There are definately some abusive sources of healing in pvp that need a look. For example a team without a faithful cleric is at a huge disadvantage automatically due to the way empowered shields presently work in conjunction with gift of faith. This allows a cleric with good gear and a high hp pool to be braindead and sit inside an empowered shield stacking up gift taking almost no damage. The only way to counter this is try and push them out and burst them down with a CC chain (which can take quite a bit sometimes), but then the easily stacked up gift of faith kicks in and the cycle continues. If there are any adjustments to cc where there is diminishing returns added in the future we will begin to see double faith cleric teams popping up again like we had in mod 5, and games where no one dies because of constant gifts proccing off when someone is low and about to die. I think self healing powers from certain classes that grant full HP (gift of faith, lay on hands) or extremely high regen (wilds medicine) need a hard look in pvp. They should definitely not be as effective as they are presently.
Insignias on the other hand were pretty well nerfed with the last changes to insignias, and aside from abusive classes like HRs using extremely high deflect, the self healing boons don't seem ridiculous. Maybe tune the way these powers work so the cooldown is much longer, but they grant more healing so other classes can benefit the same way HRs do? Also please put a cooldown on the skeleton steed self healing power. When used by a certain class *cough* HR *cough* this power goes off way too much due to way dailies work with their mechanics.
I AM looking for a logic answer why a cc to get diminshing return? i have posted previous players can stack higher control resistance than the control durations. IF you dont add to your character control resistance why the cc to get diminishing return when you dont protect yourself?
I will say it once more crushing roots and spamming powers with root from hunter nothing can do the control resistance. Same and for courage breaker from tr. THAT is not responsible the cc general since with good control resistance you can easily resist an opressor ( supposed ignore and some of the tenacity).
A PvP only buff, "Every second you are controlled gain a stack of immunity, at X stacks you become immune to control effects for Y seconds" is by far simpler than any attempt to nerf CC in any way IMO. @rgutscheradev
I AM looking for a logic answer why a cc to get diminshing return?
Because some classes and powers ignore the CC diminishing return. Also, other powers and passives can bug and ignore certain "immunities" on PvP, making that some classes can perma control a target.
as long as a tank can oneshot everything and run like a fox every discussion about balance this balance that is meaningless. buffs are also out of discussion when the balance meter is now GFs. In a world without gfs and with nerfed tr/hr, GWFs would be out of whack. While this might be true i would like to wait before. So lets bring few classes down to earth (primary GFs) and then lets talk about what can be nerfed. im ok with HRs changes (i play one) but not when a tank (GFs and to a certain degree OPs) can deal the damage they deal.
FEEDBACK: tenacity has to go before mod 13 or mod 12/b
... make the deflect damaging boons actually proc on a deflect instead of just standing near an opponent.
This is a long-standing issue in the respect that all proc-on-deflect effects can trigger outside of a combat situation, even in a no-combat location like a town. I've often said it jokingly, but we apparently deflect absolutely everything all the time, right down to NPCs breathing on you.
Over the years, it has been sometimes as relatively unintrusive as text spam. I forget what the HR PvP armor set bonus proc was called, but things like it have created confusion as the floating text would show up all the time, even though it wouldn't be doing anything if you were not fighting. http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Archer's_Profound_Leather_Armor
The bigger complaint players tend to have was first seen with the Sharandar boon Fey Thistle, so some of us still refer to it as "the Fey Thistle bug", even though that one was eventually found and fixed and we only see it with newer effects. If your character has a boon or other effect active that will create damage on deflect, it will put you in combat constantly. You can't emote because you'll be interrupted. You can't stand still because TRs will bop in place, GWFs will put their sword up and down, etc.
Anyway, despite Fey Thistle itself having been fixed eons ago, the same bug crops up every single time yet another damage-on-deflect proc is introduced. This is frustrating. I don't think boons/powers/etc. should be fixed piecemeal, and it would be more appropriate to look at how the game decides what it should be deflecting, or at least attempting to deflect since so many of the attempts accomplish nothing other than to proc out of combat and probably use server resources to do so.
Also related, it's possible to deflect a friendly effect that you probably don't want to, like a heal. This is probably bad.
I think deflection should probably only be applied to hostile/harmful effects, not as a blanket to everything, which is how it appears externally. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to restrict it to damage sources, but it might be, especially if that ended up being the simplest way to address all the issues at once. But I'm still unhappy about DCs only being able to Cleanse DoT effects and not control effects, which was v.useful, imo. I feel this was a lazy and thoughtless way of correcting the issue of accidentally Cleansing friendly effects. I don't really want deflection to get treated with the exact same heavy hand.
But... I am thinking it's possible that @rgutscheradev might be our man to fix some of these things once and for all. I believe in you!
as long as a tank can oneshot everything and run like a fox every discussion about balance this balance that is meaningless. buffs are also out of discussion when the balance meter is now GFs. In a world without gfs and with nerfed tr/hr, GWFs would be out of whack. While this might be true i would like to wait before. So lets bring few classes down to earth (primary GFs) and then lets talk about what can be nerfed. im ok with HRs changes (i play one) but not when a tank (GFs and to a certain degree OPs) can deal the damage they deal.
And dont forget about DCs over healings, Astral Shield, Annoited Army, etc. As so is truth for CWs and Trappers HRs with perma control too... What you are doing is a kid strat called "distraction": you want to misguide players into one specific problem instead of talking them all at once. You can read what i told @rgutscheradev about how i do think about GF class on me previous post...
TL/DR: I do agree on both nerfing GF class into a what it must be (a tank class) and, at the same time, i do agree to nerf ALL HEALS on PvP down to 10% [90% of Heal depression instead of 50]
Man... I feel like sometimes we can be on the same page, and other times it seems were on totally different pages.
DC overhealing/AS - I would agree some modifications should be done here. For instance, the DC faithful capstone the "stored up heals" should probably have some sort of "range" on them, so you cant fight at mid, store up heals, and then head to a different node to "1v1" on that node, then all the sudden "pop - full HP" from the DC capstone. Also Empowered AS providing a sheer # off EACH attack is kinda silly as any DOT that is lower then that attack, or quick attacks for less damage each hit get penalized FAR too much. So this could have some small tweaks as well.
But when you say make heal depression 90% instead of 50%... That is just WAY OVERKILL man... I know what you are saying and why, and maybe you think its an easier "lever" for them to do rather than actually nerf the things that NEED to be nerfed (like Endless Consumption or the Lion Mount heal) but this is just silly.
As for GFs - I would agree. Right now they excel in what seems like every area. They have good burst damage, good damage mitigation (shield), strong control, decent mobility (with ITF) and also great "support" they provide (ITF) or even Knights Valor (which nobody uses but should be a cornerstone IMO of the GF class).
So what I think a GF should be? A great Tank, Buffer, Controller but the GF should lack "damage". I dont want to propose this or that changes... Because I am no GF expert (though I used to be WAY back when) and some of the simple solutions like (undo the weapon damage increase paladins/GFs got) might nerf paladins too much...
What I see as an underlying theme with ALOT of this though? Stat inflation... I STILL would LOVE to see a NW PVP event, or enable us to test this in private Que... where we turn OFF all boons and dont use ANY potions/consumables
When this is done, It actually solves a lot of issues as you cant "have it all" like you can now. Right now you can have high power, high ARP, Lifesteal, HP, deflect, etc. You can "have it all" due to all theboons.
