I've finally found the wiring where overall healing suppression in PvP is attached. Right now, it's an across-the-board 50% reduction on healing.
Is that the right amount? Should healing be reduced more?
Tuning the existing number should be very easy. It's also possible to build something more complex, like reducing self-healing, or non-power healing (so it would hit things like mount and item powers, but not At-Wills, Encounters, or Dailies). Of course, it's better to keep it simple if possible -- "healing is 50% less effective in PvP" is easier to understand than "this kind of healing is 50% less effective, but this other kind is 80% less effective". So tuning the existing number is best, but other options are possible.
What do people think? Leave healing as-is in PvP? Tune the existing number up or down? Do something more complicated?
(Note: This is all future work, not for Chult.)
Rgut, thanks for taking the time to read some of this.
I think there are TWO questions here:
1) What is the right amount of healing 2) What should heal depression be in PVP.
For #2 - I think 50% is fine.
#1 is complicated. Healing should come from healing classes. We have far too much SELF healing from NON healing classes. The issue isnt the "severity" of the healing but rather the sources of healing on the classes that should be able to.
If you go back to BEFORE mod 6 (the level cap raise) sources of self healing were limited to Regen basically and a few items (like Emblem which was OP for 1 mod then nerfed hardcore).
Anyways, the issue isnt heal depression, if you made heal depression 25% (75% reduction) this would nerf the HEALING CLASSES too much and frankly, make an even BIGGER gap between PVE and PVP players. In PVE players dont value "self healing" very much because its EASY to get enough of it to live (because its not cut in half).
In all honesty, in a perfect world we might not have heal depression... but this would require a complete nerf and/or removal of all the healing sources - which I dont see happening.
So keeping it MORE simple is better like you said. The SOURCES of healing that should be nerfed? - Endless Consumption Boon - Insignias
These should be nerfed. Endless COnsumption is ~1/3rd chance to TRIPLE your heal. Which means its DOUBLES your lifesteal. Insignias provide a truck ton of self healing.
Hopefully this helps. The issue isnt really the "heal depression" and in reality this presents a "PVE/PVP" barrier where because healing is halved it becomes even more precious in PVP than PVE and thus more people stack it. But a removal of this makes healing even MORE abundant in PVP - which even at 50% its already TOO abundant as is...
You can't base changes to healing on these totally maxed-out players who abuse every single source of healing, yet cry about too much healing. Nerfing healing just hurts those who are not maxed-out. I would say limiting the amount of sources of healing would be good. Remove mount powers, insignia bonuses, and ALL boons from PVP, then PVP may grow.
Boom! Gold! Truth! This is the solution or atleast step 1 to fix PVP. This removes sources of healing - which needs to happen from NON HEAL classes. If you want meaningful healing, it should come from a healing class - DC/OP as an example. MILD self healing from non heal classes is OK (like a little lifesteal to help sustain SOME) but its gotten silly in PVP.
Definitely a fan of complexity, however, if a simple route is to be I'll vote for more suppression. Insignia/item heals, as-well-as lifesteals that are not part of class ability take away from the harshness that is PvP. You should expect to die. You should also be fairly certain that your enemy will die as well at some point (or at least run away to rest). It has been odd playing a DnD game where clerics and wizards get an endless amount of spells, and all rogues hide in plain sight, but it is what it is and I enjoy the mechanic. For more complexity, maybe heals are diminished over time, or the amount you can be healed or heal has a limit that would reset at the campfire and access to the camp fire for those who don't want to die for the reset (though I'm a fan for reset on death). Healing could also be suppressed greater on or near capture nodes. Just a few thoughts, and I'm not sure how much can be easily adjusted apart from pve.
Totally agree about pre 70 PvP. Not sure if I've ever been in a blowout match pre 70, and most are 900+ points to 1000 matches. If I could turn off xp on my alts to stay in such a wonderful place I would. You still can encounter godlike enemies in the lower lvls though, that was my point, nothing prevents you from stacking pots, or having mythical artifacts, etc. You shouldn't have to fight another person's lvl 70 when you are lvl 30, which is effectively what is happening when you twink a lowbie. Again, it is what is, for now you just play within the boundaries that are provided.
I don't think mount powers and insignia bonuses were considered at all for their impact on pvp - I think the same way that companions are excluded from pvp, so should mount powers/bonuses.
@rgutscheradev - does the 50% healing suppression also halve healing from boons? If it doesn't it should.
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Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
I don't think mount powers and insignia bonuses were considered at all for their impact on pvp - I think the same way that companions are excluded from pvp, so should mount powers/bonuses.
@rgutscheradev - does the 50% healing suppression also halve healing from boons? If it doesn't it should.
