Asking that players find a new guild if they won't do FBI is a big ask. In one of my last solo queue runs, there was a player on the team for whom this was his first time in the dungeon, and he said that his guild would just refuse to do FBI. And it is a very understandable position. There are no endgame rewards in FBI, and in the time that a typical team would take to finish FBI, that same team could do multiple other dungeons or activities that would net as much, or even more, rewards for RAD/salvage. A lot of people at the time when FBI dropped, thought it was a huge mistake, that the time/reward ratio wasn't worth it, and that was when it was the endgame dungeon! It is even more irrelevant now.
(Incidentally, this was the team that took about 2.5 hours to finish FBI. It was one of the worse experiences in that dungeon.)
How is that understandable? If a guild wont at least and try to take a person for their first run then there are many other guilds that will. What rewards have to do with this? Your run with your guild, or help new players in your guilds only if the rewards are suitable ??
I really don't care to keep responding to the OP. Anyone can go back and see who said what and who starts flinging insults. I do want to say that for all his talk about Ivory Towers and how we are ignorant of how hard the solo queuer's lives are, I want to say this. Before Mod 14 made the RAD pointless, I did REQ (including FBI and MSP) on all 11 of my characters, 2 or 3 times a week. At that time,most of them were 12 to 13k with cheap artifacts and pets. 22 to 33 REQ a week, even with the Whisperknife and the MoF Thaum, hardly endgame preferred builds.
Whatever the dungeon was, I tried to beat it with the party I was given. I completed both FBI and MSP, solo queue, in acceptable times with these charscters. With the exception of when the turtle bugged, none of these runs failed except for when people didn't even try.
I had a run which went well at first, clearing the first few packs until some died and rage quit, starting a chain reaction that left me in an empty instant.
A similar run ended at the plateau with the tent. After the first try, I asked the CW to Entangling Force the orc runner. The response was that, "control died on mod 6" and then we waited out the remaining 15 minutes before we could vote to abandon.
Note that in both cases, the group was clearly capable of clearing the giant packs, but just decided quitting would be easier.
I still solo queue, just not random queue. Two weeks ago, I queued for FBI on my HR. It took longer for the queue pop than people stayed in the dungeon before sign posting out, disconnecting, AFKing at the campfire.
So let me make this clear. I solo queue and I don't want the content made easier so that people like that get rewarded.
Best in show still has to go to the OP tank on MSP that faced his character to the wall and spammed the party chat with, 'kik me.'
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
FBI does not need a nerf, it acts as a gateway to harder content and, even if it is a harsh awakening to reality, it may make unprepared players evaluate their character and figure out what they need to improve. The fact of the matter is, at some point, some piece of content needs to be like a splash of cold water to the face and make you realize that you need to put some thought into the character you are building and it needs to be somewhere before Castle Ravenloft.
I will admit, I have not pugged FBI in a long while, mainly because when I do pug now, it is normally CR. I have pugged somewhere over 30 CRs now and to date, my worst pug CR was still better then my worst alliance CR (although it was close to as bad) and my best pug CR was under 25 minutes, which put it in competition with decent premade runs.
All this being said, when a random queue goes badly, it is normally due to a lack of communication. The ones that go well, you give advice to people, ask them to switch power x with power y and they comply. You can even have some friendly party banter while you are running. The ones that take longer, players outright ignore you, or sit in their own corner of denial and ask to be removed from the dungeon. This is a player issue, not a content issue.
As i've said, i rarely run an dungeon outside "premade" guild/members from the alliance/or poeple from the friendlist from guild or alliancemembers. But what i did often in the past, was random skirmishes, for testing stuff or just for fun. The testing stuff was smth for me "if it works with randoms, it should even work better running with guildmates".
But i have noticed maybe since 1 1/2 year....many people (not all for sure) are for me too fast in giving up, or even decline to try it, or are in the "carry me please" mode.
Few examples?
Throne of the Dwarven Gods...5 people in, and 3 seconds later the first left the instance, bc it is ToDG. Can't count how often the Hulk Phase was screwed, bc most poeple where dps'ing them.
Or even the dps Variant, protecting the two Healers?, the Tank is constantly standing besides them and leading the adds to them, instead of intercepting them in the Forefield and let the Golems simply go.
Am i right or not?
Prophecy of Madness, same can't count how often people abandonded the instance, instead of simply trying it.
Am i right or not?
Next example, for me the best:
Illusionist Gambit, common sense: "Bronze pls...Bronze pls...BROOOOOOOONNNNZEEEEEEEE!!!!!
They don't even try it, bc it so hard to take patience, when the reflect damage phase started. (and i have to admit, my beloved Guildleader and me had alot of fun, when she tried to farm +4 rings for her Companion and we bombed the vote for Gold^^).
Am i right or not? (besides of trolling people in Gambit, ok)
So this is what i am (personally) thinking about alot of people today, not willing to try things out, but to hope for been carried through everything...
When i start playing NW, the first things i've learned was :
§1 Protect the Cleric at any cost.
§2 There is no "I" in Team
But nowadays...
It is so often:
"Oh i don't like that, screw the rest i am out..."
If you had made an Topic, instead of an nerfing request, like:
"Dear devs pls overthink the random q"
And with some suggestion, from you and maybe others, how the q could be maybe made better. Be it T1, 1.5, T2, T2.5 and T3. I (and maybe others here, critizising you), would then support you.
My suggestion would maybe be:
Let Fbi as it is, but the devs should put in a big, fat Warning written in red, with:
"Beware Adventurer you are entering an stepping stone in your journey, entering at your own risk. Are you feeling you are brave enough? Nice day for dying, isn't it...huha"
FBI is the first dungeon that has all unbound items drop from it if I'm not mistaken, if u want to aim for the daily salvage cap u shouldn't bother with it, now if u want to get some extra u need to work more for it don't u think? I've pugged FBI many times where there a few new players in my party and we still finished, i don't see a problem with it since its the dungeon where it introduces better rewards compared the others where everything is bound etc, its to expect a increase in difficulty. But think about it, many mods ago, people were doing said dungeon without a problem, now, after u gotten way and i do mean WAY better gear and u still cant finish it i honestly don't think u should then, u should look at ur toon, think of what u can improve, get out there, make friends that u can run with and improve together, this is the main reason why people say get a guild, not just to get boons but to get to meet new people that can help u improve.
For some learning and improving is a worthwhile pursuit, gratification in completing a challenge.
Not even you are that naive. I know you were around back in the Mod 0/1 days when all of the dungeons had significant exploits. Did most players refuse to use those exploits in order to achieve the "gratification in completing a challenge"? No. Instead the prevailing attitude was "use the exploit so that we can get to the loot faster". That is WHY the Legit channel was founded in the first place, to try to counteract this tendency until the devs finally fixed the exploits. And before you say "oh that was so long ago", I was just in a CR run a little while ago where the tank wanted to use an exploit because "it will be faster". That is when I left.
So yes the incentives have predominantly been about the rewards to time/effort ratio. Not really about the challenge itself.
If you all REALLY want players to improve so that they don't struggle so badly in places like FBI, you have to incentivize them to do so. Lecturing them won't do it. Treating them like dirt won't do it.
The fact of the matter is, at some point, some piece of content needs to be like a splash of cold water to the face and make you realize that you need to put some thought into the character you are building and it needs to be somewhere before Castle Ravenloft.
I agree with you. And that dungeon should be TONG, not FBI.
Think about it from the point of view of a player who is starting to reach endgame. If I'm going to struggle and suffer in a challenging dungeon for an hour or more, why would I want to do so in one that won't offer anything that is relevant for endgame progression even if I should finish? At least TONG offers a *chance* at a UE.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
For some learning and improving is a worthwhile pursuit, gratification in completing a challenge.
Not even you are that naive. I know you were around back in the Mod 0/1 days when all of the dungeons had significant exploits. Did most players refuse to use those exploits in order to achieve the "gratification in completing a challenge"? No. Instead the prevailing attitude was "use the exploit so that we can get to the loot faster". That is WHY the Legit channel was founded in the first place, to try to counteract this tendency until the devs finally fixed the exploits. And before you say "oh that was so long ago", I was just in a CR run a little while ago where the tank wanted to use an exploit because "it will be faster". That is when I left.
So yes the incentives have predominantly been about the rewards to time/effort ratio. Not really about the challenge itself.
If you all REALLY want players to improve so that they don't struggle so badly in places like FBI, you have to incentivize them to do so. Lecturing them won't do it. Treating them like dirt won't do it.
1. How is that you always skip most of the posts.
2. This was the reason /legit was formed, and that was around the last time I have ever used public queued for my own progress. So what is your point? legit was the largest and most active channel at the time, its explosive growth and sharp decline came too, but until then it was the reason people played and didn't quit.
So you prove me right be bringing the example of huge group of people that actually prove my point? I was a mod in legit, so were most of my guild founding members (admins/mods). BTW legit was not the only one, some of the older guilds existed back then like Tyr.
3. Why my friends list shrunk at mod5? When everything became so stupid easy. I still may have demo recordings of solong everything..
