adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited March 2019
I did post a simiar complaint in the Cleric feedback thread, but this is more generic and actually contains some suggestions for fixing the mess.
I consider the rework of primary ability scores (STR/DEX/etc) is completely unacceptable - a disastrous design.
All ability scores give the same bonuses now for all classes. Now, that is fine in principle, but the implementation is just too flawed - see below.
We no longer have the ability to roll our stats at the beginning. That is bad. While it is true that certain combinations of rolls were considered "best", taking away the freedom to choose stat is yet another symptom of the "dumbing down" of the game I am seeing too much of.
Basically, once you select your class, your ability scores are fixed (adjusted by racial bonuses, and extra boints that are allocated as you level up). Now those fixed stats are fairly decent for some classes, like Fighters and Wizards, but totally inappropriate for others, Clerics in particular.
To clarify, here are the stating stats for Clerics (with a half-elf racial bonus)
Now, in a D&D game those would be decent choices .. WIS being the primary stat of a Cleric, CHA secondary, and the rest depend on build, but no...not here. We automatically get most points assigned to WIS, but that stat is now totally irrelevant to Clerics, as it gives only Control Resist and Incoming Healing, which does not make the Cleric better at doing his/her job.
Getting those as default stats is simply not acceptable.
The way the bonuses are set up, a Cleric would want to put points in INT for magical damage, CON for HP and AP gain and CHA for Recharge speed - maybe a bit of DEX for Crit Severity, depending on build. From the perspective of any D&D player, this borders on a sacrilege. INT should give bonuses to Arcane magical damage, and WIS should give a bonus to Divine magical damage .
There are more issues.
There is not a single stat that benefits healers - nothing that gives a bonus to Outgoing Healing.
There are 3 kinds of damage now - Physical, Magical and Projectile, but there is no stat that gives a bonus to Projectile damage.
So, what can be done?
Here are my suggestions:
Make DEX give a bonus to Projectile damage - this will make the stat more relevant for Rangers and Rogues.
Make INT give a bonus to (arcane) Magical damage for Wizards and Warlocks, but WIS give a bonus to (divine) Magical damage for Clerics and Paladins.
Make WIS give a bonus to Outgoing Healing, perhaps instead of Incoming Healing (which I would actually put under CON)
Implementing those 3 suggestions would make the default stats acceptable to all classes. Maybe not optimal, but usable - something which is absolutely not the case now, and the typical stat distribution that players have at the moment would actually continue to be relevant.
This would also reduce the frustration and annoyance felt by players who have spent their hard-earned ADs on items like Masterwork belts that give a +2 WIS +2 CHA bonus, only to find those bonuses now irrelevant.
Why on Earth would you purposely remove the ability to roll or select starting ability scores?! That's how and where I should be choosing and customizing my damage vs. healing vs. mitigation breakdown. What if I like a little more survivability to my characters than you? Or more DPS on my cleric? Prechosen stats completely rob my ability to decide and choose that. I find it completely unacceptable that starting stats don't even have a simple point buy which pretty much every game offers.
Most rolls would be suboptimal if you play both paragons. DPS Fighter or Barbarian would need to try to roll highest STR for damage, tank (perhaps) other stats.
Now, in a D&D game those would be decent choices .. WIS being the primary stat of a Cleric, CHA secondary, and the rest depend on build, but no...not here. We automatically get most points assigned to WIS, but that stat is now totally irrelevant to Clerics, as it gives only Control Resist and Incoming Healing, which does not make the Cleric better at doing his/her job.
Getting those as default stats is simply not acceptable.
The way the bonuses are set up, a Cleric would want to put points in INT for magical damage, CON for HP and AP gain and CHA for Recharge speed - maybe a bit of DEX for Crit Severity, depending on build. From the perspective of any D&D player, this borders on a sacrilege. INT should give bonuses to Arcane magical damage, and WIS should give a bonus to Divine magical damage .
INT for spell caster is a common concept, but I agree that WIS would be the same and more logical from a D&D point of view and especially considering that WIS still seems to be considered primary stat.
There are 3 kinds of damage now - Physical, Magical and Projectile, but there is no stat that gives a bonus to Projectile damage.
Strength boosts both, physical was the original word used there to describe physical vs magical damage. But physical ended up also getting used for melee damage boosts so a new term has to be coined for that, but it is already boosting both ranged and physical
You know I tend to just roll with the flow as I tend to feel that the developers know this game much better than I do but some of these changes just make no sense. 1. Each class having a predetermined set of stats? To me this just goes against every D & D concept I ever knew. The whole purpose of rolling up a character was to make it uniquely yours. I do understand that should be limits based on some parameters such as race. But a level of randomness should exist. Not every cleric is going to be as wise as the next. 2. Generalizing what the stats do does not seem to serve any of the classes. Last I checked Wizards of the coast still used wisdom as a clerics primary stat. Primary stat being the stat that is most important to the classes primary role which does not mean he is the last to die.
I will continue to hope there is something significant not on the preview server that will make all of this make sense.
All percentage bases for crit and ca ARE countered by the counter stat. For example, with 45% crit from stats and 5% base, if an enemy has 50% crit resist you will not crit.
Now I'm confused. How can I have 45+5 or 50% Crit if my Opponent has 50% crit resist?
I thought my Crit % value was based on multiplying the difference between my Critical Strike Stat vs Their Critical Resist stat? Resulting in my percentage chance to score a crit? How can a figured Crit Resist on an opponent be 50% if my Crit strike is 50%??? For that, My Crit Stat would have to be considerably higher than my opponents Crit Resist, while at the same time being considerably lower.
I thought from what Jared explained in that initial Dev Blog that it worked like this; Active Stat - Passive Stat / 500 = Percentage chance of active stat success.