@rgutscheradev Yes, take them away and start (at least for the single queue) to balance arround an equalized PVP without those unpredictable and unnecessary boons/insignia/mountpowers and don´t be afraid about the feedback, there is not much to lose. 1. you will never ever get a balance into a system with so many variables if you do not tone them down 2. you do not have the time nor the ressources to get this in line since your employer is not Blizzard 3. all you get if you do small adjustments is a poor compromise, wich leads to the next cryout in about 1/2 a years, since the next broken toy was released
Totally agree about pre 70 PvP. Not sure if I've ever been in a blowout match pre 70, and most are 900+ points to 1000 matches. If I could turn off xp on my alts to stay in such a wonderful place I would. You still can encounter godlike enemies in the lower lvls though, that was my point, nothing prevents you from stacking pots, or having mythical artifacts, etc. You shouldn't have to fight another person's lvl 70 when you are lvl 30, which is effectively what is happening when you twink a lowbie. Again, it is what is, for now you just play within the boundaries that are provided.
All you have to do is take pre 70 PVP without mountpowers, insignia as the base. Ballance arround it, done.
Again, all we got from last mods, was a significant downgrade for PVP and a massive loss of playerbase. You have to shut down the labratory for broken setups and builds, no alternative imo.
1. Boons= unnecessary to step into PVP, only lead to broken builds and bugs 2. overloads = once were a pain, nowerdays most player don´t slot it because otherwise there is no game, on PC 3. buff potions = a simple way to succeed 4. SH-Boons = toxic for PVP 5. insignia/boni = imbalance PVP a lot 6. mounts= broken mounts lead to imbalanceed PVP, once ther was an axebeak , now it`s the lion 7. ......
Hotenow zero, Rivenscar zero, Gauntlgrym zero, SH-Siege ...... And if I step into a match (yesterday), I am beamed at an occupied campfire into a lost match, watching BIS player vs casuals with 1/3 of his stats. And since those stats with a big HP pool and crazy dps combined with selfhealboons/mounts just do an exponential upgrade in tankyness, there is simply no match. The decision is more about , do I want PVP or not. In case you want PVP, do a downgear. Otherwise keep things as they are and ignore the PVP section for another 5 years
PS: I really can´t find any good reason, why PVP should be an late-endgame-only-modus for overgeared player? This is a pretty dumb argument imho. And if so, you have to implement at least a "normal" mode for casual and somthing like arena for BIS toons. Separation of those groups is needed.
Post edited by schietindebux on
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
I've finally found the wiring where overall healing suppression in PvP is attached. Right now, it's an across-the-board 50% reduction on healing.
Is that the right amount? Should healing be reduced more?
Tuning the existing number should be very easy. It's also possible to build something more complex, like reducing self-healing, or non-power healing (so it would hit things like mount and item powers, but not At-Wills, Encounters, or Dailies). Of course, it's better to keep it simple if possible -- "healing is 50% less effective in PvP" is easier to understand than "this kind of healing is 50% less effective, but this other kind is 80% less effective". So tuning the existing number is best, but other options are possible.
What do people think? Leave healing as-is in PvP? Tune the existing number up or down? Do something more complicated?
(Note: This is all future work, not for Chult.)
I don't like the idea of differentiation either, keep it simple stupid is the best way to do many things, so no i wouldn't go with this or that power in specific, the best way to solve excessive healing is to attack where it becomes problematic, in long fights, so either stack over time above the 50% or make it something like "Every time you're hit you'll receive 4% less incoming healing, this effect will stack up to 20 times, can only stack once every second.". I like the second one more because it allows better survival to bursts.
I've finally found the wiring where overall healing suppression in PvP is attached. Right now, it's an across-the-board 50% reduction on healing.
Is that the right amount? Should healing be reduced more?
There are 2 sources of self-heal from 2 non-heal classes that are just outrageously broken.
1. HR: Wild medicine heals 6k-9k every sec. Accounts for >50% of self-heal. 2. SW: Borrowed time heals 13-15k every 2 sec. Accounts for >50% of self-heal.
Those numbers are for BiS players with healing depression. Unless you can burst them down quickly, they'd just heal back up in no time from passive heals alone.
------------------------------------------------------------------------- But my major problem is REFLECT DMG.
I often run ACT in PvP and reflect dmg such as Frozen Reflection is the #1 dmg source for some people. Even for me as a DPS CW with <10% deflection chance, it's often my #3/#4 highest hitting ability. Any new players or even moderately geared players would die from attacking people with those boons.
Another over-performing reflect dmg is SW's Warlock's Bargain. I know that SW can't deal much dmg without it but this is cheesy as hell. Basically you can't attack them when the skill is active (pretty much most of the time) because doing so would get you killed.
I would suggest removal of such skill-less mechanics and replace it with something that actually requires some effort to use.