4. Do not assume that your reasons are applicable to everyone else. Ofc everyone will want a worthy loot, shiny things are always nice, but why you think people ask for more end-game content and not some skirmish? If you only count things in terms of farm, good for you, this is not why I play, nor many others who I know.
You keep and keep assuming, generalizing, insulting.
"Not even you are that naive"
Perhaps it's time to grasp that there are people with different priorities and values than you? Maybe finally take the time and read for once, what I've explained and repeated, for example that I don't soloQ not because I'm in any way afraid to do 1 hour dungeons...Where you assume 15 minute runs, and other nonsense. But because many people play the game not for it's great content (there isn't one really) but because of the people they play with. What is the point endless grind of the same over and over ? Imaginary currency? What's the point? This is the a means to an end The objective is to have friends, teamwork, and overcome some challenge, or just run together. If not that, then there are better single players games, with better graphics, better story, less bugs, various settings, etc..
You mock and insult 'elitists' etc, but why at the end people min-max? Look for better builds? For group synergy? If it's not a challenge on it's own. To solo, to be fast, to one phase. People do not get better rewards if they spent hours on a single boss repeating it trying to one phase it. They will get only one reward, while they could have run the same thing dozen of times.. so where is the AD/time there?
Stop with narrow mindness.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
6. Who lecturing and berating new players? New players that were with me got a full explanation of the dungeon and the mechanics. Actually I'm sure that most here took more new players to dungeon and helped them, guided and wiped as many times as needed than you.
lecturing new players will suddenly make them want to spend 1-2 hours struggling in a dungeon. Sorry, but no.
And who is lecturing new players? You are not a new player, you should have known better than first ask for help with your OP and not to ask for a nerf for a dungeon because you think you are struggling. And other people actually running with new players to help them, or doing guides, or videos or what not, to help out. People provide more means than were ever available for new players to succeed, there is minimal responsibility to use it
If you all REALLY want players to improve so that they don't struggle so badly in places like FBI, you have to incentivize them to do so.
Or I can create a linear progress and adjust it all, so CN orcus is like it was and needed tanking. I don't understand how hoard is it to grasp that people who are more prepared to something, will have better chance to complete it and in a smoother and faster way. The more earlier you start the easier it comes. It is easier to understand how to match a circle to a circle hole, than how to disassemble and assemble a vehicle.
Why there should be a gap? Why people should just queue into something and have no idea of how to handle it. How people reach 'adulthood' without some basic skills? In most modern societies people get prepared as they grow, you know, basic math skills, a birds and the bees talk, etc..
You do not throw people into university after kindergarten and expect success.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited September 2018
BTW setting up a proper challenge and a learning curve is not a gaming issue, it is something much basic in humans, and is researched quite in depth in Education. One of the most basic things when building a lecture / assignment or anything, is to have several types of questions of verity of difficulty. Students loose interest quickly if the questions are too easy, or too hard. There is a sweet spot for average student in terms of time it takes to find a solution, or to progress.
This is why 'online' or computer based assignments can be designed to maximize students interest and learning time, by keeping the success rate positive and constant, but increasing or lowering the difficulty as a student progresses or stumbles.
Honestly, you kind of are... Sorry, but that is what it feels like. People here are telling you that they aren't having a problem doing FBI in solo queue and you are basically discarding it by trying to argue they are "getting lucky", or something along those lines.
And yes I think a large number of people around these forums are ivory tower elitists who truly don't give a damn about anyone outside their little circle of friends, and certainly don't give a damn for those filthy pugs who have the gall to use the solo queue system. Well, pug lives matter too.
2. This was the reason /legit was formed, and that was around the last time I have ever used public queued for my own progress. So what is your point? legit was the largest and most active channel at the time, its explosive growth and sharp decline came too, but until then it was the reason people played and didn't quit.
So you prove me right be bringing the example of huge group of people that actually prove my point? I was a mod in legit, so were most of my guild founding members (admins/mods). BTW legit was not the only one, some of the older guilds existed back then like Tyr.
If most people were truly motivated by completing a challenge for the challenge's sake, and not just motivated by the rewards/time ratio, then there would not have been a need for the Legit channel in the first place.
4. Do not assume that your reasons are applicable to everyone else. Ofc everyone will want a worthy loot, shiny things are always nice, but why you think people ask for more end-game content and not some skirmish? If you only count things in terms of farm, good for you, this is not why I play, nor many others who I know.
The people whom you know do not speak for the opinions of everyone in the entire game. Some people would rather see the devs fix bugs instead of introducing yet another buggy dungeon. Some people would rather see more attention paid to PVP, or the Foundry, or - yes - more content accessible to ALL levels of players, not just the endgame crowd. Do you realize this? I know you are good friends with Sharp, and Amri, and lots of other very high end and respected players. But they don't speak for the entire game, any more than I or anyone else does. Do you realize that?
You keep and keep assuming, generalizing, insulting.
"Not even you are that naive"
Perhaps it's time to grasp that there are people with different priorities and values than you?
I think this is a lesson we could both stand to learn. I know you've been around the game a long time, I can tell you feel heavily invested in the game. But it is nonetheless just one perspective among many. Just like mine is just one perspective among many. I don't claim to know what is best for the entire game, or for every player. I am offering my opinion on fixing just one dungeon. And quite honestly it is a very mild suggestion for a fix - get rid of *a couple of* giants, and reduce Drufi's hit points *a little bit*. I've said nothing about adjusting any of the core mechanics of the dungeon at all. Not even the most frustrating one, Drufi's ice. And yet lots of people are freaking out like I've suggested making FBI just as easy as Cloak Tower or something.
Maybe finally take the time and read for once, what I've explained and repeated, for example that I don't soloQ not because I'm in any way afraid to do 1 hour dungeons...Where you assume 15 minute runs, and other nonsense.
I never suggested you were "afraid" to do any dungeon.
But because many people play the game not for it's great content (there isn't one really) but because of the people they play with. What is the point endless grind of the same over and over ? Imaginary currency? What's the point? This is the a means to an end The objective is to have friends, teamwork, and overcome some challenge, or just run together. If not that, then there are better single players games, with better graphics, better story, less bugs, various settings, etc..
That is your objective, and I accept that. It is not really my objective, at least in the same sense that I think you are intending it, and it's not the objective of plenty of people that I have met in this game. For a lot of people that I have encountered, this game is a form of escapism. Their real life kinda sucks, and so this game is a way to escape from that suckitude. They may be broke in real life, but they can be rich in imaginary game money. They may be stuck in a job with a boss that they hate, but in the game, they can talk smack to a Demon Lord and get away with it. For these people, the game is less about hanging out with friends, and more about beating up on some orcs. And this game is as good as any other game for that purpose.
You mock and insult 'elitists' etc, but why at the end people min-max? Look for better builds? For group synergy? If it's not a challenge on it's own. To solo, to be fast, to one phase. People do not get better rewards if they spent hours on a single boss repeating it trying to one phase it. They will get only one reward, while they could have run the same thing dozen of times.. so where is the AD/time there?
I have long believed people broadly - not just in the game, but in real life too - are motivated by one or more of three things: power, money, or fame. Developing a stronger character is "power". Acquiring more AD/loot is "money". And having bragging rights for the first or fastest speed kill is "fame". Not all rewards are in the form of AD. But one (or more) of those three will be the reward.
I understand that many people here WANT newer players who struggle with FBI to be motivated by the desire to know how to play their character better - "power". But many are not, at least as much as you want them to be. Many are motivated more by the "money", wanting more AD/loot. I personally do not believe anything is wrong with that. It does take a LOT of AD to build up one's character. at least beyond the 14k mark or so. So my position is, instead of trying to change people's motivations to be something other than what they are, by scolding them (not you specifically scolding, just in general) that they should "get gud" or "learn to play", that we should instead be more accepting of people where they are at. Let FBI have a more reasonable AD/time ratio *for those who really need it* - to satisfy their motivation for "money" - while at the same time, keep the core mechanics intact, so that as a byproduct, they are by necessity motivated by developing more knowledge about their character, the "power".
If I were dev for a day, I would not nerf FBI to the ground. I would make minor adjustments - none to the core mechanics - so that the expected completion time for a random team would be in the 30-40 minute range, and not what it is currently, somewhere above 40 minutes. That's really all I'm asking. Not a huge nerf.
The problem here is not the dungeon difficulty. The problem here is the random queue system itself and the use of the AD rewards to "encourage" players to use it. Eliminating the random queue system would eliminate most of the perceived problems with FBI.
The people whom you know do not speak for the opinions of everyone in the entire game. Some people would rather see the devs fix bugs instead of introducing yet another buggy dungeon. Some people would rather see more attention paid to PVP, or the Foundry, or - yes - more content accessible to ALL levels of players, not just the endgame crowd. Do you realize this? I know you are good friends with Sharp, and Amri, and lots of other very high end and respected players. But they don't speak for the entire game, any more than I or anyone else does. Do you realize that?
But they don't speak for the entire game, any more than I or anyone else does. Do you realize that?
The question would be more correct if addressed to you. Do you realize that you don't speak for the entiere game? It really seems you don't. Reading you, you speak for everyone that's "not elitist nor endgame". You don't, you only express YOUR opinion.
