This run down is always entertaining. First let me start by saying we Archers are way tuffer than most of this content seems to imply and a growing part of the game is starting to understand this.NO! I will never be your primary Dps not my job. My job is to keep all the adds off your Dpsers six, slow down or stun the bad guys,then mow them down like grass. Its my job to keep the main Dps focused on the boss and not worry about whats going on behind them.I have a roll to play in a party and i do it well and when i do it well the party loves me if i hamster it the hole party suffers With that said some of these changes are going to be awsome some will have 0 effect.I dont know if getting party buff would make us Op but i do know they incresed our proc time to stop all the boo hooing about how op we were back in the day lol not the only thing they did but it was the one that made me cry the most. To sum what im trying to say up is take what we get and learn to use it to your advantage then have fun Hr is still the most fun toon to play IMA. just to make a small point my HR sees more tongs than my almost 18k GWF gets to even sniff lol
Cannot describe how unimpressed I am by the changes list.
On the positive side, thank you for finally, after what, 4 years or so, overhauling our dodge mechanic.
On the negative side, pretty much everything else.
In PVE, no-one plays an archer. No-one. Everyone is combat or less often, trapper. Because meta. Your "stand next to the DC/other DC/OP/GF" meta.
In pvp, as archer, believe me as I'm probably THE most experienced archer on pc right now, you do not stand still. You can stand still if you like, but then you get ganked, and can stand still a bit more, in spawn. You might get one or two stacks max, right at the start on the initial rush to mid, while everyone is busy. Capping a node alone, as archer is rare. We have TRs for that. Please just leave stillness as it is, or alternatively make it funny, like "you shoot paintballs turning your enemies bright pink".
In short, these changes kill the only viable dps build HRs have in pvp. We, (or I, if I'm honest - I'm one of the only three HRs in the top pages of the leaderboard and those above me got to page 2 and stopped playing) were only hanging on by a thread in pvp anyway. That's it for the pvp HR.
And to think, I just bought a swift lion. What a mug.
It seems you are trying to make us into a buffer..? Parties have GFs, DCs, OPs, MoF CWs... with buffs insanely better.
For a while, a few mods ago, HRs were a viable alternative to GWFs as a party choice for dps. What was wrong with that..? Now we've been nerfed back into the pve hinterlands, while GWFs have just kept on getting stronger.
To be constructive:
All we have ever wanted has been 4 things.
Fix careful attack. Improve base movespeed. Give us a reliable cc-breaker. Fix our dodge.
Stillness of the Forest as it is, is absolutely class for the Archer... why change something that is good, works and no-one has ever complained about? (That question is to the Dev's).
Yeah, frankly they should not have touch stillness of forest. Its what define archer as a range class. People who complain about stillness are those that are so used to play melee or those that wanted party buffs. Either way, both will destroy archer as a range class. I can't believe the developer actually buying it.
On my feedback side, i would like to see a new functionality to marauder's escape encounter, it's too penalizing to take a whole encounter slot just to jump backwards, i mean, i can do that on my own, i think it's only logical that marauder's escape have a CC break, since you only would want to escape if a lot of npcs are about to toss their control powers on you, whats the point of escaping if you can't escape at all if being controlled?
I like your idea and I think it would be great to also add something extra to marauder's rush. As it stands, the damage done is so small that if you already are in melee range of the target it essentially does nothing. I'd suggest adding an extra effect if the target is in melee range, like more damage or pulling mobs to you. The cooldown also is too long for a mostly utility power.
It was meant in a way that the with range increasing self buffs somehow compensate the decreasing effectiveness of group buffs and you could play a little with how you adjust your distance to the group but you are right, the idea is not well thought out, and probably not achievable at all, so forget about it.
Range increasing self buff are part of the core for archery much like the 30% damage boost from trapper capstone. It should not be compensated or archery will lose its dps potential. Looking at archery single target capstone and the slow animation to cast an encounter, is more than enough to compensate that.
You dont get my point but as i said, forget about it it was more or less nonsense. Nevertheless, my first post in this thread was meant seriously
so this is going to be my feedback: First, there is a bug with ambush encounter power, if you try to use a "casting" power while ambushed, you lose all 3:the damage of the encounter, the stealth and the damage bonus, before the power even finishes casting. Second: Some encounters like rain of arrows or split the sky can't benefit from some weapon enchantments, archery heavily depends on these encounters and you won't beneift a bit from them if you use enchants like lightning or prominence. Third: HR's daggers/axes have half base damage, so you always are half efective for things like enchantments(specially lightning or prominence) or even powers, one example would be ambush, if you proc ambush damage from melee, you will only get half of ambush's damage and i don't see a logical reason why daggers have half base damage. Fourth:When i stand still and use my powers normally, suddenly my "Stillness of the forest stacks" disappear or reset. Fifth: Combat capstone, it is in a fairly stable position right now, but it interrupts the smoothness of your rotation by not refreshing itself when you chain your encounters, if i use 2 encounters, one after another, the flurry efect is gone by the time i want to use my at-will, so you either use 1 encounter or 3 encounters to be able to benefit from flurry, there is no option to use 2 encounters.
Now just some little suggetions: Marauder's escape: this encounter is really punishing you for using it, it takes a whole encounter slot just to jump backwards, i can do that on my own, it would be only logical that this power had a CC break mechanic, because when you really need to escape, you can't at all since you are being controlled.
At-Wills: right now, no one would argue that HRs and CWs have the worst at-wills in the game, but CW get rewarded with some control and synergies if they use them, meanwhile HRs just gain nothing but low damage output, i think would be fair to increase at-will damage in general, but lower the combat tree capstone too, so it remains balanced, and also give out new effects that reward players for using all the combo hits, for example, in rapid strike/rapid shot: "the fourth hit leaves a stack(max2) of "battle learnt", battle learnt: makes your fourth hit deal an additonal hit per stack." Or: Split shot /Split Strike: for every enemy hit, you get 2% reduced incoming damage. Or aimed shot / aimed strike: Reduce your cast time depending on how far your enemy is(ranged). Reduce your cast time depending on how close your enemy is (melee) With Electric shot / clear the ground it's funny, because it already have an effect: "you deal less damage the farther your enemy is", and if your enemies are close together, you're better off with split strike then, for the ranged part, it's basicly the same damage as if you were spamming split shot, so this at-will doesn't have a clear purpose. Little things like these can make the player want to use their at-wills even if they have their encounter powers up already, and the effects i mentioned above aren't game breaking or anything, so would be a win-win for everyone.
