We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough. It is also worth making sure everyone knows that Combat Advantage is not working on preview currently ( a fix has been made and hopefully will be in the next preview update). So take that into account with any testing that is being done.
U could have removed power looping, but still let the dailies / encounters increase our power. U did it when u changed WWoB to not loop with itself, but just overwrite the previous buff. Why not add the other encounters / daily into this aswell? Nerfing everything else because some ppl use power looping, a thing u are removing. U are cracking nuts with a sledgehammer here.
At live right now, not using ITC, only using CB or WWoB not both. I am able to compete in endgame. Still i often get beat by GWFs, and i know lots of HRs and GFs can beat me too. I am not overpowered. And this is a 17.2k TR who gets their DMG from AP gains so they can do SoD every 8-10 sec. And from trying to have bleed stacking. It is nice to see the bleed nerf removed, but there is nothing in ur suggestions thats making up for the dmg lost from the self buffs. And removing hits from duelist doesnt just lose 2 hits of atwills, but also 2 hits of AoC and weapon enchantment. Things have a bigger impact that u seam to wanna understand once in a group compared to solo.
I hope in the future u will look at the normal TRs when u decide class changes. Not just the big guns.
OK apart from asking for a class reroll, we should tell you why we think that the changes are terrible for PVE TRs.
Players should always discuss the reasons behind how they feel about changes. Saying you hate it is fine, but it doesn't open the door for any conversations back and forth and is far less likely to result in adjustments that you'd like to see. We do appreciate the different detailed feedback that has been left in the thread so far.
A change of this size is always going to bring up a lot thoughts, many of them unhappy, about how the class they're used to is changing. And in this case, some of the changes probably were a bit too far.
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough. It is also worth making sure everyone knows that Combat Advantage is not working on preview currently ( a fix has been made and hopefully will be in the next preview update). So take that into account with any testing that is being done.
Here are some adjustments we're looking into:
Low Blows: Reverted back to 5/10/15/20/25% Skullcracker: Base duration increased to 10 seconds Skullcracker: Bonus duration increased to 5 seconds One With the Shadows: Damage bonus increased to 40% Shadowborn: Damage increased to 20/40/60/80/100 Duelist's Flurry: Bleed damage restored to previous amount
I agree you should remove power looping (only a small % of people at end-game even did this), but the proposed changes do not overall really improve our situation much. We will need at least one self buffing power to stay competitive. Please can you reconsider the changes you made to Whirlwind of blades for example. The daily's is where you have truly crippled our class. Please consider at least giving us 1 back instead of removing all 3! (Wob, Cb and ITC)
Regarding saboteur... isn´t this a buff for this path? Or do I miss some?
It's a very slight buff but they did it by reducing the effectiveness of Executioner by about 50% overall rather than actually make the other paths better.
To put it in perspective, Executioner was JUST good enough when massively overgeared to be a decent DPS. It will become half of that effectiveness with these changes.
I hope in the future u will look at the normal TRs when u decide class changes. Not just the big guns.
I think this sums it up... since the TR's were seriously nerfed around the time of the Mod that I do not care to mention by number ( I still have nightmares about that one...) its been a continuous downhill progression for the average/solo running TR. Take the speed away and you destroy what the class was about... fast and nimble.
Please don't turn the Trickster Rogue into the Tortured or Tortoise Rogue... I have 4 of them by the way.....
Here is a little idea: introduce a backstab mulitplier from stealth for enocunter or at will or a class feat. I know there is a first strike class feat and feat in exe tree, but it could be something to think about.
In short we shot ourselves in the foot, but it will be mended. Once they see TR is in a terrible state, things will change for us. So play your TR, and pay it full force finding all ways to increase your damage. > In time we will be adjusted and great again! Also consider that this new mod is not complicated or hard to do. Who cares if you don't get invited to end game content. That content will just be replaced by something better in the end like always. > Stick it out. Ride it out. TR will prevail!
This makes no sense considering other classes(ahem, gwfs) have been top tier dps for several mods without the devs hitting them with the nerf bat. shot ourselves in the foot by playing the spec that puts out the best dps?! lmmfao, really? how much variety do you see in gwf or dps gf specs?
your whole premise is that we should be tr cheerleaders and not expect to be viable main dps at end game because 'goooooo TRs!'. No, this isn't balancing classes, these changes will relegate a class that was finally made a viable main dps to being laughably unsuitable for that role. At least DO DCs can switch to AC if they've got the gear already, but TRs will have no niche whatsoever if these changes go live.
I'm not going to leave the game just yet. I'll wait to see what the end result is, but i'm certainly not going to invest in this game until that result is clear.
> @mafiadelperro#8853 said: > > @spargu1 said: > > STOP CRYING! These changes are not that bad. I've tested them on preview, just git gud . Im 17.3k TR and rly on top in the pvp leaderboard... Although, I do not agree with the Impossible to Catch and Whirlwind of Blades changes.. PLIZ CHANGE THEM BACK OR RIOT
well just been playing the test server... right.. not impressed.. went to dread ring icewind dale well of dragons barovia... etc the term re balance not really applicable unless nerfing the tr once again is called balancing... less dps harder to work and I have at least 2 of all the other classes and the TR wasn't exactly a heavy hitter before hand, SW, HR, CW let's not mention GWF all out did them before this supposed nerf, my DC's kills faster... All of my 24 characters are around the 9.6k mark, all have a bonded companion, best gear I can afford/get going solo, and the TR 's are always slower to kill. Now they just got slower... what TR's in the game are you using as the baseline ?
Tested another TR build to see how it went... as any sort of DPS buff has been, well its pretty obvious unless your in the 17k plus group... would have been nice to have increased some sort of damage resistance/deflect/ increased stamina to make up for the fact you are in combat longer.... especially in multiple wave type situations as in heroic events. On another subject will all characters get a respec token or preferable another build slot free as the changes seem to be quite dramatic ?
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed
Fair enough, I think most TRs would be fine with that. I never stack dailies and could still compete and often surpass end-game GWFs in mod 13/14. That being said, what matters the most nowdays in end-game content is the 4 supporting classes, my TR could melt bosses with one group and strangle with another group.
Individual dailies as they are now, are more or less balanced for PVE content, so problem arises when you start stacking them combined with group buffs. So why not simply prevent the stacking of dailies for all classes? When ever a daily is used it can overwrite the previous one. Wouldn't that be a simple solution?
Also most people wouldn't be able to stack dailies without the Artificer's Persuasion. So why don't you change or remove that one? combined with the power boost of the support classes, the AP gain and Recovery boost goes a long way in helping people stack dailies. Wouldn't tweaking or remove Artificer's Persuasion be simpler? And do you think it was only the TRs that were using that one?
I also think that it is great that you want to resurrect the other feat trees and the Whisper Knife spec. I am 100% behind you on this one. However do you have to break the EXE feat tree? If something is working why mess with it? The EXE feat tree was viable without power looping. Viable not overpowered! Remove the power looping by not allowing dailies to stack (also maybe think about tweaking the Artificer's Persuasion) and problem solved. The other feat trees could definitely use some love, but taking the EXE down with them is not what every TR was thinking when we wanted to see a balanced option of feat trees.
OK apart from asking for a class reroll, we should tell you why we think that the changes are terrible for PVE TRs.
Players should always discuss the reasons behind how they feel about changes. Saying you hate it is fine, but it doesn't open the door for any conversations back and forth and is far less likely to result in adjustments that you'd like to see. We do appreciate the different detailed feedback that has been left in the thread so far.
A change of this size is always going to bring up a lot thoughts, many of them unhappy, about how the class they're used to is changing. And in this case, some of the changes probably were a bit too far.
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough. It is also worth making sure everyone knows that Combat Advantage is not working on preview currently ( a fix has been made and hopefully will be in the next preview update). So take that into account with any testing that is being done.
Here are some adjustments we're looking into:
Low Blows: Reverted back to 5/10/15/20/25% Skullcracker: Base duration increased to 10 seconds Skullcracker: Bonus duration increased to 5 seconds One With the Shadows: Damage bonus increased to 40% Shadowborn: Damage increased to 20/40/60/80/100 Duelist's Flurry: Bleed damage restored to previous amount
I guess its fair enough that Power looping is targeted since the potential was endless even tho it rarely occurred in end-game since there is not time for it. I dont object to putting a stop to the WoB+ITC+CB interaction but at least give us one source of Power increase since we lost all 3. We need high AP gain and for that we need high Power stat because its crucial for us to overlap two Daily powers, because its not possible to compete with just one Daily buff. My suggestion is reverting Whirlwind of Blades to how it was. Power looping without CB giving Power is no longer possible and WoB itself is the greatest nerf because it now gives 40% damage increase while it used to give us ~90% damage increase(without Power loop with CB). You can also nerf WoB to 10% Power per target hit but i dont recommend that because TR will lose large portion of damage when Smoke bomb triggering Aura of Courage 4 times gets fixed. Reverting only WoB would help us a lot. Removing AP gain block from Lurkers Assault would be great addition because we wont stand a chance in longer fights even with WoB reverted.