And the fantastic thing about opinion, it's that people are allowed to have a different one than yours. And guess what? Lots of people here expressed their opinion, with (imho) way more valid arguments than yours. And, because you like very much twisting other's words and posts, I prefer say this now: People that wrote on this thread are not necessary Micky's or Sharp's friends, that you (wrongly) call "elitists". I know these players in-game for they are in my alliance, and I know a part of their work for the community, but I believe I never ran with them.
So that makes me (as an example, but so is the case for lots of respondants here), someone that just disagree with you, offering arguments that you just can't manage to respond to, because YOU think that YOUR opinion on the subject is the truth, and that FBI should be nerfed.
thefabricant said: The fact of the matter is, at some point, some piece of content needs to be like a splash of cold water to the face and make you realize that you need to put some thought into the character you are building and it needs to be somewhere before Castle Ravenloft.
I agree with you. And that dungeon should be TONG, not FBI.
You are doing the exact same thing that I was mentionning earlier on the thread. You want FBI nerfed, so a next dungeon will become the "gap" to endgame, TONG in your opinion. But then in a few months, you are going to open another thread stating "is it time to nerf TONG yet" because you can't pass it with a random queue, because, well, people are not prepared for the dungeon. And why aren't they prepared? BECAUSE YOU NERFED FBI.
The random queue system and its AD rewards certainly exacerbate these kind of issues (perceived or otherwise), but if there was no RQ system or AD rewards, FBI instances would probably only occur a handful of times each day across the whole server. Is that any better?
The same logic went into getting rid of AD rewards for PvP, after which it spiraled down the drain because none of the underlying issues were dealt with, and if anything became worse. Largely, the only people that were (are) left are a few of the highest achievers and a rotating assortment of lowbies that haven't realized they shouldn't bother yet.
So that makes me (as an example, but so is the case for lots of respondants here), someone that just disagree with you, offering arguments that you just can't manage to respond to, because YOU think that YOUR opinion on the subject is the truth, and that FBI should be nerfed.
I have responded substantively to every argument presented herein. I did not respond directly to your original post, but I did respond to your arguments.
On the contrary, plenty of people have not responded (at least in good faith) to many of the arguments that I have presented.
For example, one person suggested buffing CN back to where it was in Mod 8/9, to "better prepare players". If this is the plan, then why stop at CN? Why not buff all the dungeons to make them harder - you know, to toughen up those players? Where do you draw the line, and why?
Or, the idea that players broadly are naively motivated by overcoming a challenge for the challenge's sake. The entire history of this game says otherwise. Quite often, players are motivated BOTH by becoming a better player, AND by the AD/loot rewards at the end of the dungeon, and more often, it's the AD/loot that is the stronger motivator. So just insisting that people should do FBI in order to get better, will not change these underlying motivations.
You are doing the exact same thing that I was mentionning earlier on the thread. You want FBI nerfed, so a next dungeon will become the "gap" to endgame, TONG in your opinion. But then in a few months, you are going to open another thread stating "is it time to nerf TONG yet" because you can't pass it with a random queue, because, well, people are not prepared for the dungeon. And why aren't they prepared? BECAUSE YOU NERFED FBI.
If nothing changes, these same players for whom you allegedly are so concerned with helping to prepare for endgame content, they won't be ready for TONG anyway, because they will have completely avoided FBI since it's in their rational interest to do so. Why spend 1 hour in FBI when you can get the same RAD rewards in the same amount of time from 3-4 ETOS runs?
If random players are going to struggle and suffer in an endgame dungeon, then it should be one that offers actual endgame rewards. You can't get UEs from FBI, but you can from TONG. 3-4 ETOS runs likely won't cover the cost of 1 UE.
You see, my plan actually does help players get prepared for endgame dungeons, by altering the incentives in FBI so that BOTH getting the loot AND becoming a better player are on a more even playing field. As I've mentioned many times, I don't at all favor nerfing FBI to the ground so that it is not a challenge at all.
Believe it or not, people tend not to be motivated to get better by being scolded and lectured to, especially not in a game.
So what is your plan to help random teams get through FBI, so that they are ready for TONG and further endgame dungeons? Lecture them harder?
Post edited by chemjeff on
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
So that makes me (as an example, but so is the case for lots of respondants here), someone that just disagree with you, offering arguments that you just can't manage to respond to, because YOU think that YOUR opinion on the subject is the truth, and that FBI should be nerfed.
I did not respond directly to your original post, but I did respond to your arguments.
On the contrary, plenty of people have not responded (at least in good faith) to many of the arguments that I have presented.
For example, one person suggested buffing CN back to where it was in Mod 8/9, to "better prepare players". If this is the plan, then why stop at CN? Why not buff all the dungeons to make them harder - you know, to toughen up those players? Where do you draw the line, and why?
Do you understand the concept of "linear" ? Or why your suggestion is worse?
Or, the idea that players broadly are naively motivated by overcoming a challenge for the challenge's sake. The entire history of this game says otherwise. Quite often, players are motivated BOTH by becoming a better player, AND by the AD/loot rewards at the end of the dungeon, and more often, it's the AD/loot that is the stronger motivator. So just insisting that people should do FBI in order to get better, will not change these underlying motivations.
No one suggested that it is the only motivator, on the contrary, I've mentioned loot. Creating an impassible gap between FBI and further progress will not help anyone.
You are doing the exact same thing that I was mentionning earlier on the thread. You want FBI nerfed, so a next dungeon will become the "gap" to endgame, TONG in your opinion. But then in a few months, you are going to open another thread stating "is it time to nerf TONG yet" because you can't pass it with a random queue, because, well, people are not prepared for the dungeon. And why aren't they prepared? BECAUSE YOU NERFED FBI.
If nothing changes, these same players for whom you allegedly are so concerned with helping to prepare for endgame content, they won't be ready for TONG anyway, because they will have completely avoided FBI since it's in their rational interest to do so. Why spend 1 hour in FBI when you can get the same RAD rewards in the same amount of time from 3-4 ETOS runs?
First, this is not correct. Second, I have replied to this multiple times, which you conveniently chose to ignore.
If random players are going to struggle and suffer in an endgame dungeon, then it should be one that offers actual endgame rewards. You can't get UEs from FBI, but you can from TONG. 3-4 ETOS runs likely won't cover the cost of 1 UE.
If speaking of AD/time, those UES, how much they add per run? How much time is needed to create a CN key? A Tomb key? And what is the average net gain per run?
So what is your plan to help random teams get through FBI, so that they are ready for TONG and further endgame dungeons? Lecture them harder?
And I've addressed this multiple time, and again you always ignore this, how convenient. People do more than your posts, they actually make groups in game, and show people the way. If it's private or publicQ. There are those that talk, and those that do.
Yet, I did saw someone scold a new player in-game, it was for his question about doing cradle. That someone made fun of his question, more or less telling the new player has no chance and should forget it.
So what is your plan to help random teams get through FBI, so that they are ready for TONG and further endgame dungeons? Lecture them harder?
My "plan" is quite simple: don't touch anything on FBI. Why so? Because he difficulty as a gap to endgame is fine, because the loot is fine. Again, FBI is now an old dungeon, the powercreep already makes it way easier for everyone to complete. The future powercreep will add even more facility, and so on. FBI is just a step to learn to play your class and as a team. In a not so distant future, FBI will be more forgiving more random teams, with the gear increase.
The problem doesn't reside in the dungeon or its difficulty, but on the players not willing to learn how to run an endgame dungeon. And please, don't tell me that this sentence is "elitist" or whatever. I know plenty of low IL people, that I helped through FBI, because they were willing to learn and understand. People that are not willing to learn should not advance past CN, because, endgame is more "demanding" than a simple walk-and-smash. It's not an elitist attitude, just a normal MMO's endgame. And, except CR, it's not like the mechanics are hard to understand, just a bit of practice and you'll get there, nothing "elitist" about that.
For example, one person suggested buffing CN back to where it was in Mod 8/9, to "better prepare players". If this is the plan, then why stop at CN? Why not buff all the dungeons to make them harder - you know, to toughen up those players? Where do you draw the line, and why?
Well that was one person's opinion, why should I agree with it completely? I'm OK to increase a bit Orcus' punchs to create a little bit more of challenge for newcomers tanks and heals, but I'm opposed to buffing old T2 like etos/ecc because I think they're fine as they are in the current line of progression.
And, by the way, because you still like to twist words:
I'm well aware that most of the people coming to Janne's defense come from her guild or her alliance.
There are several thousands players on my alliance. Sure I know every one of them, and come "in defense" of them :eyeroll: I'm just defending my opinion, not them they can do it very well by themselves.
Why would buffing older dungeons not be consistent with linear progression?
We could have: T1's - easy T2's - harder than they are now (buff ETOS/ECC/EGWD) T2.5 - CN - harder than T2's, buff to make it harder like you want T3's - FBI, etc. - still harder yet
So, you could still have linear progression by buffing older dungeons. Right now, there isn't really much difference between ELOL and ETOS. Wouldn't buffing ETOS make more sense from a linear progression perspective? Why not? What is your argument against it?
