My personal opinion: Neverwinter strenght is the combat system. It's an action-oriented combat system. What's the point of an action-oriented combat system? The fact that it involves stuff like: aiming, distance, player movements, dodging. What kills an action-oriented combat system? Massive piercing damage used on a class that cannot dodge.
The issue is not just the damage itself. The mechanics are an issue.
Example: GWF vs TR. GWF can potentially one-rotate the TR, but he has to time and aim his rotation perfectly, while the TR can spam dodge, CC and use ITC to defend himself effectively. On the other side, the GWF is a free target for the TR. All the TR must do is use DC sigil and spam SE (or 1-shot with SE), which against GWFs is like a free kill/ free hit. Which is a gameplay forced by the fact that most TRs powers are not effective, if i'm not mistaken. But, still, a lame mechanic that does not really fit in an action-oriented combat system.
Using powers listed by sayajin is an option, but it also means you have to use a rotation/ setup that, basically, works only to survive a single mechanic on a single class. It's adapting, yes. But quite extreme on one side, while the other side (the TR) can just use the same build and little effort.
Cryptic should in my opinion:
- reduce SE cast time to make it harder to dodge it - make SE a finisher (insta kill only if the enemy is at 30-35% total HP) so that a TR needs to time it instead of throwing it whenever he feels like it, with always 100% effectiveness guaranteed - buff other TRs powers to deal a lot of NORMAL (non piercing) damage (included AoE powers for PvE), since it's a pure DPS class. So that TRs can deal a lot of damage but only if they time their attacks correctly/ use some skill.
Would make TR class more fun to play. Right now, it looks quite un-fun. The only challenge is against yourself to build the toon properly and to do not mess your defensive rotation.
You can fix SE one-shot builds, but TR as it is now would still be un-fun. More balanced in the one-shot aspect, but still un-fun in my opinion, for players who look for some real action combat...
Note, i was not discussing if the TR can kill the GWF or not (while, keeping tyrion post into account about 1-shots on paladins, we can say a GWF can still get 1-shotted by a BiS TR built for that purpose), but the mechanic. As you said, the GWF has the X% CHANCE to catch the TR, IF THE GWF IS EXPERIENCED AND SKILLED (or if the TR is unexperienced/ unskilled). The TR, on the other hand, regardless from skill and experience, has the 100% chance to hit and either 1-shot or root/debuff (what CB does in the end, even if it should be a "slow/debuff"). This is what i don't like. The fact that it's not just that the TR has the "upper hand", but literally a mechanic that allows him to freely kill or play with another class effortlessly. Press 1 button & done. See the difference? HR vs TR, the HR has the "upper hand" as you say. But still needs to fight, and the TR can fight back.
The mechanic itself is wrong. Even in a 5v5 scenario.
Even so, Domination is NOT the only PvP mode. We are supposed to have GG but also SH siege and, more important, open world PvP in IWD. IF THE GAME WAS WORKING CORRECTLY we should be able to play even in the open world environment. There, you have 5v5, 10v10, 20v20, but also, 1v1 scenarios.
However, while i do agree that PvP can be balanced with a kind of rock/paper/scissors system, i am absolutely sure that the current TR vs GWF interaction is wrong, for the reasons stated above. It does not allow for a "fight back" in the case of the SE-centric builds, and creates a scenario where one side does not just have the "upper hand", but rather the full control of the fight with zero skill involved.
Having the upper hand does not mean the ability to end the fight instantly with the use of 1 button, in my opinion. Or the need to completely change setup and even active artifact, simply to survive 1 class/build.
The basics of action combat (aim, time, and dodge, must be the foundations of every fight. Regardless of balance. When you take away these elements, the fights become trivial, pointless, and un-fun.
My opinion.
PS: it's not an attempt to nerf the one skill exc...but i'd ask to buff 99% of TR powers and balance 1 overperforming daily to really make TRs a real DPS class instead of a 1-trick clown in PvP... It's, in my opinion, not true that TRs cannot be roworked to be fun and that the only way is to make them play the 1-shot SE way...It's, in my opinion, the only class that have a clear problem in the class MECHANICS, rather than in the sheer numbers...
