Power: Here is a list of Power change suggestions.
At will: Sly Flourish - Idea: Simple and base At-Will - i like the suggested changes: instead of breaking dmg on target after one combo, it now gets more - suggestion, if used in stealth: one more stack of broken armor debuff (adds on the first combo when invisible, on top of the normal stack debuff (2 stacks at once, if not already 3)), stack disappear if you leave stealth)
Cloud of Steel: - Idea: Simple and base Ranged! At-Will. - I think buffing dmg won't be enough to make this popular. I would suggest to make this a PvP skill, where you have the advantage by having range. Of course enemys will try to close this range, so my suggestion: -When enemys moving towards you, you have a 5% chance to stun them for 0.2 sec. If you attack them in their back, they get 5% more damage. -in stealth: Chance to stun increased to 10%, damage from back increased to 10%
Duelist's Flurry: - Usual combo is getting the bleed and then doing sly florish while bleed is running. Of course getting the bleed faster is nice, so you can focus on sly florish, but Duelist's Flurry loses it's purpose, if the bleeddamge is too low. - Suggestion: Duelist Flurry animation runs even faster (1 stack (damage of 5 stacks)), and only 50% of stealth loss (less if you have the Improved Cunning Sneak Feat). - 2 stacks limited for each player, not on each enemy. - in stealth, you can add 1 more stack. if you loose stealth and have made one stack with stealth, but now have 2 stacks, you can do the third while not being in stealth. - losing stealth doesn't end the "stealth stack" - -30% damage on bleed is already enough to consider taking Gloaming Cut or Disheartening Strike with you instead Duelist's Flurry.
Gloaming Cut: - the main problem with this is the charge time. It is an execution skill, so you want to do it last. The problem with a long charge time is, that you can't estimate (for example with lots of DoT or many friends attacking) when the best time is to use this skill. Reducing charge time is good, but i would suggest to reduce the charge time to 0, and increase the cooldown after that skill to 3 seconds. - The longer you don't use this skill, up to 15 sec, the more damage is charged up to 300%. - i would move stealth gain on kill to the feat Sneaky Stabber. - Stealth gain for 8 sec on use is good. If used in stealth, you get 5% more stealth regeneration. It looses sightly more stealth.
Disheartening Strike: - Suggested change are all good, in combination with the buffed feat Distracting Knife - in stealth it could give sightly better improvements. It looses sightly more stealth.
Passivs/Class Feature: First Strike: Would change it to 20 sec cooldown, while being stealthed decrease cooldown by 50%, if going out of combat -> reset cooldown. Tenacious Concealment: Could become less useful with changes to stealth. Maybe sightly buff it or add a small chance that while you are not in stealth, you have a small chance that powers are considered as stealth.
MI: Infiltrator's Action: should add: every enemy hit by a daily is sightly more vulnerable to cc. Advantageous Position: could be combined with other power which give you combat advantage into: If in 20' range there is no enemy without combat advantage for you or you had global combat advantage before, the resistance is doubled.
WK: Razor Action: good, would add the featpart Razor Action now deals an additional 10/20/30/40/50% of its damage as a brief Damage Over Time effect, which trigger when you were invisible in the last 5 sec before or something like that
Dailys: Bloodbath: can't really say if it needs a nerf, but i guess it is ok, it is a pvp skill and tr is buffed in pvp. Whirlwind of Blades: changes are ok, if there are compensation for the missing damage, like my suggested T5 feats. Courage Breaker: changes are ok, same as above Shocking Execution: This skill is an execution, but you can use it twice. Ok there is nothing wrong with that, if the first execution misses, you have a second try. But the feat which buffs it, is in executioner, which uses a DoT execution. And two executions are usually bad. The feat which buffes Shocking Execution is a T2 treat, so reachable even if you take Scoundrel and want to kill other player with it. (or you want to play executener and look sometimes inside an arena) And if you use it on monster, it deals alot of damage, so for monster it should be changed into a dmg skill. Suggestion: If Shocking Execution is used against player, let it how it is. If Shocking Execution is used against monster, you only lose the % of the remaining health of the target monster. Every further use will add -10% of Actionpoints used for 10 sec. Which mean, if you target a boss who has 20% HP left the 3rd time the last 10 sec, you have 50% Action point loss.
Encounter Deft Strike: - add Target has a debuff for 5 sec, all attacks from you to this target count as if it would attack out of his back. Bait and Switch: Because Executioner won't use smoke bomb anymore, he will probably use this skill more. For that make it a little Executioner friendly: - 15 sec cooldown, stays active 4 sec, - 20% of tr health - if used in stealth, decoy will explode after 3 sec, or if it is destroyed, if not in stealth, decoy will explode if destroyed. Blitz: I like the suggested new stealth passiv, but i would not increase the cooldown of this skill. Path of the Blade: Will not be used after buffing Blade Flurry. - add, if path of blade is still running and you enter stealth, path of blade deals double damage while you are in stealth. (doesn't add Shadow of Demise every tick, only on first) Impact Shot: changes are good, would add for the next 4 seconds, your at-will power Cloud of Steel dmg is buffed by 10% for this target
I actually like 95% of the changes, because they add more viable playstyles, but i think the main problem is, that the playstyles of the Paragonpaths and Feat paths are not well characterized.
Most people dislike the suggested changes, not because they remove the damage from TR but remove the damage from all skills which are currently only aviable and oversee that that update would allow a lot more aviable playstyles. In the early game state (lvl 1-70) it wouldn't even be noticed and the player could play with this class a lot more enjoyable. If you would change the damage from Duelist's Flurry, Smoke Bomb, Whirlwind of Blades and Courage Breaker back, everyone would be quite, but that doesn't mean that it is better. But it is true, that the other playstyles can't compensate the high damage which you could create with Whirlwind of Blades, so i suggest to rechange Tier5 feats to heavy damage buff feats. so that in lategame the tr doesn't have to be buried.
Here is a suggestion how you can define the paths better:
First i want to say that i like the suggested basic stealth change. All my suggestions are building up on the already suggested changes from the first post in this thread.
