They say a picture paints a thousand words and yours truly illustrate what this discussion is about.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,158Arc User
Isn't the incentive in doing FBI to learn it and its mechanics so that they can go on to do To9G and CR?
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
If you are struggling with something in life, and other people clearly aren't, maybe it is time to change something that you are doing.
Blaming the content is silly. Plenty of people are doing the solo queue in FBI, and they are doing fine. Why are they able to do it? There must be a better way.
Sure, everyone gets a bad team that fails sometimes. Some teams are supposed to fail. They are unprepared and have more to learn. That isn't a bad thing. They just need to focus their attention to becoming better. Most of the people here are happy to help players become better. Most of the time, (to help people) I just send them links to the work of the other people commenting here. Nobody here is saying "get good scrub", you guys keep bringing that up and it is clearly false. There are so many people willing to help others in Neverwinter, and Neverwinter is already such an easy game to play.
I saw a CW in a solo RAQ today using Arcane Singularity at Haiti. I am not going to list all the things I saw him doing wrong, you get the point. He didn't belong in FBI, not yet. So what? That isn't a bad thing. All you can do is point people in the right direction. If they still fail, that isn't someone else's fault.
If everyone was struggling with the solo queue FBI experience then you guys would have a point. You don't though. Plenty of people do it just fine. FBI is in a good spot to be a wake up call for many players. They need to learn mechanics, read about the game, and figure out the better ways to play. FBI is not some super hard dungeon. 99% of that dungeon is common sense. The mechanics that aren't, can easily be described to someone who is new.
If people are doing something, you probably can too!
Isn't the incentive in doing FBI to learn it and its mechanics so that they can go on to do To9G and CR?
There is no incentive to learn FBI mechanics as it stands; none of the bosses need the climb mechanics. As already stated by several people opposed to adjustments, players can just ignore FBI and move on to To9G/CR. Take a look at the graphs; there is no reason the harshness of the mechanics can not be toned down or introduced steadily while still allowing players to experience such things.
There is no incentive to learn FBI mechanics as it stands; none of the bosses need the climb mechanics.
None of the bosses need the clim mechanic => Somewhat not true I myself talked a lot about that climb "mechanic", but explaining that it's not like a boss mechanic that you need to do in order to pass it. It's more about understanding how to play with a team, and optimize your own character in a dungeon.
It's about movement, placement, rotations, coordination, timing, synergy. Climbing the hill is not a mechanic like the Soul counter in Ras Nsi, unique for a boss, climbing the hill is a mechanic that you are needed to understand for EVERY endgame content as a group. And not only for the hill in FBI, but for every group of mobs in higher dungeon, and every boss. What you learn in terms of gameplay and teamplay when you're in a team that struggle in FBI is what you need to have as basis for higher content.
As already stated by several people opposed to adjustments, players can just ignore FBI and move on to To9G/CR. Take a look at the graphs; there is no reason the harshness of the mechanics can not be toned down or introduced steadily while still allowing players to experience such things.
Several things: Players can just ignore FBI and move to tong/cr. That is true. However, if these players just ignore FBI and move to this content in random queue, it's an auto fail, and that's totally normal. Players that skip content A and come freshly against content B that's way harder, without knowing a thing about endgame content are goind to fail. and it's a good thing as they're not prepared at all to do it.
So what people do when they continuously fail a dungeon with every random queue they're doing? 3 things: - Get back to the content they skipped, thinking "Maybe if this dungeon is here it's to teach me something about the game? Maybe this dungeon is an intermediate content in terms of difficulty and I should try it before going to that high dungeon I keep failing to complete?". This should lead to a simple research on internet, get builds, informations on buff - Get themselves a run in the dungeon they want with guilds/friends willing to help him learn and understand. And if they do that, they'll be able to do FBI after that without problem. You noticed that everyone in a guild don't struggle to pass FBI. This hill is a wall for players that didn't have the chance to have such friends to help them, and an indicator of their current understanding of their own class and how to teamplay. - Come to the forum and post nerf threads
By the way, chemjeff's graphes are not correct in my opinion. CN-FBI gap is lower, and FBI-MSP and MSP-TONG gap are way higher.
