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M15: Hunter Ranger Class Changes

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  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 3,054Member Arc User
    edited September 2018

    Hey Hunter Rangers,

    builds that switch stances often.

    Finally, we wanted to touch up some class features in Pathfinder as most of them weren’t being used, or were being used in very specific situations. Two of them have been slightly revamped so that they can be stronger in end-game content, but probably won’t end up replacing your heavy hitting features. The other will increase the effectiveness of your animal-based buffs and should offer a more unique build to help your team.

    Actually, we were able to get one more fix in and that would be for the shift power. We saw that it was consistently breaking when trying to dodge things so we adjusted the immunity frames to start more near the beginning of the animation.

    Baseline:

    • Shift: There should no longer be a delay before the “Dodge” effect kicks in
    • Weak Grasping Roots: Duration increased to 1.5 seconds (up from 1)
    • Strong Grasping Roots: Duration increased to 3 seconds (up from 2)

    Encounters:

    • Constricting Arrow: Grasping Root range increased to 12’ (up from 10’)
    • Hawkshot: Base damage reduced by 50%
    • Hawkshot: Damage dealt based on range has been adjusted / reworked
      • Now grants between 1.33-2.00x damage based on range (up from 0.5-1.5x)
    • Hawkshot: Should no longer keep you locked into the animation for a small period of time after being used
    • Plant Growth: Root duration reduced to 10 seconds (down from 20 seconds)
    • Plant Growth: Root duration reduced to 5 seconds against players (down from 10 seconds)

    Buff revamp for HR:

    • All Buffs: Companions can no longer benefit from these powers
    • All Buffs: Now affects up to 5 targets, (excluding yourself) at rank 1
    • All Buffs: No longer increases the amount of allies affected per rank
    • All Buffs: No longer requires allies to be in your party
    • All Buffs: No longer half as effective for allies
    • Boar Hide (Revamped): Grants you, and nearby allies, 5 stacks of “Thick Skin” which increases your damage resistance by 4% per stack. Taking damage removes a single stack.
    • Boar Hide: Now reduces the cooldown of Boar Hide by 1 sec / rank
    • Hawkeye (Revamped): Grants you, and nearby allies, “Hawkeye” for 5 seconds. “Hawkeye” increases the damage you deal with encounter powers by 5% (down from 15%).
    • Hawkeye: Now increases the effectiveness of the buff by 2.5% per rank
    • Oak Skin (Revamped): Enhances yourself, as well as nearby allies, with “Oaken Skin” for 9 seconds. “Oaken Skin” heals you for 9% of your maximum hit points over its duration and increases your incoming healing by 10% while active.
    • Oak Skin: Increases the percent of hit points healed by 3% per rank
    • Stag Heart (Revamped): Grants you, and nearby allies, “Stag Heart” for 5 seconds. “Stag Heart” grants you 7.5% of your maximum hit points as temporary health
    • Stag Heart: Now increases the amount of Temp Health gained by 2.5% per rank
    • Fox's Cunning (Revamped): Duration reduced to 8 seconds (down from 12 seconds)
    • Fox's Cunning: Base Cooldown increased to 22 seconds (up from 20)
    • Fox's Cunning: Now reduces the cooldown of Fox's Cunning by 2 second per rank (rather than 3 seconds at rank 4
    • Aspect of the Serpent (Revamped): Damage reduced to 2.5% per stack (down from 3%)
    • Aspect of the Serpent: Damage per rank reduced to 2.5% per stack (down from 3%)
    • Aspect of the Serpent: Maximum Stacks increased to 3 (up from 2)

    Stormwarden:

    • Bladestorm (Revamp): Chance reduced to 20% (down from 25%)
    • Bladestorm: Damage increased to 16% at rank 1 (up from 5%)
    • Bladestorm: Damage increased to 8% at each rank (up from 5%)
    • Bladestorm: Artifact off-hand bonus: Now states that it increases the total damage done by Bladestorm by 10%
    • Bladestorm: This class feature should no longer be double mitigated by level 73 enemies
    • Twin Blade Storm: Damage increased to 5% at rank 1 (up from 4%)
    • Twin Blade Storm: Damage increased to 5% per rank (up from 4%)
    • Stormstep Action (Revamp): Now reduces the cooldown of encounters based on AP spent
      • Up to 2 seconds off at 100% AP spent
    • Stormstep Action: Cooldown Reduction increased to 2 seconds at rank 1 (up from 1 second)
    • Stormstep Action: Cooldown Reduction increased to 1 second for each rank-up (up from 0.5 seconds)
    • Stormstep Action: No longer has reduced value if triggered multiple times within 10 seconds.

    Pathfinder:

    • Pathfinder's Action: Run Speed increased to 10% at rank 1 (up from 6%)
    • Pathfinder's Action: Deflection chance increased to 10% at rank 1 (up from 5%)
    • Pathfinder's Action: Run speed per rank-up reduced to 5% (down from 6%)
    • Battlehoned (Completely Reworked): Replaced with “Primal Instincts"
    • Primal Instincts: Now increases the effectiveness of Boar Hide, Hawkeye, Oak Skin, and Stag Heart by 20% (+10% per rank). and Fox's Cunning's duration by the same amount
    • Primal Instincts (Artifact Power): Now increases Regen rating by 500 (up from 100)
    • Cruel Recovery (Reworked): Duration changed to 10 seconds at all ranks (from +4 seconds per rank)
    • Cruel Recovery: No longer increases effect duration at each rank
    • Cruel Recovery: Now stacks up to 4 times
    • Cruel Recovery: Maximum Stack Count increased by 2 at each rank

    Feats:

    Archery:

    • Bottomless Quiver: Tooltip changed to state “Your Ranged powers recharge X% faster” (functionality unchanged)
    • Bottomless Quiver: Recharge speed increased to 8/16/24/32/40% (up from 6/12/18/24/30%)
    • Stillness of the Forest (Reworked): Now increases your damage dealt and crit chance by 0.5/1/1.5/2/2.5% for each second that you stand still, stacking up to 6 times. You will lose 1 stack per second while moving. Stacks are not lost while out of combat.
    • Predator (Reworked): Using a ranged encounter power applies "Prey" to the first target hit for 10 seconds. You deal 20% increased damage to the first target hit by your powers and this bonus is doubled for targets affected by Prey. Prey may only be active on one target at a time and cannot be reapplied until it expires.
    • Predator: Now correctly increases the damage you deal to an enemy (Rather than decrease the enemy's damage resistance for your attacks)
    • Predator: This feat is no longer half as effective on players