In terms of linear progression? It's not worse. It just lowers the slope of the line, instead of raising it like you want to do. But it would still be somewhat linear. Why again is only your idea of "linear" considered valid, and any other ideas of what would constitute "linear" should be thrown out?
No one suggested that it is the only motivator, on the contrary, I've mentioned loot.
In passing, yes. But you still seem to be under the impression that finishing a challenge for its own sake is a larger motivator than it really is. Again the entire history of this game suggests that when presented with a choice between completing a challenge, or taking an exploit to get loot faster thereby avoiding the challenge, most people will choose the latter option over the former option.
Once again: There would have been no need for a Legit channel in the first place if people were strongly motivated by defeating hard dungeons just for the sake of the challenge. Instead what happens is, people rationally choose the path of least resistance.
The same thing happens right now in FBI. The people whom many people in this discussion think really "need" to learn from it, just avoid it because "it's too hard". Their time is better spent doing other things, from their point of view.
First, this is not correct. Second, I have replied to this multiple times, which you conveniently chose to ignore.
Yes, it is correct. And I know your reply is "people should do FBI the way I think they ought to do it, with a strong guild and strong friends' list, because that is how I do things". That isn't a great option for a lot of people, and as I tried to explain earlier, many people don't come here for the sake of hanging out with friends. Perhaps you need to broaden your experience and your understanding a bit. For those people who don't have a strong guild or a strong friends' list, should their concerns be taken into consideration at all?
If speaking of AD/time, those UES, how much they add per run? How much time is needed to create a CN key? A Tomb key? And what is the average net gain per run?
I don't know. But the value of UEs from FBI is exactly zero.
And I've addressed this multiple time, and again you always ignore this, how convenient. People do more than your posts, they actually make groups in game, and show people the way. If it's private or publicQ. There are those that talk, and those that do.
Yes I know that. Your solution is for everyone to be playing the game like you play the game, with their own little circle of friends.
And by the way, YOU are not the only one responding to my comments in this discussion. The comment that you were responding to was not even directed at you. Yes there are people in this discussion who seem to think that just lecturing players into "getting gud" will somehow make them want to go to FBI. That isn't the case. You are not the only participant in this discussion here.
Yet, I did saw someone scold a new player in-game, it was for his question about doing cradle. That someone made fun of his question, more or less telling the new player has no chance and should forget it.
If you're going to keep repeating this irrelevant bit of drama, you may as well get the story right.
When this player asked about doing Cradle, I did not make fun of this player's question. I did not lecture or scold or berate or humiliate this player. What I said was, Cradle is very difficult, the rewards aren't needed for endgame progression anyway, and that their time might be better spent elsewhere. That's it. You have totally blown this episode completely out of proportion. And it is completely irrelevant in the context of the current discussion anyway. We are not talking about Cradle. We are not even talking about a population of players who are ready for content like Cradle. Why are you even bringing it up?
The problem doesn't reside in the dungeon or its difficulty, but on the players not willing to learn how to run an endgame dungeon. And please, don't tell me that this sentence is "elitist" or whatever. I know plenty of low IL people, that I helped through FBI, because they were willing to learn and understand. People that are not willing to learn should not advance past CN, because, endgame is more "demanding" than a simple walk-and-smash. It's not an elitist attitude, just a normal MMO's endgame. And, except CR, it's not like the mechanics are hard to understand, just a bit of practice and you'll get there, nothing "elitist" about that.
Okay, so if the problem is people not willing to learn how to do endgame dungeons, how do you incentivize these people to want to learn? My solution is to adjust the incentives more in their favor. Your solution is.... to yell at them more to "git gud"?
And in my view, elitism is less about a willingness to help people, and more about the mentality for wanting to do so (or not). I see a lot of people here who want to "help people" by demanding that these people do things the way that THEY think things ought to be done. That shows a great lack of humility. Personally I think it is far preferable to want to help people by accepting people for where they are at, and working with them in the context of their current circumstances. Not trying to change people to be someone other than who they are, but instead adapting particular solutions to different people. That doesn't mean every creative solution will always work, but overall I think it is better than demanding that people do things the supposedly "only one and correct way".
Okay, so if the problem is people not willing to learn how to do endgame dungeons, how do you incentivize these people to want to learn? My solution is to adjust the incentives more in their favor. Your solution is.... to yell at them more to "git gud"?
I have not seen one person in this thread "yell" at anyone to "git gud". That would be a needlessly rude way to say what most people are *actually* saying, which seems to be "if they cannot complete the content, it may be because they need to improve." The essence of those 2 statements are both the same, and vastly different. The tone of the first is insulting, the tone of the second being constructive criticism. I can't speak for others, but I know from my personal experience that when I couldn't complete a piece of content, the fault lay with me. I needed to improve, and I would be willing to bet that most here have at some point run into roadblocks as well. Those roadblocks in between them and their goal (whether that be loot or personal achievement) inspired them to find ways around that, which may have involved getting better at their character, which could be why they feel comfortable suggesting that improvement might be the issue, and not the actual content.
And in my view, elitism is less about a willingness to help people, and more about the mentality for wanting to do so (or not). I see a lot of people here who want to "help people" by demanding that these people do things the way that THEY think things ought to be done. That shows a great lack of humility. Personally I think it is far preferable to want to help people by accepting people for where they are at, and working with them in the context of their current circumstances. Not trying to change people to be someone other than who they are, but instead adapting particular solutions to different people. That doesn't mean every creative solution will always work, but overall I think it is better than demanding that people do things the supposedly "only one and correct way".
Offering advice is in no way "demanding" that other people play as you deem fit. It is saying "Here is what I did, this works for me, it can work for you". Is it unreasonable to ask that people who are fragile in FBI to get everfrost resistance? I think not. However, based on your reactions to ANY suggestion on how to improve a solo-queuer's experience in FBI, any suggestion is viewed as a demand. How else can anyone offer advice? They can only respond using their own personal experience in dealing with the exact same problem. We are, as you put it, accepting the game where it is at, and working in the context of our current circumstances. There are ways to complete the content as is, and several people have offered valid solutions to the problem you presented. We aren't trying to change the game to be other than it is, rather, we're offering creative solutions within its current state. The animosity you perceive is a direct response to the hostility brought into this thread by you when you summarily dismiss any view that is in opposition from yours.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Why would buffing older dungeons not be consistent with linear progression?
We could have: T1's - easy T2's - harder than they are now (buff ETOS/ECC/EGWD) T2.5 - CN - harder than T2's, buff to make it harder like you want T3's - FBI, etc. - still harder yet
So, you could still have linear progression by buffing older dungeons. Right now, there isn't really much difference between ELOL and ETOS. Wouldn't buffing ETOS make more sense from a linear progression perspective? Why not? What is your argument against it?
I never argued against it or for it specifically, it is you who took the CN suggestion and turned it into a dismissive hyperbole about eToS. With negative connotation "Toughen then up"
It is for a long time that NW breaks the progress in large part with the catchup gear. This both makes a lot of queued content obsolete even to new players who never did it, and breaks any clear path for players to progress in both their skill, understanding, experience, and gear.
In general: Once it was get to 60, get T1 set, doing T1, progress and go T2 Do T2, get T2 set, progress to CN
Then it was get to 70, get EE gear, prgoress to T1 Do T1, get better gear / seals progress to T2 Do T2, repeat..
Now, go Vistani quest, get gear, ignore half the dungeons, or just RQ and leave at whim. Where RQ in turn is a mess of mind numbing skirmishes, 10 people content, and variation in difficulty.
As was mentioned (not by me) moving the AD into RQ as mandatory and not bonus is in large responsible for a lot of this mess.
If eLoL and eToS are the same the sure, buff eToS. More so, there are several dungeons there, they do not have to be the same difficulty and have the same rewards. Close but do not have to be the same.
People soloing elol in about 5 minutes. New players skip it. What it's purpose? Another line in the RQ?
In terms of linear progression? It's not worse. It just lowers the slope of the line, instead of raising it like you want to do. But it would still be somewhat linear. Why again is only your idea of "linear" considered valid, and any other ideas of what would constitute "linear" should be thrown out?
I'm sorry, but this is not what linear is, nor it is now.
Lets say this is what we have now:
You suggest to make it more like this:
I'm saying that is bad, to have easy easy easy, oops.. And it will be better to have something more:
No one suggested that it is the only motivator, on the contrary, I've mentioned loot.
In passing, yes. But you still seem to be under the impression that finishing a challenge for its own sake is a larger motivator than it really is. Again the entire history of this game suggests that when presented with a choice between completing a challenge, or taking an exploit to get loot faster thereby avoiding the challenge, most people will choose the latter option over the former option.
And those people will mostly quit immediately after. Because they have nothing to do.
Once again: There would have been no need for a Legit channel in the first place if people were strongly motivated by defeating hard dungeons just for the sake of the challenge. Instead what happens is, people rationally choose the path of least resistance.
No, the opposite, the wouldn't be a need for the legit channel if there wouldn't be people motivated by doing things correctly, being inclusive, and overcoming a challenge.
The same thing happens right now in FBI. The people whom many people in this discussion think really "need" to learn from it, just avoid it because "it's too hard". Their time is better spent doing other things, from their point of view.