Sorry to be telling you this but "immunity frame" in fact is not that great and has a cooldown, while rogue can no problem simply cancel the Shocking Execution animation and deliver the hit a moment later with the same effect. CW on the other hand with Elven or Gas Spore can probably just outdodge the incoming Shocking and even when hit it will get diminished by its shield which regains as he keeps on dodging.. But when you are debuffed by DC or there are two DCs (or DC and MoF) in party oracle with teryfing insight and champion who can put out army, the TR gets best boost possible and the Shocking will be over 300k, no way you can HP tank it currently.
As an interesting aside on the latter, I chose an executioner load out for my TR to get some ACT info, and with hallowed ground + DC debuff I hit another player in Domi PVP for over 590K.
590K.
Just lol.
*addendum: Found the combat log 595638 SE to be exact
Post edited by ltgamesttv#0999 on
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
PC must be pretty different if there isnt much complaining about SE from GWFs. Right now GWFs, SWs and pallies NEVER SEE THE INSIDE OF A SERIOUS QUE SYNC on XBOX. Because they will just get murdered. Until you can actually justify picking up these above classes and not think in the back of your head "OMG not a gwf, sw or pally" then its not balanced. Im sorry its just not.
Back to the OP's original post though I totally agree. No one should be able to get dunked with first strike for their whole bars. You can't have class balance when you can only get one hit by a class that can essentially pump fake your small immunity frame or daily to dodge theirs.
Suggestion: 1. Rework the passive into something else (No idea what to) 2. Rework shocking so it hits 50% weaker until 50% then harder after that percentage. 3. Make all the rogues dailies not cancel-able and perhaps a daily timer.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
PC must be pretty different if there isnt much complaining about SE from GWFs. Right now GWFs, SWs and pallies NEVER SEE THE INSIDE OF A SERIOUS QUE SYNC on XBOX. Because they will just get murdered. Until you can actually justify picking up these above classes and not think in the back of your head "OMG not a gwf, sw or pally" then its not balanced. Im sorry its just not.
Back to the OP's original post though I totally agree. No one should be able to get dunked with first strike for their whole bars. You can't have class balance when you can only get one hit by a class that can essentially pump fake your small immunity frame or daily to dodge theirs.
Suggestion: 1. Rework the passive into something else (No idea what to) 2. Rework shocking so it hits 50% weaker until 50% then harder after that percentage. 3. Make all the rogues dailies not cancel-able and perhaps a daily timer.
Under the current meta I think this is too much of a nerf. SE is their ONLY source of real damage in PVP atm. If you nerf SE they have nothing with which to do damage and will be relegated to CB. If you then put a cool down on CB they will have only SB.
I don't want to handicap a class. I just feel that First strike and SoD are an issue when you can one shot most any BIS player no matter what their HP pool. Until an actual class rework I'd prefer not to touch SE. No need to neuter a class, just solve over performance issues.
Thanks for your reply.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
u only talk mate,but u have no clue what about u even talking. come and show that ``broken`` sod first strike damage to us in pre vs pre. or go and kill pugs on solo que with first strike
exe for pve , and for pugs who want 1 shot a random pugs who doesn't even dodge or afk ppl. if u wanna do pvp seriously with team u have to be sabo and u have to play efficiently. otherwise people wipe out your team.
u only talk mate,but u have no clue what about u even talking. come and show that ``broken`` sod first strike damage to us in pre vs pre. or go and kill pugs on solo que with first strike
exe for pve , and for pugs who want 1 shot a random pugs who doesn't even dodge or afk ppl. if u wanna do pvp seriously with team u have to be sabo and u have to play efficiently. otherwise people wipe out your team.
In which case this won't even affect you, since there is *so* much Pre vs. Pre these days and I'm certain because of all that high end PVP you play sabo. In which case, this post probably doesn't even address your playstyle at all.
However, many GWFs, SWs, and Pallys who are one shotted via first strike and SoD exe builds in "pug" matches, I'm sure, would be glad to have a fighting chance. I think they deserve one. Knowing your fate is insta death when you see an MI EXE TR on the other team shouldn't be a thing for 3 classes. So it's something that should be looked at in terms of overperformance for class balancing.
