Well not sure if appropriate but just my 2 cents. Can deflect and its opposing stat change to magic defence and magic penetration. This will introduce 2 type of dps that excell against appropriate type instead against all. this will put 2 type of dps needed in a dungeon run. the rework of this will make physical dmg dealer hv only high physical weapon dmg n low magic dmg and vice versa for magic dealer.
I did not read all the text. From what I understood so far. Having a class that is based on magical damage, getting a base Int of 14 at the start, and having a class that is based on physical damage starting at a base Str of 20 are calculated abilityscores? Despite looking pretty unlogic, buffing Int on my warlock does nothing actually except dealing 701 instead of 700 with an unmitigated non crit from my At Will, also calculated? And a class, being to some degree based on Crit as Warlock, is pretty much lost standing in front of a Boss with high critresistance, not building sparks as core mechanic, same as he will never have any kind of CA bonus at all ! This all doesn´t look that "calculated" to me, since some classes do favour crit as a stat to even work, same as others don´t ! If you devs implement a statoverhaul you should wisely look into changes that simply destroy classmechanics to some degree and fix them before, since there is no way back afterwards. Any comment on devs side? As far as I can tell many aspect actually doesn´t look that thought and will throw back the game for years. It took literally 4 years to even get some kind of balance into this game. Turning your back on buffs is a good aspect, by that the funcional role of a "buffer" is from minor importance, in general a good choice. As it looks to me right now the clock was reset and we head into another 4 years of finding a healthy balance, since core abilities of some classes are simply not taken into account, leading to a misfunction right at the start.
Temp HP applies before blocking, making it impossible to "save" temp HP for little, non-CCing hits when blocking big hits. Have tested on Barbarian and Fighter
(If this is intended behavior and not a bug, you can take this as feedback that this behavior makes for poor tanking QOL)
With the new Challenge Campaign I just decided moving to other zones and see how was the feeling and I noticed that we are level downgraded.
Personally I don't see the point on being downgraded on open zones because that means that the same hero that faces the horrors at the Lair of the Mad Mage it's beaten to dead by a party of Redcaps.
I would have expected that:
You go to the park and have fun when you visit old open zones (I expect them to die the same I would expect myself to die if as a level 70 I combat a level 80 enemy).
You get level downgraded when you use the lower level queues.
You are level upgraded to max level when you do event queues, instead of the actual downgrade to level 60.
Very good point nisckis. A lot of players use the solid-state old easy zones as benchmarks for skill and stat changes day to day. At the very least, its a time to kick back and breathe for awhile. If all zones will scale, then players could certainly use a much more robust target training area... like a footall field full of targets every yard, with dummies of varying stats, which we can set at an NPC.
The first 10,000 points of Anti-stats give 100% value for your investment. The first 10,000 points of Posi-stats give 0% value for your investment.
I suggested a full range of enemy stats between 0% and 200% of their current flat values so even low Posi-Stats will sometimes work. In addition, the game would benefit from a padded formula instead of PosiStat minus AntiStat. For example:
((Stat / (Stat + AntiStat)) x Stat) - (.25 x AntiStat)
The formula above gives similar potency, except that both stats keep value over a larger stat range:
50 Penetration versus 80 Defense... gives 36.7% DR (43.3% defense reduction). 100 Penetration versus 70 Defense... gives 3.8% DR (67.2% defense reduction). 10 CriticalResist versus 40 CriticalHit.. gives 29.5% critical chance (10.5% Crit reduction). 30 Deflection versus 30 Accuracy.. gives 7.5% deflection (22.5% reduction).
Was looking at my r15 runestones on my pet, and they gave 300 stats, looked at some r9's, they also gave 300 stats, not sure if that was from visiting WoD briefly or what.
Also, can anyone else confirm that for the new dungeon the critters have 32k stats? So we would need 32k arm pen and accuracy for example.
I would also like to see the maths behind the stats changed a bit so that there was some effectiveness below the current thresholds, it's kinda hard to stack (if I'm right about the new dungeon) 32k defense on my Wiz atm, so even if I have 32k defense, it's worthless, since I would still have 0% damage reduced, which is rather discouraging tbh, it's really easy for me to get hit for 160k especially by those wisps and shambling mounds.
1) Transferred a lowbie character over to test and it immediately struck me that I was not allowed to change where to put my Human +3 stat bonus.