If you remove all that power creep : boons+pots/food it removes a TON of stats and strips classes down to more of their "base" class which I actually THINK alleviates some of these issues addressed above. maybe it doesnt, but atleast classes would have to choose and build weighing pros vs cons where you now have a touch choice to balance offensive vs defensive stats.
Anyways, its probably a pipedream but that (to me) just makes the most sense of them all: 1) remove all boons from PVP (besides PVP campaign) 2) remove all potions, elixirs, food, etc. from PVP 3) Modify Crit Resist so it reduces crit severity - not total crit damage 4) Due to losing significant sources of ARP (from boons), we no longer need "ARP Resist" in PVP. 5) Move tenacity DR and tenacity CC resist to character sheet and remove "tenacity" as a stat on ALL gear.
Then my next 2 "wish list" would involve items: 1) Fix Feytouch Weapon Enchant (its super super broken) 2) Make negation reduce incoming damage RATHER THAN provide DR %
Doing these, would remove a TON of the barriers to entry for PVP, remove some class imbalance issues and fix some item issues, nerf self healing, make crits better in PVP, etc. etc.
Anyways, its probably a pipedream but that (to me) just makes the most sense of them all: 1) remove all boons from PVP (besides PVP campaign) 2) remove all potions, elixirs, food, etc. from PVP 3) Modify Crit Resist so it reduces crit severity - not total crit damage 4) Due to losing significant sources of ARP (from boons), we no longer need "ARP Resist" in PVP. 5) Move tenacity DR and tenacity CC resist to character sheet and remove "tenacity" as a stat on ALL gear.
Then my next 2 "wish list" would involve items: 1) Fix Feytouch Weapon Enchant (its super super broken) 2) Make negation reduce incoming damage RATHER THAN provide DR %
My two cents might not matter but i figured i may as well respond:
1. No you should be rewarded for grinding out all of those campaigns. 2. Just allow normal potions and vault of piety potions. But exclude all of the guild food, summer festival food, master crafting potions and potions of heroism. 3. Totally agree it would make crit actually useful which would be fantastic. 4. Refer to 1. 5. Totally agree. 100% agree with that one.
In response to your wish list: 1. Its OP only because its active seemingly permanently. If they made it 10 or 15 out of 20 like other enchantments it would be balanced. 2. Yes it should be incoming damage but certainly not 30% less incoming damage I would suggest 15% if they wanted to rework it.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
Anyways, its probably a pipedream but that (to me) just makes the most sense of them all: 1) remove all boons from PVP (besides PVP campaign)
My two cents might not matter but i figured i may as well respond:
1. No you should be rewarded for grinding out all of those campaigns.
In response to your wish list: 1. Its OP only because its active seemingly permanently. If they made it 10 or 15 out of 20 like other enchantments it would be balanced. 2. Yes it should be incoming damage but certainly not 30% less incoming damage I would suggest 15% if they wanted to rework it.
1) I completely sympathize with this and this too was my gut reaction - ESPECIALLY when it came to the thought of me losing my rank 20 SH boons! We worked hard for that, should be rewarded! Right?
well, here is the problem. PVP will never, and can never be a competitive environment when you allow for literally tens of thousands of stats that new players and many "average/casual" players do not have. If this still doesnt sit right with you, I dont blame you, but let me give you another example.
Lets say, they release a brand new artifact weapon with a .01% chance to drop but its weapon damage is over 50,000... And you just so happened to have it drop after farming it over and over! Well, on one hand you "earned it" you should get to have that in PVP right? On the other hand, you now 1 shot everybody you meet in PVP - making it an unfair place for even the most geared players....
But you see the problem? Just because you "worked hard" for something doesnt mean its a good idea to let that something impact PVP - where players should have a more "level" or "even" field of play. The same could be said about Lion mounts, or heck, even companions with Bondings! "I worked hard to get those bondings, I should be rewarded in PVP by being able to use them!"
This has actually been the case during MANY modules of this game. Mod 0 we had "Tenebrous Enchants" that dealt "piercing damage" and you could hit someone with 1 at will and Tenebrous could chunk them for 1/3rd of their life unblockable, unmitigated. They cost ALOT (millions of AD) but made PVP an unfair place for many. It became a place of "haves" vs "have nots"
Or module 2 and the Emblem Artifact. It had no ICD on the heal. Well I paid 6 mil AD for the GREEN one and even more to get it to max... I worked hard for that AD and to have that! But it made PVP unfair - again "haves" vs "havenots" because Emblem would make you unkillable vs your counterparts making PVP again an unfair place...
See - "working hard" for something doesnt mean its a good idea to allow it in a PVP environment. In fact, PVP should be more equalized so that all the stuff people "work hard for" matters LESS (not zero, but LESS) so that a newer player to the game can level up, hit 70 have blue gear and play PVP without FIRST having to spend months doing dailies to get boons and without first being forced to join a high ranking SH guild just so he can PVP. Without first having to go get a Lion Mount, or having to get or do XYZ just so he can play PVP.
This is why PVP is in the state it currently is! The barriers to entry are too high, preventing all but the MOST geared PVPers from playing it. Preventing even many geared PVE players from doing it. The new lvl 70 doesnt stand even the slightest chance against a "best in slot" player. In fact, you could line up 100 (yes 100) new level 70s against a best in slot player and I would put my money on that ONE best in slot PVP player, who has the boons, has tenacity, has everything. Even if you gave those new players tenacity gear, they have low HP, low damage, low DR, low lifesteal, etc. etc.
The "power gap" (not the stat power) between even an AVERAGE player and a best in slot PVP player is massive. You could have an entire team of "average" item level players not be able to take down 1 "best in slot" PVP player... This was not always the case. Even with the broken stuff I mentioned above, you couldnt 5v1. You COULD get a fresh 70, gear him in blues, que for PVP and actually make an impact in the match. You wouldnt be able to 1v1 a guy with tenebrous, but you could 2v1 or 3v1 him... This isnt true today. PUGs get absolutely wrecked because they are missing tens of thousands of stats - all brought on by #1 BOONS and #2 POTIONS/CONSUMABLES.
Removing these, and giving everyone "tenacity" without having to gear for it, gets rid of TONS of "barrier to entry" for PVP and makes it a much more competitive place for ALL!
LAST COMMENT about boons: If you do remove tenacity on gear, and if you do give it to everyone free of gear, then for many classes, much of the "BEST PVP GEAR" will actually come from PVE now. In PVE ALL your boons and stuff you worked for helps you. So in a sense, to get the best PVP gear, almost still REQUIRES you have the boons because itll require you to run PVE to get... However unlike what it is today, the difference between someone that has the boons and therefore gets the best PVE gear for PVP.... and someone who just picks up "average" gear, well that "gap" would be much smaller - which is how it should be for PVP.
As for Feytouched - I didnt say its OP or not, I said its broken as in NOT WORKING CORRECTLY
Negation - I would be fine with a reduction in overall effectiveness. In fact 30% DR reduces damage FAR more than 15% inc damage reduction, but you cant bypass it with RI%, so maybe 15% would be fair.
1
kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
edited July 2017
This thread had gotten completely derailed. While a lot of the removed comments were PvP related, they didn't pertain to the main subject of the thread - which is the Private Queue PvP and the healing depression questions asked by @rgutscheradev. The off topic stuff is in an open thread that can still be commented on and can be found here. Please try to keep this thread on topic. Thanks.
Post edited by kreatyve on
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Oks, repasting my comment as seems like it was "moved" by mistake.