Now I have no idea how it works. How do I get a flat 45% crit to which the base 5% is added?
ETA I thought the whole point of having a "base" 5% was that there would never be a situation where it is statistically impossible to be able to score a crit. That 1 in 20 always existing just like in the old P&P version of "Rolling a natural twenty".
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
All percentage bases for crit and ca ARE countered by the counter stat. For example, with 45% crit from stats and 5% base, if an enemy has 50% crit resist you will not crit.
Now I'm confused. How can I have 45+5 or 50% Crit if my Opponent has 50% crit resist?
I thought my Crit % value was based on multiplying the difference between my Critical Strike Stat vs Their Critical Resist stat? Resulting in my percentage chance to score a crit? How can a figured Crit Resist on an opponent be 50% if my Crit strike is 50%??? For that, My Crit Stat would have to be considerably higher than my opponents Crit Resist, while at the same time being considerably lower.
I thought from what Jared explained in that initial Dev Blog that it worked like this; Active Stat - Passive Stat / 500 = Percentage chance of active stat success.
Now I have no idea how it works. How do I get a flat 45% crit to which the base 5% is added?
ETA I thought the whole point of having a "base" 5% was that there would never be a situation where it is statistically impossible to be able to score a crit. That 1 in 20 always existing just like in the old P&P version of "Rolling a natural twenty".
Every 500 points difference between your crit and their crit avoidance adds 1% critical hit chance, to a maximum of 50%, or to a minimum of 5%, is my understanding.
This, incidentally, means that defensive stats cap out at the stats of your enemy, but offensive staps cap out at +22500 enemy stat, or +45000 enemy stat for combat advantage.
EDIT: I have this backwards. Basically, to get 50% deflect you need deflect value = the attacker's accuracy + 50k. Max defense is ... well I don't know what the maximum defense in the game is. Combat advantage works how I said. Critical Resistance caps out much lower, because you can't reduce it below 5%. Hmm.
Basically "dump a lot into it" stats are: Deflection Power (no theoretical cap) HP (No theoretical cap) Critical Strike (to the value stated above) Combat Advantage (to the value stated above)
"Stop around 24k at 80t level" stats are Critical Resistance Armor Penetration Accuracy Awareness
All percentage bases for crit and ca ARE countered by the counter stat. For example, with 45% crit from stats and 5% base, if an enemy has 50% crit resist you will not crit.
Now I'm confused. How can I have 45+5 or 50% Crit if my Opponent has 50% crit resist?
I thought my Crit % value was based on multiplying the difference between my Critical Strike Stat vs Their Critical Resist stat? Resulting in my percentage chance to score a crit? How can a figured Crit Resist on an opponent be 50% if my Crit strike is 50%??? For that, My Crit Stat would have to be considerably higher than my opponents Crit Resist, while at the same time being considerably lower.
I thought from what Jared explained in that initial Dev Blog that it worked like this; Active Stat - Passive Stat / 500 = Percentage chance of active stat success.
Now I have no idea how it works. How do I get a flat 45% crit to which the base 5% is added?
ETA I thought the whole point of having a "base" 5% was that there would never be a situation where it is statistically impossible to be able to score a crit. That 1 in 20 always existing just like in the old P&P version of "Rolling a natural twenty".
Every 500 points difference between your crit and their crit avoidance adds 1% critical hit chance, to a maximum of 50%, or to a minimum of 5%, is my understanding.
This, incidentally, means that defensive stats cap out at the stats of your enemy, but offensive staps cap out at +22500 enemy stat, or +45000 enemy stat for combat advantage.
Yes. That's what I thought. But what @thefabricant says in that, is that an opponent can have a matching figured percentage, that can flat out mitigate the chance to zero. And that doesn't seem to make sense.
A Crit Resist "%" shouldn't be able to even exist. Once the Crit Avoid stat of the target nullifies the attackers Critical Strike stat to zero by virtue of being higher, the Crit chance becomes zero, and should then only apply the "base" of 5%. So that even if your Crit Strike STAT is lower than the targets Crit Avoid STAT, you will always have at least that 5% Crit CHANCE.
I think people are confusing the fixed stats with the figured percentage chances.
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
All percentage bases for crit and ca ARE countered by the counter stat. For example, with 45% crit from stats and 5% base, if an enemy has 50% crit resist you will not crit.
Now I'm confused. How can I have 45+5 or 50% Crit if my Opponent has 50% crit resist?
I thought my Crit % value was based on multiplying the difference between my Critical Strike Stat vs Their Critical Resist stat? Resulting in my percentage chance to score a crit? How can a figured Crit Resist on an opponent be 50% if my Crit strike is 50%??? For that, My Crit Stat would have to be considerably higher than my opponents Crit Resist, while at the same time being considerably lower.
I thought from what Jared explained in that initial Dev Blog that it worked like this; Active Stat - Passive Stat / 500 = Percentage chance of active stat success.
Now I have no idea how it works. How do I get a flat 45% crit to which the base 5% is added?
ETA I thought the whole point of having a "base" 5% was that there would never be a situation where it is statistically impossible to be able to score a crit. That 1 in 20 always existing just like in the old P&P version of "Rolling a natural twenty".
Every 500 points difference between your crit and their crit avoidance adds 1% critical hit chance, to a maximum of 50%, or to a minimum of 5%, is my understanding.
This, incidentally, means that defensive stats cap out at the stats of your enemy, but offensive staps cap out at +22500 enemy stat, or +45000 enemy stat for combat advantage.
Yes. That's what I thought. But what @thefabricant says in that, is that an opponent can have a matching figured percentage, that can flat out mitigate the chance to zero. And that doesn't seem to make sense.
