Official M16: Fighter Feedback

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  • fenrir4life
    fenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User
    viraaal said:

    greyjay1 said:

    As a dps Fighter I find myself using Seethe very rarely.
    I would like to have a feat similar to the Soulweaver Warlock, there is a Feat that adds a CD of 15s to your TAB but grants 15 sparks instantly.

    It would be nice if one of the T2 Feats on Dreadnought would be replaced by "Your Seethe now consumes all your stamina, but generates 50% Vengeance, can only be used every 15sec"

    There's a class feature that greatly increases Seethe's conversion rate that seems to fill that niche; have you tried that yet?
    The point isnt to increase the rate of conversion, its to make it be an instant pop. The mechanic is slow and clunky and I never actually use it for these reasons, I just build my vengeance by blocking. A feat like this (replacing either one of the T2 feats ideally, as they are both about vengeance) would drastically help speed up the fluidity of the class.

    On a side note, the increased conversion feat and class feature seem to be very under powered, if even working at all, I see little to no increase with them.
    That's interesting; I found that it basically doubled the conversion rate. If you're not running both vengeance-consuming passives and are choosing to block instead of avoid some aoe's/specials, then yeah, you won't use it much. Maybe a couple seconds a minute, other than a sort of pre-seethe to start a fight with the buff active.
  • tyfud#3254
    tyfud#3254 Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    Agreed with other's echoing that "Dig In" isn't very useful in vanguard mode. Can barely hold aggro as it is, and using Dig In at that point just means we're guarenteeing that we're going to lose aggro on everything around us.

    Dig in with Dreadnought is pretty decent though.

    The animation for both needs to be improved. I find myself getting stunned/knocked down after bull rush > dig in, to an encounter. It needs to be a much quicker animation for it to be viable in more scenarios.

    Additionally, having it do AOE threat generation in vanguard would be pretty darn useful. Or increase the DR while in dig in. Just adding a 360 degree block isn't very useful. We've already learned how to block in our front 180 arc. 360, no movement, no attack isn't helpful at all.
  • daaly
    daaly Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 84 Arc User
    Dig In only use for soloing as Vanguard is to turtle up and cast a healing potion....otherwise really has no use. Vanguard dps debuff needs to be reduced considerably while solo...otherwise I'd much prefer to sick my hand next to the doorjam and slam the door shut less painful.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    wilbur626 said:

    I get stuck in Dig In and have to mash keyboard uncontrollably to get out. (I think the key is to cast at-will, then block then tab). When in this stuck state Im able to spam encounters and dailies but they have no effect.

    In addition (not a bug) : Dig In is the worst tanking mechanism I have seen in any game counting from the early 1980s

    Thanks for the feedback and the tips about how to get out of being stuck. Our programming team is still investigating what is going on with players getting stuck in this power. There is some sort of issue with a class of powers called "maintain" powers, which is causing players to sometimes get stuck in them in Module 16. (Anyone playing Warlock may have run into this problem with dread theft, it is the same issue.) We hope to have it fixed ASAP but it doesn't look like it will be in time for this week's build.

    That said, Dig In will be getting some buffs/adjustments. It will be getting more work by the way, these are just changes I could squeeze in at the last second for this week: Dig In will now make you immune to combat advantage and provide a 10% reduction to damage taken.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer


    first attack from enemy on CN disable block and as i can't block and there are 3 enemies i die in blink of an eye

    I haven't tested other dungeons but i presume they are still not fixed. I'm not top player or anything but even with my current gear i should be able to withstand quite few attacks even without blocking (tank btw) atleast on dungeons including CN and below, what i presume is one of objectives of this mod.

    There is an issue with the beginning leg of CN specifically that I don't think has been addressed yet, so I apologize for that. CN is not intended to be anywhere near that difficult.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    I'm not sure but i think something is not right with stamina regen in dig in. Take a look at this, especially around 35s. What do you think?

    https://tinytake.s3.amazonaws.com/pulse/slaver/attachments/10086710/TinyTake09-03-2019-11-41-51.mp4

    There is definitely a bug that causes stamina to shoot up when using Dig In. I fixed this issue yesterday afternoon and it should be in this week's build. I apologize, this was a new bug introduced in week 2.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer


    When used by a Vanguard, Second Wind's initial heal is smaller than the tooltip lists; with a base health of 150k, for example, it should be buffing and healing by 30k, but it's landing around 25k.
    Shield Slam (and Frontline Surge, but I hear that's getting replaced) is very unresponsibe, especially when coming out of block. Often have to try several times to use it.


    Vanguard still feels very unrewarding; aside from possible bug with Second Wind, the healing from damage done seems very small for a daily.
    Soloing is slow, and some heroic events become unwinnable due to low damage. Almost all of the Vanguard's aoe encounters are low magnitude, and very prone to whiffing due to mobs shuffling around just within the cast time. Please consider turning Linebreaker's area from a cone to a burst, and Piercing Thrust's from a cone to a cylinder the width of the base of the cone.