@ayroux well, after watching 300k HP healings, i thought that 30k per heal tick is nice (imo), but you're right in certain sense: i've watch these amounts on BiS vs BiS matches, not on "regular" ones... so, i think that a good idea would be make a "progressive heal depression" based on IL: the lower, the better heals do you get/do.
But think about this and using my PoV: right now, even under HD, we are watching 300ks heals on PvP besides "self sustain" (insignias, LS + Endless, etc), this means that on PvP we are healing for 600k+ [i think the biggest heal i saw on PvP was like over 600ks this means that that DC healed for 1.2M...] . Do you really think that those amounts (300ks) with 50% on HD are correct? Not from my PoV, sorry, because those amounts just make teams immortals and, from my PoV, heals must be "impactful" on teamfights not "game breaking"...
Yeah and I agree with your assessment, I just dont agree with the solution. There IS a problem of too much healing AND self healing. I dont think the best way is to increase heal depression more.. But the better solution I see, is to remove what causes us to have all this healing. Power Creep.
Removing boons + pots removes all the power creep that drastically contributes to all these numbers. Thats my solution to this problem.
In all honesty, heal depression is just ANOTHER "barrier" that separates PVE and PVP. A perfect example is life steal. PVE players dont stack NEARLY as much self healing as they do in PVP... Why? Because they already have plenty of sources of self healing AND its not cut in half. So PVP players need to stack way MORE self healing because all healing is halved.
What this does is creates a "gap" between what PVE players use, and PVP players. Which means if PVE players go into PVP, they likely have less self healing "stuff" because they dont need as much in PVE....
point being. I still KEEP coming back to: 1) remove boons from PVP (besides the PVP campaign boons) 2) remove consumable buffs (potions, food, elixirs, etc.) 3) Transfer all tenacity DR, Crit Resist, and CC resist to character sheet (off the gear!) 4) Re-work crit resist so it ONLY impacts crit severity, not total damage 5) due to losing all the boon sources of ARP, we no longer need ARP resist. The only sources of ARP would be: Ability score, Gear, Enchants, and Artifacts. Which now to really "MAX" ARP/RI% you will have to be willing to sacrifice other stats - which means its a tradeoff (how it should be).
Those 5 things would completely overhaul PVP. Less healing, less self healing, less stat inflation, less GEAR GAP between new players, average players, PVE players and PVP players. It makes PVP a much more competitive place. You STILL have builds and gear that matter. Enchants matter, artifacts matter, gear matters, etc...
But it makes that "gap" between a BEST Geared player and an "average" player maybe just a few thousand stats, rather than tens of thousands of stats. And as someone already pointed out, stats SYNERGIZE with eachother, so more stats isnt a "linear" gain but an exponential one... Where more power/crit/arp all = more damage which ALSO = more self healing from lifesteal.
We need these for PVP first. Then we can start looking at adjusting a few things (if needed) on each class for PVP. But this would fix A LOT of the PVP issues.
I wanted to let everyone know where things stand now.
As I mentioned before, the plan was to remove Tenacity and replace it with a global PvP buff that everyone gets. I've built that internally, and here's what the tooltip for that buff looks like: "Armor Penetration is 60% less effective. Critical Severity is 40% less effective. Healing is 50% less effective. Players take 40% less damage."
Some comments: * Note that the armor pen reduction and "players take less damage" are just versions of what Tenacity does now. * The crit sev reduction is the requested replacement for the old Tenacity-based Critical Strike Resistance. * Note control resistance has gone away. It's being replaced by a building immunity as you get hit by control effects (currently 25%/50%/75%/Immune, but we're still tuning it on our end). It's not in the tooltip described above because it will have its own immunity-stack tooltip. * The healing depression is not a new thing, but it didn't appear in any player-facing text before.
Changing these numbers is pretty easy for us, and we can get those changes to you all fairly quickly. So keep that in mind for the future -- problems we think we can solve by raising or lowering these numbers we should definitely try to do that way first.
All of this will be available for testing when the next module (after Chult) hits preview -- so not for a while yet. I know we don't normally tell you about changes like this so far in advance, but I'm hoping the benefits of the advance knowledge will outweigh any frustration in not having the changes yet!
It looks like there wasn't much unanimity on other changes, like further increases to healing depression, or all the various class suggestions. Enough is changing systemically that I think it makes the most sense to put out these system-level changes and see where things settle. But here are some of the things on my watchlist: * TR and HR have probably suffered the most, due to the piercing changes. They were pretty strong before the piercing change, and the actual legit armor pen part of piercing is still strong, so maybe it will be OK. * If it's not OK, TR have some potential easy fixes, like just increasing the base damage on Shocking Execution. * With HR, the situation is less clear. Piercing Blade base numbers (+50% damage when maxed) is already very good, so it's probably not a good idea to increase that. Also, the CC changes affect HR a lot also -- and in ways that aren't completely predictable (eg, if lots of people decide they don't need to use Elven Battle any more, could that actually help HR?). We'll need to see where HR lands before knowing what, if any, changes are needed. * GWF: Lots of people are saying GWFs are having big PvP problems. Based on our internal playtesting, the regular PvE GWF build isn't so great, but there are other builds that are quite strong. We need to keep watching, but I'm not yet convinced GWF is as terrible as people are saying. * GF: Lots of people are saying this class has too much of everything in PvP. I also don't like where the class is -- burst damage is just not the right role for this class. But nerfing their damage and leaving them with nothing would not be good either. I think GF needs a more thorough revamp. Long term, I'd hope they have a more interference/harassment type role (along, of course, with being tough), but with moderate damage rather than extremely high burst. * If too much of current PvP damage is coming from piercing, we may have a problem with it just being too hard to kill players in PvP. We have a number of options for handling this: lowering the "players take less damage" amount, making AP or Crit Sev more effective, increasing healing depression, or adjusting specific defenses if the problem is limited to just a few defensive powers. This will be another area where your feedback will be very helpful.
All that said, let me repeat that the systemic changes are big and should shake up the meta. When we see where things land, we can think about more class-specific tweaks.
The one thing that everyone did agree on was that the potion stuff is stupid. That also affects PvE -- it's just plain not fun to drink/eat/read 27 potions/foods/scrolls before every big fight (or to feel bad that you didn't). It's also something that's been messed up for a long time (and honestly it just annoys me!) so I am going to jump to that. I'll be making a pretty simple fix: all the various consumables will go into something like half a dozen categories, and you can have one thing from each category. Right now the groups I'm thinking of are Potion, Elixir (things like Wild Storm), Stronghold Food, Event Food, Invocation buff, Event non-food (mostly the scrolls), and reusables (Tymora Coin, etc.). That might change -- potion and elixir could be combined, or event and stronghold food. If people have strong opinions about having more vs. fewer categories, now is a good time to let me know. But in any case reducing from 25 things to a much smaller number (whether it be 5 or 7) should be a help.
Much thanks to Sophi for his summary graphic showing all the consumable-based buffs. It was useful for reference, and useful for showing to others to help them appreciate at a glance that the problems were real!
(Edit: corrected Sophi pronoun gender for increased gender-appropriateness!)
The potions thing is going to be a MASSIVE change. I would advocate for ALL "food" buffs to be of 1 category. So Even and SH food - cannot have more than 1.
So it would be: - 1 Potion - 1 Elixir - 1 Food (Event/SH) - 1 Invocation - 1 event non food (scrolls) - 1 reusable (coin etc)
This would cut down a MASSIVE amount of stats.