As a Cleric, and with Wisdom seemingly irrelevant to the class doing either of it's jobs better, being stuck with my +3 in Wisdom is a double slap in the face. By the time this goes live everyone should be able to reallocate their stat bonuses at no cost.
2) As a rider, I would like to see which stats do what be given a second look. Possibly consider adding some class-specific benefits similar to what they have under the current system. For example, Wisdom might increase the damage and healing that a Cleric does, Charisma would do the same things for Warlocks, while for Paladins Charisma would provide a bonus to healing done and defense.
This system just pushes every magic-using DPSer, be they Wizard, Warlock, or Cleric to Intelligence as their prime stat, disregarding that in D&D, unless something changed in 5th edition, only the Wizard would pursue intelligence, while the Warlock would want Charisma and the Cleric would want Wisdom to better perform their jobs.
3) I still maintain that rather than a single stat array for every class there should be a choice between three arrays . Maybe someone doesn't want the current 18, 15, 13, 10, 10, 8 array being offered. Just show all of the arrays on one screen and give the player a choice. You can even push the current array as "recommended" if you want to. I just think that the players deserve more of a choice here.
List the attributes to the left, then have three columns of bubbles with the numbers in them running down with a "select" button at the bottom of each.
You guys should know which arrays were most popular among the players so start there. Pick some that offer a decent variety.
4) Monster values should have some randomization factor. Everything in the first area of Undermountain having 16K values allows players to prepare, but it's also very predictable. Everyone knows exactly how much of what they need and not a single point more. Everyone knows that if they can not reach some minimum level of some stat that they shouldn't bother and should focus on bringing a single stat to a relevant level rather than boosting multiple stats and end up with none of them worth having.
Even just a 10% variance will at least keep things interesting.
Other players have presented this idea with a lot of numbers explaining the position, so I am sure that I can't really add anything more to that, I just want to add my voice to theirs.
@asterdahl told us to come here from the Cleric Feedback thread for this problem, so I'm here:
While I don't really object to the set Ability Score arrays, it's a problem when Clerics are forced to put their 18 in a dump stat. In Mod16 as-is Wisdom is *useless* for Clerics, and it would be better to put the 8 in Wisdom and the 18 in Intelligence.
As a CW.. I feel obligated to pick INT. For secondary stats.. CON, DEX, and CHA are the most powerful. I agree that Wisdom is nearly worthless. It needs something so it can compete.
What would a really wise party memember bring? Maybe +1% awareness.
IS it just me or does it seem like armor penetration should be in STR and stamina should be in CON?
Post edited by zimxero#8085 on
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
@asterdahl told us to come here from the Cleric Feedback thread for this problem, so I'm here:
While I don't really object to the set Ability Score arrays, it's a problem when Clerics are forced to put their 18 in a dump stat. In Mod16 as-is Wisdom is *useless* for Clerics, and it would be better to put the 8 in Wisdom and the 18 in Intelligence.
NO, that just feels wrong. It is just fine that WIS is the primary stat of DCs - that is how it should be, as long as the game pretends to have any D&D connection at all. What is NOT FINE is
...that we lose the ability to roll initial stats - there was nothing wrong with the old system. The removal of stat rolling is a big step in the wrong direction and serves no good purpose whatsoever.
...that WIS does not benefit Clerics in any way
...that the benefits from the stats are in general so bad that they just don't matter...I mean 0.25%? Really ?
@asterdahl told us to come here from the Cleric Feedback thread for this problem, so I'm here:
While I don't really object to the set Ability Score arrays, it's a problem when Clerics are forced to put their 18 in a dump stat. In Mod16 as-is Wisdom is *useless* for Clerics, and it would be better to put the 8 in Wisdom and the 18 in Intelligence.
NO, that just feels wrong. It is just fine that WIS is the primary stat of DCs - that is how it should be, as long as the game pretends to have any D&D connection at all. What is NOT FINE is
...that we lose the ability to roll initial stats - there was nothing wrong with the old system. The removal of stat rolling is a big step in the wrong direction and serves no good purpose whatsoever.
...that WIS does not benefit Clerics in any way
...that the benefits from the stats are in general so bad that they just don't matter...I mean 0.25%? Really ?
add to that the notion that Paladins are all now less charismatic than a half orc lawyer, and Rogues are dumber than a post.
It feels like we no longer have; Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma any more. Now we have, "Character Combat Modifier Statistics A-F". (maybe just call them Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, and Purple for ease of producing graphs and pie charts)
Their names now worthless fossils as their capacity to provide a smooth interface with the overall implementation matrix sucks the life out of creating a character.