As an OP I get frustrated because that hill is a nightmare and if I get a good group then it is ok but most players have never done fbi and they just leave which annoys me so much instead of staying and doing the hill. So my thing is why should I try when they don't want to imo item lvl should be increased on fbi.
We should nerf the "nerf dungeons" mentality! This is not Wow!
Power creep is too big. Content is already easy for premades.
Hard dungeon? -Join a guild! Use TS/Discord with your guildmates and friends and find out a strategy! -Level your character! The recommended dungeon Item levels won't guarantee success! In fact recommended IL = "your HAMSTER can be carried in this dungeon"!
We should nerf the "nerf dungeons" mentality! This is not Wow!
Power creep is too big. Content is already easy for premades.
Hard dungeon? -Join a guild! Use TS/Discord with your guildmates and friends and find out a strategy! -Level your character! The recommended dungeon Item levels won't guarantee success! In fact recommended IL = "your HAMSTER can be carried in this dungeon"!
I agree with most of this but "Use TS/Discord " is not needed. Many do not want to do that and it is not needed and impling that it is will cause an even worse exodus from this game.
EDIT ESP Considiring that dungeons like FBI is doable with guildies at 10k IL (we have carried a 10k op tank through fbi so it is doable) NO VOICE SERVER USED. The true solution is a return of master/normal version of dungeons giving people a chance to learn the mechanics in a safe environment then it will be less of a shock. FBI is not hard if you do not aproach it as a dps race to finish in less than 30 min
Post edited by mynaam on
There are more than BIS players in this game RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ???? FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,158Arc User
They could always gate a dungeon behind a successful run of the previous dungeon.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Problem of FBI is a Everfrost. And you can join this dungeon without resistance.
I thing that need just a big RED worning if you haven't enough frost resistance for dungeon. just like in highest locations when you joined it on low level.
yeah, mobs/boss mechanic may be hard for new players, but the same own mechanics have SC. And SC also have a hard fights but not on the start of dungeon. But isn't a big difference.
If you can finish FBI with 11 IL - so go, if you not ready - so leave it. But you should be informed that this dungeon is hurd for you.
and yes, healers should just a little heals party, tanks should agring and live on mobs. Try this strategy. I played by DC with low IL tanks, and I played by small tank with a nice DC, its ok. but... you cant go if your ally dont know him char.
"sometimes the world doesn't need another hero, sometimes what it needs is a monster"
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
A part of the problem is that people think they can go into "end-game" content, just because the have the minimum IL required, and that simply isn't true.
Example: I ran a random dungeon yesterday - team was DC (me), GF, TR and 2 HRs. I was running my DO loadout in full buff/debuff mode, and fully expected to do the least damage, but no, the order was TR > GF > DC > 2xHR. Yes, a DC just buffing and debuffing out-DPSed two of the DPsers. I looked at them, and yes, they had an IL of just over 13K, but somewhat weird choice of gear and artifacts. Not much you can do about it, but it is a bit frustrating.
Hoping for improvements...
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,158Arc User
I've got a guild member, been playing a little over a week. Got the Vistani gear. Got a couple of artifacts from the guild. Most of what they've been working on is Barovia, some Chult, maybe started intro chains for other campaigns. So not much in the way of gear or experience or boons from all those campaigns they haven't done yet.
"I am end game." (facepalm)
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
I looked at them, and yes, they had an IL of just over 13K, but somewhat weird choice of gear and artifacts. Not much you can do about it, but it is a bit frustrating.
Quoted for truth.
You can get a high iL artificially by buying cheap Rank9/10 Enchants from the AH and leveling them up pretty easily once you have QM Enchants for the RP. But those enchants wont add much to your combat ability.
I know this because I am now re-building my GF as their enchants were all rank 12 but rubbish ones, too much life steal which sucks big time!
SO it about experience of WHAT enchants to use and how to use them as well ...