    Trapper:

    • Ancient Roots: Weak Grasping Roots duration lowered to .4/.8/1.2/1.6/2 (from .5/1/1.5/2/2.5)
    • Ancient Roots: Strong Grasping Roots duration lowered to .8/1.6/2.4/3.2/4 (from 1/2/3/4/5)
    "Hunter Ranger has had some adjustments in the past and, while they are in a fairly good state, there are still some improvements that we wanted to make. In this update, we primarily focused on creating a more viable Archery build as well as some minor buffs to encounter powers that we expect to be used in that build. "

    Ok this is laughable. Actually this is SOOOO SAAAD. I was pugging spellplague Cavern Master (or trying to) and my ilvl is 15.5 k and I was doing less than half the damage that a 13k ilv gwf was doing and it didn't matter whether I was in melee or archer stance, and I switched from combat to trapper and back again and my damage happened to be better in combat loadout. The truth of the matter is that HR is pretty much useless in any group and it is impossible to solo CR, Svardborg, SCM, FBI or any endgame dungeon/skirmish. So your "fixes" are actually making HR more ineffective than it is currently. COA is pretty much my big damage skill in archer or melee but you want to decrease the the hold time in pve so I will be less useful in a group and will die more often as I solo since you already don't give the HR much defense, and who, in their right mind is going to pick up oaken shield or bark shield and give up a slot for a skill that does damage? You don't give passives like that to other classes and HR only has 3 places to put skills unlike other classes that have tab and shift for skills. oh yeah, H I don't play PVP, basically only pve so I guess, like so many others I will be looking for a new game that actually appreciates archers
    What you described did happen to me when I tried to go back to trapper for an afternoon. trapper is in a bad place. Combat isn't. I have been dps in cr tong and codg and done well. all dungeons below that I can solo dps EASILY. Even with a non min maxed enchant spread because I min maxed my do and gave my hr the left overs. I've still paid attention to arpen and crit. I'm guessing if this is a complaint you have and you were playing as combat, you're not built properly, or not doing your rotations properly or you don't have enough arpen or crit or something. or maybe you were dead half the time on the boss levels and the gwf survived longer. you say it was a pug did you have to reset on the bosses more than once?.

    I am not one of the best hr's out there. yes other dps can do more damage than me. if I am head to head with a few other classes they'll probably come out on top by a bit. but if I am the only dps I still have enough dps to get thru the content without difficulty and only a few minutes slower than one of the currently better dps types.

    xbox guild

    Main toons
    Tiberius Rex SW Combat hr 17.4k
    Rincewind CW 18k


    PC imaginary friends special events only

  • xssplater#6189 xssplater Posts: 1Member Arc User
    A good solution would be to give our Hunter a pet that would stand next to the enemies/party and just pretend that he is fighting, but his main task would be to get the buffs from the group and transfer them to the hero.
    Ghost wolf, bear, deer or eagle, for example. And it's even better to choose.
  • lunartic666lunartic666 Posts: 32Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    pvp trapper here, i believe only one left on pc, gonna throw few ideas how to improve (imo) pvp hr and not make it broken at same time.
    Sure we need dmg and i think right now every tree have decent dmg, archery have most, and then combat and trapper are equal, ofc trapper have easy time to deal dmg cause of huge control ability.
    Here starts the problem cause trapper control is just overpowered when facing certain classes. My idea is to rework [Crushing Roots], take away daze from it and change into defense debuff that stack at some value, at same time rework [Trapper's Cunning] feat to proc from every crit we deal like dots, not only on power activation. In that case trapper stay without any daze from encounters, just throw little stun in [Hindering Shot] and it's fixed. Last thing is to rework weak grasping roots to make them apply slow effect. That changes could aslo make trapper very good pve debuffer if the value of debuff will be high enough.
    Combat HR have almost everything it needs. Almost. Single target atwill needed, i would like to see [Rapid Strike] buffed, full combo should have dmg of 3rd strike of the combo, also [Aimed Strike] could have it's casting time reduced.
    Archery? Idk. I don't play it.
    About powers.
    [Fox Shift] will just fail i character isn't facing target, should rush in direction of player's camera
    [Fox Cunning] seriously? 1 dodge? this can be removed by single reflect or small dot in pvp, just add some 10 sec buff, could be anything (stamina regen, deflect, deflect severity, whatever)
    [Boar Hide] again 5 stacks that are removed in split second in pvp, let's say by warlock dots, i see you adding dmg resistance into this power so bonus resistance for 10 sec looks good.
    [Forest Ghost] cc immunity needed here, also could use reduced cooldown.
    [Thorn Ward] make it aoe?
    About feats.
    Any feat from archery and combat up to t3 shuld apply to both stances.
    About bugs.
    [Carefull Attack] fix it
    [Pathfinder Action] still bugged when wearing elven battle enchant, reported this before module 10 hunter rework
    [Forest Ghost] speed bonus not applied with elven battle enchant

    thanks for reading
  • kangkeokkangkeok Posts: 860Member Arc User
    zerappus said:

    Decoupling SotF from range allows Archers to experiment with other builds.

    One can still do the older ranged build. It's less effective than with old SofF and the problem remains with the Companion not attacking and party buff range.

    Build like what? point blank archer? U might as well propose to change combat tree feat to accommodate u to experiment with range build. The moment Sotf loses its function that restrict player from playing melee, archery tree loses its essence to be played as a range class.

    The companion not attacking only happen when u stand too far from mob. It is the AI setting of companion which is causing that and can be adjusted from there OR u can just stand a little closer till u find the sweet spot. I dont find this problem at all because losing a few minor % of damage for your companion to hit the mob are still acceptable for me. Its still not an excuse to play archer as a melee.
  • mechjockeymechjockey Posts: 265Member Arc User
    kangkeok said:



    The companion not attacking only happen when u stand too far from mob. It is the AI setting of companion which is causing that and can be adjusted from there OR u can just stand a little closer till u find the sweet spot. I dont find this problem at all because losing a few minor % of damage for your companion to hit the mob are still acceptable for me. Its still not an excuse to play archer as a melee.