Good for them, but they will fail at tomb and further. Your suggestion lowers their chances to do tomb and go further.
Creating an impassible gap between FBI and further progress will not help anyone.
This is a strawman. No one is arguing for this position.
This calls for a WTF You are arguing this for 8 pages now.. Do you understand that there is a difficulty gap between FBI and Tomb, as in, tomb more difficult? Per you argument, players have difficulty in FBI, then surely they can't have easy time in Tomb. Per your request FBI is made easier, so the difficulty difference between tomb and FBI grows. So how you expect people to do tomb? They will just wake up one morning knowing how to tank? or how to buff? or how to DPS? Divine intervention ? It worked for them so far in every content and now they can't get the first boss, what will they do? I'll tell you what, and it will not be improving, it will be asking to nerf tomb. And then repeat ad noseum, until everything is mod5 dead?
First, this is not correct. Second, I have replied to this multiple times, which you conveniently chose to ignore.
Yes, it is correct. And I know your reply is "people should do FBI the way I think they ought to do it, with a strong guild and strong friends' list, because that is how I do things". That isn't a great option for a lot of people, and as I tried to explain earlier, many people don't come here for the sake of hanging out with friends. Perhaps you need to broaden your experience and your understanding a bit. For those people who don't have a strong guild or a strong friends' list, should their concerns be taken into consideration at all?
1. You saying it is correct, that someone will do 4 eToS and never go to FBI is still doesn't make it so. Perhaps some will, but you don't have any numbers or proof or anything to convince about 'those players'
2. And here is the lovely stereotype rearing it's head, where did I say ""people should do FBI the way I think they ought to do it, with a strong guild and strong friends' list, because that is how I do things".
I was very very very clear about what I don't want to see in my party/surroundings, and it had nothing to do with IL, skill, game time, etc... You just can't get your assumptions and prejudice out of your head...
If speaking of AD/time, those UES, how much they add per run? How much time is needed to create a CN key? A Tomb key? And what is the average net gain per run?
I don't know. But the value of UEs from FBI is exactly zero.
Check it then, because per your own argument, why do 1 Tomb for a chance of UES, if we can do 2 FBI at the same time?
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
And I've addressed this multiple time, and again you always ignore this, how convenient. People do more than your posts, they actually make groups in game, and show people the way. If it's private or publicQ. There are those that talk, and those that do.
Yes I know that. Your solution is for everyone to be playing the game like you play the game, with their own little circle of friends.
How nice to see that you took the time to read anything that others wrote /s Remember this part, next time you talk about dismissive and insults.
This is your quote: "So what is your plan to help random teams get through FBI, so that they are ready for TONG and further endgame dungeons? Lecture them harder?"
And I've clearly said, at least once, maybe twice, maybe enough times that even you will not skip it. Creating more linear difficulty curve, for example CN...
And by the way, YOU are not the only one responding to my comments in this discussion. The comment that you were responding to was not even directed at you. Yes there are people in this discussion who seem to think that just lecturing players into "getting gud" will somehow make them want to go to FBI. That isn't the case. You are not the only participant in this discussion here.
Sure, so who exactly lecturing new players to get good? Saying that players need to learn how to play, is not wrong, we all learned how to play, and still do. I don't see the shame in saying that I have a lot more to do there too..
Telling you in this thread that new players need to learn how to play is not lecturing new players in-game. And actually correct, new players should learn, and the better the opportunity and resources that are available for that, the better and more rewarding the expiriance will be.
Yet, I did saw someone scold a new player in-game, it was for his question about doing cradle. That someone made fun of his question, more or less telling the new player has no chance and should forget it.
If you're going to keep repeating this irrelevant bit of drama, you may as well get the story right.
When this player asked about doing Cradle, I did not make fun of this player's question. I did not lecture or scold or berate or humiliate this player. What I said was, Cradle is very difficult, the rewards aren't needed for endgame progression anyway, and that their time might be better spent elsewhere. That's it. You have totally blown this episode completely out of proportion. And it is completely irrelevant in the context of the current discussion anyway. We are not talking about Cradle. We are not even talking about a population of players who are ready for content like Cradle. Why are you even bringing it up?
1. Interesting that you mention rewards, as Cradle has the best rewards per time in the game now. And per your own UES criteria, the best source for those.
2. No, we are talking about lecturing to new players.
I never argued against it or for it specifically, it is you who took the CN suggestion and turned it into a dismissive hyperbole about eToS. With negative connotation "Toughen then up"
No, when I suggested "buff eToS", that is not "dismissive hyperbole", that is the logical extension of your own idea. YOU are the one who projected "dismissive hyperbole" onto the idea. It was not intended as "dismissive hyperbole". And then you finally said:
I'm sorry, but this is not what linear is, nor it is now.
Lets say this is what we have now:
Those graphs are very cute. But that is not at all how I perceive it, nor how I think the population of solo queuers perceives it.
The way I see it, current progression is more like this:
What I want to do, is to make it more like this:
What you seem to want to do, is make it more like this:
What many people seem to THINK I want to do, is this:
Better?
So we both agree that the current state is nonlinear, and that we both want progression to be more linear. Now, please explain why progression should be linearized by making older content even harder, espeically when they don't drop any rewards to justify that level of difficulty.
No, the opposite, the wouldn't be a need for the legit channel if there wouldn't be people motivated by doing things correctly, being inclusive, and overcoming a challenge.
If the dominant culture was "oh no, we will eschew exploits and do dungeons correctly", there would be no need for a channel devoted to eschewing exploits and doing dungeons correctly. The Legit channel arose because the great majority of players at the time were exploiting dungeons, and this community of players stood IN OPPOSITION to the dominant culture that existed at the time, and wanted a place to find groups that wouldn't exploit. This is not really controversial. At this point you are just being oppositional for the sake of opposing me. Perhaps your ego cannot stand conceding a point to me. (And by the way, I have acknowledged many good points that you have made.)
Good for them, but they will fail at tomb and further. Your suggestion lowers their chances to do tomb and go further.
If they will fail at Tomb because they aren't doing FBI as a training ground to develop their character, because they're avoiding it, then it seems like the current set of incentives are out of whack, doesn't it?
Creating an impassible gap between FBI and further progress will not help anyone.
This is a strawman. No one is arguing for this position.
This calls for a WTF You are arguing this for 8 pages now..
No one is arguing for "creating an impassible[sic] gap between FBI and further progress". Why in the world do you think I started this discussion in the first place? Do you really think that *I personally* cannot finish FBI and that's why I demand nerfs? That is not true. I've finished it on three characters now, many many times. I started this discussion because the current set of incentives with respect to FBI are broken for those who really struggle with this dungeon. Adjusting the incentives, *without changing the core mechanics of the dungeon*, will both allow players to complete the dungeon in a more reasonable amount of time - satisfying their incentive to get more AD/loot - while at the same time necessitating that they develop their characters more in order to handle those mechanics. It is a win/win. It seems that many of the people scared of this change, are those who cling to the status quo no matter what, those who reflexively oppose any change whatsoever, those who really don't give a damn about players who struggle in this dungeon because who cares about those dirty filthy pugs anyway, and - finally - those who object to what I say only because I'm the one saying it.
Do you understand that there is a difficulty gap between FBI and Tomb, as in, tomb more difficult? Per you argument, players have difficulty in FBI, then surely they can't have easy time in Tomb. Per your request FBI is made easier, so the difficulty difference between tomb and FBI grows. So how you expect people to do tomb? They will just wake up one morning knowing how to tank? or how to buff? or how to DPS? Divine intervention ? It worked for them so far in every content and now they can't get the first boss, what will they do?
This is your hyperbole showing. Absolutely NO ONE in this discussion is advocating taking away the necessity to tank, or buff, in FBI for those groups who currently struggle with it.
I'll tell you what, and it will not be improving, it will be asking to nerf tomb. And then repeat ad noseum, until everything is mod5 dead?
I guess that is your real fear here, that everything will be so trivially easy? Relax, we are nowhere near a Mod 5 state of affairs, at least for the vast majority. That is not what I'm advocating. Please put away your strawmen.
First, this is not correct. Second, I have replied to this multiple times, which you conveniently chose to ignore.
Yes, it is correct. And I know your reply is "people should do FBI the way I think they ought to do it, with a strong guild and strong friends' list, because that is how I do things". That isn't a great option for a lot of people, and as I tried to explain earlier, many people don't come here for the sake of hanging out with friends. Perhaps you need to broaden your experience and your understanding a bit. For those people who don't have a strong guild or a strong friends' list, should their concerns be taken into consideration at all?
1. You saying it is correct, that someone will do 4 eToS and never go to FBI is still doesn't make it so. Perhaps some will, but you don't have any numbers or proof or anything to convince about 'those players'
I see it every day in my alliance. I see players requesting teams for CN, eDemo, RIQ, etc., but those same players I never even see asking for FBI or anything harder, even though I can see that they meet the entrance requirements for the dungeon. I hardly think my alliance is unique in that regards. Go ask the newer players in your alliance what they think about dungeons like FBI.
2. And here is the lovely stereotype rearing it's head, where did I say ""people should do FBI the way I think they ought to do it, with a strong guild and strong friends' list, because that is how I do things".