... Remove mount powers, insignia bonuses, and ALL boons from PVP, then PVP may grow.
indeed
@rgutscheradev Yes, take them away and start (at least for the single queue) to balance arround an equalized PVP without those unpredictable and unnecessary boons/insignia/mountpowers and don´t be afraid about the feedback, there is not much to lose. 1. you will never ever get a balance into a system with so many variables if you do not tone them down 2. you do not have the time nor the ressources to get this in line since your employer is not Blizzard 3. all you get if you do small adjustments is a poor compromise, wich leads to the next cryout in about 1/2 a year
I have to agree with this (again). This is a VERY good point. I remember module 6 when Avalanche boon was causing problems with no ICD and classes like SW would kill themselves on players that had this.... So this is another example of where a new campaign boon comes out, and breaks PVP and this went unchanged for months... Removing these types of things will make your life 100x easier because around every new module, there is always a risk of a new boon or item coming out that BREAKS PVP, that the QA team probably isnt testing the way the players in PVP play....
Heal Depression was initially created to lessen self healing from Regen - because regen was our only source of self healing but even that was "capped" and only ticked every 3 sec. Lifesteal USED to be 100% chance to proc (was off every hit) and Lifesteal % was how much of those hits we got back. I remember some players STACKED lifesteal in PVP (I think Stox did mod 2) and even he had like 12%-14% and this was when Endless Consumption came out - which gave lifesteal ~1/3rd chance to to proc and triple the heal. So at the MOST he was able to heal like 30-40% of any damage done.
But NOW we have boons that heal, we have mounts that heal, insignias. We have lifesteal Severity which gives us less "reliable" healing in a sense (as its not on every hit), but not really since lifesteal isnt SoftCapped like it was pre-mod 6. So players can STACK TONS of lifesteal via stats and get 30%+ now (not 12-14%), and then also use Endless Consumption and every 3rd lifesteal they heal for 300%!! amount of their damage which in PVP can be ALOT on some classes (Think 100k crit turns into a 300k heal - heal depression = 150k heal from lifesteal in PVP due to endless consumption!!!). I have countless PVP videos showing me heal from lifesteal for 100k+ heal ticks because of Endless Consumption.
I wanted to make a point. If you are reading this you might be thinking "well we want players to be incentivesed to do the new content, campaigns, etc. If we remove the boons wont players be LESS incentivised to do all to do all those things?
The answer is NO. But this ONLY happens with the proper changes. So let me spell this out: IF! Tenacity is removed from gear... And given to every player's character sheet, NOW the best gear comes from PVE correct? From the toughest dungeons, each new module = newer, better gear that can ALSO NOW be used for PVP. So now the PVP players, or people interested in PVP, will be tempted to actually run PVE to get this new gear. Well, how are they going to run PVE without all the boons? See? Its all still connected!
PVP -> "best gear from PVE" -> requires boons.
Which by the way... This is how the game USED TO WORK in its "prime". Before tenacity, this was how it worked. The best sets were PVE dungeon sets. PVP players were all MORE than willing to run dungeons for the best gear for PVP. Also, the cool thing is now, its not "REQUIRED" since there are so many sources of gear. BUT! You want the best stuff? This comes from the hardest PVE content, which willl REQUIRE boons and ALLLLL the power you can muster.
These NEED to be removed from PVP. You get 38 Rank12 hybrid enchants worth of extra stat from ALL the buffs and pots you can find and this is EXACTLY what all the "Best in Slot" players do and it creates even MORE balancing problems and even MORE gear gap over the average player..... This is also where you see TRs running the 10% more deflect severity pots, to get 85% (instead of 75%) etc. Its just ANOTHER "balance issue" for you.
So do yourself a favor... remove all these power creep / balance issues like Campaign Boons, Mount Bonuses, Insignias, Potions from PVP and it will make your life a HELL OF A LOT EASIER to balance this game in PVP. Then you wont have to worry about some new BOON coming out in a future mod that completely breaks PVP....
2
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
I've finally found the wiring where overall healing suppression in PvP is attached. Right now, it's an across-the-board 50% reduction on healing.
Is that the right amount? Should healing be reduced more?
There are 2 sources of self-heal from 2 non-heal classes that are just outrageously broken.
1. HR: Wild medicine heals 6k-9k every sec. Accounts for >50% of self-heal. 2. SW: Borrowed time heals 13-15k every 2 sec. Accounts for >50% of self-heal.
Those numbers are for BiS players with healing depression. Unless you can burst them down quickly, they'd just heal back up in no time from passive heals alone.
------------------------------------------------------------------------- But my major problem is REFLECT DMG.
I often run ACT in PvP and reflect dmg such as Frozen Reflection is the #1 dmg source for some people. Even for me as a DPS CW with
multiprocs of feats every 30 seconds is more cheesy than reflections you can counter them with lifesteal.