    The problem with that is Aspect Of The Pack only grants you it's bonus when you are within range of an ally. If the companion moves into attack range and you are at maximum damage range, neither you, your companion or the team will get the benefit of Aspect Of The Pack. Depending on your build expect to lose roughly a quarter of your damage output. That would be on top of the 10% you are already losing from predator/prey changes

    Far better if they made aspect of the pack a flat aura that didn't require an ally within a given range to activate. This would allow the archer to position themselves independently of the companion. It also wouldn't hurt if the self buffs topped out at much shorter range, and had higher minimums to make fighting in melee more viable.

    Really maximum damage at 100 feet ?
  • seveninchbladeseveninchblade Posts: 73Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    I’m not going to go through the whole list of changes and react to each. On the whole, I think the changes are positive ones. There are a few areas I have suggestions on, as well as some comments on things that weren’t changed in this balance pass.

    Shift Changes: These changes are a definite improvement, increasing the distance just a bit would really put the cherry on top.

    Aspect of the Serpent: I’ve mentioned this already in most of my posts on this thread. I realize that the changes made can lead to a DPS increase (albeit a very small one), and that the new implementation raises the skill cap slightly. That being said, micromanaging the stacks doesn’t feel very good. I would prefer a return to the two stack method, just increasing the damage per stack.

    Stormstep Action: Appears to affect CDR based on AP you should have spent, not AP you did spend. That is, you can cancel Forest Meditation to get the CDR associated with 75% AP loss while only losing 25% AP.

    Thorned Roots: This is at the base of Trapper DPS issues. As already mentioned in this thread more than once, they simply aren’t buffed by things they should be. For Trapper to truly be competitive with Combat, Thorned Roots either need a base damage buff or better interaction with buffs.

    Careful Attack: I understand that the internal cooldown on Careful Attack is not “broken” like most people claim, it is now WAI per the tooltip. That said, Trappers did depend on both the damage and the AotS interaction of the bugged version to compete with Combat for DPS. I don’t mind divorcing CA from AotS stack management, but I think either a significant damage buff or an increase in the tick rate would help bring the Trapper back to where it was. Some powers/attacks trigger the ICD without dealing damage. (Thorned Roots, companion attacks)

    Blade Hurricane: Something I assume most Combat HRs are not aware of is that poor ping can result in a significant loss of DPS from this capstone. Originally pointed out to me by @isssssho, if you have more than 100 ms of ping you are unable to fit three Split Strikes within the Flurry window. As someone who plays with somewhere between 250-270 ping, I never get the full number of Blade Hurricane procs per flurry, often only getting two of the possible six (using 3x Split Strike as the baseline).

    I propose the following change: Using a melee encounter power gives you three stacks of Flurry, which last for 3-4 seconds (subject to tweaking). Using another encounter would reset both the stack count and the timer. Using a melee at-will will consume one stack of Flurry, proccing two Blade Hurricane hits as it does with the current system. This system would ensure that those with high ping still get the full benefit of the capstone, while not increasing the maximum possible DPS for those with low ping.

    Archery: I think the changes taken in this patch are a step towards fixing the ranged problem. That said, I also think the entire system of AoE buffs could bear looking at. As an alternative, I do like the suggestion by @xssplater of having an animal companion that can receive buffs for you. That would come with the caveat that you could only receive buffs once. That is, if your animal companion got AA, your normal companion got AA, and you got AA, you would only receive the benefit from your standard bonding companion and either the buff to your animal companion or yourself.
    Post edited by seveninchblade on
    Charisma was my dump stat.
  • maximus#5077 maximus Posts: 21Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    @seveninchblade well i use hindering constrict cordon. pack serpent disruptive seismic rapid CA. LS and Slashers for bosses- 3 stack serpent is such a bad idea, why did the devs come up with that? how many of them play trapper hr?
  • seveninchbladeseveninchblade Posts: 73Member Arc User
    @maximus#5077 That's pretty close to what I use. The only difference is I usually have Forest Ghost slotted instead of either Seismic or Slasher's but I might as well leave the slot empty because I almost never use a daily other than DS. I don't know how much they play the game period. I appreciate what they're trying to do with that change, but I don't think it was the correct approach. I'd much rather see an equivalent or larger damage boost applied to the current two stacks.
    Charisma was my dump stat.
  • kangkeokkangkeok Posts: 860Member Arc User
    edited September 2018


    The problem with that is Aspect Of The Pack only grants you it's bonus when you are within range of an ally. If the companion moves into attack range and you are at maximum damage range, neither you, your companion or the team will get the benefit of Aspect Of The Pack. Depending on your build expect to lose roughly a quarter of your damage output. That would be on top of the 10% you are already losing from predator/prey changes

    Far better if they made aspect of the pack a flat aura that didn't require an ally within a given range to activate. This would allow the archer to position themselves independently of the companion.

    Aspect of the pack is design to boost the group when they are close together. Like a pack of wolf, they are stronger when they are close together. Why use aspect of the pack when u know u are playing far from party member as an archer? Except if u are close to more than 3 of your party member 90% of the time, there is no reason to slot it. You are better with twin blade if u are stormwarden or seeker vengence in boss fight. Its a rare case for archer to use aspect of the pack effectively. Using aspect of the pack as an archer is like using aspect of the falcon when u are playing as combat. The problem does not concern with archery tree. Its more like poor selection of class feature.

    It also wouldn't hurt if the self buffs topped out at much shorter range, and had higher minimums to make fighting in melee more viable.

    Really maximum damage at 100 feet ?

    Also why would u play archer if u want to fight in melee? Archer is design to fight at range. You are looking at the wrong tree my friend. Perhaps combat spec are more suitable for you to fight in melee? Or trapper if u like weaving in and out.
  • kangkeokkangkeok Posts: 860Member Arc User



    Archery: I think the changes taken in this patch are a step towards fixing the ranged problem.