BTW - DONT forget that on the Elixirs this was already tried and never was completely fixed. On the Exlirs things like the crit severity or deflect severity would stay on, even if the elixir itself was "replaced". So an example:
Foe Hammer's Favor Elixir gives 350 deflect AND 10% severity
If you then drink Wild Storm Elixir, the 350 deflect WILL drop off, but the 10% deflect severity stays... Same with the Crit Severity on Wild Storm, you can then drink Sunlord's Gift and end up with:
10% deflect severity from Foehammers 10% crit severity from Wild Storm 350 Recovery and 5% AP from Sunlords
So they DID try to make these exclusive at one point, but failed to do it to the secondary benefit of the potions - so dont forget this too
"Armor Penetration is 60% less effective. Critical Severity is 40% less effective. Healing is 50% less effective. Players take 40% less damage."
* Note control resistance has gone away. It's being replaced by a building immunity as you get hit by control effects (currently 25%/50%/75%/Immune, but we're still tuning it on our end).
Changing these numbers is pretty easy for us, and we can get those changes to you all fairly quickly. So keep that in mind for the future -- problems we think we can solve by raising or lowering these numbers we should definitely try to do that way first.
This is awesome. Only feedback here: ARP resist should be 40% LESS effective - 60% effective. I think you may have mis understood what we were advocating for, but sounds like its easy to fix.
Crit Severity - WOOHOO! Finally!
Control Resist - I like this approach to Diminishing returns. I cant wait to test though right away I worry about HR... They will give immunity to everyone 24/7...
1) * TR and HR have probably suffered the most, due to the piercing changes. They were pretty strong before the piercing change, and the actual legit armor pen part of piercing is still strong, so maybe it will be OK.
2) * GWF: Lots of people are saying GWFs are having big PvP problems. Based on our internal playtesting, the regular PvE GWF build isn't so great, but there are other builds that are quite strong. We need to keep watching, but I'm not yet convinced GWF is as terrible as people are saying.
3) * GF: Lots of people are saying this class has too much of everything in PvP. I also don't like where the class is -- burst damage is just not the right role for this class. But nerfing their damage and leaving them with nothing would not be good either. I think GF needs a more thorough revamp. Long term, I'd hope they have a more interference/harassment type role (along, of course, with being tough), but with moderate damage rather than extremely high burst.
1) SE already has a feature where it refills AP if used under an HP threshold right? Why not just ALSO say that it deals 50% or something MORE damage when also used under that same HP %. This way its used as an effective "execution" finisher daily, not something that can just be used at 100% HP to deal massive damage.
2) I still stand pretty firm on the Destroyer Stacks being very silly. In PVE its easy to get these due to massive AOE. In PVP GWF under performs because his stack mechanic is not reliable.
I respectfully challenge your internal playtesting.. I have played with MANY Cryptic QA guys over the years and with all due respect, they just dont know. PLEASE, just bump Destroyer Stacks duration up from like 4 seconds to 8 seconds or something. (I am not talking the capstone) but the stacks gained from Focused Destroyer/Destroyer. Right now with focused destroyer we get 25% chance to gain a stack that only lasts 4 seconds. 1 Good CONTROL or "dodge" can easily mean these stacks will fall off making GWF damage moot.
This is a large problem between the QA testers and Players because players know how to counter this and play TO counter this. I dont have faith the QA team knows how to effectively counter GWF like the players do.
Bump this to 8 seconds or increase the % chance to gain a stack from Focused Destroyer, and THEN QA testing will likely mimic "player experience" and it will be EASIER to appropriately test this in the future.
3) Given the CC changes, this COULD impact GF lethality. I know 1 thing that made GF really good was Griffons Wrath in combo with BC and Daily. Well, seeing this immunity chart above, after a bullcharge + 2 GWs this would provide immunity. So id like to test this before making more suggestions.
I wanted to let everyone know where things stand now.
As I mentioned before, the plan was to remove Tenacity and replace it with a global PvP buff that everyone gets. I've built that internally, and here's what the tooltip for that buff looks like: "Armor Penetration is 60% less effective. Critical Severity is 40% less effective. Healing is 50% less effective. Players take 40% less damage."
Some comments: * Note that the armor pen reduction and "players take less damage" are just versions of what Tenacity does now. * The crit sev reduction is the requested replacement for the old Tenacity-based Critical Strike Resistance. * Note control resistance has gone away. It's being replaced by a building immunity as you get hit by control effects (currently 25%/50%/75%/Immune, but we're still tuning it on our end). It's not in the tooltip described above because it will have its own immunity-stack tooltip. * The healing depression is not a new thing, but it didn't appear in any player-facing text before.
Changing these numbers is pretty easy for us, and we can get those changes to you all fairly quickly. So keep that in mind for the future -- problems we think we can solve by raising or lowering these numbers we should definitely try to do that way first.
All of this will be available for testing when the next module (after Chult) hits preview -- so not for a while yet. I know we don't normally tell you about changes like this so far in advance, but I'm hoping the benefits of the advance knowledge will outweigh any frustration in not having the changes yet!
It looks like there wasn't much unanimity on other changes, like further increases to healing depression, or all the various class suggestions. Enough is changing systemically that I think it makes the most sense to put out these system-level changes and see where things settle. But here are some of the things on my watchlist: * TR and HR have probably suffered the most, due to the piercing changes. They were pretty strong before the piercing change, and the actual legit armor pen part of piercing is still strong, so maybe it will be OK. * If it's not OK, TR have some potential easy fixes, like just increasing the base damage on Shocking Execution. * With HR, the situation is less clear. Piercing Blade base numbers (+50% damage when maxed) is already very good, so it's probably not a good idea to increase that. Also, the CC changes affect HR a lot also -- and in ways that aren't completely predictable (eg, if lots of people decide they don't need to use Elven Battle any more, could that actually help HR?). We'll need to see where HR lands before knowing what, if any, changes are needed. * GWF: Lots of people are saying GWFs are having big PvP problems. Based on our internal playtesting, the regular PvE GWF build isn't so great, but there are other builds that are quite strong. We need to keep watching, but I'm not yet convinced GWF is as terrible as people are saying. * GF: Lots of people are saying this class has too much of everything in PvP. I also don't like where the class is -- burst damage is just not the right role for this class. But nerfing their damage and leaving them with nothing would not be good either. I think GF needs a more thorough revamp. Long term, I'd hope they have a more interference/harassment type role (along, of course, with being tough), but with moderate damage rather than extremely high burst. * If too much of current PvP damage is coming from piercing, we may have a problem with it just being too hard to kill players in PvP. We have a number of options for handling this: lowering the "players take less damage" amount, making AP or Crit Sev more effective, increasing healing depression, or adjusting specific defenses if the problem is limited to just a few defensive powers. This will be another area where your feedback will be very helpful.
All that said, let me repeat that the systemic changes are big and should shake up the meta. When we see where things land, we can think about more class-specific tweaks.
The one thing that everyone did agree on was that the potion stuff is stupid. That also affects PvE -- it's just plain not fun to drink/eat/read 27 potions/foods/scrolls before every big fight (or to feel bad that you didn't). It's also something that's been messed up for a long time (and honestly it just annoys me!) so I am going to jump to that. I'll be making a pretty simple fix: all the various consumables will go into something like half a dozen categories, and you can have one thing from each category. Right now the groups I'm thinking of are Potion, Elixir (things like Wild Storm), Stronghold Food, Event Food, Invocation buff, Event non-food (mostly the scrolls), and reusables (Tymora Coin, etc.). That might change -- potion and elixir could be combined, or event and stronghold food. If people have strong opinions about having more vs. fewer categories, now is a good time to let me know. But in any case reducing from 25 things to a much smaller number (whether it be 5 or 7) should be a help.
