Been seeing a lot of "when so-and-so hits 70 and tries to PvP....". I'm thinking most new players have already tried PvP before they hit 70 and already have made a judgement on it. Of course they will most likely try it at 70 and then be convinced that their judgement was correct.
Actually level 70 pvp was a pretty rude awakening for me when I first entered it. This was around mod 8-9, but it definitely was a huge change going from the level 50 pvp to the level 60 pvp, and then it just fell off a cliff in level 70 pvp.
So you would want to introduce something like a kink or an inflection point in the stat function to do two things if I understand correctly:
(1) Make low ilevel players "catch up" faster with increasing marginal returns to investing in a stat, when ilevel is below X baseline (in example 8)
(2) Introduce decreasing marginal returns to investing in a stat after X.
It could be interesting. In your example effectively the power gap goes from over 40% to about 10% (if power if linear); correct?
One problem would be for players under level X. If you compare BETWEEN guilds which differ in SH boons, imagine the following example where both player are 6k:
Player 1: +32k HP boon ---> effective HP boost: +43k HP mitigated by the increase in item level (how much would the increase be?) Player 2: + 0 HP boon ---> effective HP boost = 0 HP
So you would want to introduce something like a kink or an inflection point in the stat function to do two things if I understand correctly:
(1) Make low ilevel players "catch up" faster with increasing marginal returns to investing in a stat, when ilevel is below X baseline (in example 8)
(2) Introduce decreasing marginal returns to investing in a stat after X.
It could be interesting. In your example effectively the power gap goes from over 40% to about 10% (if power if linear); correct?
One problem would be for players under level X. If you compare BETWEEN guilds which differ in SH boons, imagine the following example where both player are 6k:
Player 1: +32k HP boon ---> effective HP boost: +43k HP mitigated by the increase in item level (how much would the increase be?) Player 2: + 0 HP boon ---> effective HP boost = 0 HP
Cant tell if you are responding to me or not, but I will assume you are?
It sounds like you have the right idea.
A 6k Player who has (just picking #s out of thin air) 8k Power ques for PVP and goes against a 14k GS player who has 25k power. (Note: This would be ALL stats including HP - but HP wouldnt be as straight forward, Power is just a good example stat).
6k Player formula would be: (8k / 6k) * 8,000 = 10,666 power
14k would be: (8k/14k) * 25,000 = 14,285 power
Thus more "equalizing" the amount of power you receive.
So what you would "weigh" as a "best in slot" player is stat increase OVER the item level increase... Since technically every item level gain would give a more severe negative "multiplier".
This idea isnt fully fleshed out, just trying to get some communication around it.
EITHER this, or maybe you "peg" everyone at like 80% of MAX ITEM LEVEL. So something like (14k?)
So the 6k Player with 8k power would be: 14k/6k * Stat = 18,666 Power
@rgutscheradev Permanent solo queue is a good choice. In case you implement this long needed mode to PVP, PLEASE change the pop-up window wich actually leads to syncing queues. No information about how much player allready excepted, maybe just one small simple button to accept the match or not, maybe delay that window for the player taking part in the same match - I want a random choice and get rid of those "sync-nerds".
The most important point to get player much earlier into PVP and attract more player in general for this game, wich has a pretty nice combatsystem is not the change of tenacity, and all that stuff you mention above btw. You need to downgear PVP massively ! Boons, SH-Boons, legendary mounts, insigniaboni, weapon enchants, buffpotions, overloads have to go ! You will have less issues to balance classes arround PVP and you will have much more balanced matches in a hole, the experince will be much better, since gear gap is no issue that way. A seasonal PVP-gear providing plus some PVP boons, maybe revive the PVP campain, that´s it. Let the privat queue be the place to compete on a pro level, fully stuffed -all sorts of toys accepted, implement an arena 1vs1, 2vs2, 3vs3 with attractive rewards and a leaderboard for those player. The normal PVP should be equalized ! I take part to get my daily rewards, maybe level my campainboons, get experience, have fun. The ones that enjoy PVP will try to level up, improve their toon and maybe step into arena/privat queue. Atm. you have a handfull of veterans , scratching and biting if you try to argue, understandabley they want to keep that gear and the advantage having spend >100 Mio AD to get there. Those player need rewards and a seperat playground, like arena PVP etc. Btw. you got that equalized PVP allready to some degree - < 70 PVP. All you have to do is create one gear you either may buy for tarmalune bars or get from a campain (no slots, no extras), 4 pieces of armor, one weapon/shield, a PVP specific code/score to be allowed to queue and no way to switch that gear in a match, done.