DF Bleeds damage back to previous is great since it would help low and mid tier TRs, wont affect end-game TRs since they dont use it anyway. Skullcracker duration increase is fantastic, it would give Executioner good run for his money. Currently there is bug with the Skullcracker mark not being extended by damage done, it stays at 6 seconds on Bosses. One with the Shadows increase is also nice and puts Saboteur int othe race with other two trees as well. Shadowborn increase sounds fair, it is weaker than m14 SoD bleed because it used to double dip and SoD itself already was toned town by 1/3 of the damage. Also Shadowborn wont be used everywhere, strictly for single target fights, it will be replaced on mobs and on bosses which have mobs around them.
Bottom line, we need some source of Power stat back, best would be WoB since it has hit us the most and since we need AP gain so much.
tbh i don't see why you need powerlooping that much other DPS classes don't have ability to powerloop and even the GWF class wich has a feat TIER 4 that gives some power only gives 12000 if you have somewhere near BIS gear so why should a TR have 2 dailies and an encounter that increase thier power by huge margins than that while other classes don't have such luxury ? just play the game with whaever powershare the party provide so i don't agree that powerlooping on TR should be reverted
> @heraldfayez#8520 said: That's the problem, we needed said power loop to compete with other classes, now it was taken out and we were given back 1/4 of what it was worth *this has been the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals from maybe ever*
OK apart from asking for a class reroll, we should tell you why we think that the changes are terrible for PVE TRs.
Players should always discuss the reasons behind how they feel about changes. Saying you hate it is fine, but it doesn't open the door for any conversations back and forth and is far less likely to result in adjustments that you'd like to see. We do appreciate the different detailed feedback that has been left in the thread so far.
A change of this size is always going to bring up a lot thoughts, many of them unhappy, about how the class they're used to is changing. And in this case, some of the changes probably were a bit too far.
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough. It is also worth making sure everyone knows that Combat Advantage is not working on preview currently ( a fix has been made and hopefully will be in the next preview update). So take that into account with any testing that is being done.
Here are some adjustments we're looking into:
Low Blows: Reverted back to 5/10/15/20/25% Skullcracker: Base duration increased to 10 seconds Skullcracker: Bonus duration increased to 5 seconds One With the Shadows: Damage bonus increased to 40% Shadowborn: Damage increased to 20/40/60/80/100 Duelist's Flurry: Bleed damage restored to previous amount
I guess its fair enough that Power looping is targeted since the potential was endless even tho it rarely occurred in end-game since there is not time for it. I dont object to putting a stop to the WoB+ITC+CB interaction but at least give us one source of Power increase since we lost all 3. We need high AP gain and for that we need high Power stat because its crucial for us to overlap two Daily powers, because its not possible to compete with just one Daily buff. My suggestion is reverting Whirlwind of Blades to how it was. Power looping without CB giving Power is no longer possible and WoB itself is the greatest nerf because it now gives 40% damage increase while it used to give us ~90% damage increase(without Power loop with CB). You can also nerf WoB to 10% Power per target hit but i dont recommend that because TR will lose large portion of damage when Smoke bomb triggering Aura of Courage 4 times gets fixed. Reverting only WoB would help us a lot. Removing AP gain block from Lurkers Assault would be great addition because we wont stand a chance in longer fights even with WoB reverted.
DF Bleeds damage back to previous is great since it would help low and mid tier TRs, wont affect end-game TRs since they dont use it anyway. Skullcracker duration increase is fantastic, it would give Executioner good run for his money. Currently there is bug with the Skullcracker mark not being extended by damage done, it stays at 6 seconds on Bosses. One with the Shadows increase is also nice and puts Saboteur int othe race with other two trees as well. Shadowborn increase sounds fair, it is weaker than m14 SoD bleed because it used to double dip and SoD itself already was toned town by 1/3 of the damage. Also Shadowborn wont be used everywhere, strictly for single target fights, it will be replaced on mobs and on bosses which have mobs around them.
Bottom line, we need some source of Power stat back, best would be WoB since it has hit us the most and since we need AP gain so much.
tbh i don't see why you need powerlooping that much other DPS classes don't have ability to powerloop and even the GWF class wich has a feat TIER 4 that gives some power only gives 12000 if you have somewhere near BIS gear so why should a TR have 2 dailies and an encounter that increase thier power by huge margins than that while other classes don't have such luxury ? just play the game with whaever powershare the party provide so i don't agree that powerlooping on TR should be reverted
Maybe TR needs a stackable classfeature like "Backstabber" stacks up to 3 times for the ammount of 12% (4/4 feated).
"BACKSTABBER" Your sneaky attacks cut deep, increasing your damage by 3% every time you backstab enemies with a single attack. Stacks up to 3 times. Rank2 Damage: +3% per stack , Rank3 Damage: +3% per stack, Rank4 Damage: +3% per stack
Like that you get a 36% dps increase, exposed weakness can be renamed into " Focused Backstabber":
"FOCUSED BACKSTABBER" Focused BckstabberFeat Backstabber now has a 5/10/15/20/25% chance to grant a stack when stabbing an enemie in stealth. Additionally, Backstabber grants you .7/1.4/2.1/2.8/3.5% bonus damage per stack.
That´s a damage increase like 3x15.5%=46.5% from one classfeature+ a feat ! Awesome, would also synergize in PVP with stealthed Bloodbath pretty good
OK apart from asking for a class reroll, we should tell you why we think that the changes are terrible for PVE TRs.
Players should always discuss the reasons behind how they feel about changes. Saying you hate it is fine, but it doesn't open the door for any conversations back and forth and is far less likely to result in adjustments that you'd like to see. We do appreciate the different detailed feedback that has been left in the thread so far.
A change of this size is always going to bring up a lot thoughts, many of them unhappy, about how the class they're used to is changing. And in this case, some of the changes probably were a bit too far.
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough. It is also worth making sure everyone knows that Combat Advantage is not working on preview currently ( a fix has been made and hopefully will be in the next preview update). So take that into account with any testing that is being done.
Here are some adjustments we're looking into:
Low Blows: Reverted back to 5/10/15/20/25% Skullcracker: Base duration increased to 10 seconds Skullcracker: Bonus duration increased to 5 seconds One With the Shadows: Damage bonus increased to 40% Shadowborn: Damage increased to 20/40/60/80/100 Duelist's Flurry: Bleed damage restored to previous amount
I guess its fair enough that Power looping is targeted since the potential was endless even tho it rarely occurred in end-game since there is not time for it. I dont object to putting a stop to the WoB+ITC+CB interaction but at least give us one source of Power increase since we lost all 3. We need high AP gain and for that we need high Power stat because its crucial for us to overlap two Daily powers, because its not possible to compete with just one Daily buff. My suggestion is reverting Whirlwind of Blades to how it was. Power looping without CB giving Power is no longer possible and WoB itself is the greatest nerf because it now gives 40% damage increase while it used to give us ~90% damage increase(without Power loop with CB). You can also nerf WoB to 10% Power per target hit but i dont recommend that because TR will lose large portion of damage when Smoke bomb triggering Aura of Courage 4 times gets fixed. Reverting only WoB would help us a lot. Removing AP gain block from Lurkers Assault would be great addition because we wont stand a chance in longer fights even with WoB reverted.
DF Bleeds damage back to previous is great since it would help low and mid tier TRs, wont affect end-game TRs since they dont use it anyway. Skullcracker duration increase is fantastic, it would give Executioner good run for his money. Currently there is bug with the Skullcracker mark not being extended by damage done, it stays at 6 seconds on Bosses. One with the Shadows increase is also nice and puts Saboteur int othe race with other two trees as well. Shadowborn increase sounds fair, it is weaker than m14 SoD bleed because it used to double dip and SoD itself already was toned town by 1/3 of the damage. Also Shadowborn wont be used everywhere, strictly for single target fights, it will be replaced on mobs and on bosses which have mobs around them.
Bottom line, we need some source of Power stat back, best would be WoB since it has hit us the most and since we need AP gain so much.
tbh i don't see why you need powerlooping that much other DPS classes don't have ability to powerloop and even the GWF class wich has a feat TIER 4 that gives some power only gives 12000 if you have somewhere near BIS gear so why should a TR have 2 dailies and an encounter that increase thier power by huge margins than that while other classes don't have such luxury ? just play the game with whaever powershare the party provide so i don't agree that powerlooping on TR should be reverted
Maybe TR needs a stackable classfeature like "Backstabber" stacks up to 3 times for the ammount of 12% (4/4 feated).
