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M15: Hunter Ranger Class Changes

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  • hastur905hastur905 Posts: 113Member Arc User
    "While I understand your sentiment, there are nothing to stop a player from playing closer than 50'. Even without the changes to stillness of forest, player are still able to play a point blank archer by not including stillness of forest in their spec."
    You are correct, someone who plays Archer from close range (me), would not choose this feat. But neither would someone from range. To be endgame you need 100% crit chance, why would you include a feat that if you build is optimized have a variable crit chance that means you start you attacks at 85% crit chance and climb to 100% and then if you have to move have it drop below 100% again? Having variable damage, ok I get, having variable crit severity, ok, having variable power, also ok. Variable crit chance is however not good for range or close combat on an HR.
    "Archer are ironically force to play at melee. The current changes to stillness of forest does not solve the issue but instead making it worse since they remove archer incentive to play at range.

    Edit: Although its tempting, though, I wouldn't suggest to buff archer tree yet till they fix the 'archer/ party buff' issue. We don't know the potential strength of archer once they get full party buff at range.
    "
    The funny thing here is you actually contradict your own statement in less than a few inches of text. On the one hand you are arguing that Archers are forced to play at melee because of the need of party buffs, but lets not buff the Archer tree because we don't know how powerful an Archer would be if it got those buffs at range. We actually do, if you have played an Archer you would realize that right now an Archer played at range is somewhat worse than a melee Archer. However a Archer even with buffs at close range does 50% less dps than a combat.

    Your statement that HR's wait until at least 2, if not 4, other classes feat trees be arranged in such a way to eliminate the distance requirement and cooldowns inherent with there classes be done before we look at increasing the damage of an Archer is laughable.

    Fact: HR's are less buff dependent than TR's and GWF's, meaning that buffing classes do not add as much to the damage output as it does to other classes, also translates that the lack of buffing classes in party also does not decrease dps as it does other classes.

    Fact: Combat spec HR's do 50% more damage than melee Archers.

    Fact: increasing the Archer damage from the feat tree without tying it to distance improves both Ranged and Melee regardless of buffs.

    Having an Aspect, like we have that improves damage from range is really the only way to compensate for play style. Is the damage boost it gives from range compensating for not being able to partake in the buffs from melee range? Possibly, but we KNOW that the Archer is doing significantly less damage than a combat, the suggestions I made in my post would help close the gap without significantly re-writing the feat or tree for that matter. Also it would not require a rework of up to 4 other class feat trees. Put 1, 2, or 3 of my proposed changes up on test and see where we are at.

  • issssshoisssssho Posts: 105Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Why would you cry here that class is ruined ? The class is in great state at the moment excluding archery. You are outdpsed by GWF in msp as trapper ? Respec to combat. Don't want to ? Then dont complain. You dont see GWFs running around outdpsing ppl as instigator or sentinel builds.
    Archery is not easy to fix to begin with since very easily it can be overbuffed so the devs approach is rather careful - and on the other hand a dev that dont have 2000+ hours on HR can not pinpoint the problem to begin with like someone else would be able to who played the class for really long time so I advise to have patience - we will eventually get there. Its simply not realistic to expect from 1 dev to do balancing for all classes correctly when he dont even play hardcore NW with 1 class - let alone with all of them.
    With great power comes great electricity bill.

    THC
    http://www.theholycrusaders.com/
  • issssshoisssssho Posts: 105Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    No, point of my comment is different - if you read my actual feedback in one of the first comments in this thread you would have noticed the reason why trapper is not so popular anymore.
    First of all current meta =/= DnD and ways of how a class is played. DnD is tabletop game and this is actual MMORPG so you should not base your expectations on a different genre game that uses same universe as reference.
    Trapper was not nerfed over time up until now - close to nothing changed for them (also CA works on live, idk what you talk about at that part), but meta evolved over time and it pushed trapper out - why - because of the nature of damage that trappers rely on - Dot damage - you basically waste time with damage over certain time period instead of bursting it which is at the moment much more reliable source - primary reason for it being the way buffs work in this game.
    So, I'll try to simplify my statement from previous comment - you do not play trapper with expectation of topping up dps charts - if you play it, you play it as secondary dps where your buff role is primary one and damage comes narrowly after.
    That will remain same in coming mod with some slight changes to choice of feats in trapper tree and by kicking out AOTS for primal instincts and constricting arrow for hawkshot to rely on steady 68% buff value and very decent damage with it. Not as desirable as AC DC but again not useless as some other cases would be - steady in middle, perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
    With great power comes great electricity bill.

    THC
    http://www.theholycrusaders.com/
  • mechjockeymechjockey Posts: 265Member Arc User
    kangkeok said:

    hastur905 said:


    Does dps with a bow mean that you have to be 50' away? it shouldn't, a player should be able to play however they want, near or far.

