Yeah me and other fellow rogues are waiting for the response from Mr Balanced. Please provide sir!
They probably won't. won't take the feedback, so what would the point in having a feedback forum on the website be used for, just to make us think we can have a voice in change when nothing will ever get taken in to account.
Just make a TR on live, an then on Preview and actually test the changes you want to push on mod15, and come here to say us again that is an improvement.
I have a 15K TR, and while i can chain minor Barovian HE on live without losing 1 hp, i barely stay alive when i try 1 Barovian HE on preview, even after testing others paths/trees.
My 11K GWF is more powerfull on preview right now than my main TR.
It's not a "balance", it's a murder.
Even considering the fact that actual tests are biased cause of the bug of combat advantage, wich is a main source of damages for us, the changes you proposes for Dailies will kill the class.
Italian Version: Sono incredulo e molto dubbioso su questo nerf... Sono davvero curioso di vedere il nuovo danno di TR nel mod 15, voi sviluppatori dite che lo fate per migliorare il nosro modo di giocare...ne siete veramente sicuri ? vedremo.. (Quando avete cambiato la raffinazione dei diamanti astrali, avete detto che lo avete fatto perchè era stato richiesto dai giocatori, beh, leggendo i vari commenti, tutti dicevano di non cambiare la raffinazione a 100k per giorno, ma questa è un altra storia) Tornando al Ladro...purtroppo sono su ps4 e, non ho la possibilità di vedere e testare la differenza del danno, quindi posso solo sperare che i ladri su pc trovino una soluzione a questi drastici cambiamenti... Per tanti, e dico tanti mesi, noi ladri non siamo stati invitati nei dungeons content, perchè avevamo un basso danno...con le ultime mod 13/14, abbiamo iniziato a crescere e ad essere competitivi con le altre classi dps...era bello stare alla pari delle altre classi dps...detto questo...non mi dispererò e non piangerò per questo drastico nerf, ovviamente non sono d'accordo su questo mega nerf, ad ogni modo, vedremo se avrete fatto passi avanti, o avrete fatto passi indietro.
English version: I am incredulous and very doubtful about this nerf ... I'm really curious to see the new damage of TR in mod 15, you developers say you do it to improve our way of playing ... are you really sure? we'll see.. (When you changed the refining of the astral diamonds, you said you did it because it was requested by the players, well, reading the various comments, everyone said not to change the refinement to 100k per day, but that's another story) Returning to the Thief ... unfortunately I'm on ps4 and, I can not see and test the difference in damage, so I can only hope that the thieves on the pc find a solution to these drastic changes ... For many, and I say many months, we thieves were not invited in the dungeons content, because we had a low damage ... with the latest mod 13/14, we started to grow and be competitive with other dps classes ... it was nice to stay on par with other dps classes ... said this ... I will not despair and I will not cry for this drastic nerf, obviously I do not agree on this mega nerf, however, we'll see if you have made progress, or you will have taken steps back.
Alright, at this point I will start to weigh in with my feedback, I will be posting more detailed feedback within the next day or so.
Many of these changes do have their roots in suggestions good TRs have made over the years and its clear some real effort and resources was put into this rework attempt. I don't buy the notion that the devs have a vendetta against TRs, never make attempts to listen to us, or that this was an attempt to kill their own game or anything like that. That said, there are a few disastrously bad changes thrown into the mix that far outweigh the impact of the good changes also contained in this rework. I'd like to urge the devs to fix the worst of this rework's flaws before they hit live. It looks to me like the devs genuinely thought they were giving us a fair tradeoff and didn't realize the full extent of how reliant we are on the things they nerfed.
I read and reread the changes multiple times on the first day. What I first expected would be the result of these changes didn't match reality once me and other TRs started running tests on preview.
Overview of the rework's effects on PVE TRs:
On paper, I was expecting PVE TRs to have only mildly been nerfed and the feat buffs to make up for most of what was lost. I was dead wrong, the feat buffs come nowhere close to the amount of dps we just lost, we lost around half of our total dps in PVE. Stripping the power bonuses from courage breaker, whirlwind of blades, and press the advantage + the nerf to SOD + the nerfs to some of our powers such as duelists flurry take away a lot more than what we got back in feat buffs + buffs to some of our powers. We still do enough damage to clear content at the very least but will be miles behind most if not all other DPSers in endgame content.
Overview of the rework's effects on PVP TRs:
Even more surprisingly, my expectations of what effect these changes would have on PVP TRs also didn't match reality. I was expecting the feat buffs to result in overpowered scoundrel and sabotuer trees and executioner to be the weakest tree but still usable. I was also expecting both M15 scoundrel and M15 sabotuer to be much stronger than their counterparts on live. I am not completely finished with my testing but so far, my tests indicate that PVP TR dps for all 3 feat trees actually went down way more than it went up. While nowhere near the crippling status of the PVE nerfs, PVP TRs might need a few small tweaks since some of our attacks were watered down too much and our overall dps seems weirdly low so far. In particular, the nerfs to bloodbath, duelist's flurry, press the advantage, and smokebomb seem to be the main culprits for the low dps output other than the lack of CA damage on preview, more on that below:
It should be noted that combat advantage damage being completely absent on preview adds another major nerf that won't be present on live, CA damage is a lot of damage in PVP. Once these changes go live, bloodbath dps should improve enough to work with along with most of our other viable attacks. Bloodbath probably won't nuke people anymore though, which is a good thing. Duelist's flurry on the other hand, will still be too watered down and need a damage increase.
I do wonder how these TR changes will interact with the upcoming nerf to recovery in PVP. So far its unclear if the recovery nerf will launch in module 15 or not but a spoiler from the devs was dropped about this on the PVP forums and it sounded like we will be getting that soon.
The best important thing to come out of this rework:
The best thing so far to come out of this rework is that it succeeded in making the 3 feat trees more balanced with eachother for both PVE and PVP. In particular, most of the feat changes to sabotuer and scoundrel look great and would be great if not for the pile of overkill nerfs that came with them. The good news is these feat changes aren't a waste of effort since the TR feat trees should remain better balanced with eachother when general TR dps is scaled back up again.
I am also psyched that scoundrel has been brought back from the dead in PVE. Previously, scoundrel was only good in PVP though was behind the other 2 trees in performance.
On the TR rework's general nerf to movement speed:
I am displeased with the movement speed nerfs. TRs are supposed to be a fast moving striker class after all and with the reduced movement speed, building for movement speed will be much less rewarding and TRs will be less good at building for speed than several other classes. Right now, movement speed plays an important role for most classes in PVP and many PVE TRs have a speed loadout they like to play with when they are soloing.
While Impossible to catch did get a 25% movement speed buff tacked onto it, this buff only works when we use it from stealth, which people simply don't do in PVP or PVE since we need our stealth for other more important things. ITC also lasts 4 seconds now instead of 5 and with the recovery nerf to PVP on the way, revamped ITC isn't a suitable replacement for our lost movement speed.
Skillful infiltrator had 5% of its movement speed increase cut off in exchange for 1% more crit and deflect. This tradeoff wasn't necessary, skillful infiltrator isn't part of any meta build and the only people running it are using it for speed loadouts or undergeared toons. Please put the 5% movement speed back.