A Crit Resist "%" shouldn't be able to even exist. Once the Crit Avoid stat of the target nullifies the attackers Critical Strike stat to zero by virtue of being higher, the Crit chance becomes zero, and should then only apply the "base" of 5%. So that even if your Crit Strike STAT is lower than the targets Crit Avoid STAT, you will always have at least that 5% Crit CHANCE.
I think people are confusing the fixed stats with the figured percentage chances.
Yeah, I edited my post because there were a few things I had backwards.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
All percentage bases for crit and ca ARE countered by the counter stat. For example, with 45% crit from stats and 5% base, if an enemy has 50% crit resist you will not crit.
Now I'm confused. How can I have 45+5 or 50% Crit if my Opponent has 50% crit resist?
I thought my Crit % value was based on multiplying the difference between my Critical Strike Stat vs Their Critical Resist stat? Resulting in my percentage chance to score a crit? How can a figured Crit Resist on an opponent be 50% if my Crit strike is 50%??? For that, My Crit Stat would have to be considerably higher than my opponents Crit Resist, while at the same time being considerably lower.
I thought from what Jared explained in that initial Dev Blog that it worked like this; Active Stat - Passive Stat / 500 = Percentage chance of active stat success.
Now I have no idea how it works. How do I get a flat 45% crit to which the base 5% is added?
ETA I thought the whole point of having a "base" 5% was that there would never be a situation where it is statistically impossible to be able to score a crit. That 1 in 20 always existing just like in the old P&P version of "Rolling a natural twenty".
Every 500 points difference between your crit and their crit avoidance adds 1% critical hit chance, to a maximum of 50%, or to a minimum of 5%, is my understanding.
This, incidentally, means that defensive stats cap out at the stats of your enemy, but offensive staps cap out at +22500 enemy stat, or +45000 enemy stat for combat advantage.
Yes. That's what I thought. But what @thefabricant says in that, is that an opponent can have a matching figured percentage, that can flat out mitigate the chance to zero. And that doesn't seem to make sense.
A Crit Resist "%" shouldn't be able to even exist. Once the Crit Avoid stat of the target nullifies the attackers Critical Strike stat to zero by virtue of being higher, the Crit chance becomes zero, and should then only apply the "base" of 5%. So that even if your Crit Strike STAT is lower than the targets Crit Avoid STAT, you will always have at least that 5% Crit CHANCE.
I think people are confusing the fixed stats with the figured percentage chances.
It does negate it to 0. In the first zone enemies have 14000 crit resistance, which translates to 28%. If you have 11500 critical strike chance, that is 23% from the stat. +5% from your base crit = 28%. The rating and the resist adds together, resulting in a crit stat of 0%. This is how it is implemented and it is in my opinion a terrible idea.
But what @thefabricant says in that, is that an opponent can have a matching figured percentage, that can flat out mitigate the chance to zero. And that doesn't seem to make sense.
The bonus to Critical Strike is the equivalent of having 2500 Critical Strike as a base. This can be fully negated by an enemy. If you have 20,000 Critical Strike and the enemy has 22,500 Critical Avoidance, your crit chance will be 0.
Where as if your enemy has 20,000 Critical Avoidance, instead of being fully cancelled out, you have a 5% chance due to the base 5% addition.
But what @thefabricant says in that, is that an opponent can have a matching figured percentage, that can flat out mitigate the chance to zero. And that doesn't seem to make sense.
The bonus to Critical Strike is the equivalent of having 2500 Critical Strike as a base. This can be fully negated by an enemy. If you have 20,000 Critical Strike and the enemy has 22,500 Critical Avoidance, your crit chance will be 0.
Where as if your enemy has 20,000 Critical Avoidance, instead of being fully cancelled out, you have a 5% chance due to the base 5% addition.
Then you need to change it to simply provide a starting base to the STAT of 2500, and not say that a figured PERCENTAGE has a "Base" because it doesn't.
I did post a simiar complaint in the Cleric feedback thread, but this is more generic and actually contains some suggestions for fixing the mess.
I consider the rework of primary ability scores (STR/DEX/etc) is completely unacceptable - a disastrous design.
All ability scores give the same bonuses now for all classes. Now, that is fine in principle, but the implementation is just too flawed - see below.
We no longer have the ability to roll our stats at the beginning. That is bad. While it is true that certain combinations of rolls were considered "best", taking away the freedom to choose stat is yet another symptom of the "dumbing down" of the game I am seeing too much of.
Basically, once you select your class, your ability scores are fixed (adjusted by racial bonuses, and extra boints that are allocated as you level up). Now those fixed stats are fairly decent for some classes, like Fighters and Wizards, but totally inappropriate for others, Clerics in particular.
To clarify, here are the stating stats for Clerics (with a half-elf racial bonus)
Now, in a D&D game those would be decent choices .. WIS being the primary stat of a Cleric, CHA secondary, and the rest depend on build, but no...not here. We automatically get most points assigned to WIS, but that stat is now totally irrelevant to Clerics, as it gives only Control Resist and Incoming Healing, which does not make the Cleric better at doing his/her job.
Getting those as default stats is simply not acceptable.
The way the bonuses are set up, a Cleric would want to put points in INT for magical damage, CON for HP and AP gain and CHA for Recharge speed - maybe a bit of DEX for Crit Severity, depending on build. From the perspective of any D&D player, this borders on a sacrilege. INT should give bonuses to Arcane magical damage, and WIS should give a bonus to Divine magical damage .
There are more issues.
There is not a single stat that benefits healers - nothing that gives a bonus to Outgoing Healing.
There are 3 kinds of damage now - Physical, Magical and Projectile, but there is no stat that gives a bonus to Projectile damage.
So, what can be done?