    I don't know if u understand what you are talking about. The changes in this patch does not address archery real problem but instead making archery tree even more broken. If the new stillness of forest is implemented, there is no need for companion to get buff for you. U will have all the buff when u are at melee range. With that, no ones is going to play archer at range distance which defeat the entire purpose the archery tree are designed for.
  • mechjockeymechjockey Posts: 265Member Arc User
    kangkeok said:


    The problem with that is Aspect Of The Pack only grants you it's bonus when you are within range of an ally. If the companion moves into attack range and you are at maximum damage range, neither you, your companion or the team will get the benefit of Aspect Of The Pack. Depending on your build expect to lose roughly a quarter of your damage output. That would be on top of the 10% you are already losing from predator/prey changes

    Far better if they made aspect of the pack a flat aura that didn't require an ally within a given range to activate. This would allow the archer to position themselves independently of the companion.

    Aspect of the pack is design to boost the group when they are close together. Like a pack of wolf, they are stronger when they are close together. Why use aspect of the pack when u know u are playing far from party member as an archer? Except if u are close to more than 3 of your party member 90% of the time, there is no reason to slot it. You are better with twin blade if u are stormwarden or seeker vengence in boss fight. Its a rare case for archer to use aspect of the pack effectively. Using aspect of the pack as an archer is like using aspect of the falcon when u are playing as combat. The problem does not concern with archery tree. Its more like poor selection of class feature.
    Combat advantage provides me roughly 30% more damage perhaps you aren't using it properly ?

    Seekers vengeance is nearly impossible to use in any fight at range where the boss moved or turned. You wind up spending your time running all over the map.

    BTW I would love to see you using it on Tiamat or the dragon turtle.
    kangkeok said:


    It also wouldn't hurt if the self buffs topped out at much shorter range, and had higher minimums to make fighting in melee more viable.

    Really maximum damage at 100 feet ?

    Also why would u play archer if u want to fight in melee? Archer is design to fight at range. You are looking at the wrong tree my friend. Perhaps combat spec are more suitable for you to fight in melee? Or trapper if u like weaving in and out.

    I would suggest trying to play at range before saying such things. The situation is neither wanted or optional, it's either needed or forced. It is forced on you by mobs that spawn on top of you or spawn away from the boss and make a beeline for you. It is needed because it is the only way to pick up the close in buffs. If the archer has no way to get these buffs from distance he must move close in.

    Hope that helps.
  • kangkeokkangkeok Posts: 860Member Arc User
    edited September 2018

    kangkeok said:


    The problem with that is Aspect Of The Pack only grants you it's bonus when you are within range of an ally. If the companion moves into attack range and you are at maximum damage range, neither you, your companion or the team will get the benefit of Aspect Of The Pack. Depending on your build expect to lose roughly a quarter of your damage output. That would be on top of the 10% you are already losing from predator/prey changes

    Far better if they made aspect of the pack a flat aura that didn't require an ally within a given range to activate. This would allow the archer to position themselves independently of the companion.

    Aspect of the pack is design to boost the group when they are close together. Like a pack of wolf, they are stronger when they are close together. Why use aspect of the pack when u know u are playing far from party member as an archer? Except if u are close to more than 3 of your party member 90% of the time, there is no reason to slot it. You are better with twin blade if u are stormwarden or seeker vengence in boss fight. Its a rare case for archer to use aspect of the pack effectively. Using aspect of the pack as an archer is like using aspect of the falcon when u are playing as combat. The problem does not concern with archery tree. Its more like poor selection of class feature.
    Combat advantage provides me roughly 30% more damage perhaps you aren't using it properly ?

    Seekers vengeance is nearly impossible to use in any fight at range where the boss moved or turned. You wind up spending your time running all over the map.

    BTW I would love to see you using it on Tiamat or the dragon turtle.
    kangkeok said:


    It also wouldn't hurt if the self buffs topped out at much shorter range, and had higher minimums to make fighting in melee more viable.

    Really maximum damage at 100 feet ?

    Also why would u play archer if u want to fight in melee? Archer is design to fight at range. You are looking at the wrong tree my friend. Perhaps combat spec are more suitable for you to fight in melee? Or trapper if u like weaving in and out.
    I would suggest trying to play at range before saying such things. The situation is neither wanted or optional, it's either needed or forced. It is forced on you by mobs that spawn on top of you or spawn away from the boss and make a beeline for you. It is needed because it is the only way to pick up the close in buffs. If the archer has no way to get these buffs from distance he must move close in.

    Hope that helps.
    As I mention if u are close to 3 or more people 90% of the time then it is suitable to use aspect of the pack. Else its a waste of slot. Its totally situational to use aspect of the pack. Playing at range will have a hard time to synergy with aspect of the pack which make it more suitable for spec that plays in close range like combat and trapper. For Tiamat and turtle phase, that's the rare case which I refer that archer could use Aotp.

    I play archer at range all the time. That's why I know aotp are not for archer. When u are playing at range, u are isolated most of the time. Also, archer is forced into playing at close range due to how the nature of buff range work in this game. It contradict the entire gameplay of archer being design as a range dps. If u read closely, that is what people here are suggesting things like having companion to get buff for archer or having archer to able to gain whatever buff that his party member has as long as they are within the archer range. And not making archer to go melee. That just destroy the whole idea of being an archer. I mean if u wanted to go melee, there is combat spec to play. Archer is not to be played as melee. Else I will be asking developer to change combat feat so I can play combat spec at range. There need to be boundary to properly define each path or else its pointless to have the tree path.

    Edit, I would like to add,

    Party buff not reaching archery at range is not cause by archery tree or any of its feat. It is cause by how the range of buff in this game are design. The proper way to solve this without messing up archery tree or other class are simply to add in a function either to companion or the archer himself to be able to gain the buff without needed to go melee. That will retain the functionality of the archer and without messing up buffs from other class.
  • thatsmeaswellthatsmeaswell Posts: 60Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User


    Combat HR have almost everything it needs. Almost. Single target atwill needed, i would like to see [Rapid Strike] buffed, full combo should have dmg of 3rd strike of the combo, also [Aimed Strike] could have it's casting time reduced.
    Archery? Idk. I don't play it.

    thanks for reading

    Especially for combat (but as i and many others said before actually for all trees) i think a buff to movement speed is needed. You have to stay very close to your target as combat but move like a turtle on valium. In addition i would like to have a way to increase damage mitigation a little bit, maybe by changing battle crazed to give deflection severity instead of chance or change wilds medicine since its quite meh in pvp and almost useless in pve. Also a little damage increase would be well appreciated but if forced to choose i would prefer damage mitigation.