    While I understand your sentiment, there are nothing to stop a player from playing closer than 50'
    Sure except the loss of self buffs : facepalm :

  • seveninchbladeseveninchblade Posts: 73Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    ...Removed misleading statement... After further testing I will eat my words. I will amend my statement to say that while the internal cooldown of Careful Attack is now applied globally as it was intended, the ways in which it may be procced are bugged. It appears that certain attacks/powers will trigger the internal cooldown without actually dealing damage. The primary offenders are Thorned Roots and companion attacks. That is a problem.
    Post edited by seveninchblade on
    Charisma was my dump stat.
  • kangkeokkangkeok Posts: 1,082Member Arc User
    edited September 2018

    kangkeok said:

    hastur905 said:


    Does dps with a bow mean that you have to be 50' away? it shouldn't, a player should be able to play however they want, near or far.

    While I understand your sentiment, there are nothing to stop a player from playing closer than 50'
    Sure except the loss of self buffs : facepalm :

    Yeah like u can have all the benefit both range and melee. I wonder who is gonna play range. There is always a short coming for a spec so pick one. If u want to use aspect of the pack, u have to drop aspect of the falcon. Well except u are able to convince your entire party to accommodate with u to stay at range.
  • mechjockeymechjockey Posts: 265Member Arc User
    kangkeok said:

    kangkeok said:

    hastur905 said:


    Does dps with a bow mean that you have to be 50' away? it shouldn't, a player should be able to play however they want, near or far.

    While I understand your sentiment, there are nothing to stop a player from playing closer than 50'
    Sure except the loss of self buffs : facepalm :

    Yeah like u can have all the benefit both range and melee. I wonder who is gonna play range. There is always a short coming for a spec so pick one.
    The problem is playing range is of no benefit and if you play melee, you get much less benefit than classes or builds that are maxxed for melee
  • kangkeokkangkeok Posts: 1,082Member Arc User
    edited September 2018

    kangkeok said:

    kangkeok said:

    hastur905 said:


    Does dps with a bow mean that you have to be 50' away? it shouldn't, a player should be able to play however they want, near or far.

    While I understand your sentiment, there are nothing to stop a player from playing closer than 50'
    Sure except the loss of self buffs : facepalm :

    Yeah like u can have all the benefit both range and melee. I wonder who is gonna play range. There is always a short coming for a spec so pick one.
    The problem is playing range is of no benefit and if you play melee, you get much less benefit than classes or builds that are maxxed for melee
    Like what?

    Edit : Wait..are u trying to pit point blank archer build against combat build? Why not compare who did better at range between hybrid ranged combat spec with pure range archer? It does not takes much common sense to know where the problem lies. Really.

    Look, there is a balance with each build. U cant have the whole world to yourself. To come out with a build, u need to make sacrifice on a benefit to gain another benefit. If there are no balance in builds, you will only see one build in HR class. Between playing a point blank archer and pure range archer ( lets leave party buff out of this since its entirely a different story), point blank archer loses self buff from Aotf & stillness of forest but gain additional 3 encounter to spam and some melee feat to utilize. Thats balance. Deal with it.
    Post edited by kangkeok on
  • strathkinstrathkin Posts: 1,221Member Arc User
    artifleur said:

    Aspect of the Serpent : What if you kept the three stacks and simply removed the "both types cannot affect you at the same time" clause? Use three encounters, get three stacks. No need to keep track of which stacks you already had that way.

    The goal is so Trapper's are regularly rotating. Not so Hybrid builds stay in one combat style and gain the damage bonus...
  • mechjockeymechjockey Posts: 265Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    kangkeok said:

    kangkeok said:

    kangkeok said:

    hastur905 said:


    Does dps with a bow mean that you have to be 50' away? it shouldn't, a player should be able to play however they want, near or far.

    While I understand your sentiment, there are nothing to stop a player from playing closer than 50'
    Sure except the loss of self buffs : facepalm :

    Yeah like u can have all the benefit both range and melee. I wonder who is gonna play range. There is always a short coming for a spec so pick one.
    The problem is playing range is of no benefit and if you play melee, you get much less benefit than classes or builds that are maxxed for melee
    Like what?
    Aspect of the falcon to start ?
    Aspect of the pack
    kangkeok said:

    kangkeok said:

    kangkeok said:

    hastur905 said:


    Does dps with a bow mean that you have to be 50' away? it shouldn't, a player should be able to play however they want, near or far.

    While I understand your sentiment, there are nothing to stop a player from playing closer than 50'
    Sure except the loss of self buffs : facepalm :

    Yeah like u can have all the benefit both range and melee. I wonder who is gonna play range. There is always a short coming for a spec so pick one.
    The problem is playing range is of no benefit and if you play melee, you get much less benefit than classes or builds that are maxxed for melee
    Like what?

    Edit : Wait..are u trying to pit point blank archer build against combat build? Why not compare who did better at range between hybrid ranged combat spec with pure range archer? It does not takes much common sense to know where the problem lies. Really.