Sneak attack also had a major speed nerf made to it, it was 40% movement speed while in stealth and now its only 25%. The 10% cooldown reduction that replaced much of that movement speed is something PVE TRs are unlikely to use. It will also make PVPers in other classes nervous even though PVP TRs won't run it since we have better options anyway. Truth be told, this is the only TR speed nerf I don't care much about since the new version is slightly more interesting to me than the old version. However I will mention that many other TRs don't feel the same way and would rather have the old sneak attack back.
The scoundrel tree also had its 15% extra movement speed taken out. I understand why the devs didn't want it on the greatly improved M15 version of scou's capstone feat but please don't pull the 15% movement speed out of the tree entirely. Instead, please consider replacing the survivor feat with a permanent 15% movement speed increase and remove some of the extra deflect you gave scoundrels as part of the M15 rework. The reworked survivor feat is still crappy even after the M15 rework and the amount of deflect chance scoundrels got is way more than we needed.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
"Stealth and Stealth Regeneration have had a handful of adjustments to be less oppressive against other players but more consistent for the Trickster Rogue. " in other words, kill PvE because of PvP crybabies...
The stealth change for PVP is TR is revealed when dealing damage and it only happens when in PVP, so I don't how this change kills PVE. The other stealth changes (like, stealth regen continues even when taking damage) are generally positive for PVE.
"Stealth and Stealth Regeneration have had a handful of adjustments to be less oppressive against other players but more consistent for the Trickster Rogue. " in other words, kill PvE because of PvP crybabies...
The stealth change for PVP is TR is revealed when dealing damage and it only happens when in PVP, so I don't how this change kills PVE. The other stealth changes (like, stealth regen continues even when taking damage) are generally positive for PVE.
Have you tested it the changes? I many on here have. I have tested some. In PVE I do far less damage, stealth regens/builds slower. If you read the changes there were 5 changes noted for stealth and only one of them was pvp only. But the stealth isnt the main thing as when you are doing so much less damage it doesnt matter all that much. Go on the test server and check it for yourself. most people are reporting around 40% less damage which seems consistent with what I experienced. I know Duellists Flurry on preview does 31.5% less dmg on the first two hits and 40.5% less dmg on the follow up hits.
"Stealth and Stealth Regeneration have had a handful of adjustments to be less oppressive against other players but more consistent for the Trickster Rogue. " in other words, kill PvE because of PvP crybabies...
The stealth change for PVP is TR is revealed when dealing damage and it only happens when in PVP, so I don't how this change kills PVE. The other stealth changes (like, stealth regen continues even when taking damage) are generally positive for PVE.
Have you tested it the changes? I many on here have. I have tested some. In PVE I do far less damage, stealth regens/builds slower. If you read the changes there were 5 changes noted for stealth and only one of them was pvp only.
I replied to him and quoted his statement specifically for a reason. I didn't say anything else. His statement isn't the same as what you and others are saying. Why get so defensive over something that has nothing to do with you? Why jump to the conclusion that I've said something that you think could be taken as a small positive about the changes and feel "Oh no, please don't say anything that could be construed as justification for these changes because you are undermining our efforts to try to stop these changes?"
His misplaced (and very ironic) statement is what is undermining any reasonable discourse.
OK apart from asking for a class reroll, we should tell you why we think that the changes are terrible for PVE TRs. At this time I’ll only comment on the at-will and encounter changes.
Stealth changes: Mostly irrelevant for PVE, Stealth is mainly used for initiating attacks and abilities such as SoD. PVE TRs stay stealthed for mere split seconds. So these changes hardly make a difference in PVE
Duelist Flurry (The TR’s primary source of dps damage against single targets) changes: • 100% bleed chance for every swing: Useless, any TR should be able to maintain max stacks as it is now. Basically you give us nothing in order to excuse yourself for taking away other useful abilities • Final combo now lasts for 6 attacks, instead of 9: That is a NERF, it takes quite a few seconds to get to the final combo, IF you don’t get interrupted or the mob/boss moves away and now when you finally get to that point you’ll do 30% less damage/attacks • Final combo's animation time has been halved. Were you going to have us do less attacks (6) and still have an animation that was for 9 attacks? That’s not a bonus, that’s one of the side-effects of the nerf • The final combo of this power no longer reduces your stealth meter by a large amount. None cares about stealth regen in PVE as it was stated earlier • Bleed damage lowered by ~40%. That is a massive nerf to the TR’s main source of damage
Cloud of Steel changes: Hardly relevant to the PVE content, this skill is rarely used to agro distant mobs, so thanks for nothing
Sly Flourish changes: The skill is still useless in PVE, thanks for nothing
Gloaming Cut: The skill is still useless in PVE, thanks for nothing
Disheartening Strike, basically a 12% damage increase. A good step towards helping the Whisper Knife specialization that hardly anyone uses
Bait and Switch changes: The skill is still useless in PVE, thanks for nothing
Blitz changes: The skill is still useless in PVE, thanks for nothing
Vengeance's Pursuit changes: The skill is still useless in PVE, thanks for nothing
Smoke Bomb changes: Another main PVE encounter having its damage massively nerfed, -30% damage
Shadowy Disappearance: The skill is still useless in PVE, thanks for nothing
Impossible to Catch changes (Another main PVE encounter): Basically now it lasts 1 second less, grants half of the damage resistance it used to and its recharge time increased. A nerf!
Blade Flurry changes (our other AoE encounter, other than the nerfed smoke bomb): a 43% damage increase and a longer recharge time. Well this is actually good!
Deft Strike changes: The skill is still useless in PVE, thanks for nothing
So to sum up, you massively nerfed the skills that are actually used in PVE, reduced TR survivability, made tweaks to other skills that are still useless in PVE, boosted the Whisper Knife spec a bit and improved one AoE encounter. The Duelist Flurry and smoke bomb changes alone will result in a massive nerf to the PVE TR’s damage.
You were saying that the time all the TRs were waiting for (several years now) has finally came … really now? REALLY?
OK apart from asking for a class reroll, we should tell you why we think that the changes are terrible for PVE TRs.
Players should always discuss the reasons behind how they feel about changes. Saying you hate it is fine, but it doesn't open the door for any conversations back and forth and is far less likely to result in adjustments that you'd like to see. We do appreciate the different detailed feedback that has been left in the thread so far.
A change of this size is always going to bring up a lot thoughts, many of them unhappy, about how the class they're used to is changing. And in this case, some of the changes probably were a bit too far.
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough. It is also worth making sure everyone knows that Combat Advantage is not working on preview currently ( a fix has been made and hopefully will be in the next preview update). So take that into account with any testing that is being done.
Here are some adjustments we're looking into:
Low Blows: Reverted back to 5/10/15/20/25% Skullcracker: Base duration increased to 10 seconds Skullcracker: Bonus duration increased to 5 seconds One With the Shadows: Damage bonus increased to 40% Shadowborn: Damage increased to 20/40/60/80/100 Duelist's Flurry: Bleed damage restored to previous amount
There is several ways to solve this problem. 1) Move to another MMO game. 2) Stop supporting NW ( don't buy vip ) 3) Ask for REFUND. Wasted $ on a class that's being nerfed to the ground. All of the money that was being invested on a nerfed class should be given back !!
Players should always discuss the reasons behind how they feel about changes. Saying you hate it is fine, but it doesn't open the door for any conversations back and forth and is far less likely to result in adjustments that you'd like to see. We do appreciate the different detailed feedback that has been left in the thread so far.
A change of this size is always going to bring up a lot thoughts, many of them unhappy, about how the class they're used to is changing. And in this case, some of the changes probably were a bit too far.