PLEASE... Cryptic... Look at that part of the game again. Right now, it might be "optimum" for the balance of the numbers, but it lacks the FEEL of creating a Fantasy Role Playing Character.
I mean, I can give you MANY examples of Intelligent Thieves, (let's start with The Grey Mouser...) and Charismatic Paladins (Sir Galahad.. Joan of Arc... in fact ALL of them... their capacity to inspire is part of what defines them. Imagine Henry V delivering the St Crispin's day speech with a Charisma of 8!!! We'd all be speaking FRENCH now!!!!)
PLEASE don't trivialise that part of the game for the sake of a graph somewhere matching up easier.
@asterdahl told us to come here from the Cleric Feedback thread for this problem, so I'm here:
While I don't really object to the set Ability Score arrays, it's a problem when Clerics are forced to put their 18 in a dump stat. In Mod16 as-is Wisdom is *useless* for Clerics, and it would be better to put the 8 in Wisdom and the 18 in Intelligence.
NO, that just feels wrong. It is just fine that WIS is the primary stat of DCs - that is how it should be, as long as the game pretends to have any D&D connection at all. What is NOT FINE is
...that we lose the ability to roll initial stats - there was nothing wrong with the old system. The removal of stat rolling is a big step in the wrong direction and serves no good purpose whatsoever.
...that WIS does not benefit Clerics in any way
...that the benefits from the stats are in general so bad that they just don't matter...I mean 0.25%? Really ?
I've been trying to keep an open mind about all the changes being implemented in m16, but I can't agree more with this statement. D&D is supposed to be about players making choices, be they good or bad. Mod 16 takes almost all choice from players. To hear the argument that "we all used cookie-cutter builds in m15 (and before)" as the reasoning behind giving us essentially cookie cutter builds in m16 is FLAWED. There were OPTIONS and we CHOSE the one we wanted. It wasn't the one the devs liked, so they threw it out and gave us 2 "choices" to better control what players are able to do, to make their programming easier. Now, I can understand wanting to have a measure of control over how your players are completing content, but I feel the combination of removing the choice in initial stat roles and the narrowing of paragon paths and feats is disingenuous to what D&D is supposed to be.
The explanation I heard on the stream was that this decision was removed because new players were turned off by having to make what seemed to be an important decision before ever stepping into the game. I can understand the anxiety that comes along with that. I think that was partly because there was no information on the screen for what practical benefits any stat had for any class. That information was only available once your character was in game and you moused over the stats. This is easily overcome by offering information when players are rolling their stats (what 1 point in a stat gives a class) and/or offering a free base stat reroll upon reaching max level. To remove the choice entirely? I can't agree with that at all.
@asterdahl told us to come here from the Cleric Feedback thread for this problem, so I'm here:
While I don't really object to the set Ability Score arrays, it's a problem when Clerics are forced to put their 18 in a dump stat. In Mod16 as-is Wisdom is *useless* for Clerics, and it would be better to put the 8 in Wisdom and the 18 in Intelligence.
NO, that just feels wrong. It is just fine that WIS is the primary stat of DCs - that is how it should be, as long as the game pretends to have any D&D connection at all. What is NOT FINE is
...that we lose the ability to roll initial stats - there was nothing wrong with the old system. The removal of stat rolling is a big step in the wrong direction and serves no good purpose whatsoever.
...that WIS does not benefit Clerics in any way
...that the benefits from the stats are in general so bad that they just don't matter...I mean 0.25%? Really ?
add to that the notion that Paladins are all now less charismatic than a half orc lawyer, and Rogues are dumber than a post.
It feels like we no longer have; Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma any more. Now we have, "Character Combat Modifier Statistics A-F". (maybe just call them Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, and Purple for ease of producing graphs and pie charts)
Their names now worthless fossils as their capacity to provide a smooth interface with the overall implementation matrix sucks the life out of creating a character.
PLEASE... Cryptic... Look at that part of the game again. Right now, it might be "optimum" for the balance of the numbers, but it lacks the FEEL of creating a Fantasy Role Playing Character.
I mean, I can give you MANY examples of Intelligent Thieves, (let's start with The Grey Mouser...) and Charismatic Paladins (Sir Galahad.. Joan of Arc... in fact ALL of them... their capacity to inspire is part of what defines them. Imagine Henry V delivering the St Crispin's day speech with a Charisma of 8!!! We'd all be speaking FRENCH now!!!!)