    Archery in pvp is fine as it is nowso please dont change stillness of the forest the way you intend to.

    Other than that: (as mentioned many times before by many)

    Reduce casting animations

    Make forest ghost instant, it is so annoying to use in a middle of a fight when you first have to stand still at least half a second before you can even start the long lasting animation which in the end gives you only partly invisibility (it doesnt break caps lock targeting i assume)

    Buff movement speed (preferably by a feat as i have suggested before)

    Fix carefull atack

    Give us one reliable cc break

    Thanks for reading
  • mechjockeymechjockey Posts: 265Member Arc User
    kangkeok said:

    kangkeok said:


    The problem with that is Aspect Of The Pack only grants you it's bonus when you are within range of an ally. If the companion moves into attack range and you are at maximum damage range, neither you, your companion or the team will get the benefit of Aspect Of The Pack. Depending on your build expect to lose roughly a quarter of your damage output. That would be on top of the 10% you are already losing from predator/prey changes

    Far better if they made aspect of the pack a flat aura that didn't require an ally within a given range to activate. This would allow the archer to position themselves independently of the companion.

    Aspect of the pack is design to boost the group when they are close together. Like a pack of wolf, they are stronger when they are close together. Why use aspect of the pack when u know u are playing far from party member as an archer? Except if u are close to more than 3 of your party member 90% of the time, there is no reason to slot it. You are better with twin blade if u are stormwarden or seeker vengence in boss fight. Its a rare case for archer to use aspect of the pack effectively. Using aspect of the pack as an archer is like using aspect of the falcon when u are playing as combat. The problem does not concern with archery tree. Its more like poor selection of class feature.
    Combat advantage provides me roughly 30% more damage perhaps you aren't using it properly ?

    Seekers vengeance is nearly impossible to use in any fight at range where the boss moved or turned. You wind up spending your time running all over the map.

    BTW I would love to see you using it on Tiamat or the dragon turtle.
    kangkeok said:


    It also wouldn't hurt if the self buffs topped out at much shorter range, and had higher minimums to make fighting in melee more viable.

    Really maximum damage at 100 feet ?

    Also why would u play archer if u want to fight in melee? Archer is design to fight at range. You are looking at the wrong tree my friend. Perhaps combat spec are more suitable for you to fight in melee? Or trapper if u like weaving in and out.
    I would suggest trying to play at range before saying such things. The situation is neither wanted or optional, it's either needed or forced. It is forced on you by mobs that spawn on top of you or spawn away from the boss and make a beeline for you. It is needed because it is the only way to pick up the close in buffs. If the archer has no way to get these buffs from distance he must move close in.

    Hope that helps.

    As I mention if u are close to 3 or more people 90% of the time then it is suitable to use aspect of the pack. Else its a waste of slot. Its totally situational to use aspect of the pack. Playing at range will have a hard time to synergy with aspect of the pack which make it more suitable for spec that plays in close range like combat and trapper. For Tiamat and turtle phase, that's the rare case which I refer that archer could use Aotp.
    If you are playing close in to a boss with 3 or more people within range you won't need Aspect of the pack because you all of you will have combat advantage from proper positioning.
    kangkeok said:


    I play archer at range all the time. That's why I know aotp are not for archer. When u are playing at range, u are isolated most of the time. Also, archer is forced into playing at close range due to how the nature of buff range work in this game. It contradict the entire gameplay of archer being design as a range dps. If u read closely, that is what people here are suggesting things like having companion to get buff for archer or having archer to able to gain whatever buff that his party member has as long as they are within the archer range. And not making archer to go melee. That just destroy the whole idea of being an archer. I mean if u wanted to go melee, there is combat spec to play. Archer is not to be played as melee. Else I will be asking developer to change combat feat so I can play combat spec at range. There need to be boundary to properly define each path or else its pointless to have the tree path.

    Thank you for repeating what I said. I might have forgotten without your kind efforts. Seeing as you missed the overall point, giving archers the ability to move in and not cripple themselves is one way to fix the range problem. This would seem to be indicated by the change to stillness of the forest. The problem is stillness no longer provides the same level of buff that it used to and winds up being a net dps decrease.

    "There need to be boundary to properly define each path or else its pointless to have the tree path."

    That is rather meaningless. I could simply say Archery is primarily defined by using bow based skills, or the ability to function at range as well as closer without actually being in melee. Trapper primarily by using traps and plants. Combat by using axes. All equally valid. Just by example stillness was defined by being away from everyone until the new changes.

    kangkeok said:


    Edit, I would like to add,

    Party buff not reaching archery at range is not cause by archery tree or any of its feat. It is cause by how the range of buff in this game are design. The proper way to solve this without messing up archery tree or other class are simply to add in a function either to companion or the archer himself to be able to gain the buff without needed to go melee. That will retain the functionality of the archer and without messing up buffs from other class.

    That's really nice but I wasn't talking about why things happened, but how to change things to mitigate the problems. Saying that it isn't the archery tree pushing archers to always be at long range it's the way the buffs are, is non productive at many levels. Not the least of which is redoing the buff system is likely going to be much harder than allowing the archer function closer in.

    Having the companion pick up buffs is a nice idea, as long as it doesn't depend on the companion being alive, you know the way the legendary buff does.

    However if one of the things the archer is supposed to do is buff, it doesn't help at all.
  • mechjockeymechjockey Posts: 265Member Arc User
    kangkeok said:

    kangkeok said:


    The problem with that is Aspect Of The Pack only grants you it's bonus when you are within range of an ally. If the companion moves into attack range and you are at maximum damage range, neither you, your companion or the team will get the benefit of Aspect Of The Pack. Depending on your build expect to lose roughly a quarter of your damage output. That would be on top of the 10% you are already losing from predator/prey changes

    Far better if they made aspect of the pack a flat aura that didn't require an ally within a given range to activate. This would allow the archer to position themselves independently of the companion.

