I think that many people don't realize something about FBI. That dungeon is basically the entry level dungeon for mechanics. Many solo queue groups will have to actually play the dungeon (at least) somewhat correct. Avoid meteor slams on the hill, try not to get the DOT from the first boss, kill the turtle quick enough, and do the Drufi mechanics for a smooth run. Even with 5 toons barely meeting the requirement, that can easily be done. If you manage to do those very simple things, you will be successful. That is not difficult whatsoever. If people don't follow the mechanics, well, they might have a rough time.
Also, if you queue for FBI without knowing the mechanics (or being unable to do them), you are basically lowering your team's chance of success by 20% (only for the lowest teams). No, that isn't some actual math thing. I am just saying, you are giving your team a huge disadvantage by going in without the [real] requirement. You need to know what you are playing (dungeon/class/role) and how to play it = real requirement. Don't expect to get carried. If you get lucky with a good squad, it doesn't matter what you do. You can just follow and watch. Everyone needs to learn the dungeon, don't be afraid to try your first run, but don't do it in solo queue. Going in with zero understanding/practice with mechanics of the game is fine with your friends, but why put that unnecessary burden on strangers though? Have your guild help you through your first few runs, if they won't, hmmm... maybe find a new guild? That is what I suggest.
If you are struggling to complete some content, watch some videos, read some guides, tweak some things on your character, or ASK FOR HELP!!! I am in many different discord chats. I can't remember a single time that a player said "is this good?" or "i need help deciding..." and didn't get any help. Usually, someone that knows what they are talking about replies and gives a sufficient answer. Instead, some players come to the forums asking the developers to nerf the game for them...
Ask for help. Everything in this game is a cake walk when done the right way (and there are many different "correct/viable" ways).
I personally find almost all my FBI solo queue experiences are like this. It takes a little bit longer, but is totally manageable.
9/10 solo queue runs are like the one micky1p00 posted here. That has been my experience with it. I usually queue with my CW for solo queues instead of my DC. I think it is good practice for timing rotations and adapting to random players, and it is more fun!
BTW, no, I didn't spend the time reading the entire "Is It Time To Nerf Cloak Tower Yet?" thread, so please don't flame me for that.
The question was posed earlier (at some point lost...) in the thread about sharing experience queuing solo for FBI- so here's mine: queue'd once today for RAQ with 17k dps character, got FBI- was a failure at the ascent with 11k gf and 11k dc. Queue'd RAQ and again (luckily!) got FBI- this time had 14k op and 15k dc: had a few (expected) deaths on the ascent, but the entire clear took about 40 mins with no wipes at any point. Oh, and received "average" loot which amounted to 39k salvage + RAQ bonus. Was a fun and rewarding experience that would only be less so if it were nerfed in my opinion.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Per popular demand, I did a second run right now, just finished, 20 minutes ago, it will take about 2 hours to re-encode, this time I'll do it into 720p and hopefully something like 2 hours to upload. Lets just say, I have no clue how DPS people queue for this stuff, I was indeed about to give up and quit, you can see in the video that went to grab food at some point, because I was tired of this nonsense.
(watch the video, I'll post as soon as it uploaded, and the times, you will understand what I mean)
Well so there is a video. I stand corrected. Thank you for actually accepting my challenge and experiencing what solo queueing into FBI is like. It's a little bit different than a 15-minute speedrun, isn't it?
I'd also point out that you entered the dungeon after the team had already cleared 3/4ths of the giants on the hill climb, and that had taken them 18 minutes to do. So the whole dungeon took roughly 50 minutes total. With no team wipes on any of the bosses. Which is comparable to what I have experienced for an above average team.
Also note that you had the highest DPS at the end, even after missing 3/4ths of the giants. Now imagine if, instead of your 16k character, a 13k DPS character had been there instead, and imagine that this 13k DPS character wasn't as familiar with the mechanics as you, leading to the team wiping on one or more of the bosses. It would have taken longer than 50 minutes, definitely, and perhaps much longer.
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someonediesMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,257Arc User
Have your guild help you through your first few runs, if they won't, hmmm... maybe find a new guild? That is what I suggest.
Asking that players find a new guild if they won't do FBI is a big ask. In one of my last solo queue runs, there was a player on the team for whom this was his first time in the dungeon, and he said that his guild would just refuse to do FBI. And it is a very understandable position. There are no endgame rewards in FBI, and in the time that a typical team would take to finish FBI, that same team could do multiple other dungeons or activities that would net as much, or even more, rewards for RAD/salvage. A lot of people at the time when FBI dropped, thought it was a huge mistake, that the time/reward ratio wasn't worth it, and that was when it was the endgame dungeon! It is even more irrelevant now.
(Incidentally, this was the team that took about 2.5 hours to finish FBI. It was one of the worse experiences in that dungeon.)
Lets just say, I have no clue how DPS people queue for this stuff, I was indeed about to give up and quit, you can see in the video that went to grab food at some point, because I was tired of this nonsense.
I will take this as your way of saying "Gee, @chemjeff, maybe you have a point after all."
The question was posed earlier (at some point lost...) in the thread about sharing experience queuing solo for FBI- so here's mine: queue'd once today for RAQ with 17k dps character, got FBI- was a failure at the ascent with 11k gf and 11k dc. Queue'd RAQ and again (luckily!) got FBI- this time had 14k op and 15k dc: had a few (expected) deaths on the ascent, but the entire clear took about 40 mins with no wipes at any point. Oh, and received "average" loot which amounted to 39k salvage + RAQ bonus. Was a fun and rewarding experience that would only be less so if it were nerfed in my opinion.
How long did both attempts take you? Over 1 hour? In that same amount of time, you could have done four ETOS runs and earned just as much RAD/salvage.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Lets just say, I have no clue how DPS people queue for this stuff, I was indeed about to give up and quit, you can see in the video that went to grab food at some point, because I was tired of this nonsense.
I will take this as your way of saying "Gee, @chemjeff, maybe you have a point after all."