@rgutscheradev #1 Please allow us to queue for domination with more than 10 players. We cannot do full mayhem fights with no space to move without this function. #2 Please allow the queue leader to switch a player's team causing them to respawn during a match. #3 It would be nice if the queue leader had an easy way to instantly end the match, while keeping the queue group together. #4 Please let us queue for domination with only one player. I tried to show a friend at his PC how nodes work, but ended up having to join the queue with him needlessly just so he could see what a node looks like. #5 Probably not feasible for mod 12, but allowing us to queue for a super tiny room with training dummies (like trade of blades) in the private pvp queue would be really helpful for testing. Some people have to create guilds on preview just to get some alone time with a training dummy. #6 Probably not feasible for mod 12, but it would be extra super awesome to allow the queue leader to have control over the match parameters like:
Points required to win
Capture speed
Tenacity for everyone
Armor pen resist for everyone (adjust that 50% buff we have right now)
Control resist for everyone
Crit resist for everyone
Select the pvp map (could just be that each checkbox in the private queue is a map instead of random)
Healing suppression for everyone
Multiply everyone's damage by this number (decimal number greater than 0 less than 10)
Multiply everyone's stamina gain by this number
Disable boons (on/off)
Disable insignias (on/off)
Disable active companions (on/off)
Disable summoned companions (on/off)
Disable drains (on/off)
Disable vision/vanishing effects on items (on/off)
Disable potions (on/off)
Enable 0 stats mode (on/off) (sets all stats to 0)
Enable low gravity (on/off) (yes we love Illusionist's Gambit)
Enable one-shot mode (on/off) (everyone has one hit point)
Enable no CC mode (on/off) (everyone has full CC immunity)
Removing campaign boons, sh boons insignias etc is a horrible suggestion. Im not sure why people want that. After the grind to unlock them why would it be removed from pvp? We unlocked it and got insignias for a reason smh. Only reason we pve'd. Didn't do it for fun like most of you.
That is why it would be better as an option for the queue leader to decide (in private queue only). We had a pvp tourny earlier within our alliance, but it ended up being an unreasonable landslide, since everyone in the helm guild regardless of how good their gear was would stomp the gauntlets, since we had the giant guild boons. We couldn't even disable these boons temporarily for the sake of fairness. The only solution we found (but didn't end up using) was to kick players from the guild, and re-invite them.
Removing campaign boons, sh boons insignias etc is a horrible suggestion. Im not sure why people want that. After the grind to unlock them why would it be removed from pvp? We unlocked it and got insignias for a reason smh. Only reason we pve'd. Didn't do it for fun like most of you.
The reason people are for this, is its a means to achieve a reduction in "Gear gap" and it also removes some of the "cancerous" things in PVP - such as too much self healing.
Its hard to understand how good PVP can be, if you only started playing NW in the last year or two... but when you go back far enough to the pre-module days, or even up until maybe mod 3, PVP had an extremely healthy community of players. The "gear gap" between an average player and a "best in slot" PVP player was not as large as it was today AND self healing was VERY VERY limited. Mod 0/1 days you only had regen ticks every 3 seconds to keep you alive. So DPS mattered! Get more DPS than "heal per second" an you could kill someone.
now we have so much self healing due to things like lifesteal and insignias, that DPS doesnt matter, its all about burst... So removing boons and insignias removes a HUGE amount of self healing from PVP.
it also removes a LARGE amount of "gear gap" that prevents PVE players and new players from trying PVP and enjoying it.
The thought process here is that in order to get the "best gear" for PVP, you still need to do PVE thus need the boons to do the PVE content. So removing this stuff from PVP doesnt actually remove the need to get it, it just removes the "power advantage" you gain from those things directly in PVP. (this, coming from a guy who has a max SH btw, so I cant be accused of asking for something so I dont have to farm it myself).
And yes, I agree with what your sentiment gets at - you dont want to be FORCED to PVE to be able to play PVP and this is another problem... You cant MERELY hit 70, grab some blue gear and hop into PVP. Its a joke. A level 11 has a better chance fighting a lvl 60, than a fresh 70 has against a "best in slot" 70... this is merely an illustration but it is still true... There is no "skill" a fresh 70 can have, to overcome the MASSIVE gear gap that exists in PVP right now.... that gear gap is the biggest barrier to entry in this game, and its why less and less are entering PVP and over time more and more are leaving PVP (and this game)...
barriers to entry are good for business as it keeps competition LOW... barriers to entry for PVP in an online game are BAD as it does the same thing - keeps competition LOW... When there is LOW competition in a game for a long period of time (like we have in NW) people leave... Which is where we are at today...
Solution? Remove barriers to entry. One of the PRIMARY barriers to entry are all the boons.
I'm in a level 20 SH as well, and I understand the "gear gap thing" but I think it could be taken in a different direction. As someone with all boons except cloaked ascend w/e, not having my boons/insignias is pretty much a waste of time I spent getting them and huge waste of AD for all purple insignias.
I haven't been suggesting much but all I can think of is adding options before queueing for pvp such as like "Regular Match"(boons insignias etc) and a mode where boons and insignias are disabled. The programming to accomplish this may take time, but I feel that's surely feasible.
and is exactly what I requested in the post you disagreed with
The primary gates to PVP right now are a Rank 10 HP SH boon, and the Swift Golden Lion mount. Those two things have to be removed for the PVP mode to regain some life.
I would add things like ALL the pots/consumables as well. Disabling these would be thousands of stats removed (if not more).
I'm in a level 20 SH as well, and I understand the "gear gap thing" but I think it could be taken in a different direction. As someone with all boons except cloaked ascend w/e, not having my boons/insignias is pretty much a waste of time I spent getting them and huge waste of AD for all purple insignias.
I haven't been suggesting much but all I can think of is adding options before queueing for pvp such as like "Regular Match"(boons insignias etc) and a mode where boons and insignias are disabled. The programming to accomplish this may take time, but I feel that's surely feasible.
"waste of time I spent getting XXXX"
This is going to be true in ANY formula for gear gap reduction.