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough. It is also worth making sure everyone knows that Combat Advantage is not working on preview currently ( a fix has been made and hopefully will be in the next preview update). So take that into account with any testing that is being done.
Here are some adjustments we're looking into:
Low Blows: Reverted back to 5/10/15/20/25% Skullcracker: Base duration increased to 10 seconds Skullcracker: Bonus duration increased to 5 seconds One With the Shadows: Damage bonus increased to 40% Shadowborn: Damage increased to 20/40/60/80/100 Duelist's Flurry: Bleed damage restored to previous amount
I get trying to stop the power loop, I really do. However, even with the proposed changes you have just given us, it doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of TRs are losing roughly 50% of their damage.
Classic corporate "managing expectations" yet again. It's the bonding nerf all over.
We want to achieve "A" but know it won't be received well.
So let's tell the community we are making all of these terrible changes in addition to A. Community blows up, we now "listen" by rolling back some of those additional changes to "improve" things and arrive in state "A" as originally desired. Only now we have a community thanking us for listening and supporting them in some way.
Eg, bonding get severe nerf but we'll also tell them that uptime is 50%. It's outrage! Ok ok, we went too far, have your uptime back, now say thanks for the nerf.
TRs, we completely destroyed your class, outrage, ok ok, "some adjustments may not have been needed", now, go on, be grateful. Gee thanks Devs, so glad you listened.....
Hi, First of all thanks that finally a respond come from one of the devs...
So, I can’t Test your changes because I’m on PS4 but what I read about it seems to be the prophecy of doom for our TR class a as a DPS class...
It is great you want to make other builds more playable than the EXE build but to do that it necessary to kill the EXE build? I don’t think so... and just a question for you: you want that more other builds will be played than the EXE, shouldn’t be that the same for GWF destroyer builds too?
The TR is most hated class in NW in pvp for killing to fast (what the TR stands for imo) and in PVE for not enough DPS for end game. I finally got a 17k TR and I can rarely run CR or CODG because no one is taking a TR when they can have a GWF xD and your changes now will make it even worse...
Okay if you are in a rank 20 guild with a lot of end gamers than you can run these things in a few min but we can’t when we are not in R20 guilds and there we need our DPS where it is to compete with all others and at least play end game stuff...
We TRs need our boss killer style to be relevant in this game
I think to Stop the pvp fight about the TR is: 1. Do seperate feats special designed for pvp where you can choose a balanced skill set for all classes...
Or
2. like some before me said: split pvp from pve
For us who love our TRs how they are work (since mod 13/14) now is at least something we wanted for a long time at least I’m happy with the EXE build without power looping and we want to stay relevant as a DPS class.
Please re-think that changes for people who are not R20 guild players because they will be hit the most of that
Hopefully you stop the crippling change before it happens really and kill the game for me (and probably for many TRs aswell)
OK apart from asking for a class reroll, we should tell you why we think that the changes are terrible for PVE TRs.
Players should always discuss the reasons behind how they feel about changes. Saying you hate it is fine, but it doesn't open the door for any conversations back and forth and is far less likely to result in adjustments that you'd like to see. We do appreciate the different detailed feedback that has been left in the thread so far.
A change of this size is always going to bring up a lot thoughts, many of them unhappy, about how the class they're used to is changing. And in this case, some of the changes probably were a bit too far.
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough. It is also worth making sure everyone knows that Combat Advantage is not working on preview currently ( a fix has been made and hopefully will be in the next preview update). So take that into account with any testing that is being done.
Here are some adjustments we're looking into:
Low Blows: Reverted back to 5/10/15/20/25% Skullcracker: Base duration increased to 10 seconds Skullcracker: Bonus duration increased to 5 seconds One With the Shadows: Damage bonus increased to 40% Shadowborn: Damage increased to 20/40/60/80/100 Duelist's Flurry: Bleed damage restored to previous amount
TY for the response, many of us were worried that the mod 15 class reworks had already been finalized and that these changes would go live without any further tweaks.
These revisions to the previous rework look good so far.
Also, while I understand why powerlooping would be something your team would want to put and end to, keep in mind that powerlooping and power self buffs have been around for a long time and pre-date the series of buffs that were made to Shadow of demise over the last year. It wasn't until the buffed version of SOD came onto the scene that TR dps climbed a little bit too high in some situations in PVE, this was the case for slower fights that you usually get in pug runs and even then, occasionally members of other classes that are a cut above the rest do top you. In faster fights, other dps classes doing competitive match ups against TRs win way more often than TRs do. At least 5 classes are also able to one rotate kill bosses just like TRs can.
I think a really important question that should be asked is why is it that TR dps is so dependent on all of that extra power + M14 monster SOD + other smaller factors? If you want to remove our power buffs entirely or even just end powerlooping, I think its worth taking a look at our base damage among other factors and consider increasing them. Something is clearly off if it takes that much extra power + giant procs + other smaller factors to compete in PVE.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
OK apart from asking for a class reroll, we should tell you why we think that the changes are terrible for PVE TRs.
Players should always discuss the reasons behind how they feel about changes. Saying you hate it is fine, but it doesn't open the door for any conversations back and forth and is far less likely to result in adjustments that you'd like to see. We do appreciate the different detailed feedback that has been left in the thread so far.
A change of this size is always going to bring up a lot thoughts, many of them unhappy, about how the class they're used to is changing. And in this case, some of the changes probably were a bit too far.
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough. It is also worth making sure everyone knows that Combat Advantage is not working on preview currently ( a fix has been made and hopefully will be in the next preview update). So take that into account with any testing that is being done.
Here are some adjustments we're looking into:
Low Blows: Reverted back to 5/10/15/20/25% Skullcracker: Base duration increased to 10 seconds Skullcracker: Bonus duration increased to 5 seconds One With the Shadows: Damage bonus increased to 40% Shadowborn: Damage increased to 20/40/60/80/100 Duelist's Flurry: Bleed damage restored to previous amount
I guess its fair enough that Power looping is targeted since the potential was endless even tho it rarely occurred in end-game since there is not time for it. I dont object to putting a stop to the WoB+ITC+CB interaction but at least give us one source of Power increase since we lost all 3. We need high AP gain and for that we need high Power stat because its crucial for us to overlap two Daily powers, because its not possible to compete with just one Daily buff. My suggestion is reverting Whirlwind of Blades to how it was. Power looping without CB giving Power is no longer possible and WoB itself is the greatest nerf because it now gives 40% damage increase while it used to give us ~90% damage increase(without Power loop with CB). You can also nerf WoB to 10% Power per target hit but i dont recommend that because TR will lose large portion of damage when Smoke bomb triggering Aura of Courage 4 times gets fixed. Reverting only WoB would help us a lot. Removing AP gain block from Lurkers Assault would be great addition because we wont stand a chance in longer fights even with WoB reverted.
DF Bleeds damage back to previous is great since it would help low and mid tier TRs, wont affect end-game TRs since they dont use it anyway. Skullcracker duration increase is fantastic, it would give Executioner good run for his money. Currently there is bug with the Skullcracker mark not being extended by damage done, it stays at 6 seconds on Bosses. One with the Shadows increase is also nice and puts Saboteur int othe race with other two trees as well. Shadowborn increase sounds fair, it is weaker than m14 SoD bleed because it used to double dip and SoD itself already was toned town by 1/3 of the damage. Also Shadowborn wont be used everywhere, strictly for single target fights, it will be replaced on mobs and on bosses which have mobs around them.