PLEASE don't trivialise that part of the game for the sake of a graph somewhere matching up easier.
It would make sense to have SOME class or paragon-specific benefits to the stats, even if they are mostly generic. You're trying for a 5e paradigm, which means that rogues still flourish with high dexterity, wizards need intelligence... but cleric spellcasting should benefit from wisdom, and paladins and warlocks should both benefit from charisma.
I think the bone of contention here is specifically the damage bonuses. In 5e, Finesse weapons allow you to get both accuracy and damage from Dexterity. If rogues are pinned to dual daggers, they should probably be getting damage from Dexterity. Rangers are more nebulous; many of them will want Dexterity for bow damage, but melee rangers should gain comparable benefit from dexterity and strength (scimitars are finesse weapons, but handaxes are not) Maybe divide nonmagical damage between "physical" and "finesse" rather than "physical" and "ranged"?
Magic damage should be tied to each class' canonical casting attribute(I also feel that Justicars should maybe have their ratio of physical to magic damage looked at to ensure they actually want enough strength to be running around in plate armor, but that's purely a personal taste thing)
Maybe it's an itemization thing? If they made it like PnP, then no one but Wizards would really care about INT items that they may have been planning to be useful for all casters... But if that's the case, I'd strongly encourage revising the items instead.
@asterdahl told us to come here from the Cleric Feedback thread for this problem, so I'm here:
While I don't really object to the set Ability Score arrays, it's a problem when Clerics are forced to put their 18 in a dump stat. In Mod16 as-is Wisdom is *useless* for Clerics, and it would be better to put the 8 in Wisdom and the 18 in Intelligence.
This! Asterdahl told us to ask you @noworries. How are clerics supposed to achieve better heals and damage? Are we supposed to have INT? How are we supposed to do that when we're stuck with an 18 wisdom?
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
@asterdahl told us to come here from the Cleric Feedback thread for this problem, so I'm here:
While I don't really object to the set Ability Score arrays, it's a problem when Clerics are forced to put their 18 in a dump stat. In Mod16 as-is Wisdom is *useless* for Clerics, and it would be better to put the 8 in Wisdom and the 18 in Intelligence.
This! Asterdahl told us to ask you @noworries. How are clerics supposed to achieve better heals and damage? Are we supposed to have INT? How are we supposed to do that when we're stuck with an 18 wisdom?
I really really REALLY don't understand the change to the new system. It's like someone had a bugaboo somewhere that "Oh hey, it makes more sense if Strength is always physical damage" or something. Maybe the idea was "Well, if Strength is always +physical damage, then any item that boosts strength is always going to boost physical damage" or something. But other than that, there is NO advantage to the new ability score system, and it astounds me that they even came up with it. I haven't heard anything from any dev team defending it either, so I'm rather hoping we can just revert to the old system.
Or, if not that, the old system but with reduced modifiers or something. It's fine if there are no god-stats or whatever, so it's fine to redistribute things a bit if need be, but the "each class has a keystat and secondary stats" thing is just a really good design, and the new system "fixes" what wasn't broken by ... breaking it.
There are a lot of issues with Mod 16's current build, but this is probably my biggest grief with it.
That and we still need to give Wizards a Fireball spell.
@asterdahl told us to come here from the Cleric Feedback thread for this problem, so I'm here:
While I don't really object to the set Ability Score arrays, it's a problem when Clerics are forced to put their 18 in a dump stat. In Mod16 as-is Wisdom is *useless* for Clerics, and it would be better to put the 8 in Wisdom and the 18 in Intelligence.
NO, that just feels wrong. It is just fine that WIS is the primary stat of DCs - that is how it should be, as long as the game pretends to have any D&D connection at all. What is NOT FINE is
...that we lose the ability to roll initial stats - there was nothing wrong with the old system. The removal of stat rolling is a big step in the wrong direction and serves no good purpose whatsoever.
...that WIS does not benefit Clerics in any way
...that the benefits from the stats are in general so bad that they just don't matter...I mean 0.25%? Really ?
I agree it feels wrong to dump Wisdom as a Cleric, but in Mod16 as-is it's the objectively right way to build one. Despite the fact that Clerics are required to stick an 18 in it, Wisdom is emphatically NOT the primary stat of a Cleric: It does absolutely nothing for them, and a Cleric with a high Wisdom is *worse at being a Cleric* than a Cleric with a low Wisdom and higher Charisma and Intelligence.