Much thanks to Sophi for her summary graphic showing all the consumable-based buffs. It was useful for reference, and useful for showing to others to help them appreciate at a glance that the problems were real!
Nice post. Happy too see stuff moving.
About the potions: max 5 categories in my opinion. Potion/food/scroll/Invocation buff/reusables. I could live without the scrolls.
"* Note control resistance has gone away. It's being replaced by a building immunity as you get hit by control effects (currently 25%/50%/75%/Immune, but we're still tuning it on our end). It's not in the tooltip described above because it will have its own immunity-stack tooltip."
What will happen to all the control resistance stats on artifacts etc and boons? And how long would they be immune? I can see this mess lots with CW/HRs. And how would it work on powers like CB? Do you get immune the longer you stay in it? Or what? :P
What will happen to all the control resistance stats on artifacts etc and boons?
Control resist will still exist as a stat in the game. You just won't get any as part of the aforementioned "You're in PvP now!" buff. But whatever you have from gear will still work same as always. Instead of Tenacity-based control resist, there will be the stacking immunity.
Separate post @rgutscheradev PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE nerf Endless Consumption. The consensus on this is 100% unanimous.
Right NOW: Endless has about a 30% chance (hard to know exact #s but its around 1/3rd chance) to TRIPLE your heal from lifesteal...
This needs to be changed... Im not a fan of an ICD but if you need to put one, whatever. I would RATHER just see this provide like 5% more lifesteal CHANCE though.... Just make it simple, make it so even lower geared players can get a decent % chance to steal - because without a SH Lifesteal boon it can be hard to get enough lifesteal.
But PLEASE do something to Endless Consumption. This is just WAY too good, it essentially DOUBLES your lifesteal (since its a 1/3rd chance to triple your heal).
What will happen to all the control resistance stats on artifacts etc and boons?
Control resist will still exist as a stat in the game. You just won't get any as part of the aforementioned "You're in PvP now!" buff. But whatever you have from gear will still work same as always. Instead of Tenacity-based control resist, there will be the stacking immunity.
I updated my post, I guess u responded before I was finished.
How long would they be immune? I can see this mess lots with CW/HRs. And how would it work on powers like CB? Do you get immune the longer you stay in it? Or what? :P
BTW - DONT forget that on the Elixirs this was already tried and never was completely fixed.
Yah, the potions system has all kinds of bits of brokenness in it. My personal favorite is that you can drink, say, a Superior Potion of Force and then an Enhanced Superior Potion of Force (the Alchemy version) and the second one will negate the first, but not take effect itself. So you end up with no buff at all!
Ultimately, I think a lot of the bugs came from an attempt to make the potion system figure out what you "really" wanted (trying to keep the 'best' of two similar potions, making sure you never drank a worse potion while a better one was active, etc.). I'm planning to eliminate all the "A.I." and just say "you decided to drink it, you must have wanted it!" I think then the system as a whole will be easier to understand, more responsive to what you want, and much less bug-prone, and any losses from people occasionally drinking a potion they didn't mean to will be more than made up for by all that.
BTW - DONT forget that on the Elixirs this was already tried and never was completely fixed.
Yah, the potions system has all kinds of bits of brokenness in it. My personal favorite is that you can drink, say, a Superior Potion of Force and then an Enhanced Superior Potion of Force (the Alchemy version) and the second one will negate the first, but not take effect itself. So you end up with no buff at all!
Ultimately, I think a lot of the bugs came from an attempt to make the potion system figure out what you "really" wanted (trying to keep the 'best' of two similar potions, making sure you never drank a worse potion while a better one was active, etc.). I'm planning to eliminate all the "A.I." and just say "you decided to drink it, you must have wanted it!" I think then the system as a whole will be easier to understand, more responsive to what you want, and much less bug-prone, and any losses from people occasionally drinking a potion they didn't mean to will be more than made up for by all that.
Completely agree. Keep it simple. You drink it, that was your choice, if it removes a more powerful one, thats the risk of potions, drink responsibly!
I do want to point out 2 things: 1) GWF stacking is really bad. Please please adjust this. Destroyer stacks or the chance to gain them from Focused Destroyer needs to be changed... Its in a very bad place atm. Its 25% chance to gain a 4 sec stack.
We need a better % chance (like 50% or 100%) OR we need more duration (like 8 seconds) but the 25% for 4 second thing is WAY too harsh.
2) endless consumption needs a rework. PLEASE look at this too. Essentially doubles your healing.
1
starheretic70Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 52Arc User
edited July 2017
It's not by attacking healing depression, I would say zero healing depression. BUT When a mage puts on valhalla set and he or she is tanky, less people die because he or she can't kill and they blame healing
I would go for bigger dps and more healing so the hp bar would go up and down
+1 on the Endless Consumption nerf even though I rely upon it heavily as an SW.
And pleeeease do not forget to adjust the SW class This along with pvp pot changes would indirectly squash the SW class at being effective at much of anything in pvp.
We have been the weakest class on the pvp totem pole since mod4. Around mod10 a dev who only worked a few months scammed us all with a pretty weak buff and left. The class is closer than it was but still falls short of overall being dps or control or support competitive with other classes. Dots are a challenging damage source in pvp. Please do not forget about us! There is plenty of good discussion in the SW forum.
* Note control resistance has gone away. It's being replaced by a building immunity as you get hit by control effects (currently 25%/50%/75%/Immune, but we're still tuning it on our end). It's not in the tooltip described above because it will have its own immunity-stack tooltip.
A couple of questions/points on CC:
(1) Does the 25-50-75-Immune cycle of resist mean that if I get constantly by CCs (e.g. trapper, or combination of CW and TR), then I will also be constantly cycling through 25-50-75-Immunity? If everyone benefits from this, I can't see how control resist (or elven battle) could play any role.
(2) How are control-based Area of Effect powers affected by this change? Specifically, I am thinking of Smokebomb - perhaps the most used CC-power in pvp.
If you are going to address GF dealing high damage then you absolutely need to take a look at the level of survability DPS classes can achieve which often is outrageously overpowered like combat HR.
The new aproach should then be=
GF/OP= rework them so they're tankier and give them medium damage.
DPS= very high damage (more than now), low survability (much much lower than now) and higher base movement speed to resemble their much lighter (and weaker) armour.
You need to see that from both perspectives, if you consider that tanks dealing high damage is not right then please think about dps classes flat out tanking and certain builds are nearly unkillable, that is just not right.
That way, pvp actually is pvp, players will kill each other instead of stalemating, combat HR killed the HB SW? nice, now the GWF will murder the weakened HR.
Dps clases shouldn't have extremely high levels of survability.
Now you see the double standard from people on the forums? the don't want GF to deal high burst damage but their dps toons have a degree of survability most tanks would be envious of.
Comments
I will say it once more crushing roots and spamming powers with root from hunter nothing can do the control resistance. Same and for courage breaker from tr. THAT is not responsible the cc general since with good control resistance you can easily resist an opressor ( supposed ignore and some of the tenacity).
buffs are also out of discussion when the balance meter is now GFs.
In a world without gfs and with nerfed tr/hr, GWFs would be out of whack. While this might be true i would like to wait before.
So lets bring few classes down to earth (primary GFs) and then lets talk about what can be nerfed.
im ok with HRs changes (i play one) but not when a tank (GFs and to a certain degree OPs) can deal the damage they deal.