No, I've specifically said, watch the video first, and you will understand. Here it is: The issue is that it took me 36 minutes to queue, and 25 to run. Which is sad. Though on reflection, queuing after the daily reset to hit people doing RAQ for AD would have allowed faster Q. https://youtu.be/PlYBeOU3Lko
I've had much much longer guild runs, but the point that you still refuse to go back and understand or even read is that creating a proper learning curve will make the dungeons smoother and faster, not by shifting the problem to other dungeons and creating a gap, but easing up players into more effectiveness.
just no. if randoms can't be bothered to learn how to play, then it's THEIR problem.
Just what does your comment have to do with a PUG? You have zero control over your random group for AD farming and everything the comment said is 100% true. Its not end game, the gear is meh, and people just do it for their daily AD. I had a group that quit because they kept dying (I was OP so I was fine but alone). Its a waste of time the way it is now.
Because it’s a bit of a travesty they have gotten this far without learning to play and function as a team. For this, the blame is shared with Cryptic. There are many design elements within the game which almost encourage the Pack of Hyenas, approach. This is the games greatest failing and permeates through every layer. The Hill Climb is one of those rare teaching moments when it comes to teamwork in this game and should be used accordingly.
Synergy and teamwork need to mean more than being able to time dps writhing a short window. Win, lose, or draw..that’s underwhelming game play on so many levels..
Its a PUG, you can't expect teamwork with people that you have never played with, hell, might be 10 years old as far as you know.
Nerf? Why? Once upon a time I thought FBI was too tough for lower IL teams but me and some guildies ran it by stripping all our gear off except weapons and a summoned companion. It got done. May have had some hiccups here and there but FBI is completely doable with lower level toons.
If people could finish it before, people can finish it now. Devs don't need to waste there time nerfing old content when the focus should be new content.
Maybe you guys just want a "teleport to end chest" scroll to spare yourselves the challenge.
What does your comment have to do with queuing up with a random group? Right now its a waste of time even trying it with randoms as you have no idea if they know how to fight it or not. How is that fun?
I don't think outdated content is much of a priority to the devs, fbi might not be the best to run for progression but it is fun. And thats the whole point of playing a game in the 1st place, I really like running the t3 content over the t1/2 burns. Visually, mspc is a very nice dungeon, 2nd boss is still one of my favorites. we were all new at one point, 2 years ago we had to learn the same mechanics to do the dungeon. With better gear and better weapons more readily available to everyone, its a player issue not the game.
No, I agree with the original comment, it is not fun if you are queued up with randoms and everyone keeps dying on the hill run then just quit the run. Its a complete waste of time. Leave it for a planned group and take it out of the random rotation. Then you can enjoy it all you want with your friends.
I got solo to turtle. Of course, I reset a few times cause I literally woke up 15 mins before doing the run. Prolly coulda soloed turtle too if I had 73 hours to scratch its shoulder to death. So yeah, no, FBI doesn't need a nerf.
Well played. Anyway, you had two very high DPS players on your team, which is unusual.
There are two kinds of people. Those who find solutions and those who seek excuses.
Do you think having two high-DPS players on a random team solo queueing is the usual case?
You know what, it would be ideal if everyone knew exactly about all parts of the game and could get through all content with ease. That would be ideal.
Since we don't live in the ideal world, we live in the real world, we have to accept that not everyone reaches your lofty standard that you set for everyone. Or, further, that not everyone even wants to reach the standard that you set for them.
Because here is what happens if nothing changes. Those same players, whom so many people here just dismiss as terrible horrible newb pugs, will find THEIR OWN solutions in a way that you won't approve of. Instead of just spending 1+ hour struggling in an FBI run, where they may actually learn something about how to play their character, they will instead just run 3-4 ETOS runs, learn nothing about how to play, and get the same amount of rewards, or more, for the time and effort they put in. They will find the path of least resistance around the challenge that you set forth for them. Because if there is one constant in this game dating back all the way from the very beginning, it is that players are NOT broadly motivated by "the challenge of the content", they are much more strongly motivated by the rewards to time ratio. That is why we got random queues in the first place, because the devs wanted to put a stop to the practice of people just running ETOS all day and ignoring all the rest of their content.
If you condescendingly want all these supposedly terrible players to learn their characters, it is in YOUR interest to make it worth their while to do so. Keeping FBI as difficult as it is won't do that. You will get players who built up their characters by completely avoiding FBI/MSP/etc., get to the current endgame dungeon, and then complain when that is too hard, ruining YOUR experience in those dungeons.
If you really want FBI to be a stepping stone to the endgame content, then you need to make it worth their while to do so. Lecturing them on how terrible they are and how they need to L2P won't do that.
So my solution is really to keep the core mechanics of this dungeon intact, keep it as a place where teams really do learn how to develop their characters better, but alter the reward to time ratio in a manner that makes it more worthwhile to actually complete this dungeon. Those that object to this, I suppose, think that lecturing new players will suddenly make them want to spend 1-2 hours struggling in a dungeon. Sorry, but no.
What exactly did I "lose"? @micky1p00 's first video showed a run that was about 50 minutes, which is typical and common, a little above average in my view. Her second video showed a run that was around 30 minutes, which is highly unusual for solo queue in my experience. Other people who have posted here about their experience in solo queue have pointed out that more typically it is a big struggle that takes about 1 hour, or sometimes much longer.
The prevailing attitude around here seems to be "if those dirty filthy pugs struggle in FBI then it's their own damn fault, they should L2P, I don't give a HAMSTER about them anyway". They think lecturing and berating new players will somehow make them want to struggle in a difficult dungeon, rather than providing suitable incentives and rewards relative to the time and effort that they put in. It's this self-indulgent self-absorbed I-got-mine-so-screw-you attitude from the "elite" players which makes me loathe them so much.
I never said FBI is impossible for any team. I never even said FBI is impossible for a team of randoms. Just that it is typically a difficult struggle. Which is true. My video, and @micky1p00's own video shows this.
"Why don't you solo queue for FBI and post a video about it? I don't think you would make it 30 minutes before ragequitting in frustration."