"Making Wisdom a stat a Cleric wants" is probably the best fix.
@asterdahl told us to come here from the Cleric Feedback thread for this problem, so I'm here:
While I don't really object to the set Ability Score arrays, it's a problem when Clerics are forced to put their 18 in a dump stat. In Mod16 as-is Wisdom is *useless* for Clerics, and it would be better to put the 8 in Wisdom and the 18 in Intelligence.
NO, that just feels wrong. It is just fine that WIS is the primary stat of DCs - that is how it should be, as long as the game pretends to have any D&D connection at all. What is NOT FINE is
...that we lose the ability to roll initial stats - there was nothing wrong with the old system. The removal of stat rolling is a big step in the wrong direction and serves no good purpose whatsoever.
...that WIS does not benefit Clerics in any way
...that the benefits from the stats are in general so bad that they just don't matter...I mean 0.25%? Really ?
I agree it feels wrong to dump Wisdom as a Cleric, but in Mod16 as-is it's the objectively right way to build one. Despite the fact that Clerics are required to stick an 18 in it, Wisdom is emphatically NOT the primary stat of a Cleric: It does absolutely nothing for them, and a Cleric with a high Wisdom is *worse at being a Cleric* than a Cleric with a low Wisdom and higher Charisma and Intelligence.
"Making Wisdom a stat a Cleric wants" is probably the best fix.
Same with Charisma for paladins and Warlocks(with intelligence and wisdom being basically moot, with strength and con for paladins as a tanky class and dex and con for warlocks as mobile, crunchy casters).
It'll require some recoding, but one of the stated goals of Mod16 is to be more like the modern state of D&D. Attribute allocation and function is significant in that goal.
I would like to say that the change in abilities so that the effects are the same for all classes and the accompanying lack of ability choices at character creation are just wrong. My initial choice of race for each of my 8 characters was based on the old quite reasonable class based abilities . I see no reason to completely scrap the old ability/class matrix.
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silvergryphMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 740Arc User
SUGGESTION: Each class/role gets a "Primary Stat" that gives them a bonus to Power equal to +100 Power per stat point. I chose Power because it is directly tied to the effectiveness of each role. For DPS, Power means more damage. Tanks benefit from this as well because more damage means more threat. For Healers, Power means more Hit Points healed. Since this is a stat with no cap it will always be useful to every character, and to both roles for classes with two. Here's how I would set it up, of course opinions will vary:
Barbarian: STR (Both) Cleric: WIS (Both) Fighter: CON (Vanguard) or STR (Dreadnought) Paladin: CON (Justicar) or CHA (Oathkeeper) Ranger: DEX (Hunter) or STR (Warden) Rogue: DEX (Both) Warlock: CHA (Both) Wizard: INT (Both)
Paladin's starting stats need to be changed regardless. I would suggest: Paladin: STR: 12, CON: 16, DEX: 8, INT: 8, WIS: 14, CHA: 16 (That's the Warlock array with the numbers shuffled around.)
SUGGESTION: Each class/role gets a "Primary Stat" that gives them a bonus to Power equal to +100 Power per stat point. I chose Power because it is directly tied to the effectiveness of each role. For DPS, Power means more damage. Tanks benefit from this as well because more damage means more threat. For Healers, Power means more Hit Points healed. Since this is a stat with no cap it will always be useful to every character, and to both roles for classes with two. Here's how I would set it up, of course opinions will vary:
Barbarian: STR (Both) Cleric: WIS (Both) Fighter: CON (Vanguard) or STR (Dreadnought) Paladin: CON (Justicar) or CHA (Oathkeeper) Ranger: DEX (Hunter) or STR (Warden) Rogue: DEX (Both) Warlock: CHA (Both) Wizard: INT (Both)
Paladin's starting stats need to be changed regardless. I would suggest: Paladin: STR: 12, CON: 16, DEX: 8, INT: 8, WIS: 14, CHA: 16 (That's the Warlock array with the numbers shuffled around.)
The other convenient point about Power is that there's no upper bound of effectiveness for it, unlike Crit Strike.
Going to play devil’s advocate and reiterate my position that most of the choices the devs have eliminated are gone for the better.
Rolling stats was basically a gimmick since we generally rolled until we got the desired stat distribution, anyway.
It might not kill Cryptic to allow players to allocate more discretionary points, however; that may restore a little bit of player agency and allow for minor customization without taking the newbie experience off the rails.