This is why I have also suggested OTHER options: 1) WOW model of PVP 2) Diminishing returns curve in PVP for all stats 3) A bolster/debolster system in PVP
All three of those would not "invalidate" progression you have gotten elsewhere. However at some point, for the sake of the game, you might have to be willing to give up something youve worked for... Like just as an exaggerated example. Lets pretend they released a new weapon this next module that had 10,000 weapon damage. It was a super rare drop and you were lucky enough after 200 runs to get it! Woohoo. However now with it, you can 2 shot everyone in PVP.
We are faced with a "fairness" vs "I earned this" problem... IF we allow it, its not fair for PVP, if we disallow it, you are mad because you "earned this". If we nerf it, your also mad because "you earned it".
If you remove yourself from the equation... for the sake of a healthy PVP game, I think you have to be willing to give up some of the "power" you got in terms of gear progression.
I should clarify, my goal or the goal in ANY of these suggestions is to NOT make anything worthless, nor to remove gear progression (people often get this confused).
if you think about the normal "progress" of things @marko0987... if tenacity is removed from gear and put onto character sheet, this means that PVE dungeons, would hold the best PVP gear. In order to farm the best PVE dungeons to get the best gear... you need your boons and all your stuff....
So the fact that boons wouldnt help directly in PVP, doesnt mean it was worthless, since in theory they helped you get the GEAR that helps you in PVP, if this makes sense. So there is still a "circle of life" in there that makes boons valuable... it just doesnt make it give you an insane "power gap" advantage over anyone who doesnt have them....
There will be no healthy PVP community without a base of player, who step into this madness. Let´s say you implement this 1. no insignia , boons, equalized PVP etc. and a 2. "all-toys-allowed" PVP (do as you wish) arena mode 1vs1, 2vs2, etc.
Where do you think will the most PVP addicetd player end up ? Will they go on and slap each other the "golden lion" in their faces, runnig one of those fotm classes all day with tons of silly interacting, unpredictabel buffs and boons and unnecessary gear, or will they start to earn some real "honor/success" in a fair system, wich rewards the player at the end of a season? I know where it will end for sure. Normally , there is not much fun about slaughtering undergeared player, same as there is not much fun or skill to play in a Premade group out of a Hunter TR, DC, GF etc., running silly buffs all day and onhit other player. It is lame and has nothing to do with PVP. If a Premades want to contest, they should have the option to meet each other, but this can´t be the center/core of PVP in a game, sry. If I look into other games there is no need to play 4 years , or play all day , or spend 10000 DOllar to be competetive.
There will be no healthy PVP community without a base of player, who step into this madness. Let´s say you implement this 1. no insignia , boons, equalized PVP etc. and a 2. "all-toys-allowed" PVP (do as you wish) arena mode 1vs1, 2vs2, etc.
Where do you think will the most PVP addicetd player end up ? Will they go on and slap each other the "golden lion" in their faces, runnig one of those fotm classes all day with tons of silly interacting, unpredictabel buffs and boons and unnecessary gear, or will they start to earn some real "honor/success" in a fair system, wich rewards the player at the end of a season? I know where it will end for sure. Normally , there is not much fun about slaughtering undergeared player, same as there is not much fun or skill to play in a Premade group out of a Hunter TR, DC, GF etc., running silly buffs all day and onhit other player. It is lame and has nothing to do with PVP. If a Premades want to contest, they should have the option to meet each other, but this can´t be the center/core of PVP in a game, sry. If I look into other games there is no need to play 4 years , or play all day , or spend 10000 DOllar to be competetive.
The problem you are discussing is about your personal have's and have nots. The problems also aren't appearing on low level 70 PvP, because there you don't meet TRs with 30k recovery who keep half node perma CBed, the problems discussed are appearing on BiS level combat, therefore you can separate people with and without such as it comes with TIL, if you reach particular bracket you should be put up against higher competitive players. Thats all but by any means there should be no short cut. Think about lion itself, do you know why it reigns over PvP? Because this is basically BURST HEAL that is REQUIRED to survive BiS Conqueror GFs, BiS Rogues, and BiS Combat HRs. If these were normal damage I doubt anybody would need this kind of support. Don't turn it over, is this way not another.
I agree man, and your comment about the "bolster" system - the idea was actually to ALSO DEBOLSTER the higher itemlevel players.
So it would make a "target" of about 8k item level player. So someone with 12k item level would have their stats CUT DOWN. But to answer your question "why would they farm gear" because they get to allocate their points better.
If you look at a TR who wants a hard shocking Exec. They want power. They dont need other stats. Or maybe you wanna rock a full recovery build... You can. So you would farm recovery gear and stack more recovery so that when you were de-bolstered you would still have more recovery than other stats.
So it would be a "meet in the middle" idea. Ill admit this isnt my FAVORITE of all the "gear gap" solutions but I see it as the most LIKELY one.
I would still prefer 100% making all the campaign boons ONLY impact PVE (similar to companions) and then I would ALSO remove all effects of consumables from PVP - food,prayer buffs, potions.
These two things alone would reduce MASSIVE stat inflation from the game and make what GEAR you have much much more important. If tenacity is removed from gear and added to character sheet - you can use PVE gear which would then be the REASON TO STILL GET THE BOONS - TO GET THE BEST PVE GEAR FOR PVP.