Bottom line, we need some source of Power stat back, best would be WoB since it has hit us the most and since we need AP gain so much.
"Stealth and Stealth Regeneration have had a handful of adjustments to be less oppressive against other players but more consistent for the Trickster Rogue. " in other words, kill PvE because of PvP crybabies...
The stealth change for PVP is TR is revealed when dealing damage and it only happens when in PVP, so I don't how this change kills PVE. The other stealth changes (like, stealth regen continues even when taking damage) are generally positive for PVE.
Have you tested it the changes? I many on here have. I have tested some. In PVE I do far less damage, stealth regens/builds slower. If you read the changes there were 5 changes noted for stealth and only one of them was pvp only.
I replied to him and quoted his statement specifically for a reason. I didn't say anything else. His statement isn't the same as what you and others are saying. Why get so defensive over something that has nothing to do with you? Why jump to the conclusion that I've said something that you think could be taken as a small positive about the changes and feel "Oh no, please don't say anything that could be construed as justification for these changes because you are undermining our efforts to try to stop these changes?"
His misplaced (and very ironic) statement is what is undermining any reasonable discourse.
No defensiveness was shown but anyway you did say the other changes to stealth are generally positive in PVE. I did ask if you had tested it.
OK apart from asking for a class reroll, we should tell you why we think that the changes are terrible for PVE TRs.
Players should always discuss the reasons behind how they feel about changes. Saying you hate it is fine, but it doesn't open the door for any conversations back and forth and is far less likely to result in adjustments that you'd like to see. We do appreciate the different detailed feedback that has been left in the thread so far.
A change of this size is always going to bring up a lot thoughts, many of them unhappy, about how the class they're used to is changing. And in this case, some of the changes probably were a bit too far.
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough. It is also worth making sure everyone knows that Combat Advantage is not working on preview currently ( a fix has been made and hopefully will be in the next preview update). So take that into account with any testing that is being done.
Here are some adjustments we're looking into:
Low Blows: Reverted back to 5/10/15/20/25% Skullcracker: Base duration increased to 10 seconds Skullcracker: Bonus duration increased to 5 seconds One With the Shadows: Damage bonus increased to 40% Shadowborn: Damage increased to 20/40/60/80/100 Duelist's Flurry: Bleed damage restored to previous amount
I also think that Smoke Bomb should be automatic combat advantage, not just when you use it in stealth. The nature of the ability logically demands that. Also it helps stack with other combat advantage abilities which will give us some damage back, and combat advantage is one of the key elements of the TR class. Also, it should apply for the whole party to have combat advantage against the enemy. This will also help the players of other classes want TR's to be in dungeons. Abilities that both help in solo play and mesh with other classes. We don't have much to buff, so that would be a help there. I really hate that stuns and whatnot don't work on bosses, but having other class features still apply would really help there. Combat Advantage like that granted from Smoke Bomb would be a good one for mobs and bosses.
And I also agree with those who say to not nerf movement speed. TR's by their very nature should be the fastest of the classes, in base speed and abilities. Mobility is important for us, in many ways much more so than other classes. And a number of them have speed bursts that exceed TR mobility, such as the GWF speed burst. They can have their burst, a fighting charge sounds reasonable for a fighting class, but as a whole, the TR should be naturally faster.
In all fairness I think we'll get a better feel when combat advantage is fixed on the preview, but either way, an ability like Smoke Bomb should grant that whether or not you are in stealth.
I guess its fair enough that Power looping is targeted since the potential was endless even tho it rarely occurred in end-game since there is not time for it. I dont object to putting a stop to the WoB+ITC+CB interaction but at least give us one source of Power increase since we lost all 3. We need high AP gain and for that we need high Power stat because its crucial for us to overlap two Daily powers, because its not possible to compete with just one Daily buff. My suggestion is reverting Whirlwind of Blades to how it was. Power looping without CB giving Power is no longer possible and WoB itself is the greatest nerf because it now gives 40% damage increase while it used to give us ~90% damage increase(without Power loop with CB). You can also nerf WoB to 10% Power per target hit but i dont recommend that because TR will lose large portion of damage when Smoke bomb triggering Aura of Courage 4 times gets fixed. Reverting only WoB would help us a lot. Removing AP gain block from Lurkers Assault would be great addition because we wont stand a chance in longer fights even with WoB reverted.
DF Bleeds damage back to previous is great since it would help low and mid tier TRs, wont affect end-game TRs since they dont use it anyway. Skullcracker duration increase is fantastic, it would give Executioner good run for his money. Currently there is bug with the Skullcracker mark not being extended by damage done, it stays at 6 seconds on Bosses. One with the Shadows increase is also nice and puts Saboteur int othe race with other two trees as well. Shadowborn increase sounds fair, it is weaker than m14 SoD bleed because it used to double dip and SoD itself already was toned town by 1/3 of the damage. Also Shadowborn wont be used everywhere, strictly for single target fights, it will be replaced on mobs and on bosses which have mobs around them.
Bottom line, we need some source of Power stat back, best would be WoB since it has hit us the most and since we need AP gain so much.
This. This right here. Please consider this. It would solve “powerloop” problem, and not take TRs completely out of the game in PVE, while WWoB only has limited usefulness in PVP. If the AP block for Lurkers Assault is lifted, then we could compete, maybe, with the other DPSers and still be seen as a decent pick for endgame content.
It would also allow you to eliminate power looping, and tone us down, without killing our dps so much in PVE, while at the same time, not making us too powerful in PVP content.
I also like the changes to the other feat trees that make the other paths more viable.
Thank you for your response.
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
Tested a few more things again on preview Shadow of Demise 73.65% less damage ( live this is 5 small ticks of damage then one big one. preview as noted says its just one 'big' one which obviously not big ) Shadowborn 63.6% less damage Bleed 36.5% less damage . i did see they were considering restoring this Whirlwind of blades from stealth - 5% more damage Whirlwind of blade not from stealth - 7% more damage
Nice to finally see a comment, but please read the following noworries#8859 or any of the people working on the "balance" of the class, we all can agree that the best combination of feats on preview, no matter the path or what feat combination taken, that the damage output will be lower then the older best combination right? ( no problem with this, just establishing a common ground)
Adding all the possible buffs for the strongest groups of possible feat choices, on aoe we can almost reach around the same amount of buffs feat wise ( gl all of them are really really well balanced here) but on single target it will be a loss of around 15%-20% comparing with the current version, once again no problem with this.
The problem occurs when we take a look at how much we ended up losing on the powers section, here's some examples:
So lets take a look at the at the power changes to see how much we end up losing or gaining but first lets talk about a bug that is the cause for the actual inflation in the damage of the trickster rogues after the SoD buff, no the problem wasn't the buff u gave to the capstone, it was this interaction that made every TR damage sky rocket so please, i beg you to fix this now because if you don't the changes wont have it in account so when it get fixed there goes even more of our damage if we still have any.
The fact that smoke bomb is multi triggering aura of courage 4 times for every damage tick ( this info was obtained using the advanced combat tracker) for comparison before this bug appeared Trs aura of courage damage % would vary between 20%-30%, how much is it with the bug u ask now, well its from 40-50% ( for comparison having it being 30% of our damage is worth as much as a 42.9% buff and having it being 40% is the same as having a buff worth of 66.7%, that's more then 20% damage difference and i was comparing the best scenario before the bug to a worst scenario after bug)
Ok now back to the power changes.