The issue with PRI/SEC stats by class and things like WIS being a useless stat while INT provides magic damage to all classes definitely need to be addressed.
Going to play devil’s advocate and reiterate my position that most of the choices the devs have eliminated are gone for the better.
Rolling stats was basically a gimmick since we generally rolled until we got the desired stat distribution, anyway.
It might not kill Cryptic to allow players to allocate more discretionary points, however; that may restore a little bit of player agency and allow for minor customization without taking the newbie experience off the rails.
The issue with PRI/SEC stats by class and things like WIS being a useless stat while INT provides magic damage to all classes definitely need to be addressed.
Yeah, like, the whole "roll your ability scores" thing was nonsense from the start, but what those ability scores ARE is a big frickin' deal.
I'm just trying to figure out how he thinks we're supposed to handle the given constraints. I already know noworries isn't likely to change something once he's decided.
Going to play devil’s advocate and reiterate my position that most of the choices the devs have eliminated are gone for the better.
Rolling stats was basically a gimmick since we generally rolled until we got the desired stat distribution, anyway.
It might not kill Cryptic to allow players to allocate more discretionary points, however; that may restore a little bit of player agency and allow for minor customization without taking the newbie experience off the rails.
The issue with PRI/SEC stats by class and things like WIS being a useless stat while INT provides magic damage to all classes definitely need to be addressed.
I agree that people would roll and re-roll until they got what they wanted, but that's why I am not suggesting a return to rolling for stats and just presenting a number of arrays from which we can choose instead.
Just put them all out there in front of the players. They can put giant flashing arrows saying "recommended" on-screen pointing at one array if they want to, but let the player decide which array they like best.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Can you provide some clarity with regards to why some hits are not 100% effective despite having 24000 armour penetration and accuracy? It appears like monsters go up to ~33k defensive stats in LoMM, can you shed some insight.
Can you provide some clarity with regards to why some hits are not 100% effective despite having 24000 armour penetration and accuracy? It appears like monsters go up to ~33k defensive stats in LoMM, can you shed some insight.
I saw something similar, I had to stack around 32-33k accuracy before enemies stopped deflecting my attacks, which is why I asked earlier if 32k was what their stats were at in that dungeon, which would be fine by me as long as I knew for sure.
SUGGESTION: Each class/role gets a "Primary Stat" that gives them a bonus to Power equal to +100 Power per stat point. I chose Power because it is directly tied to the effectiveness of each role. For DPS, Power means more damage. Tanks benefit from this as well because more damage means more threat. For Healers, Power means more Hit Points healed. Since this is a stat with no cap it will always be useful to every character, and to both roles for classes with two. Here's how I would set it up, of course opinions will vary:
Barbarian: STR (Both) Cleric: WIS (Both) Fighter: CON (Vanguard) or STR (Dreadnought) Paladin: CON (Justicar) or CHA (Oathkeeper) Ranger: DEX (Hunter) or STR (Warden) Rogue: DEX (Both) Warlock: CHA (Both) Wizard: INT (Both)
Paladin's starting stats need to be changed regardless. I would suggest: Paladin: STR: 12, CON: 16, DEX: 8, INT: 8, WIS: 14, CHA: 16 (That's the Warlock array with the numbers shuffled around.)
One downside of your suggestion: Paragon Paths are chosen at level 30, not at character creation. And characters will expect to swap loadouts regularly. I'm not saying it's bad to have it depend on path, just that it's awkward for the three dual-primary classes you've got.
Comments
Having a class that is based on magical damage, getting a base Int of 14 at the start, and having a class that is based on physical damage starting at a base Str of 20 are calculated abilityscores?
Despite looking pretty unlogic, buffing Int on my warlock does nothing actually except dealing 701 instead of 700 with an unmitigated non crit from my At Will, also calculated?
And a class, being to some degree based on Crit as Warlock, is pretty much lost standing in front of a Boss with high critresistance, not building sparks as core mechanic, same as he will never have any kind of CA bonus at all !
This all doesn´t look that "calculated" to me, since some classes do favour crit as a stat to even work, same as others don´t !
If you devs implement a statoverhaul you should wisely look into changes that simply destroy classmechanics to some degree and fix them before, since there is no way back afterwards. Any comment on devs side?
As far as I can tell many aspect actually doesn´t look that thought and will throw back the game for years.
It took literally 4 years to even get some kind of balance into this game. Turning your back on buffs is a good aspect, by that the funcional role of a "buffer" is from minor importance, in general a good choice.