    Alternatively, please consider reducing the frequency and speed of mob in-combat maneuvering. Yes, it's an action game, but the speed at which mobs swarm around you makes it very hard to use certain kinds of AoE powers- it's even worse on a tank, since you are the epicenter of the maneuvering, so it often feels like the very beginning of a fight is the only time you have any hope of landing any of your directional AoEs.

    Frontline Surge is only going away for Barbarians. That being said, I will say that I am making some encounter adjustments in this week's build: shield throw will now be a base fighter ability, and piercing thrust will be going away and Dreadnought will be getting a new AoE instead.

    I do realize that this may put Vanguard in a not so great spot for AoE damage, but I promise for next week I will be focusing on making adjustments that help out with AoE. In regards to Frontline Surge, there is a bug where the targeting indicator is not displaying, so if you imagine after you click it once, you're seeing the targeting area, you always have to click it again. I hope to have this issue fixed soon, but we have not yet identified the cause of the problem.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    mcfob said:

    Companion powers--3 defensive, 1 offensive, 1utility for the fighter. Barbarian, 2 offensive, 2 defensive, 1 utility. See? Not all classes have the same types, fighters are forced to take 3 defensive even when you are trying to play dps fighter, which you would want OFFENSE heavy.

    +1
    Thanks for the report! I haven't worked on the new companions system, but I just happen to know the guy that does. I will have words with him. Words I say! (In all seriousness, I apologize for spreading misinformation, this is definitely an issue.)
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    Been giving this a chance.

    Spent all day running every permutation of Vanguard possible to make it get and hold aggro.

    It's a struggle.

    Not a challege (which is fun).

    A struggle (which is not).



    6 feat resets. Ran with almost every combination of tank powers, feated or not.

    Vanguard just isn't a good tank at present.



    @asterdahl, please consider returning Knight's Valor to it's former description (full party protection and threat generation on hits).

    KV was not overpowered. And it was not a buff.

    So the arguments for the Mod16 redesign do not apply to KV.

    Even if every other power stays as-is on preview, restoring KV could easily change Vanguard from a subpar tank to the valuable party protector you envisioned.

    I'm going to do some tanking playtests on fighter again and see what sort of adjustments need to be made. I appreciate the effort you've put in to providing feedback.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer


    As said above agro still not working as intended, I tried out SoT with one of my companions and without ET its pretty much impossible to take back agro even with daily.

    Your browser does not support the video tag.

    Thanks for the report! I'll look into this, I do know that there have been a lot of bizarre things going on with companions so it's unclear immediately whether this is a companion or a fighter threat issue, but I will definitely be looking into it.
  • dread4moor
    dread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    wilbur626 said:

    I get stuck in Dig In and have to mash keyboard uncontrollably to get out. (I think the key is to cast at-will, then block then tab). When in this stuck state Im able to spam encounters and dailies but they have no effect.

    In addition (not a bug) : Dig In is the worst tanking mechanism I have seen in any game counting from the early 1980s

    Thanks for the feedback and the tips about how to get out of being stuck. Our programming team is still investigating what is going on with players getting stuck in this power. There is some sort of issue with a class of powers called "maintain" powers, which is causing players to sometimes get stuck in them in Module 16. (Anyone playing Warlock may have run into this problem with dread theft, it is the same issue.) We hope to have it fixed ASAP but it doesn't look like it will be in time for this week's build.

    That said, Dig In will be getting some buffs/adjustments. It will be getting more work by the way, these are just changes I could squeeze in at the last second for this week: Dig In will now make you immune to combat advantage and provide a 10% reduction to damage taken.
    Asterdahl, ty for listening and responding about DigIn.
    Clearly care about your product and work hard to improve it.

    Respectfully, @asterdahl , it seems you missed the message about DigIn.
    No one wants a "sit still and be immune to combat advantage" button.
    Fighter tanks do not want to sit still at all! We need to move and get aggro.

    We are constantly strafing, positioning the mobs , changing facing, grabbing strays, moving out of overlapping reds...
    We don't need Tab-"kneel-shield". We need Tab-Hard Taunt.
    Shift is the shield and we are fine with that.

    Please consider, as has been said by myself and a dozen other players, making tab a hard aoe taunt?
    You can still call it "DigIn". Just give us what we need which is aggro.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer


    All in all, if you went live with the dreadnought exactly as it is right now, it wouldn’t be the worst thing. I especially like how heavily our class/spec with that vengeance passive, is tied to crit. Now, crit is essential to the DPS GF kit. We have an idea of what weapon enchants to buy, and what stats to prioritize.

    It’s...honestly kind of fun. I found myself feeling rewarded, finally, after hours of playing, I was enjoying myself. Took a while to figure this new stuff out, which will be a concern for people starting fresh. But, once you get into the groove, and/or someone writes a Dreadnought GF guide, I think you’ll start having more positive player engagement.