Thanks for your reply!
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to add something like Assailing force (CW - thaum, final feat) on SE:
Assailing Force: Dealing damage to foes has a chance to grant you Assailant. When you have Assailant your next Encounter power deals 15% of the target's max HP as unresistable damage (max 800% weapon damage). This will only affect one target when used in an AoE. This feat is half as effective when used on Players.
Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to add something like Assailing force (CW - thaum, final feat) on SE:
Assailing Force: Dealing damage to foes has a chance to grant you Assailant. When you have Assailant your next Encounter power deals 15% of the target's max HP as unresistable damage (max 800% weapon damage). This will only affect one target when used in an AoE. This feat is half as effective when used on Players.
Edit: added the tooltip of Assailing force.
This is precisely what I would like to do. However I've had limited success with suggestions in the past on changing powers to do different things in PVP than in PVE. I would love to see first strike halved in effectiveness or SoD halved in effectiveness on SE in PVP only.This would be the BEST solution.
Most importantly though, whatever method the devs would choose in order to correct this overperformance, it needs to be addressed. 3 Classes should not be vulnerable to one shots simply for lack of immunity frames and the ability to one hit for higher than Max HP pools.
Thanks for your reply!
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Thing is there is no easy solution to this. I am not a PvP player but i have discussed this matter a lot with PvPers so i hope i have at least some understanding of PvP problems which involve TR. As already said, some classes will always have advantage/disadvantage over other classes, otherwise team work loses it value if you can fight any class by yourself.
For the TR rework, if it ever happens, it was suggested to adjust SE accordingly. I have as well proposed a solution which is a nerf compared to current SE, but in hope stacking ArPen would be a thing again instead Recovery. Also it was suggested for many other abilities to be buffed to actually work even with ArPen and additional ArPen from Ability scores. Then a nerfed SE would make sense. There are few currently stacking ArPen but they are mostly WK which means they dont use SE anyway. But when you actually look at the 3 trees and what they are supposed to do, ohko SE totally makes sense for Executioner tree. And it actually does what it promises. It has a special feat devoted to SE, it has Shadowborn and it has SoD. If it would not ohko it would be actually lame. Problem is, it has no drawbacks. Problem is not that it can ohko, problem is that it can be used too often. Executioner is a Hit and Run play style, its just that currently you dont have to run because you can keep hitting. The drawbacks are something that should be worked on, something like can only be activated when behind the enemy or blocking AP gain like what Lurker's Assault does, just for longer time, maybe 20-30 secs where you are forced to run away and wait for your chance to do it again. Successful ohko is only "guaranteed" vs those 2-3 classes which cant avoid it and thats the disadvantage those classes have vs TR. This suggestion of blocking AP gain has its bad side as well, Saboteur would not be able to spam it, other classes can avoid it and you cant re-use it again in short period so you would have to increase animation speed so its harder to dodge it. Anyway no easy solution to it.
Nerfing First Strike is not a solution as well. Yes its overperforming but only with SE. First strike is a joke with any other ability so why destroy it while it is only problematic with SE. SE itself needs some adjustments but its hard to find the right thing. It should be able to ohko but needs far bigger drawbacks. Also canceling the animation should be fixed for all things.
This thread about SE ignores the larger problem of high recovery perma courage break, perma ITC, perma smoke bomb rogues. I feel like your ignoring something that makes matches with 2 of these guys nigh unplayable, regardless of player skill. This is the build that turns the zero into a hero. Your focusing on the wrong daily (or in this case secondly).
SE while annoying is dodgeable or blockable for all but SWs and OPs. Does it need to be adjusted? Sure. But I think the perma builds need to go first for everyone's sake.
This thread about SE ignores the larger problem of high recovery perma courage break, perma ITC, perma smoke bomb rogues. I feel like your ignoring something that makes matches with 2 of these guys nigh unplayable, regardless of player skill. This is the build that turns the zero into a hero. Your focusing on the wrong daily (or in this case secondly).