We can all also agree the both WoB and CB both got nerfed by more then half their effectiveness, the thing is we already lost a lot of damage just from feats( i don't know how much you guys are planning for us to lose but lets keep going) as posted on a old post of mine on this thread i showed the difference between the current and future version of the daily usage, after the changes we could only get 1/3 , yes its sad and u can't even keep it going because of the AP block from Lurkers Assault (on this comparison in the "before changes" CB and WoB are used since it gives a bigger benefit then WoB and LA, after the changes CB gives around 8% damage increase when before it would be 40%+), so with that said we can see that on aoe damage tr already lost uhhh, enough?
This was in aoe, now on a Boss without adds we would use CB and LA, this shouldn't change since it still the best option of dailies but there are some differences here:
1- we wont have as much recovery as such we cant get both up as fast so we kinda of lose a bit there. 2- the nerf to CB would make us lose around 12% more damage ( it gave around 20% but we gain around 8% from it ) 3- up time from CB is now 20% lowered as well so that's another minus here.
Final notes: - in aoe we will being doing less then 1/3 ( to not say 1/4 or less) of the maximum dmg we can now on live. - in single target we will be doing around 2/3 of the maximum dmg we can do now on live this is without having into account that press the advantage was changed and we cant even keep up time on it nor the fact that the AoC and SB still need fixing. - the fact of fixing the multi procs of aura of courage on smoke bomb will allow not only to receive a buff somewhere else but to also be less party dependent. - as of now TRs can NOT compete on live server with any dps class with the same skill and gear without having a power share cleric by their side and a paladin with AoC, i don't like being dependent on other classes this much, and you are doing one good thing, you are taking away part of the dependency and advantage we get from them, the thing is that you forgot to compensate somewhere else for the huge loss we got from that change as well.
If any clarification is needed, shoot me a pm or something and i ll try to answer/ explain / talk about the class more in depth if needed, cheers.
Just tested my sabo on preview. 13.5k ilvl on live server, lost my guild boons on test server. so dropped to 13k., plus no CA damage apparently (which kind of screws the numbers up since i run a high charisma build). in a non-dungeon solo environment i usually run adv. position (for full time CA), oppressive darkness which on live procs well with df. With all that being said, and given full time CA - OD would usually be around 15% of my damage (it does scale with power and can crit and all that). However, now even though they "buffed" OD damage, it actually procs a lot less now (mainly the df changes) and only accounted for 9-10% of my damage on test server. It would be an even less percentage if combat advantage damage was actually contributing to my main powers. So go ahead and scratch OD as a NERF, even though they tried to make that look like a buff. I even just used sly flourish as my at will to try and get it to proc more and it was still that bad. This was tested against 3 T-rex's in chult (i wish i had that luck on live server..) Also, what was the point of nerfing advanced position which was 8 seconds before to 5 seconds now? In a party i will have CA anyways so you're not nerfing my damage in a party/dungeon, only nerfing my ability to maintain CA while SOLOING, so what your really doing is just nerfing the defensive buff from it from 8 to 5 seconds. What exactly is that balancing? Also, the blade flurry looks like a buff, but since it was actually firing off more than it should and it was fixed, the buff just counters the fix. So again what looks like a buff, well isn't really. I used to solo the t-rex in chult, took a few minutes, but i did it. On preview I had to call in a guildie (GWF of course..) to help me get CA back up and give me moral support as i struggled to kill barney... and revive me every time i died. The One with the shadows is very nice improvement over current sabo buff, but the damage just wasn't there.
Forgot to add this to the aura of courage part, it was not the buff to SoD that made TRs good, was the bug of AoC and SB it increased our dmg by between 20-30% worth of buffs compared to the 10-15% worth of buffs from SoD ( after fixing its double dip)
Also, one thing to put in your TR notes as you rebuild, i was able to get shadowy opportunity to stack twice (showed 2 on the icon) by stealth-encounter-stealth-encounter combo. It kinda worked and did some extra damage. kinda..
And another thing i forgot to add, if you really wanted to fixed power loop you could simply make what u did with WoB but with CB and Press the Advantage, again as said in another post i explained that WoB works as a buff to the existing power, the fact that Cb and PtA were just checking how much power you had and adding a % of it was what made power loop a thing, meanwhile WoB checks how much power you have, increases it by % amount and when receiving more power it would increase said amount too, so if u made they all work the same adding to each other ( example: WoB giving 60% and CB giving 25% we would endup with 85% )i don't see a problem, this if you guys don't mind about having high power but since you only refereed that power looping was the problem here's a good fix that still nerfs the class but doesn't totally destroy it.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
OK apart from asking for a class reroll, we should tell you why we think that the changes are terrible for PVE TRs.
Players should always discuss the reasons behind how they feel about changes. Saying you hate it is fine, but it doesn't open the door for any conversations back and forth and is far less likely to result in adjustments that you'd like to see. We do appreciate the different detailed feedback that has been left in the thread so far.
A change of this size is always going to bring up a lot thoughts, many of them unhappy, about how the class they're used to is changing. And in this case, some of the changes probably were a bit too far.
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough. It is also worth making sure everyone knows that Combat Advantage is not working on preview currently ( a fix has been made and hopefully will be in the next preview update). So take that into account with any testing that is being done.
Here are some adjustments we're looking into:
Low Blows: Reverted back to 5/10/15/20/25% Skullcracker: Base duration increased to 10 seconds Skullcracker: Bonus duration increased to 5 seconds One With the Shadows: Damage bonus increased to 40% Shadowborn: Damage increased to 20/40/60/80/100 Duelist's Flurry: Bleed damage restored to previous amount
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Please dont remove our movement speed. Why not just buff our encounters without subtracting the mobility? In pve and pop I rely mainly on my mobility to survive. When I am caught its 1 to 3 hits before I am dead by several defensive based classes. Plus they move just as fast as me now or faster, and I am the class that should have the mobility and power. Remove the speed and those who need it will have less build choices on this mod not more. It takes a huge sacrifice to go max mobility. If you add in the stuff we are losing in mod 15 plus mobility. Tr class has fallen into a darker state.
Please leave our mobility intact.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough.
Completely appreciate the need to remove power looping. I do feel that you guys understemated how much that contributed to some TR's damage. I'm unable to make Preview shard work at the moment, but from past experience base damage should really be looked at.
Low Blows: Reverted back to 5/10/15/20/25% Skullcracker: Base duration increased to 10 seconds Skullcracker: Bonus duration increased to 5 seconds One With the Shadows: Damage bonus increased to 40% Shadowborn: Damage increased to 20/40/60/80/100 Duelist's Flurry: Bleed damage restored to previous amount
Thanks for this, but I echo the comments of others that removing movement bonuses is not a good idea for a class that should be fast and mobile. Not only does it take away the feel of the class as a whole, but being outpaced by characters in full armour is embarrassing.
"The main goals of this pass were to make sure that Trickster Rogues have more than 1 viable feat tree" - Sounds like an execuse to nerf the Class (saboteur is used by alot of people for everything but boss fights). Best DPS-Class for not even one MOD and already getting nerfed to the ground. Why would you even consider those changes in the first place? Noone asked for it.
