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Official M16: Stats and Mechanics

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  • seveninchbladeseveninchblade Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Rather than spamming the various class threads, I'll just put some general comments on damage/combat here.

    The current stated 20/60/20 split for at-wills/three encounters/dailies feels bad on all three of the classes I've tried so far, with Fighter being the worst offender. Encounters feel like I'm equipping Mjolnir and smashing faces, while at-wills feel like I'm offering the enemy a gentle massage after a hard day in the dungeon. I would echo @rjc9000 from the Figheter thread where he requests lower encounter damage with stronger at-wills.

    I realize that the action economy is completely different in an action MMO vs tabletop, but most encounter powers in 4e only did maybe double or triple the damage of an at-will at most. Maybe not totally comparable, but just a point of comparison.
    Charisma was my dump stat.
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User

    So here is what i was thinking

    Why not make the same for each stat how it is for Armor Pen vs Defense, even if you have 0% Armor Pen you can still inflict the 52% dmg to your enemies because they are capped at 48%, or for Accuracy and Deflect where even if i have 0% Accuracy i can stil have 50% chance for my attack not be deflected.

    Why not make a standard % for each class or role for example like this

    each DPS path will have a standard of

    18% Critical Chance

    10% Combat Advantage

    You can leave the mobs with 24.000 stats.



    So what this means is that mobs can't counter my stats under 18% Critical Chance, 10% combat Advantage, so this would mean that my critical chance won't hit 0% Crit chance or Combat Advantage won't hit 0% aswell if i can't counter the 24k Threshhold Critical Avoidance and Awarness set on the mobs..

    But istill need to stack over 9000 Critical Strike and 5000 Combat Advantage to even gain 1% to increase it. But atleast it won't kill the Crits or Combat Advantage hits, and still can stack up to 49.000 Critical Strike to cap it at at 50% and Combat advantage as much as i can...

    I don't think they are going to change the fundamental mechanics again any time soon.

    I just think everyone, the people who created it included, needs a better general understanding of how the chances are figured, and how bonuses work.

    It makes no sense, and is in fact just creating confusion by having two different metrics that mean exactly the same thing.

    Why does, for example, a ring add +2500 Crit, and a Boon or Feat or similar add +5%?
    When in fact, both those things are (we are now told) absolutely identical and add 2500 to the baseline stat..

    The system as described basically says that the stats are used in opposition to generate a % chance. And certain bonuses are added to that figured CHANCE.

    How can a +5% Bonus be added to a figured chance if that figured chance hasn't been figured yet?
    It is implicit that a bonus % is added AFTER the base chance is figured. And as has already been stated a figured percentage cannot go below ZERO.
    Therefore by implication, a Bonus can add to a zero chance in the situation where the Active stat is lower than the Passive stat, (which has generated a minus score, but we were told a minus score cannot go below zero.) Thereby providing even a slight chance in every situation. But a flat stat bonus of 500 x the equivalent % chance bonus, may very well have no impact in lifting an active stat into a position where it is higher than the passive and thereby granting a zero chance.

    I know that probably sounds complicated to some people and "Oh... it hardly matters..." but if those tiny chances don't exist we are back to characters being able to stack Passives to become immune to Crit, AoE damage, and whatever else they can reduce to zero...

    I thought the intention was the opposite of that?

    I (obviously mistakenly) thought that the 5% chance was there not just FOR the players to at least have a chance, but for the monsters to have a chance as well.


    Out of interest, @noworries#8859 , do monsters get that +5% bonus Crit (or +2500)?
    And Combat Advantage +10% (for an extra 5000 to the shown numbers)?
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    edited March 2019

    You problably missunderstood me, i don't care if 5% crit chance is 2500 Critical Strike, i care about fixing the problem of not having a scenario which RJC mentioned of not dealing a critical hit or benefiting over combat advantage, because you can't overcome the 24.000 stats of Critical Avoidance and Awarness, if there is a 50% chance to not deflect, and 52% dmg dealing, there should be a value for critical chance and combat advantage for each class, even if it's minimal or not. Think of this as reverse engineering

    Right! Got you.

    First, I absolutely believe that any open world chance in a game based on D&D MUST have at least a 1 in 20, or 5% chance of success, (Natural 20) AND at least a 1 in 20, or 5% chance, of failure (Natural 1). (OBVIOUSLY, I don't include loot tables in that rule of thumb...)

    The way it works now, i.e. matching scores = 0% chance for active skill to succeed does feel very punitive (from the attackers PoV, from the defenders it's great.)

    Normally, matched levels would offer a chance equal to the half way point between the lower and upper cap. With this it's Equal scores means the defender automatically wins. 100% of the time. The bonuses we were told are added to the figured chance DON'T, they roll back into the original equation.