    Hey Tyfud, thanks so much for the kind words and for following up on your earlier thoughts! I am super happy to hear that you've connected with the design of the Dreadnought. So many changes at once can be super overwhelming, and with the bugs that are floating around on preview, I definitely understand the initial frustration.

    I'll be adjusting some of the feats to allow for more valid options; and deal with some of the meaningless or underperforming feats, but I won't be removing the option to focus on crit, as I also think it feels fun and gives you a straightforward direction to focus on.

    Finally, you brought up near the end of your post dungeon feedback, I appreciate it! We're definitely going to look at adjusting rewards based on the change to average times after the final adjustments are in.



  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    pyc87 said:

    asterdahl said:


    Hello! Thanks for taking the time to test out the changes on preview, and to translate your feedback! Unfortunately, I know next to no Russian, so I wouldn't be confident posting a translation of my response, I hope you can get something worthwhile out of a machine translation.

    I'm sorry to hear you're not enjoying the changes, and feel that you've lost mobility when compared to live. In terms of threat generation, I'd urge you to try out some different tactics than what you are currently used to on live. If you were playing on Preview before March 8th, there was also a bug with Enforced Threat and Anvil of Challenge that prevented those powers from placing you at the top of targets' threat list. But those issues were fixed on Friday, along with a slight increase to threat generation overall. I think fighter is in a much better position to hold and maintain threat, but I am still going to be making further adjustments ahead of launch to make sure that when used competently, fighters aren't having trouble keeping the enemy's attention. That being said, the changes are large, so it may take some time to get used to.

    In terms of pulling enemies with ranged attacks, I'm aware that this is a weakness of Vanguard right now, so I'm going to be looking at what we can do to give them an option for pulling. Finally in regards to what I assume is a rough translation of "Into the Fray" and "Commander's Strike," those were moved to the Dreadnought DPS path.

    I hope you'll continue to test the changes as more adjustments are made in the coming weeks. Hopefully as we resolve issues, you'll get a better idea of what the new Vanguard plays like, and find it just as enjoyable to play.

    Very surprised that you noticed. Thank you for your reply. Unfortunately, I don’t have any characters on the euro server, and I have to test it on a Russian server, and if you don’t know, there were no updates for us. We are looking forward to change, or at least a description (albeit in English) of all skills and abilities, for what is now, to put it mildly, is not playable.
    I apologize that we don't more fully support non-English languages and other regions with the test shard. Ultimately, as we are still dialing in these final adjustments, we don't have the turnaround time from our localization department to make the changes. Sometimes the text is going in only a day or two before it goes to preview.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    You submitted a dev blog.
    With Dig In.

    That just... that's tragic. I'm genuinely saddened by seeing that. I'm not saying absolutely no one likes Dig In, but the majority of the feedback that's mentioned it specifically has been negative, and generally not of the "I like this concept but wish it were implemented differently" variety. Please do not commit to this mechanic, it's not the right answer to the "mobs insist on spreading out as much as possible in every fight" problem. Seethe as a mechanic is fine, and doesn't need the Vanguard to have the same kind of "immobilize behind your shield" mechanic. It's too slow to be reactive to an AOE you can't get out of, and essentially self-stunning in exchange for stamina regen is a mechanic that would be fine in a turn-based game, but just feels like unplugging your keyboard in this context.

    Your enthusiasm for your work is infectious, your engagement with the testers is admirable, and I share a lot of your underlying philosophy about the accessibility of the game... but this one particular concept just needs to be put to bed.

    Give us a positioning tool, or temp HP based on our missing HP/Stamina, or an intimidation mechanic that ties into our threat throughput and/or damage taken(debuff enemies hit by your next power to generate more threat and do less damage, or just pulse for threat on ST hits, or something else rooted in the concept of intimidation), or even, and I know you don't love this idea, but Mark as a resistance debuff/threat buff, but please, please do not commit to going live with a class mechanic that basically reads "press Tab to stop playing the game for a bit"

    Hi again Fenrir! I did recently post some adjustments coming to Dig In, and I will be looking to make more, and I am hearing that some people are really not liking it right now, so a complete overhaul is not entirely off the table, even with the blog. The reality is, the blog was written weeks ago so it could be localized.

    But I am absolutely willing to change anything that went into that blog, it is not written in stone, I promise!
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    I apologize if those were brought up already. Haven't managed to read all the comments yet.

    Let me start with saying that I agree to most comments I see here and I'll acknowledge that both paragons of the fighter need some additional work. There is still a lot of time before the mod is released so I still have hope the dev team will be able to fix at lest the major issues :) Now some things I noticed and haven't seen reported (yet):

    1. Heavy Slash doesn't have an icon for it's debuff making it hard to see when it wears off and if it's active at all. The next thing I did see reported but I'll address it again cause it's major - the power have issues with hitting targets with smaller boxes. idk why but it seems impossible to hit a small target with it. This is something that needs a serious attention imo.