I don't repeat changes from the first post and don't list skills/feats i don't change
Paragon paths:
Masterinfiltrator (MI) - Good combination with Scoundrel and Saboteur Passiv: get Advantageous Position
Whisperknife (WK) - Good combination with Executioner and Saboteur Passiv: get Invisible Infiltrator (rename, suggestion Silent Disciple) Daily: Change -> Lurker's Assault Hateful Knives on place of Lurker's Assault
Feats Saboteur (PvP and PvE focus) Idea - Instant high damage - in combination with keeping stealth.
T6 One with the Shadows - Idea: you don't loose stealth, your first encounter power deals more damage - Add passiv- If out of combat activated stealth decrease only 40% as fast as in combat. If you had 6 sec stealth, you have 15 sec stealth (or with Improved Cunning Sneak even more) - The first encounterpower triggering "One with the shadows" deal 30% more damage. - (If stealthed the cooldown from 15 sec is reduced 30% faster, damage buff lasts only 10 sec, must be tested)
T5 Ambusher's Haste (new name: Ambusher's patience) - Idea: Main damage amplifying feat: The longer you are invisible, the more dangerous you are. - Every second being in stealth increase your damage output by 10% for 15 seconds. - Stacks up to 15 times. - If you reenter stealth you can get up to 5 extra stacks which can go over the limit of 15 times and also stay 15 seconds.
T5 Shadowy Opportunity - Idea: more damage - exchange with Shadowborn from Executioner path.
T4 Return to Shadows - Idea: Faster stealth regain. - instead instantly refilling: For the next 3 seconds stealth refills 7,14,21,28,35% faster. Can trigger if stealthed, can only trigger if not active.
T4 Gutterborn's Touch - Idea more damage when attacking from behind. - When attacking an enemy from behind, increase your Armor Penetration and Damage Dealt by 2/4/6/8/10% - I wouldn't combine it with combat advantage.
T2 Knife's Edge - wrong path, move to Executioner T2 Instead add Twisted Grin in this path with suggested changes.
T2 Sneaky Stabber (MI) - Idea: Faster stealth regain. - if target dies with or in the next second after using Gloaming Cut on him, instantly regain 20% of stealth
T2 Distracting Knife (WK) - Move to Executioner path, get Seething Knives - Seething Knives: remove, instead buff "Lurkers Assault" (Name: Lunatic night): lurkers assault can build up Actionpoints while active. - Change Razor Action buff to Class Feature itself
T1 Flashing Blades - Your At-Will powers deal 2/4/6/8/10% more damage when your Stealth is active. - If the stealth meter isn't full, gain 2,4,6,8,10% movement speed and stamina resturation for 5 sec after using an at-will. can only be active once. If entering stealth, remove this buff.
T1 Shady Preparations - wrong path, move to Executioner. - move Aerial Cut here
Scoundrel Feats (PvP focus)
Idea: You are more tanky trough deflect, enemys are more weaker with crowd control, this path should focus on combat advantage, stealth is good (more stealth, more combat advantage) but not mandatory.
T6 Skullcracker - Idea: more cc on enemys, more damage for you. - suggestions are good - add: every 0.5 sec if an enemy is controlled (for real, not through the skullcracker passiv mark), he is damaged 2% of his max HP as piercing damage. No interaction with other damage modificators. (lowered for bosses)
T5 Low Blows - Idea more damage - Would add a stacking buff: every time you cc an enemy, your combat advantage damage increases by 10% (so they feel like an second crit) - stacks up to 15 times, for 15 sec, similar like T5 Ambusher's patience. - keep bonus damage of old feat against controlled targets
T3 Back Alley Tactics - change bonus damage to - your deflection stats,chances and movementspeed increase your combat advantage stat by X%
T2 Seething Knives (WK) - move to Saboteur path, get Determined Pursuit
T1 Bloody Brawler - maybe needs higher percentage
Executioner Feats (PvE focus)
Idea: Lot of damage (against bosses), Building up damage, crit, lots of recovery and encounter use, low stealth
T6 Shadow of Demise - Idea: Heavy free damage, but only after a time, making it not that good in PvP (instant dmg > DoT) Because you won't go that often in stealth, after stealth regeneration is increased to 12.5 sec, it is a heavy nerf to this dominating feat In my opinion it nerfes the wrong way. Better do it towards a heavy boss killing Feat - It is active for 8 seconds (and can be activated after 8 sec again trough stealth) - small foes are dead after that time anyway - If the enemy heals himself (trough heal or lifesteal, not regeneration) the piercing damage is reduced by the value of 50% of the heal.
T5 Shadowborn - move to Saboteur path T5 Losing controll (new) - Idea: after removing all the bonus damage, why not add a little bit here with a pass characterizing playstyle - Everytime you use an encounter/daily power (while being in combat), your power stat increases - using an encounter power increase power by 8%, stacks endless, stack duration 15 sec.
T5 Exposed Weakness - moving to saboteur path is good T5 Blood Soaked Blades - would move it to T4 T5 Experienced Killer (new) - A crit chance over 100% increases the crit damage instead
T4 Twisted Grin - When an enemy dies, you get a buff - In my opinion not that good, to add Lifesteal, doesn't fit to this path, in fact it would be a lot better in Saboteur, also with at-wills. You stay stealthed until someone dies, and then you do your moves. -Suggetion, move Blood Soaked Blades to here
T2 Devastating Shroud (MI) - skill changed (look Powers) - If used against Monster -> increases your Critical Chance and Critical Severity for 6 sec. - if used against Player -> Increase combat advantage stats for this skill only.
T2 Determined Pursuit (WK) - move to Scoundrel, get Distracting Knife (rename into something else)
T2 Vicious Pursuit - exchange with Knife's Edge - Add to Knife's Edge, reduce cooldown by 0.2,0.4,0.6,0.8,1 sec or 3,6,9,12,15%, whatever is better for each encounter.