Who was it that said this? If you don't remember, it was you.
and you said this:
"I'm willing to bet that if you finish at all, it takes around 1 hour, even if you go on your main."
and she did it twice, the second time 25 mins and you still have the nerve to act as if you didn't lose? Seriously, give it a rest. Your only defense is to say that the queue gave better than usual? You're saying it doesn't count because people didn't suck enough to qualify for what you think a solo queue experience should be? and you call Janne an elitist and throw around slurs and ivory towers. You act like you the champion of the underdog but in reality you don't seem to like them very much at all.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
This thread piqued my interest in going into dungeons with random groups. As I recalled, FBI wasn't that difficult, but I was spoiled, since I usually went with friends. I decided to test the OP's assessment of the dungeon.
My first run featured a 11,048 iLvl GF tank. There were 2 GWFS and a TR. On the upclimb, the tank died quite a few times, and one GWF left. The GF seemed very aware of his lack of preparedness for this dungeon, and apologized for it. We finished the upclimb as 4 and it took about 10 minutes. By the time we reached Hati, the queue had provided us with a 5th group member. In total, the run took about 35 minutes, start to finish. That was with a tank with barely enough iLVL to enter.
A note about this tank. They realized during the upclimb that they were not prepared for this dungeon. They had only 1 ostorian ring, no everfrost reinforcements, and had not taken any everfrost resist potions, all of which would have made them more durable. They were very accepting of any constructive criticism.
Based on my runs, I didn't see any reason for the dungeon to be nerfed. It seemed to serve its purpose, which was to provide fun and challenging content that inspires those that are running it at the minimum requirements to improve their character to be able to complete the content- and the following content- with greater ease.
It seems to me that the premise of the OP is that this should be a farming dungeon. It can be. It's old enough. But I don't believe it should be only that. There are plenty of dungeons available for farming, there need to be some that provide a challenge for people to prepare them for even more challenging content. If someone can't complete the content, in my opinion, they should take the same mindset as the tank I just ran with of "How Can I Improve". FBI is endgame content for the newer people, providing challenge and motivation for improvement on their skill in playing their class. If they cannot complete it, it is NOT a bad thing, it only means they need more guidance or practice.
"Why don't you solo queue for FBI and post a video about it? I don't think you would make it 30 minutes before ragequitting in frustration."
Who was it that said this? If you don't remember, it was you.
and you said this:
"I'm willing to bet that if you finish at all, it takes around 1 hour, even if you go on your main."
and she did it twice, the second time 25 mins and you still have the nerve to act as if you didn't lose? Seriously, give it a rest. Your only defense is to say that the queue gave better than usual? You're saying it doesn't count because people didn't suck enough to qualify for what you think a solo queue experience should be? and you call Janne an elitist and throw around slurs and ivory towers. You act like you the champion of the underdog but in reality you don't seem to like them very much at all.
Excuse me? Who is the one insulting solo queuers and just telling them to shut up, suck it up and learn to play? It certainly isn't me. I give Janne credit for actually accepting the challenge and doing it. I am surprised that the second one took only 25 minutes. I guarantee that I have done way more solo queueing into FBI than Janne has, and I have never seen one that took 25 minutes, ever, even on my main characters. IT IS unusual. And the OTHER comments from the people participating in this discussion, from those who have solo queued into FBI, not just from me, lend credence to my point of view on this matter. EVEN from those who don't think FBI should be nerfed.
And I DON'T think the solo queue experience should suck for FBI. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT! I don't want it to suck. I would love it if the solo queue experience for FBI of 25 minutes was closer to the norm rather than the exception. Truly, I think for a typical random team, an expected completion time of 30-40 minutes would be pretty good, without sacrificing the core mechanics of the dungeon which makes it a unique challenge.
And yes I think a large number of people around these forums are ivory tower elitists who truly don't give a damn about anyone outside their little circle of friends, and certainly don't give a damn for those filthy pugs who have the gall to use the solo queue system. Well, pug lives matter too.
Ty I thought I was still groggy from not having my morning tea and somehow missed the whole climb. Don't think it was intended but I think that vid brings this back on track and in favour of adjustments to FBI from mpov.
Look at the paingiver click at point of entry. I think there were 3 people who had already left? The climb was already being 3 or 4 man'd? But the only thing taken away from that run was that it was smooth because the DC lmao. People are also saying this is what its like 9/10 times not realising you are only adding fuel to the fire in support of adjustments. The 2nd vid shows what you would expect from again over geared/exp. players.
There is indeed some strong denial going on in this thread. I expected it with my first post here but not on this scale. At this point I feel some are just trolling. Congratulations to those who came out of their comfort zone to exp. what non-premade RAQ is really like with their BIS/mains, however a pool size of 1 or their of means little if you don't take everything into consideration and apparently even when vids like this is are shown, some still cant see what is really happening or refuse to.
This shouldn't be dominated by over geared and exp. players. Get away from "trying to make things better for others by not listening to them" This is what people have complained devs have/are doing... hypocrisy/double standards. Honestly I should have known I was wasting my time when I was told FBI is THE preference for non premade RAQ.
/Slow clap ..........
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
What exactly did I "lose"? @micky1p00 's first video showed a run that was about 50 minutes, which is typical and common, a little above average in my view. Her second video showed a run that was around 30 minutes, which is highly unusual for solo queue in my experience. Other people who have posted here about their experience in solo queue have pointed out that more typically it is a big struggle that takes about 1 hour, or sometimes much longer.
The prevailing attitude around here seems to be "if those dirty filthy pugs struggle in FBI then it's their own damn fault, they should L2P, I don't give a HAMSTER about them anyway". They think lecturing and berating new players will somehow make them want to struggle in a difficult dungeon, rather than providing suitable incentives and rewards relative to the time and effort that they put in. It's this self-indulgent self-absorbed I-got-mine-so-screw-you attitude from the "elite" players which makes me loathe them so much.
I never said FBI is impossible for any team. I never even said FBI is impossible for a team of randoms. Just that it is typically a difficult struggle. Which is true. My video, and @micky1p00's own video shows this.
1. First video: The instance was open, only two people were in the pain-giver and instance, meaning at least 3 quit, those all 18 minutes could have been waiting for reinforcement, or to kick, or they could have been playing strip poker, the only fact and not an assumption is MY run, and my run took 33 minutes for the first one, and 24 for the second (more or less).
2. As I've said, no matter how the run will be you will find something.
3. Neither of the runs were a struggle or difficult, even if the first was a wipe it still wouldn't be a struggle, just a reset and try a gain. How is my video proves it was a struggle? Was there any doubt for a moment that it will be completed?