    I just don't believe there should be a combat roll in this game, or any other based on Dungeons and Dragons, that is automatically guaranteed to succeed OR fail, before the "dice" are even rolled.

    As it stands, right now... to anyone apart from the devs and alpha testers, who looks at their character sheet and now knowing that the +5% bonus is added as 2500 to their Critical Strike, can anyone say for sure what their critical chance IS?
    Does the Critical Score on the character sheet already include that 2500 from the bonus 5%, or is that added secretly later.
    Because you can't see ANYWHERE in the front end of the game what your actual percentage chance of success IS, how the hell do you know?
    Because if that 2500 already shows up on your Critical STAT, I bet there are people out there expecting ANOTHER 5% to add on to what they can currently SEE.

    So, does that +5% bonus show up as 2500 on the stat before you even attempt to get into a fight where Crit is needed?
    What about the other +% chance bonuses to other chances? Do they all drop in to the Main Stat? Do some? Where can we see what does and doesn't? Particularly if those bonuses are temporary or situational?

    It's morning here...
    I'm away to feed my dogs...
    How appropriate.


    ETA:: Sorry... I got off on one there... YES I agree. Certain classes should have better Crit bases than others. This whole reboot is beginning to feel a bit like a Vanilla-fication (I know that's not a real word...) of the entire class structure, in the name of "Balance".
  • artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    What does Companion Influence Strength do?

    Like dark enchantments in utility slots for example.
  • tk1888tk1888 Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    Two observations on stats so far:

    1. Seconding the free race reroll for all classes. This new mod does away with specific Primary and Secondary Ability Scores for the classes. It also generalized the ability for each stat, so INT increases magical damage for all classes, etc. Whereas previous mods had different bonuses per stat for each class. There is an immense waste of stat points for characters generated under older rules that are coming in to this new mod.

    2. Specific to Strength/ On all of my toons, the physical damage bonus damage value is 0%.
  • theothergaliusz#7671 theothergaliusz Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    I really like the changes done in this mod. GOOD JOB. Its not perfect and it still on preview faze, please work hard!
    • Players are confused with the numberic values that should be done by missing interface to translate it to % value
    • Players are trying to point problem that could be not achieved if Items provided by each mod dont cross a tresholds - Scenario where someone have item set with 25k Crit Resist which would mean 0 crit chance in PVP for someone with only 24k crit chance. Preview is open to address those problems.
    • I feel that the counter stats create an illusion for players. In MOD17 we will get better items that have 500 Crit chance higher, but also 500 crit Resist. Our crit chance will stay in the same place. People who do not upgrade to new Gear will lose 1% crit chance fighting someone with new gear.
    • Onother scenario is players buying Eclipse enchantment - max rank give 2700 deflect. Monster have 16k rating. I have bought defense enchantment for 4-8 milions AD. 2700-16k/500 = 0%. so I have bought somethink that does not improve deflect at all. Maybe the system should be a little more complex and introduce cap that SET the starting numerical value that cant go lower than that value. if 5% base crit chance is base. Then You cant go to 0 but go to the lowest value which is 5% crit chance. If you buy Eclipse enchantment that value will be your lowest possible value.
    • I think HP will be too strong with each mod and cause unbalance in the future
    • Please give us racial retraining token :angry:
    • I also see that the changes to classes are done so you will be able to Inject new classes or paragon path(prestize classes) in the future. You will need to create less feats, powers, and also players can select 2 or 3 option. Which also make balancing more easy? but maybe for us is less fun :( and that hurt a lot of people.
    • You should change the name of the game to "Neverwinter 2", because this is no longer the game that we know. :)
    best Regards,
    Rogue player!
  • muminekm#3459 muminekm Member Posts: 248 Arc User
    It's clear just from reading basic of new system. I shouldn't even bother iwth other defensive stats and just go all in HP. If I spread too thin it would be meaningless anyway (I would need same amount as mobs to break even at 0). Same for offensive stats (with counter stats). So I either go all in one stat or just ignore it completely.
  • bluthbananabluthbanana Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    I started a new warlock and I am getting a message that I got a new power point in the "What's New" tab on every level up. But there seems to be no way to add points. So, if power points are a thing of the past that message should be removed. If they are still a thing then I am missing the tab to assign them.


    Game difficulty goes up steeply when entering the Karsov instance to retrieve the crown. It was okay, but I bought an upgrade weapon from PE marketplace ahead. The quest reward weapon gotten earlier probably is a bit too low in dps for this instance.
  • matthiasthehun76matthiasthehun76 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,183 Arc User
    Okay, excuse me, if it was written somewhere here, but i don't have the time to read through all of the Mod 16 threads.

    My question would be to a DEV, could you please post all the stat percentages, the caps, etc.

    For example currently we know, we need 100 % arm pen for end game. Now my question is what % of stats will we need in Mod 16.