FEEDBACK:
tenacity has to go before mod 13 or mod 12/b
Over the years, it has been sometimes as relatively unintrusive as text spam. I forget what the HR PvP armor set bonus proc was called, but things like it have created confusion as the floating text would show up all the time, even though it wouldn't be doing anything if you were not fighting.
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Archer's_Profound_Leather_Armor
The bigger complaint players tend to have was first seen with the Sharandar boon Fey Thistle, so some of us still refer to it as "the Fey Thistle bug", even though that one was eventually found and fixed and we only see it with newer effects. If your character has a boon or other effect active that will create damage on deflect, it will put you in combat constantly. You can't emote because you'll be interrupted. You can't stand still because TRs will bop in place, GWFs will put their sword up and down, etc.
Anyway, despite Fey Thistle itself having been fixed eons ago, the same bug crops up every single time yet another damage-on-deflect proc is introduced. This is frustrating. I don't think boons/powers/etc. should be fixed piecemeal, and it would be more appropriate to look at how the game decides what it should be deflecting, or at least attempting to deflect since so many of the attempts accomplish nothing other than to proc out of combat and probably use server resources to do so.
Also related, it's possible to deflect a friendly effect that you probably don't want to, like a heal. This is probably bad.
I think deflection should probably only be applied to hostile/harmful effects, not as a blanket to everything, which is how it appears externally. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to restrict it to damage sources, but it might be, especially if that ended up being the simplest way to address all the issues at once. But I'm still unhappy about DCs only being able to Cleanse DoT effects and not control effects, which was v.useful, imo. I feel this was a lazy and thoughtless way of correcting the issue of accidentally Cleansing friendly effects. I don't really want deflection to get treated with the exact same heavy hand.
But... I am thinking it's possible that @rgutscheradev might be our man to fix some of these things once and for all. I believe in you!
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
DC overhealing/AS - I would agree some modifications should be done here. For instance, the DC faithful capstone the "stored up heals" should probably have some sort of "range" on them, so you cant fight at mid, store up heals, and then head to a different node to "1v1" on that node, then all the sudden "pop - full HP" from the DC capstone. Also Empowered AS providing a sheer # off EACH attack is kinda silly as any DOT that is lower then that attack, or quick attacks for less damage each hit get penalized FAR too much. So this could have some small tweaks as well.
But when you say make heal depression 90% instead of 50%... That is just WAY OVERKILL man... I know what you are saying and why, and maybe you think its an easier "lever" for them to do rather than actually nerf the things that NEED to be nerfed (like Endless Consumption or the Lion Mount heal) but this is just silly.
As for GFs - I would agree. Right now they excel in what seems like every area. They have good burst damage, good damage mitigation (shield), strong control, decent mobility (with ITF) and also great "support" they provide (ITF) or even Knights Valor (which nobody uses but should be a cornerstone IMO of the GF class).
So what I think a GF should be? A great Tank, Buffer, Controller but the GF should lack "damage". I dont want to propose this or that changes... Because I am no GF expert (though I used to be WAY back when) and some of the simple solutions like (undo the weapon damage increase paladins/GFs got) might nerf paladins too much...
What I see as an underlying theme with ALOT of this though? Stat inflation... I STILL would LOVE to see a NW PVP event, or enable us to test this in private Que... where we turn OFF all boons and dont use ANY potions/consumables
When this is done, It actually solves a lot of issues as you cant "have it all" like you can now. Right now you can have high power, high ARP, Lifesteal, HP, deflect, etc. You can "have it all" due to all theboons.
If you remove all that power creep : boons+pots/food it removes a TON of stats and strips classes down to more of their "base" class which I actually THINK alleviates some of these issues addressed above. maybe it doesnt, but atleast classes would have to choose and build weighing pros vs cons where you now have a touch choice to balance offensive vs defensive stats.
Anyways, its probably a pipedream but that (to me) just makes the most sense of them all:
1) remove all boons from PVP (besides PVP campaign)
2) remove all potions, elixirs, food, etc. from PVP
3) Modify Crit Resist so it reduces crit severity - not total crit damage
4) Due to losing significant sources of ARP (from boons), we no longer need "ARP Resist" in PVP.
5) Move tenacity DR and tenacity CC resist to character sheet and remove "tenacity" as a stat on ALL gear.
Then my next 2 "wish list" would involve items:
1) Fix Feytouch Weapon Enchant (its super super broken)
2) Make negation reduce incoming damage RATHER THAN provide DR %
Doing these, would remove a TON of the barriers to entry for PVP, remove some class imbalance issues and fix some item issues, nerf self healing, make crits better in PVP, etc. etc.
It addresses ALL the BIG issues in PVP.
1. No you should be rewarded for grinding out all of those campaigns.
2. Just allow normal potions and vault of piety potions. But exclude all of the guild food, summer festival food, master crafting potions and potions of heroism.
3. Totally agree it would make crit actually useful which would be fantastic.
4. Refer to 1.
5. Totally agree. 100% agree with that one.
In response to your wish list:
1. Its OP only because its active seemingly permanently. If they made it 10 or 15 out of 20 like other enchantments it would be balanced.
2. Yes it should be incoming damage but certainly not 30% less incoming damage I would suggest 15% if they wanted to rework it.
well, here is the problem. PVP will never, and can never be a competitive environment when you allow for literally tens of thousands of stats that new players and many "average/casual" players do not have. If this still doesnt sit right with you, I dont blame you, but let me give you another example.
Lets say, they release a brand new artifact weapon with a .01% chance to drop but its weapon damage is over 50,000... And you just so happened to have it drop after farming it over and over! Well, on one hand you "earned it" you should get to have that in PVP right? On the other hand, you now 1 shot everybody you meet in PVP - making it an unfair place for even the most geared players....
But you see the problem? Just because you "worked hard" for something doesnt mean its a good idea to let that something impact PVP - where players should have a more "level" or "even" field of play. The same could be said about Lion mounts, or heck, even companions with Bondings! "I worked hard to get those bondings, I should be rewarded in PVP by being able to use them!"
This has actually been the case during MANY modules of this game. Mod 0 we had "Tenebrous Enchants" that dealt "piercing damage" and you could hit someone with 1 at will and Tenebrous could chunk them for 1/3rd of their life unblockable, unmitigated. They cost ALOT (millions of AD) but made PVP an unfair place for many. It became a place of "haves" vs "have nots"
Or module 2 and the Emblem Artifact. It had no ICD on the heal. Well I paid 6 mil AD for the GREEN one and even more to get it to max... I worked hard for that AD and to have that! But it made PVP unfair - again "haves" vs "havenots" because Emblem would make you unkillable vs your counterparts making PVP again an unfair place...
See - "working hard" for something doesnt mean its a good idea to allow it in a PVP environment. In fact, PVP should be more equalized so that all the stuff people "work hard for" matters LESS (not zero, but LESS) so that a newer player to the game can level up, hit 70 have blue gear and play PVP without FIRST having to spend months doing dailies to get boons and without first being forced to join a high ranking SH guild just so he can PVP. Without first having to go get a Lion Mount, or having to get or do XYZ just so he can play PVP.
This is why PVP is in the state it currently is! The barriers to entry are too high, preventing all but the MOST geared PVPers from playing it. Preventing even many geared PVE players from doing it. The new lvl 70 doesnt stand even the slightest chance against a "best in slot" player. In fact, you could line up 100 (yes 100) new level 70s against a best in slot player and I would put my money on that ONE best in slot PVP player, who has the boons, has tenacity, has everything. Even if you gave those new players tenacity gear, they have low HP, low damage, low DR, low lifesteal, etc. etc.