    Aspect of the pack is design to boost the group when they are close together. Like a pack of wolf, they are stronger when they are close together. Why use aspect of the pack when u know u are playing far from party member as an archer? Except if u are close to more than 3 of your party member 90% of the time, there is no reason to slot it. You are better with twin blade if u are stormwarden or seeker vengence in boss fight. Its a rare case for archer to use aspect of the pack effectively. Using aspect of the pack as an archer is like using aspect of the falcon when u are playing as combat. The problem does not concern with archery tree. Its more like poor selection of class feature.
    Combat advantage provides me roughly 30% more damage perhaps you aren't using it properly ?

    Seekers vengeance is nearly impossible to use in any fight at range where the boss moved or turned. You wind up spending your time running all over the map.

    BTW I would love to see you using it on Tiamat or the dragon turtle.
    kangkeok said:


    It also wouldn't hurt if the self buffs topped out at much shorter range, and had higher minimums to make fighting in melee more viable.

    Really maximum damage at 100 feet ?

    Also why would u play archer if u want to fight in melee? Archer is design to fight at range. You are looking at the wrong tree my friend. Perhaps combat spec are more suitable for you to fight in melee? Or trapper if u like weaving in and out.
    I would suggest trying to play at range before saying such things. The situation is neither wanted or optional, it's either needed or forced. It is forced on you by mobs that spawn on top of you or spawn away from the boss and make a beeline for you. It is needed because it is the only way to pick up the close in buffs. If the archer has no way to get these buffs from distance he must move close in.

    Hope that helps.
    As I mention if u are close to 3 or more people 90% of the time then it is suitable to use aspect of the pack. Else its a waste of slot. Its totally situational to use aspect of the pack. Playing at range will have a hard time to synergy with aspect of the pack which make it more suitable for spec that plays in close range like combat and trapper. For Tiamat and turtle phase, that's the rare case which I refer that archer could use Aotp.

    I play archer at range all the time. That's why I know aotp are not for archer. When u are playing at range, u are isolated most of the time. Also, archer is forced into playing at close range due to how the nature of buff range work in this game. It contradict the entire gameplay of archer being design as a range dps. If u read closely, that is what people here are suggesting things like having companion to get buff for archer or having archer to able to gain whatever buff that his party member has as long as they are within the archer range. And not making archer to go melee. That just destroy the whole idea of being an archer. I mean if u wanted to go melee, there is combat spec to play. Archer is not to be played as melee. Else I will be asking developer to change combat feat so I can play combat spec at range. There need to be boundary to properly define each path or else its pointless to have the tree path.

    Edit, I would like to add,

    Party buff not reaching archery at range is not cause by archery tree or any of its feat. It is cause by how the range of buff in this game are design. The proper way to solve this without messing up archery tree or other class are simply to add in a function either to companion or the archer himself to be able to gain the buff without needed to go melee. That will retain the functionality of the archer and without messing up buffs from other class.
    I had longer reply to this but the forum ate my post. Oh well.

    Bottom line Fixing the buff system is likely a bigger job than fixing the archery tree. Stating that that's the way you think archery should be, is no more valid than anyone else's conception of archery. Saying it's not the tree it's the buffs is just silly it's how the two things interact.

    I get the feeling either English is not your first language or I am being trolled, into endlessly repeating myself

    So Cheers

  • orion33#7082 orion33 Posts: 2Member Arc User
    Please don't brake the Cordon of Arrows :#
  • kangkeokkangkeok Posts: 860Member Arc User
    edited September 2018

    kangkeok said:

    kangkeok said:


    The problem with that is Aspect Of The Pack only grants you it's bonus when you are within range of an ally. If the companion moves into attack range and you are at maximum damage range, neither you, your companion or the team will get the benefit of Aspect Of The Pack. Depending on your build expect to lose roughly a quarter of your damage output. That would be on top of the 10% you are already losing from predator/prey changes

    Far better if they made aspect of the pack a flat aura that didn't require an ally within a given range to activate. This would allow the archer to position themselves independently of the companion.

    Aspect of the pack is design to boost the group when they are close together. Like a pack of wolf, they are stronger when they are close together. Why use aspect of the pack when u know u are playing far from party member as an archer? Except if u are close to more than 3 of your party member 90% of the time, there is no reason to slot it. You are better with twin blade if u are stormwarden or seeker vengence in boss fight. Its a rare case for archer to use aspect of the pack effectively. Using aspect of the pack as an archer is like using aspect of the falcon when u are playing as combat. The problem does not concern with archery tree. Its more like poor selection of class feature.
    Combat advantage provides me roughly 30% more damage perhaps you aren't using it properly ?

    Seekers vengeance is nearly impossible to use in any fight at range where the boss moved or turned. You wind up spending your time running all over the map.

    BTW I would love to see you using it on Tiamat or the dragon turtle.
    kangkeok said:


    It also wouldn't hurt if the self buffs topped out at much shorter range, and had higher minimums to make fighting in melee more viable.

    Really maximum damage at 100 feet ?

    Also why would u play archer if u want to fight in melee? Archer is design to fight at range. You are looking at the wrong tree my friend. Perhaps combat spec are more suitable for you to fight in melee? Or trapper if u like weaving in and out.
    I would suggest trying to play at range before saying such things. The situation is neither wanted or optional, it's either needed or forced. It is forced on you by mobs that spawn on top of you or spawn away from the boss and make a beeline for you. It is needed because it is the only way to pick up the close in buffs. If the archer has no way to get these buffs from distance he must move close in.

    Hope that helps.
    As I mention if u are close to 3 or more people 90% of the time then it is suitable to use aspect of the pack. Else its a waste of slot. Its totally situational to use aspect of the pack. Playing at range will have a hard time to synergy with aspect of the pack which make it more suitable for spec that plays in close range like combat and trapper. For Tiamat and turtle phase, that's the rare case which I refer that archer could use Aotp.

    I play archer at range all the time. That's why I know aotp are not for archer. When u are playing at range, u are isolated most of the time. Also, archer is forced into playing at close range due to how the nature of buff range work in this game. It contradict the entire gameplay of archer being design as a range dps. If u read closely, that is what people here are suggesting things like having companion to get buff for archer or having archer to able to gain whatever buff that his party member has as long as they are within the archer range. And not making archer to go melee. That just destroy the whole idea of being an archer. I mean if u wanted to go melee, there is combat spec to play. Archer is not to be played as melee. Else I will be asking developer to change combat feat so I can play combat spec at range. There need to be boundary to properly define each path or else its pointless to have the tree path.