About stilness of the forest/aspect of the serpent, im a HR main, and let me tell you, those changes are nerfs in powers that need buffs right now, regarding stillness of the forest i would suggest: Stillness of the forest: Successful ranged attacks with your at-wills, grants 4% more damage and 6% more critical strike for 5 seconds, stacks 4 times. Aspect of the serpent: can now stack 4 times, dealing 7% more damage per stack, and now can affect you both at the same time. that suggestion of AotS would render it as you propose: using 3 encounter + 1 at-will to fill 4 stacks of the opposite instance, so if i have 4 ranged stacks and use a ranged power, i would end up with 3 ranged stacks and 1 melee stack.
Now that you are considering HR as supports with the introduction of primal instincts, you should make it so that longstrider's buff is also affected by primal instincts, not it's effectivness, but his up time. Thorn ward should be a proper AoE, affecting all enemies inside of it. Fox's shift should be a proper AoE like bloodbath, instead it behaves as a Cone of fire power, once i activate this power and it moves me to the front of the enemies with the first slash, it won't attack anymore because enemies are now behind/besides me. Also this power should hit 3 times if theres only 1 enemy.
Even though we appreciated the revamp of cruel recovery, it just went from "not working" to "useless" what im supposed to do with 2k temporal hit points per critical in a game where NPCs deal millions of damage each hit? the best case scenario would be 23k temp hp at max stacks, do you think i could survive at least 1 atropal spit with 23k additional hp? no one would use cruel recovery over aspect of the lone wolf, the other defensive class feature. It would be more interesting if cruel recovery would give 2% of max hp as temporal hp, max stacks = 10 and now affects allies.
> @azraelh1984 said: > i vote for aspect of the serpent with one stack but same dmg and crit, so combat build will be a lil more brilliant > > sounds nice but some kind of overpowered. I hope for three stacks without the need to build them up, like "range 3-2-1 switch stance to melee 3-2-1 …" this would be useful ---------------------------------------------------------
Aspect of Snake
Real, with 3 consumable stacks you wont be able to use Melee stacks, only initial rotation...
Combat build rotation its this: Apply Debuff with One Bow Skill, Swap, Melee Encounter, 3 seconds of at Will, Another Encounter, 3 seconf of at Will (melee), Another Encounter, 3 seconf of at Will (melee), than re apply Debuff with Bow skill...
With this rotation its impossible to gain stacks... you gain one initial Melee Stack, you use it, you do Combat rotation, gain 3 Stacks, use one to refresh Debuff (3 - 1 = 2 stacks of Bow)
Trapper build never use all 3 encounters of one stance, best rotation will be use ONE power of melee, switch and use one Bow, so you always get '''all''' buffs from Feat... we can do 2 skills of each stance, so one can be in reloading when we change stance, use 2 encounter and than return on reloading one, or i lack of reload speed (4.5k) or you cant spam all 3 melee Encounters, than go on Bow, spam 3 Encounters and than return on Melee stance and spam, faster powers need 1 second to reload (okay in paty with mount insigna you can get easy one second of reload speed 1k) plant growth and skills with 'charges' are the problem for me...
Definitely im not for 3 stack Aspect of Serpent, cause if you can switch stance spam at will, encounter, than change stance and do same, will be the best solution on Archery build, Trapper (to increase dmg of 3%), and Archery that can stop using the YellowPassive based on distance from enemy (and become a sniper like build)
Also in power management, there are 2 slow powers that you need to press 2 or 3 times before they come up in rotation (not moving) Plant Growt, really you need to stop 1 second before you can use it (or its time based, good timing no wait..) and LongStrider Shot not coming up inside 2 Shifts or right after 2 shift (you shift 2 time in same moment, press LongStrider Encounter and its not 'recorded' as pressed)
Buff with LSS its a lil tricky, for me the best solution its to get highest Movement so you can easily in one jump go back, buff and return in combat... Shift isnt the fastest solution to me, it must be best solution because you can regenerate stamina in a lot of modes, but on the paper it is bugged, i hope you can fix shift to be a little more like an hide and seek game, witouth glitched powers that cant come up right after shift of before (animations cancels can be de solution of a really fast archer, no abuse just a little easier mode to decrease long animations and hide faster)
In PVE, no-one plays an archer. No-one. Everyone is combat or less often, trapper. Because meta. Your "stand next to the DC/other DC/OP/GF" meta.
I play Archer and only archer. I despise us trying to play wannabe TRs. I can do just fine without standing next to those other people cause 9/10 I'm doing support. I do support as good if not better than most MoF CWs. So don't speak for us who hate the fact we can't use our main weapons. I want Archer to be viable and strong and worth playing. I can do all zones with ease and with my Barkshield I can survive better than most. Though I agree as an Archer I hardly stand still to defend against AoE attacks. So DEVs if you're listening, not making it distance based is great. But making it standing still based sucks because you can't really do that in most fights.
In PVE, no-one plays an archer. No-one. Everyone is combat or less often, trapper. Because meta. Your "stand next to the DC/other DC/OP/GF" meta.
I play Archer and only archer. I despise us trying to play wannabe TRs. I can do just fine without standing next to those other people cause 9/10 I'm doing support. I do support as good if not better than most MoF CWs. So don't speak for us who hate the fact we can't use our main weapons. I want Archer to be viable and strong and worth playing. I can do all zones with ease and with my Barkshield I can survive better than most. Though I agree as an Archer I hardly stand still to defend against AoE attacks. So DEVs if you're listening, not making it distance based is great. But making it standing still based sucks because you can't really do that in most fights.
With support you meaning like dealing damage as a companion or what? because im an HR, and i don't see how i can support my allies in damage by 40%, increase their crit by 35% and debuff enemies's damage resistance by 110% like a MoF do.
I'm glad that you guys noticed HR's were getting into dungeons 25% of the time. Taking away the DPS in these changes should make sure there is a 0% chance anyone will take an HR. On the bright side, if your healer dies, the HR can step in and heal. Did cryptic remember to make a DPS build for the clerics while they were nerfing HRs?
you misunderstand me. It wasn't a propose for a better usability of AotS to the Combat tree. They really don't need a buff. It was just a propose for a practicable solution for the trapper.