4. Those runs like the above are not as uncommon as people make them, yes, there is variance, but it's mainly the people who just quit fault and not even giving the dungeon a try. Many people bring the minimum to have a good chance, regardless of randomness, so the joiness only need to stay and try their best. Many do, some do not, some just leave if they see a dungeon they do not like.
5. I believe that MMO is not only about solo playing and farming. The enjoyment of the game is to play with others, help each other, do content. People who reduce everything to only the math of gain and loss in their "farm" should stick to single player games.
6. Who lecturing and berating new players? New players that were with me got a full explanation of the dungeon and the mechanics. Actually I'm sure that most here took more new players to dungeon and helped them, guided and wiped as many times as needed than you.
7. Why it is so bad to learn how to play? Why is that the content needs to be dumbed down, and not people encouraged to learn new things or improve? When something new comes out, we all do not learn it? Why is the assumption that new players are some empty headed fools, that can't learn a dungeon, so they need it nerfed? I've recently read most of Flowers for Algernon (to depressing to finish right now) and every time the way you treat new players reminds me that, not in the bullying way, but in the 'challanged' aspect.
8. Here is the blind rage, and the moral high ground. 7 pages of waste of time, because one person think that he speaks for the 'weak and poor. When run dry of any actual argument, it is back to demagoguery, with some generalizations and insults. How about actually do what others do, and help players, do not solo Q, but make the minimal party that can do it, for example OP + DPS, OP + AC, DPS + OP, and have 3 newer players, show them around, explain the mechanics, get them through, be patient and do not cry that the run takes an hour, so what it takes an hour, your precious AD farming will not die if you help someone else. They one day will help forward, and the community will improve.
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checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
I do not deny that either MSP or FBI are a struggle in RAQ. But, the issue I have is with nerfing these two (or FBI) to accomodate the new players. RAQ is advanced, not beginner, not intermediate. I would be for moving them to REQ, even. UES waiting at the end of FBI or MSP, yes please!
There have been so many posts about nerfing recently, as if the game is unplayable as a new player, or so unhinged and imbalanced, that anyone who does not have roots going back to beta are screwed.
Examine me in game. I have no loyal gear. I do not run +5 companion gear. I don't have +5 legend rings. I do not have an army of leadership, alchemy, or whatever alts. I use con artist as my main companion. I built my GF from NOTHING since Mid May 2018. I grinded out all the campaigns and all the boons in 3months. I targetted gear, and saved up for the big sale in June so that I could get a couple extra things, things anyone can get. I grinded the HAMSTER out of 2x professions and made AD that could get me stuff (without any mastercrafting). I itemized what was needed to get better, looking at functionality for a build that could be useful in end game as soon as possible. I didn't chase a 15Mil legend mount when a 200k one works just fine. I didn't try and squeeze out every last bit of dps or tankiness, because I honestly don't care enough to put in the effort. I'd rather run a foundry with some zany authors.
But, I already knew how to play. I know what to do as a GF. I had to learn CR. I made the mistake of dodging the IBS attack on 2nd boss in CR, and no one on the party knew why the boss went into spin right away. Neither did I. Our party failed (all high TIL). So, I went on forums. I read. I listened to guild mates. I watched videos from Unforgiven and others. I learned what to do, and I adjusted. I changed my game play to get better. Because I sucked in CR.
It was the same for FBI. I still get caught by Rune master and then the red circle, but I attempt to get better. I learned how to aggro out Drufi, how not to use wide AoEs, how to target single, how to go slow until first Call of Winter, how to preserve ice, how to dodge her 3xcharge, all while watching my party mates to make sure they don't get caught, and are buffed well. I had to adjust to what setup of encounters worked best for the boss based on what I needed to do to make the party successful. Same for CR. Same for mSP. Same for TONG and CODG.
I have learned more from my failures in this game than the easy successes. In fact, it has given me more resolve to improve so that whenever the next gear progression comes out and the new wrinkle that the boss and dungeon throws at me, I will be willing to do I can. And I find that it is more enjoyable when I learn.
I do not believe that RQs of any type are the place to learn HOW to do the dungeon. I learn with my friends. I do not learn with strangers. I learn how to play by quietly listening to others regale how they succeeded or failed in a dungeon, then I ask them some questions. Usually, they are open and honest. That is what being a friend is in game. Also, unlike RQs, everyone speaks the language I speak, so there is no loss of commuication, and since we already have trust, I do not have to question their motive. Because RQs circumvent the relationship and exchange the relationship needed to learn for the goal of urAD and seals based on difficulty of dungeon grouping, it is not the place to learn. But learning is necessary. It is essential.
Calling for a nerf to these dungeons is not the answer. When I say, learn, I mean it in the way that gives you enjoyment, especially with friends. I happen to be in my opinion the best guild in the game. Yes, Micky1poo is the guild leader, but she and all the rest are open, helpful, generous with time and advice...sometimes too generous. And they just know what they need to do to learn. Sharp and RJ...god how many...they just figure stuff out. And I get to glean what I want that makes me happy and still useful. Then after learning, I can queue up for stuff with randoms. I don't queue up for RAQ unless I think that I have about 1 hour of time to play. I don't expect a quick 20-30min run even. I RAQed into MSP, sometimes we fail, sometimes we win. Oh well. I did not waste the thirty minutes trying to get to first boss. I learned how to solo tank stuff that I had never had to do before...etc. I also learned how to play with players that do not know what to do. I don't correct. I don't pm and say 'git gud.' I just adjust my play to see if what I CAN do with my current build will make the party successful. Example, recent FBI RAQ had a dpser that always got stuck in the ice. I didn't berate, or pm, or call out. Maybe that player's computer stinks and can't see it. Thing is, what can I do? So, I start watching during ice, and solo targetted that player on ice so that they were unstuck. We almost wiped, but I had to learn to adjust. I can do that. My build and play style allow me. If I think the play is so poor that it makes it impossible for me to adjust (like a dpser running ahead in mSP and pulling everything when the party is not ready), I leave. Yes, in an ADVANCED queue there is a certain standard for play that I expect. The players (not based on TIL) should at least play at an advanced level. They expect it from me as their GF; I expect it from them in their role. If their play makes it impossible to finish, oh well. I also am of the opinion that my build cannot help them. In a high CR premade (not REQ), I was asked to setup a certain way and run a certain way, so that the OP could do something. I just said, I am not the right build for this party, and left. Oh well. In RAQs, there is no choice, so as a player I have an expectation that the person putting oneself in the queue is not learning the base things, but already knows what to do...thus...advanced.