"BACKSTABBER" Your sneaky attacks cut deep, increasing your damage by 3% every time you backstab enemies with a single attack. Stacks up to 3 times. Rank2 Damage: +3% per stack , Rank3 Damage: +3% per stack, Rank4 Damage: +3% per stack
Like that you get a 36% dps increase, exposed weakness can be renamed into " Focussed Backstabber":
"FOCUSED BACKSTABBER" Focused BckstabberFeat Backstabber now has a 5/10/15/20/25% chance to grant a stack when stabbing an enemie in stealth. Additionally, Backstabber grants you .7/1.4/2.1/2.8/3.5% bonus damage per stack.
not sure if you are trying to make fun of the destroyer class feature but for your info we do not have high deflect and deflect severity like you guys do and no we don't hide in stealth and for starters 1) without the feat in destroyer tree that class feature is useless as it will only proc if u hit 3 enemies or more 2) our powers have lowest coefficient of all classes so the class makes up for it with thier high self buff wich happened to be good for scaling things 3)even the builds made for powersharing and looping can't get as much power as the TR does with thier skills so that was in itself very high self buff with skills like lashing blade that have a built in vorpal in them and all that was pretty op shadow of demise was a class in itself it did more dmg than the TR class itself do lmao
OK apart from asking for a class reroll, we should tell you why we think that the changes are terrible for PVE TRs.
Players should always discuss the reasons behind how they feel about changes. Saying you hate it is fine, but it doesn't open the door for any conversations back and forth and is far less likely to result in adjustments that you'd like to see. We do appreciate the different detailed feedback that has been left in the thread so far.
A change of this size is always going to bring up a lot thoughts, many of them unhappy, about how the class they're used to is changing. And in this case, some of the changes probably were a bit too far.
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough. It is also worth making sure everyone knows that Combat Advantage is not working on preview currently ( a fix has been made and hopefully will be in the next preview update). So take that into account with any testing that is being done.
Here are some adjustments we're looking into:
Low Blows: Reverted back to 5/10/15/20/25% Skullcracker: Base duration increased to 10 seconds Skullcracker: Bonus duration increased to 5 seconds One With the Shadows: Damage bonus increased to 40% Shadowborn: Damage increased to 20/40/60/80/100 Duelist's Flurry: Bleed damage restored to previous amount
I guess its fair enough that Power looping is targeted since the potential was endless even tho it rarely occurred in end-game since there is not time for it. I dont object to putting a stop to the WoB+ITC+CB interaction but at least give us one source of Power increase since we lost all 3. We need high AP gain and for that we need high Power stat because its crucial for us to overlap two Daily powers, because its not possible to compete with just one Daily buff. My suggestion is reverting Whirlwind of Blades to how it was. Power looping without CB giving Power is no longer possible and WoB itself is the greatest nerf because it now gives 40% damage increase while it used to give us ~90% damage increase(without Power loop with CB). You can also nerf WoB to 10% Power per target hit but i dont recommend that because TR will lose large portion of damage when Smoke bomb triggering Aura of Courage 4 times gets fixed. Reverting only WoB would help us a lot. Removing AP gain block from Lurkers Assault would be great addition because we wont stand a chance in longer fights even with WoB reverted.
DF Bleeds damage back to previous is great since it would help low and mid tier TRs, wont affect end-game TRs since they dont use it anyway. Skullcracker duration increase is fantastic, it would give Executioner good run for his money. Currently there is bug with the Skullcracker mark not being extended by damage done, it stays at 6 seconds on Bosses. One with the Shadows increase is also nice and puts Saboteur int othe race with other two trees as well. Shadowborn increase sounds fair, it is weaker than m14 SoD bleed because it used to double dip and SoD itself already was toned town by 1/3 of the damage. Also Shadowborn wont be used everywhere, strictly for single target fights, it will be replaced on mobs and on bosses which have mobs around them.
Bottom line, we need some source of Power stat back, best would be WoB since it has hit us the most and since we need AP gain so much.
tbh i don't see why you need powerlooping that much other DPS classes don't have ability to powerloop and even the GWF class wich has a feat TIER 4 that gives some power only gives 12000 if you have somewhere near BIS gear so why should a TR have 2 dailies and an encounter that increase thier power by huge margins than that while other classes don't have such luxury ? just play the game with whaever powershare the party provide so i don't agree that powerlooping on TR should be reverted
Maybe TR needs a stackable classfeature like "Backstabber" stacks up to 3 times for the ammount of 12% (4/4 feated).
"BACKSTABBER" Your sneaky attacks cut deep, increasing your damage by 3% every time you backstab enemies with a single attack. Stacks up to 3 times. Rank2 Damage: +3% per stack , Rank3 Damage: +3% per stack, Rank4 Damage: +3% per stack
Like that you get a 36% dps increase, exposed weakness can be renamed into " Focussed Backstabber":
"FOCUSED BACKSTABBER" Focused BckstabberFeat Backstabber now has a 5/10/15/20/25% chance to grant a stack when stabbing an enemie in stealth. Additionally, Backstabber grants you .7/1.4/2.1/2.8/3.5% bonus damage per stack.
not sure if you are trying to make fun of the destroyer class feature but for your info we do not have high deflect and deflect severity like you guys do and no we don't hide in stealth and for starters 1) without the feat in destroyer tree that class feature is useless as it will only proc if u hit 3 enemies or more 2) our powers have lowest coefficient of all classes so the class makes up for it with thier high self buff wich happened to be good for scaling things 3)even the builds made for powersharing and looping can't get as much power as the TR does with thier skills so that was in itself very high self buff with skills like lashing blade that have a built in vorpal in them and all that was pretty op shadow of demise was a class in itself it did more dmg than the TR class itself do lmao
Backstabber will be better I prettty much know what you point at, and for a small minority of top TR that´s the truth, the majority did not reach that level I´d say. TR rework should have been a quality improvement about playability of the class in a hole I think. There is no need to make powerloops mandatory to have a well performing class but playsstyle is like a pain in the a... I think there needs to be some better solutions and buffs are necessary from what i read.
> > tbh i don't see why you need powerlooping that much other DPS classes don't have ability to powerloop and even the GWF class wich has a feat TIER 4 that gives some power only gives 12000 if you have somewhere near BIS gear so why should a TR have 2 dailies and an encounter that increase thier power by huge margins than that while other classes don't have such luxury ? just play the game with whaever powershare the party provide so i don't agree that powerlooping on TR should be reverted
Did you actually read Blur's comment? He said he understood the need to remove power looping and supported it.
To answer your question though, TRs have a lower base damage than other DPS classes, for reasons I don't actually understand. Therefore we needed the additional power to modify the lower base damage to a comparable level of other dps class that have a higher base damage and don't need as much power to get to the same point.
A simple example, the GWFs primal has a base damage of 2,345-2,866 whereas the TRs is 977-1194 x2 weapons for total 1,944-2,388. Our *maximum* weapon damage is only slightly more than the GWFs *minimum* weapon damage, and the GWFs max is 20% higher than the TRs. So we need to stack power much higher to compete.
not sure if you are trying to make fun of the destroyer class feature but for your info we do not have high deflect and deflect severity like you guys do and no we don't hide in stealth and for starters
OK first of all, do you see TRs complaining and asking the nerf of GWFs who by they way are statistically the best DPS class since MOD 5/6. Moving past this, lets see what you are saying. Deflect is a stat, if you want high deflect just use the proper gear, ability stats and enchantments, also its pretty much useless in end-game PVE. Deflect severity, yes we have 50% deflect severity as opposed to your 25%, I am perfectly fine to trade it with your HPs and Armor class and general tankyness, deal? Finally "hide in stealth" how many times have you seen PVE TRs hide in stealth? Are you confusing PVE with PVP again?
Players should always discuss the reasons behind how they feel about changes. Saying you hate it is fine, but it doesn't open the door for any conversations back and forth and is far less likely to result in adjustments that you'd like to see. We do appreciate the different detailed feedback that has been left in the thread so far.
A change of this size is always going to bring up a lot thoughts, many of them unhappy, about how the class they're used to is changing. And in this case, some of the changes probably were a bit too far.
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough. It is also worth making sure everyone knows that Combat Advantage is not working on preview currently ( a fix has been made and hopefully will be in the next preview update). So take that into account with any testing that is being done.