Comments
Just make a TR on live, an then on Preview and actually test the changes you want to push on mod15, and come here to say us again that is an improvement.
I have a 15K TR, and while i can chain minor Barovian HE on live without losing 1 hp, i barely stay alive when i try 1 Barovian HE on preview, even after testing others paths/trees.
My 11K GWF is more powerfull on preview right now than my main TR.
It's not a "balance", it's a murder.
Even considering the fact that actual tests are biased cause of the bug of combat advantage, wich is a main source of damages for us, the changes you proposes for Dailies will kill the class.
Sono incredulo e molto dubbioso su questo nerf...
Sono davvero curioso di vedere il nuovo danno di TR nel mod 15, voi sviluppatori dite che lo fate per migliorare il nosro modo di giocare...ne siete veramente sicuri ? vedremo..
(Quando avete cambiato la raffinazione dei diamanti astrali, avete detto che lo avete fatto perchè era stato richiesto dai giocatori, beh, leggendo i vari commenti, tutti dicevano di non cambiare la raffinazione a 100k per giorno, ma questa è un altra storia)
Tornando al Ladro...purtroppo sono su ps4 e, non ho la possibilità di vedere e testare la differenza del danno, quindi posso solo sperare che i ladri su pc trovino una soluzione a questi drastici cambiamenti...
Per tanti, e dico tanti mesi, noi ladri non siamo stati invitati nei dungeons content, perchè avevamo un basso danno...con le ultime mod 13/14, abbiamo iniziato a crescere e ad essere competitivi con le altre classi dps...era bello stare alla pari delle altre classi dps...detto questo...non mi dispererò e non piangerò per questo drastico nerf, ovviamente non sono d'accordo su questo mega nerf, ad ogni modo, vedremo se avrete fatto passi avanti, o avrete fatto passi indietro.
English version:
I am incredulous and very doubtful about this nerf ...
I'm really curious to see the new damage of TR in mod 15, you developers say you do it to improve our way of playing ... are you really sure? we'll see..
(When you changed the refining of the astral diamonds, you said you did it because it was requested by the players, well, reading the various comments, everyone said not to change the refinement to 100k per day, but that's another story)
Returning to the Thief ... unfortunately I'm on ps4 and, I can not see and test the difference in damage, so I can only hope that the thieves on the pc find a solution to these drastic changes ...
For many, and I say many months, we thieves were not invited in the dungeons content, because we had a low damage ... with the latest mod 13/14, we started to grow and be competitive with other dps classes ... it was nice to stay on par with other dps classes ... said this ... I will not despair and I will not cry for this drastic nerf, obviously I do not agree on this mega nerf, however, we'll see if you have made progress, or you will have taken steps back.
Many of these changes do have their roots in suggestions good TRs have made over the years and its clear some real effort and resources was put into this rework attempt. I don't buy the notion that the devs have a vendetta against TRs, never make attempts to listen to us, or that this was an attempt to kill their own game or anything like that. That said, there are a few disastrously bad changes thrown into the mix that far outweigh the impact of the good changes also contained in this rework. I'd like to urge the devs to fix the worst of this rework's flaws before they hit live. It looks to me like the devs genuinely thought they were giving us a fair tradeoff and didn't realize the full extent of how reliant we are on the things they nerfed.
I read and reread the changes multiple times on the first day. What I first expected would be the result of these changes didn't match reality once me and other TRs started running tests on preview.
Overview of the rework's effects on PVE TRs:
On paper, I was expecting PVE TRs to have only mildly been nerfed and the feat buffs to make up for most of what was lost. I was dead wrong, the feat buffs come nowhere close to the amount of dps we just lost, we lost around half of our total dps in PVE. Stripping the power bonuses from courage breaker, whirlwind of blades, and press the advantage + the nerf to SOD + the nerfs to some of our powers such as duelists flurry take away a lot more than what we got back in feat buffs + buffs to some of our powers. We still do enough damage to clear content at the very least but will be miles behind most if not all other DPSers in endgame content.
Overview of the rework's effects on PVP TRs:
Even more surprisingly, my expectations of what effect these changes would have on PVP TRs also didn't match reality. I was expecting the feat buffs to result in overpowered scoundrel and sabotuer trees and executioner to be the weakest tree but still usable. I was also expecting both M15 scoundrel and M15 sabotuer to be much stronger than their counterparts on live. I am not completely finished with my testing but so far, my tests indicate that PVP TR dps for all 3 feat trees actually went down way more than it went up. While nowhere near the crippling status of the PVE nerfs, PVP TRs might need a few small tweaks since some of our attacks were watered down too much and our overall dps seems weirdly low so far. In particular, the nerfs to bloodbath, duelist's flurry, press the advantage, and smokebomb seem to be the main culprits for the low dps output other than the lack of CA damage on preview, more on that below:
It should be noted that combat advantage damage being completely absent on preview adds another major nerf that won't be present on live, CA damage is a lot of damage in PVP. Once these changes go live, bloodbath dps should improve enough to work with along with most of our other viable attacks. Bloodbath probably won't nuke people anymore though, which is a good thing. Duelist's flurry on the other hand, will still be too watered down and need a damage increase.
I do wonder how these TR changes will interact with the upcoming nerf to recovery in PVP. So far its unclear if the recovery nerf will launch in module 15 or not but a spoiler from the devs was dropped about this on the PVP forums and it sounded like we will be getting that soon.
The best important thing to come out of this rework:
The best thing so far to come out of this rework is that it succeeded in making the 3 feat trees more balanced with eachother for both PVE and PVP. In particular, most of the feat changes to sabotuer and scoundrel look great and would be great if not for the pile of overkill nerfs that came with them. The good news is these feat changes aren't a waste of effort since the TR feat trees should remain better balanced with eachother when general TR dps is scaled back up again.
I am also psyched that scoundrel has been brought back from the dead in PVE. Previously, scoundrel was only good in PVP though was behind the other 2 trees in performance.
On the TR rework's general nerf to movement speed:
I am displeased with the movement speed nerfs. TRs are supposed to be a fast moving striker class after all and with the reduced movement speed, building for movement speed will be much less rewarding and TRs will be less good at building for speed than several other classes. Right now, movement speed plays an important role for most classes in PVP and many PVE TRs have a speed loadout they like to play with when they are soloing.
While Impossible to catch did get a 25% movement speed buff tacked onto it, this buff only works when we use it from stealth, which people simply don't do in PVP or PVE since we need our stealth for other more important things. ITC also lasts 4 seconds now instead of 5 and with the recovery nerf to PVP on the way, revamped ITC isn't a suitable replacement for our lost movement speed.
Skillful infiltrator had 5% of its movement speed increase cut off in exchange for 1% more crit and deflect.
This tradeoff wasn't necessary, skillful infiltrator isn't part of any meta build and the only people running it are using it for speed loadouts or undergeared toons. Please put the 5% movement speed back.
Sneak attack also had a major speed nerf made to it, it was 40% movement speed while in stealth and now its only 25%.
The 10% cooldown reduction that replaced much of that movement speed is something PVE TRs are unlikely to use. It will also make PVPers in other classes nervous even though PVP TRs won't run it since we have better options anyway.
Truth be told, this is the only TR speed nerf I don't care much about since the new version is slightly more interesting to me than the old version. However I will mention that many other TRs don't feel the same way and would rather have the old sneak attack back.
