or low IL one. Disparity still exist here.

    I wonder how much such demanded distribution is decreasing tanks damage output. If you want tanks to be just 30% behind pure dps I wont be suprised if that distribution alone do the trick. But you decided to grab even 30% more with adding that class mechanic.
    I am not sayin that it can be even larger gap between tanks and dps classes with damage output- it should be, but only when tanks would be rewarded with some other way. And I am sorry to say that but you offer nothing in return.

    I wont be suprised if lets say 16k IL Wizard who puts some points in defensive stats (like capping DR) would be overall more damage proof than 14k IL tank who wont cap defensive stats. If there is no some behind a scene mechanics out there, statistics distribution is only thing witch differs tanks form dpses atm.
    Shield alone is not good enaugh, especialy when all Tab mechanics are nothing more but a joke.
    Want to keep that mechanic with -30% dps reduction – fine, keep it, or even increase it, but add to that + 5% for all defensive stats and +20% more HP tanks only role bonus?
    Let us feel like tanks! As for now we are not tanks – we are just weaker dps classes here.

    Sure threat multiplayer should slove grabbing/holding aggro issue – but for now its not working - waiting for a update here.But, having hard taunt in current situation is not that bad idea –as daily maybe?
    Currently we hardly have an option to hold agrro not to mention a moments of heavy burst from dps. Yes, I do agree that it should be a tank job to be ready and retake aggro if needed – but as for now we have no toll to do that. Sure there is a skill putting you on top of agro, but its on coll down and if you are supposed to run with 3dps party, and of those guys gona be on your IL level (no to mention higher level) and competent players – good luck with that. I am aware that properly working aggro holding system should finally work as a team aggro menagement - dpses should watch not to over dops target and tanks

    And cos of issue mentioned above it will be returning problem with every new MOD incereasing enemy ratings. As dps classes would increase their dmg output while tanks would need to fill gaps in their defences first. Anything left for offensive stats would be worth -30% less so.... thats encouraging.....


    I am aware that need of creation of 3 distinguished from each other tank classes at same time is a hard task as those clases have to basicaly do the same job using 3 different methods. (I really wonder why you gave a Barbarian tank spec) If any of those will be weaker at same level players will quickly become angry and will abandon such class. And lets not forget that even if you gona create large numbers of skills and distribute those between tanks there need to be a place to use them in-game. As I said its hard job for you to do here but some global idea of tanking is necesery to be implemented first across a board before you gona do the tweaks for any class. For now I cant see that idea, and even if there is one, I can hardly see it implemented at current state of test server.

    Hey @gripnir78 I brought up the issue with tanks needing more stats than others back on page 5 I think, so you're not the only one worried about this issue. You forgot to mention the removal of Armor Class as another reason tanks will need to stack more stats to be effective. :p

    The Combined stats makes it less of an issue especially at higher item levels, and I believe I saw Sharp mention somewhere that Crit Resistance and Avoidance are mostly a non-issue in PVE, but I'm thinking newer tank players will struggle more than their dps and healer counterparts.
    Yup - actually in my guild you wont find any GF or GWF who would choose to go tank spec after MOD16 most cant see a point as every class would have same high defensive stats value. I guess OPs gona go tanking now as none of them want to be a designated healers :D

    Belive me or not I had tank spec all that time and it was usefull on many ocasion and far superion to Swordmaster vanilla lol build. But after MOD 16 if I still be around I definietly have no reason to play Vanguard. In comapre to Dreadnought - you cant fill more tanky, you just feel you are so much weaker, slower, clumsy with bunch of lol skills/feats and the most ridiculous mechanic in history of MMOs on top.
    Wanna play unrewarding class spec - go Fighter Vanguard
  • fanlaar#4089
    fanlaar#4089 Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    With every class having the same defensive and offensive stats available fighter becomes pretty much a useless class in Mod 16. Paladins become the tank and there is zero benefit to playing a DPS that isn't ranged. I'm still playing while holding out hope that they scrap most of the Mod 16 changes.
  • wilbur626
    wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,000 Arc User
    > @fanlaar#4089 said:
    > With every class having the same defensive and offensive stats available fighter becomes pretty much a useless class in Mod 16. Paladins become the tank and there is zero benefit to playing a DPS that isn't ranged. I'm still playing while holding out hope that they scrap most of the Mod 16 changes.

    What does Paladin do better than Fighter atm?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • gripnir78
    gripnir78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 374 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    > @fanlaar#4089 said:

    > With every class having the same defensive and offensive stats available fighter becomes pretty much a useless class in Mod 16. Paladins become the tank and there is zero benefit to playing a DPS that isn't ranged. I'm still playing while holding out hope that they scrap most of the Mod 16 changes.



    What does Paladin do better than Fighter atm?

    I belive he means that Paladins do not have the dps spec. So tanking is the only options for them unless they wanna heal. So while for a Fighter tank path is a joke, all of us would go Dreadnaught. That would leva all tanking for Paladins unless some Barbarians would like to tank but I never heard one of them wanting that..

    So its not about Paladin being better thank, its that no1 else would choose this path.