    Look, there is a balance with each build. U cant have the whole world to yourself. To come out with a build, u need to make sacrifice on a benefit to gain another benefit. If there are no balance in builds, you will only see one build in HR class. Between playing a point blank archer and pure range archer ( lets leave party buff out of this since its entirely a different story), point blank archer loses self buff from Aotf & stillness of forest but gain additional 3 encounter to spam and some melee feat to utilize. Thats balance. Deal with it.
    I think we are still talking past each other because I still can't make head or tails of your question.

    Let me try to clarify what I said, maybe I am not doing a good job here.

    DPS classes need to provided similar levels of DPS.
    This has to be true no matter what their playstyle is.
    Balance is having the ranged archer put out similar damage at range to what a point blank archer does at point blank or a GWF does in melee.

    They do not.
    The situation as measured on test prior to the 9/29 update was such that the changes took them from bad to worse. Have not tested the current build yet. Just not feeling the enthusiasm but I am smoking a pork shoulder and my basil plant is doing well. Kind of sad that activities that are on the level of watching paint dry have become more interesting.

    You can't leave party buffs out. While you can play a fair amount of this game solo critical and very important parts are gated behind party content.

    Back to my original post the simplest way to fix pure range archers is to allow their self buffs to let them move into range of the party buffs. The same goes for abilities and companions that are based on range.

    Think of say Hawkshot against Drufi in FBI. One if you are trying to stay at max range there you are going to die in ice. Two if you are not at max range but close to Drufi Hawkshot is kind of pathetic. The question is what do you want to replace it with ? Split the sky ? That will get you kicked before you can blink, Thornward ? Enjoy it when it decides to attack the ice, well you get the picture I am sure.



  • zerappuszerappus Posts: 92Member Arc User
    Preliminary test on new Stillness of the Forest: (note, it's hard to test/experiment on completely new builds in Preview due to lack of resources, ie. cube of aumentation, new companions etc.).

    First, it's good to be liberated from ALWAYS checking if you're at the bare minimum distance to get the bonus. Now, it's shifted to getting a feel of stack build-ups. But at least it's not an On/Off switch.

    In terms of stacks itself, It's hard to build up stacks when always on the move AND dodging. The damage bonus has to be 3.5% at least per stack and/or graduated (such as s1=+6%, s2=5%, s3=+4%, s4=+3%, s5=+2%, s6=+1%) so movement is less punishing (archery is about mobility).

    The change also give credence to the need of Hasty Retreat rework. The bonus has to be flat speed bonus active at all times, and not just 5%, give us something like 15%. This allows the archer to move faster and set up position quickly to build up stacks. And also due to our low damage, long cast, DOT encounters, we can attack first.

    Bug: Stillness of the Forest stacks don't regenerate while moving Out of Combat. It should regenerate at all times while out of combat even when moving (mounted or not mounted).

    Finally, @balanced#2849, set up PvE archery first. When it's set up, then make adjustments for PvP Archery. Neverwinter is like a 99% PvE game. You're fully gimping PvE archery for the nominal 1% PvPers? NW Developers don't want to make positive changes to archery in PvE (such as speed or fully synergized long-ranged build) because it will be OP in PvP.

    In older PvP mmos, PvP balance is set up first, before PvE. But those are PvP centric MMOs. In those mmos, they basicaly make players hit like 5x harder in PvE. NW though is ridiculously convoluted.

    TIA





  • wdj40wdj40 Posts: 1,954Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    strathkin said:

    artifleur said:

    Aspect of the Serpent : What if you kept the three stacks and simply removed the "both types cannot affect you at the same time" clause? Use three encounters, get three stacks. No need to keep track of which stacks you already had that way.

    The goal is so Trapper's are regularly rotating. Not so Hybrid builds stay in one combat style and gain the damage bonus...
    You are not reading his post properly.

    The goal is, and this is directly from the original post by the Dev, to have 3 stacks of AotS... then use 3 Encounters and 1 At-Will to be maximised for the opposite stacks of AotS before switching.

    But the reality is the Dev does not know how Aspect of the Serpent works in the 1st place. It takes 4 attacks NOW to go from 2 stacks to the opposite 2 stacks.... this is due to not being able to have both stacks of AotS effect you at the same time. If the proposed changes to AotS go ahead and we have 3 stacks, they should remove the both stacks effect you aspect aswell. This way AotS could work EXACTLY like the Dev wanted it to in the 1st place... 3 Encounters and 1 At-Will would get you max stacks of the opposite AotS.

    This is what the Dev wants and this would make the Trapper a much more effective class/paragon... They just dont know or realise their mistake yet and could instead destroy the Trapper off. I know if Stillness is taken away from my PvP Archer and AotS ruined for my PvE Trapper I wont even bother playing next Mod. I dont like to play combat at all.
    Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only
    Alts :
    Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)

    Member of Q-Snipe
  • raisinghelllraisinghelll Posts: 19Member Arc User
    Any opionions on allowing plant growth to hit more than 5 targets? I believe constricting's roots also have a target cap (correct me if I'm wrong) Maybe make this (PG target cap) exclusively an additional bonus on aTrapper feat? I feel like having a limited number of targets really hurts the DPS, along with the buffs not scaling. They stepped in the right direction by increasing the range of the roots, having a higher chance of hitting more targets is definitely needed.