Here are my suggestions:
Make DEX give a bonus to Projectile damage - this will make the stat more relevant for Rangers and Rogues.
Make INT give a bonus to (arcane) Magical damage for Wizards and Warlocks, but WIS give a bonus to (divine) Magical damage for Clerics and Paladins.
Make WIS give a bonus to Outgoing Healing, perhaps instead of Incoming Healing (which I would actually put under CON)
Implementing those 3 suggestions would make the default stats acceptable to all classes. Maybe not optimal, but usable - something which is absolutely not the case now, and the typical stat distribution that players have at the moment would actually continue to be relevant.
This would also reduce the frustration and annoyance felt by players who have spent their hard-earned ADs on items like Masterwork belts that give a +2 WIS +2 CHA bonus, only to find those bonuses now irrelevant.
I agree with just about everything here.
As things stand we definitely need a complimentary Race Reroll for each character, and that doesn't solve the issue that many of us are rather attached to our characters' appearances and would prefer to maintain the aesthetic status quo as much as possible.
Some common sense fixes that include, among other things, making WIS relevant for Cleric and Paladin would be highly appreciated.
> But what @thefabricant says in that, is that an opponent can have a matching figured percentage, that can flat out mitigate the chance to zero. And that doesn't seem to make sense.
>
>
> The bonus to Critical Strike is the equivalent of having 2500 Critical Strike as a base. This can be fully negated by an enemy. If you have 20,000 Critical Strike and the enemy has 22,500 Critical Avoidance, your crit chance will be 0.
>
> Where as if your enemy has 20,000 Critical Avoidance, instead of being fully cancelled out, you have a 5% chance due to the base 5% addition.
I haven't checked the gear tbh, but i belive you guys should pay more attention into the defensive stats for TANKs, currently the lvl 80 mobs have 24.000 of each stat, this includes Armor pen, Critical Strike, Combat Advantage and Accuracy.
This means that as a TANK i have to surpass these stats by having 24k+1 of Defense, Critical Avoidance, Deflect and Awarness, i understand that i do not have to get all of them, but to nullify completly one of their Offesnive stats, i need to get 48k of the opposite roll stat. I belive this is a bit of madness thing to achieve, but like i said i do not know the stats and the level they can reach.
If you have less than 24k for the "high stat" I listed, all those points are useless.
If you have MORE than 24k for the "low stat" I listed, all those points beyond 24k are useless.
And even the high stats have a max point; I listed the effective cap for Deflect for instance. assuming, of course, that the 500/1 ratio thing we were told about holds true.
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
But what @thefabricant says in that, is that an opponent can have a matching figured percentage, that can flat out mitigate the chance to zero. And that doesn't seem to make sense.
The bonus to Critical Strike is the equivalent of having 2500 Critical Strike as a base. This can be fully negated by an enemy. If you have 20,000 Critical Strike and the enemy has 22,500 Critical Avoidance, your crit chance will be 0.
Where as if your enemy has 20,000 Critical Avoidance, instead of being fully cancelled out, you have a 5% chance due to the base 5% addition.
Oh, so you CAN overcome the base and reduce crit strike to 0? That means that one needs the additional 2500 points of Crit Avoidance.
But what @thefabricant says in that, is that an opponent can have a matching figured percentage, that can flat out mitigate the chance to zero. And that doesn't seem to make sense.
The bonus to Critical Strike is the equivalent of having 2500 Critical Strike as a base. This can be fully negated by an enemy. If you have 20,000 Critical Strike and the enemy has 22,500 Critical Avoidance, your crit chance will be 0.
Where as if your enemy has 20,000 Critical Avoidance, instead of being fully cancelled out, you have a 5% chance due to the base 5% addition.
Then you need to change it to simply provide a starting base to the STAT of 2500, and not say that a figured PERCENTAGE has a "Base" because it doesn't.
For how Neverwinter now works a statement that "Critical Strike is increased by 2500" and "Critical Chance is increased by 5%" are synonymous. If it was ever something that was going to apply outside of ratings or exceed a ratings effective cap, it would be called out specifically as doing that.
Ratings themselves don't actually do anything to your character, they get converted into the absolute percent value and that is what affects the character.
But what @thefabricant says in that, is that an opponent can have a matching figured percentage, that can flat out mitigate the chance to zero. And that doesn't seem to make sense.
The bonus to Critical Strike is the equivalent of having 2500 Critical Strike as a base. This can be fully negated by an enemy. If you have 20,000 Critical Strike and the enemy has 22,500 Critical Avoidance, your crit chance will be 0.
Where as if your enemy has 20,000 Critical Avoidance, instead of being fully cancelled out, you have a 5% chance due to the base 5% addition.
Oh, so you CAN overcome the base and reduce crit strike to 0? That means that one needs the additional 2500 points of Crit Avoidance.
Appears so, which flat out contradicts the statement in the original blog post, but hey... it's all about simplifying stuff, or something.
The five percent isn't technically a base. It's described as a "bonus 5 percent chance by default". Which it apparently isn't...
Misleading and very badly worded, but the people who are writing it understand, so why would the rest of us need to?
For how Neverwinter now works a statement that "Critical Strike is increased by 2500" and "Critical Chance is increased by 5%" are synonymous. If it was ever something that was going to apply outside of ratings or exceed a ratings effective cap, it would be called out specifically as doing that.
Ratings themselves don't actually do anything to your character, they get converted into the absolute percent value and that is what affects the character.
Hold on a minute... I just realised what you've just told us...