But I agree man. Part of the problem of PVP is stat inflation. 30k Recovery TRs who can perma CBed or CWs who can repel like every 2 seconds or "perma AS DCs" etc.
All of these problems are due to stat inflation. Whats WORSE is I fear each new module = more boons = more stat inflation.
So to ME the simplest solution would be to strip all the inflation of boons out and make them "PVE impact only" which then DOES allow a fresh lvl 70 to buy some decent gear and maybe get some blue or purple artifacts and go into PVP and they COULD be much more competitive.....
You could also import this "condition" into Trade of Blades - where companions and boons and consumable impact wouldnt impact your character so you can SEE what he would be like in PVP.... To create "builds".
But this is the BEST solution IMO... I just dont know if Cryptic has the guts to do it, because they fear removing boons will make less people PAY for stuff but I disagree. If PVE gear is the "best gear" the only way to get the "best gear" is via PVE dungeons... Then people will want boons to get PVE gear to have the "best gear" for PVP.
This, BTW, is how PVP was done up until ~mod 2. The BEST GEAR came from PVE!!! So everyone ran dungeons. Even all the PVP players invested in companions back then to make PVE easier TO GET THE BEST GEAR... Same would apply to PVP today without boons.
Why not make each arena (pvp location) have it's own configuration when it comes to stats? Have a pure "naked" area, an "anything goes" area, etc?
Don't beat me up too bad guys, as I am a pver that might want to jump into pvp one day.
I think this may have worked a year or two ago. The issue we run into now is pure population. Every "split" or "option" in terms of PVP will "split" the population between those ques.
So if you offer like 3 options for domination: - Private Que - "Public Que" (with boons) - "public Que" (without boons and consumables)
Now we have the population split. If we have 100 PVPers, well have (for sake of illustration) 30 in private que, 20 guys in public que (with boons) and then 50 in "public que without boons/consumables" and now its even TOUGHER to have matchmaking....
Private que is a GOOD thing, but we need to be aware this is going to reduce the active "PVP population" in the "public que" which will likely make matchmaking harder....
I hope you jump into PVP too. I think your comment is a "case and point" of the issue. You want to jump in "someday" but likely cant, because you dont have gear. This is the opposite of how PVP should be. You should be able to hit 70, have some "average gear" and que up and actually be able to play... Not get 2 shot by at wills because you didnt farm tenacity gear... Not get 2 shot by encounters because you didnt stack 200k HP (or 1 shot by SE) etc...
All of these "issues" come from the massive stat inflation brought on by each modules campaign boons + SH boons + consumables. When you add up THOSE sources of stats, they make up ABOUT 2/3rds of your "possible" stats as a "BIS player". So even if you had all the best GEAR in the game... If you didnt potion/food buff up and didnt have your boons - you are at a SEVERE disadvantage.
I follow these discussion since long and all I can see is a more and more vanishing PVP-population and game in a hole the more gear, stats buffs, insignia etc. come up. Far more than 90% of PVP population is gone. There will be nothing to discuss if there are no serious improvements and a downgear in short. Drastical steps are more than necessary if you want PVP to be from any interest at all. Tbh I think it´s much too late to get things in line.
I follow these discussion since long and all I can see is a more and more vanishing PVP-population and game in a hole the more gear, stats buffs, insignia etc. come up. Far more than 90% of PVP population is gone. There will be nothing to discuss if there are no serious improvements and a downgear in short. Drastical steps are more than necessary if you want PVP to be from any interest at all. Tbh I think it´s much too late to get things in line.
You might be right, but I think its worth a shot. I dont think were too far off from just suggesting to abandon PVP altogether frankly... but I think they could still turn things around if they tried and listened to the player base in terms of what the problems are.
The BIGGEST as we have said (many times) are just the sheer volume of stats brought on by each campaign modules boons, items and also consumable buffs.
Remove campaign boons and consumable buffs in PVP (along with keeping companions out - INCLUDING SH SIEGE!!!) Would be a HUGE HUGE step in the right direction.
Id probably make Domination and GG - gear only (no boons except PVP boons, no companions, and no consumable buffs) I would do SH Siege as - gear only + SH boons only (no MOdule campaign boons, no companions, and no consumable buffs) *this would be the only PVP mode were SH boons would factor in. This could be fun.
Then "open world" BID - You would have everything apply - companions, consumables, etc.
I would also look at: Taking the BID maps (IWP and DV) and making them Domination maps for the Domination Que (no boons, companions, etc) This gives us 2 NEW maps to play on which would be AWESOME!!!!
So you would actually have 2 "versions" of BID. 1) open world BID - where anything goes. 2) Instanced BID - another "map" for domination matches without boons except PVP boons, no companions, and no consumable buffs.
Then doing what has been said: - Remove tencaity on GEAR and make it on character sheet. - Bring back NCL with COSMETIC PRIZES (NO POWER prizes)
This would all make PVP very fun again IMO... It would be something OLD players could come BACK to play - not being behind 6 modules worth of boons, etc.
Its also something a NEWER player could do - get 70 and get some basic gear and feel competitive like they werent missing out on tens of thousands of stats from boons + potions + foodbuffs etc. etc.
Known Issue Currently, the normal PvP rewards are still attached. That’s a bug. There will NOT be rewards attached to private PvP queues (way too abusable, as you can imagine) when the system goes live.