    2. AP gain seems clunky and inconsistent. Sometimes you get hit or attack consistently and don't gain any AP and the next moment or group you gain full AP in 2-3 sec.
    3. Various animation bugs but I won't go into details since those are not game breaking and I rather see you focus your attention on the game breaking stuff :)


    That is all I've noticed that I haven't seen reported yet. My personal thoughts on the Fighter changes and the changes as a whole are that most of them are good and long overdo but you're probably trying to do too much all at once :) Would've been nicer to see class overhaul and lvl cap increase in two separate mods but things are what they are :) Hope you guys keep the good work and spirit and try to fix at least the major issues before the mod hits live :) Dealing with so much changes and game breaking bugs on top of that will surely turn off some ppl.

    Hey Fingolfin! I appreciate the feedback. In reality, it was basically necessary for us to do the level cap and class changes at the same time, separating them would actually have been more difficult. That being said, I understand how you feel. We are aiming to get all of those seriously critical, difficulty affecting bugs squashed ASAP.

    In regards to Heavy Slash, when your Heavy Slash proc is up, you should see the text fly up over your character's head, and then your heavy slash icon should be surrounded by dancing ants to indicate that it has a proc. Those dancing ants will be changing at some point to a more finished looking effect to call out your proc.

    For powers like this, we've mostly moved to using the power border, so that we don't fill your buff bar with lots of short duration icons. (Since other players see them as well in the party pane.) Let me know if you're seeing what I'm describing and if you feel like you can get used to it!
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    viraaal said:

    As a followup to my previous post

    Commander's Strike, Earthshaker and Mow Down's damage are not affected by ability scores or Fured Kiuno of the Bear (they deal physical damage however they are not buffed by these bonuses).

    Are you willing to listen feedback / feat overhaul suggestions, similarly to private beta? I like the feats for the dreadnought paragon, however I don't like how forceful they make the character become. Example

    t1 forces an at will and an encounter OR 2 at wills being used (Heavy Slam or Heavy Slam and Piercing Thrust)
    t2 doesnt force any skills
    t3 both force another encounter (Commander's Strike or Bull Charge)
    t4 both force another encounter (Anvil of doom or Into The Frey)
    t5 forces a daily and encounter OR a daily (Mow Down and Commander's Strike or Earthshaker)

    As you can see by the feats from this, you don't really have flexibility to actually use other skills, and some skills I can never see myself using unless given a unique benefit or bonus, such as Shield Slam, Knee Breaker and Griffons Wrath.

    Shield Slam could be used if you need to overstack in aoe skills, but in a dungeon this shouldn't be an issue, and keep the single target skills on for the tankier mobs. Onslaught does less dps then Shield Slam, however its aoe range is huge, and it can hit so many mobs, which just makes it better in bigger mob groups.

    Knee Breaker does too low of dps relative to its cooldown comparing to Bull Charge with the feat and Anvil of Doom with the feat.

    Griffon's Wrath does higher dps (not damage) relative to its cooldown then Anvil when feated, however you have to hit all 3 attacks for to achieve this, and its a very VERY slow animation, and if you become stunned or knocked back you wont be able to hit the next attack/s due to the skill charge mechanic timing out. And if you spam the button, the skill goes onto cooldown without dealing the other hits, missing out on damage.

    Hi Viraaal, thanks for the feedback! Yes of course, I am going to be listening to feedback even after Module 16 goes live. I plan to do a serious pass on fighter's feats, an dI will be addressing some of the issues you have brought up. There will still be feats that affect powers, but there will be a few columns that don't deal with powers, and in general I am aiming to open up more options.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    rjc9000 said:

    viraaal said:


    Griffon's Wrath does higher dps (not damage) relative to its cooldown then Anvil when feated, however you have to hit all 3 attacks for to achieve this, and its a very VERY slow animation, and if you become stunned or knocked back you wont be able to hit the next attack/s due to the skill charge mechanic timing out. And if you spam the button, the skill goes onto cooldown without dealing the other hits, missing out on damage.

    Additional Feedback on Griffon's Wrath:

    -The 3rd hit's jumping animation is unnecessary, slow, and clunky. Just make it another backhanded swing like the Griffon's Wrath of Mod 9-14.

    If you can actually get the 3rd hit, the long animation means your target will escape/you'll get knocked over long before you can actually hit them. I get that Griffon's is supposed to be a high risk high reward type encounter, but the 3rd hit taking so long removes most of the "reward" out of the equation...


    -Can we have the charge based system back please? Or, perhaps


    Every time you guys have tried to avoid players getting a 4th hit, you've made a mess of a power that is unresponsive and awkward to use (and almost never solved getting 4 hits anyways).