Are you telling us that when a Power, Feat or... anything at all says that it adds a certain PERCENTAGE to a Figured Chance it actually translates BACK into stat points before the chance is figured? Because that might be "Synonymous" to you, but it actually makes a HELL of a difference if as Jared stated, a figured Chance cannot go below ZERO. If the +XX% is wound back into stats points, that can make absolutely no difference if the opposing value is much higher. But if it the percentage chance IS figured first, and is technically a MINUS score the % chance cannot go below ZERO, thefore the +XX% should be added to that minimum chance of Zero.
You really need to be VERY clear on this! It makes a MASSIVE difference.
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
For how Neverwinter now works a statement that "Critical Strike is increased by 2500" and "Critical Chance is increased by 5%" are synonymous. If it was ever something that was going to apply outside of ratings or exceed a ratings effective cap, it would be called out specifically as doing that.
Ratings themselves don't actually do anything to your character, they get converted into the absolute percent value and that is what affects the character.
Hold on a minute... I just realised what you've just told us...
Are you telling us that when a Power, Feat or... anything at all says that it adds a certain PERCENTAGE to a Figured Chance it actually translates BACK into stat points before the chance is figured? Because that might be "Synonymous" to you, but it actually makes a HELL of a difference if as Jared stated, a figured Chance cannot go below ZERO. If the +XX% is wound back into stats points, that can make absolutely no difference if the opposing value is much higher. But if it the percentage chance IS figured first, and is technically a MINUS score the % chance cannot go below ZERO, thefore the +XX% should be added to that minimum chance of Zero.
You really need to be VERY clear on this! It makes a MASSIVE difference.
I mean, they want to be clear if they're trying to be transparent. But Neverwinter has never really been especially transparent in how things work (I'm not sure if that's intentional on the part of the devs or not though).
For how Neverwinter now works a statement that "Critical Strike is increased by 2500" and "Critical Chance is increased by 5%" are synonymous. If it was ever something that was going to apply outside of ratings or exceed a ratings effective cap, it would be called out specifically as doing that.
Ratings themselves don't actually do anything to your character, they get converted into the absolute percent value and that is what affects the character.
The point was that treating the 10% CA base and the 5% Crit chance base as "5000 CA Bonus" and "2500 Crit" in game was that it locks away fundamental mechanics if you do not stack for it.
Say we take combat advantage, which is a decent enough mechanic (now that it's not free) that could result in engaging gameplay where enemy attacks and mechanics make it a struggle to keep CA on the enemy.
Well, if my CA bonus plus the 10% base is not greater than the enemy's counter stat, I have 0 incentive to try and position for CA.
In that scenario, what's the whole point of the CA mechanic for players not specifically building for it? Window dressing for the next marketing video?
The same could be said for Crits: on level 80 enemies, I need to get at least 22501 Critical Strike just to have the chance to Critically hit, and a pretty poor one at that.
I think @thefabricant has told you this many times, but the additive system makes for an all or nothing scenario where you either go all in on a stat or just ignore it entirely. And flat out just nerfing what's "optimal" does not help all the time, especially when a common theme of the feedback seems to be that combat is slow and unsatisfying.
I think that people do not mind that the potency of the stat gets reduced by enemy counter stats, such as only have 5% Crit Chance or only getting 10% CA bonus if your stat is less than the enemy counter stat.
But flat out locking it away because you didn't play the numbers game is not fun.
For all the talk about simplifying the game, there are many counter-intuitive decisions that make the game more confusing to newer players.
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
For how Neverwinter now works a statement that "Critical Strike is increased by 2500" and "Critical Chance is increased by 5%" are synonymous. If it was ever something that was going to apply outside of ratings or exceed a ratings effective cap, it would be called out specifically as doing that.
Ratings themselves don't actually do anything to your character, they get converted into the absolute percent value and that is what affects the character.
The point was that treating the 10% CA base and the 5% Crit chance base as "5000 CA Bonus" and "2500 Crit" in game was that it locks away fundamental mechanics if you do not stack for it.
Say we take combat advantage, which is a decent enough mechanic (now that it's not free) that could result in engaging gameplay where enemy attacks and mechanics make it a struggle to keep CA on the enemy.
Well, if my CA bonus plus the 10% base is not greater than the enemy's counter stat, I have 0 incentive to try and position for CA.
In that scenario, what's the whole point of the CA mechanic for players not specifically building for it? Window dressing for the next marketing video?
The same could be said for Crits: on level 80 enemies, I need to get at least 22501 Critical Strike just to have the chance to Critically hit, and a pretty poor one at that.
I think @thefabricant has told you this many times, but the additive system makes for an all or nothing scenario where you either go all in on a stat or just ignore it entirely. And flat out just nerfing what's "optimal" does not help all the time, especially when a common theme of the feedback seems to be that combat is slow and unsatisfying.
I think that people do not mind that the potency of the stat gets reduced by enemy counter stats, such as only have 5% Crit Chance or only getting 10% CA bonus if your stat is less than the enemy counter stat.
But flat out locking it away because you didn't play the numbers game is not fun.
For all the talk about simplifying the game, there are many counter-intuitive decisions that make the game more confusing to newer players.
Ironically, the only reason this is really an issue is because of customizability of stay arrays. If you only picked gear-instead of gear and enchants-then it would be easy enough to give players just enough stats at base that they're always clearing the "this matters" point, but not at the "no more matters" point.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
For how Neverwinter now works a statement that "Critical Strike is increased by 2500" and "Critical Chance is increased by 5%" are synonymous. If it was ever something that was going to apply outside of ratings or exceed a ratings effective cap, it would be called out specifically as doing that.
Ratings themselves don't actually do anything to your character, they get converted into the absolute percent value and that is what affects the character.
Hold on a minute... I just realised what you've just told us...