    Another possible solution is to change the way Thorned roots damage is determined. Rather than depending on weapon damage, give it a base Damage percentage.

    Example: thorned roots deals 50% of the damage of the rooting attack. 60/70/80/90% damage with each upgrade. Control immune targets receive 100% etc.

    This would fix the scaling issue aswell.

    As it sits right now, Trapper is great for low level mobs, but newer content is making it harder to compete. Running LS, CA, and CoA Stacking buffs and nailing the rotation just to keep up in DPS, you're bound to make a mistake that changes the tide of your consistent damage. its quite a strain for damage that a class like the GwF would do with weapon master strike.
  • artifleurartifleur Posts: 640Member Arc User
    Target caps don't make any sense, just like range cap on party buffs or bound-to-character items but the developement team have insisted on keeping these unnecessary aspects for so long that I wouldn't expect them to change their mind any time soon.
  • thatsmeaswellthatsmeaswell Posts: 60Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    stacks of stillness of the forest are completely removed sometimes whem using disruptive shot. Could not reliably reproduce the issue, sometimes everything is fine then the 6 stacks are suddenly removed immediately after disruptive shot and sometimes just after moving one step forward after disruptive shot
  • kangkeokkangkeok Posts: 1,082Member Arc User

    DPS classes need to provided similar levels of DPS.
    This has to be true no matter what their playstyle is.
    Balance is having the ranged archer put out similar damage at range to what a point blank archer does at point blank or a GWF does in melee.

    They do not.
    The situation as measured on test prior to the 9/29 update was such that the changes took them from bad to worse.

    That is what people in this thread are trying to solve here. I m glad that u agree on how the balance should work. But what amazed me are u start suggest things like,


    ... the simplest way to fix pure range archers is to allow their self buffs to let them move into range of the party buffs. The same goes for abilities and companions that are based on range.

    Isnt that the problem range archery are facing now that archer are force into melee to gain party buff? Now to move their self buff into party buff range, doesnt that make it worse? Doesn't that contradict on what u said earlier on " Balance is having the ranged archer put out similar damage at range to what a point blank archer does at point blank or a GWF does in melee" ? Maybe my English is bad here. Can anyone here explain to me what he is trying to say?

  • mechjockeymechjockey Posts: 265Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    kangkeok said:

    DPS classes need to provided similar levels of DPS.
    This has to be true no matter what their playstyle is.
    Balance is having the ranged archer put out similar damage at range to what a point blank archer does at point blank or a GWF does in melee.

    They do not.
    The situation as measured on test prior to the 9/29 update was such that the changes took them from bad to worse.

    That is what people in this thread are trying to solve here. I m glad that u agree on how the balance should work. But what amazed me are u start suggest things like,


    ... the simplest way to fix pure range archers is to allow their self buffs to let them move into range of the party buffs. The same goes for abilities and companions that are based on range.

    Isnt that the problem range archery are facing now that archer are force into melee to gain party buff? Now to move their self buff into party buff range, doesnt that make it worse? Doesn't that contradict on what u said earlier on " Balance is having the ranged archer put out similar damage at range to what a point blank archer does at point blank or a GWF does in melee" ? Maybe my English is bad here. Can anyone here explain to me what he is trying to say?

    Ahh there's the problem we have had, being closer isn't being right next to the boss. Being close enough to pick up some of the bigger buffs would be most welcome. Faster cast time on commanding shot (should have a time normalized dps no worse than aimed shot) as well but that's another story.
  • fejkz0r123fejkz0r123 Posts: 1Member Arc User
    Please don't do this to Aspect of Serpent, it is fine in the way it is, you are just making it worse with this so called "buff". Me as a Trapper I used 3 encounters in ranged then switch to melee, then I use 3 encounters and 1 at-will to get my stacks at max for ranged stance. But with the change we need 3 encounters in ranged then switch to melee, then 3 encounters and 3 atwills to get back at full stacks for ranged stance and that really kills our Damage Per Second. Please let it be like it is now, or find another way to buff it.
  • monokherosmonokheros Posts: 36Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Thank you for the changes to HR they look appropriate.

    Stormstep getting returned is nice now if you would do something about the completely USELESS CSH.... daily.....

    as far as companions are concerned for Archery build. maybe my fellow HR would learn to play their Meta and not everyone elses . i have stated n no one listened so i will continue to out DPS HR with 2k more IL then i.

    have fun!
  • lunartic666lunartic666 Posts: 32Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    jonkoca said:

    annoying stunbuilds with lousy damage, or crappy survival, crappy damage combat huilds... which no-one would want on their pvp team.