    This attempt has apparently been the final solution to avoiding 4 Griffons by making it near impossible to get anything besides hit 1. Spacing your hits is rather difficult and holding down the Griffon's button (as suggested earlier in this thread) didn't auto fire the second and third hits.

    Unless Griffons is less awkward to use, I can't imagine many people giving it a slot when other encounter powers require less of a hassle and offer similar enough damage.


    Also, I've been wondering what
    asterdahl said:


    You also go on specifically to bring up the example of the feat that consumes vengeance to deal increased magnitude damage feeling too weak or as if it seriously hampers your synergy with other powers feeling like a clear example of why the changes are uninspired. I would say that tweaks to powers like that are the exact sort of thing we will be changing over the coming weeks if they do feel bad or they do feel like they really mess up the feeling of the class. I genuinely appreciate everyone's feedback on those subjects. Telling us what powers or synergies you do and do not like is incredibly helpful.

    the bolded part means?

    I get you're busy creating new powers from scratch, managing 5-7 different feedback threads, and answering every single post (don't kill yourself responding...).

    But if you got some spare time, it'd be nice to get a few specific hints as to how Vengeance consuming will be implemented in the coming preview patch(es).
    I appreciate the steady and continued feedback! I'll take a look and see what improvements we can make to Griffon's Wrath. In regards to what changes are coming to vengeance—I have nothing specific to share at this exact moment, but I will update you all when I do. What I basically meant in that paragraph was that as I re-examine feats, which I did not have a chance to build a second iteration of yet for Dreadnought—I'll be trying to focus on making sure the core rotations and vengeance interactions feel good, and don't fight with one another.

    Hopefully that answers your question, at least to the degree that's possible right now.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    Bug:
    Griffon Strike only infrequently triggers the combination attack. Used it a fair bit, and I'd say about 50% of the time I would strike once on a target, and it'd go on cooldown. No explanation or pattern I could discern. When it was back up, I'd attack another mob, and the first hit would put it on CD again. Then the next mob would get the full combo chained on it.

    Level scaling:
    There's something pretty off about level scaling in dungeons in general right now. Doing Epic Shores of Turen, the boss can 3 shot me in vanguard mode with shield up, and I've got 19k IL and 24k+ to all defensive stats even with the scaling down.

    In Undermountain? It's easy peasy. Mobs have the right amount of HP/Damage against my 24-30k defensive and offensive stats. But any dungeon I run, it's like I might as well be wearing paper armor and using a broom to attack.

    Example:


    This was the paingiver scoreboard after running with my girlfriend's OP Devo paladin and I was in my dreadnought loadout. We had the exact same companions out (earth archon), at the exact same level. She did no damage on her own, and focused entirely on healing me. The damage you see is 100% her earth archon. That also means you could subtract her damage from mine to get what damage I did without my companion.

    I have 24-35k to all offensive and defensive stats, 76k power, and 56k crit. I have all of my feats for maximizing damage on crits, and I've learned my rotation well. I didn't even out-damage my earth archon pet.

    This tells me a few things:
    1.) NPC IL/level scaling is behaving very differently from PC's, as our companions were far less impacted by the dungeon scale.
    2.) There's something very off with PC scaling in dungeons. Everything was hitting quite hard, and the Devo OP couldn't even come close to keeping up with healing me during the encounters. In addition, my damage was very, very low for the gear/stats/loadout I was set up for

    Hey Tyfud, thanks for the report! Can you also post this in the unexpected difficulty thread as well? It helps us to keep track of issues like this, we'll definitely be looking at Shores as there are already a lot of reports of issues in there, but more information in that thread is helpful, thanks so much!
  • marnival
    marnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Hi again mr non stop working @asterdahl, am starting to wish for your sake that some other write and you just consent p).

    I been running new campain both Vangard and Dreadnought and the difference is to say the least huge.

    It has been posted before but it is so imortant that I feel I need to write it here again. Vanguards feat set up combined with encounters is MORE then enough to make it do so much less damage that any base damage nerf is just destroying the dps for this path.
    .


    I have read that the basic class balance is that a tank should do about 30% less dps then the dps path/classes.
    Well i can tell you that is not the case more like 30% OF the dps classes in reality.

    I also read about testing and I will gladly let ANY Vanguard challange my Dreadnought build and try to be anywhere near 30% less dps. I also run Hr though new campain and I tested Vanguard with several Barbarians dps build and Wizard and even some Clerics and if you try to actualy play tank that is using Taunt powers AoE and block you are miles from being 70% of their dps.

    1. Remove the 30% damage reduction from Vanguard it is already built into the mechanics.
    2. Make block have at least 150% absorbtion of what it has now, it is not useful and you loose way to much hp if you are to stand and block heavy hitting mobs and several at the time is impossible as it vanish in 1-2 seconds.
    3. Reduce the downtime, or at least put a feat for it, on encounters that is purely aggro building with minimal damage
    4. Let Vanguards block protect from Red in 360 degrees so you don not get cced when you block round red areas in front of bosses.