As it looks to me right now the clock was reset and we head into another 4 years of finding a healthy balance, since core abilities of some classes are simply not taken into account, leading to a misfunction right at the start.
Temp HP applies before blocking, making it impossible to "save" temp HP for little, non-CCing hits when blocking big hits. Have tested on Barbarian and Fighter
(If this is intended behavior and not a bug, you can take this as feedback that this behavior makes for poor tanking QOL)
Personally I don't see the point on being downgraded on open zones because that means that the same hero that faces the horrors at the Lair of the Mad Mage it's beaten to dead by a party of Redcaps.
I would have expected that:
The first 10,000 points of Anti-stats give 100% value for your investment.
The first 10,000 points of Posi-stats give 0% value for your investment.
I suggested a full range of enemy stats between 0% and 200% of their current flat values so even low Posi-Stats will sometimes work. In addition, the game would benefit from a padded formula instead of PosiStat minus AntiStat. For example:
((Stat / (Stat + AntiStat)) x Stat) - (.25 x AntiStat)
The formula above gives similar potency, except that both stats keep value over a larger stat range:
50 Penetration versus 80 Defense... gives 36.7% DR (43.3% defense reduction).
100 Penetration versus 70 Defense... gives 3.8% DR (67.2% defense reduction).
10 CriticalResist versus 40 CriticalHit.. gives 29.5% critical chance (10.5% Crit reduction).
30 Deflection versus 30 Accuracy.. gives 7.5% deflection (22.5% reduction).
Also, can anyone else confirm that for the new dungeon the critters have 32k stats? So we would need 32k arm pen and accuracy for example.
I would also like to see the maths behind the stats changed a bit so that there was some effectiveness below the current thresholds, it's kinda hard to stack (if I'm right about the new dungeon) 32k defense on my Wiz atm, so even if I have 32k defense, it's worthless, since I would still have 0% damage reduced, which is rather discouraging tbh, it's really easy for me to get hit for 160k especially by those wisps and shambling mounds.
1) Transferred a lowbie character over to test and it immediately struck me that I was not allowed to change where to put my Human +3 stat bonus.
As a Cleric, and with Wisdom seemingly irrelevant to the class doing either of it's jobs better, being stuck with my +3 in Wisdom is a double slap in the face.
By the time this goes live everyone should be able to reallocate their stat bonuses at no cost.
2) As a rider, I would like to see which stats do what be given a second look. Possibly consider adding some class-specific benefits similar to what they have under the current system.
For example, Wisdom might increase the damage and healing that a Cleric does, Charisma would do the same things for Warlocks, while for Paladins Charisma would provide a bonus to healing done and defense.
This system just pushes every magic-using DPSer, be they Wizard, Warlock, or Cleric to Intelligence as their prime stat, disregarding that in D&D, unless something changed in 5th edition, only the Wizard would pursue intelligence, while the Warlock would want Charisma and the Cleric would want Wisdom to better perform their jobs.
3) I still maintain that rather than a single stat array for every class there should be a choice between three arrays
.
Maybe someone doesn't want the current 18, 15, 13, 10, 10, 8 array being offered. Just show all of the arrays on one screen and give the player a choice. You can even push the current array as "recommended" if you want to. I just think that the players deserve more of a choice here.
List the attributes to the left, then have three columns of bubbles with the numbers in them running down with a "select" button at the bottom of each.
You guys should know which arrays were most popular among the players so start there. Pick some that offer a decent variety.
4) Monster values should have some randomization factor. Everything in the first area of Undermountain having 16K values allows players to prepare, but it's also very predictable. Everyone knows exactly how much of what they need and not a single point more. Everyone knows that if they can not reach some minimum level of some stat that they shouldn't bother and should focus on bringing a single stat to a relevant level rather than boosting multiple stats and end up with none of them worth having.
Even just a 10% variance will at least keep things interesting.
Other players have presented this idea with a lot of numbers explaining the position, so I am sure that I can't really add anything more to that, I just want to add my voice to theirs.
Thank you.
While I don't really object to the set Ability Score arrays, it's a problem when Clerics are forced to put their 18 in a dump stat. In Mod16 as-is Wisdom is *useless* for Clerics, and it would be better to put the 8 in Wisdom and the 18 in Intelligence.
What would a really wise party memember bring? Maybe +1% awareness.
IS it just me or does it seem like armor penetration should be in STR and stamina should be in CON?