Generally speaking NW is way too complicated which leads to low player ability in game
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checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
edited September 2018
Before I run up that hill in FBI, I do inspect the party. I do not look at TIL. What I look for are the following:
1) Everfrost resist %. This tells me a lot. Why do I inspect before FBI? Because it tells me whether the person is the kind of player to attempt the campaign before queueing in RAQ (which is permitted). Since Everfrost resist comes from the SKT campaign as a guaranteed item after a certain amount of playing, it lets me immediately judge whether the player is looking to be carried or looking to contribute in the dungeon. Also, it helps me know whether I should setup as tank, conqueror, or just leave. For my practical purposes, based on time and relationships, I choose not to attempt to carry RAQ players through FBI, and I use Everfrost resist % as the litmus test. Since RAQ is ADVANCED, I choose not to play with a random player who is deciding on their own not to get their player to the necessary (yes, necessary) condition before the dungeons. If that player is choosing in their own play style to skip the campaign, and not know from the campaign at an easier level how the mobs work (which is their right), so be it. But, I, in my own right, choose not to support their decision to play such in RAQ. The campaigns offer the means to learn what to do at an easier level and provide the base necessity to be successful in FBI. I tested this out yesterday in RAQ. In one party, I examined the queued players. 3 of the 5 (with various TILs ranging from 11k to 15k) did not have Everfrost resist above 10%. Since I was the only tank running KV, I was taking huge damage from them. I switched to Conqueror and choose to solo the mobs and ignore my 'team.' All this did was frustrate them because now they are dying even more (no KV) and then they leave. The base problem here that I look for is built INTO the RAQ system, that can be used by players who DO desire to skip campaigns in ignorance.
2) Gear synergies and MH/OH sets. Again, I do not look for TIL, but I am looking for gear that gives extra bonuses. Does the player have an artifact in the active slot that makes sense for the role they will play (anything that buffs their damage)? Do they have Primal Rings, which can be farmed from RD HEs with almost no effort (well more than it was, but still...)? Do they have any green gear (yes, I look for this...not including artifacts)? Do they have any gear slots not filled in (like shirt and pants...I have seen this too)? Since gear is so easy to get, I do a quick look. I also look at the MH and OH set. Is it a set, or is it mixed? Where does the set land on the scale of weapons? In the party I was in yesterday, one dpser was using the EE set. Is it arrogant and elitism for me to think that this is inadequate for FBI? You can judge. It lets me know that the player has not been exposed to information (ignorance) sufficiently from friends or from self-research, that there are better sets that are readily available from in-game play. That player's TIL was sufficient to queue for FBI. But, in my opinion, the player character was not ready. And the run proved it to be such.
3) Weapon enchantment. This is nebulous and is not due to any player in particular. Since Cryptic changed the manner in which everything is buffed and debuffed, I look quickly at the other 4 enchants of the party, and, based on what I know about stacking buff and debuff, I ask whether it is sufficient for FBI. In most cases, the party that is insufficient to complete FBI not only has no ER resist, has inappropriate sets, but also has the cheapest (AH wise) enchants one could get. And many are the same type. I run Unparalleled Terror, and if three other party members have Moderate Terror, then the FBI run, regardless of TIL, will be difficult. So, I do a quick look-over. If there is a spectrum of enchants, the run is a go. If we all overlap, I will look at the other two and decided to attempt or not. I will let the first mob decide the fate of the run.
At first encounter on the hill, I look for the following: 1) Did anyone run ahead before I got there as the tank? Unless they are uber solo player known to be able to solo stuff (extremely rare), that will be an automatic leave for me. I will NOT tank for Leeroys. 2) Did the party attempt (even if not successful) to stop the orc from sounding the alarm? 3) When the party moves to avoid, do they accidentally pull more giants? 4) Do the dpsers stand still in the middle of giants and attempt to burn them down? 5) On what target do they choose to focus? Or are we all scattered? Do they focus on what I am marking?
Now, I might be called an elitist for doing this. Probably, but it is ADVANCED queue. But this is what I choose to do to deal with RAQ as it IS.
Will nerfing FBI help with this problem? In the short term, yes. It will support the players who are choosing to play in that manner...until the next dungeon dungeon in difficulty on the list. But, this is exactly the point that Micky1poo and others are arguing. Deferring the problem to support this kind of play style because Cryptic offers a poorly designed queue system is incorrect, in my opinion.
I try to read all the comments ,interesting thread.