I was very very very clear about what I don't want to see in my party/surroundings, and it had nothing to do with IL, skill, game time, etc... You just can't get your assumptions and prejudice out of your head...
YOU interpreted "strong" as having something to do with item level or skill. That is not what I meant by "strong". I meant one that is active and robust. You are the one who injected your assumptions into my comment.
And yes you have made it quite clear that you think the way for struggling people to get through FBI is via their guild and their alliance and their circle of friends showing them the ropes in that dungeon. And that is a good suggestion. But that suggestion does not work for everyone. What about the class of players for whom that suggestion does not work?
If speaking of AD/time, those UES, how much they add per run? How much time is needed to create a CN key? A Tomb key? And what is the average net gain per run?
I don't know. But the value of UEs from FBI is exactly zero.
Check it then, because per your own argument, why do 1 Tomb for a chance of UES, if we can do 2 FBI at the same time?
You would have to do more than 2 FBI's to get the AD needed to buy a UE at current prices. Probably more like 7 or 8. And I don't know what the drop rate is on UEs in TOMB in order to calculate what the reward/time ratio really is.
Let's assume that the cost of a UE is ~300k, which is about what it is when it's not close to 2xSeals or 2xGems weekend, at least last I checked. In order to get this 300k to buy a UE from RAD alone, one would have to run dungeons for at least 3 days, subject to the 100k RAD/day refining cap. So as long as the drop rate of UEs from TONG is high enough, and you are willing to commit yourself to running enough TONGs, such that you get at least one UE every THREE DAYS, you are coming out ahead by running TONG. The cost of the extra key in TONG can be more than covered with the RAD salvage that you get from TONG plus the various daily tasks (Folly, etc.) to generate totems for keys for TONG. And even if you run out of the special keys, you still come out ahead if you only open the main chest and get a UE once every *three days*.
Saying that players need to learn how to play, is not wrong, we all learned how to play, and still do. I don't see the shame in saying that I have a lot more to do there too..
Everyone has room for improvement.
But to actually motivate someone to improve, one needs more than just a lecture. One needs the proper set of incentives.
Telling someone to just learn to play, without the proper incentives, is pointless.
2. No, we are talking about lecturing to new players.
No, this is actually just your passive-aggressive way of bringing up irrelevant outside drama in order to smear me and accuse me of being some sort of hypocrite.
Neither of the runs were a struggle or difficult..... How is my video proves it was a struggle? Was there any doubt for a moment that it will be completed?
Obviously. The first run didn't even need you they were well on their way to first boss because 3 people had already left and been replaced. There was no doubt it would be completed with or without you, only overgeared and exp. players were left and you just added to it. The 2nd run in that time is a no brainer.
Those runs like the above are not as uncommon as people make them, yes, there is variance, but it's mainly the people who just quit fault and not even giving the dungeon a try.
How do you know this? This is clearly your first ventures into solo RAQ for a long time by your own admissions. You are blaming the ones who have quit, now put this in context with fun/rewarding etc etc. How do you know they have never tried? They probably have more exp. with this then you and made a quick informed decision on the run and overall exp.
I believe that MMO is not only about solo playing and farming. The enjoyment of the game is to play with others, help each other, do content. People who reduce everything to only the math of gain and loss in their "farm" should stick to single player games.
This is all well but the fact is casual, solo players far outweigh that which you prefer in most circumstances. Even with these it does not mean that they do not want player/group participation at times. How do you equate solo players with only wanting those things? Your advice to any of those players is to go away and stick to SP games?
7 pages of waste of time, because one person think that he speaks for the 'weak and poor. When run dry of any actual argument, it is back to demagoguery, with some generalizations and insults.
You wasted your own time. You approached the discussion with biased views and flawed logic, allowed yourself to get involved in petty squabbles which exposed critical weaknesses in your reasoning/expectations. I will not get into the who was right or wrong with the childish "bet" as amusing as it was lol. Also take the time to read the whole discussion, there is more then one person who thinks this is negative and even more in game if you go ask the relevant people.
This is why we discuss "what should be done", not what is, and definitely not what really will happen.
With the exception of what really will happen, your reasoning is leaving out a lot of relevant information on the past, present and what could be. If you do not take everything or even most relevant information into consideration your conclusion on what should be done will more often be skewered.
The problem here is not the dungeon difficulty. The problem here is the random queue system itself and the use of the AD rewards to "encourage" players to use it. Eliminating the random queue system would eliminate most of the perceived problems with FBI.
Comments
What rewards have to do with this? Your run with your guild, or help new players in your guilds only if the rewards are suitable ??
Whatever the dungeon was, I tried to beat it with the party I was given. I completed both FBI and MSP, solo queue, in acceptable times with these charscters. With the exception of when the turtle bugged, none of these runs failed except for when people didn't even try.
I had a run which went well at first, clearing the first few packs until some died and rage quit, starting a chain reaction that left me in an empty instant.
A similar run ended at the plateau with the tent. After the first try, I asked the CW to Entangling Force the orc runner. The response was that, "control died on mod 6" and then we waited out the remaining 15 minutes before we could vote to abandon.
Note that in both cases, the group was clearly capable of clearing the giant packs, but just decided quitting would be easier.
I still solo queue, just not random queue. Two weeks ago, I queued for FBI on my HR. It took longer for the queue pop than people stayed in the dungeon before sign posting out, disconnecting, AFKing at the campfire.
So let me make this clear. I solo queue and I don't want the content made easier so that people like that get rewarded.
Best in show still has to go to the OP tank on MSP that faced his character to the wall and spammed the party chat with, 'kik me.'
I will admit, I have not pugged FBI in a long while, mainly because when I do pug now, it is normally CR. I have pugged somewhere over 30 CRs now and to date, my worst pug CR was still better then my worst alliance CR (although it was close to as bad) and my best pug CR was under 25 minutes, which put it in competition with decent premade runs.
All this being said, when a random queue goes badly, it is normally due to a lack of communication. The ones that go well, you give advice to people, ask them to switch power x with power y and they comply. You can even have some friendly party banter while you are running. The ones that take longer, players outright ignore you, or sit in their own corner of denial and ask to be removed from the dungeon. This is a player issue, not a content issue.
As i've said, i rarely run an dungeon outside "premade" guild/members from the alliance/or poeple from the friendlist from guild or alliancemembers.
But what i did often in the past, was random skirmishes, for testing stuff or just for fun.
The testing stuff was smth for me "if it works with randoms, it should even work better running with guildmates".
But i have noticed maybe since 1 1/2 year....many people (not all for sure) are for me too fast in giving up, or even decline to try it, or are in the "carry me please" mode.
Few examples?
Throne of the Dwarven Gods...5 people in, and 3 seconds later the first left the instance, bc it is ToDG.
Can't count how often the Hulk Phase was screwed, bc most poeple where dps'ing them.
Or even the dps Variant, protecting the two Healers?, the Tank is constantly standing besides them and leading the adds to them, instead of intercepting them in the Forefield and let the Golems simply go.
Am i right or not?
Prophecy of Madness, same can't count how often people abandonded the instance, instead of simply trying it.
Am i right or not?
Next example, for me the best:
Illusionist Gambit, common sense: "Bronze pls...Bronze pls...BROOOOOOOONNNNZEEEEEEEE!!!!!
They don't even try it, bc it so hard to take patience, when the reflect damage phase started.
(and i have to admit, my beloved Guildleader and me had alot of fun, when she tried to farm +4 rings for her Companion and we bombed the vote for Gold^^).
Am i right or not? (besides of trolling people in Gambit, ok)
So this is what i am (personally) thinking about alot of people today, not willing to try things out, but to hope for been carried through everything...
When i start playing NW, the first things i've learned was :
§1 Protect the Cleric at any cost.
§2 There is no "I" in Team
But nowadays...
It is so often:
"Oh i don't like that, screw the rest i am out..."
If you had made an Topic, instead of an nerfing request, like:
"Dear devs pls overthink the random q"
And with some suggestion, from you and maybe others, how the q could be maybe made better.
Be it T1, 1.5, T2, T2.5 and T3.
I (and maybe others here, critizising you), would then support you.
My suggestion would maybe be:
Let Fbi as it is, but the devs should put in a big, fat Warning written in red, with:
"Beware Adventurer you are entering an stepping stone in your journey, entering at your own risk.
Are you feeling you are brave enough?
Nice day for dying, isn't it...huha"
But think about it, many mods ago, people were doing said dungeon without a problem, now, after u gotten way and i do mean WAY better gear and u still cant finish it i honestly don't think u should then, u should look at ur toon, think of what u can improve, get out there, make friends that u can run with and improve together, this is the main reason why people say get a guild, not just to get boons but to get to meet new people that can help u improve.
So yes the incentives have predominantly been about the rewards to time/effort ratio. Not really about the challenge itself.
If you all REALLY want players to improve so that they don't struggle so badly in places like FBI, you have to incentivize them to do so. Lecturing them won't do it. Treating them like dirt won't do it.