Here are some adjustments we're looking into:
Low Blows: Reverted back to 5/10/15/20/25% Skullcracker: Base duration increased to 10 seconds Skullcracker: Bonus duration increased to 5 seconds One With the Shadows: Damage bonus increased to 40% Shadowborn: Damage increased to 20/40/60/80/100 Duelist's Flurry: Bleed damage restored to previous amount
It's far to be enough.
No matter wich Feat Tree we choses to play, since WK path will still far behind MI, we will use the 2 most effective MI Class Features : Invisible Infiltrator and Infiltrator's Action.
They are and will be the heart of all endgame builds, since one give us Stealth+Damage Bonus, and the other CA out of stealth + Damage Bonus (from off-hand power).
Our Biggests Damages buffs come from Stealth and Stealth side effects.
Since one Class Feature allow us to regain Stealth when we use a Daily, added to a substantial Damage Bonus (from the Class Features themselves AND the Power granted by Dailies), this force us to focus on Dailies, and every possible synergy working around the use of Dailies and the gain of Action Points to be able to compete with other DPS classes.
I understand the Powerloop (while powerloop is a reality only in long fights, not so often in endgame content) nerf, but, out of the Powerloop, you abduct all our capacities to increase our power.
Increasing our power grant us the ability to gain Action Point faster (thanks to Artificers bonuses), so more Dailies equate to more Stealth+Stealth feats Side effects+Class Features Damage Buffs.
Abducting your ability to increase our power reduce in the same time, our damages (less power), our ability to rebuild our action points faster, so our ability to use more Dailies, so this reduce the effectiveness of all of our Dailies Synergies.
It's totally independant of wich Tree is used.
Sabo, Scound, Exe will face the same issue : less Dailies, less damages bonuses, less synergies.
It's a chain reaction resulting in an overall loss of Damages for the class, far to be compensated by the feats/power changes you want to push.
You can easily resolve this.
Give us the possibility to play something else than II+IA class features. Not with a nerf of thoses class features, but with a buff of others, make them competitives.
Cooldowns Reduction from Sneak Attack, for ex, is a good idea, but not enought to be competitive against II or IA damages bonus/Stealth gain.
First Strike is a good Damage Boost on paper, but no one use it in pve cause it's not viable in real fight condition. Make it a Class Feature version of ShadowBorn and maybe we will use it.
Tenacious Concealment was almost useless before, and with the stealth changes you want to push, it's even more useless. Rework it to something granting us an advantage/buff/boost.
Give us the possibility to be less dependant of buff dailies (WoB, LA, old CB) and Dailies synergies, you just have to buff other mechanics/synergies.
No ?
Buff/Rework others dailies to be competitives, then, instead of just nerfing WoB and CB. Give us something else than a nerf and small feat trees improvements.
No ?
So give us more abilities to gain action points (and no, Tactics is not competitive against II and IA), more damage Bonus from WoB/CB/LA and remove the AP Gain Block for LA.
An other solution could be to up the Damage Bonus of WoB to +10% per hit, for a max of 7 mob hited, AND, a conditional effect like "if only one target is hited, you gain 30% Damage Bonus" (on par with LA).
Here is more detailed explanation of what effects the rework has had on PVP TR powers so far, this list doesn't include all powers mentioned in the rework but it does bring up most of them. This list is broken into 2 parts, here is part 1:
Stealth Rework:
Increasing stealth recharge speed to 12.5 seconds so far was a mild nerf in PVP but nothing super noticeable so far.
Making stealth reveal us after we have attacked was a fairly strong nerf when I ran my tests, but a good one. Granted, TRs usually consume all of their stealth after hitting with an encounter power so this doesn't have much of an effect on that. What it does effect is your ability to use your at wills from stealth. This change makes spamming cloud of steel or harrying people with gloaming cut for example, much riskyer than before. This nerf also reduces how much room there is for error when playing a PVP TR and will make people have to plan their attacks more carefully. Less skilled TRs will end up revealing themselves at bad moments often.
I do have one mild concern regarding this nerf, I will have to test this more directly to be sure but I suspect my reflect boons were revealing me when I was dueling on preview. The stealth change states that DOT effects aren't supposed to remove you from stealth but not all reflect boons fall under the category of DOTs. While a lot of people stopped running reflect boons in PVP when mane of the manticore came out, I seem to benefit the majority of the time from these types of boons and rarely get killed by manes anyway, thus I frequently run them in spite of the risks. If it turns out that reflect boons really do reveal you, I would like to request reflect damage from places like boons and the new scoundrel feat get the same treatment as DOTs and not reveal you from stealth.
Bloodbath:
The biggest nerf was to bloodbath, it was reduced to 2 seconds down from 2.7 seconds, this at first glance looked like a small nerf but it proved to be a very potent nerf after testing.
Bloodbath was doing monstrous dps on live but on preview, it barely scratches some of the players it used to absolutely wreck. At least against some players, you can still milk an okish amount of dps from bloodbath if you slot oppressive darkness and give it your all, but in all honesty, this power probably won't be viable until CA damage gets fixed on preview.
Post CA fix, it may be possible for M15 sabotuer TRs to make this power do more damage than the devs desire thanks to their feats having a stronger emphasis on piercing damage and extra resistance ignored. I doubt they will be able to make bloodbath do an OP amount of damage even with their upgraded feats but its something to keep an eye out for. I will need to run more tests on this when the next preview patch is added.
If bloodbath does turn out to be too powerful on M15 sabotuer TRs in PVP, you could consider nerfing bloodbath again by removing the buggy interaction bloodbath has with 3 of our passive powers. In short, using bloodbath causes infiltrator's action, invisible infiltrator, and razor action to give your their buff X2 instead of X1. Each successive BB you do before these passives wear off adds another X2 of their damage buffs. So you get X4, X6, and momentarily can get X8 of these passive's damage bonuses. This on live right now, is the main source of BB's crazy damage and also buffs your other attacks by a large amount.
However, its worth mentioning that if recovery is nerfed in PVP, my proposed emergency followup nerf to bloodbath definitely won't be needed since that extra passive dps is reliant on you spamming bloodbath as often as possible.
Courage Breaker:
Courage breaker on preview seems like it will be a meta power that will never leave most TR's bars. While many TRs do still keep CB on their bars on on live, bloodbath steals the show in the majority of situations. In M15, people will likely use more CB now that BB has been toned down. Though you may see some TRs trying out lurker's assault and shocking execution as well since the performance gap between these 4 dailies won't be quite as lopsided.
Overall, courage breaker seems slightly more powerful on preview than it is on live after my tests.
The 8 second duration in particular made this power easier to maintain against a single target than the version on live.
The mild nerf to the slow was noticeable but the slow is still very potent against non speed build enemies. Against speed builds, this nerf is more significant.
This power as things currently stand, didn't need the improvement in PVP since it was already good. However, if a recovery nerf is made to PVP, that 8 seconds will likely be just enough to make this power stay useful without it being too strong or too weak.
Duelist's Flurry:
Duelist's flurry's damage has dropped too much in PVP. You can milk an okish amount of damage out of duelist's flurry with a lot of effort but it still seems too watered down.
While its easy to see why the devs thought reducing the damage from the bleeds would be needed to avoid overbuffing this power, the way the reworked DF turned out made the bleed damage nerf unnecessary. This is because the number of hits in the flurry was reduced to 6 and with a 100% chance to proc a bleed on every hit, you gain exactly 6 bleeds per DF. This means the reworked version of DF only builds bleed stacks slightly faster than it did before. Before, it would take 2 to 3 DFs to reach max bleeds. The new version of DF takes just under 2 full DFs to reach max bleeds.
The total damage nerf to DF is also more than just the 40% from the bleeds since you also need to take into account the damage lost from the flurry hits that were removed, not just the bleed.
You also need to take into account that gloaming cut was just buffed a lot and will be much stronger than M15 duelist's flurry if duelist's flurry's damage isn't increased accordingly.
Proposed solution to M15 duelist's flurry's low dps output: It looks like the devs in their response post are proposing the same fix I was going to, which was to restore the 40% missing bleed damage. There is a possibility that even with the 40% restored bleed damage, M15 Duelist's flurry would still be a little weaker than gloaming cut, but having the missing bleed damage restored is still a good enough improvement that it would become viable again.
For the most part, I like the way DF was reworked, it is much smoother to work with now and I was happy to see that the power still looks and feels a lot like the old version. The 100% chance to proc bleeds is a nice improvement since you seldom reached a high bleed stack count using the old version; this is because your opponents try to get away from your attacks in PVP and each swing only had a chance to apply a bleed stack. The reworked version of DF likely won't reach the full 10 bleed stacks very often (for the same reasons as above) but you should be able to reach a high bleed stack count more often than you could before. The reduction in how much stealth DF consumes is also mildly helpful.
