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M15: Devoted Cleric Class Changes

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  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited October 2018
    vorphied said:

    free2pay said:

    Make Punishing Light and Soothing Light to hit multiple targets and you will see more people using them. Don't think one can see much use of these even after the "buffs" change.

    I'm not sure anyone would (or should) use them even if they cost 0 Divinity.

    There's no point at all to channeling that junk when the time is better spent using At-Wills that actually generate Divinity. Punishing Light would have to be so good as to be broken to get any use, and Soothing Light as a healing At-Will is basically beyond salvation.

    Agree, broken like "stack one Devine Symbol per bar channeling devine power and debuff target for 40% and buff party for 30% ", since you delay or skip a lot of encounter and At wills doing so like -> BoB, BotS, PoD, dDG, Exalt, DG and the uptime of BtS is worse since "Channeling takes it´s time.
    No way to "fix" this, except giving those power a complete other direction like ... get cc-immune and shield party or freeze target by channeling, only a thought.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    It is unlikely that there will be any other changes to the classes (outside of any critical bugs that come up) before M15 release. Any additional design/balance changes would happen in M16 at this point (again outside of any issues that come up that get addressed in a patch before M16)

    It seems pretty clear to me that we will be stuck with the current version of the DC changes. I can't say I am happy.

    Some of the changes being made feel like they were done by someone with very limited experience in actually playing a DC - the "smoothing of the Divinity gain" changes really mess up optimal rotations and cannot be called anything other than a nerf.

    Now, as far as I was concerned, the DC was in a good place before - it had two viable end-game builds, the "DO buff/debuff" and the "AC power sharer". This led to many 5-man groups wanting one of each, as their powers stacked, which was seen as a problem.

    Now, as I have said before, this could have been solved with one change - making the powers not stack, for example making those currently affected by TI not get affected by AA and vice versa.

    But no. The "solution" was to basically destroy the DO paragon for group purposes. Sure, for easier content, say, up to and including CN, it really does not matter whether a group has a DO or AC, but for the end-game content, parties are just not going to want a DO- everyone will just want an AC powersharer. The DO will not be a viable alternative.

    Sure, the DO will be just fine for solo play (as it is today), so I guess that's all I will be doing for the next few months. I do have a decent AC build (not as good as my DO build, but at almost 18K IL. good enough), but I really don't like the whole power-sharer role at all.

    I think the reason is that this role does not depend much on skill or experience, but mostly just on gear - ideal for someone who just likes to pay his/her way to the top, but, well...

    Only a thought.
    What prevents you from running a group like devo-OP, tact GF, dps-DC (DO), main dps + another buffer/dps or a AC-DC and do you think this will be a far worse than any other combination of classes?
    And if rightous-DC could random-queue for a dps in mod 16 and faithfull same as virtous can only chose a healer role. What will be the most welcome dps/buff in every random-queue in mod 16 ?
  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    edited November 2018


    Terrifying Insight will become a 30% damage buff to self. It will also provide a 10% buff to party members. The target debuff will be removed.

    5 weeks had passed and devs no longer following this thread. Other classes changes are keep appearing in past few preview patch notes but not for DC, I had waited for 5 weeks for this simple change to go live on preview and also some QoL discussions to revert BotS changes and also to improve daunting light cast time but not a single dev is looking in this thread. Perhaps those devs in charge left NW again, so now the old patch notes with TI 1.0 is going into the newest patch notes and maybe used for live in future, this feedback thread is useless, why not we just closed it and dumped into lower depth. LoL.

    A feedback thread + 5 weeks without dev response. Awesome combination.... Disappointed.....
    Devs QoL =/= players QoL but what devs feel is what we will get. GGWP. Epic QoL changes....
  • meiramimeirami Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 423 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    adinosii said:

    Some of the changes being made feel like they were done by someone with very limited experience in actually playing a DC - the "smoothing of the Divinity gain" changes really mess up optimal rotations and cannot be called anything other than a nerf.

    Sadly, that is what it looks like. I think another strong example of this is:
    • Brand of the Sun: This power will no longer generate Divine Power while the player is in Divine Mode, this should fix an "issue" where players would sometimes not leave Divine Mode after casting all 3 divine encounter powers
    We have so many comments explaining why this change is harmful, but it is still getting pushed on to the live servers without even an acknowledgment.

    Since us DCs seem to get ignored when it comes to hearing feedback, it does look a bit like the person in charge now doesn't either fully understand why people use certain powers or is just biased in favor of another class. That could happen. I don't like to play all classes myself either.

    But it is also possible that the person is just busy with the mod launch and hasn't had the time to look over our feedback. In that case, it would be nice if some of these changes were adjusted or, as with Brand of the Sun, completely reverted in a later patch. I think instead of smoothing it over, these changes make DC play more sluggishly.