Don't know what kind of rotation you use for your trapper. Try this and you will realise how effective AotS with 3-2-1-3-2-1 could be
Build up stacks with RS before fight, then go in with Crystal CA switch LSS HS RS DS switch GW PG HS RS repeat with LSS
With a 3-2-1-3-2-1 AotS we can skip the RS to get more melees buffed by LSS
I've just 3k Recovery and no insignia bonus and never get a problem with cooldowns
Don't know exactly wich buffs come together at all, but the damage of my PG increase from 150k to 420k, GW 15k to 42k
Your porpose of a "one stack - hole buff" AotS would crash the whole rotation to buff you up to the full potential. You will be busy with stance dance insted of buffing and damaging
Yea I meant Careful Attack has been broken at least 6-9 months! Very wise and great point firesidekitty! I mean who doesn't love a cat even when they laugh at you. My goodness I remember I respected from Stormwarden to Pathfinder cause someone recommended I do so for my Trapper, then no more than 1-3 weeks later it was broken and mostly stopped working? I waited almost 5-8 months then gave up switching back a month or so ago to Stormwarden.
I even specifically asked about that in a message to one of the DEVS just recently. Perhaps that is something they will address in the near future?
lol aww
but seriously. I do miss playing trapper. if they fixed careful attack it would be nice to go back to. then even if our dps isn't the highest in the game anymore we're good to have around as buff bots that deal respectable damage. Combat is boring. it's a poor mans gwf lol. archery might be fun to play with if they could get pets work with it and somehow balance the fact that archers don't get buffs. with out that consideration in the mix I just don't see how it will ever be relevant.
Yea I think I changed my Archer to Combat but I'd also agree it does more damage for End Game Dungeon's but certainly not enjoyable. While I have Trapper as my MAIN I changed my Archer Hybrid build to full Combat, and despite learning how to familiarize myself with it, I have honestly hardly played it cause I don't enjoy it.
So I'll be happy to TRY Archery again! I mean some LOVE combat but it certainly isn't my thing either like the cute cat said.
@noworries#8859 Remember when after the PvP with the devs event you joined me and MiniMi in a PvP match on preview. We both played HR and had an epic 1v1 on a node playing Combat HR. Please use your developer powers to resurrect that build. At the time it was the only viable thing HRs had in PvP. It was balanced and the only thing HR needed at that time was some animation fixes for Fox's shift and an overhaul for the dodge mechanic. Recently in mod14 that build has been demolished to bits and now it's tanked completely, a final 15th nail in the coffin if you will.
You have the power. Use it.
May we meet again on that node. And when we do. We won't be able to kill each other because nerfs.
p.s. please remind mimicking of the moment he got bullcharged into the spike pit he made on gauntlgrim. Tell him it still makes me giggle to this day.
My archer's Crit has been nerfed so bad I can't stand playing. Stillness of the Forest rework drops my crit percentage as though you'd stepped into my account and stolen a bunch of level 14 azures. 2.5 * 6 is much, much less than 25%. And that's just a cursory first glance. This is a huge nerf that has a significant cash value if you want to put the numbers to it in wards, refining stones, and rp.
Trapper will be fine but build will change in a way the dev did not originally intent. Basically you will be kicking AotS which they 'buffed' for primal instincts and use hawkshot - Coa - Lss combo to get 68% buff value for party and some personal damage to GW and PG - but again I don't think this was the original intent of those changes
After looking more carefully, I've discovered that the previous 25% crit boost has been replaced with a 1%. My crit chance in mod 14 is 90.3% with Stillness of the Forest. It's 66.3% in mod 15 with 6 stacks.
My current mod-14 playstyle uses lots of movement speed (Longstrider's shot, weapon artifact powers, Dark enchants, etc.) to help me maintain distance and quickly reposition myself to keep my 25% crit bonus. This is a HUGE 24% nerf to a functional archer build.
While others may be happy using their off-hand weapons all the time like a stealthless TR, I'm not. I don't want to play trapper or combat roles. If 400 stat points = 1%, that's a total of 400 * 24 = 9600 points of reduction. Is the 1% increase a bug in the new implementation? According to the description, it should be an increase of 15% (6 stacks at 2.5% each = 15.0%). That would translate to a reduction of 10%, or 4000 stat points.
[edit: Confirmed by retraining feats: the new Stillness of the Forest does not add any crit % at all. Same crit percent both with and without the feat, waited for stacks to appear.]
Take into consideration the already diminished performance of the Archer path in parties due to the requirement to be at distance (distance which, btw, I don't mind and actually enjoy), and the path has been terminally altered. Please consider removing the changes to this feat.
1) Movement currently does not lower the number of stacks indicated by the stillness icon. I log on , it's at 6. I get on the mount and ride around it's at 6, I zone it's at 6, I run around it's at 6.
No idea if this is a reporting error, or the feat not responding to movement.
2. These tests were all run with aspect of the pack active, a transcendent vorpal enhancement, an additional 22.% crit severity from companions, 25% Combat advantage bonus from companion
3. Methodology for all tests a dummy from the group of 3 in trade of blades was selected it would be fired at from the corner with shelving dist ??, commanding shot would be used to apply the capstone Buff/Debuff ? Predator/prey (don't know how you want to refer to that), aimed shot would then be repeated until the icon on the target disappeared and the process would repeat. Target number for number attacks 120 for each test.
On live with companion active and stillness indicated 97.1 % crit chance, IL 15614
Aimed Shot Enc DPS: 121,495.26 AVG HIT: 259,129.44 Median Hit: 269,010 Min Hit: 121,338 Max Hit:311,852 Crit Rate 97% Combat adv: 100%
On Live without the companion 68.9% Crit Chance, IL 13465 Aimed Shot: Enc DPS 88,605.70 AVG Hit: 71,337.65 Median Hit: 163,013 Max Hit: 195,703 Crit Rate 68% Combat Adv: 0%
On Test With Companion Crit Chance 77.1% Aimed Shot: Enc DPS: 75,874.39 AVG HIT: 195,094.83 Median Hit: 205,855 Max Hit: 244,991 Crit Rate: 89% 0% 116.9% Combat Adv: 0%
On Test Without Companion Crit Chance 48.1 Aimed Shot:" Enc DPS: 68,249.54 AVG HIT: 116,024.21 Median Hit: 143,976 Max Hit: 191,208 Crit Rate: 54% Combat Adv: 0%
The known bug of aspect of the pack not granting combat advantage is shown here. So best comparison is without companion on live to without companion on test.