    Disagree here, trapper build in pvp have decent dmg, and it's the best team oriented spec cause of the control aspect. Combat lost alot with the piercing blade nerf, but this has to be done - no piercing in pvp please.
    I agree that every hr spec need huge survivability boost in pvp, we are squishy class that have to fight (cause of the pvp system in nw) at certain area which is node.
    So here, and i talk about it in my previous post, rework just 2 powers: fox cunning, and boar hide, make them flat surv boost for 10 sec or something like that.
    I'm not going to talk about archery cause i don't play it in pvp, i also want to ask you to stop giving wrong feedback about specs you don't play usually, be advocate to your favourite playstyle.
    jonkoca said:


    Better runspeed.
    A fix for careful attack.
    A cc break.
    Better dodges.

    Yes, please. The first 3 is a must. Dodges are already fixed, i don't see any reason to make dodges longer i personally like the short-tactical dodge, but:
    Increase base stamina gain. We already have some stamina recovery options as pvp hrs but more won't hurt anyone.

    To anyone just please remember that pvp in this game still exist, and there are even few hunters in it, please think about that and make sure that your proposed changes won't ruin this aspect of the game for hrs (and other classes). Seriously consider this, becouse nobody get hurt if if you gonna do 5mil more or less dps in dungeon, while being killed or killing to much in pvp is at least frustrating for one of the side.

    Thanks for reading.
  • issssshoisssssho Posts: 105Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited September 2018
    @jonkoca with all due respect - you want to compare a dps HR to a dps GWF - that does not work that way. Why ? because 14-15k GWF will destroy 14-15k HR, while 18k HR will destroy 18k GWF.
    Reasons for that are rather simple - not all classes reach their peak of effectiveness at same level of gear. After certain point some classes are softcapped on return in damage compared to gear - while others - specially combat hr in this case - reach their absolute best only when they are very near bis items. Again only in that case they become quite broken and unfollowable by others on the dps charts (if those charts mean anything to begin with).
    For all others who are skeptical of my statement - use dex + cha neck, reroll to max dex cha spec then use skirmishers gambit feat and check how much crit stats you need for 100% crit chance compared to some other class - only there you will begin to notice what am I talking about.
    With great power comes great electricity bill.

    THC
    http://www.theholycrusaders.com/
  • feanor70118feanor70118 Posts: 1,106Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    isssssho said:

    @jonkoca with all due respect - you want to compare a dps HR to a dps GWF - that does not work that way. Why ? because 14-15k GWF will destroy 14-15k HR, while 18k HR will destroy 18k GWF.
    Reasons for that are rather simple - not all classes reach their peak of effectiveness at same level of gear. After certain point some classes are softcapped on return in damage compared to gear - while others - specially combat hr in this case - reach their absolute best only when they are very near bis items. Again only in that case they become quite broken and unfollowable by others on the dps charts (if those charts mean anything to begin with).
    For all others who are skeptical of my statement - use dex + cha neck, reroll to max dex cha spec then use skirmishers gambit feat and check how much crit stats you need for 100% crit chance compared to some other class - only there you will begin to notice what am I talking about.

    Or you could not give up your other stats and bonuses to wear a 405 IL cloak...
  • mechjockeymechjockey Posts: 265Member Arc User
    edited September 2018

    isssssho said:

    @jonkoca with all due respect - you want to compare a dps HR to a dps GWF - that does not work that way. Why ? because 14-15k GWF will destroy 14-15k HR, while 18k HR will destroy 18k GWF.
    Reasons for that are rather simple - not all classes reach their peak of effectiveness at same level of gear. After certain point some classes are softcapped on return in damage compared to gear - while others - specially combat hr in this case - reach their absolute best only when they are very near bis items. Again only in that case they become quite broken and unfollowable by others on the dps charts (if those charts mean anything to begin with).
    For all others who are skeptical of my statement - use dex + cha neck, reroll to max dex cha spec then use skirmishers gambit feat and check how much crit stats you need for 100% crit chance compared to some other class - only there you will begin to notice what am I talking about.

    Or you could not give up your other stats and bonuses to wear a 405 IL cloak...
    A point that can't be repeated too often, higher IL doesn't necessarily mean better. *cough*Boons vs Gear *cough*

  • feanor70118feanor70118 Posts: 1,106Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited October 2018

    isssssho said:

    @jonkoca with all due respect - you want to compare a dps HR to a dps GWF - that does not work that way. Why ? because 14-15k GWF will destroy 14-15k HR, while 18k HR will destroy 18k GWF.
    Reasons for that are rather simple - not all classes reach their peak of effectiveness at same level of gear. After certain point some classes are softcapped on return in damage compared to gear - while others - specially combat hr in this case - reach their absolute best only when they are very near bis items. Again only in that case they become quite broken and unfollowable by others on the dps charts (if those charts mean anything to begin with).
    For all others who are skeptical of my statement - use dex + cha neck, reroll to max dex cha spec then use skirmishers gambit feat and check how much crit stats you need for 100% crit chance compared to some other class - only there you will begin to notice what am I talking about.

