M15: Trickster Rogue Class Changes

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  • scottyfnc#2957
    scottyfnc#2957 Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    Now I feel like an HAMSTER. I went back to ACT parser to check current damage. I was hoping the new OD increase would help out, and I thought my OD procced pretty well but a big chunk of it actually was from the DF hits and I was getting the bugged 6 shots from the blade flurry, (just put in the q slot and spam it). I though it was just an animation bug but it was hitting, and when hitting 5 enemies two extra times (my usual loadout for heroics) that's 10 extra OD procs from that bug, then then 10 or 14 or whatever from the df down to TWO now, I'll be losing 20 OD procs just from two powers alone. then yeah OD is useless and the extra dmg won't make up for it. Holy HAMSTER. I'm out of ideas. Maybe it is hopeless. Yep, flame me, HAMSTER in a bucket and pour it on me. I guess it is the end. I'm trying so hard to look at what was increased but it's just not there anymore. Maybe it is time to play something else.
  • jash15#3202
    jash15#3202 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    I signed up now, just so I could express my concerns for these changes. I not good at this sort of thing, so bear with me:

    I've been playing Neverwinter since Mod 12 on PS4 and the Trickster Rogue has always been my favourite class. I've been working on making a viable Scoundrel Build based on high movement speed, power and controlling/debuffing. it's taken a while and multiple changes but it's finally starting to become pretty good, currently sitting at 13.8k IL.

    There isn't much point repeating what other TRs have said concerning the loss in DPS overall (They are more knowledgeable than I am anyway, they know what they're talking about) and I 100% agree with all the suggested changes. There is something else I'm concerned with that hasn't been talked about too much however.

    We're also losing movement speed, We lose 5% from Skillful Infiltrator which doesn't sound like much, but it really does make a noticeable difference and a total of 15% from Sneak Attack (While stealthed). I'm also worried that the final feat in the Scoundrel tree 'Skullcracker' loses it's 15% increased movement speed as it doesn't mention it in the description. This is something I really don't like personally (As much as the DPS loss to be honest) as Movement Speed is a vital (and fun!) element to my build.

    With each module and changes to the class, I've adapted pretty well and haven't been very concerned at all. Mod 14 especially as what I've seen, TRs have finally become a wanted class in endgame groups. If this all goes through however, I've considered dropping this class which is something I really don't want to do.

    I do agree with some of the nerfs, they were needed. I also really like some of the changes to the powers, class features and Scoundrel tree feats (Particularly the Deflect related feats) but some were unnecessary. There are a small few changes I would like to suggest, I usually don't do this so forgive me if any of this sounds foolish. For feats, I'm focusing on the Scoundrel Tree:

    - I'm aware that the GWF is getting a feat called 'Nimble Runner' which increases your damage dealt based on your movement speed, Why not give the Trickster Rogue this feat in the Scoundrel Tree instead? Possibly nerf it so it goes up to 10-20% more damage or so, but I feel this particular feat fits the Trickster Rogue better. Rogues are supposed to be stealthy and fast no?

    - For the 'Survivor' feat, 95% of the time we are above 50% hit points so this feat still seems useless to me (I could be wrong here, but that's what I've noticed). So to make it more viable and add another lifesteal related option to the Scoundrel tree, you could do something like "When you leave Stealth you gain 1/2/3/4/5% Lifesteal Chance, this bonus diminishes as you gain Stealth Meter".

    - If you plan on removing the 15% increased movement speed from the 'Skullcracker' feat... Just don't... Please...

    - Keep the run speed gained from Sneak Attack and Skillful Infiltrator the same, nerfing them is completely unnecessary in my opinion.

    I've put so much time and effort (and money...) into my main and it's what keeps me coming back to Neverwinter. It would be a terrible shame if all this was to happen, Please re-think all of this and listen to all our concerns.

    Kind Regards,

    J_Ash15
  • mordekai#1901
    mordekai#1901 Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User

    ash234 said:

    Silence from the developer's end is almost deafening.

    You do have to remember that they posted these changes for people to look at right before they left Friday afternoon. Then, like the rest of the world, they took the weekend off. So getting back today they have pages and pages of feedback across many topics to read, digest, discuss and figure out how to respond to ....

    Oh, and somewhere in there they actually have to spend some time working on the numerous known issues with mod 15 too. Give then a few days and see where this ends up.
    But that's the problem.
    This isn't the first time by some way that a new major change has been dropped into preview on a Friday, had one or two quick replies to initial comments and then while players are realising over a weekend the full implication, those who made the decisions and can comment on the hows and whys bugger off and leave it to unpaid volunteers to moderate a vaccuum into which there is very little positivity coming from the community.