Reported overall encounter dps on live: 88,605 on test 80,022.
This is a 10% drop in DPS and by my guess, is from having to use commanding shot twice as often to maintain the capstone buff/debuff on the target.
Commanding shot has a very long animation and low damage.
If this was meant to make archers more viable it seems to do the opposite.
If the goal is to make archers some sort of buffer, consider converting aspect of the pack/aspect of the lone wolf into auras that mimic the functionality of the paladins.
If you are unwilling to make archers a buffer that buffs well, please stop. Nobody wants to play something that does nothing well. As things stand archers dps poorly Buff a little when they arent running away Survive by running away (which makes it hard to dps or buff and is really annoying when mobs spawn on top of them) Can usually heal themselves if they can get away from the mobs.
Edit: A few minor other things. 1) some feature akin to city of heroes real number function that would let you monitor your stats and last hits in a window would be very welcome and help people improve their play 2) Making the buffs on the player and the target more readable would also be welcome. Even on a 40 inch monitor I find it difficult to read the target bar for the dummies and anything but a boss, even the bosses are difficult because of the large number of effects.
When I read the opening "we feel hunter rangers are in a pretty good spot" right away I know they are completely out of touch with reality.
I main a combat HR, I can hold my own but thats b/c im at 16k ilv, we are still at a disadvantage to most other classes b/c our pitiful single target damage.
These laughable changes do absolutely nothing to change the current meta of what people want for tong/codg/cr. Archery is still going to be a complete joke, trapper will still be meh, and combat will stay as is.
If you can’t hang with similar IL DPS players of other classes that is due to poor play/build. HR (Combat) can one-phase bosses just like every other DPS class.
Please consider changing how AotS works. It will kill the trapper path since we now have to perform 6 attacks to build stacks. It's completely ruining trapper rotation. W cannot rely on spamming atwills since we not getting damage out of them, cause we only can use Dread enchantment. It is impossible to shoot LSS and build 3 stacks of AotS to hit with PG while LSS buff is still up.
Revert Aspect of The Serpent back to 2 stacks, and buff the damage of stacks. The rotaion on trapper is awful. Very difficult to maintain constant dps.
Trapper relies on the LSS+GW/PG combo, this is not gonna roll well with the current 3 stack method, we have to shoot 6 times now to gain melee stacks to full 3.
Ex. now trapper uses LSS+CA+RS+DS (4 shots) switch to melee PG+SB+RS+RS(back to full 2 ranged stacks), with little variations depending on target count.
the 6 hits on every stance is gonna be a nightmare, just boost the stack damage and strip the 3rd away.
@isssssho root duration decreased? ASpect with 3 stacks is a fn joke. im a dps trapper i dont ride the buff train, thats for lame'os. no fix to CA (PATHFINDER is obsolete), but hey they buff blade storm's dmg by a good amount. they keep relegating trapper to a supporter, and that isnt right. HAMSTER craptic. my rotation doesnt include sad hawkshot or primal instincts. i cant see how some players think that decreased root duration is a buff for a trapper... they should just buff AOTS and keep it as it is (2 stacks is fine) they should focus on other stuff like the lame dodge, or lame atwills and CA fix. make no mistake, they want to defo kill trapper pathfinder build and thats sad. and dont make me talk about pvp
This is what happens when people don’t test/theorycraft and just expect the same old things to always work. As I have already stated twice in this thread: the changes to AotS are a DPS buff if you are willing to tweak your rotation slightly! Hint: You should not ever have more than one ranged stack.
Yeah, frankly they should not have touch stillness of forest. Its what define archer as a range class. People who complain about stillness are those that are so used to play melee or those that wanted party buffs. Either way, both will destroy archer as a range class. I can't believe the developer actually buying it.
I play Archer and only archer. I despise us trying to play wannabe TRs. I can do just fine without standing next to those other people cause 9/10 I'm doing support. I do support as good if not better than most MoF CWs. So don't speak for us who hate the fact we can't use our main weapons. I want Archer to be viable and strong and worth playing. I can do all zones with ease and with my Barkshield I can survive better than most. Though I agree as an Archer I hardly stand still to defend against AoE attacks. So DEVs if you're listening, not making it distance based is great. But making it standing still based sucks because you can't really do that in most fights.
As anyone who has played an archery spec at IL for content can tell you, these changes don't do anything to change Archery viability. Movement is key to survival as an archer, standing still as a means to generate more damage is antithetical to the archery path. ... Bottom line is the +damage for increased range is a bad mechanic in a group buff driven game with buff AoE range limits. It needs to be replaced with rewards for staying in ranged stance and giving up the melee attacks. Current rework plan changes nothing in that equation.
Being realistic, an Archer currently does not provide enough buffing potential to be worth bringing over any actual buffer. Poor DPS and minimal party contribution are the hallmarks of an Archer. Contrary to what others are saying, the changes made here were largely made with the goal of removing the distance requirements that currently cripple the Archer path. I agree that standing still isn’t optimal either, but survivability is enhanced by being within buff range anyway.
Actually I'm spending time on preview testing the trapper playstyle since I was really hoping for reviving this path in upcoming mod.
I would like you to stop asuming people are idiots and are only theorycrafting here. What you are basically suggesting relying on stacks for melee powers which basically makes us Combat wannabe - so why even try and not play Combat if you should avoid using your range powers to their full potential? If we want to focus on melee stacks only then why even go Trapper path instead of Combat which will do it much better?
Trapper is balance on fighting in both stances, there wasn't a one stance that you were spending most time in the playtime.
> @rjc9000 said: > We are hoping that this gives trapper a slight damage boost as well as other builds that switch stances often. > > > If you wanted to buff Trapper, > > why does Thorned Roots not scale with certain buffs, such as the Soul Sight Crystal or the Ranged/Melee Hunt gear (doesn't matter which scales it/doesnt scale it, the fact that neither do puts Trapper at a disadvantage)?
Actually I'm spending time on preview testing the trapper playstyle since I was really hoping for reviving this path in upcoming mod.