Think about it from the point of view of a player who is starting to reach endgame. If I'm going to struggle and suffer in a challenging dungeon for an hour or more, why would I want to do so in one that won't offer anything that is relevant for endgame progression even if I should finish? At least TONG offers a *chance* at a UE.
2. This was the reason /legit was formed, and that was around the last time I have ever used public queued for my own progress.
So what is your point? legit was the largest and most active channel at the time, its explosive growth and sharp decline came too, but until then it was the reason people played and didn't quit.
So you prove me right be bringing the example of huge group of people that actually prove my point?
I was a mod in legit, so were most of my guild founding members (admins/mods).
BTW legit was not the only one, some of the older guilds existed back then like Tyr.
3. Why my friends list shrunk at mod5? When everything became so stupid easy. I still may have demo recordings of solong everything..
4. Do not assume that your reasons are applicable to everyone else. Ofc everyone will want a worthy loot, shiny things are always nice, but why you think people ask for more end-game content and not some skirmish? If you only count things in terms of farm, good for you, this is not why I play, nor many others who I know.
You keep and keep assuming, generalizing, insulting.
"Not even you are that naive"
Perhaps it's time to grasp that there are people with different priorities and values than you? Maybe finally take the time and read for once, what I've explained and repeated, for example that I don't soloQ not because I'm in any way afraid to do 1 hour dungeons...Where you assume 15 minute runs, and other nonsense.
But because many people play the game not for it's great content (there isn't one really) but because of the people they play with.
What is the point endless grind of the same over and over ? Imaginary currency? What's the point? This is the a means to an end
The objective is to have friends, teamwork, and overcome some challenge, or just run together. If not that, then there are better single players games, with better graphics, better story, less bugs, various settings, etc..
You mock and insult 'elitists' etc, but why at the end people min-max? Look for better builds? For group synergy? If it's not a challenge on it's own. To solo, to be fast, to one phase. People do not get better rewards if they spent hours on a single boss repeating it trying to one phase it. They will get only one reward, while they could have run the same thing dozen of times.. so where is the AD/time there?
Stop with narrow mindness.
So let me quote myself: -------- Or I can create a linear progress and adjust it all, so CN orcus is like it was and needed tanking. I don't understand how hoard is it to grasp that people who are more prepared to something, will have better chance to complete it and in a smoother and faster way. The more earlier you start the easier it comes. It is easier to understand how to match a circle to a circle hole, than how to disassemble and assemble a vehicle.
Why there should be a gap? Why people should just queue into something and have no idea of how to handle it. How people reach 'adulthood' without some basic skills?
In most modern societies people get prepared as they grow, you know, basic math skills, a birds and the bees talk, etc..
You do not throw people into university after kindergarten and expect success.
One of the most basic things when building a lecture / assignment or anything, is to have several types of questions of verity of difficulty. Students loose interest quickly if the questions are too easy, or too hard. There is a sweet spot for average student in terms of time it takes to find a solution, or to progress.
This is why 'online' or computer based assignments can be designed to maximize students interest and learning time, by keeping the success rate positive and constant, but increasing or lowering the difficulty as a student progresses or stumbles.
That might be highly unusual for you, but that is not the experience of everyone. I DON'T think the solo queue experience
shouldsucks for FBI. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!I understand that many people here WANT newer players who struggle with FBI to be motivated by the desire to know how to play their character better - "power". But many are not, at least as much as you want them to be. Many are motivated more by the "money", wanting more AD/loot. I personally do not believe anything is wrong with that. It does take a LOT of AD to build up one's character. at least beyond the 14k mark or so. So my position is, instead of trying to change people's motivations to be something other than what they are, by scolding them (not you specifically scolding, just in general) that they should "get gud" or "learn to play", that we should instead be more accepting of people where they are at. Let FBI have a more reasonable AD/time ratio *for those who really need it* - to satisfy their motivation for "money" - while at the same time, keep the core mechanics intact, so that as a byproduct, they are by necessity motivated by developing more knowledge about their character, the "power".
If I were dev for a day, I would not nerf FBI to the ground. I would make minor adjustments - none to the core mechanics - so that the expected completion time for a random team would be in the 30-40 minute range, and not what it is currently, somewhere above 40 minutes. That's really all I'm asking. Not a huge nerf. We are all narrow-minded to a degree. I am at least trying to see it from the perspective of outside my immediate circle of friends and acquaintances.
The question would be more correct if addressed to you. Do you realize that you don't speak for the entiere game? It really seems you don't. Reading you, you speak for everyone that's "not elitist nor endgame". You don't, you only express YOUR opinion.
And the fantastic thing about opinion, it's that people are allowed to have a different one than yours. And guess what? Lots of people here expressed their opinion, with (imho) way more valid arguments than yours.
And, because you like very much twisting other's words and posts, I prefer say this now: People that wrote on this thread are not necessary Micky's or Sharp's friends, that you (wrongly) call "elitists". I know these players in-game for they are in my alliance, and I know a part of their work for the community, but I believe I never ran with them.
So that makes me (as an example, but so is the case for lots of respondants here), someone that just disagree with you, offering arguments that you just can't manage to respond to, because YOU think that YOUR opinion on the subject is the truth, and that FBI should be nerfed.
And you know what's even funnier? You are doing the exact same thing that I was mentionning earlier on the thread. You want FBI nerfed, so a next dungeon will become the "gap" to endgame, TONG in your opinion.
But then in a few months, you are going to open another thread stating "is it time to nerf TONG yet" because you can't pass it with a random queue, because, well, people are not prepared for the dungeon. And why aren't they prepared? BECAUSE YOU NERFED FBI.
The same logic went into getting rid of AD rewards for PvP, after which it spiraled down the drain because none of the underlying issues were dealt with, and if anything became worse. Largely, the only people that were (are) left are a few of the highest achievers and a rotating assortment of lowbies that haven't realized they shouldn't bother yet.
On the contrary, plenty of people have not responded (at least in good faith) to many of the arguments that I have presented.
For example, one person suggested buffing CN back to where it was in Mod 8/9, to "better prepare players". If this is the plan, then why stop at CN? Why not buff all the dungeons to make them harder - you know, to toughen up those players? Where do you draw the line, and why?
Or, the idea that players broadly are naively motivated by overcoming a challenge for the challenge's sake. The entire history of this game says otherwise. Quite often, players are motivated BOTH by becoming a better player, AND by the AD/loot rewards at the end of the dungeon, and more often, it's the AD/loot that is the stronger motivator. So just insisting that people should do FBI in order to get better, will not change these underlying motivations. If nothing changes, these same players for whom you allegedly are so concerned with helping to prepare for endgame content, they won't be ready for TONG anyway, because they will have completely avoided FBI since it's in their rational interest to do so. Why spend 1 hour in FBI when you can get the same RAD rewards in the same amount of time from 3-4 ETOS runs?
If random players are going to struggle and suffer in an endgame dungeon, then it should be one that offers actual endgame rewards. You can't get UEs from FBI, but you can from TONG. 3-4 ETOS runs likely won't cover the cost of 1 UE.
You see, my plan actually does help players get prepared for endgame dungeons, by altering the incentives in FBI so that BOTH getting the loot AND becoming a better player are on a more even playing field. As I've mentioned many times, I don't at all favor nerfing FBI to the ground so that it is not a challenge at all.
Believe it or not, people tend not to be motivated to get better by being scolded and lectured to, especially not in a game.
So what is your plan to help random teams get through FBI, so that they are ready for TONG and further endgame dungeons? Lecture them harder?
Or why your suggestion is worse? No one suggested that it is the only motivator, on the contrary, I've mentioned loot.
Creating an impassible gap between FBI and further progress will not help anyone. First, this is not correct.
Second, I have replied to this multiple times, which you conveniently chose to ignore. If speaking of AD/time, those UES, how much they add per run? How much time is needed to create a CN key? A Tomb key? And what is the average net gain per run? And again, this was addressed multiple time, where you saw me for example scold a new player in-game? And I've addressed this multiple time, and again you always ignore this, how convenient. People do more than your posts, they actually make groups in game, and show people the way. If it's private or publicQ. There are those that talk, and those that do.
Yet, I did saw someone scold a new player in-game, it was for his question about doing cradle. That someone made fun of his question, more or less telling the new player has no chance and should forget it.
Again, FBI is now an old dungeon, the powercreep already makes it way easier for everyone to complete. The future powercreep will add even more facility, and so on. FBI is just a step to learn to play your class and as a team. In a not so distant future, FBI will be more forgiving more random teams, with the gear increase.
The problem doesn't reside in the dungeon or its difficulty, but on the players not willing to learn how to run an endgame dungeon. And please, don't tell me that this sentence is "elitist" or whatever. I know plenty of low IL people, that I helped through FBI, because they were willing to learn and understand.
People that are not willing to learn should not advance past CN, because, endgame is more "demanding" than a simple walk-and-smash. It's not an elitist attitude, just a normal MMO's endgame. And, except CR, it's not like the mechanics are hard to understand, just a bit of practice and you'll get there, nothing "elitist" about that. Well that was one person's opinion, why should I agree with it completely? I'm OK to increase a bit Orcus' punchs to create a little bit more of challenge for newcomers tanks and heals, but I'm opposed to buffing old T2 like etos/ecc because I think they're fine as they are in the current line of progression.