I accept that this will be exploited but if private pvp gives no rewards it will not be played by non - pvp players or casual pvp'ers. When i mentioned the private pvp in our alliance the first question was what will the rewards be. no rewards will mean as a pve player there will be more rewarding things to do than pvp private (for most at least ) and might suffer the same adoption(from non traditional pvp player base) rate SH pvp did
I love this and will use it with or without rewards my comments above is something that came up after talking with no regular pvp players that was interested in doing private pvp
There are more than BIS players in this game RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ???? FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
Been seeing a lot of "when so-and-so hits 70 and tries to PvP....". I'm thinking most new players have already tried PvP before they hit 70 and already have made a judgement on it. Of course they will most likely try it at 70 and then be convinced that their judgement was correct. It may be too late now to worry about how a new player will react to their first PvP experience, however, that experience has to be as clean as possible for it to have any chance of attracting a casual pvper to come back. Anyone still doing low to mid lvl matches? It doesn't surprise me that they have a general more balanced feel, matches are usually much closer (lower lvl play has always been easier to balance than end game content). But is still so wapper-jawed from equipment, mounts, etc. It is just not a good idea to be able to give them access to high ranking enchants, legendary/epic mounts, mythic artifacts, etc.
I realize this post is fairly repetitive compared to what I have already posted, and what many, many others have posted as well. The reason I revisited it is the huge expectation I had from a game bearing the Neverwinter name. I played Neverwinter Nights forever. It has been hands down the best PvP experience I have had in the DnD world outside of table top. I left the PC world a while back and re entered the console scene mainly for it's lower maintenance and ease of use with the children and the grandchildren. So I am playing Neverwinter from a PS4. The first month or two of PvP was a great experience for me.
Ok, enough of the self pity. Good to see the private and solo ques coming. I must give many thanks for them. For the future maps that have been hinted at - how about a good capture the flag variation where you bust into the enemy fort and grab tokens or gold from a chest. The amount each person can carry based off of a stat or a passive/encounter ability, or anything really that forces people to rethink how they build their character. The amount of dmg you do to the enemy gate can be done the same way, now you have two more things to worry about other than just bashing your opponent's skull (not to mention movement, gotta get the loot back to your base). A team wins after they capture a set amount of tokens/gold. Also, npc guards or guardian at the spawn points, no more hanging out taunting or waiting for your enemy or you might get spanked.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I would pay for access to a PvP arena where all gear, boons, etc were separated from pve.
I loved pvp before lvl 70. Matches were more balanced, after lvl 70 i rarely play pvp anymore since it is just meant for "career" PVP player.
Being repeatedly oneshot by an invisible player after reaching level 70 was not very good motivation for continuing to grind for gear. PVE was more provitable to do. I recently leveled another toon to 70 to test if this was still the fact and If this is the experience that awaits fresh level 70 players in pvp i understand why so many hate pvp
There are more than BIS players in this game RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ???? FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
I've finally found the wiring where overall healing suppression in PvP is attached. Right now, it's an across-the-board 50% reduction on healing.
Is that the right amount? Should healing be reduced more?
Tuning the existing number should be very easy. It's also possible to build something more complex, like reducing self-healing, or non-power healing (so it would hit things like mount and item powers, but not At-Wills, Encounters, or Dailies). Of course, it's better to keep it simple if possible -- "healing is 50% less effective in PvP" is easier to understand than "this kind of healing is 50% less effective, but this other kind is 80% less effective". So tuning the existing number is best, but other options are possible.
What do people think? Leave healing as-is in PvP? Tune the existing number up or down? Do something more complicated?
I've finally found the wiring where overall healing suppression in PvP is attached. Right now, it's an across-the-board 50% reduction on healing.
Is that the right amount? Should healing be reduced more?
Tuning the existing number should be very easy. It's also possible to build something more complex, like reducing self-healing, or non-power healing (so it would hit things like mount and item powers, but not At-Wills, Encounters, or Dailies). Of course, it's better to keep it simple if possible -- "healing is 50% less effective in PvP" is easier to understand than "this kind of healing is 50% less effective, but this other kind is 80% less effective". So tuning the existing number is best, but other options are possible.
What do people think? Leave healing as-is in PvP? Tune the existing number up or down? Do something more complicated?
(Note: This is all future work, not for Chult.)
Self healing from boons is silly right now. Planar vitality makes anyone who stacks enough deflect to basically heal more than incoming damage, unless it is burst or piercing damage that only some classes can do.
Do not reduce the amount classes heal, as this will nerf that class e.g. encounters, dailies - mainly the domain of DCs and Devo OPs. If you reduce the healing of the healing classes, you must look into the damage and rotational abilities of certain classes first. This requires balancing in an equal manner for damage / healer classes.
@rgutscheradev Please make any boons or feats that heal when you deflect heal 50% less effective in domination and make the deflect damaging boons actually proc on a deflect instead of just standing near an opponent. I would also suggest looking at deflection severity again and maybe even make all classes 50% deflect severity or less. There are many builds these days that have very high or 100% deflect (combat hunter rangers) that makes them heal too much from the above boons and take almost no damage and cant be killed unless they fight a guardian fighter ( I know that sounds crazy a guardian fighter with that much burst damage). Another suggestion I have is to make healing insignia boons like vampires craving and deflect heal only able to proc every 2 seconds like the crit one is right now. Thank you very much for all the attention you pay to pvp.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
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Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
So you would want to introduce something like a kink or an inflection point in the stat function to do two things if I understand correctly:
(1) Make low ilevel players "catch up" faster with increasing marginal returns to investing in a stat, when ilevel is below X baseline (in example 8)
(2) Introduce decreasing marginal returns to investing in a stat after X.