    Anyway, here's a hoping someone's still caring about our class, too.
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    > @meirami said:
    > Some of the changes being made feel like they were done by someone with very limited experience in actually playing a DC - the "smoothing of the Divinity gain" changes really mess up optimal rotations and cannot be called anything other than a nerf.
    >
    > Sadly, that is what it looks like. I think another strong example of this is:
    > * Brand of the Sun: This power will no longer generate Divine Power while the player is in Divine Mode, this should fix an "issue" where players would sometimes not leave Divine Mode after casting all 3 divine encounter powers
    >
    >
    > We have so many comments explaining why this change is harmful, but it is still getting pushed on to the live servers without even an acknowledgment.
    >
    > Since us DCs seem to get ignored when it comes to hearing feedback, it does look a bit like the person in charge now doesn't either fully understand why people use certain powers or is just biased in favor of another class. That could happen. I don't like to play all classes myself either.
    >
    > But it is also possible that the person is just busy with the mod launch and hasn't had the time to look over our feedback. In that case, it would be nice if some of these changes were adjusted or, as with Brand of the Sun, completely reverted in a later patch. I think instead of smoothing it over, these changes make DC play more sluggishly.
    >
    > Anyway, here's a hoping someone's still caring about our class, too.

    There’s no way that any developer plays DO DC and also considers the divinity changes to be any sort of QoL fix. You simply cannot polish that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.

    I can deal with the modest shift from party damage buff support to personal damage for DO, but that combined with the annoying and unnecessary divinity nerf is a dealbreaker that makes me unmotivated to play my DC at all. If I wanted to be an AC main, I would have already optimized as such and have no interest in doing so now.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • meiramimeirami Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 423 Arc User
    Here's something more for us DCs, in case it feels like the devs forgot about us:
    • Certain targeted ranged powers no longer affect the caster even when they're not within the targeted area.
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,950 Arc User
    jazzfong said:


    Terrifying Insight will become a 30% damage buff to self. It will also provide a 10% buff to party members. The target debuff will be removed.

    5 weeks had passed and devs no longer following this thread. Other classes changes are keep appearing in past few preview patch notes but not for DC, I had waited for 5 weeks for this simple change to go live on preview and also some QoL discussions to revert BotS changes and also to improve daunting light cast time but not a single dev is looking in this thread. Perhaps those devs in charge left NW again, so now the old patch notes with TI 1.0 is going into the newest patch notes and maybe used for live in future, this feedback thread is useless, why not we just closed it and dumped into lower depth. LoL.

    A feedback thread + 5 weeks without dev response. Awesome combination.... Disappointed.....
    Devs QoL =/= players QoL but what devs feel is what we will get. GGWP. Epic QoL changes....
    @noworries#8859
    @nitocris83
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,550 Arc User
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/13062342

    TI change made in this thread not included in m15 launch, coming Soon.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • soythesauce#5192 soythesauce Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    Well thats a R.I.P. for Do in mod 15 without the TI flat dmg buff i feel like all other Supporters will outbuff a do
  • isurk#9289 isurk Member Posts: 29 Arc User

    Well thats a R.I.P. for Do in mod 15 without the TI flat dmg buff i feel like all other Supporters will outbuff a do

    One DC (DO or AC) is always deal more buffs than a GWF/CW/SW/TR/OP/GF/HR. Is this not enough?
    P.S
    M15 meta: DC+DC+GF+GF+OP
    We all know that, right?
  • soythesauce#5192 soythesauce Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    Im an Ac main. I just feel 4 my fellows.
    A BiS Ac already outbuffs a Do as it is.

    In mod 15 if the TI rework a do would have an equal Position as 2.buff with sw or other.

    But without a do wont get in endgamish groups.

    The power kreep is real. And the ac will outrun a do realy quick.
    No 20%dmg buff is alot.
  • isurk#9289 isurk Member Posts: 29 Arc User


    In mod 15 if the TI rework a do would have an equal Position as 2.buff with sw or other.

    This 2DC meta. This must be fixed.
    If in group one DC:
    AC> all other Supporters
    DO>all other Supporters
  • isurk#9289 isurk Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    M15 changes did not make the CW/HR/SW HDPS. DC and OP is always deal more buffs than CW/HR/SW.
    GF no contest. Protect+buff+damage+speed.
    What I want you to do right now is write down five triggers... that invite to party SW/CW/HR (if buffs DO(2 DC meta, yes)> buffs SW/CW/HR).
    P.S
    The DO must be equal to the AC.
    The second DC should not be better all other supporters.
    Increase TI flat dmg buff?
    I don't think that will be a good idea.
    P.P.S
    2 DC meta would live on...
    We all know that, right?
    Post edited by isurk#9289 on
  • putzboy78putzboy78 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,950 Arc User
    the 2 DC meta hate continues when as repeatedly stated the problem is a four support meta. For all the DPSrs QQing about not getting a spot in rotations, tough luck. You will need to roll a support class. Displace DO and you will need to run templock, oppressor or pathfinder because they step in as the 4th buffer (behind AC, OP, & GF). You may be running that class, but lets be honest you don't want to be a buffer and who can blame you for actually wanting to be a DPS. Who really levels an SW hoping they can make a GWF get big numbers in a dungeon? The change as promised by noworries would put DC buffs on par with that group, not better than that group.