  • marnival
    marnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    > @fanlaar#4089 said:

    > With every class having the same defensive and offensive stats available fighter becomes pretty much a useless class in Mod 16. Paladins become the tank and there is zero benefit to playing a DPS that isn't ranged. I'm still playing while holding out hope that they scrap most of the Mod 16 changes.



    What does Paladin do better than Fighter atm?

    Buff, damage, ability to absorb damage.

    Vanguard should get the aggro part right with a few changes but dps is to low no real party utility worth mention.

    Dreadnought ok damage single target but takes a bit of time to build up damage buffs and pittyful range damage, playing with a cw and barb my 21k gf dreadnought just falls behind in all but single target.

    Gf Dreadnought sure takes more damage then cw the difference is that he can avoid it I have to eat it and cw 2 loadouts aoe and single target is just so much better that non would take a gf dps if they can get barb cw(still have to test with Tr so can not say how they perform yet).

    Best
  • boldac#0951
    boldac#0951 Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    Bug: After the patch yesterday I have noticed that quite a few of the descriptions for the powers are duplicates.
    The most disturbing, and I hope it is a typo, is the block for the dps paragon. It shows the same function as the tank block.
    Not sure that is intended.
  • grimah
    grimah Member Posts: 1,658 Arc User
    After playing around a bit more. I have to say the -30% damage on tank specs across all classes is hugely unnecessary and adds nothing to balance and just hurts dedicated tanks when solo. When you are dungeoning you are going to be using tank encounters anyway which now do little to no damage so why penalise these specs? By removing it, the party balance will still be the same but these players can still change encounters to quest and such.



    Creator of the featured survival horror foundry: "The Silence of Haydenwick" Video Review
    and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
  • marnival
    marnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    I am a bit confused if you can reach all caps on all stats at end game and tanks have a 30% base deduction of damage, encounters/powers/dailies that does less damage then the dps classes what does a tank beside non damage aggro ablities/feats/powers worth playing unless you pug and are forced to 3/1/1.

    Block is easy replaced by dodge/evations hp are the same, defence the same what are the reason for playing tank beside that you prefer seeing your character as a tank.

    How come Hp are the same among dps tank classes but tank has way less damage when they can have same defence due to gear/stats.

    I just can not see the logic behind how they build the basics hp/defence/damage between tank and dps.

    Same stats same hp same gear a tank by default should have a huge advantage of taking damage compared to dps light classes and I have trubble seing block close that gap compared to the enormous loss of damage vs dps classes.
    Add to this the advantage of being able to evade damage, having ranged damage beside doing more damage both aoe and single target for other classes like cw or even dc I fail to see the logic behind some of the mechanics.

    Best
  • impek#5359
    impek#5359 Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    gripnir78 said:

    manipulos said:

    gripnir78 said:

    @asterdahl I belive you missed my point a bit.

    First of all, you cant disclaim that tanks in your picture need more stats then any dps class. Sure you do not need to max all of them at once as you mentioned, but since dps classes can choose to abandon defensive stats completly its obvious that tanks are in disadvanage here as they cant trade offensive stats for defensive once completly.
    No one expect a Wizard to tank, but Paladins and Fighter are expected to do so, if on tank spec.
    That alone in natural way substract substantial amount of avilable statistic points from offensive stats pool of tanks. And you cant deny that with every new zone/mobs rating increase it will be growing disparity. And its really not important if you run BIS toon or middle or low IL one. Disparity still exist here.

    I wonder how much such demanded distribution is decreasing tanks damage output. If you want tanks to be just 30% behind pure dps I wont be suprised if that distribution alone do the trick. But you decided to grab even 30% more with adding that class mechanic.
    I am not sayin that it can be even larger gap between tanks and dps classes with damage output- it should be, but only when tanks would be rewarded with some other way. And I am sorry to say that but you offer nothing in return.

    I wont be suprised if lets say 16k IL Wizard who puts some points in defensive stats (like capping DR) would be overall more damage proof than 14k IL tank who wont cap defensive stats. If there is no some behind a scene mechanics out there, statistics distribution is only thing witch differs tanks form dpses atm.
    Shield alone is not good enaugh, especialy when all Tab mechanics are nothing more but a joke.
    Want to keep that mechanic with -30% dps reduction – fine, keep it, or even increase it, but add to that + 5% for all defensive stats and +20% more HP tanks only role bonus?
    Let us feel like tanks! As for now we are not tanks – we are just weaker dps classes here.

    Sure threat multiplayer should slove grabbing/holding aggro issue – but for now its not working - waiting for a update here.But, having hard taunt in current situation is not that bad idea –as daily maybe?
    Currently we hardly have an option to hold agrro not to mention a moments of heavy burst from dps. Yes, I do agree that it should be a tank job to be ready and retake aggro if needed – but as for now we have no toll to do that. Sure there is a skill putting you on top of agro, but its on coll down and if you are supposed to run with 3dps party, and of those guys gona be on your IL level (no to mention higher level) and competent players – good luck with that. I am aware that properly working aggro holding system should finally work as a team aggro menagement - dpses should watch not to over dops target and tanks

    And cos of issue mentioned above it will be returning problem with every new MOD incereasing enemy ratings. As dps classes would increase their dmg output while tanks would need to fill gaps in their defences first. Anything left for offensive stats would be worth -30% less so.... thats encouraging.....