T1 Arterial Cut - move Shady Preparations here - Rename Shady Preparations into "Warming up", remove stealth out of it. - You get +1,2,3,4,5% more recovery.
Heroic feats: T2 - Cunning Ambusher (5x) - better would be, 3,3.5,4,5,6% more damage for 2,3,4,5,6 sec T2 - Swift Footwork (3x) - better would be 5,10,15% more Stamina regeneration T3 - Endless Assault (5x) - 2,4,6,8,10% more encounter damage T3 - Twilight Adept (3x) - 4,8,12% stealth regeneration for 5 sec after dodge roll, not stackable T4 - Disciple of Strength (5x) - Increase the amount of bonus damage Strength gives you by 2,3,4,5,6%. T4 - Improved Cunning Sneak (3x) - Sneak last 8,16,25% longer
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited September 2018
Blade Flurry only gives action points on the hit that puts it on cooldown. It should either give AP on every hit, or it should give 8% AP on the final hit.
They talk about rebalancing but all they've done these last 3 mods was nerf all dps classes except gwf. Leaving them to be the only dps choice when running end game content. COMPLETE BULLS**T!
The return to shadows feat states that it refills 25% of your stealth meter when you hit a target with an encounter power from behind. However, it is only granting the 25% stealth on live. On preview, the stealth gain for this feat doesn't work at all. I tested this on players and dummies alike on both servers.
I haven't done a test on the damage bonus for this feat yet so unsure if it is also broken.
2 Scoundrel scullcracker feat bugs:
Duelist's flurry's bleeds are procing scullcracker. I tested this by procing scullcracker with 1 DF and then doing 2 more DFs before I stopped attacking altogether. Several seconds after stopping my attacks, the bleeds were the only thing still going but scullcracker proced again. This technically may not be a bug since the tooltip simply states that at wills and encounters proc this capstone. Technically DOTs are part of this attack but this capstone should be updated to no longer proc from DOTs period.
Occasionally scullcracker's debuff bar icon says X2, I have not quite figured out what is causing it to do that. I also do not know yet whether or not this is only a bug with the icon or if the actual damage of this capstone is also being doubled.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
I've been playing and working on my TR since 2014 (just love the TR playing style) and after years in the wilderness i have finally been able to give GWF's with a similar item level a run for their money in terms of dps output. Now these proposed changes will effectively remove the TR from the game in my view. No more paingiver for TR. Whatever happened to the TR's as being best dps against single target (boss). I sincerely hope you rethink some of these proposed changes because this news has really taken the wind out of my sails in terms of continuing with Neverwinter. I have invested a huge amount of time and a substantial amount of cash in this game and while i understand the need for balance these proposed changes will remove the TR from end game groups and effectively trash the class.
Dear TRs - I know that right now most of you bleeding from most of your..... whatever.
But I ask you politely to stop. Its not worth your time and effort. Not worth you arguing or going personal... really.
I mean - when was the last time devs actually listened to any of our proposals or objections?
I said that many times before and I am afraid I am gonna say many more:
Devs do not communicate with us - they simply make announcements. It doesn't look like - hey players we got such and such ideas - what you think? No. It more like - we gona do that...... Period.
It happened so many times before that I stopped even commenting. Last time for me was bonding nerf. We gave them tons of feedback, not flaming or hate but real feedback - with proves how many things working. I even believe that there are some players here who have more knowledge about game mechanics that devs themselves. But what effect that made? Nothing, null, zero, nada, zipo.
And to prove I am correct - found grit to read firts 6 pages of thread. After those I just scrolled to check - there was NO answer from a thread starting devs. Just on page 9 I found this:
OK apart from asking for a class reroll, we should tell you why we think that the changes are terrible for PVE TRs.
Players should always discuss the reasons behind how they feel about changes. Saying you hate it is fine, but it doesn't open the door for any conversations back and forth and is far less likely to result in adjustments that you'd like to see. We do appreciate the different detailed feedback that has been left in the thread so far.
First they drop A-bomb and few posts later their bring some minor tweaks to wash tears. Nice. At least those news should be given by @balanced#2849 not @noworries#8859
But in general any moment you start saying that what devs planed is "not smart" or flaming, and you actually closing a thread.
Btw - its cofortable excuse dont you think? - "Our players reacted with hate and anger to our proposal - lets ignore them for that, and continue our work. (Reading a forum in secrecy any way, to find out from smart players how this game really work :d )
Quite contrairly - on proffesion rework devs are present - cos that change is in general welcomed and expected, and looks good on test server.
I am very sorry for you guys. I seen joy in my fellow TRs for last few months when their so much liked toons finally (after years) found their place in end game society. Now its taken away form them again.
So dont waste your time, knowledge and passion here - as from the look of this thread - its lost cause already.
Here may be a workable idea, that will help us TRs as a dps class and contribute to any party we are in. Now this mechanic may already exist, I'm not the expert on game mechanics, so this is just me thinking about stuff and trying to come up with something useful. Once again this is about PVE not PVP, which already abilities are written and applied differently between the two, so the same idea could continue for any new adjustments/abilities. No need to reinvent the wheel, so to speak, just continue with that general process.
And here is the idea... Stackable combat advantage (CA), that when in a party extends to the party as well. All combat advantage damage bonuses stack. And many of the TR's abilities should apply CA as well, being that the idea is a fundamental concept of the class, or at least it logically should be. Being that there are few things equipment-wise that grant a bonus to CA, this should be a major feature of the TR, I would think. This would be a prime way to increase dps and help the whole party, when a TR is in a party. For endgame stuff like dungeons and the like, people would be glad to have a TR in the party as the stackable CA would help everybody. In solo play, this stackable bonus would be a big help to, even against mobs.
Now of course there are ways to limit this, to prevent CA looping or things like that. I have few ideas here as well, these can be useful for PVP limits as well. Now all of these ideas wouldn't have to be used, but the devs can pick and choose the best balance as appropriate (especially in terms of PVE vs PVP).