    As it is now the lack of dps in no way compensate for the little difference in tanking between the 2 path.
    Playing Dreadnought is still somewhat clunky and slow compared to what you are used to on live but it has its rewards but playing Vanguard as some put it makes you think about doing the ironing as it is both less boring and more rewarding.

    Best

    Ps do not know if it is reported but feating bullcharge on Vanguard still knocks back and gives nothing in return.
  • marnival
    marnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    Dreadnought feated Anvil;

    BUGG: using anvil result in almost no damage same through hole maste dungeon.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Vorpal Weapon deals 3 Arcane Damage to Arachnomancer.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Anvil of Doom deals 68 Physical Damage to Arachnomancer.
    [Combat (Self)] Your Barkshield Armor absorbs 2 (1) damage from Warrior's Quick Stab.


    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Anvil of Doom deals 208 (189) Physical Damage to Skeletal Giant.
    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Vorpal Weapon deals 10 (9) Arcane Damage to Skeletal Giant.



  • manipulos
    manipulos Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    asterdahl said:


    I appreciate the steady and continued feedback! I'll take a look and see what improvements we can make to Griffon's Wrath. In regards to what changes are coming to vengeance—I have nothing specific to share at this exact moment, but I will update you all when I do. What I basically meant in that paragraph was that as I re-examine feats, which I did not have a chance to build a second iteration of yet for Dreadnought—I'll be trying to focus on making sure the core rotations and vengeance interactions feel good, and don't fight with one another.

    Hopefully that answers your question, at least to the degree that's possible right now.

    So my question regarding Vengeance (I added the bold to your quote) - why the obsession with making Fighters take hits all the time to do more damage? It make sense when tanking, but when I was testing Dreadnought I was either kneeling down trying to refill vengeance while my party ran ahead of me, or I was jumping in trying to tank instead of focusing on dps by getting combat advantage positioning etc. I slotted the class ability that let me run 25% faster after 2 seconds JUST so I could use seethe to regain vengeance and then run and catch back up to the party for the next fight, or run ahead of my party and tank some hits quick and try not to die. Or when in a longer fight I would step back and kneel down again so I could build up some more anger I guess, which is pretty silly if you think about it logically.

    The way combat advantage is working right now there's no way for a Dreadnought to reliably take hits and have a chance to gain combat advantage unless you are standing on top of the tank so you are exactly opposite of another dps in your party, because they are standing directly opposite of the tank so they can do more damage and not take hits to the face. I might as well tank at that point as I need to have all the defenses of a tank to take the hits in the first place.

  • gripnir78
    gripnir78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    OK I was waitnig with my feedback for a while - wanned give myself some time to accomodate to the new fighter. And this feedback wont be all about fighter but more about tanking itself

    @asterdahl I just want you to know that I have over 200 days played on  a GF and God knows how many months/years spent in different MMOs. Always playing a tank. Never liked healing or dpsing - always wanted to tank.  I know how weird it could sound but I developed kind of tanking philosopfhy or to be more precise a my vison of tanking and its role in any mmos. And from my observation tanking is the most important (or should be) job in any team. Sure you wont see a big damage numbers, you wont shine on dps tables and so on....but without a tank all will colapse, there would be no healing as healer is dead and no dps as dps is dad too if tank is not doing his job. Tank is the real lider of any team who puts team together, who - with his apropriate bahaviour (picking targets, carefull pulls, holding aggro, positioning of the enemy and crowd control/buff if its avilable) controls a battlefield. And he has to be resilent enaugh to be able to withstand not only anything what games throw at him but also to have time to examine a battlefield and promptly and properly react to changes. Such approach is vital to make any encounter a nice and easy job for your team. Your team m8s have to know that they are safe, protected and supported by you. Knowing that they are covenient eanugh to fully commit in healing dpsing and so on. But thats not all - on top of that a tank should be strong enaugh to finish a job in a tight situations - like few% HP left on boss with all tam dead. Sure it shouldnt be possible right form the start of a playing a game, but that is a end game vision of a tank.
    Of course it depends hardly on what given MMOs have to offer in a mechanics, classes and so on. But that above is IMO a kind of a definition of a proper tank approach.

    OK now about tanking issues MOD 16.
    First of all its really hard to talk about a class without mentioning a ability scores change. Sure we fighters are in a good spot right now but still even if you wont change abilities bonuses being class related as before you should at least give us a real roll possibility. Those templates are.......

    Now boons - ok after reading a forum I realised that all here are cheating - as they copied my boons choices! I already had 65 points so I took all real usefull options out of those boons. But there is absolutely no real options there - no to mention that there is no boons increasing tanking abilities.....