    Its irresponsible. Mods have no answers yet are expected to keep things civil and decent when all anybody wants is answers. They can't do anything to stop trolls using passive aggressive triggers to wind up people who are already tightly wound, and when the spring snaps it turns into insults, arguments and ultimately bans.

    Most of that can be avoided if these threads see more than a fleeting interest from the people who posted them in the first place.
    This, "light blue touchpaper and retire" methodology is frankly gutless.

    Why on Earth could they not wait and drop the preview on a Monday and be there throughout the week to interject when they have time to punctuate the stream of questions?
    Why leave it so long to get back on and reply after the weekend?

    It took me a good twenty minutes to catch up this thread. Because I too havent checked in on this particular thread for a few days.

    Its now Tuesday.
    3 whole days have passed and nothing.

    Please, Cryptic, stop doing this.

    Stop dumping these changes on a Friday and leaving them untouched.

    Just take a look and see how the anger and vitriol, increase proportionally to the lack of response in these "Official Feedback Threads" it's like a scientific constant.

    More than half the feedback is in the form of questions. Why? being up there at the top.
    That's not some new phenomena.
    It happens EVERY time.
    But... you carry on repeating the same cycle of Dump the info, walk away, let the pot boil over, the Mods have a HAMSTER weekend, and you come back and eventually drop back into the thread like nothing has happened and ignore any of the really tough questions.

    For instance, what measurements did you use to calculate the overall damage reduction and against what other models, both TR and other DPS was it compared?

    Explain even a little bit of the WHY instead of just some transparent platitude like "in our ongoing efforts to be super good, here's a nerf... hope this what you've been waiting for" smiley face, smiley face, praying hands, winky face.

    You have to do better at managing these roll outs.
  • jim#8036
    jim#8036 Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    I feel as if we are fighting to get back what we just had/ received, but in fact we should have been given an uptick on our other trees, I would definitely build out one of the others as a loadout to play, as most TR,s love the class. I built a DO to get in dungeons but do not like the play style. Now what? After two years of building and spending to compete...I’m dissapointed in cryptic, through it all I stayed with an inferior class in the eyes of many around me. Now we are a joke. period.
  • cheyennemountain
    cheyennemountain Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    I came back to the game having been away for a while. I'm now looking at the changes, and I'm eyes wide open in shock!

    Why have you seriously lessened the movement speed options on a class (TR) that is supposed to be nimble and fast?
    At the same time you guys boosted damage (based on movement) on another dps class that can run around like something from an episode of Benny Hill!
    What gives?
    TRs have benefited from looping their power on one feat tree. Its why so many folks went with executioner. it put their damage on a similar level to other damage dealing classes.......it made them desirable in pve!
    If it was an unintended/unexpected interaction, then fine, remove it. but you have to understand that you then need to do something to boost overall damage back up, not hammer it down more.




    Morgana CW
  • intelll#2049
    intelll#2049 Member Posts: 10 Arc User

    adinosii said:

    Well, TRs are clearly going back to the "not wanted" in PvE. I do not see end-game groups wanting TRs as the primary DPS any more.

    If this was prompted by the "TRs are too strong in PvP", then why, why not just make a change to a few key powers, making their effects different depending on whether they were affecting other players (in PvP) or regular mobs (in PvE?

    This would have made PvP a bit more balanced, while still kept TRs as viable primary DPSers in PvE.

    Is someone getting paid to basically destroy the game to get everyone to move over to the new M:tG game?

    THIS!

    So some people bitched and complained about TR so we are getting these massively nerfy changes? My TR has just passed 11k and I've worked very hard to get her there by practical trial and error, pouring over viable builds, and tweaking her until she's finally getting to where she's working well. NOW I'm going to have to go back and redo everything I've done, just because some people complained about PvP TRs when I don't even play PvP to begin with?

    Just.Don't.GET IT!.
    Thats why i think PVP and PVE servers should be separate so PVP nerf dont affect the balancing of PVE, having both together will never get a class to be good in both pvp and pve or balanced. The only way you can balance a class in both is to have separate servers.
  • intelll#2049
    intelll#2049 Member Posts: 10 Arc User

    Skill balancing should always be split if the game has pve/pvp modes. Not doing it is just being lazy, modifiers should exist to affect each type of content respectively. Instead you end up with an even larger and constant imbalance.