It could be interesting. In your example effectively the power gap goes from over 40% to about 10% (if power if linear); correct?
One problem would be for players under level X. If you compare BETWEEN guilds which differ in SH boons, imagine the following example where both player are 6k:
Player 1: +32k HP boon ---> effective HP boost: +43k HP mitigated by the increase in item level (how much would the increase be?)
Player 2: + 0 HP boon ---> effective HP boost = 0 HP
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
It sounds like you have the right idea.
A 6k Player who has (just picking #s out of thin air) 8k Power ques for PVP and goes against a
14k GS player who has 25k power. (Note: This would be ALL stats including HP - but HP wouldnt be as straight forward, Power is just a good example stat).
6k Player formula would be:
(8k / 6k) * 8,000 = 10,666 power
14k would be:
(8k/14k) * 25,000 = 14,285 power
Thus more "equalizing" the amount of power you receive.
So what you would "weigh" as a "best in slot" player is stat increase OVER the item level increase... Since technically every item level gain would give a more severe negative "multiplier".
This idea isnt fully fleshed out, just trying to get some communication around it.
EITHER this, or maybe you "peg" everyone at like 80% of MAX ITEM LEVEL. So something like (14k?)
So the 6k Player with 8k power would be:
14k/6k * Stat = 18,666 Power
14k/14k * 25k = NO CHANGE.
Permanent solo queue is a good choice.
In case you implement this long needed mode to PVP, PLEASE change the pop-up window wich actually leads to syncing queues.
No information about how much player allready excepted, maybe just one small simple button to accept the match or not, maybe delay that window for the player taking part in the same match - I want a random choice and get rid of those "sync-nerds".
The most important point to get player much earlier into PVP and attract more player in general for this game, wich has a pretty nice combatsystem is not the change of tenacity, and all that stuff you mention above btw.
You need to downgear PVP massively !
Boons, SH-Boons, legendary mounts, insigniaboni, weapon enchants, buffpotions, overloads have to go !
You will have less issues to balance classes arround PVP and you will have much more balanced matches in a hole, the experince will be much better, since gear gap is no issue that way.
A seasonal PVP-gear providing plus some PVP boons, maybe revive the PVP campain, that´s it.
Let the privat queue be the place to compete on a pro level, fully stuffed -all sorts of toys accepted, implement an arena 1vs1, 2vs2, 3vs3 with attractive rewards and a leaderboard for those player.
The normal PVP should be equalized !
I take part to get my daily rewards, maybe level my campainboons, get experience, have fun. The ones that enjoy PVP will try to level up, improve their toon and maybe step into arena/privat queue.
Atm. you have a handfull of veterans , scratching and biting if you try to argue, understandabley they want to keep that gear and the advantage having spend >100 Mio AD to get there. Those player need rewards and a seperat playground, like arena PVP etc.
Btw. you got that equalized PVP allready to some degree - < 70 PVP.
All you have to do is create one gear you either may buy for tarmalune bars or get from a campain (no slots, no extras), 4 pieces of armor, one weapon/shield, a PVP specific code/score to be allowed to queue and no way to switch that gear in a match, done.
#1 Please allow us to queue for domination with more than 10 players. We cannot do full mayhem fights with no space to move without this function.
#2 Please allow the queue leader to switch a player's team causing them to respawn during a match.
#3 It would be nice if the queue leader had an easy way to instantly end the match, while keeping the queue group together.
#4 Please let us queue for domination with only one player. I tried to show a friend at his PC how nodes work, but ended up having to join the queue with him needlessly just so he could see what a node looks like.
#5 Probably not feasible for mod 12, but allowing us to queue for a super tiny room with training dummies (like trade of blades) in the private pvp queue would be really helpful for testing. Some people have to create guilds on preview just to get some alone time with a training dummy.
#6 Probably not feasible for mod 12, but it would be extra super awesome to allow the queue leader to have control over the match parameters like:
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Its hard to understand how good PVP can be, if you only started playing NW in the last year or two... but when you go back far enough to the pre-module days, or even up until maybe mod 3, PVP had an extremely healthy community of players. The "gear gap" between an average player and a "best in slot" PVP player was not as large as it was today AND self healing was VERY VERY limited. Mod 0/1 days you only had regen ticks every 3 seconds to keep you alive. So DPS mattered! Get more DPS than "heal per second" an you could kill someone.
now we have so much self healing due to things like lifesteal and insignias, that DPS doesnt matter, its all about burst... So removing boons and insignias removes a HUGE amount of self healing from PVP.
it also removes a LARGE amount of "gear gap" that prevents PVE players and new players from trying PVP and enjoying it.
The thought process here is that in order to get the "best gear" for PVP, you still need to do PVE thus need the boons to do the PVE content. So removing this stuff from PVP doesnt actually remove the need to get it, it just removes the "power advantage" you gain from those things directly in PVP. (this, coming from a guy who has a max SH btw, so I cant be accused of asking for something so I dont have to farm it myself).