    Edit, I would like to add,

    Party buff not reaching archery at range is not cause by archery tree or any of its feat. It is cause by how the range of buff in this game are design. The proper way to solve this without messing up archery tree or other class are simply to add in a function either to companion or the archer himself to be able to gain the buff without needed to go melee. That will retain the functionality of the archer and without messing up buffs from other class.
    I had longer reply to this but the forum ate my post. Oh well.

    Bottom line Fixing the buff system is likely a bigger job than fixing the archery tree. Stating that that's the way you think archery should be, is no more valid than anyone else's conception of archery. Saying it's not the tree it's the buffs is just silly it's how the two things interact.

    I get the feeling either English is not your first language or I am being trolled, into endlessly repeating myself

    So Cheers

    U mean "anyone else's concept of archery" by playing it melee? And for what? Because all the buff in the game is at melee? Then what is aspect of falcon for? or hawkshot? Should they change too so it scale backward since archer is to be played as a melee? If they dont, those power will be useless. And if they do, then why play archer when combat could slot in the new aspect of falcon and perform better in melee? Its never about my concept or your concept. Its about the core gameplay of each tree path. Combat staying in melee, trapper switch between melee and range & archer staying at range. If changes are not made carefully to respect the feat that govern each tree path, things will get more and more broken.
  • heimdal#3771 heimdal Posts: 32Member Arc User
    when it comes to the trapper, the net gain for me as I see it, is 1,5% increased dmg, as I still need to do the same amount of actions to cooldown my skills for each rotation. the threestack gives 7.5% bonus dmg as I understand it, while the old two stack gives 6%, it doesn't help me that the stack builds faster if my powers aren't cooled down when I swap. im happy for all I get extra, but if the intent is to allow us to build and use stacks faster. From what I can see, nothing in the change make me swap more often, sure dmg buff is ready faster and more potent, but my encounters need same or more time to get ready. From what I read your intent is to make us able to work faster and do a bit more dmg, then you need to link the serpent stacks to our cooldowns. Looking foreward to see what this means in game :)
  • divectoredivectore Posts: 154Member Arc User

    when it comes to the trapper, the net gain for me as I see it, is 1,5% increased dmg, as I still need to do the same amount of actions to cooldown my skills for each rotation. the threestack gives 7.5% bonus dmg as I understand it, while the old two stack gives 6%, it doesn't help me that the stack builds faster if my powers aren't cooled down when I swap. im happy for all I get extra, but if the intent is to allow us to build and use stacks faster. From what I can see, nothing in the change make me swap more often, sure dmg buff is ready faster and more potent, but my encounters need same or more time to get ready. From what I read your intent is to make us able to work faster and do a bit more dmg, then you need to link the serpent stacks to our cooldowns. Looking foreward to see what this means in game :)

    it is like this: with the old AotS, you'd get 12% damage for each stack, so, 24% more damage at full stacks + trapper's feat 10% for a total of 34%, now you get 10% per stack, 30% at full stacks + 15% from trapper's feat, so 45%.
  • heimdal#3771 heimdal Posts: 32Member Arc User
    divectore said:

    when it comes to the trapper, the net gain for me as I see it, is 1,5% increased dmg, as I still need to do the same amount of actions to cooldown my skills for each rotation. the threestack gives 7.5% bonus dmg as I understand it, while the old two stack gives 6%, it doesn't help me that the stack builds faster if my powers aren't cooled down when I swap. im happy for all I get extra, but if the intent is to allow us to build and use stacks faster. From what I can see, nothing in the change make me swap more often, sure dmg buff is ready faster and more potent, but my encounters need same or more time to get ready. From what I read your intent is to make us able to work faster and do a bit more dmg, then you need to link the serpent stacks to our cooldowns. Looking foreward to see what this means in game :)

    it is like this: with the old AotS, you'd get 12% damage for each stack, so, 24% more damage at full stacks + trapper's feat 10% for a total of 34%, now you get 10% per stack, 30% at full stacks + 15% from trapper's feat, so 45%.
    As they have marked the changes at base value, I also calculated base value, I did not calculate in feats/max skill bunus/weaponbonus etc. as that is variables.
  • evemjevemj Posts: 59Member Arc User
    Functional rooting or slowing of enemies would help archery. As indicated previously, for solo play, enemies group up to the player too fast for distance-based damage to be worth anything.
    Not like it's a huge problem as enemies die relatively fast and you can always use a dff loadout for soloing, but still, some help for solo archers wouldn't hurt.

    Or make archery stronger so nothing makes its way to you. :astonished:
  • wdj40wdj40 Posts: 1,954Member Arc User
    artifleur said:

    Aspect of the Serpent : What if you kept the three stacks and simply removed the "both types cannot affect you at the same time" clause? Use three encounters, get three stacks. No need to keep track of which stacks you already had that way.

    This is exactly what I have suggested and is by far the best idea by a mile. The way the Devs @balanced#2849 (I think) suggested they wanted it to work would be 3 Encounters and an At-Will to get the opposite stacks at the maximum 3. The only way this could work is if you could get both stacks at the same time.

    So 3 stacks of Ranged AotS and use Longstriders... this takes you down to 2 but gives you 1 stack of Melee AotS... Then Constricting Arrow using the 2 stacks of Ranged Aots and also giving you the 2nd stack of Melee AotS.

    And so forth... this allows the Trapper to be much more effective and also open up paths into switching builds... Ones that could switch between Ranged and Melee more often not using up the entire Encounter Tray for Ranged or Melee.
    Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only
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  • kangkeokkangkeok Posts: 860Member Arc User

    kangkeok said:

    [...]Party buff not reaching archery at range is not cause by archery tree or any of its feat. It is cause by how the range of buff in this game are design. The proper way to solve this without messing up archery tree or other class are simply to add in a function either to companion or the archer himself to be able to gain the buff without needed to go melee. That will retain the functionality of the archer and without messing up buffs from other class.