Am I part of the problem? Eh, maybe! I, like most in the game, don't have lots of time to do everything. So, I desire to get to the 100k as fast as I can, which are the 4 RQs. But, I also find the lack of variety in the actual RQs popping to make it a mind numbing game experience anyway. I usually skip RAQs and REQs because 1) I don't have an hour to give at one time, 2) I want to play other dungeons anyway or other content to keep me sane and fresh from any grind. I am here for entertainment and enjoyment based whatever voluntary time I will have for the GAME.
Will nerfing FBI solve the problem? No. The issue is too complex to be reduced to: more rewards, less time.
What is your solution? I have argued elsewhere on what would, in my limited opinion help with the issue. And of course, there were disagreements to it. But, hey, its a forum. That is fine. My every hope is always on the developers understanding that the maxim that you cannot please all the people all the time is true, but the structure and long term planning of the game should be the goal to please all the different kinds of players (new, beta, elite, pvpers). The structure and goal of RQs is kinda meh in my view. The discontinous nature of Neverwinter in its history (mod 1-5, 6*, 7-12a, 12b-14, 15ff) just makes it perplexing as the focus seems to shift. I want continuity where all the dungeons in difficulty and campaign and content and rewards MAKE sense...in parallel, where modules flow into each other. A call for a nerf (unless it is not WAI) focuses on the symptom not the problem.
Just to add my experience: several days a week I solo q random advanced on a DC, tank or primarily support-built CW. Most of the FBI runs I encounter personally are generally speaking similar to what Janne posted.
I typically see a rocky start with picky people dropping repeatedly, often milling in and out while 3 or 4 people work up the hill. It can take a bit, but after you're well on your way up the ascent, subsequent DPS who join are more likely to stay. If you're waiting on a tank, it helps to kite the giants (any class with a dodge can make do) so you still make progress while you wait.
If folks are open to constructive criticism (sometimes, not always... often language barriers), then we can share some learning along the way too. The clear time is largely dependent on the experience level of the tank, although overgeared dps and/or DC can compensate a fair bit.
My toons are 16k+, and I'm almost always the top ilvl in the group (I peek), and my typical completion times are 30-40min. I can't remember the last time I spent over an hour inside. Occasionally you get a solid grouping and you clear in 25min.
You know what, it would be ideal if everyone knew exactly about all parts of the game and could get through all content with ease. That would be ideal.
No this will be the opposite of ideal, this will be why people quit games. It is sad that people do not understand this.
Because here is what happens if nothing changes. Those same players, whom so many people here just dismiss as terrible horrible newb pugs, will find THEIR OWN solutions in a way that you won't approve of. Instead of just spending 1+ hour struggling in an FBI run, where they may actually learn something about how to play their character, they will instead just run 3-4 ETOS runs, learn nothing about how to play, and get the same amount of rewards, or more, for the time and effort they put in. They will find the path of least resistance around the challenge that you set forth for them. Because if there is one constant in this game dating back all the way from the very beginning, it is that players are NOT broadly motivated by "the challenge of the content", they are much more strongly motivated by the rewards to time ratio. That is why we got random queues in the first place, because the devs wanted to put a stop to the practice of people just running ETOS all day and ignoring all the rest of their content.
Then they will be stuck in etos for eternity, if that is their choice. But the fact is that this is not what happens, people want to go forward into cradle, tomb, CR etc.. And people do find solutions, here is the simplest one, not to soloQ. I know, maybe do that horrible thing, and join a guild that helps and make groups there, or some custom channel, or god forbid, that evil thing, friends, and enjoy the most important premise of MMOs, no, not the endless mind numbing grind, but the multiplayer part, where other people are not an obstacle but help.
If you condescendingly want all these supposedly terrible players to learn their characters, it is in YOUR interest to make it worth their while to do so. Keeping FBI as difficult as it is won't do that. You will get players who built up their characters by completely avoiding FBI/MSP/etc., get to the current endgame dungeon, and then complain when that is too hard, ruining YOUR experience in those dungeons.
Why you keep putting insults in other people words, and insult them on the way? What condescending in creating a linear learning curve, or at least not a gap between tomb and FBI?
If you really want FBI to be a stepping stone to the endgame content, then you need to make it worth their while to do so. Lecturing them on how terrible they are and how they need to L2P won't do that.
For some learning and improving is a worthwhile pursuit, gratification in completing a challenge. Most games, actually work this way, you don't get monetary reward for completing a level in packman or tetris (etc..) If someone doesn't find stepping into end-game as worthwhile, why to even strive for it in the first place?
lecturing new players will suddenly make them want to spend 1-2 hours struggling in a dungeon. Sorry, but no.
And who is lecturing new players? You are not a new player, you should have known better than first ask for help with your OP and not to ask for a nerf for a dungeon because you think you are struggling. And other people actually running with new players to help them, or doing guides, or videos or what not, to help out. People provide more means than were ever available for new players to succeed, there is minimal responsibility to use it
Comments
I think that many people don't realize something about FBI. That dungeon is basically the entry level dungeon for mechanics. Many solo queue groups will have to actually play the dungeon (at least) somewhat correct. Avoid meteor slams on the hill, try not to get the DOT from the first boss, kill the turtle quick enough, and do the Drufi mechanics for a smooth run. Even with 5 toons barely meeting the requirement, that can easily be done. If you manage to do those very simple things, you will be successful. That is not difficult whatsoever. If people don't follow the mechanics, well, they might have a rough time.