And yes, I agree with what your sentiment gets at - you dont want to be FORCED to PVE to be able to play PVP and this is another problem... You cant MERELY hit 70, grab some blue gear and hop into PVP. Its a joke. A level 11 has a better chance fighting a lvl 60, than a fresh 70 has against a "best in slot" 70... this is merely an illustration but it is still true... There is no "skill" a fresh 70 can have, to overcome the MASSIVE gear gap that exists in PVP right now.... that gear gap is the biggest barrier to entry in this game, and its why less and less are entering PVP and over time more and more are leaving PVP (and this game)...
barriers to entry are good for business as it keeps competition LOW... barriers to entry for PVP in an online game are BAD as it does the same thing - keeps competition LOW... When there is LOW competition in a game for a long period of time (like we have in NW) people leave... Which is where we are at today...
Solution? Remove barriers to entry. One of the PRIMARY barriers to entry are all the boons.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
The problem is what has been said below:
"waste of time I spent getting XXXX"
This is going to be true in ANY formula for gear gap reduction.
This is why I have also suggested OTHER options:
1) WOW model of PVP
2) Diminishing returns curve in PVP for all stats
3) A bolster/debolster system in PVP
All three of those would not "invalidate" progression you have gotten elsewhere. However at some point, for the sake of the game, you might have to be willing to give up something youve worked for... Like just as an exaggerated example. Lets pretend they released a new weapon this next module that had 10,000 weapon damage. It was a super rare drop and you were lucky enough after 200 runs to get it! Woohoo. However now with it, you can 2 shot everyone in PVP.
We are faced with a "fairness" vs "I earned this" problem... IF we allow it, its not fair for PVP, if we disallow it, you are mad because you "earned this". If we nerf it, your also mad because "you earned it".
If you remove yourself from the equation... for the sake of a healthy PVP game, I think you have to be willing to give up some of the "power" you got in terms of gear progression.
I should clarify, my goal or the goal in ANY of these suggestions is to NOT make anything worthless, nor to remove gear progression (people often get this confused).
if you think about the normal "progress" of things @marko0987... if tenacity is removed from gear and put onto character sheet, this means that PVE dungeons, would hold the best PVP gear. In order to farm the best PVE dungeons to get the best gear... you need your boons and all your stuff....
So the fact that boons wouldnt help directly in PVP, doesnt mean it was worthless, since in theory they helped you get the GEAR that helps you in PVP, if this makes sense. So there is still a "circle of life" in there that makes boons valuable... it just doesnt make it give you an insane "power gap" advantage over anyone who doesnt have them....
Let´s say you implement this
1. no insignia , boons, equalized PVP etc. and a
2. "all-toys-allowed" PVP (do as you wish) arena mode 1vs1, 2vs2, etc.
Where do you think will the most PVP addicetd player end up ?
Will they go on and slap each other the "golden lion" in their faces, runnig one of those fotm classes all day with tons of silly interacting, unpredictabel buffs and boons and unnecessary gear, or will they start to earn some real "honor/success" in a fair system, wich rewards the player at the end of a season?
I know where it will end for sure.
Normally
If a Premades want to contest, they should have the option to meet each other, but this can´t be the center/core of PVP in a game, sry.
If I look into other games there is no need to play 4 years , or play all day , or spend 10000 DOllar to be competetive.
So it would make a "target" of about 8k item level player. So someone with 12k item level would have their stats CUT DOWN. But to answer your question "why would they farm gear" because they get to allocate their points better.
If you look at a TR who wants a hard shocking Exec. They want power. They dont need other stats. Or maybe you wanna rock a full recovery build... You can. So you would farm recovery gear and stack more recovery so that when you were de-bolstered you would still have more recovery than other stats.
So it would be a "meet in the middle" idea. Ill admit this isnt my FAVORITE of all the "gear gap" solutions but I see it as the most LIKELY one.
I would still prefer 100% making all the campaign boons ONLY impact PVE (similar to companions) and then I would ALSO remove all effects of consumables from PVP - food,prayer buffs, potions.
These two things alone would reduce MASSIVE stat inflation from the game and make what GEAR you have much much more important. If tenacity is removed from gear and added to character sheet - you can use PVE gear which would then be the REASON TO STILL GET THE BOONS - TO GET THE BEST PVE GEAR FOR PVP.
But I agree man. Part of the problem of PVP is stat inflation. 30k Recovery TRs who can perma CBed or CWs who can repel like every 2 seconds or "perma AS DCs" etc.
All of these problems are due to stat inflation. Whats WORSE is I fear each new module = more boons = more stat inflation.
So to ME the simplest solution would be to strip all the inflation of boons out and make them "PVE impact only" which then DOES allow a fresh lvl 70 to buy some decent gear and maybe get some blue or purple artifacts and go into PVP and they COULD be much more competitive.....
You could also import this "condition" into Trade of Blades - where companions and boons and consumable impact wouldnt impact your character so you can SEE what he would be like in PVP.... To create "builds".
But this is the BEST solution IMO... I just dont know if Cryptic has the guts to do it, because they fear removing boons will make less people PAY for stuff but I disagree. If PVE gear is the "best gear" the only way to get the "best gear" is via PVE dungeons... Then people will want boons to get PVE gear to have the "best gear" for PVP.