    Or you could not give up your other stats and bonuses to wear a 405 IL cloak...
    A point that can't be repeated too often, higher IL doesn't necessarily mean better. *cough*Boons vs Gear *cough*

    No kidding. And 2% companion stats isn't worth giving up 1500 recovery , 2.5% RI and 3.5% crit chance depending on how else you're specced. Not to mention that unless you have your companion loaded with azure enchantments, the idea of giving up 15% of your crit chance (i.e. 6000 crit) by moving your ability scores from WIS to CHA and taking Skirmisher's Gambit isn't all that bright. The crit chance penalty should have been written out of SG years ago. So the answer to the question of how much crit it takes to reach 100% is.....6000 more than it would be without making those changes. If you can get it from party buffs, great, but in a 5-person raid in the RAQ where you end up 2-manning Drufi with a tank, you won't see a lot of orange numbers. Fewer if your companion dies permanently, and you sensibly chose to make all of your offensive enchants in your companion are azure so that your binding stones will get you cloe to 100% crit half the time.

    Long story short, the idea that a company executioner cloak is that magic wand to turn a lagging DPS class into the best is just silly.
    Post edited by feanor70118 on
  • jonkocajonkoca Posts: 2,532Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    isssssho said:

    @jonkoca with all due respect - you want to compare a dps HR to a dps GWF - that does not work that way. Why ? because 14-15k GWF will destroy 14-15k HR, while 18k HR will destroy 18k GWF.
    Reasons for that are rather simple - not all classes reach their peak of effectiveness at same level of gear. After certain point some classes are softcapped on return in damage compared to gear - while others - specially combat hr in this case - reach their absolute best only when they are very near bis items. Again only in that case they become quite broken and unfollowable by others on the dps charts (if those charts mean anything to begin with).
    For all others who are skeptical of my statement - use dex + cha neck, reroll to max dex cha spec then use skirmishers gambit feat and check how much crit stats you need for 100% crit chance compared to some other class - only there you will begin to notice what am I talking about.

    Hi issho, fair enough, trouble with that though is... how many 18k HRs are there..? And how many people coming into the game are ever going to put the time into creating an 18k HR..? It should be the other way round. A 14-15k HR should be able to keep pace with a similar gwf, and they should both even out at 18k. We shouldn't have to slog through 17k's worth of fruatration and disappointment just to finally win out at the rarified heights of BISdom.

    @lunartic666,

    Ok, I'll rectify with a few caveats, trapper stunbot builds have crappy damage compared to other similar IL classes in pvp, and the permastun build is so annoying it puts other people off playing. It's a troll build, adopted from desperation on the part of mid-level HRs in pvp. "Team orientated" means "no good alone", to the point where I have watched top trapper pvp toons do nothing in matches except follow another dps toon around and stun the HAMSTER out of that toon's victims.
    No idea what my toon is now.
  • sandfox#5862 sandfox Posts: 58Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    TLDR - 1) have Stillness grant a flat Crit/dmg buff, or 2) have Stillness build stacks off of ranged attacks similar to Battle Crazed

    -------------

    90% of this thread is trolling/insulting/pointless arguments about personal opinion. Other classes have received dev feedback because the threads were focused, to-the-point, clear, and productive, with specific goals. Let's aim for that.

    Class Balance

    Classes can be balanced in two ways: 1) making them equivalent (e.g. equal dps) 2) giving them unique roles that are equally valuable in the meta.

    PvE

    Archers do not do equivalent DPS to other dps classes in PvE. They also don't have role that makes them unique, as any other DPS class could replace them.

    Proposed balance solution is approach #1: change Stillness of the Forest to let Archers get party buffs by fighting in melee range, as long as they don't move.

    The problems with this:

    - It breaks synergy with other ranged features (Aspect of the Falcon, Hawkshot, Hunting Hawk, etc...)
    - It works against the main reason people choose to play an Archer in the first place, which is to be at range and snipe from distance. It forces Archers to be close, and significantly penalizes them at range.
    - Archers need movement to survive and for correct positioning (e.g. Seeker's Vengeance).
    - Without party buffs, the proposed fix is actually a DPS nerf. Solo PvE and PvP players are especially screwed. Why is it a nerf?

    Let's look at what happens in Mod 15 without party buffs if we stand still and don't move, in comparison to what we have already:

    0 stacks / 0 seconds: -25% Crit, -10% dmg

    4 stacks / 4 seconds: -15% Crit, +0% dmg

    5 stacks / 5 seconds: -12.5% Crit, +2.5% dmg

    6 stacks / 6 seconds: -10% Crit, +5% dmg

    Even at max stacks, the -10% Crit offsets the +5% dmg, decreasing overall DPS in most scenarios. Anything lower than 5 stacks is a significant decrease in DPS with no buffs at all to offset those losses. In short, without party buffs we would need to maintain near-constant max stacks to do even less dmg than we can do now.