Are you telling us that when a Power, Feat or... anything at all says that it adds a certain PERCENTAGE to a Figured Chance it actually translates BACK into stat points before the chance is figured? Because that might be "Synonymous" to you, but it actually makes a HELL of a difference if as Jared stated, a figured Chance cannot go below ZERO. If the +XX% is wound back into stats points, that can make absolutely no difference if the opposing value is much higher. But if it the percentage chance IS figured first, and is technically a MINUS score the % chance cannot go below ZERO, thefore the +XX% should be added to that minimum chance of Zero.
You really need to be VERY clear on this! It makes a MASSIVE difference.
The original blog post is not consistent.
If we define ratings / stats as part of the counter interactions, and percent as not. It should have said that players get 2500, 5000 stats by default. Not 5%, 10%.
I've already complained about this, and this is a major reason why people couldn't get the mechanics right (in general), not because of multiple feat choices, or paragons, or powers, but do to the lack of consistency, correct tooltips and transparency over the years.
Bottom line it is, to my understanding:
With a simple cap function (the cap is for the multiplier so divide the above by 100 more or consider it as 0 - 50% cap, I'm just to tired to paste the proper cap now ):
or in more code style:
min(max((2500 + (crit + combined) - targetAVoidance) / 50000, 0), 0.5);
All percentage bases for crit and ca ARE countered by the counter stat. For example, with 45% crit from stats and 5% base, if an enemy has 50% crit resist you will not crit.
Now I'm confused. How can I have 45+5 or 50% Crit if my Opponent has 50% crit resist?
I thought my Crit % value was based on multiplying the difference between my Critical Strike Stat vs Their Critical Resist stat? Resulting in my percentage chance to score a crit? How can a figured Crit Resist on an opponent be 50% if my Crit strike is 50%??? For that, My Crit Stat would have to be considerably higher than my opponents Crit Resist, while at the same time being considerably lower.
I thought from what Jared explained in that initial Dev Blog that it worked like this; Active Stat - Passive Stat / 500 = Percentage chance of active stat success.
Now I have no idea how it works. How do I get a flat 45% crit to which the base 5% is added?
ETA I thought the whole point of having a "base" 5% was that there would never be a situation where it is statistically impossible to be able to score a crit. That 1 in 20 always existing just like in the old P&P version of "Rolling a natural twenty".
this is why I am petitioning hard for something you can build from a stats page showing all the stats against the hardest boss. lol. you shouldn't need a spreadsheet or a calculator to figure something like this out in a game. you should be able to have a built in reference calculator that you can look at to figure out what you need to adjust and where. they've over complexified this whole thing.
imo this is the single biggest problem atm.
2
theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
You know one thing that would be interesting is if characters stats had ratings. So like, at level 70, if your Armor Penetration is low, it'd be green, and then as you approach the functional cap it'd grow to effectiveness. So once you hit mythic teal, you'd know "oh, okay, any additional points in this is excessive and won't help me out.
Then with each mod, instead of just releasing new gear, increase the level cap by 1. Each new level ups the required stats for each rank. Something like that.
I'm chatting with a guildie and we arrived at a sad conclusion. Both of us have been in this game since mod 2. With these "simplifications", what you've really accomplished is you've cut the life out of the game. All of the theorycrafting is gone. In many ways this is worse than Mod 6 -- that kicked survivability in the gut and took lots of content away, but it at least left the gameplay intact. The gameplay is the thing that this game always had going for it and now a huge chunk of it is gone. While you can claim that we can "specialize", the honest truth is that any remaining specialization is only the barest shadow of its former self. Everything now feels cookie-cutter because in fact it is. I'm not sure you could have possibly done a worse thing to the game than what you've done to powers and feats. You've reduced combat to spamming at-wills with the mouse button while waiting for encounter cooldowns to expire. As he put it, all the fluidity and grace of combat is gone and we're reduced to a mindless button-masher.
Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
For how Neverwinter now works a statement that "Critical Strike is increased by 2500" and "Critical Chance is increased by 5%" are synonymous. If it was ever something that was going to apply outside of ratings or exceed a ratings effective cap, it would be called out specifically as doing that.
Ratings themselves don't actually do anything to your character, they get converted into the absolute percent value and that is what affects the character.
Hold on a minute... I just realised what you've just told us...
Are you telling us that when a Power, Feat or... anything at all says that it adds a certain PERCENTAGE to a Figured Chance it actually translates BACK into stat points before the chance is figured? Because that might be "Synonymous" to you, but it actually makes a HELL of a difference if as Jared stated, a figured Chance cannot go below ZERO. If the +XX% is wound back into stats points, that can make absolutely no difference if the opposing value is much higher. But if it the percentage chance IS figured first, and is technically a MINUS score the % chance cannot go below ZERO, thefore the +XX% should be added to that minimum chance of Zero.
You really need to be VERY clear on this! It makes a MASSIVE difference.
The original blog post is not consistent.
If we define ratings / stats as part of the counter interactions, and percent as not. It should have said that players get 2500, 5000 stats by default. Not 5%, 10%.
I've already complained about this, and this is a major reason why people couldn't get the mechanics right (in general), not because of multiple feat choices, or paragons, or powers, but do to the lack of consistency, correct tooltips and transparency over the years.
Bottom line it is, to my understanding:
With a simple cap function (the cap is for the multiplier so divide the above by 100 more or consider it as 0 - 50% cap, I'm just to tired to paste the proper cap now ):
or in more code style:
min(max((2500 + (crit + combined) - targetAVoidance) / 50000, 0), 0.5);
PS: Jared = noworries
OK... That breaks it down better than me.
Well I have to say that misleading language being used has me concerned as to what else isn't what we're told it is.
If designers dont know the difference between applying a bonus to a base stat before an opposing set of stats are compared to gain a figured percentage chance (a chance that is rounded to zero if negative) and adding a bonus to that figured chance... well HAMSTER... isn't that system the whole fundamental baseline for the entire overhaul? And its not what they think it is?????