Also, if you queue for FBI without knowing the mechanics (or being unable to do them), you are basically lowering your team's chance of success by 20% (only for the lowest teams). No, that isn't some actual math thing. I am just saying, you are giving your team a huge disadvantage by going in without the [real] requirement. You need to know what you are playing (dungeon/class/role) and how to play it = real requirement. Don't expect to get carried. If you get lucky with a good squad, it doesn't matter what you do. You can just follow and watch. Everyone needs to learn the dungeon, don't be afraid to try your first run, but don't do it in solo queue. Going in with zero understanding/practice with mechanics of the game is fine with your friends, but why put that unnecessary burden on strangers though? Have your guild help you through your first few runs, if they won't, hmmm... maybe find a new guild? That is what I suggest.
If you are struggling to complete some content, watch some videos, read some guides, tweak some things on your character, or ASK FOR HELP!!! I am in many different discord chats. I can't remember a single time that a player said "is this good?" or "i need help deciding..." and didn't get any help. Usually, someone that knows what they are talking about replies and gives a sufficient answer. Instead, some players come to the forums asking the developers to nerf the game for them...
Ask for help. Everything in this game is a cake walk when done the right way (and there are many different "correct/viable" ways).
I personally find almost all my FBI solo queue experiences are like this. It takes a little bit longer, but is totally manageable.
9/10 solo queue runs are like the one micky1p00 posted here. That has been my experience with it. I usually queue with my CW for solo queues instead of my DC. I think it is good practice for timing rotations and adapting to random players, and it is more fun!
BTW, no, I didn't spend the time reading the entire "Is It Time To Nerf Cloak Tower Yet?" thread, so please don't flame me for that.
Is that vid the whole run?
I am pretty disappointed if so.
Lets just say, I have no clue how DPS people queue for this stuff, I was indeed about to give up and quit, you can see in the video that went to grab food at some point, because I was tired of this nonsense.
(watch the video, I'll post as soon as it uploaded, and the times, you will understand what I mean)
I'd also point out that you entered the dungeon after the team had already cleared 3/4ths of the giants on the hill climb, and that had taken them 18 minutes to do. So the whole dungeon took roughly 50 minutes total. With no team wipes on any of the bosses. Which is comparable to what I have experienced for an above average team.
Also note that you had the highest DPS at the end, even after missing 3/4ths of the giants. Now imagine if, instead of your 16k character, a 13k DPS character had been there instead, and imagine that this 13k DPS character wasn't as familiar with the mechanics as you, leading to the team wiping on one or more of the bosses. It would have taken longer than 50 minutes, definitely, and perhaps much longer.
Dead🔪(Incidentally, this was the team that took about 2.5 hours to finish FBI. It was one of the worse experiences in that dungeon.)
Here it is:
The issue is that it took me 36 minutes to queue, and 25 to run. Which is sad. Though on reflection, queuing after the daily reset to hit people doing RAQ for AD would have allowed faster Q.
I've had much much longer guild runs, but the point that you still refuse to go back and understand or even read is that creating a proper learning curve will make the dungeons smoother and faster, not by shifting the problem to other dungeons and creating a gap, but easing up players into more effectiveness.
There are two kinds of people. Those who find solutions and those who seek excuses.
You know what, it would be ideal if everyone knew exactly about all parts of the game and could get through all content with ease. That would be ideal.
Since we don't live in the ideal world, we live in the real world, we have to accept that not everyone reaches your lofty standard that you set for everyone. Or, further, that not everyone even wants to reach the standard that you set for them.
Because here is what happens if nothing changes. Those same players, whom so many people here just dismiss as terrible horrible newb pugs, will find THEIR OWN solutions in a way that you won't approve of. Instead of just spending 1+ hour struggling in an FBI run, where they may actually learn something about how to play their character, they will instead just run 3-4 ETOS runs, learn nothing about how to play, and get the same amount of rewards, or more, for the time and effort they put in. They will find the path of least resistance around the challenge that you set forth for them. Because if there is one constant in this game dating back all the way from the very beginning, it is that players are NOT broadly motivated by "the challenge of the content", they are much more strongly motivated by the rewards to time ratio. That is why we got random queues in the first place, because the devs wanted to put a stop to the practice of people just running ETOS all day and ignoring all the rest of their content.
If you condescendingly want all these supposedly terrible players to learn their characters, it is in YOUR interest to make it worth their while to do so. Keeping FBI as difficult as it is won't do that. You will get players who built up their characters by completely avoiding FBI/MSP/etc., get to the current endgame dungeon, and then complain when that is too hard, ruining YOUR experience in those dungeons.
If you really want FBI to be a stepping stone to the endgame content, then you need to make it worth their while to do so. Lecturing them on how terrible they are and how they need to L2P won't do that.
So my solution is really to keep the core mechanics of this dungeon intact, keep it as a place where teams really do learn how to develop their characters better, but alter the reward to time ratio in a manner that makes it more worthwhile to actually complete this dungeon. Those that object to this, I suppose, think that lecturing new players will suddenly make them want to spend 1-2 hours struggling in a dungeon. Sorry, but no.
The prevailing attitude around here seems to be "if those dirty filthy pugs struggle in FBI then it's their own damn fault, they should L2P, I don't give a HAMSTER about them anyway". They think lecturing and berating new players will somehow make them want to struggle in a difficult dungeon, rather than providing suitable incentives and rewards relative to the time and effort that they put in. It's this self-indulgent self-absorbed I-got-mine-so-screw-you attitude from the "elite" players which makes me loathe them so much.
I never said FBI is impossible for any team. I never even said FBI is impossible for a team of randoms. Just that it is typically a difficult struggle. Which is true. My video, and @micky1p00's own video shows this.
Who was it that said this? If you don't remember, it was you.
and you said this:
"I'm willing to bet that if you finish at all, it takes around 1 hour, even if you go on your main."
and she did it twice, the second time 25 mins and you still have the nerve to act as if you didn't lose? Seriously, give it a rest. Your only defense is to say that the queue gave better than usual? You're saying it doesn't count because people didn't suck enough to qualify for what you think a solo queue experience should be? and you call Janne an elitist and throw around slurs and ivory towers. You act like you the champion of the underdog but in reality you don't seem to like them very much at all.
My first run featured a 11,048 iLvl GF tank. There were 2 GWFS and a TR. On the upclimb, the tank died quite a few times, and one GWF left. The GF seemed very aware of his lack of preparedness for this dungeon, and apologized for it. We finished the upclimb as 4 and it took about 10 minutes. By the time we reached Hati, the queue had provided us with a 5th group member.