Smoke Bomb:
The 30% nerf to smoke bomb's damage is noticeable in PVP but not crippling since most of SB's value to PVPers is the daze effect. The executioner tree lost more damage from this nerf than the other 2 TR trees did. This is because smokebomb's damage is one of the things you use to power up shadow of demise. Overall, this is a significant damage nerf but not a particularly worrisome one so far.
The loss of smokebomb's slow effect will help PVP a little bit since its absence will probably end one of the worst control bugs in PVP. On live right now, there is an old bug that causes CB to set a player's movement to 0 instead of slowing them like it normally does, this basically roots them. This bug is thought to be caused by interacting with smoke bomb's slow and doesn't wear off when smokebomb ends, it only ends once courage breaker has worn off.
Smokebomb now grants combat advantage when used from stealth. This is helpful but really, all control effects should grant combat advantage gamewide.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
Part 2 of the Rework's Effects on TR Powers in PVP, So far:
Impossible to catch:
Reducing ITC's duration to 4 seconds was a mild nerf that I take 0 issue with. It did seem to slightly reduce how much I lean on ITC in PVP.
ITC now comes off of cooldown 2 seconds faster than it did before, this is a peculiar decision to make since one of the major complaints about this power in PVP is that TRs can use it too often. However, the recovery nerf PVP is likely to get soon should render this mild buff irrelevant.
The stealthed effect that gives you damage reduction is mostly useless on both live and preview, people don't usually trigger ITC from stealth since it already provides excellent protection without any need for additional defenses.
The reworked version grants an additional 25% movement speed. This bonus, while more appealing than the DR reduction isn't something a lot of people are going to use much. The only times I might use it are when I am about to run out of stealth and am not close enough to a foe to attack. This buff also seems to have been intended to help make up for all the speed nerfs TRs got with this rework. As I mentioned in a previous post, it isn't a suitable replacement for our lost movement speed since most of the other speed bonuses we lost were permanent increases. And again, it isn't worth burning stealth on ITC, we have more important things to use our stealth for.
Gloaming Cut:
The buffs and mechanic smoothdowns this power got are very nice.
The 25% extra damage added to gloaming cut and the 45% increase in cast time in particular will make this a powerful attack, not that it wasn't already good in PVP. From my tests, its cast speed was a lot better than it is on live but still slow enough that this power will be fairly easy to dodge, considering the attack hits hard, that should be a reasonable tradeoff though. Again, won't know for sure exactly how powerful this attack will be until CA damage is fixed, the attack was dealing usable damage on preview but wasn't particularly strong due to the lack of CA.
The stealth recharge speed from this power I haven't played with much yet, I mostly was paying attention to its damage, but this should be a nice feature as well.
This is an attack that will need to be watched to see if it becomes too strong when combined with the scoundrel and sabotuer feat reworks. It likely it will be fine but its possible the revised tweaks to the scou and sabo capstones that haven't made it to preview yet will change that and could make this power OP in PVP.
If this power does become too powerful in PVP, my suggestion is to reduce this attack's damage in PVP only.
Sly Flourish:
Almost nothing with this at will changed that is relevant in PVP, it will likely remain just as viable as it is on live. Sly flourish on live is good but less commonly used right now.
The debuff will take longer to build up so technically this power is slightly nerfed but it won't be very noticeable.
Cloud of Steel:
The damage increase this attack got did noticeably improve this attack's damage on preview. Considering its one of the few attacks I tested that didn't seem super watered down on preview, this attack should do decent damage once CA is fixed. It won't be cutting any giant chunks out of people but should be effective in a wider range of situations than before.
Deft Strike:
So far, I'm not seeing much difference between this attack on preview and the version on live. I did notice that against a test dummy, it was teleporting me to the front of the target instead of the back. Not yet sure if it will also do this against players but figured it should be mentioned nonetheless.
Oppressive darkness:
This passive's damage was buffed by 39%. The difference in damage between having it slotted and having a different passive slotted was very noticeable and made several powers that weren't hitting for squat at least usable on preview, albeit those powers did still feel watered down.
This power will need to be watched as this power in its buffed state could prove too powerful when combined with sabotuer's other piercing damage feats + the other big damage upgrades their tree will have added to preview soon + CA damage. Oppressive darkness was already a popular passive power in PVP on live.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
Maybe what we need is something to transfer our TR's to another class.
To be blunt, after several years or waiting and promises that were never kept and now this.... the well of trust is gone.
I do not believe the developer(s) who came up with this even play TR's in game. There are just too many obvious mistakes. I will not waste time explaining fixes to issues caused by someone I do not believe ever understands the mechanics of the class in question. Plenty of people are doing that just fine. This is not an insult, just an opinion of someone who has played only TR’s.
I feel insulted by that announcement yesterday, "this is what we have been waiting for".... Really?
It felt like a controlled burn to stop a forest fire.
Maybe the company that owns this game and devs do have an idea how dissatisfied people are, maybe they do not. Only a very small minority know about the forums or ever post…I suspect the owners of the company do not...The profit is all they should be interested in. When that is affected I am sure they will come looking for a reason. Lets hope they find this forum.
Most of my guild and alliance was ready to go to other realms due to something else but I had held back due to the investment I have in the one class and character I run, a TR. My voice of moderation is stilled until I see where this goes.
Produce a method for us to take our TR's to another class...
as saboteur, I am happy, now I can outdps exe at bosses,lol
Sure, at less than 50% the minimum effectiveness required even when maximum overgeared (18k+).
You'll be a joke like the rest of the class only in your case people will start holding you accountable for the changes happening.
At first glance sabo buffs looked great. but encounters getting that extra 10% (from 20% to 30%) doesn't make up for much. at will powers up to 30% now, that's cool, but not with a highly nerfed DF. Doesn't make up for it. I tried swinging away with just sly or even throwing clouds of steel. Does not come close to just using the new crappy DF. Even did a disheartening strike then some sly flourishes and tried to work out the best at will spam I could to take advantage of the new "sabo encounter buff" it, it was still less damage then just using the newly nerfed DF. 30% at-will buff buff plus new OD "Buff" (which OD procs were NERFED on the DF) on any encounter was still less than just using the newly nerfed DF. Even though sly flourish can stack up up to 12% debuff now, it's still a nerf because you have to complete 3 complete combos. If you have your encounter rotations working well, you don't really have time to swing 3 full sly flourish combos in between powers. generally you can do one sly combo, then bust out some encounters, one combo, daily, encounters etc. So yes, sabo feet buffs were added, but every usable power/encounter was nerfed well beyond those buffs. Stuff that looks like a buff, blade flurry for example, actually isn't. The 2 extra hits bug was fixed so it just hits 4 instead of 6 times now so its basically the same. A stealthed blade flurry can hit hard, but then just takes away my stealth from when i actually need it... OD increased in 39% damage? only hits twice now on DF instead of the 10 or 12 times it was before. I spent 3 hours on preview server literally trying to find a "buff" and there just isn't. DF STILL hits harder than the other at wills, and it was kneecapped pretty hard. On the brightside, my Path of blade does 10% more damage with the new sabo buff...ha.
***Here's a rework request. Let path of blade proc more stuff like Oppressive darkness, lightning enchant (wouldn't that be hamster) or buff it's damage a bit. It's a very cool power, but limited by the fact it only procs anything on first cast, and damage is only "moderately ok" when used from stealth on trash.
Let's actually take a look at the abilities and more importantly, let's look at SoD because most of the changes specific to the other paths are fine in general.
Executioner is the most used for a reason, it's the only one of the paths that actually fits the TR class at the most basic level. But let's face it: TR has basically NEVER been in a good place until Mod 14, where except for the most heavily overgeared (something I honestly think needs to be heavily discussed in another topic) it made TRs a class on par with the other DPS and effective at Single Target killing.
But the issue here, the only actual issue; is Power looping. Something only the most overgeared players can do consistently.
How do we combat it? Not in any of the ways you are proposing.
Let's look at the fundamental POINT of a TR:
- To deal high Damage in a short burst while maintaining average damage outside of that timeframe. - To deal a single, extremely powerful hit that requires optimal use of all your resources to maximize.
Now all of these suggestions are for PvE only:
- Whirlwind of Blades: Increases the TRs Power by 10% per target hit for 6 seconds (Max 5 Targets for 50%). Ends stealth and negates SoD effect on targets, resetting its CD.*
- Courage Breaker (New): Strikes a Single target, hitting 5 times and dealing 10/20/30/40/50% more damage with each hit and granting a 50% Power increase for 6 seconds after dealing the final hit. Ends stealth and negates SoD effect on the target, resetting its CD.*
*see SoD below for details.