I don;t think anyone is deliberately trying to mislead us, but I think that they honestly believe that those two things... a bonus added before a calculation is made and rounded, and a bonus added AFTER the calculation is rounded are indeed the same things, or "Synonymous" You don't have to be a genius coder to know that's just not true.
I explained this scenario to my 14 yr old and asked her if she thought there was a difference. She gave me the "are you for real" teenager face and said one method means you might never have a chance, the other means you always have a chance but it might be a small chance.
If you add a Bonus "BY DEFAULT", it is an unimpeded bonus. It is granted because nothing that could get in its way, gets in its way or alters it.
THAT is what "by default" means.
If these +XX% to whatever CHANCE are all being figured backwards into the primary equation to determine base chance in the first instance, Cryptic need to go back and start trying to explain that from scratch. INCLUDING changes to the descriptions and such IN THE GAME, because what they all say they do right now... they DON'T.
Just stop talking about bonuses to percentage chances, and describe them PROPERLY as flat stat bonuses.
Comments
I consider the rework of primary ability scores (STR/DEX/etc) is completely unacceptable - a disastrous design.
All ability scores give the same bonuses now for all classes. Now, that is fine in principle, but the implementation is just too flawed - see below.
We no longer have the ability to roll our stats at the beginning. That is bad. While it is true that certain combinations of rolls were considered "best", taking away the freedom to choose stat is yet another symptom of the "dumbing down" of the game I am seeing too much of.
Basically, once you select your class, your ability scores are fixed (adjusted by racial bonuses, and extra boints that are allocated as you level up). Now those fixed stats are fairly decent for some classes, like Fighters and Wizards, but totally inappropriate for others, Clerics in particular.
To clarify, here are the stating stats for Clerics (with a half-elf racial bonus)
Now, in a D&D game those would be decent choices .. WIS being the primary stat of a Cleric, CHA secondary, and the rest depend on build, but no...not here. We automatically get most points assigned to WIS, but that stat is now totally irrelevant to Clerics, as it gives only Control Resist and Incoming Healing, which does not make the Cleric better at doing his/her job.
Getting those as default stats is simply not acceptable.
The way the bonuses are set up, a Cleric would want to put points in INT for magical damage, CON for HP and AP gain and CHA for Recharge speed - maybe a bit of DEX for Crit Severity, depending on build. From the perspective of any D&D player, this borders on a sacrilege. INT should give bonuses to Arcane magical damage, and WIS should give a bonus to Divine magical damage .
There are more issues.
There is not a single stat that benefits healers - nothing that gives a bonus to Outgoing Healing.
There are 3 kinds of damage now - Physical, Magical and Projectile, but there is no stat that gives a bonus to Projectile damage.
So, what can be done?
Here are my suggestions:
- Make DEX give a bonus to Projectile damage - this will make the stat more relevant for Rangers and Rogues.
- Make INT give a bonus to (arcane) Magical damage for Wizards and Warlocks, but WIS give a bonus to (divine) Magical damage for Clerics and Paladins.
- Make WIS give a bonus to Outgoing Healing, perhaps instead of Incoming Healing (which I would actually put under CON)
Implementing those 3 suggestions would make the default stats acceptable to all classes. Maybe not optimal, but usable - something which is absolutely not the case now, and the typical stat distribution that players have at the moment would actually continue to be relevant.This would also reduce the frustration and annoyance felt by players who have spent their hard-earned ADs on items like Masterwork belts that give a +2 WIS +2 CHA bonus, only to find those bonuses now irrelevant.
1. Each class having a predetermined set of stats? To me this just goes against every D & D concept I ever knew. The whole purpose of rolling up a character was to make it uniquely yours. I do understand that should be limits based on some parameters such as race. But a level of randomness should exist. Not every cleric is going to be as wise as the next.
2. Generalizing what the stats do does not seem to serve any of the classes. Last I checked Wizards of the coast still used wisdom as a clerics primary stat. Primary stat being the stat that is most important to the classes primary role which does not mean he is the last to die.
I will continue to hope there is something significant not on the preview server that will make all of this make sense.
How can I have 45+5 or 50% Crit if my Opponent has 50% crit resist?
I thought my Crit % value was based on multiplying the difference between my Critical Strike Stat vs Their Critical Resist stat?
Resulting in my percentage chance to score a crit?
How can a figured Crit Resist on an opponent be 50% if my Crit strike is 50%???
For that, My Crit Stat would have to be considerably higher than my opponents Crit Resist, while at the same time being considerably lower.
I thought from what Jared explained in that initial Dev Blog that it worked like this;
Active Stat - Passive Stat / 500 = Percentage chance of active stat success.
Now I have no idea how it works.
How do I get a flat 45% crit to which the base 5% is added?
ETA
I thought the whole point of having a "base" 5% was that there would never be a situation where it is statistically impossible to be able to score a crit. That 1 in 20 always existing just like in the old P&P version of "Rolling a natural twenty".
This, incidentally, means that defensive stats cap out at the stats of your enemy, but offensive staps cap out at +22500 enemy stat, or +45000 enemy stat for combat advantage.
EDIT: I have this backwards. Basically, to get 50% deflect you need deflect value = the attacker's accuracy + 50k. Max defense is ... well I don't know what the maximum defense in the game is. Combat advantage works how I said. Critical Resistance caps out much lower, because you can't reduce it below 5%. Hmm.
Basically "dump a lot into it" stats are:
Deflection
Power (no theoretical cap)
HP (No theoretical cap)
Critical Strike (to the value stated above)
Combat Advantage (to the value stated above)
"Stop around 24k at 80t level" stats are
Critical Resistance
Armor Penetration
Accuracy
Awareness
Unless I'm missing something here.