SE while annoying is dodgeable or blockable for all but SWs and OPs. Does it need to be adjusted? Sure. But I think the perma builds need to go first for everyone's sake.
SWs, Pallies, GWFs suffer from first strike and SoD SE's for greater than 260K. This is an issue for 3/8 classes. That's almost half of the classes that are affected by this overperforming feat and passive. This is the only issue that this post seeks to address. Recovery builds, animation/daily canceling, and other such issues are unrelated. I'd be glad to read a post about them and give my 2 cents but the primary issues I would like to see addressed are those previously mentioned.
To clarify again: This is NOT a post about SE, it's about first strike and/or SoD procs on SE.
Thanks for your reply.
Mod edit to fix broken code on page.
Post edited by kreatyve on
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Sorry to be telling you this but "immunity frame" in fact is not that great and has a cooldown, while rogue can no problem simply cancel the Shocking Execution animation and deliver the hit a moment later with the same effect. CW on the other hand with Elven or Gas Spore can probably just outdodge the incoming Shocking and even when hit it will get diminished by its shield which regains as he keeps on dodging.. But when you are debuffed by DC or there are two DCs (or DC and MoF) in party oracle with teryfing insight and champion who can put out army, the TR gets best boost possible and the Shocking will be over 300k, no way you can HP tank it currently.
As an interesting aside on the latter, I chose an executioner load out for my TR to get some ACT info, and with hallowed ground + DC debuff I hit another player in Domi PVP for over 590K.
590K.
Just lol.
*addendum: Found the combat log 595638 SE to be exact
I don't have access to that tool, but I would be interested to know the numbers from the TR unbuffed by other classes. Potentially the issue is with over performance of a combination of features from other classes.
Sorry to be telling you this but "immunity frame" in fact is not that great and has a cooldown, while rogue can no problem simply cancel the Shocking Execution animation and deliver the hit a moment later with the same effect. CW on the other hand with Elven or Gas Spore can probably just outdodge the incoming Shocking and even when hit it will get diminished by its shield which regains as he keeps on dodging.. But when you are debuffed by DC or there are two DCs (or DC and MoF) in party oracle with teryfing insight and champion who can put out army, the TR gets best boost possible and the Shocking will be over 300k, no way you can HP tank it currently.
As an interesting aside on the latter, I chose an executioner load out for my TR to get some ACT info, and with hallowed ground + DC debuff I hit another player in Domi PVP for over 590K.
590K.
Just lol.
*addendum: Found the combat log 595638 SE to be exact
I don't have access to that tool, but I would be interested to know the numbers from the TR unbuffed by other classes. Potentially the issue is with over performance of a combination of features from other classes.
I hit 260-280K unbuffed/undebuffed on my MI EXE TR. The title is about "One shot build MI Executioner", which is precisely the issue with First strike and SoD.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
@sundance777 The overperformance of SE is mostly related to buffs from other classes. Even a sabo TR can hit for 400k+ SE easily with the right amount of team buffs. The 3 classes won't be able to dodge this either, no matter if exe, sabo or scoundrel TR. All of them will one shot you with buffs.
In my opinion the SW has it's immunity frame.
The OP has tons of temporary and shield HP.
The only class that could potentially complain is the GWF... but in times of wheel, lion mount and avalanche of steel I see no point to complain.
Adjusting is the key to survive.
I would agree with the above except for the most simple of things you have apparently overlooked. Daily canceling. TRs roll out, wait for temp HP to disappear, SW to use dodge, GWF to waste avalanche. Then insta death. If they even know they're coming. Sitting on node three which you're free capping, you hear the sound of imminent death of SE , try to pop any of the above and it may already be too late. Regardless, no class should be able to one shot a player for 280K sans buffs except SoD or First strike.
Honesty is the key to balance.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
...waits until the GF drops his shield, waits until the HR/CW/DC run out of stamina...then insta death I see.
I didn't know TR have that long stealth duration. If a TR can sneak to you unseen he must wasted a lot of his stealth meter already. Otherwise one have to take a look at his own battlefield awarness.
Smart player can always trick a oneshot TR, probably the reason why they always target "newbies" that doesn't know how to defend themselves.