...(Removed per mod request)... What you are basically suggesting relying on stacks for melee powers which basically makes us Combat wannabe - so why even try and not play Combat if you should avoid using your range powers to their full potential? If we want to focus on melee stacks only then why even go Trapper path instead of Combat which will do it much better?
Trapper is balance on fighting in both stances, there wasn't a one stance that you were spending most time in the playtime.
I too was hoping trapper would get more of a boost, I find it to be more fun than Combat. I’m just tired of people arguing that the AotS change is a direct nerf, when it has the potential to increase DPS. I don’t think only worrying about building melee stacks makes us a Combat wannabes any more than the trapper already is. (Gushing Wound and Plant Growth are the heavy hitters no matter how you build) In fact, the best rotation I’ve tested on preview spends the exact same split of melee/ranged time as current rotations on live do, because it’s almost identical. The trick is just getting the stacks where they count.
I suggest you try one of two rotations: 1) Start with one ranged stack → LSS → Tab x2→ CA → Tab x2→ DS → RS → Tab → PG → GW → SB → RS → Tab 2) Start with no stacks → LSS → Tab x2→ CA → Tab x2→ DS → Tab → PG → GW → SB → Tab
Both of the above offer at least a 6% DPS increase over the standard rotation on live. The first is slightly superior, as long as your button mashing/connection allow you to get both PG and GW off inside of the LSS buff window. The second is more forgiving on the LSS buff window, but requires some amount of recovery to function seamlessly. I would argue both are still classically Trapper, not discount Combat.
All of that said, I think we can both agree that Serpent stacks are not the primary problem with Trapper. Thorned Roots are the real issue, as mentioned by several others already. Careful Attack is a secondary concern, but some changes there wouldn't hurt either.
@maximus#5077 well nobody is making you play different style but that doesn't mean your playstyle will always be bis one. I'm just saying what will be bis if things like this hit live. Stuff changes over time and best we can do is adapt imo.
Contrary to what others are saying, the changes made here were largely made with the goal of removing the distance requirements that currently cripple the Archer path.
The goal to remove the distance requirements are steering archery in the wrong direction. It does not use much common sense to know that Archery should excel at range and not melee. The original stillness of forest are the feat that are making sure of that. It is not the cause that cripple archery tree. It is the unthoughtful design of the range of buff in this game that are causing the problem. So get your fact straight before commenting.
Instead of messing with stillness of forest which are the only feat that define archer as a range class, they need fix the archer real issue. They could increase the buff range of each buff in the game or they could do as I suggested earlier by making archer able to gain whatever buff its party member are having as long as the member are within the archer range. That will save the developer alot trouble and without breaking pvp as party member need to be in the archer range to be able to give archer the buff.
...TRs or GWFs with 2-3k less total item level can easily deal twice the damage of a BiS HR. CWs, for all their complaining, are a better DPS class. ..
This is pure hyperbole. If you are getting your damage doubled by any class at a lower IL there are four possiblities: 1) You are bad at HR, 2) You have a bad build (archer), 3) You artificially inflated your IL, 4) Some combination of the above.
You know I have been playing HR for quite awhile, I almost never see another in the random queues and the number of times I see them exceeding or reasonably matching (within 25%) of the other dps is vanishingly small. It's worse for a ranged archery spec of course but that goes without saying.
that's weird cause whenever i random que I'm usually top dps by a long shot (ofc, I usually am a good 1 to 3k il higher than the next person in the q too. )
Being realistic, an Archer currently does not provide enough buffing potential to be worth bringing over any actual buffer. Poor DPS and minimal party contribution are the hallmarks of an Archer. Contrary to what others are saying, the changes made here were largely made with the goal of removing the distance requirements that currently cripple the Archer path. I agree that standing still isn’t optimal either, but survivability is enhanced by being within buff range anyway.
This basically. Prior to the proposed Stillness of the Forest change, there's really only one viable build, which is to stack SotF+Falcon+offhandFalcon+HuntingHawk. One can't do anything else because SotF is a high end feat you have to take.
Decoupling SotF from range allows Archers to experiment with other builds.
One can still do the older ranged build. It's less effective than with old SofF and the problem remains with the Companion not attacking and party buff range.
I much prefer my older suggestion from older threads to add the Falcon Range to receiving Party and Companion attack range. But I'm gonna wait for Balance's update on his overall plan for Archery synergy.
But as I've said in my original post in this thread, he has to address two things: Mobility and Cast time of RainofArrow/SplitTheSky for Archery tree ONLY>
Archery has all the short end of the stick (horrific ability synergy): Low Mobility + Long cast Time + Damage over time + Low Damage + Interruptibility = Low damage
GWF has all the high end of the stick (perfect ability synergy): High Mobility(alpha strike) + insta cast + direct damage + easy buffs + high damage = High damage
Give Archers the highest base mobility in PvE so we get alpha strike and make Rain of Arrows / Split the Sky instant-cast for Archery tree.
Hasty Retreat should be completely reworked as pure speed buff, not while being hit.
With the change to stillness of the forest, we now got 2 feats that countradict each other: Hasty retreat: gives you mobility, SotF: gain damage when you stand still, lose it when you move. Theres no place in a action mmo for a feat that makes you stuck in the ground in order to deal damage, even worse in a game in which melee enemies close the range gap in less than a second.
With melee: I already told some devs in the past about blade storm: When you introduced the cap of how many foes could you hit with an AoE and limited it to a max of 5, you basicly killed all the potential damage of Blade Storm, which is a class feature that increase damage as you hit more foes with a single attack, since that update, this class feature was caped too indirectly, i told devs that this class feature needed some compensation, but instead they disabled the ability of this class feature to work with Plant Growth and Gushing Wound, totally anihilating it, in this upcoming module, i saw they gave blade storm some attention, but still the powers that could use this class feature the most, can't do it. People nowadays use blade storm because there is no other option, after all 1% more damage is better than 0% damage.
And lastly:daily "Cold Steel Hurricane", in it's current state, it's just a downgraded akward Seismic Shot, i think would be cool and fun if the electric storm would behave as Orcus's pursuing spheres, dealing damage each second while snaring enemies
Hey @devs . It would be awesome if anyone of you could comment on the feedback so far like you did in TR and DC threads. Please, let us know what do you think about it and maybe propose some changes. Thanks!
Comments
On the positive side, thank you for finally, after what, 4 years or so, overhauling our dodge mechanic.