    Complete nerf to TI puts DO out of the rotation, and even if DO dps potential is raised, DO will not crack the DPS meta builds of GWF, GF, GWF, or SW. Couple that with the fact DO can't queue as a dps and you literally have to sacrifice running with an AC to have a DO for public queues. DO is out of business.

    I don't expect cryptic to resolve this anytime soon as we are now in the holiday season where famously nothing gets done. The developer who perhaps had the skills to implement the changes has gone and his replacement will need significantly more time to get familiar with the coding to correct it. Then it has to sit on preview for a couple of weeks. Basically DO is dead until module 16.

    I know I'm going to wish i had gotten some more of that hunt RAD to tied me over until i can get into dungeons again. Guess that was poor planning on my part.

    Want to fix the 4 support meta anytime soon? Implement diminishing returns. Something cryptic has been avoiding for 9 mods now. They have continually had to hit game mechanics with the nerf bat to slow the power creep and resolve the occasional infinite power loops that occurred because they didn't plan for synergies all because there wasn't a diminishing return that would effectively limit these mechanics from getting out of control. Diminishing returns would provide creativity in team layout (because who cares once you've hit the steep DR thresholds), provide more room for dps once buff or power thresholds are hit, and character design (at some point even gwf would find value in stacking recovery over crit/power if DR thresholds are severe).

    All of these "balances" whether its the nerf to bonding, switching to sharing base power only, removing power looks between dcs, removing power loops between OP & DC, nerfing TR power looping, implementing DR on debuffs (and somehow ignoring buff for DR), etc are all bandaid repairs. They are addressing the same design flaw that happened in module 6 because of a lack of resources available to implement DR. How much of our developer time has cryptic wasted on these bandaids, how much player rage have the had over each nerf that could have been avoided with a proper game design?
  • isurk#9289 isurk Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    lowjohn said:

    There is no "2 DC meta". There is only "4 buff 1 DPS meta", and there happens to be two really good buff DC builds. Make DO nonviable and the meta is still 4 Buff 1 DPS.

    AC best support.
    Let's be honest and say ,,We want the second cleric(DO) to be the best second support."
    Yes,
    there is no "2 DC meta".

    ;)
  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    Based on my experience, all subsequent posts starting from 5+ weeks ago will be ignored. Since everything goes into live, this whole feedback thread will be closed soon and devs will say go discuss it at pve discussion forum. No one will care about this post even it contains relevant info. TI changes is an obvious, solid proof that devs never read about this post for the second time. This entire feedback discussion had zero impact on what we will receive in Mod 15. What we get is still what we are planned to get in Mod 15. Maybe the only function of this entire 16 page thread is to let devs revert back their TI nerf by a little after a few weeks of Mod 15 launch. We still have to accept devs POV on players QoL, not sure devs inspect on which 0.001% of poor DC players who are representing 99.999% of the playerbase.

    There goes the typical NW ecocyle throughout these few years:
    1. Start a feedback thread.
    2. Check once on the first week and give some comments to show devs are reading.
    3. Ignore the thread until everything goes live.
    4. Thread closed.
    5. Dev: Please continue discussion on live forum. We have some other jobs to do so we might not read your feedback.

    Dev: Players' Feedbacks? You must be joking! We are so busy with so many things with higher priority to be done. Who cares about players' feedbacks?
  • lowjohnlowjohn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,061 Arc User
    jazzfong said:

    Based on my experience, all subsequent posts starting from 5+ weeks ago will be ignored.

    5? That's generous. the complaints about Brand Of The Sun started on the first page, and weren't addressed. While we had corrective action posted about, it looks like what went live is the same as the original post.

    So they ignored *all* the feedback, not just 5/7 weeks of it.
  • fns2005fns2005 Member Posts: 335 Arc User
    > @putzboy78 said:
    > Who really levels an SW hoping they can make a GWF get big numbers in a dungeon?

    This right here, other dps classes right now are pretty buffer companions to hold the gwf's hand.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,404 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    putzboy78 said:

    Who really levels an SW hoping they can make a GWF get big numbers in a dungeon?



    Note: not my creation. Source is from the feedback thread of the Scourge WaIlocks.

  • giz#2086 giz Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    fns2005 said:

    > @putzboy78 said:

    > Who really levels an SW hoping they can make a GWF get big numbers in a dungeon?