Outside of SE (which is not and should not be made PvE viable) TRs lack a "damaging" Daily and while they don't really NEED one, a multi hitting Single target Daily such as this would provide a small damage consistency increase while also providing the Power buff they require to make the rest of their kit effective. With the separation of the two Dailies' usability in tandem, the Power loop would be essentially halted. By negating the SoD effect with the proposed change below, the changes here can be put to good use, preserving it if for some reason you feel your rotation has been sub-optimal and you wish to try again.
This covers the Damage Burst portion of the TR's purpose.
As for the Single, powerful hit; well let's take a look at 4 things: Lurker's Assault, ITC, SoD and Gloaming Cut.
- Impossible to Catch: When not in Stealth, grants 25% Movement speed bonus, 10% Damage Resistance and 100% Deflection Chance as well as immunity to most CC effects. Lasts 6 seconds and breaks free of CC effects on activation. - Impossible to Catch: When in Stealth, grants a 20% Power boost, Immunity to most CC effects and 100% Deflection chance. Resets the CD of Lashing Blade. Lasts until Stealth ends.
- Lurker's Assault: Enters Stealth and teleports you to your target. Halts All AP Gain while active, regardless of source. While active you remain in Stealth for it's duration, including all Feat/Power bonuses this incurs and gain a 10% Power boost. Lasts 10 seconds.
- Shadow of Demise: Deals 50% of the damage done during its duration as Piercing Damage. Can be triggered by At-Wills while in Stealth. Lasts 6 seconds. Cannot deal more than 50% of a target's max HP in damage. Can only be applied once every 40 seconds (CD begins on application).
- Gloaming Cut: (In addition to current effects) When striking a target affected by SoD, its Duration is increased by 2 seconds, to a maximum of 6 seconds but your Power is reduced by 15% each time. Effect ends when SoD end procs.
This will result in a single, extremely powerful hit, that has a limit of effectiveness that is easier to reach as you get more powerful and won't allow for one shots like old style overgeared TRs.
An example of a rotation would look something like this:
SF(3 hits) x2/3->LA->SF(1 hit) to proc. SoD->DS->LB->ItC->LB->GC->DS/SF(1/2 hits if DS is on CD)->GC->DS/SF(1/3 hits if DS is on CD)->GC->LA ends around here->Filler Damage->SoD end proc.
Comments
U could have removed power looping, but still let the dailies / encounters increase our power. U did it when u changed WWoB to not loop with itself, but just overwrite the previous buff. Why not add the other encounters / daily into this aswell? Nerfing everything else because some ppl use power looping, a thing u are removing. U are cracking nuts with a sledgehammer here.
At live right now, not using ITC, only using CB or WWoB not both. I am able to compete in endgame. Still i often get beat by GWFs, and i know lots of HRs and GFs can beat me too. I am not overpowered. And this is a 17.2k TR who gets their DMG from AP gains so they can do SoD every 8-10 sec. And from trying to have bleed stacking. It is nice to see the bleed nerf removed, but there is nothing in ur suggestions thats making up for the dmg lost from the self buffs. And removing hits from duelist doesnt just lose 2 hits of atwills, but also 2 hits of AoC and weapon enchantment. Things have a bigger impact that u seam to wanna understand once in a group compared to solo.
I hope in the future u will look at the normal TRs when u decide class changes. Not just the big guns.
To put it in perspective, Executioner was JUST good enough when massively overgeared to be a decent DPS. It will become half of that effectiveness with these changes.
You'll be a joke like the rest of the class only in your case people will start holding you accountable for the changes happening.
I hope in the future u will look at the normal TRs when u decide class changes. Not just the big guns.
I think this sums it up... since the TR's were seriously nerfed around the time of the Mod that I do not care to mention by number ( I still have nightmares about that one...) its been a continuous downhill progression for the average/solo running TR. Take the speed away and you destroy what the class was about... fast and nimble.
Please don't turn the Trickster Rogue into the Tortured or Tortoise Rogue... I have 4 of them by the way.....
Here is a little idea: introduce a backstab mulitplier from stealth for enocunter or at will or a class feat.
I know there is a first strike class feat and feat in exe tree, but it could be something to think about.
> In time we will be adjusted and great again! Also consider that this new mod is not complicated or hard to do. Who cares if you don't get invited to end game content. That content will just be replaced by something better in the end like always.
> Stick it out. Ride it out. TR will prevail!
This makes no sense considering other classes(ahem, gwfs) have been top tier dps for several mods without the devs hitting them with the nerf bat. shot ourselves in the foot by playing the spec that puts out the best dps?! lmmfao, really? how much variety do you see in gwf or dps gf specs?
your whole premise is that we should be tr cheerleaders and not expect to be viable main dps at end game because 'goooooo TRs!'. No, this isn't balancing classes, these changes will relegate a class that was finally made a viable main dps to being laughably unsuitable for that role. At least DO DCs can switch to AC if they've got the gear already, but TRs will have no niche whatsoever if these changes go live.
I'm not going to leave the game just yet. I'll wait to see what the end result is, but i'm certainly not going to invest in this game until that result is clear.
> > @spargu1 said:
> > STOP CRYING! These changes are not that bad. I've tested them on preview, just git gud
ppl still pvp in this game? lol
Individual dailies as they are now, are more or less balanced for PVE content, so problem arises when you start stacking them combined with group buffs. So why not simply prevent the stacking of dailies for all classes? When ever a daily is used it can overwrite the previous one. Wouldn't that be a simple solution?
Also most people wouldn't be able to stack dailies without the Artificer's Persuasion. So why don't you change or remove that one? combined with the power boost of the support classes, the AP gain and Recovery boost goes a long way in helping people stack dailies. Wouldn't tweaking or remove Artificer's Persuasion be simpler? And do you think it was only the TRs that were using that one?
I also think that it is great that you want to resurrect the other feat trees and the Whisper Knife spec. I am 100% behind you on this one. However do you have to break the EXE feat tree? If something is working why mess with it? The EXE feat tree was viable without power looping. Viable not overpowered! Remove the power looping by not allowing dailies to stack (also maybe think about tweaking the Artificer's Persuasion) and problem solved. The other feat trees could definitely use some love, but taking the EXE down with them is not what every TR was thinking when we wanted to see a balanced option of feat trees.
Just my two cents for now.
That's the problem, we needed said power loop to compete with other classes, now it was taken out and we were given back 1/4 of what it was worth *this has been the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals from maybe ever*
"BACKSTABBER"
Your sneaky attacks cut deep, increasing your damage by 3% every time you backstab enemies with a single attack.
Stacks up to 3 times.
Rank2 Damage: +3% per stack , Rank3 Damage: +3% per stack, Rank4 Damage: +3% per stack
Like that you get a 36% dps increase, exposed weakness can be renamed into " Focused Backstabber":
"FOCUSED BACKSTABBER"
Focused BckstabberFeat
Backstabber now has a 5/10/15/20/25% chance to grant a stack when stabbing an enemie in stealth. Additionally, Backstabber grants you .7/1.4/2.1/2.8/3.5% bonus damage per stack.
That´s a damage increase like 3x15.5%=46.5% from one classfeature+ a feat ! Awesome, would also synergize in PVP with stealthed Bloodbath pretty good
1) without the feat in destroyer tree that class feature is useless as it will only proc if u hit 3 enemies or more
2) our powers have lowest coefficient of all classes so the class makes up for it with thier high self buff wich happened to be good for scaling things
3)even the builds made for powersharing and looping can't get as much power as the TR does with thier skills so that was in itself very high self buff with skills like lashing blade that have a built in vorpal in them and all that was pretty op shadow of demise was a class in itself it did more dmg than the TR class itself do lmao
I prettty much know what you point at, and for a small minority of top TR that´s the truth, the majority did not reach that level I´d say.
TR rework should have been a quality improvement about playability of the class in a hole I think. There is no need to make powerloops mandatory to have a well performing class but playsstyle is like a pain in the a...
I think there needs to be some better solutions and buffs are necessary from what i read.
> tbh i don't see why you need powerlooping that much
Did you actually read Blur's comment? He said he understood the need to remove power looping and supported it.
To answer your question though, TRs have a lower base damage than other DPS classes, for reasons I don't actually understand. Therefore we needed the additional power to modify the lower base damage to a comparable level of other dps class that have a higher base damage and don't need as much power to get to the same point.
A simple example, the GWFs primal has a base damage of 2,345-2,866 whereas the TRs is 977-1194 x2 weapons for total 1,944-2,388. Our *maximum* weapon damage is only slightly more than the GWFs *minimum* weapon damage, and the GWFs max is 20% higher than the TRs. So we need to stack power much higher to compete.