@rgutscheradev Problem is feats like wilds medicine and the sw one that heal along side mount insignia heals they need to heal less in pvp theres no reason that the entire time you are fighting a combat hunter they should be healing for like 6k every second on top of all the other healing boons and insignias and be at 100% deflect the whole time it makes them near impossible to kill 1v1 unless you unload a huge combo when you are frayed.. Leave lifesteal the way it is because it is already under healing suppression while in PVP. But yes a nerf to endless consumption is totally warranted just make it like 3% increased chance to lifesteal or something.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
> @defiantone99 said: > You can't base changes to healing on these totally maxed-out players who abuse every single source of healing, yet cry about too much healing. Nerfing healing just hurts those who are not maxed-out. I would say limiting the amount of sources of healing would be good. Remove mount powers, insignia bonuses, and ALL boons from PVP, then PVP may grow.
I think this is the answer as well. Unfortunately, people don't want to give up any advantage they have. Get rid of as many variables as possible and take potions out of the equation.
Well, what destroyed PVP was the introduction of cancerous additions/changes to the game. First it was artifact weapons and gear, that was the first nail. The second nail was Mod 6 that brought in rank 12s that only a few could afford. Mount stats/powers, SH boons and drains were the third nail. The final nail was troll-mades using all of these things together to crush lowbies and run them out of the modes. So, the only way to resurrect this corpse is to start removing the nails in the coffin. People will have to give things up.
Dont forget all the potions and food buffs they keep coming out with! That give you ~30+ "Rank 12" equivalents.
So you have maxed boon characters + maxed artifact equipment + maxed artifacts + all rank 12s + cancerous items like Lion + massive self healing via lifesteal+boons+insignias + maxed potions.
When you add all this "STUFF" up... the amount of "stats" coming from your actual GEAR, is like 1/3rd of your total stats.... Meaning EASILY more than HALF of your "stats" are coming from things like boons + potions.
So a new player just CANNOT compete with someone who has 3-4x the number of stats they do... And as others have pointed out, its not like there are "diminishing" returns, in fact the more stats = the more "Synergy" you get... Things like more Crit/ARp/Power = More Lifesteal and when you have more HP less lifesteal is "wasted" etc. etc.
So in REALITY, someone who has 3-4x the # of stats you do, is likely something like 6-8x more powerful than you are... Which is why we see "Best in slot" players able to 3v1 or 4v1 "average" players (AKA PUGS) and its just NO competition.
This is also NOT factoring the "tenacity Factor" where some players dont even have tenacity gear....
What about limiting the potions in PvP. Creates a huge "gear" gap. Its really ridiculous. You only get 38 Rank12 hybrid enchants worth of extra stat.... Thx for sopi/zeusom for making the list.
What about limiting the potions in PvP. Creates a huge "gear" gap. Its really ridiculous. You only get 38 Rank12 hybrid enchants worth of extra stat.... Thx for sopi/zeusom for making the list.
They tried to do this a while back and on things like the Elixirs, if you consume a different one the STATS from the prior ones fall off... The PROBLEM is what DOESNT fall off are the secondary benefits... SO for example, players can consume Foehammer's Favor Elixir for the deflect and deflect severity, when they consume Wild Storm Elixir for the Crit and Crit Severity only the DEFLECT falls off from the Foehammer's Exlir, NOT the Deflect Severity.
So ONE option to keep "food/potions" meaning full would be to categorize these enchants into something above: (Color Code) and then TRULY make it so only 1 of each TYPE can be applied at once...
This would still give you a pretty large "stat" discrepancy but would surely cut down the "Number" from 30+ Rank 12s to maybe more like something <10 rank 12s...
What about limiting the potions in PvP. Creates a huge "gear" gap. Its really ridiculous. You only get 38 Rank12 hybrid enchants worth of extra stat.... Thx for sopi/zeusom for making the list.
They tried to do this a while back and on things like the Elixirs, if you consume a different one the STATS from the prior ones fall off... The PROBLEM is what DOESNT fall off are the secondary benefits... SO for example, players can consume Foehammer's Favor Elixir for the deflect and deflect severity, when they consume Wild Storm Elixir for the Crit and Crit Severity only the DEFLECT falls off from the Foehammer's Exlir, NOT the Deflect Severity.
So ONE option to keep "food/potions" meaning full would be to categorize these enchants into something above: (Color Code) and then TRULY make it so only 1 of each TYPE can be applied at once...
This would still give you a pretty large "stat" discrepancy but would surely cut down the "Number" from 30+ Rank 12s to maybe more like something
They should remove them all or limit to like 1 potion and 1 food. Not more. :P
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2
treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
What about limiting the potions in PvP. Creates a huge "gear" gap. Its really ridiculous. You only get 38 Rank12 hybrid enchants worth of extra stat.... Thx for sopi/zeusom for making the list.