As all things in life,truth is somewhere between the two views: FBI does not need a nerf,but things are no so easy as many claim.
The difference between the two views can be explained by the perception and the gaming experience between the two sides: It has lees to do with gear and more to do with gameplkay behaviour and socialization.
And I explain: Chemjeff's view,players,play the game whenever they have the time,cannot wait too long to form parties and they cannot rely on thier FL.So they will pug a lot ,and most of the times, they will play with a non "optimal" grp composition
.One DC,if any,not the best most of the times or barely adequate,sometimes not even a Dc will fell the healer role but an OP Dev.50% of the cases the Dev OP will the the loadout of a Prot OP,that means unoptimized build for solo healer/buffer.
The tank will be either a good pally,an unexperienced pally or a low to mid IL GF,or a high IL GF.As you see there are 50% chances the run to be doomed from the start,talking about FBI.Unexperienced pallies,and low to mid Il Gfs cannot tank FBI.
The DPS can range from low Il-unadequate ,to mid IL to good DPS.If you get low IL or no exp DPS you are going for a lengthy FBI run .
Now someone better at maths with me,can add the possibilities of failure depending on random player selection. I think the failure rate is going to be very big.
The only time FBI is going to be easy is if you get adequate Healer/buffer and a good tank and sufficient performance DPS. the chances are slim;In @micky1p00 video ,was lucky:a very good DC,an adequate tank,and another high IL DPS.This is not always the case.
----------
To sum it up and in general: One view is compiled by mainly solo players ,who play with the people they find:so they run with unoptimized parties.They tend to exaggerate the content difficulty.
the other view is comprised by people that run with optimised parties or with high IL friends.They think game is piece of cake. Truth lies in the middle.
By the way, chemjeff's graphes are not correct in my opinion. CN-FBI gap is lower, and FBI-MSP and MSP-TONG gap are way higher.
I personally think MSP is easier than FBI, from my point of view, in a premade group. There are no mobs comparable to the giants in FBI, there is no separate Everfrost damage, and as long as everyone understands the mechanics of the three bosses, the only real challenging part is the second boss, and this can still be completed even if one or two DPS characters fall off the platform, even if the tank falls off the platform, as long as the DC and a semi-competent DPS character remains. And none of the mechanics of the three bosses are nearly as tricky as Drufi's icicle/call of winter mechanic in FBI. I have actually had more success overall solo queueing into MSP on my DC, than I have solo queueing into FBI on my DC.
@checkmatein3 did i read this correct in your post (as none native english speaker), you don't need the everfrost resistance in an random q?
But you are still need it for a private party, as far as i know, bc a few weeks ago an guildmate want to test his Templock Twink/Alt and he couldn't queue bc he had not the neccessary resistance on his SW.
Really, i mean really....
Are you guys (even you @chemjeff ) agree with me that the easiest solution could be:
Give everyone when he reached lvl 70 the everfrost resistance gem, even without questing in Bryn Shandar?
Maybe this solution could lower a little bit the difficulty, even for people like "Bob and Shelley", but let FBI as it is..a stepstone for further, harder dungeons.
So may i summon you @frozenfirevr or @nitocris83 could you (if possible) inform the devs about my idea?
Or lock RAQ until they get the needed everfrost resistance. To queue for a random dungeon you have to fullfill all requirements not only gearscore.
Can be the solution, or let's players queu for RAQ but they can only match dungeon already unlocked. But anyway i guess we'll see very soon a rework on queu system.
Leave the difficulty where it is. Change the rewards from elven garbage. Same with MSP. Give better rewards, and more high geared players will run. Please don't change it like they did with CN, giving Orcus 5x the HP, but he hits like a girl now, because people said he was too hard. If the rewards don't justify the time, players that can complete TONG, CODG, CR with not much trouble, are going to stay there and farm better rewards.
ex: last night ran RAQ with alliance members, got MSP, took a little under an hour as 2 had never run, and gives me a white pearl in the one chest, and emerald in the other, with some elven armor.