One way to limit this from getting out of hand is to make the stack additive not multiplicative. Another way is that it could be stackable to a point, put a cap on the stack, say 100% for example. (Could be higher or lower, that's just an easy figure off the top of my head.) Another way could be that only TR CA bonuses stack, not CA from other classes. In a party, perhaps the CA from the TR overrides CA from other classes/sources, or those can still apply, but not to the party, the other classes add their CA only to themselves. If there is more than one TR in a group, either the cap could be higher, or there would be an additional bonus on top of that, or maybe one of those diminishing returns bonuses on top of the stack, say each additional TR in the party increases the cap to half the the previous cap. So, using the above example, the cap would be 150%, for two TR's in a party, and 175% for three. This way it is not pointless to have more than one TR in a group, as all party members benefit from the additional bonus, but that the bonus isn't out of control either.
In summation, I think this kind of idea would be a big help to the class and make people glad to have a TR on board for endgame parties/events. I think this would make it fun for everyone, which is what we want, is it not? There's my idea, I hope it helps!
If I could take a bit of space here to try to break down these problems people have been talking about into something of a set of main issues as I see them...
TR's damage was dependent on potentially broken Power buffing interactions which, due to gear creep, would have only continued to get worse. TR players by and large probably understand why these interactions needed to be fixed, but this currently leaves us in much the same situation you said you wanted to avoid with CW.
Now, I'm going to assume you know how the top-end TR builds work through Arificer's Pursuasion's interaction with TR power self-buffing and understand how that benefits them.
Lurker's Assault is not favored as much by the top end TR because it specifically blocks AP generation other than the DC Sigil and similar buffs, thus invalidating the entire core loop of the currently relevant TR builds.
Personally I feel this all leads back to a small set of core problems with TR's design. In my opinion these may be a lack of base damage or a lack of self buffs, or a problem with TR not being able to sustain the most important self-buffs they have. Long cooldowns could be potentially related as well, but somewhat secondary.
I think when you look at the Executioner tree and the class features TR normally use (Invisible Infiltrator and Infiltrator's Action), to me is seems that TR has a problem of short windows in which they are benefiting from their buffs. Most of these important buffs are attached to the use of Daily powers.
My personal suggestion for Lurker's Assault specifically would be to just give it a cooldown timer of about 30 to 40 seconds and permit the user to gain AP normally during its buff.
My personal suggestion for Lurker's Assault specifically would be to just give it a cooldown timer of about 30 to 40 seconds and permit the user to gain AP normally during its buff.
Having that kind of CD on it would be less uptime than right now with AP gain blocked, so wouldnt really solve or change anything. Atm the TR needs to do daily for stealth refill every about 8 sec, for SoD to even stay competitive endgame. Removing AP block on lurkers and keep it no CD would be a solution to our normal power buffs. But that would allow the TRs to still be competitive endgame. This whole "balance" is about taking TRs away from endgame, so changing lurkers would defeat the whole purpose.
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odinslasherMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 17Arc User
edited September 2018
BUG
Although Preview server has been updated and combat advantage works properly,
1) Our feat "Return to the Shadows" still does not apply 25% more damage on encounters from behind target and does not refill 25% of stealth meter. (on live 25% refill to stealth meter is working)
2) I cannot replicate the bug but sometimes you can endlessly use Blade Flurry without it going on cooldown
Alright, sorry for being really toxic but Im simply out of my nerves when seeing class Im maining being nerfed over and over again and even nerfs are bugged so...
Blade flurry cooldown wont trigger even after spamming this power two minutes in row. Please DEVS... if you really have that passion for nerfing us to the ground, at least do it correctly.
Wow this is ridiculous and why would you nerf skillful infiltrator how was that op ..
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
> @redmoonkarin said: > please leave shadow of demise 75% dont change it . not to menssion I wanna stay wilth 10sec steath cooldown not 12.5 . you taking 50% demage away . > I am disapointed > I will have to leave if they do this to TR
It's better to stay and be vocal than to leave and be silent. That's why criminals get away with stuff.. people dont talk about it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
You have been provided by alternate suggestions to balance and provide a breath of fresh air to TRs by some of the best TRs in this game. It would be great if you guys could update us on what you've thought and plan to do NOW for mod 15.
@noworries#8859 Like the poster above said, it would be helpful to know the latest adjustments and if they will go to preview before new mod goes live so it can be tested before, since there are bugs even among those changes that are on preview now.
Also, is it planned to better compensate the changes to Daily powers before new mod hits Live?
We know that you’ve been asking for it for a while now, but the Trickster Rogue update is finally here! Many At-will, encounter, class feature, and daily powers have been tweaked and updated to be more worthwhile. All three Feat trees have had work done to them to make them more unique and competitive. And, Stealth and Stealth Regeneration have had a handful of adjustments to be less oppressive against other players but more consistent for the Trickster Rogue.
So guys, is this what "you’ve been asking for it for a while now"?
I mean they even noted that they nuked nerf for freak'n PVP! F%$# PVP!
@pitmonster#5684 Imo, the changes are fine except for Daily powers. Both CB and WoB dont give even half of the buff value that they used to and the way they have been reworked also means that we are going to use them less frequently.
Changes to Daily powers affect more things than just Daily powers. It affects our uptime and stack numbers for Invisible Infiltrator and Infiltrators action, it affects our cooldowns, it affects stealth refill which affects SoD uptime. The change to Daily powers triggered more nerfs indirectly and we still have to take a nerf to our damage from Smoke Bomb+Aura of Courage fix.
Again, changes are fine but compensation needs to be a lot better when it comes to Daily powers rework with AoC bomb fix in mind. The only complaint regarding PvP that i saw was the nerf to run speed, wont go into that since im not PvPer.
12 days later there has been exactly one response from the team responsible for mitigating the mess that this is.