In total, the run took about 35 minutes, start to finish. That was with a tank with barely enough iLVL to enter.
A note about this tank. They realized during the upclimb that they were not prepared for this dungeon. They had only 1 ostorian ring, no everfrost reinforcements, and had not taken any everfrost resist potions, all of which would have made them more durable. They were very accepting of any constructive criticism.
Based on my runs, I didn't see any reason for the dungeon to be nerfed. It seemed to serve its purpose, which was to provide fun and challenging content that inspires those that are running it at the minimum requirements to improve their character to be able to complete the content- and the following content- with greater ease.
It seems to me that the premise of the OP is that this should be a farming dungeon. It can be. It's old enough. But I don't believe it should be only that. There are plenty of dungeons available for farming, there need to be some that provide a challenge for people to prepare them for even more challenging content. If someone can't complete the content, in my opinion, they should take the same mindset as the tank I just ran with of "How Can I Improve". FBI is endgame content for the newer people, providing challenge and motivation for improvement on their skill in playing their class. If they cannot complete it, it is NOT a bad thing, it only means they need more guidance or practice.
And I DON'T think the solo queue experience should suck for FBI. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT! I don't want it to suck. I would love it if the solo queue experience for FBI of 25 minutes was closer to the norm rather than the exception. Truly, I think for a typical random team, an expected completion time of 30-40 minutes would be pretty good, without sacrificing the core mechanics of the dungeon which makes it a unique challenge.
And yes I think a large number of people around these forums are ivory tower elitists who truly don't give a damn about anyone outside their little circle of friends, and certainly don't give a damn for those filthy pugs who have the gall to use the solo queue system. Well, pug lives matter too.
Look at the paingiver click at point of entry. I think there were 3 people who had already left? The climb was already being 3 or 4 man'd? But the only thing taken away from that run was that it was smooth because the DC lmao. People are also saying this is what its like 9/10 times not realising you are only adding fuel to the fire in support of adjustments. The 2nd vid shows what you would expect from again over geared/exp. players.
There is indeed some strong denial going on in this thread. I expected it with my first post here but not on this scale. At this point I feel some are just trolling. Congratulations to those who came out of their comfort zone to exp. what non-premade RAQ is really like with their BIS/mains, however a pool size of 1 or their of means little if you don't take everything into consideration and apparently even when vids like this is are shown, some still cant see what is really happening or refuse to.
This shouldn't be dominated by over geared and exp. players. Get away from "trying to make things better for others by not listening to them" This is what people have complained devs have/are doing... hypocrisy/double standards. Honestly I should have known I was wasting my time when I was told FBI is THE preference for non premade RAQ.
/Slow clap ..........
2. As I've said, no matter how the run will be you will find something.
3. Neither of the runs were a struggle or difficult, even if the first was a wipe it still wouldn't be a struggle, just a reset and try a gain. How is my video proves it was a struggle? Was there any doubt for a moment that it will be completed?
4. Those runs like the above are not as uncommon as people make them, yes, there is variance, but it's mainly the people who just quit fault and not even giving the dungeon a try. Many people bring the minimum to have a good chance, regardless of randomness, so the joiness only need to stay and try their best. Many do, some do not, some just leave if they see a dungeon they do not like.
5. I believe that MMO is not only about solo playing and farming. The enjoyment of the game is to play with others, help each other, do content. People who reduce everything to only the math of gain and loss in their "farm" should stick to single player games.
6. Who lecturing and berating new players? New players that were with me got a full explanation of the dungeon and the mechanics. Actually I'm sure that most here took more new players to dungeon and helped them, guided and wiped as many times as needed than you.
7. Why it is so bad to learn how to play? Why is that the content needs to be dumbed down, and not people encouraged to learn new things or improve? When something new comes out, we all do not learn it? Why is the assumption that new players are some empty headed fools, that can't learn a dungeon, so they need it nerfed? I've recently read most of Flowers for Algernon (to depressing to finish right now) and every time the way you treat new players reminds me that, not in the bullying way, but in the 'challanged' aspect.
8. Here is the blind rage, and the moral high ground. 7 pages of waste of time, because one person think that he speaks for the 'weak and poor. When run dry of any actual argument, it is back to demagoguery, with some generalizations and insults.
How about actually do what others do, and help players, do not solo Q, but make the minimal party that can do it, for example OP + DPS, OP + AC, DPS + OP, and have 3 newer players, show them around, explain the mechanics, get them through, be patient and do not cry that the run takes an hour, so what it takes an hour, your precious AD farming will not die if you help someone else. They one day will help forward, and the community will improve.
There have been so many posts about nerfing recently, as if the game is unplayable as a new player, or so unhinged and imbalanced, that anyone who does not have roots going back to beta are screwed.
Examine me in game. I have no loyal gear. I do not run +5 companion gear. I don't have +5 legend rings. I do not have an army of leadership, alchemy, or whatever alts. I use con artist as my main companion. I built my GF from NOTHING since Mid May 2018. I grinded out all the campaigns and all the boons in 3months. I targetted gear, and saved up for the big sale in June so that I could get a couple extra things, things anyone can get. I grinded the HAMSTER out of 2x professions and made AD that could get me stuff (without any mastercrafting). I itemized what was needed to get better, looking at functionality for a build that could be useful in end game as soon as possible. I didn't chase a 15Mil legend mount when a 200k one works just fine. I didn't try and squeeze out every last bit of dps or tankiness, because I honestly don't care enough to put in the effort. I'd rather run a foundry with some zany authors.
But, I already knew how to play. I know what to do as a GF. I had to learn CR. I made the mistake of dodging the IBS attack on 2nd boss in CR, and no one on the party knew why the boss went into spin right away. Neither did I. Our party failed (all high TIL). So, I went on forums. I read. I listened to guild mates. I watched videos from Unforgiven and others. I learned what to do, and I adjusted. I changed my game play to get better. Because I sucked in CR.