They tried to do this a while back and on things like the Elixirs, if you consume a different one the STATS from the prior ones fall off... The PROBLEM is what DOESNT fall off are the secondary benefits... SO for example, players can consume Foehammer's Favor Elixir for the deflect and deflect severity, when they consume Wild Storm Elixir for the Crit and Crit Severity only the DEFLECT falls off from the Foehammer's Exlir, NOT the Deflect Severity.
So ONE option to keep "food/potions" meaning full would be to categorize these enchants into something above: (Color Code) and then TRULY make it so only 1 of each TYPE can be applied at once...
This would still give you a pretty large "stat" discrepancy but would surely cut down the "Number" from 30+ Rank 12s to maybe more like something
They should remove them all or limit to like 1 potion and 1 food. Not more. :P
1 of each category:
1 potion; 1 food; 1 specific elixir; 1 global attribute raiser elixir (there are 2 and one another that boosts non main stats 1 praying boost 1 winter festival boost
What about limiting the potions in PvP. Creates a huge "gear" gap. Its really ridiculous. You only get 38 Rank12 hybrid enchants worth of extra stat.... Thx for sopi/zeusom for making the list.
They tried to do this a while back and on things like the Elixirs, if you consume a different one the STATS from the prior ones fall off... The PROBLEM is what DOESNT fall off are the secondary benefits... SO for example, players can consume Foehammer's Favor Elixir for the deflect and deflect severity, when they consume Wild Storm Elixir for the Crit and Crit Severity only the DEFLECT falls off from the Foehammer's Exlir, NOT the Deflect Severity.
So ONE option to keep "food/potions" meaning full would be to categorize these enchants into something above: (Color Code) and then TRULY make it so only 1 of each TYPE can be applied at once...
This would still give you a pretty large "stat" discrepancy but would surely cut down the "Number" from 30+ Rank 12s to maybe more like something
They should remove them all or limit to like 1 potion and 1 food. Not more. :P
1 of each category:
1 potion; 1 food; 1 specific elixir; 1 global attribute raiser elixir (there are 2 and one another that boosts non main stats 1 praying boost 1 winter festival boost
Id be fine with this, but it would require quite a bit of work and management. release a new food buff, forget to put the code in making it mutually exclusive with other food buffs and BAM, now we can stack another food buff....
But this WOULD work and remove A LOT of stat -gap in PVP
There are definately some abusive sources of healing in pvp that need a look. For example a team without a faithful cleric is at a huge disadvantage automatically due to the way empowered shields presently work in conjunction with gift of faith. This allows a cleric with good gear and a high hp pool to be braindead and sit inside an empowered shield stacking up gift taking almost no damage. The only way to counter this is try and push them out and burst them down with a CC chain (which can take quite a bit sometimes), but then the easily stacked up gift of faith kicks in and the cycle continues. If there are any adjustments to cc where there is diminishing returns added in the future we will begin to see double faith cleric teams popping up again like we had in mod 5, and games where no one dies because of constant gifts proccing off when someone is low and about to die. I think self healing powers from certain classes that grant full HP (gift of faith, lay on hands) or extremely high regen (wilds medicine) need a hard look in pvp. They should definitely not be as effective as they are presently.
Insignias on the other hand were pretty well nerfed with the last changes to insignias, and aside from abusive classes like HRs using extremely high deflect, the self healing boons don't seem ridiculous. Maybe tune the way these powers work so the cooldown is much longer, but they grant more healing so other classes can benefit the same way HRs do? Also please put a cooldown on the skeleton steed self healing power. When used by a certain class *cough* HR *cough* this power goes off way too much due to way dailies work with their mechanics.
I'm going to assume that if boons, insignias, pots, etc were to be removed for some version of PvP that there would still be access to a version or queue that allowed them. The idea of on/off switches for a variety of options seems ideal to me, but is it possible to even implement? Not sure how the private queues are going to work. If a group decides to not use mounts or pots for a match, is it going to be enforcible, or on an honor system?
Well it's often been suggested that a new 'bare-knuckle' arena could be created, where companions, mounts, potions/foods, drains/wards and SH boons are all deactivated.
There's a distinct possibility that it would become more popular than the arenas.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Well it's often been suggested that a new 'bare-knuckle' arena could be created, where companions, mounts, potions/foods, drains/wards and SH boons are all deactivated.
There's a distinct possibility that it would become more popular than the arenas.