This, BTW, is how PVP was done up until ~mod 2. The BEST GEAR came from PVE!!! So everyone ran dungeons. Even all the PVP players invested in companions back then to make PVE easier TO GET THE BEST GEAR... Same would apply to PVP today without boons.
Don't beat me up too bad guys, as I am a pver that might want to jump into pvp one day.
So if you offer like 3 options for domination:
- Private Que
- "Public Que" (with boons)
- "public Que" (without boons and consumables)
Now we have the population split. If we have 100 PVPers, well have (for sake of illustration) 30 in private que, 20 guys in public que (with boons) and then 50 in "public que without boons/consumables" and now its even TOUGHER to have matchmaking....
Private que is a GOOD thing, but we need to be aware this is going to reduce the active "PVP population" in the "public que" which will likely make matchmaking harder....
I hope you jump into PVP too. I think your comment is a "case and point" of the issue. You want to jump in "someday" but likely cant, because you dont have gear. This is the opposite of how PVP should be. You should be able to hit 70, have some "average gear" and que up and actually be able to play... Not get 2 shot by at wills because you didnt farm tenacity gear... Not get 2 shot by encounters because you didnt stack 200k HP (or 1 shot by SE) etc...
All of these "issues" come from the massive stat inflation brought on by each modules campaign boons + SH boons + consumables. When you add up THOSE sources of stats, they make up ABOUT 2/3rds of your "possible" stats as a "BIS player". So even if you had all the best GEAR in the game... If you didnt potion/food buff up and didnt have your boons - you are at a SEVERE disadvantage.
There will be nothing to discuss if there are no serious improvements and a downgear in short. Drastical steps are more than necessary if you want PVP to be from any interest at all. Tbh I think it´s much too late to get things in line.
The BIGGEST as we have said (many times) are just the sheer volume of stats brought on by each campaign modules boons, items and also consumable buffs.
Remove campaign boons and consumable buffs in PVP (along with keeping companions out - INCLUDING SH SIEGE!!!) Would be a HUGE HUGE step in the right direction.
Id probably make Domination and GG - gear only (no boons except PVP boons, no companions, and no consumable buffs)
I would do SH Siege as - gear only + SH boons only (no MOdule campaign boons, no companions, and no consumable buffs)
*this would be the only PVP mode were SH boons would factor in. This could be fun.
Then "open world" BID - You would have everything apply - companions, consumables, etc.
I would also look at: Taking the BID maps (IWP and DV) and making them Domination maps for the Domination Que (no boons, companions, etc) This gives us 2 NEW maps to play on which would be AWESOME!!!!
So you would actually have 2 "versions" of BID.
1) open world BID - where anything goes.
2) Instanced BID - another "map" for domination matches without boons except PVP boons, no companions, and no consumable buffs.
Then doing what has been said:
- Remove tencaity on GEAR and make it on character sheet.
- Bring back NCL with COSMETIC PRIZES (NO POWER prizes)
This would all make PVP very fun again IMO... It would be something OLD players could come BACK to play - not being behind 6 modules worth of boons, etc.
Its also something a NEWER player could do - get 70 and get some basic gear and feel competitive like they werent missing out on tens of thousands of stats from boons + potions + foodbuffs etc. etc.
I love this and will use it with or without rewards my comments above is something that came up after talking with no regular pvp players that was interested in doing private pvp
RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ????
FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
Being repeatedly oneshot by an invisible player after reaching level 70 was not very good motivation for continuing to grind for gear. PVE was more provitable to do. I recently leveled another toon to 70 to test if this was still the fact and If this is the experience that awaits fresh level 70 players in pvp i understand why so many hate pvp
RIP Real Tiamat, RIP Real Demogorgon RIP real Temple of the spider. Why remove non bis content to give to bis players ????
FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)
I have another feedback request.
I've finally found the wiring where overall healing suppression in PvP is attached. Right now, it's an across-the-board 50% reduction on healing.
Is that the right amount? Should healing be reduced more?
Tuning the existing number should be very easy. It's also possible to build something more complex, like reducing self-healing, or non-power healing (so it would hit things like mount and item powers, but not At-Wills, Encounters, or Dailies). Of course, it's better to keep it simple if possible -- "healing is 50% less effective in PvP" is easier to understand than "this kind of healing is 50% less effective, but this other kind is 80% less effective". So tuning the existing number is best, but other options are possible.
What do people think? Leave healing as-is in PvP? Tune the existing number up or down? Do something more complicated?
(Note: This is all future work, not for Chult.)
Do not reduce the amount classes heal, as this will nerf that class e.g. encounters, dailies - mainly the domain of DCs and Devo OPs. If you reduce the healing of the healing classes, you must look into the damage and rotational abilities of certain classes first. This requires balancing in an equal manner for damage / healer classes.
Please make any boons or feats that heal when you deflect heal 50% less effective in domination and make the deflect damaging boons actually proc on a deflect instead of just standing near an opponent. I would also suggest looking at deflection severity again and maybe even make all classes 50% deflect severity or less. There are many builds these days that have very high or 100% deflect (combat hunter rangers) that makes them heal too much from the above boons and take almost no damage and cant be killed unless they fight a guardian fighter ( I know that sounds crazy a guardian fighter with that much burst damage). Another suggestion I have is to make healing insignia boons like vampires craving and deflect heal only able to proc every 2 seconds like the crit one is right now. Thank you very much for all the attention you pay to pvp.