If you want to queue directly for FBI, you have to unlock the dungeon in the campaign (on any character) and have 28% EF resist on the queuing character. RAQ bypasses all of this, and it shouldn't, IMO. I mentioned this much earlier in the the thread. New players shouldn't be able to hit 11k and just go into RAQ. They should also remove EDEMO as it violates the Equal Difficulty principle the new queues are supposed to be based on.
Frankly, EDEMO shouldn't be in any random queue unless they rework the rewards. It is just a slightly harder version with the same or worse rewards.
Post edited by pitshade on
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
FBI should at least have an unlock requirement of the crystal that gives you the 30% EF resist.
I agree. just hitting the 11K i-level just is not enough for that run. You need the EF resist, and the 10% you can get on your "Clothes" and the extra for the potions just wont cut it.
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frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
Give everyone when he reached lvl 70 the everfrost resistance gem, even without questing in Bryn Shandar?
Maybe this solution could lower a little bit the difficulty, even for people like "Bob and Shelley", but let FBI as it is..a stepstone for further, harder dungeons.
So may i summon you @frozenfirevr or @nitocris83 could you (if possible) inform the devs about my idea?
I'm not entirely sure of how RAQ is working, it seems to let you queue without unlocking any dungeons and even put you in un-unlocked dungeons and probably if you have any of the dungeon unlocked, put you only in that dungeon.
Not advocating this thread but I shall forward that request.
@checkmatein3 did i read this correct in your post (as none native english speaker), you don't need the everfrost resistance in an random q?
But you are still need it for a private party, as far as i know, bc a few weeks ago an guildmate want to test his Templock Twink/Alt and he couldn't queue bc he had not the neccessary resistance on his SW.
Really, i mean really....
Are you guys (even you @chemjeff ) agree with me that the easiest solution could be:
Give everyone when he reached lvl 70 the everfrost resistance gem, even without questing in Bryn Shandar?
Maybe this solution could lower a little bit the difficulty, even for people like "Bob and Shelley", but let FBI as it is..a stepstone for further, harder dungeons.
So may i summon you @frozenfirevr or @nitocris83 could you (if possible) inform the devs about my idea?
The problem not just that the dungeon does not requires everfrost resistance .. from what i know unlike REQ... the RAQ dungeons does not requires to unlock the dungeons..its automatically unlocks upon reaching 11k ilvls . therefore a new lvl70s toon need just get vistani gears/barovia hunts gears and slap a couple of artifacts can more or less que for RAQ... no experience / boons of the relevant campaign requires..
If were to nerf FBI...it wont change anything on RAQ those who fail the current FBI will not able to complete MSVA or MSP this will go back to the same problem.. also due to there isn't any good drops from FBI i doubt adventurer will private que FBI often.
I think ilvl not that important in dungeons like FBI its bout knowing the game mechanics and team work..
I would suggest ... instead of nerf dungeons like FBI make it rewarding for new players to do it to encourge them to try it and learn it..
For example...both chest auto unlocked at first 3 completed runs (reason: new players does not have keys and do not know what to expect from the extra chest) Also double the rough Astral Diamonds and seals for first 3 completed runs (reason: the time takes atleast 2x longer to complete compare than normal dungeons)
Comments
If you are struggling with something in life, and other people clearly aren't, maybe it is time to change something that you are doing.
Blaming the content is silly. Plenty of people are doing the solo queue in FBI, and they are doing fine. Why are they able to do it? There must be a better way.
Sure, everyone gets a bad team that fails sometimes. Some teams are supposed to fail. They are unprepared and have more to learn. That isn't a bad thing. They just need to focus their attention to becoming better. Most of the people here are happy to help players become better. Most of the time, (to help people) I just send them links to the work of the other people commenting here. Nobody here is saying "get good scrub", you guys keep bringing that up and it is clearly false. There are so many people willing to help others in Neverwinter, and Neverwinter is already such an easy game to play.
I saw a CW in a solo RAQ today using Arcane Singularity at Haiti. I am not going to list all the things I saw him doing wrong, you get the point. He didn't belong in FBI, not yet. So what? That isn't a bad thing. All you can do is point people in the right direction. If they still fail, that isn't someone else's fault.