No matter wich Feat Tree we choses to play, since WK path will still far behind MI, we will use the 2 most effective MI Class Features : Invisible Infiltrator and Infiltrator's Action.
They are and will be the heart of all endgame builds, since one give us Stealth+Damage Bonus, and the other CA out of stealth + Damage Bonus (from off-hand power).
Our Biggests Damages buffs come from Stealth and Stealth side effects.
Since one Class Feature allow us to regain Stealth when we use a Daily, added to a substantial Damage Bonus (from the Class Features themselves AND the Power granted by Dailies), this force us to focus on Dailies, and every possible synergy working around the use of Dailies and the gain of Action Points to be able to compete with other DPS classes.
I understand the Powerloop (while powerloop is a reality only in long fights, not so often in endgame content) nerf, but, out of the Powerloop, you abduct all our capacities to increase our power.
Increasing our power grant us the ability to gain Action Point faster (thanks to Artificers bonuses), so more Dailies equate to more Stealth+Stealth feats Side effects+Class Features Damage Buffs.
Abducting your ability to increase our power reduce in the same time, our damages (less power), our ability to rebuild our action points faster, so our ability to use more Dailies, so this reduce the effectiveness of all of our Dailies Synergies.
It's totally independant of wich Tree is used.
Sabo, Scound, Exe will face the same issue : less Dailies, less damages bonuses, less synergies.
It's a chain reaction resulting in an overall loss of Damages for the class, far to be compensated by the feats/power changes you want to push.
You can easily resolve this.
Give us the possibility to play something else than II+IA class features. Not with a nerf of thoses class features, but with a buff of others, make them competitives.
Cooldowns Reduction from Sneak Attack, for ex, is a good idea, but not enought to be competitive against II or IA damages bonus/Stealth gain.
First Strike is a good Damage Boost on paper, but no one use it in pve cause it's not viable in real fight condition. Make it a Class Feature version of ShadowBorn and maybe we will use it.
Tenacious Concealment was almost useless before, and with the stealth changes you want to push, it's even more useless. Rework it to something granting us an advantage/buff/boost.
Give us the possibility to be less dependant of buff dailies (WoB, LA, old CB) and Dailies synergies, you just have to buff other mechanics/synergies.
No ?
Buff/Rework others dailies to be competitives, then, instead of just nerfing WoB and CB. Give us something else than a nerf and small feat trees improvements.
No ?
So give us more abilities to gain action points (and no, Tactics is not competitive against II and IA), more damage Bonus from WoB/CB/LA and remove the AP Gain Block for LA.
An other solution could be to up the Damage Bonus of WoB to +10% per hit, for a max of 7 mob hited, AND, a conditional effect like "if only one target is hited, you gain 30% Damage Bonus" (on par with LA).
Here is more detailed explanation of what effects the rework has had on PVP TR powers so far, this list doesn't include all powers mentioned in the rework but it does bring up most of them. This list is broken into 2 parts, here is part 1:
Stealth Rework:
Increasing stealth recharge speed to 12.5 seconds so far was a mild nerf in PVP but nothing super noticeable so far.
Making stealth reveal us after we have attacked was a fairly strong nerf when I ran my tests, but a good one.
Granted, TRs usually consume all of their stealth after hitting with an encounter power so this doesn't have much of an effect on that. What it does effect is your ability to use your at wills from stealth. This change makes spamming cloud of steel or harrying people with gloaming cut for example, much riskyer than before. This nerf also reduces how much room there is for error when playing a PVP TR and will make people have to plan their attacks more carefully. Less skilled TRs will end up revealing themselves at bad moments often.
I do have one mild concern regarding this nerf, I will have to test this more directly to be sure but I suspect my reflect boons were revealing me when I was dueling on preview. The stealth change states that DOT effects aren't supposed to remove you from stealth but not all reflect boons fall under the category of DOTs. While a lot of people stopped running reflect boons in PVP when mane of the manticore came out, I seem to benefit the majority of the time from these types of boons and rarely get killed by manes anyway, thus I frequently run them in spite of the risks. If it turns out that reflect boons really do reveal you, I would like to request reflect damage from places like boons and the new scoundrel feat get the same treatment as DOTs and not reveal you from stealth.
Bloodbath:
The biggest nerf was to bloodbath, it was reduced to 2 seconds down from 2.7 seconds, this at first glance looked like a small nerf but it proved to be a very potent nerf after testing.
Bloodbath was doing monstrous dps on live but on preview, it barely scratches some of the players it used to absolutely wreck. At least against some players, you can still milk an okish amount of dps from bloodbath if you slot oppressive darkness and give it your all, but in all honesty, this power probably won't be viable until CA damage gets fixed on preview.
Post CA fix, it may be possible for M15 sabotuer TRs to make this power do more damage than the devs desire thanks to their feats having a stronger emphasis on piercing damage and extra resistance ignored. I doubt they will be able to make bloodbath do an OP amount of damage even with their upgraded feats but its something to keep an eye out for. I will need to run more tests on this when the next preview patch is added.
If bloodbath does turn out to be too powerful on M15 sabotuer TRs in PVP, you could consider nerfing bloodbath again by removing the buggy interaction bloodbath has with 3 of our passive powers. In short, using bloodbath causes infiltrator's action, invisible infiltrator, and razor action to give your their buff X2 instead of X1. Each successive BB you do before these passives wear off adds another X2 of their damage buffs. So you get X4, X6, and momentarily can get X8 of these passive's damage bonuses. This on live right now, is the main source of BB's crazy damage and also buffs your other attacks by a large amount.
However, its worth mentioning that if recovery is nerfed in PVP, my proposed emergency followup nerf to bloodbath definitely won't be needed since that extra passive dps is reliant on you spamming bloodbath as often as possible.
Courage Breaker:
Courage breaker on preview seems like it will be a meta power that will never leave most TR's bars. While many TRs do still keep CB on their bars on on live, bloodbath steals the show in the majority of situations. In M15, people will likely use more CB now that BB has been toned down. Though you may see some TRs trying out lurker's assault and shocking execution as well since the performance gap between these 4 dailies won't be quite as lopsided.
Overall, courage breaker seems slightly more powerful on preview than it is on live after my tests.
The 8 second duration in particular made this power easier to maintain against a single target than the version on live.
The mild nerf to the slow was noticeable but the slow is still very potent against non speed build enemies. Against speed builds, this nerf is more significant.
This power as things currently stand, didn't need the improvement in PVP since it was already good. However, if a recovery nerf is made to PVP, that 8 seconds will likely be just enough to make this power stay useful without it being too strong or too weak.
Duelist's Flurry:
Duelist's flurry's damage has dropped too much in PVP. You can milk an okish amount of damage out of duelist's flurry with a lot of effort but it still seems too watered down.
While its easy to see why the devs thought reducing the damage from the bleeds would be needed to avoid overbuffing this power, the way the reworked DF turned out made the bleed damage nerf unnecessary. This is because the number of hits in the flurry was reduced to 6 and with a 100% chance to proc a bleed on every hit, you gain exactly 6 bleeds per DF. This means the reworked version of DF only builds bleed stacks slightly faster than it did before. Before, it would take 2 to 3 DFs to reach max bleeds. The new version of DF takes just under 2 full DFs to reach max bleeds.
The total damage nerf to DF is also more than just the 40% from the bleeds since you also need to take into account the damage lost from the flurry hits that were removed, not just the bleed.
You also need to take into account that gloaming cut was just buffed a lot and will be much stronger than M15 duelist's flurry if duelist's flurry's damage isn't increased accordingly.
Proposed solution to M15 duelist's flurry's low dps output:
It looks like the devs in their response post are proposing the same fix I was going to, which was to restore the 40% missing bleed damage. There is a possibility that even with the 40% restored bleed damage, M15 Duelist's flurry would still be a little weaker than gloaming cut, but having the missing bleed damage restored is still a good enough improvement that it would become viable again.
For the most part, I like the way DF was reworked, it is much smoother to work with now and I was happy to see that the power still looks and feels a lot like the old version.
The 100% chance to proc bleeds is a nice improvement since you seldom reached a high bleed stack count using the old version; this is because your opponents try to get away from your attacks in PVP and each swing only had a chance to apply a bleed stack. The reworked version of DF likely won't reach the full 10 bleed stacks very often (for the same reasons as above) but you should be able to reach a high bleed stack count more often than you could before.
The reduction in how much stealth DF consumes is also mildly helpful.
Smoke Bomb:
The 30% nerf to smoke bomb's damage is noticeable in PVP but not crippling since most of SB's value to PVPers is the daze effect.
The executioner tree lost more damage from this nerf than the other 2 TR trees did. This is because smokebomb's damage is one of the things you use to power up shadow of demise.