On the negative side, pretty much everything else.
In PVE, no-one plays an archer. No-one. Everyone is combat or less often, trapper. Because meta. Your "stand next to the DC/other DC/OP/GF" meta.
In pvp, as archer, believe me as I'm probably THE most experienced archer on pc right now, you do not stand still. You can stand still if you like, but then you get ganked, and can stand still a bit more, in spawn. You might get one or two stacks max, right at the start on the initial rush to mid, while everyone is busy. Capping a node alone, as archer is rare. We have TRs for that. Please just leave stillness as it is, or alternatively make it funny, like "you shoot paintballs turning your enemies bright pink".
In short, these changes kill the only viable dps build HRs have in pvp. We, (or I, if I'm honest - I'm one of the only three HRs in the top pages of the leaderboard and those above me got to page 2 and stopped playing) were only hanging on by a thread in pvp anyway. That's it for the pvp HR.
And to think, I just bought a swift lion. What a mug.
It seems you are trying to make us into a buffer..? Parties have GFs, DCs, OPs, MoF CWs... with buffs insanely better.
For a while, a few mods ago, HRs were a viable alternative to GWFs as a party choice for dps. What was wrong with that..? Now we've been nerfed back into the pve hinterlands, while GWFs have just kept on getting stronger.
To be constructive:
All we have ever wanted has been 4 things.
Fix careful attack.
Improve base movespeed.
Give us a reliable cc-breaker.
Fix our dodge.
Please don't get inventive. Just do the above.
First, there is a bug with ambush encounter power, if you try to use a "casting" power while ambushed, you lose all 3:the damage of the encounter, the stealth and the damage bonus, before the power even finishes casting.
Second: Some encounters like rain of arrows or split the sky can't benefit from some weapon enchantments, archery heavily depends on these encounters and you won't beneift a bit from them if you use enchants like lightning or prominence.
Third: HR's daggers/axes have half base damage, so you always are half efective for things like enchantments(specially lightning or prominence) or even powers, one example would be ambush, if you proc ambush damage from melee, you will only get half of ambush's damage and i don't see a logical reason why daggers have half base damage.
Fourth:When i stand still and use my powers normally, suddenly my "Stillness of the forest stacks" disappear or reset.
Fifth: Combat capstone, it is in a fairly stable position right now, but it interrupts the smoothness of your rotation by not refreshing itself when you chain your encounters, if i use 2 encounters, one after another, the flurry efect is gone by the time i want to use my at-will, so you either use 1 encounter or 3 encounters to be able to benefit from flurry, there is no option to use 2 encounters.
Now just some little suggetions:
Marauder's escape: this encounter is really punishing you for using it, it takes a whole encounter slot just to jump backwards, i can do that on my own, it would be only logical that this power had a CC break mechanic, because when you really need to escape, you can't at all since you are being controlled.
At-Wills: right now, no one would argue that HRs and CWs have the worst at-wills in the game, but CW get rewarded with some control and synergies if they use them, meanwhile HRs just gain nothing but low damage output, i think would be fair to increase at-will damage in general, but lower the combat tree capstone too, so it remains balanced, and also give out new effects that reward players for using all the combo hits, for example, in rapid strike/rapid shot: "the fourth hit leaves a stack(max2) of "battle learnt", battle learnt: makes your fourth hit deal an additonal hit per stack."
Or: Split shot /Split Strike: for every enemy hit, you get 2% reduced incoming damage.
Or aimed shot / aimed strike: Reduce your cast time depending on how far your enemy is(ranged). Reduce your cast time depending on how close your enemy is (melee)
With Electric shot / clear the ground it's funny, because it already have an effect: "you deal less damage the farther your enemy is", and if your enemies are close together, you're better off with split strike then, for the ranged part, it's basicly the same damage as if you were spamming split shot, so this at-will doesn't have a clear purpose.
Little things like these can make the player want to use their at-wills even if they have their encounter powers up already, and the effects i mentioned above aren't game breaking or anything, so would be a win-win for everyone.
About stilness of the forest/aspect of the serpent, im a HR main, and let me tell you, those changes are nerfs in powers that need buffs right now, regarding stillness of the forest i would suggest:
Stillness of the forest: Successful ranged attacks with your at-wills, grants 4% more damage and 6% more critical strike for 5 seconds, stacks 4 times.
Aspect of the serpent: can now stack 4 times, dealing 7% more damage per stack, and now can affect you both at the same time.
that suggestion of AotS would render it as you propose: using 3 encounter + 1 at-will to fill 4 stacks of the opposite instance, so if i have 4 ranged stacks and use a ranged power, i would end up with 3 ranged stacks and 1 melee stack.
Now that you are considering HR as supports with the introduction of primal instincts, you should make it so that longstrider's buff is also affected by primal instincts, not it's effectivness, but his up time.
Thorn ward should be a proper AoE, affecting all enemies inside of it.
Fox's shift should be a proper AoE like bloodbath, instead it behaves as a Cone of fire power, once i activate this power and it moves me to the front of the enemies with the first slash, it won't attack anymore because enemies are now behind/besides me. Also this power should hit 3 times if theres only 1 enemy.
Even though we appreciated the revamp of cruel recovery, it just went from "not working" to "useless" what im supposed to do with 2k temporal hit points per critical in a game where NPCs deal millions of damage each hit? the best case scenario would be 23k temp hp at max stacks, do you think i could survive at least 1 atropal spit with 23k additional hp? no one would use cruel recovery over aspect of the lone wolf, the other defensive class feature.
It would be more interesting if cruel recovery would give 2% of max hp as temporal hp, max stacks = 10 and now affects allies.
> i vote for aspect of the serpent with one stack but same dmg and crit, so combat build will be a lil more brilliant
>
> sounds nice but some kind of overpowered. I hope for three stacks without the need to build them up, like "range 3-2-1 switch stance to melee 3-2-1 …" this would be useful
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Aspect of Snake
Real, with 3 consumable stacks you wont be able to use Melee stacks, only initial rotation...
Combat build rotation its this: Apply Debuff with One Bow Skill, Swap, Melee Encounter, 3 seconds of at Will, Another Encounter, 3 seconf of at Will (melee), Another Encounter, 3 seconf of at Will (melee), than re apply Debuff with Bow skill...