If everyone was struggling with the solo queue FBI experience then you guys would have a point. You don't though. Plenty of people do it just fine. FBI is in a good spot to be a wake up call for many players. They need to learn mechanics, read about the game, and figure out the better ways to play. FBI is not some super hard dungeon. 99% of that dungeon is common sense. The mechanics that aren't, can easily be described to someone who is new.
If people are doing something, you probably can too!
I myself talked a lot about that climb "mechanic", but explaining that it's not like a boss mechanic that you need to do in order to pass it. It's more about understanding how to play with a team, and optimize your own character in a dungeon.
It's about movement, placement, rotations, coordination, timing, synergy. Climbing the hill is not a mechanic like the Soul counter in Ras Nsi, unique for a boss, climbing the hill is a mechanic that you are needed to understand for EVERY endgame content as a group. And not only for the hill in FBI, but for every group of mobs in higher dungeon, and every boss. What you learn in terms of gameplay and teamplay when you're in a team that struggle in FBI is what you need to have as basis for higher content. Several things:
Players can just ignore FBI and move to tong/cr. That is true.
However, if these players just ignore FBI and move to this content in random queue, it's an auto fail, and that's totally normal. Players that skip content A and come freshly against content B that's way harder, without knowing a thing about endgame content are goind to fail. and it's a good thing as they're not prepared at all to do it.
So what people do when they continuously fail a dungeon with every random queue they're doing? 3 things:
- Get back to the content they skipped, thinking "Maybe if this dungeon is here it's to teach me something about the game? Maybe this dungeon is an intermediate content in terms of difficulty and I should try it before going to that high dungeon I keep failing to complete?". This should lead to a simple research on internet, get builds, informations on buff
- Get themselves a run in the dungeon they want with guilds/friends willing to help him learn and understand. And if they do that, they'll be able to do FBI after that without problem. You noticed that everyone in a guild don't struggle to pass FBI. This hill is a wall for players that didn't have the chance to have such friends to help them, and an indicator of their current understanding of their own class and how to teamplay.
- Come to the forum and post nerf threads
By the way, chemjeff's graphes are not correct in my opinion. CN-FBI gap is lower, and FBI-MSP and MSP-TONG gap are way higher.
This is not Wow!
Power creep is too big. Content is already easy for premades.
Hard dungeon?
-Join a guild! Use TS/Discord with your guildmates and friends and find out a strategy!
-Level your character! The recommended dungeon Item levels won't guarantee success!
In fact recommended IL = "your HAMSTER can be carried in this dungeon"!
I agree with most of this but "Use TS/Discord " is not needed. Many do not want to do that and it is not needed and impling that it is will cause an even worse exodus from this game.
EDIT ESP Considiring that dungeons like FBI is doable with guildies at 10k IL (we have carried a 10k op tank through fbi so it is doable) NO VOICE SERVER USED. The true solution is a return of master/normal version of dungeons giving people a chance to learn the mechanics in a safe environment then it will be less of a shock. FBI is not hard if you do not aproach it as a dps race to finish in less than 30 min
RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ????
FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
I thing that need just a big RED worning if you haven't enough frost resistance for dungeon.
just like in highest locations when you joined it on low level.
yeah, mobs/boss mechanic may be hard for new players, but the same own mechanics have SC. And SC also have a hard fights but not on the start of dungeon. But isn't a big difference.
If you can finish FBI with 11 IL - so go, if you not ready - so leave it. But you should be informed that this dungeon is hurd for you.
and yes, healers should just a little heals party, tanks should agring and live on mobs. Try this strategy.
I played by DC with low IL tanks, and I played by small tank with a nice DC, its ok. but... you cant go if your ally dont know him char.
Example: I ran a random dungeon yesterday - team was DC (me), GF, TR and 2 HRs. I was running my DO loadout in full buff/debuff mode, and fully expected to do the least damage, but no, the order was TR > GF > DC > 2xHR. Yes, a DC just buffing and debuffing out-DPSed two of the DPsers. I looked at them, and yes, they had an IL of just over 13K, but somewhat weird choice of gear and artifacts. Not much you can do about it, but it is a bit frustrating.
"I am end game." (facepalm)
You can get a high iL artificially by buying cheap Rank9/10 Enchants from the AH and leveling them up pretty easily once you have QM Enchants for the RP. But those enchants wont add much to your combat ability.