Overall, this is a significant damage nerf but not a particularly worrisome one so far.
The loss of smokebomb's slow effect will help PVP a little bit since its absence will probably end one of the worst control bugs in PVP. On live right now, there is an old bug that causes CB to set a player's movement to 0 instead of slowing them like it normally does, this basically roots them. This bug is thought to be caused by interacting with smoke bomb's slow and doesn't wear off when smokebomb ends, it only ends once courage breaker has worn off.
Smokebomb now grants combat advantage when used from stealth. This is helpful but really, all control effects should grant combat advantage gamewide.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
Impossible to catch:
Reducing ITC's duration to 4 seconds was a mild nerf that I take 0 issue with. It did seem to slightly reduce how much I lean on ITC in PVP.
ITC now comes off of cooldown 2 seconds faster than it did before, this is a peculiar decision to make since one of the major complaints about this power in PVP is that TRs can use it too often. However, the recovery nerf PVP is likely to get soon should render this mild buff irrelevant.
The stealthed effect that gives you damage reduction is mostly useless on both live and preview, people don't usually trigger ITC from stealth since it already provides excellent protection without any need for additional defenses.
The reworked version grants an additional 25% movement speed. This bonus, while more appealing than the DR reduction isn't something a lot of people are going to use much. The only times I might use it are when I am about to run out of stealth and am not close enough to a foe to attack. This buff also seems to have been intended to help make up for all the speed nerfs TRs got with this rework. As I mentioned in a previous post, it isn't a suitable replacement for our lost movement speed since most of the other speed bonuses we lost were permanent increases. And again, it isn't worth burning stealth on ITC, we have more important things to use our stealth for.
Gloaming Cut:
The buffs and mechanic smoothdowns this power got are very nice.
The 25% extra damage added to gloaming cut and the 45% increase in cast time in particular will make this a powerful attack, not that it wasn't already good in PVP.
From my tests, its cast speed was a lot better than it is on live but still slow enough that this power will be fairly easy to dodge, considering the attack hits hard, that should be a reasonable tradeoff though.
Again, won't know for sure exactly how powerful this attack will be until CA damage is fixed, the attack was dealing usable damage on preview but wasn't particularly strong due to the lack of CA.
The stealth recharge speed from this power I haven't played with much yet, I mostly was paying attention to its damage, but this should be a nice feature as well.
This is an attack that will need to be watched to see if it becomes too strong when combined with the scoundrel and sabotuer feat reworks. It likely it will be fine but its possible the revised tweaks to the scou and sabo capstones that haven't made it to preview yet will change that and could make this power OP in PVP.
If this power does become too powerful in PVP, my suggestion is to reduce this attack's damage in PVP only.
Sly Flourish:
Almost nothing with this at will changed that is relevant in PVP, it will likely remain just as viable as it is on live. Sly flourish on live is good but less commonly used right now.
The debuff will take longer to build up so technically this power is slightly nerfed but it won't be very noticeable.
Cloud of Steel:
The damage increase this attack got did noticeably improve this attack's damage on preview. Considering its one of the few attacks I tested that didn't seem super watered down on preview, this attack should do decent damage once CA is fixed. It won't be cutting any giant chunks out of people but should be effective in a wider range of situations than before.
Deft Strike:
So far, I'm not seeing much difference between this attack on preview and the version on live.
I did notice that against a test dummy, it was teleporting me to the front of the target instead of the back. Not yet sure if it will also do this against players but figured it should be mentioned nonetheless.
Oppressive darkness:
This passive's damage was buffed by 39%. The difference in damage between having it slotted and having a different passive slotted was very noticeable and made several powers that weren't hitting for squat at least usable on preview, albeit those powers did still feel watered down.
This power will need to be watched as this power in its buffed state could prove too powerful when combined with sabotuer's other piercing damage feats + the other big damage upgrades their tree will have added to preview soon + CA damage.
Oppressive darkness was already a popular passive power in PVP on live.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
To be blunt, after several years or waiting and promises that were never kept and now this.... the well of trust is gone.
I do not believe the developer(s) who came up with this even play TR's in game. There are just too many obvious mistakes. I will not waste time explaining fixes to issues caused by someone I do not believe ever understands the mechanics of the class in question. Plenty of people are doing that just fine. This is not an insult, just an opinion of someone who has played only TR’s.
I feel insulted by that announcement yesterday, "this is what we have been waiting for".... Really?
It felt like a controlled burn to stop a forest fire.
Maybe the company that owns this game and devs do have an idea how dissatisfied people are, maybe they do not. Only a very small minority know about the forums or ever post…I suspect the owners of the company do not...The profit is all they should be interested in. When that is affected I am sure they will come looking for a reason. Lets hope they find this forum.
Most of my guild and alliance was ready to go to other realms due to something else but I had held back due to the investment I have in the one class and character I run, a TR. My voice of moderation is stilled until I see where this goes.
Produce a method for us to take our TR's to another class...
***Here's a rework request. Let path of blade proc more stuff like Oppressive darkness, lightning enchant (wouldn't that be hamster) or buff it's damage a bit. It's a very cool power, but limited by the fact it only procs anything on first cast, and damage is only "moderately ok" when used from stealth on trash.
Executioner is the most used for a reason, it's the only one of the paths that actually fits the TR class at the most basic level.
But let's face it: TR has basically NEVER been in a good place until Mod 14, where except for the most heavily overgeared (something I honestly think needs to be heavily discussed in another topic) it made TRs a class on par with the other DPS and effective at Single Target killing.
But the issue here, the only actual issue; is Power looping. Something only the most overgeared players can do consistently.
How do we combat it? Not in any of the ways you are proposing.
Let's look at the fundamental POINT of a TR:
- To deal high Damage in a short burst while maintaining average damage outside of that timeframe.
- To deal a single, extremely powerful hit that requires optimal use of all your resources to maximize.
Now all of these suggestions are for PvE only:
- Whirlwind of Blades: Increases the TRs Power by 10% per target hit for 6 seconds (Max 5 Targets for 50%). Ends stealth and negates SoD effect on targets, resetting its CD.*
- Courage Breaker (New): Strikes a Single target, hitting 5 times and dealing 10/20/30/40/50% more damage with each hit and granting a 50% Power increase for 6 seconds after dealing the final hit. Ends stealth and negates SoD effect on the target, resetting its CD.*
*see SoD below for details.
Outside of SE (which is not and should not be made PvE viable) TRs lack a "damaging" Daily and while they don't really NEED one, a multi hitting Single target Daily such as this would provide a small damage consistency increase while also providing the Power buff they require to make the rest of their kit effective. With the separation of the two Dailies' usability in tandem, the Power loop would be essentially halted. By negating the SoD effect with the proposed change below, the changes here can be put to good use, preserving it if for some reason you feel your rotation has been sub-optimal and you wish to try again.
This covers the Damage Burst portion of the TR's purpose.
As for the Single, powerful hit; well let's take a look at 4 things: Lurker's Assault, ITC, SoD and Gloaming Cut.
- Impossible to Catch: When not in Stealth, grants 25% Movement speed bonus, 10% Damage Resistance and 100% Deflection Chance as well as immunity to most CC effects. Lasts 6 seconds and breaks free of CC effects on activation.
- Impossible to Catch: When in Stealth, grants a 20% Power boost, Immunity to most CC effects and 100% Deflection chance. Resets the CD of Lashing Blade. Lasts until Stealth ends.
- Lurker's Assault: Enters Stealth and teleports you to your target. Halts All AP Gain while active, regardless of source. While active you remain in Stealth for it's duration, including all Feat/Power bonuses this incurs and gain a 10% Power boost. Lasts 10 seconds.
- Shadow of Demise: Deals 50% of the damage done during its duration as Piercing Damage. Can be triggered by At-Wills while in Stealth. Lasts 6 seconds. Cannot deal more than 50% of a target's max HP in damage. Can only be applied once every 40 seconds (CD begins on application).
- Gloaming Cut: (In addition to current effects) When striking a target affected by SoD, its Duration is increased by 2 seconds, to a maximum of 6 seconds but your Power is reduced by 15% each time. Effect ends when SoD end procs.
This will result in a single, extremely powerful hit, that has a limit of effectiveness that is easier to reach as you get more powerful and won't allow for one shots like old style overgeared TRs.
An example of a rotation would look something like this:
SF(3 hits) x2/3->LA->SF(1 hit) to proc. SoD->DS->LB->ItC->LB->GC->DS/SF(1/2 hits if DS is on CD)->GC->DS/SF(1/3 hits if DS is on CD)->GC->LA ends around here->Filler Damage->SoD end proc.