    I am aware that need of creation of 3 distinguished from each other tank classes at same time is a hard task as those clases have to basicaly do the same job using 3 different methods. (I really wonder why you gave a Barbarian tank spec) If any of those will be weaker at same level players will quickly become angry and will abandon such class. And lets not forget that even if you gona create large numbers of skills and distribute those between tanks there need to be a place to use them in-game. As I said its hard job for you to do here but some global idea of tanking is necesery to be implemented first across a board before you gona do the tweaks for any class. For now I cant see that idea, and even if there is one, I can hardly see it implemented at current state of test server.

    Hey @gripnir78 I brought up the issue with tanks needing more stats than others back on page 5 I think, so you're not the only one worried about this issue. You forgot to mention the removal of Armor Class as another reason tanks will need to stack more stats to be effective. :p

    The Combined stats makes it less of an issue especially at higher item levels, and I believe I saw Sharp mention somewhere that Crit Resistance and Avoidance are mostly a non-issue in PVE, but I'm thinking newer tank players will struggle more than their dps and healer counterparts.
    Yup - actually in my guild you wont find any GF or GWF who would choose to go tank spec after MOD16 most cant see a point as every class would have same high defensive stats value. I guess OPs gona go tanking now as none of them want to be a designated healers :D

    Belive me or not I had tank spec all that time and it was usefull on many ocasion and far superion to Swordmaster vanilla lol build. But after MOD 16 if I still be around I definietly have no reason to play Vanguard. In comapre to Dreadnought - you cant fill more tanky, you just feel you are so much weaker, slower, clumsy with bunch of lol skills/feats and the most ridiculous mechanic in history of MMOs on top.
    Wanna play unrewarding class spec - go Fighter Vanguard


    In mod 16 with all the changes to the class, OP's gonna reroll for DPS a not take tanking path for sure :)
  • wilbur626
    wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,000 Arc User
    > @gripnir78 said:
    > > @fanlaar#4089 said:
    >
    > > With every class having the same defensive and offensive stats available fighter becomes pretty much a useless class in Mod 16. Paladins become the tank and there is zero benefit to playing a DPS that isn't ranged. I'm still playing while holding out hope that they scrap most of the Mod 16 changes.
    >
    >
    >
    > What does Paladin do better than Fighter atm?
    >
    > I belive he means that Paladins do not have the dps spec. So tanking is the only options for them unless they wanna heal. So while for a Fighter tank path is a joke, all of us would go Dreadnaught. That would leva all tanking for Paladins unless some Barbarians would like to tank but I never heard one of them wanting that..
    >
    > So its not about Paladin being better thank, its that no1 else would choose this path.

    I have no problems at all tanking with my Vanguard. For solo play I do ofc switch to my Dreadnaught loadout.
    What exactly makes you say tank path is a joke?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • manipulos
    manipulos Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    The 30% damage reduction for Vanguard is a hot topic. One thing I would say is I don't see a trade-off, Vanguard does not receive any extra defenses in exchange for giving up 30% damage. If everyone is getting their defensive capabilities primarily from stats will we see parties running without a tank? Unless the only reason to have a tank is to keep aggro off the healer? I like to play tank because I want to control the battle, impose my will upon the enemy and force them to do what I want them to do.

    We tried running the new dungeon last night but couldn't get far, my stats kept dropping while in combat and I would take massive damage and do very little damage. It was impossible to test anything, but I'm trying!
  • marnival
    marnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    > @gripnir78 said:

    > > @fanlaar#4089 said:

    >

    > > With every class having the same defensive and offensive stats available fighter becomes pretty much a useless class in Mod 16. Paladins become the tank and there is zero benefit to playing a DPS that isn't ranged. I'm still playing while holding out hope that they scrap most of the Mod 16 changes.

    >

    >

    >

    > What does Paladin do better than Fighter atm?

    >

    > I belive he means that Paladins do not have the dps spec. So tanking is the only options for them unless they wanna heal. So while for a Fighter tank path is a joke, all of us would go Dreadnaught. That would leva all tanking for Paladins unless some Barbarians would like to tank but I never heard one of them wanting that..

    >

    > So its not about Paladin being better thank, its that no1 else would choose this path.



    I have no problems at all tanking with my Vanguard. For solo play I do ofc switch to my Dreadnaught loadout.

    What exactly makes you say tank path is a joke?

    If you do not play other classes with maxed out stats and just run around playing Vanguard doing okish it is not a huge problem.
    However if you are used to how Gf function on live and compare playing Vanguard with other classes like barbarian wizard dc (no clue about Tr but some mention that above, and hr is if possible in a even worse state) in comparison that becomes a total other story.

    Even is something works okish the mechanics behind of how classes perform between themself is what is mostly discussed when talking about how Vanguard perform and in that aspect as mentioned above Vanguard is far behind.

    Best
This discussion has been closed.