I know this because I am now re-building my GF as their enchants were all rank 12 but rubbish ones, too much life steal which sucks big time!
SO it about experience of WHAT enchants to use and how to use them as well ...
Generally speaking NW is way too complicated which leads to low player ability in game
1) Everfrost resist %. This tells me a lot. Why do I inspect before FBI? Because it tells me whether the person is the kind of player to attempt the campaign before queueing in RAQ (which is permitted). Since Everfrost resist comes from the SKT campaign as a guaranteed item after a certain amount of playing, it lets me immediately judge whether the player is looking to be carried or looking to contribute in the dungeon. Also, it helps me know whether I should setup as tank, conqueror, or just leave. For my practical purposes, based on time and relationships, I choose not to attempt to carry RAQ players through FBI, and I use Everfrost resist % as the litmus test. Since RAQ is ADVANCED, I choose not to play with a random player who is deciding on their own not to get their player to the necessary (yes, necessary) condition before the dungeons. If that player is choosing in their own play style to skip the campaign, and not know from the campaign at an easier level how the mobs work (which is their right), so be it. But, I, in my own right, choose not to support their decision to play such in RAQ. The campaigns offer the means to learn what to do at an easier level and provide the base necessity to be successful in FBI. I tested this out yesterday in RAQ. In one party, I examined the queued players. 3 of the 5 (with various TILs ranging from 11k to 15k) did not have Everfrost resist above 10%. Since I was the only tank running KV, I was taking huge damage from them. I switched to Conqueror and choose to solo the mobs and ignore my 'team.' All this did was frustrate them because now they are dying even more (no KV) and then they leave. The base problem here that I look for is built INTO the RAQ system, that can be used by players who DO desire to skip campaigns in ignorance.
2) Gear synergies and MH/OH sets. Again, I do not look for TIL, but I am looking for gear that gives extra bonuses. Does the player have an artifact in the active slot that makes sense for the role they will play (anything that buffs their damage)? Do they have Primal Rings, which can be farmed from RD HEs with almost no effort (well more than it was, but still...)? Do they have any green gear (yes, I look for this...not including artifacts)? Do they have any gear slots not filled in (like shirt and pants...I have seen this too)? Since gear is so easy to get, I do a quick look. I also look at the MH and OH set. Is it a set, or is it mixed? Where does the set land on the scale of weapons? In the party I was in yesterday, one dpser was using the EE set. Is it arrogant and elitism for me to think that this is inadequate for FBI? You can judge. It lets me know that the player has not been exposed to information (ignorance) sufficiently from friends or from self-research, that there are better sets that are readily available from in-game play. That player's TIL was sufficient to queue for FBI. But, in my opinion, the player character was not ready. And the run proved it to be such.
3) Weapon enchantment. This is nebulous and is not due to any player in particular. Since Cryptic changed the manner in which everything is buffed and debuffed, I look quickly at the other 4 enchants of the party, and, based on what I know about stacking buff and debuff, I ask whether it is sufficient for FBI. In most cases, the party that is insufficient to complete FBI not only has no ER resist, has inappropriate sets, but also has the cheapest (AH wise) enchants one could get. And many are the same type. I run Unparalleled Terror, and if three other party members have Moderate Terror, then the FBI run, regardless of TIL, will be difficult. So, I do a quick look-over. If there is a spectrum of enchants, the run is a go. If we all overlap, I will look at the other two and decided to attempt or not. I will let the first mob decide the fate of the run.
At first encounter on the hill, I look for the following:
1) Did anyone run ahead before I got there as the tank? Unless they are uber solo player known to be able to solo stuff (extremely rare), that will be an automatic leave for me. I will NOT tank for Leeroys.
2) Did the party attempt (even if not successful) to stop the orc from sounding the alarm?
3) When the party moves to avoid, do they accidentally pull more giants?
4) Do the dpsers stand still in the middle of giants and attempt to burn them down?
5) On what target do they choose to focus? Or are we all scattered? Do they focus on what I am marking?
Now, I might be called an elitist for doing this. Probably, but it is ADVANCED queue. But this is what I choose to do to deal with RAQ as it IS.