It's a one trick pony - once figuered out how to prevent it - the TR gets pretty much useless. PC players figuered this out long time ago and specc'd into saboteur TRs.
Battle awarness is needed in PvP.
I know skilled players like yourself come here to try and make others aware of the best techniques because you care about the community. Telling players to run with mighty leap and avalanche is truly the mark of a creative player. I also know that you're here purely out of altruistic intent, unlike some players who I see frequently running GF/TR comps with itf and first strike who can hit for 400K which will insta kill even pallies using Binding oath for extra HP.
In coming here to share your selfless wisdom it's hard for you to understand those who are less altruistic and have ulterior motives in making sure First strike, for example, isn't adjusted for over-performance issues but I assure you, friend, there are those who do just that.
Whether it's those "newbies" who need to learn your pro techniques with mighty leap, or whether it's those duo Qing TRs + Buffer/debuffers I think for the sake of balance and for battle awareness to be useful these two issues need to be addressed. The idea that Sabo TRs are best for premades are something I have suggested before however others disagreed that EXE TRs are becoming a thing in premades, pro players like yourself as a matter of fact.
Regardless if Sabo TRs are needed for such *high end* PVP, pug players are just as important and balancing both ends of the spectrum is necessary for fun matches.
Thanks for your reply!
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
So you play OP with huge HP pool, constitution, boons etc. you put all possible HP gear and TR one hit kill, so you decide it's not fair? why this thread is different then any of the other 500 threads on this subject that were posted in the last 4 years or so.
don't get me wrong, i play cleric and i am magnet to SE. if there is one class that is completlty broken is TR (ITC, 75% deflect severity, one hit kill SE, CB impossible to dodge, smoke bomb ignore all control resist...) but as far as i remember you can complain on something that doesn't work, not about something that works. Looking at the tooltip and consider its there from start, SE designed to one hit kill.
lets assume the Dev will celebrate the wide spreading legalization, read this thread and decide to reduce SE damage by 20%. is it problem solved? even if 99% of the palyers dont have 200K HP
if your class can not dodge SE, then sure put a post and i promise to bump it every day. but if you think the TR get update soon and by some reason it will become weaker, you are wrong. all classes got stonger after update and i doubt TR will be different
So you play OP with huge HP pool, constitution, boons etc. you put all possible HP gear and TR one hit kill, so you decide it's not fair? why this thread is different then any of the other 500 threads on this subject that were posted in the last 4 years or so.
don't get me wrong, i play cleric and i am magnet to SE. if there is one class that is completlty broken is TR (ITC, 75% deflect severity, one hit kill SE, CB impossible to dodge, smoke bomb ignore all control resist...) but as far as i remember you can complain on something that doesn't work, not about something that works. Looking at the tooltip and consider its there from start, SE designed to one hit kill.
lets assume the Dev will celebrate the wide spreading legalization, read this thread and decide to reduce SE damage by 20%. is it problem solved? even if 99% of the palyers dont have 200K HP
if your class can not dodge SE, then sure put a post and i promise to bump it every day. but if you think the TR get update soon and by some reason it will become weaker, you are wrong. all classes got stonger after update and i doubt TR will be different
I didn't state first strike or SoD weren't working as intended, I stated they're overperforming. 3 classes have the potential to be one shotted in PVP because they have no dodge mechanism. No build should offer one shots in PVP imho. There should always be the possibility to fight. Being able to run around and one shot people with 250K HP pools because they have no dodge and cannot stack health high enough is silly.
The issue is not "complaining about something that works" or "doesn't work" it's about suggesting adjustment of a feat/passive that is clearly overperforming in PVP.
Thanks for your reply!
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
I understand your frustrations with this daily, especially if you play a dodgeless class, but the problem goes beyond just one daily. TRs in general are and have been one of the strongest classes in PvP for it's utility (insane aoe irresistible sb and cb) and damage. But dunk rogues as @xsayajinx1 pointed out are a one trick pony, and the bane of existence for new players mostly. Piercing damage is partially to blame for the high numbers on high tenacity targets though.