    To me this is a logical question, cause it is very hard to calculate and think about what enchants to change for what, if we don't know, how much of a given stat we need.

    Thank you!
    The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
    Robert E. Lee

    I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
    Winston Churchill

    The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
    David Icke

  • onodrainonodrain Member Posts: 332 Arc User
    Based on what the Devs have posted, then Defense would be the best stat to mitigate damage.

    Your Defense minus their Armor Penetration divided by 500 is your damage mitigation. So 50k plus their Armor Penetration would be the 100% mitigation. The larger your Defense stat, the more each point does for you in damage reduction, making it an augmenting return rather than the diminishing return that Power, Crit, etc give to you.

    Deflect would also be an augmented return stat, each point giving you more in return. However, deflecting an attack usually has meant you take 50% less damage, so it is not as important in damage mitigation as defense stat.

    However, deflect means different things, as I understand it. For most classes, deflection means dodge. But for Fighters and Paladins, it means blocking an attack. This is important, since Paladins gain divinity when they block an attack, so increasing their Deflect will allow them to gain divinity more quickly and cast more spells.

    It would be nice to know what the mitigation layers are. I assume there is Defense, which is a flat damage mitigation layer. There is Block/Dodge which is the deflection layer. I expect there is are layers for abilities, too. For instance

    A Paladin has defense that is 5000 points above the monsters Armor Penetration, giving them a 10% reduction in overall damage from the monster. They have a deflection rating that is 1000 points above the monsters accuracy, giving them a 2% chance to block an attack. Blocking lets them take 50% less damage.

    The monster attacks, The Paladin hits their key and uses Divine Pallisade prior to the attack. The monsters base damage is 100. The Paladin does not make the 1% chance to block, so they take 81 damage.

    First, the 10 damage reduction from the Divine Pallisade, making it 90 damage. Then the 10% reduction from the Defense stat, making it 81 damage.

    If the Cleric was with the Paladin and cast Hallowed Ground. Then the Paladin could stand on Hallowed Ground for an additional 10% damage mitigation, on a separate layer, of 10%. Thus taking 73 damage.

    Does each class have a separate layer for stacking their buffs/debuffs? So all Paladins share the same layer, all clerics share the same layer, etc. Thus, two Paladins cannot cast Divine Pallisade for a 20% total damage reduction? It would only give 10%?

    As a Paladin or any tank, stacking HP is silly, if the above is correct. As Defense is the best stat for mitigation.

    I can understand that stats are all relative now, so posting a percentage next to each stat is moot. Perhaps on the map you can post the base stats of the mobs. Just need a number for the general mobs, a number for the larger mobs and number for the boss mobs in the zone. Or something like that as a reference.

    As a Paladin, HP are not as important anymore. Defense is much more important.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    i guess my biggest complaint is this:

    When i heard that we will have fewer Feats then before, but in exchange the remaining Feats will be really impactfull and define the way how u play your class. Well, seeing what we got... that isnt true AT ALL: U can run without skilling any of these Feats and u barely notice a difference. The Feats are WORSE then feats we had in the old System. So if you dumb down the System that much, then atleast make sure that the Feats make a difference (5% dmg increase or whatever HAMSTER we get now is not a "Huge, gameplay defining change")
    And secondly, 10 Feats is way to few, no more choice, no more differences...
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User

    It's clear just from reading basic of new system. I shouldn't even bother iwth other defensive stats and just go all in HP. If I spread too thin it would be meaningless anyway (I would need same amount as mobs to break even at 0). Same for offensive stats (with counter stats). So I either go all in one stat or just ignore it completely.

    Well, it probably makes sense to go either for CA or Crit, but not both. Of course, if you are IL 21K and have a lot of points, you can easily get a decent value for every stat, but otherwise, well...
    Hoping for improvements...
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    One big observation I'm making is that 1 point in crit strike =/= 1 point in power, or Combat Advantage, or whatever, in terms of character effectiveness.

    Well, not that they ever really were.
  • onodrainonodrain Member Posts: 332 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    i guess my biggest complaint is this:

    When i heard that we will have fewer Feats then before, but in exchange the remaining Feats will be really impactfull and define the way how u play your class. Well, seeing what we got... that isnt true AT ALL: U can run without skilling any of these Feats and u barely notice a difference. The Feats are WORSE then feats we had in the old System. So if you dumb down the System that much, then atleast make sure that the Feats make a difference (5% dmg increase or whatever HAMSTER we get now is not a "Huge, gameplay defining change")
    And secondly, 10 Feats is way to few, no more choice, no more differences...