Not only are the changes depressing for people who have spent so long grinding away on not just TRs but all their toons, but the near complete lack of acknowledgement for the multitude of people making reasonable suggestions indicates a severe disconnect between development team and their player base. These number crunchers, content creators and highly active players appear to be doing all the testing themselves. The numbers are speaking for themselves. While the "best build" hasn't been solved, the current best builds are clearly under performing massively compared to their live counterparts. Add to this the inability to even trust testing due to mechanics not being as advertised or, in the case of of basic components like combat advantage, broken completely.
In short, I'd expect high player attrition if things go live as they are.
3
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
In the future... create a poll with possible options and let us vote on them.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
12 days later there has been exactly one response from the team responsible for mitigating the mess that this is.
Not only are the changes depressing for people who have spent so long grinding away on not just TRs but all their toons, but the near complete lack of acknowledgement for the multitude of people making reasonable suggestions indicates a severe disconnect between development team and their player base. These number crunchers, content creators and highly active players appear to be doing all the testing themselves. The numbers are speaking for themselves. While the "best build" hasn't been solved, the current best builds are clearly under performing massively compared to their live counterparts. Add to this the inability to even trust testing due to mechanics not being as advertised or, in the case of of basic components like combat advantage, broken completely.
In short, I'd expect high player attrition if things go live as they are.
Yea, I keep waiting for some followup announcements and fixes but meh. I have already decided not to renew my vip which is just about up and I will wait to see how this mod goes live. If its still pretty much like it is now on preview im finding a new game.
Any comment Devs? Some very insightful alternative changes have been suggested. I've seen some changes to other classes based on player feedback, how about here?
Any comment Devs? Some very insightful alternative changes have been suggested. I've seen some changes to other classes based on player feedback, how about here?
Bueller? Bueller?
Dev's don't care about our opinions. They don't play their own game and the feedbacks given by experienced players are being ignored.
I have spent a few days to think about the changes coming to the game for the rouge. Now i don't like to change my playstyle, but it's going to happen. Taking away the power looping i saw coming for quite a while now but i fear now that all the trs dailys will not be worth poping, with lurkers assult punishing the rouges who play high ap builds by blocking ap, shocking execution bieng a pvp power, blood bath bieng too weak in current pve, now corage breaker only putting a small debuff on the target and wwob bieng flat out nerfed. Is there anyway you can balance the dailies, such as taking away the ap block from lirkers but make it to where it doesn't stack or something along those lines
Comments
Here is a list of Power change suggestions.
At will:
Sly Flourish - Idea: Simple and base At-Will
- i like the suggested changes: instead of breaking dmg on target after one combo, it now gets more
- suggestion, if used in stealth: one more stack of broken armor debuff (adds on the first combo when invisible, on top of the normal stack debuff (2 stacks at once, if not already 3)), stack disappear if you leave stealth)
Cloud of Steel: - Idea: Simple and base Ranged! At-Will.
- I think buffing dmg won't be enough to make this popular. I would suggest to make this a PvP skill, where you have the advantage by having range.
Of course enemys will try to close this range, so my suggestion:
-When enemys moving towards you, you have a 5% chance to stun them for 0.2 sec. If you attack them in their back, they get 5% more damage.
-in stealth: Chance to stun increased to 10%, damage from back increased to 10%
Duelist's Flurry:
- Usual combo is getting the bleed and then doing sly florish while bleed is running.
Of course getting the bleed faster is nice, so you can focus on sly florish, but Duelist's Flurry loses it's purpose, if the bleeddamge is too low.
- Suggestion: Duelist Flurry animation runs even faster (1 stack (damage of 5 stacks)), and only 50% of stealth loss (less if you have the Improved Cunning Sneak Feat).
- 2 stacks limited for each player, not on each enemy.
- in stealth, you can add 1 more stack. if you loose stealth and have made one stack with stealth, but now have 2 stacks, you can do the third while not being in stealth.
- losing stealth doesn't end the "stealth stack"
- -30% damage on bleed is already enough to consider taking Gloaming Cut or Disheartening Strike with you instead Duelist's Flurry.
Gloaming Cut:
- the main problem with this is the charge time. It is an execution skill, so you want to do it last.
The problem with a long charge time is, that you can't estimate (for example with lots of DoT or many friends attacking) when the best time is to use this skill.
Reducing charge time is good, but i would suggest to reduce the charge time to 0, and increase the cooldown after that skill to 3 seconds.
- The longer you don't use this skill, up to 15 sec, the more damage is charged up to 300%.
- i would move stealth gain on kill to the feat Sneaky Stabber.
- Stealth gain for 8 sec on use is good. If used in stealth, you get 5% more stealth regeneration. It looses sightly more stealth.
Disheartening Strike:
- Suggested change are all good, in combination with the buffed feat Distracting Knife
- in stealth it could give sightly better improvements. It looses sightly more stealth.
Passivs/Class Feature:
First Strike: Would change it to 20 sec cooldown, while being stealthed decrease cooldown by 50%, if going out of combat -> reset cooldown.
Tenacious Concealment: Could become less useful with changes to stealth. Maybe sightly buff it or add a small chance that while you are not in stealth, you have a small chance that powers are considered as stealth.
MI:
Infiltrator's Action: should add: every enemy hit by a daily is sightly more vulnerable to cc.
Advantageous Position: could be combined with other power which give you combat advantage into: If in 20' range there is no enemy without combat advantage for you or you had global combat advantage before, the resistance is doubled.
WK:
Razor Action: good, would add the featpart Razor Action now deals an additional 10/20/30/40/50% of its damage as a brief Damage Over Time effect, which trigger when you were invisible in the last 5 sec before or something like that
Dailys:
Bloodbath: can't really say if it needs a nerf, but i guess it is ok, it is a pvp skill and tr is buffed in pvp.
Whirlwind of Blades: changes are ok, if there are compensation for the missing damage, like my suggested T5 feats.
Courage Breaker: changes are ok, same as above
Shocking Execution: This skill is an execution, but you can use it twice. Ok there is nothing wrong with that, if the first execution misses, you have a second try.
But the feat which buffs it, is in executioner, which uses a DoT execution. And two executions are usually bad.