And, by the way, because you still like to twist words: There are several thousands players on my alliance. Sure I know every one of them, and come "in defense" of them :eyeroll: I'm just defending my opinion, not them they can do it very well by themselves.
We could have:
T1's - easy
T2's - harder than they are now (buff ETOS/ECC/EGWD)
T2.5 - CN - harder than T2's, buff to make it harder like you want
T3's - FBI, etc. - still harder yet
So, you could still have linear progression by buffing older dungeons. Right now, there isn't really much difference between ELOL and ETOS. Wouldn't buffing ETOS make more sense from a linear progression perspective? Why not? What is your argument against it? In terms of linear progression? It's not worse. It just lowers the slope of the line, instead of raising it like you want to do. But it would still be somewhat linear. Why again is only your idea of "linear" considered valid, and any other ideas of what would constitute "linear" should be thrown out? In passing, yes. But you still seem to be under the impression that finishing a challenge for its own sake is a larger motivator than it really is. Again the entire history of this game suggests that when presented with a choice between completing a challenge, or taking an exploit to get loot faster thereby avoiding the challenge, most people will choose the latter option over the former option.
Once again: There would have been no need for a Legit channel in the first place if people were strongly motivated by defeating hard dungeons just for the sake of the challenge. Instead what happens is, people rationally choose the path of least resistance.
The same thing happens right now in FBI. The people whom many people in this discussion think really "need" to learn from it, just avoid it because "it's too hard". Their time is better spent doing other things, from their point of view. This is a strawman. No one is arguing for this position. Yes, it is correct. And I know your reply is "people should do FBI the way I think they ought to do it, with a strong guild and strong friends' list, because that is how I do things". That isn't a great option for a lot of people, and as I tried to explain earlier, many people don't come here for the sake of hanging out with friends. Perhaps you need to broaden your experience and your understanding a bit. For those people who don't have a strong guild or a strong friends' list, should their concerns be taken into consideration at all? I don't know. But the value of UEs from FBI is exactly zero. Yes I know that. Your solution is for everyone to be playing the game like you play the game, with their own little circle of friends.
And by the way, YOU are not the only one responding to my comments in this discussion. The comment that you were responding to was not even directed at you. Yes there are people in this discussion who seem to think that just lecturing players into "getting gud" will somehow make them want to go to FBI. That isn't the case. You are not the only participant in this discussion here. If you're going to keep repeating this irrelevant bit of drama, you may as well get the story right.
When this player asked about doing Cradle, I did not make fun of this player's question. I did not lecture or scold or berate or humiliate this player. What I said was, Cradle is very difficult, the rewards aren't needed for endgame progression anyway, and that their time might be better spent elsewhere. That's it. You have totally blown this episode completely out of proportion. And it is completely irrelevant in the context of the current discussion anyway. We are not talking about Cradle. We are not even talking about a population of players who are ready for content like Cradle. Why are you even bringing it up?
And in my view, elitism is less about a willingness to help people, and more about the mentality for wanting to do so (or not). I see a lot of people here who want to "help people" by demanding that these people do things the way that THEY think things ought to be done. That shows a great lack of humility. Personally I think it is far preferable to want to help people by accepting people for where they are at, and working with them in the context of their current circumstances. Not trying to change people to be someone other than who they are, but instead adapting particular solutions to different people. That doesn't mean every creative solution will always work, but overall I think it is better than demanding that people do things the supposedly "only one and correct way".
It is for a long time that NW breaks the progress in large part with the catchup gear. This both makes a lot of queued content obsolete even to new players who never did it, and breaks any clear path for players to progress in both their skill, understanding, experience, and gear.
In general:
Once it was get to 60, get T1 set, doing T1, progress and go T2
Do T2, get T2 set, progress to CN
Then it was get to 70, get EE gear, prgoress to T1
Do T1, get better gear / seals progress to T2
Do T2, repeat..
Now, go Vistani quest, get gear, ignore half the dungeons, or just RQ and leave at whim.
Where RQ in turn is a mess of mind numbing skirmishes, 10 people content, and variation in difficulty.
As was mentioned (not by me) moving the AD into RQ as mandatory and not bonus is in large responsible for a lot of this mess.
If eLoL and eToS are the same the sure, buff eToS. More so, there are several dungeons there, they do not have to be the same difficulty and have the same rewards. Close but do not have to be the same.
People soloing elol in about 5 minutes. New players skip it. What it's purpose? Another line in the RQ? I'm sorry, but this is not what linear is, nor it is now.
Lets say this is what we have now:
You suggest to make it more like this:
I'm saying that is bad, to have easy easy easy, oops..
And it will be better to have something more:
And those people will mostly quit immediately after. Because they have nothing to do. No, the opposite, the wouldn't be a need for the legit channel if there wouldn't be people motivated by doing things correctly, being inclusive, and overcoming a challenge. Good for them, but they will fail at tomb and further. Your suggestion lowers their chances to do tomb and go further. This calls for a WTF
You are arguing this for 8 pages now..
Do you understand that there is a difficulty gap between FBI and Tomb, as in, tomb more difficult?
Per you argument, players have difficulty in FBI, then surely they can't have easy time in Tomb.
Per your request FBI is made easier, so the difficulty difference between tomb and FBI grows.
So how you expect people to do tomb? They will just wake up one morning knowing how to tank? or how to buff? or how to DPS? Divine intervention ? It worked for them so far in every content and now they can't get the first boss, what will they do? I'll tell you what, and it will not be improving, it will be asking to nerf tomb. And then repeat ad noseum, until everything is mod5 dead? 1. You saying it is correct, that someone will do 4 eToS and never go to FBI is still doesn't make it so. Perhaps some will, but you don't have any numbers or proof or anything to convince about 'those players'
2. And here is the lovely stereotype rearing it's head, where did I say ""people should do FBI the way I think they ought to do it, with a strong guild and strong friends' list, because that is how I do things".
I was very very very clear about what I don't want to see in my party/surroundings, and it had nothing to do with IL, skill, game time, etc...
You just can't get your assumptions and prejudice out of your head... Check it then, because per your own argument, why do 1 Tomb for a chance of UES, if we can do 2 FBI at the same time?
Remember this part, next time you talk about dismissive and insults.
This is your quote:
"So what is your plan to help random teams get through FBI, so that they are ready for TONG and further endgame dungeons? Lecture them harder?"
And I've clearly said, at least once, maybe twice, maybe enough times that even you will not skip it.
Creating more linear difficulty curve, for example CN... Sure, so who exactly lecturing new players to get good?
Saying that players need to learn how to play, is not wrong, we all learned how to play, and still do. I don't see the shame in saying that I have a lot more to do there too..
Telling you in this thread that new players need to learn how to play is not lecturing new players in-game. And actually correct, new players should learn, and the better the opportunity and resources that are available for that, the better and more rewarding the expiriance will be.
1. Interesting that you mention rewards, as Cradle has the best rewards per time in the game now. And per your own UES criteria, the best source for those.
2. No, we are talking about lecturing to new players.
The way I see it, current progression is more like this:
What I want to do, is to make it more like this:
What you seem to want to do, is make it more like this:
What many people seem to THINK I want to do, is this:
Better?
So we both agree that the current state is nonlinear, and that we both want progression to be more linear. Now, please explain why progression should be linearized by making older content even harder, espeically when they don't drop any rewards to justify that level of difficulty.
where is your escargot?
And yes you have made it quite clear that you think the way for struggling people to get through FBI is via their guild and their alliance and their circle of friends showing them the ropes in that dungeon. And that is a good suggestion. But that suggestion does not work for everyone. What about the class of players for whom that suggestion does not work? You would have to do more than 2 FBI's to get the AD needed to buy a UE at current prices. Probably more like 7 or 8. And I don't know what the drop rate is on UEs in TOMB in order to calculate what the reward/time ratio really is.
Let's assume that the cost of a UE is ~300k, which is about what it is when it's not close to 2xSeals or 2xGems weekend, at least last I checked. In order to get this 300k to buy a UE from RAD alone, one would have to run dungeons for at least 3 days, subject to the 100k RAD/day refining cap. So as long as the drop rate of UEs from TONG is high enough, and you are willing to commit yourself to running enough TONGs, such that you get at least one UE every THREE DAYS, you are coming out ahead by running TONG. The cost of the extra key in TONG can be more than covered with the RAD salvage that you get from TONG plus the various daily tasks (Folly, etc.) to generate totems for keys for TONG. And even if you run out of the special keys, you still come out ahead if you only open the main chest and get a UE once every *three days*.
But to actually motivate someone to improve, one needs more than just a lecture. One needs the proper set of incentives.
Telling someone to just learn to play, without the proper incentives, is pointless. No, this is actually just your passive-aggressive way of bringing up irrelevant outside drama in order to smear me and accuse me of being some sort of hypocrite.
Why is it two steps back buffing Orcus and trying to go with your vision of linear progression preference? Here: With the exception of what really will happen, your reasoning is leaving out a lot of relevant information on the past, present and what could be. If you do not take everything or even most relevant information into consideration your conclusion on what should be done will more often be skewered.