    At this point, nobody knows if a 5% increase in something is significant. If something is 1%, then you add 5%, making it 6%, that is a huge addition to it. We are all ignorant at this point until the Developers clarify how things work and people crunch the numbers.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    onodrain said:


    tom#6998 said:

    i guess my biggest complaint is this:

    When i heard that we will have fewer Feats then before, but in exchange the remaining Feats will be really impactfull and define the way how u play your class. Well, seeing what we got... that isnt true AT ALL: U can run without skilling any of these Feats and u barely notice a difference. The Feats are WORSE then feats we had in the old System. So if you dumb down the System that much, then atleast make sure that the Feats make a difference (5% dmg increase or whatever HAMSTER we get now is not a "Huge, gameplay defining change")
    And secondly, 10 Feats is way to few, no more choice, no more differences...

    At this point, nobody knows if a 5% increase in something is significant. If something is 1%, then you add 5%, making it 6%, that is a huge addition to it. We are all ignorant at this point until the Developers clarify how things work and people crunch the numbers.
    That's bad logic. A "you heal 1% of the damage you deal" to "you heal 6% of the damage you deal" is indeed a x6 multiplier.

    But "you deal +1% damage" to "you deal +6% damage" isn't going from 1% to 6%... it's going from 101% to 106%.

    Which I'm sure you recognize is a much smaller change.
  • onodrainonodrain Member Posts: 332 Arc User

    So i do think changing the stats this way will oversimplify the changes by alot, but since there is a cap to 50% Critical Chance and another cap for 50% deflect chance, why isn't there a low cap for these stats, instead of letting them reach 0% and not feel them to be worthless on some roles.



    The cap for critical chance and deflection chance are after modification, would be my assumption. So your Critical Strike minus the enemies Critical Resist divided by 500 is capped at 50%. Same for deflection.

    Different classes and races do get modifiers to their stats. I disagree that there should be a minimum threshold. Some monsters cannot be critted. It is this way in many games. Some monsters are immune to combat advantage in many games. So this is not a new concept at all.

    This is changing the game completely. So I will need to rebalance the stats on my characters to make them effective in the new system. As I mentioned above, HP is silly to stack in the new system. HP without damage mitigation is impossible for healers to keep up with. Proper damage mitigation multiplies the effect of healing. So better damage mitigation with lower HP is a much better option for tanks.
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited March 2019


    Onother scenario is players buying Eclipse enchantment - max rank give 2700 deflect. Monster have 16k rating. I have bought defense enchantment for 4-8 milions AD. 2700-16k/500 = 0%. so I have bought somethink that does not improve deflect at all. Maybe the system should be a little more complex and introduce cap that SET the starting numerical value that cant go lower than that value. if 5% base crit chance is base. Then You cant go to 0 but go to the lowest value which is 5% crit chance. If you buy Eclipse enchantment that value will be your lowest possible value.

    As many other posters have said, situations like the one described above are a real problem for both offensive and defensive stats.

    Who cares if an item gives you even 20k of an opposed stat if your success rate is set at 0%? This further reinforces the need to stack very specific stats and completely ignore anything that you do not intend to maximize.

    The situational defensive benefit of an enchant like Eclipse is a solid example because, in the current build, players who don't maximize Deflect will get some use out of it even if Deflect itself is inherently unreliable as a defensive stat and pretty far down the list of must-haves in PvE. In the new system the Deflect stat bonus is completely useless to anyone who isn't building for maximum Deflection, and a rank 15 Eclipse gives half the bonus stamina activation duration as rank 14 did in M15.

    TL;DR:

    I agree that players should have effective minimum success rates provided that they meet certain thresholds for the relevant stats.

    Eclipse enchantment nerf is extremely sad and not necessary, at least from a PvE perspective. Will look forward to trading it in for something marginally more useful.

    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    The new rating Companion Influence strength (Dark enchantments in utility slot for exemple) doesn't do anything at all.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    artifleur said:

    The new rating Companion Influence strength (Dark enchantments in utility slot for exemple) doesn't do anything at all.

    I'm also pretty sure it ESPECIALLY doesn't do anything for augment companions.

    Why the hell did we remove move speed bonus? Moving marginally faster was a really nice QOL boost and actually incentivized me to put enchants in my utility slots :/
  • onodrainonodrain Member Posts: 332 Arc User

    What is the Combined Rating? I do not recall seeing any explanation of that.

  • codetellercodeteller Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    onodrain said:


    What is the Combined Rating? I do not recall seeing any explanation of that.

    I never saw it explained officially, but afaict combined rating adds to all ratings.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,461 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    All except power and HP. In essence everything that has counter stat. It's the counter-counter-stat, to try and prevent us to optimize on single stats and max them to the cap.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    All except power and HP. In essence everything that has counter stat. It's the counter-counter-stat, to try and prevent us to optimize on single stats and max them to the cap.

    So ... does it work on augments or is it useless?
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