The scoundrel tree also had its 15% extra movement speed taken out. I understand why the devs didn't want it on the greatly improved M15 version of scou's capstone feat but please don't pull the 15% movement speed out of the tree entirely.
Instead, please consider replacing the survivor feat with a permanent 15% movement speed increase and remove some of the extra deflect you gave scoundrels as part of the M15 rework. The reworked survivor feat is still crappy even after the M15 rework and the amount of deflect chance scoundrels got is way more than we needed.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
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Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
No?
Why not?
Afraid they'll all agree with the criticism in this thread?
But the stealth isnt the main thing as when you are doing so much less damage it doesnt matter all that much.
Go on the test server and check it for yourself. most people are reporting around 40% less damage which seems consistent with what I experienced. I know Duellists Flurry on preview does 31.5% less dmg on the first two hits and 40.5% less dmg on the follow up hits.
His misplaced (and very ironic) statement is what is undermining any reasonable discourse.
Stealth changes: Mostly irrelevant for PVE, Stealth is mainly used for initiating attacks and abilities such as SoD. PVE TRs stay stealthed for mere split seconds. So these changes hardly make a difference in PVE
Duelist Flurry (The TR’s primary source of dps damage against single targets) changes:
• 100% bleed chance for every swing: Useless, any TR should be able to maintain max stacks as it is now. Basically you give us nothing in order to excuse yourself for taking away other useful abilities
• Final combo now lasts for 6 attacks, instead of 9: That is a NERF, it takes quite a few seconds to get to the final combo, IF you don’t get interrupted or the mob/boss moves away and now when you finally get to that point you’ll do 30% less damage/attacks
• Final combo's animation time has been halved. Were you going to have us do less attacks (6) and still have an animation that was for 9 attacks? That’s not a bonus, that’s one of the side-effects of the nerf
• The final combo of this power no longer reduces your stealth meter by a large amount. None cares about stealth regen in PVE as it was stated earlier
• Bleed damage lowered by ~40%. That is a massive nerf to the TR’s main source of damage
Cloud of Steel changes: Hardly relevant to the PVE content, this skill is rarely used to agro distant mobs, so thanks for nothing
Sly Flourish changes: The skill is still useless in PVE, thanks for nothing
Gloaming Cut: The skill is still useless in PVE, thanks for nothing
Disheartening Strike, basically a 12% damage increase. A good step towards helping the Whisper Knife specialization that hardly anyone uses
Bait and Switch changes: The skill is still useless in PVE, thanks for nothing
Blitz changes: The skill is still useless in PVE, thanks for nothing
Vengeance's Pursuit changes: The skill is still useless in PVE, thanks for nothing
Smoke Bomb changes: Another main PVE encounter having its damage massively nerfed, -30% damage
Shadowy Disappearance: The skill is still useless in PVE, thanks for nothing
Impossible to Catch changes (Another main PVE encounter): Basically now it lasts 1 second less, grants half of the damage resistance it used to and its recharge time increased. A nerf!
Blade Flurry changes (our other AoE encounter, other than the nerfed smoke bomb): a 43% damage increase and a longer recharge time. Well this is actually good!
Deft Strike changes: The skill is still useless in PVE, thanks for nothing
So to sum up, you massively nerfed the skills that are actually used in PVE, reduced TR survivability, made tweaks to other skills that are still useless in PVE, boosted the Whisper Knife spec a bit and improved one AoE encounter. The Duelist Flurry and smoke bomb changes alone will result in a massive nerf to the PVE TR’s damage.
You were saying that the time all the TRs were waiting for (several years now) has finally came … really now? REALLY?
A change of this size is always going to bring up a lot thoughts, many of them unhappy, about how the class they're used to is changing. And in this case, some of the changes probably were a bit too far.
We do want to stick to having the power looping aspect of TR removed, but some other adjustments may not have been needed and some compensation changes may not have been enough. It is also worth making sure everyone knows that Combat Advantage is not working on preview currently ( a fix has been made and hopefully will be in the next preview update). So take that into account with any testing that is being done.
Here are some adjustments we're looking into:
Low Blows: Reverted back to 5/10/15/20/25%
Skullcracker: Base duration increased to 10 seconds
Skullcracker: Bonus duration increased to 5 seconds
One With the Shadows: Damage bonus increased to 40%
Shadowborn: Damage increased to 20/40/60/80/100
Duelist's Flurry: Bleed damage restored to previous amount
1) Move to another MMO game.
2) Stop supporting NW ( don't buy vip )
3) Ask for REFUND. Wasted $ on a class that's being nerfed to the ground.
All of the money that was being invested on a nerfed class should be given back !!
¨˜ˆ”°¹~•-.„¸ρℓαуιиg иєνєяωιитєя ѕιи¢є 2015¸„.-•~¹°”ˆ˜¨
I get trying to stop the power loop, I really do. However, even with the proposed changes you have just given us, it doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of TRs are losing roughly 50% of their damage.
We want to achieve "A" but know it won't be received well.
So let's tell the community we are making all of these terrible changes in addition to A. Community blows up, we now "listen" by rolling back some of those additional changes to "improve" things and arrive in state "A" as originally desired. Only now we have a community thanking us for listening and supporting them in some way.
Eg, bonding get severe nerf but we'll also tell them that uptime is 50%. It's outrage! Ok ok, we went too far, have your uptime back, now say thanks for the nerf.
TRs, we completely destroyed your class, outrage, ok ok, "some adjustments may not have been needed", now, go on, be grateful. Gee thanks Devs, so glad you listened.....
First of all thanks that finally a respond come from one of the devs...
So, I can’t Test your changes because I’m on PS4 but what I read about it seems to be the prophecy of doom for our TR class a as a DPS class...
It is great you want to make other builds more playable than the EXE build but to do that it necessary to kill the EXE build? I don’t think so... and just a question for you: you want that more other builds will be played than the EXE, shouldn’t be that the same for GWF destroyer builds too?
The TR is most hated class in NW in pvp for killing to fast (what the TR stands for imo) and in PVE for not enough DPS for end game. I finally got a 17k TR and I can rarely run CR or CODG because no one is taking a TR when they can have a GWF xD and your changes now will make it even worse...
Okay if you are in a rank 20 guild with a lot of end gamers than you can run these things in a few min but we can’t when we are not in R20 guilds and there we need our DPS where it is to compete with all others and at least play end game stuff...
We TRs need our boss killer style to be relevant in this game
I think to Stop the pvp fight about the TR is:
1. Do seperate feats special designed for pvp where you can choose a balanced skill set for all classes...
Or
2. like some before me said: split pvp from pve
For us who love our TRs how they are work (since mod 13/14) now is at least something we wanted for a long time
Please re-think that changes for people who are not R20 guild players because they will be hit the most of that
Hopefully you stop the crippling change before it happens really and kill the game for me (and probably for many TRs aswell)
These revisions to the previous rework look good so far.
Also, while I understand why powerlooping would be something your team would want to put and end to, keep in mind that powerlooping and power self buffs have been around for a long time and pre-date the series of buffs that were made to Shadow of demise over the last year. It wasn't until the buffed version of SOD came onto the scene that TR dps climbed a little bit too high in some situations in PVE, this was the case for slower fights that you usually get in pug runs and even then, occasionally members of other classes that are a cut above the rest do top you. In faster fights, other dps classes doing competitive match ups against TRs win way more often than TRs do. At least 5 classes are also able to one rotate kill bosses just like TRs can.