    Threat generation - OK thats gona be hard.
    @asterdahl if you still hold to the idea that grabing and keeping agro is about to be demage dependant than you can already  delete fighter tank. Yup actually you can delete Paladin and Barbarian tanks as well, as I dont type that with just a fighter class feature/machanis -30% dps in mind. 


    There is  a lot more severe issue for any tank. Puting aside ridiculous ideas about „HP tanking”
    I seen here – have you ever counted how many more statistic points tank needs to just hit a defensive caps for rating 24 000 end game mobs? A bit over 160k. Even if some1 choose to sacrifice a deflection its still over 100k of rating you need here. And if a tank would like to increase his HP/shield pool he would have to deplete avilable points even more to do so. And that dont decrease a tanks needs in their dps abilities – as those still need to be high to grab/keep agro as it is damage dependant.

    That alone puts any tank here in a real disadvanatge. Dps or healers do not need none of those defensive statistics. Sure they wont get a rid of them entirely as its not possible due to gear composition, but they can and they will put all their points elswhere. And that disparity with other classes/builds will grow higher with every new module and overall mobs ratings increase.
    Just imagine 2k increase – dps classes would have to increase just Arpen and Critchance and Accuracy – 6k in total – rest gona go in power, and a tank? Def+Defl+Critres+Awer+Arpen+Accur its a 10k if he would also add crit chance its another 2k if he wont he will be loosing critical hits and damage and agro with it. And there is no power mentioned here – so dps classes gona hit harder while tank will spare same points pool to just remain as resilent as he was and there may be no points left to increase his dps/aggro in compare to rest of the party – so he will have more and more trouble with grabbing and holding agro. While I actually like a mechanic change as a good change to the game, it really have a serious oversight mentioned above

    So that -30%damage on top of that is nothing more then tombstone for tankig Fighter. (and it is in fact a -30% agro reduction as I doubt a bonus threat exceeds that 30% lost here)

    And do not forget that if any Vanguard will want to switch to Dreadnought (or vice versa) it will require new set of gear and enchants – its gona be more expensive – lot more expensive to play such class then pure dps class

    Don wanna make it longer as another changes gona hit test server soon – in short about fighter - Dreadnaught is fine. I enjoyed playing it. Sure its damage output is not great and 3 defensive companion slots are not helping here. But its a nice path
    But Vanguard? You cant feel it has beter tanking abilities at all. Dig In is a joke – first time in my life I got a ability button to go afk in a MMO game. Never seen worse thing in any MMO. Saw tons of poor/unrewarding/or weak in comparison to pick skills – but that is beyond that. Sethe is worthless as well. Actually both paths are lot better to play, if you disable tab mechanics. (I still automaticly push tab as if was usefull lol)It those remain such useless I will need a new keyboard with at least 1 key moved underneath it to put Fighter mechanics there


  • rafaelda
    rafaelda Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 662 Arc User
    Powers that place you as top Threat need to stay active for a few sec, or we loose agroo just after using the power somtines even before we can hit again, and i tested using a pet not a player, we need this small gap the top to stay at the top, since those powers are encounters and they have long cooldown now i hope is not a problem to give us this 1 or 2 sec.s as the top threat...
  • lowjohn
    lowjohn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User
    rafaelda said:

    Powers that place you as top Threat need to stay active for a few sec, or we loose agroo just after using the power somtines even before we can hit again, and i tested using a pet not a player, we need this small gap the top to stay at the top, since those powers are encounters and they have long cooldown now i hope is not a problem to give us this 1 or 2 sec.s as the top threat...

    Pets are a little too good at doing damage atm and steal aggro a little too easily through no fault of the tank, but I agree the "put me at the top of the threat table" threat buffer could stand to be a little larger.

  • tyfud#3254
    tyfud#3254 Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    @asterdahl
    You're rocking the feedback and coding thing man. You've got to love your job to work all day fixing bugs, making adjustments, pushing commits, and then come home and night and deal with all of us :)


    Ok, on to an idea for Vanguard, and all tanks, I had while driving in to work this morning. Stay with me here, I know these things are being reworked a lot, I don't have insight into that until it's released, but this is a general idea, since I've also got someone who lives with me that mains an OP and I hear her complaints as well.

    When choosing Vanguard, Prot, or the Barb tank path, what advantages does that give you for tanking? I know what disadvantages you get. -30% to damage. Why would you go the tank spec to protect your team? Should you not be a much "tankier" tank?

    To combat the -30% dmg from the paths, and to truly give a base bonus to qualify that paragon choice as a "tank", could we consider adding a DR bonus as well? Say 15%?

    All tank paths would have a passive paragon modifier
    -30% to damage
    -15% to damage taken
    +60% aggro generated
    (or something like that, you know how the percentages work better than me)

    This would combat a lot of issues where tanks don't feel tanky, and in fact aren't any tankier than their DPS/Healing counterpart. This would address the outgoing damage hit you take being a tank. This would address some base aggro holding/generation problems that I've seen posted over and over on both the Fighter and OP boards.