That´s also an option , if at least there is a playground with equalized stats and gear where you can jump in without having played this game for >4 years. The core problem (no playerbase) is and allways was, that most player deny PVP from the start caused by geargap and mostly "traumatic" expiriences doing their first steps, getting oneshotted for the double of their life
Well it's often been suggested that a new 'bare-knuckle' arena could be created, where companions, mounts, potions/foods, drains/wards and SH boons are all deactivated.
There's a distinct possibility that it would become more popular than the arenas.
This is what I have suggested, at the risk of splitting the PVP community further, I would advocate for this as an OPTIONAL que.
You can create 2 Ques: (Anything goes) - where it is like it is today with boons and everything.
and
2) "Vanilla" PVP - where its MERELY your character and the gear on his back (character sheet gear only). Zero boons, zero potions/consummables, zero mount bonuses, etc. I would even disable active mount abilities (looking at you Lion prone) as well. Just pure good old simple Character Sheet Gear.
I would wager after about 2-3 weeks, the "anything goes" Que will be completely dead and the "Vanilla" PVP que will dominate.
You could ALSO allow some of these options in the custom Que - such as disabling boons, potions, etc. OR enabling them (and even companions too).
I would take the position that "Vanilla" PVP should be the NORMAL version of PVP and if people want all the power creep - they can have fun with that in Custom Que.
Comments
I think there are TWO questions here:
1) What is the right amount of healing
2) What should heal depression be in PVP.
For #2 - I think 50% is fine.
#1 is complicated. Healing should come from healing classes. We have far too much SELF healing from NON healing classes. The issue isnt the "severity" of the healing but rather the sources of healing on the classes that should be able to.
If you go back to BEFORE mod 6 (the level cap raise) sources of self healing were limited to Regen basically and a few items (like Emblem which was OP for 1 mod then nerfed hardcore).
Anyways, the issue isnt heal depression, if you made heal depression 25% (75% reduction) this would nerf the HEALING CLASSES too much and frankly, make an even BIGGER gap between PVE and PVP players. In PVE players dont value "self healing" very much because its EASY to get enough of it to live (because its not cut in half).
In all honesty, in a perfect world we might not have heal depression... but this would require a complete nerf and/or removal of all the healing sources - which I dont see happening.
So keeping it MORE simple is better like you said. The SOURCES of healing that should be nerfed?
- Endless Consumption Boon
- Insignias
These should be nerfed. Endless COnsumption is ~1/3rd chance to TRIPLE your heal. Which means its DOUBLES your lifesteal.
Insignias provide a truck ton of self healing.
Hopefully this helps. The issue isnt really the "heal depression" and in reality this presents a "PVE/PVP" barrier where because healing is halved it becomes even more precious in PVP than PVE and thus more people stack it. But a removal of this makes healing even MORE abundant in PVP - which even at 50% its already TOO abundant as is...
@mynaam & darthtzarr
Totally agree about pre 70 PvP. Not sure if I've ever been in a blowout match pre 70, and most are 900+ points to 1000 matches. If I could turn off xp on my alts to stay in such a wonderful place I would. You still can encounter godlike enemies in the lower lvls though, that was my point, nothing prevents you from stacking pots, or having mythical artifacts, etc. You shouldn't have to fight another person's lvl 70 when you are lvl 30, which is effectively what is happening when you twink a lowbie. Again, it is what is, for now you just play within the boundaries that are provided.
@rgutscheradev - does the 50% healing suppression also halve healing from boons? If it doesn't it should.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Yes, take them away and start (at least for the single queue) to balance arround an equalized PVP without those unpredictable and unnecessary boons/insignia/mountpowers and don´t be afraid about the feedback, there is not much to lose.
1. you will never ever get a balance into a system with so many variables if you do not tone them down
2. you do not have the time nor the ressources to get this in line since your employer is not Blizzard
3. all you get if you do small adjustments is a poor compromise, wich leads to the next cryout in about 1/2 a years, since the next broken toy was released All you have to do is take pre 70 PVP without mountpowers, insignia as the base. Ballance arround it, done.
Again, all we got from last mods, was a significant downgrade for PVP and a massive loss of playerbase. You have to shut down the labratory for broken setups and builds, no alternative imo.
1. Boons= unnecessary to step into PVP, only lead to broken builds and bugs
2. overloads = once were a pain, nowerdays most player don´t slot it because otherwise there is no game, on PC
3. buff potions = a simple way to succeed
4. SH-Boons = toxic for PVP
5. insignia/boni = imbalance PVP a lot
6. mounts= broken mounts lead to imbalanceed PVP, once ther was an axebeak , now it`s the lion
7. ......
Hotenow zero, Rivenscar zero, Gauntlgrym zero, SH-Siege ......
And if I step into a match (yesterday), I am beamed at an occupied campfire into a lost match, watching BIS player vs casuals with 1/3 of his stats. And since those stats with a big HP pool and crazy dps combined with selfhealboons/mounts just do an exponential upgrade in tankyness, there is simply no match.