    This assumes that the stacks actually build correctly. If there are bugs that reset stacks, as is reported on now on preview, then it would be even worse.

    PvP

    Ideally, class changes should balance both PvE and in PvP.

    Currently, in PvP, Archers have a useful role as a DPS class getting kills at range. Survivability is poor, so being at range + stealth + movement is essential to survival.

    In PvP, between dodging attacks and evasion/stealth/repositioning during combat, we'll rarely see stacks of Stillness of the Forest build significantly. Also, rotating between caps is going to reset any stacks built.

    The only "advantage" to this change is that you can gain stacks at close range. But this requires you to stay still, so no dodging or moving, which is not a viable option in a close range PvP scenario, especially for a squishy Archer.

    Essentially, PvP Archery is effectively getting a huge nerf of -25% Crit and -10% dmg. This effectively removes HR Archers from the only useful role they had, which was PvP ranged dps. That's not what class balancing is supposed to do.

    Alternative Ideas

    We need to find a way to get Archers party buffs that: 1) has synergy with ranged powers like Hawkshot; 2) allows Archers to stay at distance and actually play a ranged class; 3) allows Archers to dodge and move without penalty; 4) doesn't nerf PvP Archers or Solo PvE Archers.

    Getting "all party buffs" inside the Archer's max attack range would be an ideal solution, but that's a huge request that doesn't consider the nuances of each individual power. There are a lot of buffs in the game. I personally don't think it's practical from a programming standpoint for the devs to go in and modify other class's buff powers to accommodate us. They're just not going to do it. It also might introduce bugs and unexpected gameplay issues.

    We might have a shot at going in that direction if we got specific about which buffs we actually need. If we can identify exactly which buffs are essential, then maybe we can see if those specific changes are possible.

    A much easier way to accomplish the above goals would be to either: 1) have Stillness grant a flat Crit/dmg buff, or 2) have Stillness build stacks off of ranged attacks similar to Battle Crazed

    This isn't as good as giving Archers party buffs at range, but it would be an easy change from a programming standpoint that allows Archers to stand close for PvE dungeons to get buffs while allowing movement, and it doesn't nerf PvP and solo PvE players.

    If you agree with this solution, don't forget to hit the "agree" button below.

  • patcherrkmpatcherrkm Posts: 127Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Honestly Im surprised there isnt an archery feat that lets archers fire on the move. Instead they went with rooting archers in place? come on devs, give archers mobility and let them shooting arrows while on the run!
  • lunartic666lunartic666 Posts: 32Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    jonkoca said:

    Ok, I'll rectify with a few caveats, trapper stunbot builds have crappy damage compared to other similar IL classes in pvp, and the permastun build is so annoying it puts other people off playing. It's a troll build, adopted from desperation on the part of mid-level HRs in pvp. "Team orientated" means "no good alone", to the point where I have watched top trapper pvp toons do nothing in matches except follow another dps toon around and stun the HAMSTER out of that toon's victims.

    This means exactly: 'i don't like trappers because they have too easy to counter my archery'
    Troll build? Any build that kill my toon is troll build.
    Crappy dmg? Trapper is combo of DECENT dmg and control. You want every toon in pvp to have dmg of tr? or gf?
    Team orientated? Show me your archery do better alone than my trapper build. You won't cause it's impossible. Also show me 'another dps toon' killing rooted target and then not rooted, you'll see teamwork.
    That is just my little respond.

    Nevermind. Both me and @jonkoca are asking for survivability buff in pvp, nothing more is needed for this part of game.
    Btw. i asked to rework [crushing roots] and make them debuff instead of daze, but you are blinded by emotions and propably missed that.

    And once again i want to ask for not giving misleading information about certain specs/builds, or we never gonna get even close to balanced state of pvp. Thats all for now, waiting for another anti-stunbot post. Or maybe some objective post, who knows.

  • kangkeokkangkeok Posts: 1,082Member Arc User
    edited October 2018

    TLDR - 1) have Stillness grant a flat Crit/dmg buff, or 2) have Stillness build stacks off of ranged attacks similar to Battle Crazed

    -------------

    90% of this thread is trolling/insulting/pointless arguments about personal opinion. Other classes have received dev feedback because the threads were focused, to-the-point, clear, and productive, with specific goals. Let's aim for that.

    Class Balance

    Classes can be balanced in two ways: 1) making them equivalent (e.g. equal dps) 2) giving them unique roles that are equally valuable in the meta.

    PvE

    Archers do not do equivalent DPS to other dps classes in PvE. They also don't have role that makes them unique, as any other DPS class could replace them.

    Proposed balance solution is approach #1: change Stillness of the Forest to let Archers get party buffs by fighting in melee range, as long as they don't move.

    The problems with this:

    - It breaks synergy with other ranged features (Aspect of the Falcon, Hawkshot, Hunting Hawk, etc...)
    - It works against the main reason people choose to play an Archer in the first place, which is to be at range and snipe from distance. It forces Archers to be close, and significantly penalizes them at range.
    - Archers need movement to survive and for correct positioning (e.g. Seeker's Vengeance).
    - Without party buffs, the proposed fix is actually a DPS nerf. Solo PvE and PvP players are especially screwed. Why is it a nerf?