The feat which buffes Shocking Execution is a T2 treat, so reachable even if you take Scoundrel and want to kill other player with it. (or you want to play executener and look sometimes inside an arena)
And if you use it on monster, it deals alot of damage, so for monster it should be changed into a dmg skill.
Suggestion: If Shocking Execution is used against player, let it how it is. If Shocking Execution is used against monster, you only lose the % of the remaining health of the target monster.
Every further use will add -10% of Actionpoints used for 10 sec. Which mean, if you target a boss who has 20% HP left the 3rd time the last 10 sec, you have 50% Action point loss.
Encounter
Deft Strike:
- add Target has a debuff for 5 sec, all attacks from you to this target count as if it would attack out of his back.
Bait and Switch: Because Executioner won't use smoke bomb anymore, he will probably use this skill more. For that make it a little Executioner friendly:
- 15 sec cooldown, stays active 4 sec,
- 20% of tr health
- if used in stealth, decoy will explode after 3 sec, or if it is destroyed, if not in stealth, decoy will explode if destroyed.
Blitz: I like the suggested new stealth passiv, but i would not increase the cooldown of this skill.
Path of the Blade: Will not be used after buffing Blade Flurry.
- add, if path of blade is still running and you enter stealth, path of blade deals double damage while you are in stealth. (doesn't add Shadow of Demise every tick, only on first)
Impact Shot: changes are good, would add for the next 4 seconds, your at-will power Cloud of Steel dmg is buffed by 10% for this target
I actually like 95% of the changes, because they add more viable playstyles, but i think the main problem is, that the playstyles of the Paragonpaths and Feat paths are not well characterized.
Most people dislike the suggested changes, not because they remove the damage from TR but remove the damage from all skills which are currently only aviable and oversee that that update would allow a lot more aviable playstyles.
In the early game state (lvl 1-70) it wouldn't even be noticed and the player could play with this class a lot more enjoyable.
If you would change the damage from Duelist's Flurry, Smoke Bomb, Whirlwind of Blades and Courage Breaker back, everyone would be quite, but that doesn't mean that it is better.
But it is true, that the other playstyles can't compensate the high damage which you could create with Whirlwind of Blades, so i suggest to rechange Tier5 feats to heavy damage buff feats. so that in lategame the tr doesn't have to be buried.
Here is a suggestion how you can define the paths better:
First i want to say that i like the suggested basic stealth change. All my suggestions are building up on the already suggested changes from the first post in this thread.
I don't repeat changes from the first post and don't list skills/feats i don't change
Paragon paths:
Masterinfiltrator (MI) - Good combination with Scoundrel and Saboteur
Passiv: get Advantageous Position
Whisperknife (WK) - Good combination with Executioner and Saboteur
Passiv: get Invisible Infiltrator (rename, suggestion Silent Disciple)
Daily: Change -> Lurker's Assault
Hateful Knives on place of Lurker's Assault
Feats
Saboteur (PvP and PvE focus)
Idea - Instant high damage - in combination with keeping stealth.
T6 One with the Shadows - Idea: you don't loose stealth, your first encounter power deals more damage
- Add passiv- If out of combat activated stealth decrease only 40% as fast as in combat. If you had 6 sec stealth, you have 15 sec stealth (or with Improved Cunning Sneak even more)
- The first encounterpower triggering "One with the shadows" deal 30% more damage.
- (If stealthed the cooldown from 15 sec is reduced 30% faster, damage buff lasts only 10 sec, must be tested)
T5 Ambusher's Haste (new name: Ambusher's patience) - Idea: Main damage amplifying feat: The longer you are invisible, the more dangerous you are.
- Every second being in stealth increase your damage output by 10% for 15 seconds.
- Stacks up to 15 times.
- If you reenter stealth you can get up to 5 extra stacks which can go over the limit of 15 times and also stay 15 seconds.
T5 Shadowy Opportunity - Idea: more damage
- exchange with Shadowborn from Executioner path.
T4 Return to Shadows - Idea: Faster stealth regain.
- instead instantly refilling: For the next 3 seconds stealth refills 7,14,21,28,35% faster. Can trigger if stealthed, can only trigger if not active.
T4 Gutterborn's Touch - Idea more damage when attacking from behind.
- When attacking an enemy from behind, increase your Armor Penetration and Damage Dealt by 2/4/6/8/10%
- I wouldn't combine it with combat advantage.
T2 Knife's Edge - wrong path, move to Executioner
T2 Instead add Twisted Grin in this path with suggested changes.
T2 Sneaky Stabber (MI) - Idea: Faster stealth regain.
- if target dies with or in the next second after using Gloaming Cut on him, instantly regain 20% of stealth
T2 Distracting Knife (WK)
- Move to Executioner path, get Seething Knives
- Seething Knives: remove, instead buff "Lurkers Assault" (Name: Lunatic night): lurkers assault can build up Actionpoints while active.
- Change Razor Action buff to Class Feature itself
T1 Flashing Blades
- Your At-Will powers deal 2/4/6/8/10% more damage when your Stealth is active.
- If the stealth meter isn't full, gain 2,4,6,8,10% movement speed and stamina resturation for 5 sec after using an at-will. can only be active once. If entering stealth, remove this buff.
T1 Shady Preparations - wrong path, move to Executioner.
- move Aerial Cut here
Scoundrel Feats (PvP focus)
Idea: You are more tanky trough deflect, enemys are more weaker with crowd control, this path should focus on combat advantage, stealth is good (more stealth, more combat advantage) but not mandatory.
T6 Skullcracker - Idea: more cc on enemys, more damage for you.
- suggestions are good
- add: every 0.5 sec if an enemy is controlled (for real, not through the skullcracker passiv mark), he is damaged 2% of his max HP as piercing damage. No interaction with other damage modificators. (lowered for bosses)
T5 Low Blows - Idea more damage
- Would add a stacking buff: every time you cc an enemy, your combat advantage damage increases by 10% (so they feel like an second crit)
- stacks up to 15 times, for 15 sec, similar like T5 Ambusher's patience.