The "power gap" (not the stat power) between even an AVERAGE player and a best in slot PVP player is massive. You could have an entire team of "average" item level players not be able to take down 1 "best in slot" PVP player... This was not always the case. Even with the broken stuff I mentioned above, you couldnt 5v1. You COULD get a fresh 70, gear him in blues, que for PVP and actually make an impact in the match. You wouldnt be able to 1v1 a guy with tenebrous, but you could 2v1 or 3v1 him... This isnt true today. PUGs get absolutely wrecked because they are missing tens of thousands of stats - all brought on by #1 BOONS and #2 POTIONS/CONSUMABLES.
Removing these, and giving everyone "tenacity" without having to gear for it, gets rid of TONS of "barrier to entry" for PVP and makes it a much more competitive place for ALL!
LAST COMMENT about boons: If you do remove tenacity on gear, and if you do give it to everyone free of gear, then for many classes, much of the "BEST PVP GEAR" will actually come from PVE now. In PVE ALL your boons and stuff you worked for helps you. So in a sense, to get the best PVP gear, almost still REQUIRES you have the boons because itll require you to run PVE to get... However unlike what it is today, the difference between someone that has the boons and therefore gets the best PVE gear for PVP.... and someone who just picks up "average" gear, well that "gap" would be much smaller - which is how it should be for PVP.
As for Feytouched - I didnt say its OP or not, I said its broken as in NOT WORKING CORRECTLY
Negation - I would be fine with a reduction in overall effectiveness. In fact 30% DR reduces damage FAR more than 15% inc damage reduction, but you cant bypass it with RI%, so maybe 15% would be fair.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Removing boons + pots removes all the power creep that drastically contributes to all these numbers. Thats my solution to this problem.
In all honesty, heal depression is just ANOTHER "barrier" that separates PVE and PVP. A perfect example is life steal. PVE players dont stack NEARLY as much self healing as they do in PVP... Why? Because they already have plenty of sources of self healing AND its not cut in half. So PVP players need to stack way MORE self healing because all healing is halved.
What this does is creates a "gap" between what PVE players use, and PVP players. Which means if PVE players go into PVP, they likely have less self healing "stuff" because they dont need as much in PVE....
point being. I still KEEP coming back to:
1) remove boons from PVP (besides the PVP campaign boons)
2) remove consumable buffs (potions, food, elixirs, etc.)
3) Transfer all tenacity DR, Crit Resist, and CC resist to character sheet (off the gear!)
4) Re-work crit resist so it ONLY impacts crit severity, not total damage
5) due to losing all the boon sources of ARP, we no longer need ARP resist. The only sources of ARP would be: Ability score, Gear, Enchants, and Artifacts. Which now to really "MAX" ARP/RI% you will have to be willing to sacrifice other stats - which means its a tradeoff (how it should be).
Those 5 things would completely overhaul PVP. Less healing, less self healing, less stat inflation, less GEAR GAP between new players, average players, PVE players and PVP players. It makes PVP a much more competitive place. You STILL have builds and gear that matter. Enchants matter, artifacts matter, gear matters, etc...
But it makes that "gap" between a BEST Geared player and an "average" player maybe just a few thousand stats, rather than tens of thousands of stats. And as someone already pointed out, stats SYNERGIZE with eachother, so more stats isnt a "linear" gain but an exponential one... Where more power/crit/arp all = more damage which ALSO = more self healing from lifesteal.
We need these for PVP first. Then we can start looking at adjusting a few things (if needed) on each class for PVP. But this would fix A LOT of the PVP issues.
I wanted to let everyone know where things stand now.
As I mentioned before, the plan was to remove Tenacity and replace it with a global PvP buff that everyone gets. I've built that internally, and here's what the tooltip for that buff looks like:
"Armor Penetration is 60% less effective.
Critical Severity is 40% less effective.
Healing is 50% less effective.
Players take 40% less damage."
Some comments:
* Note that the armor pen reduction and "players take less damage" are just versions of what Tenacity does now.
* The crit sev reduction is the requested replacement for the old Tenacity-based Critical Strike Resistance.
* Note control resistance has gone away. It's being replaced by a building immunity as you get hit by control effects (currently 25%/50%/75%/Immune, but we're still tuning it on our end). It's not in the tooltip described above because it will have its own immunity-stack tooltip.
* The healing depression is not a new thing, but it didn't appear in any player-facing text before.
Changing these numbers is pretty easy for us, and we can get those changes to you all fairly quickly. So keep that in mind for the future -- problems we think we can solve by raising or lowering these numbers we should definitely try to do that way first.
All of this will be available for testing when the next module (after Chult) hits preview -- so not for a while yet. I know we don't normally tell you about changes like this so far in advance, but I'm hoping the benefits of the advance knowledge will outweigh any frustration in not having the changes yet!
It looks like there wasn't much unanimity on other changes, like further increases to healing depression, or all the various class suggestions. Enough is changing systemically that I think it makes the most sense to put out these system-level changes and see where things settle. But here are some of the things on my watchlist:
* TR and HR have probably suffered the most, due to the piercing changes. They were pretty strong before the piercing change, and the actual legit armor pen part of piercing is still strong, so maybe it will be OK.
* If it's not OK, TR have some potential easy fixes, like just increasing the base damage on Shocking Execution.
* With HR, the situation is less clear. Piercing Blade base numbers (+50% damage when maxed) is already very good, so it's probably not a good idea to increase that. Also, the CC changes affect HR a lot also -- and in ways that aren't completely predictable (eg, if lots of people decide they don't need to use Elven Battle any more, could that actually help HR?). We'll need to see where HR lands before knowing what, if any, changes are needed.
* GWF: Lots of people are saying GWFs are having big PvP problems. Based on our internal playtesting, the regular PvE GWF build isn't so great, but there are other builds that are quite strong. We need to keep watching, but I'm not yet convinced GWF is as terrible as people are saying.
* GF: Lots of people are saying this class has too much of everything in PvP. I also don't like where the class is -- burst damage is just not the right role for this class. But nerfing their damage and leaving them with nothing would not be good either. I think GF needs a more thorough revamp. Long term, I'd hope they have a more interference/harassment type role (along, of course, with being tough), but with moderate damage rather than extremely high burst.
* If too much of current PvP damage is coming from piercing, we may have a problem with it just being too hard to kill players in PvP. We have a number of options for handling this: lowering the "players take less damage" amount, making AP or Crit Sev more effective, increasing healing depression, or adjusting specific defenses if the problem is limited to just a few defensive powers. This will be another area where your feedback will be very helpful.
All that said, let me repeat that the systemic changes are big and should shake up the meta. When we see where things land, we can think about more class-specific tweaks.
The one thing that everyone did agree on was that the potion stuff is stupid. That also affects PvE -- it's just plain not fun to drink/eat/read 27 potions/foods/scrolls before every big fight (or to feel bad that you didn't). It's also something that's been messed up for a long time (and honestly it just annoys me!) so I am going to jump to that. I'll be making a pretty simple fix: all the various consumables will go into something like half a dozen categories, and you can have one thing from each category. Right now the groups I'm thinking of are Potion, Elixir (things like Wild Storm), Stronghold Food, Event Food, Invocation buff, Event non-food (mostly the scrolls), and reusables (Tymora Coin, etc.). That might change -- potion and elixir could be combined, or event and stronghold food. If people have strong opinions about having more vs. fewer categories, now is a good time to let me know. But in any case reducing from 25 things to a much smaller number (whether it be 5 or 7) should be a help.