    The primary issues with the Archery path:
    1. We're forced to fight close up to receive buffs,
    2. We need to be able to move to escape/drop agro/gain distance,
    3. Some skills (forest ghost, for example) don't work properly and force us to stand still too long,
    4. and We need to be at maximum range for maximum effectiveness.
    The proposed changes/solutions in this mod:
    1. Don't fight at range.
    2. Stand still and take the hits - Archers are tanks, right?,
    3. These aren't the droids you're looking for. Dodge.
    4. Let's nerf your biggest range advantage (Stillness of the Forest) with a new version that doesn't even work to force you to forget about range altogether and switch to the Combat path.
    My proposed solutions:
    1. Increase the range of all buffs, or apply buffs to party members regardless of range.
    2. Increase our base movement speed, or decrease the speed of monsters. We should be able to kill most normal monsters before they reach us if we attack from max range.
    3. Make Forest Ghost uninterruptable by other skills/actions.
    4. Leave Stillness of the Forest alone. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Remove the incentive to be at close range by increasing buff range or applying buffs to the party regardless of range, and make it possible for us to maintain Stillness by implementing the above changes.
    My fellow archers, please upvote my suggested changes with a like, awesome, or agree to bring them to the attention of the developers before they "make the archer path more viable" by nerfing it into oblivion.

    One other thing to mention, solution 1 fixes the same issues for other ranged classes (CW,SW, and DC, for example) that are forced to stand too close to the melee types. Forcing us to bunch up with the melee types is as crazy as forcing an OP to fight at range.
    All u mention is pretty much it. Although for your proposed solution no.1, I have actually brought it up to Mimicking once but it seem that will only break pvp because archer will be buff no matter where he is in the pvp map while the other party member still has to obey the buff rule. So IMO, the best way to do it without breaking pvp are to make archer able to gain the buff his party member has as long as the member is within the archer max range. That way if the archer is across the map in pvp, he wont be buffed.
  • shadoewraythshadoewrayth Posts: 178Member Arc User
    I definitely agree with the removal of ranges on buffs. Other classes choose to be in the middle of melee combat, despite being squishy or meant for range, just because of the range on buffs. Control Wizards, Rogues, etc. not that this would ‘fix’ their woes, but it would go a long ways. Why do rogues never go ranged? Not just lack of good skills, but also the buffs... they need to drop the range part, group buffs are group buffs, period.
  • hastur905hastur905 Posts: 100Member Arc User
    As much as the possibility of trying to get the Dev's to rework how the buffs work with distance, I find that more of a pipe dream than something that could actually happen in the short term. For now let's deal with what we actually know.

    In Mod 15 we know that the one buff that was actually contributing to an Archer's damage no matter how close or far was the DO feature Terrifying Insight. Of course this effects many classes, and I am not making an argument that change be reversed, but given that if a Archer actually played from distance it was probably the only party buff that they had. OP's buffs are distance related, 30' at base, 40' max if they have chosen that feat. An AC/DC's powershare is also probably 30' at max, but to receive AA you probably have to be within 15'. But I am not making this post to discuss my knowledge or lack thereof when it comes to these other classes.

    The question of the Archer becomes what role do that have in a party? Should they be a buffer class? is that what the Dev's had in mind for this tree? Looking at the changes to powers that contribute to party buffs being lessened I would surmise no.

    My hope, is that it's supposed to be dps. Trapper's role is CC with some DoT, Combat is dps with swords, Archer dps with Bow. Does dps with a bow mean that you have to be 50' away? it shouldn't, a player should be able to play however they want, near or far.

    So the next question is how do you give additional damage to bring it closer, I really mean that, closer to a combat spec. Combat currently has 7 feats that go directly into increasing damage, the Archer has 5.

    So here are the suggestions:
    1. Unflinching Aim change - Your Ranged Powers deal 5/10/15/20/25% more damage from 4/8/12/16//20%
    2. Rising Focus - Ranged Critical Strikes grant 1.5/2.5/3.5/4.5/5.5% more Critical Severity and Power. Stacks 3 times. Lasts 6 seconds up from 1/2/3/4/5%.
    3. Predator - Using a ranged encounter power applies Prey (up to 5 targets) for 10 seconds, you and your party do an additional 20% damage to targets marked with Prey. This bonus is doubled for you with targets affected by Prey. Prey cannot be reapplied until it expires.
    I think these changes would be very interesting to see on Preview, but overall I think these changes would put Archery, near or far, in a better place, and begin to close the gap with combat. Let the debate begin.
  • arcticblitzarcticblitz Posts: 119Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User



    proposed solutions:

    1. Increase the range of all buffs, or apply buffs to party members regardless of range.
    2. Increase our base movement speed, or decrease the speed of monsters. We should be able to kill most normal monsters before they reach us if we attack from max range.
    3. Make Forest Ghost uninterruptable by other skills/actions.
    4. Leave Stillness of the Forest alone. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Remove the incentive to be at close range by increasing buff range or applying buffs to the party regardless of range, and make it possible for us to maintain Stillness by implementing the above changes.
    Jumping in as a PVE only Archer since the class launched up until about 8 months ago when I switched to the combat dps train :) , Pretty much agree with these points, but limiting #1 to PVE only so it doesn't break PVP

    What I'd also like to see is a archery feat have an additional benefit that allows Rapid shot / Electric shot to be used whilst moving as in it doesn't interrupt movement when firing. those small pauses have always irritated the hell out of me.
    Blitzy : PVE only Barbarian
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  • kangkeokkangkeok Posts: 860Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    hastur905 said:


    Does dps with a bow mean that you have to be 50' away? it shouldn't, a player should be able to play however they want, near or far.

    While I understand your sentiment, there are nothing to stop a player from playing closer than 50'. Even without the changes to stillness of forest, player are still able to play a point blank archer by not including stillness of forest in their spec. Although that is not the case for player that want to play archer at range. Thats the main problem right now. Archer are ironically force to play at melee. The current changes to stillness of forest does not solve the issue but instead making it worse since they remove archer incentive to play at range.

    Edit: Although its tempting, though, I wouldn't suggest to buff archer tree yet till they fix the 'archer/ party buff' issue. We don't know the potential strength of archer once they get full party buff at range.
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