That's what I thought.
But what @thefabricant says in that, is that an opponent can have a matching figured percentage, that can flat out mitigate the chance to zero. And that doesn't seem to make sense.
A Crit Resist "%" shouldn't be able to even exist. Once the Crit Avoid stat of the target nullifies the attackers Critical Strike stat to zero by virtue of being higher, the Crit chance becomes zero, and should then only apply the "base" of 5%. So that even if your Crit Strike STAT is lower than the targets Crit Avoid STAT, you will always have at least that 5% Crit CHANCE.
I think people are confusing the fixed stats with the figured percentage chances.
Where as if your enemy has 20,000 Critical Avoidance, instead of being fully cancelled out, you have a 5% chance due to the base 5% addition.
As things stand we definitely need a complimentary Race Reroll for each character, and that doesn't solve the issue that many of us are rather attached to our characters' appearances and would prefer to maintain the aesthetic status quo as much as possible.
Some common sense fixes that include, among other things, making WIS relevant for Cleric and Paladin would be highly appreciated.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
If you have MORE than 24k for the "low stat" I listed, all those points beyond 24k are useless.
And even the high stats have a max point; I listed the effective cap for Deflect for instance. assuming, of course, that the 500/1 ratio thing we were told about holds true.
Ratings themselves don't actually do anything to your character, they get converted into the absolute percent value and that is what affects the character.
The five percent isn't technically a base.
It's described as a "bonus 5 percent chance by default". Which it apparently isn't...
Misleading and very badly worded, but the people who are writing it understand, so why would the rest of us need to?
I just realised what you've just told us...
Are you telling us that when a Power, Feat or... anything at all says that it adds a certain PERCENTAGE to a Figured Chance it actually translates BACK into stat points before the chance is figured?
Because that might be "Synonymous" to you, but it actually makes a HELL of a difference if as Jared stated, a figured Chance cannot go below ZERO.
If the +XX% is wound back into stats points, that can make absolutely no difference if the opposing value is much higher. But if it the percentage chance IS figured first, and is technically a MINUS score the % chance cannot go below ZERO, thefore the +XX% should be added to that minimum chance of Zero.
You really need to be VERY clear on this! It makes a MASSIVE difference.
Say we take combat advantage, which is a decent enough mechanic (now that it's not free) that could result in engaging gameplay where enemy attacks and mechanics make it a struggle to keep CA on the enemy.
Well, if my CA bonus plus the 10% base is not greater than the enemy's counter stat, I have 0 incentive to try and position for CA.
In that scenario, what's the whole point of the CA mechanic for players not specifically building for it? Window dressing for the next marketing video?
The same could be said for Crits: on level 80 enemies, I need to get at least 22501 Critical Strike just to have the chance to Critically hit, and a pretty poor one at that.
I think @thefabricant has told you this many times, but the additive system makes for an all or nothing scenario where you either go all in on a stat or just ignore it entirely. And flat out just nerfing what's "optimal" does not help all the time, especially when a common theme of the feedback seems to be that combat is slow and unsatisfying.
I think that people do not mind that the potency of the stat gets reduced by enemy counter stats, such as only have 5% Crit Chance or only getting 10% CA bonus if your stat is less than the enemy counter stat.
But flat out locking it away because you didn't play the numbers game is not fun.
For all the talk about simplifying the game, there are many counter-intuitive decisions that make the game more confusing to newer players.
If we define ratings / stats as part of the counter interactions, and percent as not.
It should have said that players get 2500, 5000 stats by default. Not 5%, 10%.
I've already complained about this, and this is a major reason why people couldn't get the mechanics right (in general), not because of multiple feat choices, or paragons, or powers, but do to the lack of consistency, correct tooltips and transparency over the years.
Bottom line it is, to my understanding:
With a simple cap function (the cap is for the multiplier so divide the above by 100 more or consider it as 0 - 50% cap, I'm just to tired to paste the proper cap now ):
or in more code style:
min(max((2500 + (crit + combined) - targetAVoidance) / 50000, 0), 0.5);PS: Jared = noworries
imo this is the single biggest problem atm.
Then with each mod, instead of just releasing new gear, increase the level cap by 1. Each new level ups the required stats for each rank. Something like that.
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
That breaks it down better than me.
Well I have to say that misleading language being used has me concerned as to what else isn't what we're told it is.
If designers dont know the difference between applying a bonus to a base stat before an opposing set of stats are compared to gain a figured percentage chance (a chance that is rounded to zero if negative) and adding a bonus to that figured chance... well HAMSTER... isn't that system the whole fundamental baseline for the entire overhaul?
And its not what they think it is?????
I don;t think anyone is deliberately trying to mislead us, but I think that they honestly believe that those two things... a bonus added before a calculation is made and rounded, and a bonus added AFTER the calculation is rounded are indeed the same things, or "Synonymous"
You don't have to be a genius coder to know that's just not true.
I explained this scenario to my 14 yr old and asked her if she thought there was a difference. She gave me the "are you for real" teenager face and said one method means you might never have a chance, the other means you always have a chance but it might be a small chance.
If you add a Bonus "BY DEFAULT", it is an unimpeded bonus. It is granted because nothing that could get in its way, gets in its way or alters it.
THAT is what "by default" means.
If these +XX% to whatever CHANCE are all being figured backwards into the primary equation to determine base chance in the first instance, Cryptic need to go back and start trying to explain that from scratch.
INCLUDING changes to the descriptions and such IN THE GAME, because what they all say they do right now... they DON'T.
Just stop talking about bonuses to percentage chances, and describe them PROPERLY as flat stat bonuses.