- keep bonus damage of old feat against controlled targets
T3 Back Alley Tactics
- change bonus damage to - your deflection stats,chances and movementspeed increase your combat advantage stat by X%
T2 Seething Knives (WK)
- move to Saboteur path, get Determined Pursuit
T1 Bloody Brawler
- maybe needs higher percentage
Executioner Feats (PvE focus)
Idea: Lot of damage (against bosses), Building up damage, crit, lots of recovery and encounter use, low stealth
T6 Shadow of Demise - Idea: Heavy free damage, but only after a time, making it not that good in PvP (instant dmg > DoT)
Because you won't go that often in stealth, after stealth regeneration is increased to 12.5 sec, it is a heavy nerf to this dominating feat
In my opinion it nerfes the wrong way.
Better do it towards a heavy boss killing Feat
- It is active for 8 seconds (and can be activated after 8 sec again trough stealth) - small foes are dead after that time anyway
- If the enemy heals himself (trough heal or lifesteal, not regeneration) the piercing damage is reduced by the value of 50% of the heal.
T5 Shadowborn - move to Saboteur path
T5 Losing controll (new) - Idea: after removing all the bonus damage, why not add a little bit here with a pass characterizing playstyle
- Everytime you use an encounter/daily power (while being in combat), your power stat increases
- using an encounter power increase power by 8%, stacks endless, stack duration 15 sec.
T5 Exposed Weakness - moving to saboteur path is good
T5 Blood Soaked Blades - would move it to T4
T5 Experienced Killer (new) - A crit chance over 100% increases the crit damage instead
T4 Twisted Grin - When an enemy dies, you get a buff
- In my opinion not that good, to add Lifesteal, doesn't fit to this path, in fact it would be a lot better in Saboteur, also with at-wills.
You stay stealthed until someone dies, and then you do your moves.
-Suggetion, move Blood Soaked Blades to here
T2 Devastating Shroud (MI)
- skill changed (look Powers)
- If used against Monster -> increases your Critical Chance and Critical Severity for 6 sec.
- if used against Player -> Increase combat advantage stats for this skill only.
T2 Determined Pursuit (WK)
- move to Scoundrel, get Distracting Knife (rename into something else)
T2 Vicious Pursuit
- exchange with Knife's Edge
- Add to Knife's Edge, reduce cooldown by 0.2,0.4,0.6,0.8,1 sec or 3,6,9,12,15%, whatever is better for each encounter.
T1 Arterial Cut
- move Shady Preparations here
- Rename Shady Preparations into "Warming up", remove stealth out of it.
- You get +1,2,3,4,5% more recovery.
Heroic feats:
T2 - Cunning Ambusher (5x) - better would be, 3,3.5,4,5,6% more damage for 2,3,4,5,6 sec
T2 - Swift Footwork (3x) - better would be 5,10,15% more Stamina regeneration
T3 - Endless Assault (5x) - 2,4,6,8,10% more encounter damage
T3 - Twilight Adept (3x) - 4,8,12% stealth regeneration for 5 sec after dodge roll, not stackable
T4 - Disciple of Strength (5x) - Increase the amount of bonus damage Strength gives you by 2,3,4,5,6%.
T4 - Improved Cunning Sneak (3x) - Sneak last 8,16,25% longer
Sabotuer tree return to shadows feat:
The return to shadows feat states that it refills 25% of your stealth meter when you hit a target with an encounter power from behind. However, it is only granting the 25% stealth on live. On preview, the stealth gain for this feat doesn't work at all. I tested this on players and dummies alike on both servers.
I haven't done a test on the damage bonus for this feat yet so unsure if it is also broken.
2 Scoundrel scullcracker feat bugs:
Duelist's flurry's bleeds are procing scullcracker. I tested this by procing scullcracker with 1 DF and then doing 2 more DFs before I stopped attacking altogether. Several seconds after stopping my attacks, the bleeds were the only thing still going but scullcracker proced again. This technically may not be a bug since the tooltip simply states that at wills and encounters proc this capstone. Technically DOTs are part of this attack but this capstone should be updated to no longer proc from DOTs period.
Occasionally scullcracker's debuff bar icon says X2, I have not quite figured out what is causing it to do that. I also do not know yet whether or not this is only a bug with the icon or if the actual damage of this capstone is also being doubled.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
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Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
Dear TRs - I know that right now most of you bleeding from most of your..... whatever.
But I ask you politely to stop. Its not worth your time and effort. Not worth you arguing or going personal... really.
I mean - when was the last time devs actually listened to any of our proposals or objections?
I said that many times before and I am afraid I am gonna say many more:
Devs do not communicate with us - they simply make announcements.
It doesn't look like - hey players we got such and such ideas - what you think? No.
It more like - we gona do that...... Period.
It happened so many times before that I stopped even commenting. Last time for me was bonding nerf.
We gave them tons of feedback, not flaming or hate but real feedback - with proves how many things working. I even believe that there are some players here who have more knowledge about game mechanics that devs themselves. But what effect that made? Nothing, null, zero, nada, zipo.
And to prove I am correct - found grit to read firts 6 pages of thread. After those I just scrolled to check - there was NO answer from a thread starting devs. Just on page 9 I found this:
First they drop A-bomb and few posts later their bring some minor tweaks to wash tears. Nice. At least those news should be given by @balanced#2849 not @noworries#8859
But in general any moment you start saying that what devs planed is "not smart" or flaming, and you actually closing a thread.
Btw - its cofortable excuse dont you think? - "Our players reacted with hate and anger to our proposal - lets ignore them for that, and continue our work. (Reading a forum in secrecy any way, to find out from smart players how this game really work :d )
Quite contrairly - on proffesion rework devs are present - cos that change is in general welcomed and expected, and looks good on test server.
I am very sorry for you guys. I seen joy in my fellow TRs for last few months when their so much liked toons finally (after years) found their place in end game society. Now its taken away form them again.
So dont waste your time, knowledge and passion here - as from the look of this thread - its lost cause already.