    This right here, other dps classes right now are pretty buffer companions to hold the gwf's hand.

    My first toon was a GWF, was a boring class imo, so i made a SW because i wanted a DPS character, SW was a HDPS class (broken or not, tell me a HDPS class now without broken mechanics) Indeed, now all dps classes are only support to a main dps class....Yes GWF or GF. And even when some people gets salty with this kind of comments, we're a lot of players that feels that the only viable dps class in this game is GWF...and infinite Griffon's Wrath spammer class. Devs can't hear us, they want it this way, they made the 4 support 1 dps META.
  • wackywalnutwackywalnut Member Posts: 1 New User
    So holy fervor in the previous mod would give the 20% onto the ap gain in your stats . It no longer shows. My standing ap went from 105 to 85 . several other clerics confirmed theirs shows the same and nobody can find anything on this . Found nothing in the notes about this. Whats going on
  • cforest#0755 cforest Member Posts: 61 Arc User

    So holy fervor in the previous mod would give the 20% onto the ap gain in your stats . It no longer shows. My standing ap went from 105 to 85 . several other clerics confirmed theirs shows the same and nobody can find anything on this . Found nothing in the notes about this. Whats going on

    Holy Fervor still functions the same, it's just not showing on the stat sheet.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    giz#2086 said:

    fns2005 said:

    > @putzboy78 said:

    > Who really levels an SW hoping they can make a GWF get big numbers in a dungeon?



    This right here, other dps classes right now are pretty buffer companions to hold the gwf's hand.

    My first toon was a GWF, was a boring class imo, so i made a SW because i wanted a DPS character, SW was a HDPS class (broken or not, tell me a HDPS class now without broken mechanics) Indeed, now all dps classes are only support to a main dps class....Yes GWF or GF. And even when some people gets salty with this kind of comments, we're a lot of players that feels that the only viable dps class in this game is GWF...and infinite Griffon's Wrath spammer class. Devs can't hear us, they want it this way, they made the 4 support 1 dps META.
    I will state this both the GWF and GF have broken mechanics.

    GF Knight's Challenge should only make it so that when it is active the GF gets 100% threat and is the focus of the target that has Knight's Challegen
    putzboy78 said:

    the 2 DC meta hate continues when as repeatedly stated the problem is a four support meta. For all the DPSrs QQing about not getting a spot in rotations, tough luck. You will need to roll a support class. Displace DO and you will need to run templock, oppressor or pathfinder because they step in as the 4th buffer (behind AC, OP, & GF). You may be running that class, but lets be honest you don't want to be a buffer and who can blame you for actually wanting to be a DPS. Who really levels an SW hoping they can make a GWF get big numbers in a dungeon? The change as promised by noworries would put DC buffs on par with that group, not better than that group.

    Complete nerf to TI puts DO out of the rotation, and even if DO dps potential is raised, DO will not crack the DPS meta builds of GWF, GF, GWF, or SW. Couple that with the fact DO can't queue as a dps and you literally have to sacrifice running with an AC to have a DO for public queues. DO is out of business.

    I don't expect cryptic to resolve this anytime soon as we are now in the holiday season where famously nothing gets done. The developer who perhaps had the skills to implement the changes has gone and his replacement will need significantly more time to get familiar with the coding to correct it. Then it has to sit on preview for a couple of weeks. Basically DO is dead until module 16.

    I know I'm going to wish i had gotten some more of that hunt RAD to tied me over until i can get into dungeons again. Guess that was poor planning on my part.

    Want to fix the 4 support meta anytime soon? Implement diminishing returns. Something cryptic has been avoiding for 9 mods now. They have continually had to hit game mechanics with the nerf bat to slow the power creep and resolve the occasional infinite power loops that occurred because they didn't plan for synergies all because there wasn't a diminishing return that would effectively limit these mechanics from getting out of control. Diminishing returns would provide creativity in team layout (because who cares once you've hit the steep DR thresholds), provide more room for dps once buff or power thresholds are hit, and character design (at some point even gwf would find value in stacking recovery over crit/power if DR thresholds are severe).

    All of these "balances" whether its the nerf to bonding, switching to sharing base power only, removing power looks between dcs, removing power loops between OP & DC, nerfing TR power looping, implementing DR on debuffs (and somehow ignoring buff for DR), etc are all bandaid repairs. They are addressing the same design flaw that happened in module 6 because of a lack of resources available to implement DR. How much of our developer time has cryptic wasted on these bandaids, how much player rage have the had over each nerf that could have been avoided with a proper game design?

    Four support meta is now 5 support meta with two of them as hybrid.

    GF DPS and CW Renegade are great examples of high damaging hybrid builds that offer not only damage but also buff the group. Templocks, DO DCs, and even burnadins are all fairly high damaging builds with buffing capabilities. So long are the days of 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 DPS.
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