With this rotation its impossible to gain stacks... you gain one initial Melee Stack, you use it, you do Combat rotation, gain 3 Stacks, use one to refresh Debuff (3 - 1 = 2 stacks of Bow)
Trapper build never use all 3 encounters of one stance, best rotation will be use ONE power of melee, switch and use one Bow, so you always get '''all''' buffs from Feat... we can do 2 skills of each stance, so one can be in reloading when we change stance, use 2 encounter and than return on reloading one, or i lack of reload speed (4.5k) or you cant spam all 3 melee Encounters, than go on Bow, spam 3 Encounters and than return on Melee stance and spam, faster powers need 1 second to reload (okay in paty with mount insigna you can get easy one second of reload speed 1k) plant growth and skills with 'charges' are the problem for me...
Definitely im not for 3 stack Aspect of Serpent, cause if you can switch stance spam at will, encounter, than change stance and do same, will be the best solution on Archery build, Trapper (to increase dmg of 3%), and Archery that can stop using the YellowPassive based on distance from enemy (and become a sniper like build)
Also in power management, there are 2 slow powers that you need to press 2 or 3 times before they come up in rotation (not moving) Plant Growt, really you need to stop 1 second before you can use it (or its time based, good timing no wait..) and LongStrider Shot not coming up inside 2 Shifts or right after 2 shift (you shift 2 time in same moment, press LongStrider Encounter and its not 'recorded' as pressed)
Buff with LSS its a lil tricky, for me the best solution its to get highest Movement so you can easily in one jump go back, buff and return in combat... Shift isnt the fastest solution to me, it must be best solution because you can regenerate stamina in a lot of modes, but on the paper it is bugged, i hope you can fix shift to be a little more like an hide and seek game, witouth glitched powers that cant come up right after shift of before (animations cancels can be de solution of a really fast archer, no abuse just a little easier mode to decrease long animations and hide faster)
With support you meaning like dealing damage as a companion or what? because im an HR, and i don't see how i can support my allies in damage by 40%, increase their crit by 35% and debuff enemies's damage resistance by 110% like a MoF do.
you misunderstand me. It wasn't a propose for a better usability of AotS to the Combat tree. They really don't need a buff. It was just a propose for a practicable solution for the trapper.
Don't know what kind of rotation you use for your trapper. Try this and you will realise how effective AotS with 3-2-1-3-2-1 could be
Build up stacks with RS before fight, then go in with Crystal CA switch LSS HS RS DS switch GW PG HS RS repeat with LSS
With a 3-2-1-3-2-1 AotS we can skip the RS to get more melees buffed by LSS
I've just 3k Recovery and no insignia bonus and never get a problem with cooldowns
Don't know exactly wich buffs come together at all, but the damage of my PG increase from 150k to 420k, GW 15k to 42k
Your porpose of a "one stack - hole buff" AotS would crash the whole rotation to buff you up to the full potential. You will be busy with stance dance insted of buffing and damaging
So I'll be happy to TRY Archery again! I mean some LOVE combat but it certainly isn't my thing either like the cute cat said.
Recently in mod14 that build has been demolished to bits and now it's tanked completely, a final 15th nail in the coffin if you will.
You have the power. Use it.
May we meet again on that node.
And when we do.
We won't be able to kill each other because nerfs.
p.s. please remind mimicking of the moment he got bullcharged into the spike pit he made on gauntlgrim. Tell him it still makes me giggle to this day.
THC
http://www.theholycrusaders.com/
My current mod-14 playstyle uses lots of movement speed (Longstrider's shot, weapon artifact powers, Dark enchants, etc.) to help me maintain distance and quickly reposition myself to keep my 25% crit bonus. This is a HUGE 24% nerf to a functional archer build.
While others may be happy using their off-hand weapons all the time like a stealthless TR, I'm not. I don't want to play trapper or combat roles. If 400 stat points = 1%, that's a total of 400 * 24 = 9600 points of reduction. Is the 1% increase a bug in the new implementation? According to the description, it should be an increase of 15% (6 stacks at 2.5% each = 15.0%). That would translate to a reduction of 10%, or 4000 stat points.
[edit: Confirmed by retraining feats: the new Stillness of the Forest does not add any crit % at all. Same crit percent both with and without the feat, waited for stacks to appear.]
Take into consideration the already diminished performance of the Archer path in parties due to the requirement to be at distance (distance which, btw, I don't mind and actually enjoy), and the path has been terminally altered. Please consider removing the changes to this feat.
1) Movement currently does not lower the number of stacks indicated by the stillness icon. I log on , it's at 6. I get on the mount and ride around it's at 6, I zone it's at 6, I run around it's at 6.
No idea if this is a reporting error, or the feat not responding to movement.
2. These tests were all run with aspect of the pack active, a transcendent vorpal enhancement, an additional 22.% crit severity from companions, 25% Combat advantage bonus from companion
3. Methodology for all tests a dummy from the group of 3 in trade of blades was selected it would be fired at from the corner with shelving dist ??, commanding shot would be used to apply the capstone Buff/Debuff ? Predator/prey (don't know how you want to refer to that), aimed shot would then be repeated until the icon on the target disappeared and the process would repeat. Target number for number attacks 120 for each test.
On live with companion active and stillness indicated
97.1 % crit chance, IL 15614
Aimed Shot Enc DPS: 121,495.26 AVG HIT: 259,129.44 Median Hit: 269,010 Min Hit: 121,338 Max Hit:311,852 Crit Rate 97% Combat adv: 100%
On Live without the companion
68.9% Crit Chance, IL 13465
Aimed Shot: Enc DPS 88,605.70 AVG Hit: 71,337.65 Median Hit: 163,013 Max Hit: 195,703 Crit Rate 68% Combat Adv: 0%
On Test With Companion
Crit Chance 77.1%
Aimed Shot: Enc DPS: 75,874.39 AVG HIT: 195,094.83 Median Hit: 205,855 Max Hit: 244,991 Crit Rate: 89% 0% 116.9% Combat Adv: 0%
On Test Without Companion
Crit Chance 48.1
Aimed Shot:" Enc DPS: 68,249.54 AVG HIT: 116,024.21 Median Hit: 143,976 Max Hit: 191,208 Crit Rate: 54% Combat Adv: 0%
The known bug of aspect of the pack not granting combat advantage is shown here. So best comparison is without companion on live to without companion on test.
Reported overall encounter dps on live: 88,605 on test 80,022.