And here is the idea... Stackable combat advantage (CA), that when in a party extends to the party as well. All combat advantage damage bonuses stack. And many of the TR's abilities should apply CA as well, being that the idea is a fundamental concept of the class, or at least it logically should be. Being that there are few things equipment-wise that grant a bonus to CA, this should be a major feature of the TR, I would think. This would be a prime way to increase dps and help the whole party, when a TR is in a party. For endgame stuff like dungeons and the like, people would be glad to have a TR in the party as the stackable CA would help everybody. In solo play, this stackable bonus would be a big help to, even against mobs.
Now of course there are ways to limit this, to prevent CA looping or things like that. I have few ideas here as well, these can be useful for PVP limits as well. Now all of these ideas wouldn't have to be used, but the devs can pick and choose the best balance as appropriate (especially in terms of PVE vs PVP).
One way to limit this from getting out of hand is to make the stack additive not multiplicative. Another way is that it could be stackable to a point, put a cap on the stack, say 100% for example. (Could be higher or lower, that's just an easy figure off the top of my head.) Another way could be that only TR CA bonuses stack, not CA from other classes. In a party, perhaps the CA from the TR overrides CA from other classes/sources, or those can still apply, but not to the party, the other classes add their CA only to themselves. If there is more than one TR in a group, either the cap could be higher, or there would be an additional bonus on top of that, or maybe one of those diminishing returns bonuses on top of the stack, say each additional TR in the party increases the cap to half the the previous cap. So, using the above example, the cap would be 150%, for two TR's in a party, and 175% for three. This way it is not pointless to have more than one TR in a group, as all party members benefit from the additional bonus, but that the bonus isn't out of control either.
In summation, I think this kind of idea would be a big help to the class and make people glad to have a TR on board for endgame parties/events. I think this would make it fun for everyone, which is what we want, is it not? There's my idea, I hope it helps!
If I could take a bit of space here to try to break down these problems people have been talking about into something of a set of main issues as I see them...
TR's damage was dependent on potentially broken Power buffing interactions which, due to gear creep, would have only continued to get worse. TR players by and large probably understand why these interactions needed to be fixed, but this currently leaves us in much the same situation you said you wanted to avoid with CW.
Now, I'm going to assume you know how the top-end TR builds work through Arificer's Pursuasion's interaction with TR power self-buffing and understand how that benefits them.
Lurker's Assault is not favored as much by the top end TR because it specifically blocks AP generation other than the DC Sigil and similar buffs, thus invalidating the entire core loop of the currently relevant TR builds.
Personally I feel this all leads back to a small set of core problems with TR's design. In my opinion these may be a lack of base damage or a lack of self buffs, or a problem with TR not being able to sustain the most important self-buffs they have. Long cooldowns could be potentially related as well, but somewhat secondary.
I think when you look at the Executioner tree and the class features TR normally use (Invisible Infiltrator and Infiltrator's Action), to me is seems that TR has a problem of short windows in which they are benefiting from their buffs. Most of these important buffs are attached to the use of Daily powers.
My personal suggestion for Lurker's Assault specifically would be to just give it a cooldown timer of about 30 to 40 seconds and permit the user to gain AP normally during its buff.
Although Preview server has been updated and combat advantage works properly,
1) Our feat "Return to the Shadows" still does not apply 25% more damage on encounters from behind target and does not refill 25% of stealth meter. (on live 25% refill to stealth meter is working)
2) I cannot replicate the bug but sometimes you can endlessly use Blade Flurry without it going on cooldown
Blade flurry cooldown wont trigger even after spamming this power two minutes in row. Please DEVS... if you really have that passion for nerfing us to the ground, at least do it correctly.
> please leave shadow of demise 75% dont change it . not to menssion I wanna stay wilth 10sec steath cooldown not 12.5 . you taking 50% demage away .
> I am disapointed
> I will have to leave if they do this to TR
It's better to stay and be vocal than to leave and be silent.
That's why criminals get away with stuff.. people dont talk about it.
You have been provided by alternate suggestions to balance and provide a breath of fresh air to TRs by some of the best TRs in this game. It would be great if you guys could update us on what you've thought and plan to do NOW for mod 15.
Also, is it planned to better compensate the changes to Daily powers before new mod hits Live?
We know that you’ve been asking for it for a while now, but the Trickster Rogue update is finally here! Many At-will, encounter, class feature, and daily powers have been tweaked and updated to be more worthwhile. All three Feat trees have had work done to them to make them more unique and competitive. And, Stealth and Stealth Regeneration have had a handful of adjustments to be less oppressive against other players but more consistent for the Trickster Rogue.
So guys, is this what "you’ve been asking for it for a while now"?
I mean they even noted that they nuked nerf for freak'n PVP! F%$# PVP!
Changes to Daily powers affect more things than just Daily powers. It affects our uptime and stack numbers for Invisible Infiltrator and Infiltrators action, it affects our cooldowns, it affects stealth refill which affects SoD uptime.
The change to Daily powers triggered more nerfs indirectly and we still have to take a nerf to our damage from Smoke Bomb+Aura of Courage fix.
Again, changes are fine but compensation needs to be a lot better when it comes to Daily powers rework with AoC bomb fix in mind. The only complaint regarding PvP that i saw was the nerf to run speed, wont go into that since im not PvPer.
Not only are the changes depressing for people who have spent so long grinding away on not just TRs but all their toons, but the near complete lack of acknowledgement for the multitude of people making reasonable suggestions indicates a severe disconnect between development team and their player base. These number crunchers, content creators and highly active players appear to be doing all the testing themselves. The numbers are speaking for themselves. While the "best build" hasn't been solved, the current best builds are clearly under performing massively compared to their live counterparts. Add to this the inability to even trust testing due to mechanics not being as advertised or, in the case of of basic components like combat advantage, broken completely.
In short, I'd expect high player attrition if things go live as they are.
Bueller? Bueller?
They don't play their own game and the feedbacks given by experienced players are being ignored.
R.I.P TR.
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