    100% agree. Split servers are really needed.
  • demonmonger
    demonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    I'm not going to say I quit and go on a rant. Why? Because I know that all the stuff that is being added for mod 15 is just to test how we do as a class vs other classes. Thomas Foss said in his interview with Nova that they are trying to balance things out.
    Mainly they do that with statistical values and he even says dont quote me on statistics. So if many of you TR were using that cookie cutter build of executioner, then they saw high numbers of damage coming from TR. They also made changes to every feat and skill based on some of those numbers. In short we shot ourselves in the foot, but it will be mended. Once they see TR is in a terrible state, things will change for us. So play your TR, and pay it full force finding all ways to increase your damage.
    In time we will be adjusted and great again! Also consider that this new mod is not complicated or hard to do. Who cares if you don't get invited to end game content. That content will just be replaced by something better in the end like always.
    Stick it out. Ride it out. TR will prevail!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • voltanux#9470
    voltanux#9470 Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited September 2018

    Skill balancing should always be split if the game has pve/pvp modes. Not doing it is just being lazy, modifiers should exist to affect each type of content respectively. Instead you end up with an even larger and constant imbalance.

    100% agree. Split servers are really needed.
    It's not even the servers that need separated, there's no need for a PvP only server or a PvE only (thats how im reading your post anyway). Sorry if you are actually meaning what im saying and im just going full derp. Separate coding can be done to adjust to the type of content being played. Example: Stealth, while in pve functions as normal, but once entered in a BG or any content related to PvP the system recognizes you are in a PvP instance and automatically adjusts the skill.
  • intelll#2049
    intelll#2049 Member Posts: 10 Arc User

    Skill balancing should always be split if the game has pve/pvp modes. Not doing it is just being lazy, modifiers should exist to affect each type of content respectively. Instead you end up with an even larger and constant imbalance.

    100% agree. Split servers are really needed.
    It's not even the servers that need separated, there's no need for a PvP only server or a PvE only (thats how im reading your post anyway). Sorry if you are actually meaning what im saying and im just going full derp. Separate coding can be done to adjust to the type of content being played. Example: Stealth, while in pve functions as normal, but once entered in a BG or any content related to PvP the system recognizes you are in a PvP instance and automatically adjusts the skill.
    I kinda meant this, but if they are to lazy to do the coding that way then separate servers would be the other option.
  • sirjimbofrancis
    sirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    Why can’t we get the same consideration given to other class feedback threads?

    For example @noworries#8859 wrote yesterday on the DC feedback thread:

    I wanted to pop in to say that this is being read through, still working through the 250 responses so it may not be until tomorrow that there is an actual response but I did want to let everyone know the thread isn't being ignored.

    I was involved in the original TR suggestion threads years ago when we were told balancing TRs was eminent, and it was like pulling teeth to get a response. Why is that?

    You have a lot of very knowledgeable long term TR players and testers willing to help and eager for a dialogue. Let’s start the discussion that you asked for in making this feedback thread, and work together to find some solutions that don’t leave everyone frustrated and upset. Communication. You know?
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • promytheas
    promytheas Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 65 Arc User
    Please, do EVERY class a favor, and share with us the metrics and statistics upon which you based your "balancing" decisions. It would be most appreciated by everyone. Also seriously consider the implementation of a "token" that allows the conversion of a class to a different one, you could even put this new token on the zen store and make some money, two birds with one stone basically.
  • sirjimbofrancis
    sirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    I know it should be imminent not eminent. I don’t want to edit and get the comment ganked. 🤷‍♂️
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • andyufcfan
    andyufcfan Member Posts: 79 Arc User
    Less hits and less damage from everything except for a 12% cloud of steel buff for me , what a load of garbage, I'm done.
  • cosmin996
    cosmin996 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 25 Arc User
    isssssho said:

    Personally idk what the complaints are for - sure some stuff has been nerfed but just do basic math on gloaming cut and blood soaked blades being in exe tree - just playstyle will change damage won't

    Hey dude, sup with you? Haven't seen you in a long time in game
  • verenov77
    verenov77 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    Can we TR's at LEAST get the ability to remove traps during combat? I mean, throw us a bone, please!

    Seriously, though, I'm interested to see if there will now be a good pve-build that will center around non-duelist at-will and perhaps a gloaming-cut build?