I think a really important question that should be asked is why is it that TR dps is so dependent on all of that extra power + M14 monster SOD + other smaller factors? If you want to remove our power buffs entirely or even just end powerlooping, I think its worth taking a look at our base damage among other factors and consider increasing them. Something is clearly off if it takes that much extra power + giant procs + other smaller factors to compete in PVE.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
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Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
My suggestion is reverting Whirlwind of Blades to how it was. Power looping without CB giving Power is no longer possible and WoB itself is the greatest nerf because it now gives 40% damage increase while it used to give us ~90% damage increase(without Power loop with CB).
You can also nerf WoB to 10% Power per target hit but i dont recommend that because TR will lose large portion of damage when Smoke bomb triggering Aura of Courage 4 times gets fixed.
Reverting only WoB would help us a lot. Removing AP gain block from Lurkers Assault would be great addition because we wont stand a chance in longer fights even with WoB reverted.
DF Bleeds damage back to previous is great since it would help low and mid tier TRs, wont affect end-game TRs since they dont use it anyway.
Skullcracker duration increase is fantastic, it would give Executioner good run for his money. Currently there is bug with the Skullcracker mark not being extended by damage done, it stays at 6 seconds on Bosses.
One with the Shadows increase is also nice and puts Saboteur int othe race with other two trees as well.
Shadowborn increase sounds fair, it is weaker than m14 SoD bleed because it used to double dip and SoD itself already was toned town by 1/3 of the damage. Also Shadowborn wont be used everywhere, strictly for single target fights, it will be replaced on mobs and on bosses which have mobs around them.
Bottom line, we need some source of Power stat back, best would be WoB since it has hit us the most and since we need AP gain so much.
I also think that Smoke Bomb should be automatic combat advantage, not just when you use it in stealth. The nature of the ability logically demands that. Also it helps stack with other combat advantage abilities which will give us some damage back, and combat advantage is one of the key elements of the TR class. Also, it should apply for the whole party to have combat advantage against the enemy. This will also help the players of other classes want TR's to be in dungeons. Abilities that both help in solo play and mesh with other classes. We don't have much to buff, so that would be a help there. I really hate that stuns and whatnot don't work on bosses, but having other class features still apply would really help there. Combat Advantage like that granted from Smoke Bomb would be a good one for mobs and bosses.
And I also agree with those who say to not nerf movement speed. TR's by their very nature should be the fastest of the classes, in base speed and abilities. Mobility is important for us, in many ways much more so than other classes. And a number of them have speed bursts that exceed TR mobility, such as the GWF speed burst. They can have their burst, a fighting charge sounds reasonable for a fighting class, but as a whole, the TR should be naturally faster.
In all fairness I think we'll get a better feel when combat advantage is fixed on the preview, but either way, an ability like Smoke Bomb should grant that whether or not you are in stealth.
It would also allow you to eliminate power looping, and tone us down, without killing our dps so much in PVE, while at the same time, not making us too powerful in PVP content.
I also like the changes to the other feat trees that make the other paths more viable.
Thank you for your response.
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
Shadow of Demise 73.65% less damage
( live this is 5 small ticks of damage then one big one. preview as noted says its just one 'big' one which obviously not big )
Shadowborn 63.6% less damage
Bleed 36.5% less damage . i did see they were considering restoring this
Whirlwind of blades from stealth - 5% more damage
Whirlwind of blade not from stealth - 7% more damage
Adding all the possible buffs for the strongest groups of possible feat choices, on aoe we can almost reach around the same amount of buffs feat wise ( gl all of them are really really well balanced here) but on single target it will be a loss of around 15%-20% comparing with the current version, once again no problem with this.
The problem occurs when we take a look at how much we ended up losing on the powers section, here's some examples:
So lets take a look at the at the power changes to see how much we end up losing or gaining but first lets talk about a bug that is the cause for the actual inflation in the damage of the trickster rogues after the SoD buff, no the problem wasn't the buff u gave to the capstone, it was this interaction that made every TR damage sky rocket so please, i beg you to fix this now because if you don't the changes wont have it in account so when it get fixed there goes even more of our damage if we still have any.
The fact that smoke bomb is multi triggering aura of courage 4 times for every damage tick ( this info was obtained using the advanced combat tracker) for comparison before this bug appeared Trs aura of courage damage % would vary between 20%-30%, how much is it with the bug u ask now, well its from 40-50% ( for comparison having it being 30% of our damage is worth as much as a 42.9% buff and having it being 40% is the same as having a buff worth of 66.7%, that's more then 20% damage difference and i was comparing the best scenario before the bug to a worst scenario after bug)
Ok now back to the power changes.
We can all also agree the both WoB and CB both got nerfed by more then half their effectiveness, the thing is we already lost a lot of damage just from feats( i don't know how much you guys are planning for us to lose but lets keep going) as posted on a old post of mine on this thread i showed the difference between the current and future version of the daily usage, after the changes we could only get 1/3 , yes its sad and u can't even keep it going because of the AP block from Lurkers Assault (on this comparison in the "before changes" CB and WoB are used since it gives a bigger benefit then WoB and LA, after the changes CB gives around 8% damage increase when before it would be 40%+), so with that said we can see that on aoe damage tr already lost uhhh, enough?
This was in aoe, now on a Boss without adds we would use CB and LA, this shouldn't change since it still the best option of dailies but there are some differences here:
1- we wont have as much recovery as such we cant get both up as fast so we kinda of lose a bit there.
2- the nerf to CB would make us lose around 12% more damage ( it gave around 20% but we gain around 8% from it )
3- up time from CB is now 20% lowered as well so that's another minus here.
Final notes:
- in aoe we will being doing less then 1/3 ( to not say 1/4 or less) of the maximum dmg we can now on live.
- in single target we will be doing around 2/3 of the maximum dmg we can do now on live this is without having into account that press the advantage was changed and we cant even keep up time on it nor the fact that the AoC and SB still need fixing.
- the fact of fixing the multi procs of aura of courage on smoke bomb will allow not only to receive a buff somewhere else but to also be less party dependent.
- as of now TRs can NOT compete on live server with any dps class with the same skill and gear without having a power share cleric by their side and a paladin with AoC, i don't like being dependent on other classes this much, and you are doing one good thing, you are taking away part of the dependency and advantage we get from them, the thing is that you forgot to compensate somewhere else for the huge loss we got from that change as well.
If any clarification is needed, shoot me a pm or something and i ll try to answer/ explain / talk about the class more in depth if needed, cheers.
Please dont remove our movement speed.
Why not just buff our encounters without subtracting the mobility?
In pve and pop I rely mainly on my mobility to survive.
When I am caught its 1 to 3 hits before I am dead by several defensive based classes.
Plus they move just as fast as me now or faster, and I am the class that should have the mobility and power.
Remove the speed and those who need it will have less build choices on this mod not more.
It takes a huge sacrifice to go max mobility.
If you add in the stuff we are losing in mod 15 plus mobility.
Tr class has fallen into a darker state.
Please leave our mobility intact.
Completely appreciate the need to remove power looping. I do feel that you guys understemated how much that contributed to some TR's damage.
I'm unable to make Preview shard work at the moment, but from past experience base damage should really be looked at. Thanks for this, but I echo the comments of others that removing movement bonuses is not a good idea for a class that should be fast and mobile.
Not only does it take away the feel of the class as a whole, but being outpaced by characters in full armour is embarrassing.