    Let's look at what happens in Mod 15 without party buffs if we stand still and don't move, in comparison to what we have already:

    0 stacks / 0 seconds: -25% Crit, -10% dmg

    4 stacks / 4 seconds: -15% Crit, +0% dmg

    5 stacks / 5 seconds: -12.5% Crit, +2.5% dmg

    6 stacks / 6 seconds: -10% Crit, +5% dmg

    Even at max stacks, the -10% Crit offsets the +5% dmg, decreasing overall DPS in most scenarios. Anything lower than 5 stacks is a significant decrease in DPS with no buffs at all to offset those losses. In short, without party buffs we would need to maintain near-constant max stacks to do even less dmg than we can do now.

    This assumes that the stacks actually build correctly. If there are bugs that reset stacks, as is reported on now on preview, then it would be even worse.

    PvP

    Ideally, class changes should balance both PvE and in PvP.

    Currently, in PvP, Archers have a useful role as a DPS class getting kills at range. Survivability is poor, so being at range + stealth + movement is essential to survival.

    In PvP, between dodging attacks and evasion/stealth/repositioning during combat, we'll rarely see stacks of Stillness of the Forest build significantly. Also, rotating between caps is going to reset any stacks built.

    The only "advantage" to this change is that you can gain stacks at close range. But this requires you to stay still, so no dodging or moving, which is not a viable option in a close range PvP scenario, especially for a squishy Archer.

    Essentially, PvP Archery is effectively getting a huge nerf of -25% Crit and -10% dmg. This effectively removes HR Archers from the only useful role they had, which was PvP ranged dps. That's not what class balancing is supposed to do.

    Alternative Ideas

    We need to find a way to get Archers party buffs that: 1) has synergy with ranged powers like Hawkshot; 2) allows Archers to stay at distance and actually play a ranged class; 3) allows Archers to dodge and move without penalty; 4) doesn't nerf PvP Archers or Solo PvE Archers.

    Getting "all party buffs" inside the Archer's max attack range would be an ideal solution, but that's a huge request that doesn't consider the nuances of each individual power. There are a lot of buffs in the game. I personally don't think it's practical from a programming standpoint for the devs to go in and modify other class's buff powers to accommodate us. They're just not going to do it. It also might introduce bugs and unexpected gameplay issues.

    We might have a shot at going in that direction if we got specific about which buffs we actually need. If we can identify exactly which buffs are essential, then maybe we can see if those specific changes are possible.

    A much easier way to accomplish the above goals would be to either: 1) have Stillness grant a flat Crit/dmg buff, or 2) have Stillness build stacks off of ranged attacks similar to Battle Crazed

    This isn't as good as giving Archers party buffs at range, but it would be an easy change from a programming standpoint that allows Archers to stand close for PvE dungeons to get buffs while allowing movement, and it doesn't nerf PvP and solo PvE players.

    If you agree with this solution, don't forget to hit the "agree" button below.

    Thanks for summarise all the problem archer are facing both in pvp & pve. They are all on point. Though I would have agree with all u write except that I m not quite clear with the solution you proposed at the end.

    Anyway, another more simple way to do this, IMO, is to standardized all buff range in this game to act like Knight Valor buff from guardian fighter class. I know KV is the only buff that is reaching me effectively when I played at range. Its range is the most appropriate and it wont break the game as u wont get the buff if there are obstacle like wall or a pillar in between. Its the best buff range mechanic in this game and most importantly the code are already there. If buff in this game are to standardized into using this mechanic, then that would solve archer main problem too. I believe Terrifying insight from DC class uses the same mechanic when they last change it. I could say it is pretty much appreciated by all range archer player in this game.

    Frankly, there is absolutely no need to touch stillness of forest despite of the complain by certain people that wanna abuse it. Its 25' trigger point is what keeping people from being in melee range in order to use melee encounter. If u look at it from a balance perspective, sacrificing the use of 3 melee encounter in exchange for 25% cit and 10% dmg if at max range are quite fair. Also it does not prevent people from making a hybrid archer + combat build as it is the only feat in archery tree with such trigger point and could be drop in exchange for melee feat.

    Stillness of forest are actually in a fine spot and are actually keeping the balance between playing archer melee and range. If the 25' trigger point is removed and without the max distance scalling, giving the 25% crit and 10% damage buff for free, people are going to play archer at melee, even without the party buff issue, just because they are able to dish out extra melee encounter. That goes the same way with power like, aspect of falcon, hawkshot & hunting hawk. People just want those self buff without caring to sacrifice anything in return. 25' trigger point and max distance scalling are the key function that keep the balance. Removing it will leave archer no reason to play at distance. Sorry for the long text but I hope u see what I m trying to say.
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