    It'll be interesting to see, for sure. I'm willing to give it a chance and wait it out. As far as the "end-of-the-world" "doomsday-naysayers" comments, this is nothing new to see. There have always been those that look only on how their CURRENT build will be affected, unwilling to see how other builds might have been buffed or actually become more-viable than just the cookie-cutter few we have. I'm not saying that we TR's won't be horribly-gimped by these changes, but I'm certainly not going to jump on this kneejerk-reacting bandwagon loaded with those ready to exit the game or shelve their characters.

    Well, not yet, at least.

    Hopefully, balance will be restored. Perhaps they need to buff the midichlorian count of all Trickster Rogues so WE can restore balance....that might be the best solution.
  • spargu1
    spargu1 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    STOP CRYING! These changes are not that bad. I've tested them on preview, just git gud :D. Im 17.3k TR and rly on top in the pvp leaderboard... Although, I do not agree with the Impossible to Catch and Whirlwind of Blades changes.. PLIZ CHANGE THEM BACK OR RIOT
  • intelll#2049
    intelll#2049 Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    spargu1 said:

    STOP CRYING! These changes are not that bad. I've tested them on preview, just git gud :D. Im 17.3k TR and rly on top in the pvp leaderboard... Although, I do not agree with the Impossible to Catch and Whirlwind of Blades changes.. PLIZ CHANGE THEM BACK OR RIOT

    These changes are completely different from pve to pvp.
  • spargu1
    spargu1 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    Broskyz, I'm also top pve TR. Changes are not that bad, but they must not do all the changes.. at least give us back ITC and Whirlwind
  • promytheas
    promytheas Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 65 Arc User

    After this changes, the only way my TR would be a bit desirable in end game dungeons would be if the devs spread deadly traps everywhere (really deadly, like you walk on it you are dead and can't scroll of life) and you can't avoid them without a TR or without taking a very very long by-passing way... Our ability to disarm traps has always been a joke, a VIP don't care if he trigers and is hit by traps...

    Or locked reward chests at the end of the dungeon that only a TR can pick. LOL That would be an interesting way of forcing people to invite TRs in end-game content.

    Seriously though, I suspect that they are basing their "balancing" decisions on the notion such as "what is good in PVP must be good in PVE too" and "end-game content is run with 3 DPS slots". Have you taken any statistics from the live server? Like how many TRs completed the CR dungeon under X time, and how does this number compare to other classes? Just an example of a possible metric.
  • stonerw
    stonerw Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    Yeah, I don't PVP either, what percentage of players do? 2% 5%?

    Besides the massive damage nerf, why cut the rogues speed? GWFs are supposed to be the slow clunky armored hulks and TRs are the swift, dextrous, lightly armored swifts. Why then is this game specd to allow GWFs to leave the rest of the party in the dust and the rogue is getting a downgrade in speed?

    Again, cryptic if you go through with these changes you better develop a class change token! It's not like we are all playing a free game...many of us have sunken money into this class. I have, and I just reached end game status only to have the rug yanked from underneath my feet.
  • mongoosemobster
    mongoosemobster Member Posts: 42 Arc User

    I'm not going to say I quit and go on a rant. Why? Because I know that all the stuff that is being added for mod 15 is just to test how we do as a class vs other classes. Thomas Foss said in his interview with Nova that they are trying to balance things out.
    Mainly they do that with statistical values and he even says dont quote me on statistics. So if many of you TR were using that cookie cutter build of executioner, then they saw high numbers of damage coming from TR. They also made changes to every feat and skill based on some of those numbers. In short we shot ourselves in the foot, but it will be mended. Once they see TR is in a terrible state, things will change for us. So play your TR, and pay it full force finding all ways to increase your damage.
    In time we will be adjusted and great again! Also consider that this new mod is not complicated or hard to do. Who cares if you don't get invited to end game content. That content will just be replaced by something better in the end like always.
    Stick it out. Ride it out. TR will prevail!

    Are you aware that "riding it out" means not playing the game?

    Why would a player (possibly a paying customer) volunteer over a month's long of time to do something that they do not enjoy? Assuming they can even get accepted into a group, that is.

    How much data can you get from people who can't get into groups because of the state of TRs, have temporarily stopped playing TRs, have deleted their TRs, or have stopped playing the game?

    Zero.

    I'm sorry but this is the worst methodology of kind of study of data I've ever seen, from school science fairs to research papers.

    Incidentally, there is a way to maintain a healthy sample population: Pay your guinea pigs who are mindlessly providing statistical data. Be a good corporate manager to us subservient white-collar cubicle workers.

    Heck, maybe we can do the balancing for you.
  • spargu1
    spargu1 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    I am currently testing the nightblade class in ESO. Now that feels like a real rogue