The decision is more about , do I want PVP or not. In case you want PVP, do a downgear. Otherwise keep things as they are and ignore the PVP section for another 5 years
PS: I really can´t find any good reason, why PVP should be an late-endgame-only-modus for overgeared player? This is a pretty dumb argument imho.
And if so, you have to implement at least a "normal" mode for casual and somthing like arena for BIS toons. Separation of those groups is needed.
1. HR: Wild medicine heals 6k-9k every sec. Accounts for >50% of self-heal.
2. SW: Borrowed time heals 13-15k every 2 sec. Accounts for >50% of self-heal.
Those numbers are for BiS players with healing depression. Unless you can burst them down quickly, they'd just heal back up in no time from passive heals alone.
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But my major problem is REFLECT DMG.
I often run ACT in PvP and reflect dmg such as Frozen Reflection is the #1 dmg source for some people. Even for me as a DPS CW with <10% deflection chance, it's often my #3/#4 highest hitting ability. Any new players or even moderately geared players would die from attacking people with those boons.
Another over-performing reflect dmg is SW's Warlock's Bargain. I know that SW can't deal much dmg without it but this is cheesy as hell. Basically you can't attack them when the skill is active (pretty much most of the time) because doing so would get you killed.
I would suggest removal of such skill-less mechanics and replace it with something that actually requires some effort to use.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
Heal Depression was initially created to lessen self healing from Regen - because regen was our only source of self healing but even that was "capped" and only ticked every 3 sec. Lifesteal USED to be 100% chance to proc (was off every hit) and Lifesteal % was how much of those hits we got back. I remember some players STACKED lifesteal in PVP (I think Stox did mod 2) and even he had like 12%-14% and this was when Endless Consumption came out - which gave lifesteal ~1/3rd chance to to proc and triple the heal. So at the MOST he was able to heal like 30-40% of any damage done.
But NOW we have boons that heal, we have mounts that heal, insignias. We have lifesteal Severity which gives us less "reliable" healing in a sense (as its not on every hit), but not really since lifesteal isnt SoftCapped like it was pre-mod 6. So players can STACK TONS of lifesteal via stats and get 30%+ now (not 12-14%), and then also use Endless Consumption and every 3rd lifesteal they heal for 300%!! amount of their damage which in PVP can be ALOT on some classes (Think 100k crit turns into a 300k heal - heal depression = 150k heal from lifesteal in PVP due to endless consumption!!!). I have countless PVP videos showing me heal from lifesteal for 100k+ heal ticks because of Endless Consumption.
I wanted to make a point. If you are reading this you might be thinking "well we want players to be incentivesed to do the new content, campaigns, etc. If we remove the boons wont players be LESS incentivised to do all to do all those things?
The answer is NO. But this ONLY happens with the proper changes. So let me spell this out: IF! Tenacity is removed from gear... And given to every player's character sheet, NOW the best gear comes from PVE correct? From the toughest dungeons, each new module = newer, better gear that can ALSO NOW be used for PVP. So now the PVP players, or people interested in PVP, will be tempted to actually run PVE to get this new gear. Well, how are they going to run PVE without all the boons? See? Its all still connected!
PVP -> "best gear from PVE" -> requires boons.
Which by the way... This is how the game USED TO WORK in its "prime". Before tenacity, this was how it worked. The best sets were PVE dungeon sets. PVP players were all MORE than willing to run dungeons for the best gear for PVP. Also, the cool thing is now, its not "REQUIRED" since there are so many sources of gear. BUT! You want the best stuff? This comes from the hardest PVE content, which willl REQUIRE boons and ALLLLL the power you can muster.
ONE FINAL COMMENT: Consumables. https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/12957860 @rgutscheradev
These NEED to be removed from PVP. You get 38 Rank12 hybrid enchants worth of extra stat from ALL the buffs and pots you can find and this is EXACTLY what all the "Best in Slot" players do and it creates even MORE balancing problems and even MORE gear gap over the average player..... This is also where you see TRs running the 10% more deflect severity pots, to get 85% (instead of 75%) etc. Its just ANOTHER "balance issue" for you.
So do yourself a favor... remove all these power creep / balance issues like Campaign Boons, Mount Bonuses, Insignias, Potions from PVP and it will make your life a HELL OF A LOT EASIER to balance this game in PVP. Then you wont have to worry about some new BOON coming out in a future mod that completely breaks PVP....