It was the same for FBI. I still get caught by Rune master and then the red circle, but I attempt to get better. I learned how to aggro out Drufi, how not to use wide AoEs, how to target single, how to go slow until first Call of Winter, how to preserve ice, how to dodge her 3xcharge, all while watching my party mates to make sure they don't get caught, and are buffed well. I had to adjust to what setup of encounters worked best for the boss based on what I needed to do to make the party successful. Same for CR. Same for mSP. Same for TONG and CODG.
I have learned more from my failures in this game than the easy successes. In fact, it has given me more resolve to improve so that whenever the next gear progression comes out and the new wrinkle that the boss and dungeon throws at me, I will be willing to do I can. And I find that it is more enjoyable when I learn.
I do not believe that RQs of any type are the place to learn HOW to do the dungeon. I learn with my friends. I do not learn with strangers. I learn how to play by quietly listening to others regale how they succeeded or failed in a dungeon, then I ask them some questions. Usually, they are open and honest. That is what being a friend is in game. Also, unlike RQs, everyone speaks the language I speak, so there is no loss of commuication, and since we already have trust, I do not have to question their motive. Because RQs circumvent the relationship and exchange the relationship needed to learn for the goal of urAD and seals based on difficulty of dungeon grouping, it is not the place to learn. But learning is necessary. It is essential.
Calling for a nerf to these dungeons is not the answer. When I say, learn, I mean it in the way that gives you enjoyment, especially with friends. I happen to be in my opinion the best guild in the game. Yes, Micky1poo is the guild leader, but she and all the rest are open, helpful, generous with time and advice...sometimes too generous. And they just know what they need to do to learn. Sharp and RJ...god how many...they just figure stuff out. And I get to glean what I want that makes me happy and still useful. Then after learning, I can queue up for stuff with randoms. I don't queue up for RAQ unless I think that I have about 1 hour of time to play. I don't expect a quick 20-30min run even. I RAQed into MSP, sometimes we fail, sometimes we win. Oh well. I did not waste the thirty minutes trying to get to first boss. I learned how to solo tank stuff that I had never had to do before...etc. I also learned how to play with players that do not know what to do. I don't correct. I don't pm and say 'git gud.' I just adjust my play to see if what I CAN do with my current build will make the party successful. Example, recent FBI RAQ had a dpser that always got stuck in the ice. I didn't berate, or pm, or call out. Maybe that player's computer stinks and can't see it. Thing is, what can I do? So, I start watching during ice, and solo targetted that player on ice so that they were unstuck. We almost wiped, but I had to learn to adjust. I can do that. My build and play style allow me. If I think the play is so poor that it makes it impossible for me to adjust (like a dpser running ahead in mSP and pulling everything when the party is not ready), I leave. Yes, in an ADVANCED queue there is a certain standard for play that I expect. The players (not based on TIL) should at least play at an advanced level. They expect it from me as their GF; I expect it from them in their role. If their play makes it impossible to finish, oh well. I also am of the opinion that my build cannot help them. In a high CR premade (not REQ), I was asked to setup a certain way and run a certain way, so that the OP could do something. I just said, I am not the right build for this party, and left. Oh well. In RAQs, there is no choice, so as a player I have an expectation that the person putting oneself in the queue is not learning the base things, but already knows what to do...thus...advanced.
Am I part of the problem? Eh, maybe! I, like most in the game, don't have lots of time to do everything. So, I desire to get to the 100k as fast as I can, which are the 4 RQs. But, I also find the lack of variety in the actual RQs popping to make it a mind numbing game experience anyway. I usually skip RAQs and REQs because 1) I don't have an hour to give at one time, 2) I want to play other dungeons anyway or other content to keep me sane and fresh from any grind. I am here for entertainment and enjoyment based whatever voluntary time I will have for the GAME.
Will nerfing FBI solve the problem? No. The issue is too complex to be reduced to: more rewards, less time.
What is your solution? I have argued elsewhere on what would, in my limited opinion help with the issue. And of course, there were disagreements to it. But, hey, its a forum. That is fine. My every hope is always on the developers understanding that the maxim that you cannot please all the people all the time is true, but the structure and long term planning of the game should be the goal to please all the different kinds of players (new, beta, elite, pvpers). The structure and goal of RQs is kinda meh in my view. The discontinous nature of Neverwinter in its history (mod 1-5, 6*, 7-12a, 12b-14, 15ff) just makes it perplexing as the focus seems to shift. I want continuity where all the dungeons in difficulty and campaign and content and rewards MAKE sense...in parallel, where modules flow into each other. A call for a nerf (unless it is not WAI) focuses on the symptom not the problem.
Anyway, cheers all!
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
I typically see a rocky start with picky people dropping repeatedly, often milling in and out while 3 or 4 people work up the hill. It can take a bit, but after you're well on your way up the ascent, subsequent DPS who join are more likely to stay. If you're waiting on a tank, it helps to kite the giants (any class with a dodge can make do) so you still make progress while you wait.
If folks are open to constructive criticism (sometimes, not always... often language barriers), then we can share some learning along the way too. The clear time is largely dependent on the experience level of the tank, although overgeared dps and/or DC can compensate a fair bit.
My toons are 16k+, and I'm almost always the top ilvl in the group (I peek), and my typical completion times are 30-40min. I can't remember the last time I spent over an hour inside. Occasionally you get a solid grouping and you clear in 25min.
How about make it harder with better loots or updated rewards!
And people do find solutions, here is the simplest one, not to soloQ. I know, maybe do that horrible thing, and join a guild that helps and make groups there, or some custom channel, or god forbid, that evil thing, friends, and enjoy the most important premise of MMOs, no, not the endless mind numbing grind, but the multiplayer part, where other people are not an obstacle but help. Why you keep putting insults in other people words, and insult them on the way?
What condescending in creating a linear learning curve, or at least not a gap between tomb and FBI? For some learning and improving is a worthwhile pursuit, gratification in completing a challenge. Most games, actually work this way, you don't get monetary reward for completing a level in packman or tetris (etc..)
If someone doesn't find stepping into end-game as worthwhile, why to even strive for it in the first place? And who is lecturing new players? You are not a new player, you should have known better than first ask for help with your OP and not to ask for a nerf for a dungeon because you think you are struggling. And other people actually running with new players to help them, or doing guides, or videos or what not, to help out. People provide more means than were ever available for new players to succeed, there is minimal responsibility to use it