This is a 10% drop in DPS and by my guess, is from having to use commanding shot twice as often to maintain the capstone buff/debuff on the target.
Commanding shot has a very long animation and low damage.
If this was meant to make archers more viable it seems to do the opposite.
If the goal is to make archers some sort of buffer, consider converting aspect of the pack/aspect of the lone wolf into auras that mimic the functionality of the paladins.
If you are unwilling to make archers a buffer that buffs well, please stop. Nobody wants to play something that does nothing well.
As things stand archers dps poorly
Buff a little when they arent running away
Survive by running away (which makes it hard to dps or buff and is really annoying when mobs spawn on top of them)
Can usually heal themselves if they can get away from the mobs.
Edit: A few minor other things.
1) some feature akin to city of heroes real number function that would let you monitor your stats and last hits in a window would be very welcome and help people improve their play
2) Making the buffs on the player and the target more readable would also be welcome. Even on a 40 inch monitor I find it difficult to read the target bar for the dummies and anything but a boss, even the bosses are difficult because of the large number of effects.
HR Can’t Do Damage If you can’t hang with similar IL DPS players of other classes that is due to poor play/build. HR (Combat) can one-phase bosses just like every other DPS class.
Trapper is Dead This is what happens when people don’t test/theorycraft and just expect the same old things to always work. As I have already stated twice in this thread: the changes to AotS are a DPS buff if you are willing to tweak your rotation slightly! Hint: You should not ever have more than one ranged stack.
Archer Can Somehow Exist without Buffs Being realistic, an Archer currently does not provide enough buffing potential to be worth bringing over any actual buffer. Poor DPS and minimal party contribution are the hallmarks of an Archer. Contrary to what others are saying, the changes made here were largely made with the goal of removing the distance requirements that currently cripple the Archer path. I agree that standing still isn’t optimal either, but survivability is enhanced by being within buff range anyway.
Actually I'm spending time on preview testing the trapper playstyle since I was really hoping for reviving this path in upcoming mod.
I would like you to stop asuming people are idiots and are only theorycrafting here. What you are basically suggesting relying on stacks for melee powers which basically makes us Combat wannabe - so why even try and not play Combat if you should avoid using your range powers to their full potential? If we want to focus on melee stacks only then why even go Trapper path instead of Combat which will do it much better?
Trapper is balance on fighting in both stances, there wasn't a one stance that you were spending most time in the playtime.
> We are hoping that this gives trapper a slight damage boost as well as other builds that switch stances often.
>
>
> If you wanted to buff Trapper,
>
> why does Thorned Roots not scale with certain buffs, such as the Soul Sight Crystal or the Ranged/Melee Hunt gear (doesn't matter which scales it/doesnt scale it, the fact that neither do puts Trapper at a disadvantage)?
This is important, Devs. Please listen.
I suggest you try one of two rotations:
1) Start with one ranged stack → LSS → Tab x2→ CA → Tab x2→ DS → RS → Tab → PG → GW → SB → RS → Tab
2) Start with no stacks → LSS → Tab x2→ CA → Tab x2→ DS → Tab → PG → GW → SB → Tab
Both of the above offer at least a 6% DPS increase over the standard rotation on live. The first is slightly superior, as long as your button mashing/connection allow you to get both PG and GW off inside of the LSS buff window. The second is more forgiving on the LSS buff window, but requires some amount of recovery to function seamlessly. I would argue both are still classically Trapper, not discount Combat.
All of that said, I think we can both agree that Serpent stacks are not the primary problem with Trapper. Thorned Roots are the real issue, as mentioned by several others already. Careful Attack is a secondary concern, but some changes there wouldn't hurt either.
THC
http://www.theholycrusaders.com/
Instead of messing with stillness of forest which are the only feat that define archer as a range class, they need fix the archer real issue. They could increase the buff range of each buff in the game or they could do as I suggested earlier by making archer able to gain whatever buff its party member are having as long as the member are within the archer range. That will save the developer alot trouble and without breaking pvp as party member need to be in the archer range to be able to give archer the buff.
THC
http://www.theholycrusaders.com/
This basically. Prior to the proposed Stillness of the Forest change, there's really only one viable build, which is to stack SotF+Falcon+offhandFalcon+HuntingHawk. One can't do anything else because SotF is a high end feat you have to take.
Decoupling SotF from range allows Archers to experiment with other builds.
One can still do the older ranged build. It's less effective than with old SofF and the problem remains with the Companion not attacking and party buff range.
I much prefer my older suggestion from older threads to add the Falcon Range to receiving Party and Companion attack range. But I'm gonna wait for Balance's update on his overall plan for Archery synergy.
But as I've said in my original post in this thread, he has to address two things: Mobility and Cast time of RainofArrow/SplitTheSky for Archery tree ONLY>
Archery has all the short end of the stick (horrific ability synergy):
Low Mobility + Long cast Time + Damage over time + Low Damage + Interruptibility = Low damage
GWF has all the high end of the stick (perfect ability synergy):
High Mobility(alpha strike) + insta cast + direct damage + easy buffs + high damage = High damage
Give Archers the highest base mobility in PvE so we get alpha strike and make Rain of Arrows / Split the Sky instant-cast for Archery tree.
Hasty Retreat should be completely reworked as pure speed buff, not while being hit.
Those two will make up for our low damage.
TIA
Theres no place in a action mmo for a feat that makes you stuck in the ground in order to deal damage, even worse in a game in which melee enemies close the range gap in less than a second.
With melee: I already told some devs in the past about blade storm:
When you introduced the cap of how many foes could you hit with an AoE and limited it to a max of 5, you basicly killed all the potential damage of Blade Storm, which is a class feature that increase damage as you hit more foes with a single attack, since that update, this class feature was caped too indirectly, i told devs that this class feature needed some compensation, but instead they disabled the ability of this class feature to work with Plant Growth and Gushing Wound, totally anihilating it, in this upcoming module, i saw they gave blade storm some attention, but still the powers that could use this class feature the most, can't do it. People nowadays use blade storm because there is no other option, after all 1% more damage is better than 0% damage.
And lastly:daily "Cold Steel Hurricane", in it's current state, it's just a downgraded akward Seismic Shot, i think would be cool and fun if the electric storm would behave as Orcus's pursuing spheres, dealing damage each second while snaring enemies