Will nerfing FBI help with this problem? In the short term, yes. It will support the players who are choosing to play in that manner...until the next dungeon dungeon in difficulty on the list. But, this is exactly the point that Micky1poo and others are arguing. Deferring the problem to support this kind of play style because Cryptic offers a poorly designed queue system is incorrect, in my opinion.
Cheers all!
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
As all things in life,truth is somewhere between the two views:
FBI does not need a nerf,but things are no so easy as many claim.
The difference between the two views can be explained by the perception and the gaming experience between the two sides:
It has lees to do with gear and more to do with gameplkay behaviour and socialization.
And I explain:
Chemjeff's view,players,play the game whenever they have the time,cannot wait too long to form parties and they cannot rely on thier FL.So they will pug a lot ,and most of the times, they will play with a non "optimal" grp composition
.One DC,if any,not the best most of the times or barely adequate,sometimes not even a Dc will fell the healer role but an OP Dev.50% of the cases the Dev OP will the the loadout of a Prot OP,that means unoptimized build for solo healer/buffer.
The tank will be either a good pally,an unexperienced pally or a low to mid IL GF,or a high IL GF.As you see there are 50% chances the run to be doomed from the start,talking about FBI.Unexperienced pallies,and low to mid Il Gfs cannot tank FBI.
The DPS can range from low Il-unadequate ,to mid IL to good DPS.If you get low IL or no exp DPS you are going for a lengthy FBI run .
Now someone better at maths with me,can add the possibilities of failure depending on random player selection.
I think the failure rate is going to be very big.
The only time FBI is going to be easy is if you get adequate Healer/buffer and a good tank and sufficient performance DPS.
the chances are slim;In @micky1p00 video ,was lucky:a very good DC,an adequate tank,and another high IL DPS.This is not always the case.
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To sum it up and in general:
One view is compiled by mainly solo players ,who play with the people they find:so they run with unoptimized parties.They tend to exaggerate the content difficulty.
the other view is comprised by people that run with optimised parties or with high IL friends.They think game is piece of cake.
Truth lies in the middle.
@checkmatein3 did i read this correct in your post (as none native english speaker), you don't need the everfrost resistance in an random q?
But you are still need it for a private party, as far as i know, bc a few weeks ago an guildmate want to test his Templock Twink/Alt and he couldn't queue bc he had not the neccessary resistance on his SW.
Really, i mean really....
Are you guys (even you @chemjeff ) agree with me that the easiest solution could be:
Give everyone when he reached lvl 70 the everfrost resistance gem, even without questing in Bryn Shandar?
Maybe this solution could lower a little bit the difficulty, even for people like "Bob and Shelley", but let FBI as it is..a stepstone for further, harder dungeons.
So may i summon you @frozenfirevr or @nitocris83 could you (if possible) inform the devs about my idea?
But anyway i guess we'll see very soon a rework on queu system.
ex: last night ran RAQ with alliance members, got MSP, took a little under an hour as 2 had never run, and gives me a white pearl in the one chest, and emerald in the other, with some elven armor.
said i'd do it. soloed to turtle, what's more than i promised. easy.
No, never.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Frankly, EDEMO shouldn't be in any random queue unless they rework the rewards. It is just a slightly harder version with the same or worse rewards.
I agree. just hitting the 11K i-level just is not enough for that run. You need the EF resist, and the 10% you can get on your "Clothes" and the extra for the potions just wont cut it.
Not advocating this thread but I shall forward that request.
If were to nerf FBI...it wont change anything on RAQ those who fail the current FBI will not able to complete MSVA or MSP this will go back to the same problem.. also due to there isn't any good drops from FBI i doubt adventurer will private que FBI often.
I think ilvl not that important in dungeons like FBI its bout knowing the game mechanics and team work..
I would suggest ...
instead of nerf dungeons like FBI make it rewarding for new players to do it to encourge them to try it and learn it..
For example...both chest auto unlocked at first 3 completed runs (reason: new players does not have keys and do not know what to expect from the extra chest)
Also double the rough Astral Diamonds and seals for first 3 completed runs (reason: the time takes atleast 2x longer to complete compare than normal dungeons)