    Thoughts?
  • marnival
    marnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User

    @asterdahl
    You're rocking the feedback and coding thing man. You've got to love your job to work all day fixing bugs, making adjustments, pushing commits, and then come home and night and deal with all of us :)


    Ok, on to an idea for Vanguard, and all tanks, I had while driving in to work this morning. Stay with me here, I know these things are being reworked a lot, I don't have insight into that until it's released, but this is a general idea, since I've also got someone who lives with me that mains an OP and I hear her complaints as well.

    When choosing Vanguard, Prot, or the Barb tank path, what advantages does that give you for tanking? I know what disadvantages you get. -30% to damage. Why would you go the tank spec to protect your team? Should you not be a much "tankier" tank?

    To combat the -30% dmg from the paths, and to truly give a base bonus to qualify that paragon choice as a "tank", could we consider adding a DR bonus as well? Say 15%?

    All tank paths would have a passive paragon modifier
    -30% to damage
    -15% to damage taken
    +60% aggro generated
    (or something like that, you know how the percentages work better than me)

    This would combat a lot of issues where tanks don't feel tanky, and in fact aren't any tankier than their DPS/Healing counterpart. This would address the outgoing damage hit you take being a tank. This would address some base aggro holding/generation problems that I've seen posted over and over on both the Fighter and OP boards.

    Thoughts?

    -15% damage taken like valhalla set might work 15% dr would give nothing once you get to end gear and can fill dr cap and the offensive caps.
    Add to that a better tab mechanic (dig in as it is has been voted down in a massive wave of critisism) like suggested above -using dig in forces mobs near to attack(or give a huge taunt factor) and when over and you raise up a shock wave that stuns mobs around( also pretty cool looking kneeling down drawing mobs to you and ending in an outward blast - very paladin like if seen as kneeling to pray gathering divine strenght ;-).

    A tank has to be able to control the battlefield or he is not tank imo and with that also be able to withstand the brute force of damage doing so.

    I really dont think that those that play tank because they like the role are so very conscerned with damage or paingiver stats, the consern is that you do need to get something substantial for doing less damage.

    Vanguard as it is loosing tons on the damage part and gain very little for giving it up in form of survivability and aggro control.

  • rjc9000
    rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,398 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Bug: No Heroic Feats.
    Exactly what it says: Fighter apparently has no heroic feats (none displayed, at least). I logged this back on week 1 of owlbear, but seeing as you've been busy doing a lot of work/power updates, I'm not surprised this slipped through the cracks.

    Hopefully, you'll give us a hint as to what the intended/not displayed Heroic Feats are supposed to be?
    asterdahl said:



    Frontline Surge is only going away for Barbarians. That being said, I will say that I am making some encounter adjustments in this week's build: shield throw will now be a base fighter ability, and piercing thrust will be going away and Dreadnought will be getting a new AoE instead.


    Seeing as I saw many people wanting some ranged aggro option, I honestly think more people would prefer Shield Toss as the Vanguard's Tab mechanic rather than Dig In.

    Making Shield Throw a Vanguard exclusive mechanic would fulfill the want for a ranged aggro option, not eat too many dev resources for making a new power, and possibly solve Shield Throw being kind of ridiculous on Dreadnought in PvP (probably will need adjustments to Anvil/Bull Charge/damage in general so damage is not concentrated in 3 presses, but moving Shield Throw to the weaker in DPS Vanguard should partially mitigate the PvP 3 button rotation).

    I would also modify the power to fit its status as mechanic.

    For example, I'd adjust the damage down to ~100 magnitude in addition to having a 5 second cooldown (to keep it as its status as an opener/occasional thing to toss at enemies to get aggro and not as a free spammable ranged At-will), getting rid of the stun (possibly give the option for a stun in a Vanguard exclusive feat or class feature?), and possibly reduce the animation length or even give the player a decrease to damage taken while the shield is in flight (so players don't toss their shield then die from a ranged option because they don't have their shield to protect themselves)

    Even with your buffs to Dig In, I still can't see people using Dig In for general purpose Vanguard play due to its status as a redundant Guard.

    For general purpose play, I'd take the faster startup and mobility of the basic Guard any day, as the CA Bonus immunity and decrease to damage taken don't really help you when you lose all your Stamina and are now sitting in the middle of a pack of mobs. I can barely see Dig In being useful on certain boss mechanics where you have ample time to Dig In and prepare (ex: Brink of Death or Duumvirate), but apart from that, Guard is the superior option in most circumstances.

    If you want players to utilize Dig In on Vanguard, I'd actually consider a Vanguard exclusive feat/class feature that lets you turn Guard into Dig In.
    Post edited by rjc9000 on

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