Problem is feats like wilds medicine and the sw one that heal along side mount insignia heals they need to heal less in pvp theres no reason that the entire time you are fighting a combat hunter they should be healing for like 6k every second on top of all the other healing boons and insignias and be at 100% deflect the whole time it makes them near impossible to kill 1v1 unless you unload a huge combo when you are frayed.. Leave lifesteal the way it is because it is already under healing suppression while in PVP. But yes a nerf to endless consumption is totally warranted just make it like 3% increased chance to lifesteal or something.
> You can't base changes to healing on these totally maxed-out players who abuse every single source of healing, yet cry about too much healing. Nerfing healing just hurts those who are not maxed-out. I would say limiting the amount of sources of healing would be good. Remove mount powers, insignia bonuses, and ALL boons from PVP, then PVP may grow.
I think this is the answer as well. Unfortunately, people don't want to give up any advantage they have. Get rid of as many variables as possible and take potions out of the equation.
Character: Vendetta
So you have maxed boon characters + maxed artifact equipment + maxed artifacts + all rank 12s + cancerous items like Lion + massive self healing via lifesteal+boons+insignias + maxed potions.
When you add all this "STUFF" up... the amount of "stats" coming from your actual GEAR, is like 1/3rd of your total stats.... Meaning EASILY more than HALF of your "stats" are coming from things like boons + potions.
So a new player just CANNOT compete with someone who has 3-4x the number of stats they do... And as others have pointed out, its not like there are "diminishing" returns, in fact the more stats = the more "Synergy" you get... Things like more Crit/ARp/Power = More Lifesteal and when you have more HP less lifesteal is "wasted" etc. etc.
So in REALITY, someone who has 3-4x the # of stats you do, is likely something like 6-8x more powerful than you are... Which is why we see "Best in slot" players able to 3v1 or 4v1 "average" players (AKA PUGS) and its just NO competition.
This is also NOT factoring the "tenacity Factor" where some players dont even have tenacity gear....
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
So ONE option to keep "food/potions" meaning full would be to categorize these enchants into something above: (Color Code) and then TRULY make it so only 1 of each TYPE can be applied at once...
This would still give you a pretty large "stat" discrepancy but would surely cut down the "Number" from 30+ Rank 12s to maybe more like something <10 rank 12s...
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
1 potion;
1 food;
1 specific elixir;
1 global attribute raiser elixir (there are 2 and one another that boosts non main stats
1 praying boost
1 winter festival boost
Character: Vendetta
But this WOULD work and remove A LOT of stat -gap in PVP
There are definately some abusive sources of healing in pvp that need a look. For example a team without a faithful cleric is at a huge disadvantage automatically due to the way empowered shields presently work in conjunction with gift of faith. This allows a cleric with good gear and a high hp pool to be braindead and sit inside an empowered shield stacking up gift taking almost no damage. The only way to counter this is try and push them out and burst them down with a CC chain (which can take quite a bit sometimes), but then the easily stacked up gift of faith kicks in and the cycle continues. If there are any adjustments to cc where there is diminishing returns added in the future we will begin to see double faith cleric teams popping up again like we had in mod 5, and games where no one dies because of constant gifts proccing off when someone is low and about to die. I think self healing powers from certain classes that grant full HP (gift of faith, lay on hands) or extremely high regen (wilds medicine) need a hard look in pvp. They should definitely not be as effective as they are presently.
Insignias on the other hand were pretty well nerfed with the last changes to insignias, and aside from abusive classes like HRs using extremely high deflect, the self healing boons don't seem ridiculous. Maybe tune the way these powers work so the cooldown is much longer, but they grant more healing so other classes can benefit the same way HRs do? Also please put a cooldown on the skeleton steed self healing power. When used by a certain class *cough* HR *cough* this power goes off way too much due to way dailies work with their mechanics.
There's a distinct possibility that it would become more popular than the arenas.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
The core problem (no playerbase) is and allways was, that most player deny PVP from the start caused by geargap and mostly "traumatic" expiriences doing their first steps, getting oneshotted for the double of their life
You can create 2 Ques:
(Anything goes) - where it is like it is today with boons and everything.
and
2) "Vanilla" PVP - where its MERELY your character and the gear on his back (character sheet gear only). Zero boons, zero potions/consummables, zero mount bonuses, etc. I would even disable active mount abilities (looking at you Lion prone) as well. Just pure good old simple Character Sheet Gear.
I would wager after about 2-3 weeks, the "anything goes" Que will be completely dead and the "Vanilla" PVP que will dominate.
You could ALSO allow some of these options in the custom Que - such as disabling boons, potions, etc. OR enabling them (and even companions too).
I would take the position that "Vanilla" PVP should be the NORMAL version of PVP and if people want all the power creep - they can have fun with that in Custom Que.
> I would wager after about 2-3 weeks, the "anything goes" Que will be completely dead and the "Vanilla" PVP que will dominate.
>
I guess it would last only one day bc PVP these days is aĺlready dead due to broken builds.