Much thanks to Sophi for his summary graphic showing all the consumable-based buffs. It was useful for reference, and useful for showing to others to help them appreciate at a glance that the problems were real!
(Edit: corrected Sophi pronoun gender for increased gender-appropriateness!)
Kudos @rgutscheradev - YOU ROCK!
The potions thing is going to be a MASSIVE change. I would advocate for ALL "food" buffs to be of 1 category. So Even and SH food - cannot have more than 1.
So it would be:
- 1 Potion
- 1 Elixir
- 1 Food (Event/SH)
- 1 Invocation
- 1 event non food (scrolls)
- 1 reusable (coin etc)
This would cut down a MASSIVE amount of stats.
BTW - DONT forget that on the Elixirs this was already tried and never was completely fixed. On the Exlirs things like the crit severity or deflect severity would stay on, even if the elixir itself was "replaced". So an example:
Foe Hammer's Favor Elixir gives 350 deflect AND 10% severity
If you then drink Wild Storm Elixir, the 350 deflect WILL drop off, but the 10% deflect severity stays...
Same with the Crit Severity on Wild Storm, you can then drink Sunlord's Gift and end up with:
10% deflect severity from Foehammers
10% crit severity from Wild Storm
350 Recovery and 5% AP from Sunlords
So they DID try to make these exclusive at one point, but failed to do it to the secondary benefit of the potions - so dont forget this too
This is awesome. Only feedback here:
ARP resist should be 40% LESS effective - 60% effective. I think you may have mis understood what we were advocating for, but sounds like its easy to fix.
Crit Severity - WOOHOO! Finally!
Control Resist - I like this approach to Diminishing returns. I cant wait to test though right away I worry about HR... They will give immunity to everyone 24/7...
1) SE already has a feature where it refills AP if used under an HP threshold right? Why not just ALSO say that it deals 50% or something MORE damage when also used under that same HP %. This way its used as an effective "execution" finisher daily, not something that can just be used at 100% HP to deal massive damage.
2) I still stand pretty firm on the Destroyer Stacks being very silly. In PVE its easy to get these due to massive AOE. In PVP GWF under performs because his stack mechanic is not reliable.
I respectfully challenge your internal playtesting.. I have played with MANY Cryptic QA guys over the years and with all due respect, they just dont know. PLEASE, just bump Destroyer Stacks duration up from like 4 seconds to 8 seconds or something. (I am not talking the capstone) but the stacks gained from Focused Destroyer/Destroyer. Right now with focused destroyer we get 25% chance to gain a stack that only lasts 4 seconds. 1 Good CONTROL or "dodge" can easily mean these stacks will fall off making GWF damage moot.
This is a large problem between the QA testers and Players because players know how to counter this and play TO counter this. I dont have faith the QA team knows how to effectively counter GWF like the players do.
Bump this to 8 seconds or increase the % chance to gain a stack from Focused Destroyer, and THEN QA testing will likely mimic "player experience" and it will be EASIER to appropriately test this in the future.
3) Given the CC changes, this COULD impact GF lethality. I know 1 thing that made GF really good was Griffons Wrath in combo with BC and Daily. Well, seeing this immunity chart above, after a bullcharge + 2 GWs this would provide immunity. So id like to test this before making more suggestions.
About the potions: max 5 categories in my opinion. Potion/food/scroll/Invocation buff/reusables. I could live without the scrolls.
"* Note control resistance has gone away. It's being replaced by a building immunity as you get hit by control effects (currently 25%/50%/75%/Immune, but we're still tuning it on our end). It's not in the tooltip described above because it will have its own immunity-stack tooltip."
What will happen to all the control resistance stats on artifacts etc and boons? And how long would they be immune? I can see this mess lots with CW/HRs. And how would it work on powers like CB? Do you get immune the longer you stay in it? Or what? :P
Im thinking CW/HR will need some exceptions here.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE nerf Endless Consumption. The consensus on this is 100% unanimous.
Right NOW: Endless has about a 30% chance (hard to know exact #s but its around 1/3rd chance) to TRIPLE your heal from lifesteal...
This needs to be changed... Im not a fan of an ICD but if you need to put one, whatever. I would RATHER just see this provide like 5% more lifesteal CHANCE though.... Just make it simple, make it so even lower geared players can get a decent % chance to steal - because without a SH Lifesteal boon it can be hard to get enough lifesteal.
But PLEASE do something to Endless Consumption. This is just WAY too good, it essentially DOUBLES your lifesteal (since its a 1/3rd chance to triple your heal).
How long would they be immune? I can see this mess lots with CW/HRs. And how would it work on powers like CB? Do you get immune the longer you stay in it? Or what? :P
Im thinking CW/HR will need some exceptions here.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Ultimately, I think a lot of the bugs came from an attempt to make the potion system figure out what you "really" wanted (trying to keep the 'best' of two similar potions, making sure you never drank a worse potion while a better one was active, etc.). I'm planning to eliminate all the "A.I." and just say "you decided to drink it, you must have wanted it!" I think then the system as a whole will be easier to understand, more responsive to what you want, and much less bug-prone, and any losses from people occasionally drinking a potion they didn't mean to will be more than made up for by all that.
I do want to point out 2 things:
1) GWF stacking is really bad. Please please adjust this. Destroyer stacks or the chance to gain them from Focused Destroyer needs to be changed... Its in a very bad place atm. Its 25% chance to gain a 4 sec stack.
We need a better % chance (like 50% or 100%) OR we need more duration (like 8 seconds) but the 25% for 4 second thing is WAY too harsh.
2) endless consumption needs a rework. PLEASE look at this too. Essentially doubles your healing.
BUT
When a mage puts on valhalla set and he or she is tanky, less people die because he or she can't kill
and they blame healing
I would go for bigger dps and more healing so the hp bar would go up and down
+1 on the Endless Consumption nerf even though I rely upon it heavily as an SW.
And pleeeease do not forget to adjust the SW class
We have been the weakest class on the pvp totem pole since mod4. Around mod10 a dev who only worked a few months scammed us all with a pretty weak buff and left. The class is closer than it was but still falls short of overall being dps or control or support competitive with other classes. Dots are a challenging damage source in pvp. Please do not forget about us! There is plenty of good discussion in the SW forum.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
(1) Does the 25-50-75-Immune cycle of resist mean that if I get constantly by CCs (e.g. trapper, or combination of CW and TR), then I will also be constantly cycling through 25-50-75-Immunity? If everyone benefits from this, I can't see how control resist (or elven battle) could play any role.
(2) How are control-based Area of Effect powers affected by this change? Specifically, I am thinking of Smokebomb - perhaps the most used CC-power in pvp.
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
If you are going to address GF dealing high damage then you absolutely need to take a look at the level of survability DPS classes can achieve which often is outrageously overpowered like combat HR.
The new aproach should then be=
GF/OP= rework them so they're tankier and give them medium damage.
DPS= very high damage (more than now), low survability (much much lower than now) and higher base movement speed to resemble their much lighter (and weaker) armour.
You need to see that from both perspectives, if you consider that tanks dealing high damage is not right then please think about dps classes flat out tanking and certain builds are nearly unkillable, that is just not right.
That way, pvp actually is pvp, players will kill each other instead of stalemating, combat HR killed the HB SW? nice, now the GWF will murder the weakened HR.
Dps clases shouldn't have extremely high levels of survability.
Now you see the double standard from people on the forums? the don't want GF to deal high burst damage but their dps toons have a degree of survability most tanks would be envious of.