It feels like we no longer have;
Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma any more.
Now we have, "Character Combat Modifier Statistics A-F". (maybe just call them Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, and Purple for ease of producing graphs and pie charts)
Their names now worthless fossils as their capacity to provide a smooth interface with the overall implementation matrix sucks the life out of creating a character.
PLEASE... Cryptic...
Look at that part of the game again.
Right now, it might be "optimum" for the balance of the numbers, but it lacks the FEEL of creating a Fantasy Role Playing Character.
I mean, I can give you MANY examples of Intelligent Thieves, (let's start with The Grey Mouser...) and Charismatic Paladins (Sir Galahad.. Joan of Arc... in fact ALL of them... their capacity to inspire is part of what defines them. Imagine Henry V delivering the St Crispin's day speech with a Charisma of 8!!! We'd all be speaking FRENCH now!!!!)
PLEASE don't trivialise that part of the game for the sake of a graph somewhere matching up easier.
The explanation I heard on the stream was that this decision was removed because new players were turned off by having to make what seemed to be an important decision before ever stepping into the game. I can understand the anxiety that comes along with that. I think that was partly because there was no information on the screen for what practical benefits any stat had for any class. That information was only available once your character was in game and you moused over the stats. This is easily overcome by offering information when players are rolling their stats (what 1 point in a stat gives a class) and/or offering a free base stat reroll upon reaching max level. To remove the choice entirely? I can't agree with that at all.
I think the bone of contention here is specifically the damage bonuses. In 5e, Finesse weapons allow you to get both accuracy and damage from Dexterity. If rogues are pinned to dual daggers, they should probably be getting damage from Dexterity. Rangers are more nebulous; many of them will want Dexterity for bow damage, but melee rangers should gain comparable benefit from dexterity and strength (scimitars are finesse weapons, but handaxes are not) Maybe divide nonmagical damage between "physical" and "finesse" rather than "physical" and "ranged"?
Magic damage should be tied to each class' canonical casting attribute(I also feel that Justicars should maybe have their ratio of physical to magic damage looked at to ensure they actually want enough strength to be running around in plate armor, but that's purely a personal taste thing)
Maybe it's an itemization thing? If they made it like PnP, then no one but Wizards would really care about INT items that they may have been planning to be useful for all casters... But if that's the case, I'd strongly encourage revising the items instead.
Or, if not that, the old system but with reduced modifiers or something. It's fine if there are no god-stats or whatever, so it's fine to redistribute things a bit if need be, but the "each class has a keystat and secondary stats" thing is just a really good design, and the new system "fixes" what wasn't broken by ... breaking it.
There are a lot of issues with Mod 16's current build, but this is probably my biggest grief with it.
That and we still need to give Wizards a Fireball spell.
"Making Wisdom a stat a Cleric wants" is probably the best fix.
It'll require some recoding, but one of the stated goals of Mod16 is to be more like the modern state of D&D. Attribute allocation and function is significant in that goal.
Each class/role gets a "Primary Stat" that gives them a bonus to Power equal to +100 Power per stat point. I chose Power because it is directly tied to the effectiveness of each role. For DPS, Power means more damage. Tanks benefit from this as well because more damage means more threat. For Healers, Power means more Hit Points healed. Since this is a stat with no cap it will always be useful to every character, and to both roles for classes with two. Here's how I would set it up, of course opinions will vary:
Barbarian: STR (Both)
Cleric: WIS (Both)
Fighter: CON (Vanguard) or STR (Dreadnought)
Paladin: CON (Justicar) or CHA (Oathkeeper)
Ranger: DEX (Hunter) or STR (Warden)
Rogue: DEX (Both)
Warlock: CHA (Both)
Wizard: INT (Both)
Paladin's starting stats need to be changed regardless. I would suggest:
Paladin: STR: 12, CON: 16, DEX: 8, INT: 8, WIS: 14, CHA: 16
(That's the Warlock array with the numbers shuffled around.)
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Rolling stats was basically a gimmick since we generally rolled until we got the desired stat distribution, anyway.
It might not kill Cryptic to allow players to allocate more discretionary points, however; that may restore a little bit of player agency and allow for minor customization without taking the newbie experience off the rails.
The issue with PRI/SEC stats by class and things like WIS being a useless stat while INT provides magic damage to all classes definitely need to be addressed.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Just put them all out there in front of the players. They can put giant flashing arrows saying "recommended" on-screen pointing at one array if they want to, but let the player decide which array they like best.