SE could be changed to have reduced piercing damage, that could alleviate some of the problem (or make tenacity reduce a percentage of piercing damage maybe). I think combat HRs would also benefit from this treatment as well. This is something to put a pin in until the next round of class balance passes.
I am a bit torn, on one hand it seems to be part of the nature of the class but on the other hand, maybe it does hit a bit too hard. I would gladly give up the first strike power or the piercing effect in pvp (say let tenacity block some of it) for some sort of at will love or other mechanics that are part of another post.
I understand your frustrations with this daily, especially if you play a dodgeless class, but the problem goes beyond just one daily. TRs in general are and have been one of the strongest classes in PvP for it's utility (insane aoe irresistible sb and cb) and damage. But dunk rogues as @xsayajinx1 pointed out are a one trick pony, and the bane of existence for new players mostly. Piercing damage is partially to blame for the high numbers on high tenacity targets though.
SE could be changed to have reduced piercing damage, that could alleviate some of the problem (or make tenacity reduce a percentage of piercing damage maybe). I think combat HRs would also benefit from this treatment as well. This is something to put a pin in until the next round of class balance passes.
Everyone on this forum who PVPs has been killed by a "one trick pony" even those saying they are only good for noob killing (I've seen it). There may be other issues facing the class, and it is badly in need of a rework. However none of these things actually have anything to do with the crux of the issue. Pug or Pro, Geared or ungeared, players should have a chance to fight against other players without being one shot. It's not a good PVP mechanic.
First strike and/or SoD procs on SE are overperforming as evidenced by the numbers. SE is meant to be a finishing blow, not a start to finishing blow, these feats and passives change that dynamic. If the intent were for SE + FS/SoD to be an assassination from 100% to 0 you would be able to kill bosses with it in this manner.
SE should be a massive finisher, perhaps even up to 80% of targets health, however it should not be an assassination. It should be strong but not a one shot. This is the purpose of bringing these overperforming damage indicators to light.
Thanks for your time.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
I agree with @xsayajinx1 , if you are looking for a problem then it is SE itself. First strike, Shadowborn and SoD are fine with every other ability, its only insane with SE, so if u want adjustment propose it for SE. Even if you nerfed current damage by 50%, when buffed you would still be killed by one shot, because 500k+ hits are possible. Also as mentioned, TR has no other source of damage in PvP with current meta, so if you nerf SE so TR cant kill you with it then TR wont be able to kill you at all. CB+SB would be all thats left. Also one shot kills are not NW-only thing, i have played another mmorpg and one shots are common by rogues, its simply what the class does. If it doesnt eliminate you swiftly it wont kill you.
I agree tho that currently SE is too powerful and needs to be toned down a bit, it shouldnt be possible to use it so often imo and i already suggested a block for AP gain after using SE. In my original suggestion in suggestions thread i suggested for SE to deal lower damage against targets above 50% HP (lowering the effect of FS) and higher damage against targets under 50% HP but currently TR cant get you under 50% HP without SE.
If one follows your "logic" then SE is overperforming itself regardless if one uses FS or executioner spec. Because in a team fight (what neverwinter offers - and team fights only) any SE can be buffed to the levels (and even higher) than an executioner FS SE. So the "finishing blow" becomes very quick a "start to finishing blow" regardless what spec the TR is and what passives he uses. SoD & FS mechanics do not overperform more than any other SE + buffs combo.
The point is, what else has a TR to offer damage wise (since it's supposed to be a dps class)? I already experienced it myself often enough, after a lowbob SE you will only see CB + SB until you vomit.
Guess that's the next thread that's going to pop up in here once SE is nerfed to the ground.
These mechanics are needed in a PvP environment like neverwinter where OPs and DCs can make a whole team immortal.
Balance for 5v5 / 10v10 - Don't balance for 1v1 / class vs class.
No, if a team coordinates to buff a TR's damage in order to clear a target that's perfectly acceptable. However a solo player (unbuffed) should not be able to one shot another player from 100% health to 0%. This concept must be difficult, let me make it clearer: First strike and SoD + SE is overperforming in PVP. It's hitting for 260K + unbuffed. IMHO SE is just fine. It should be powerful, it should be able to lower an opponents health or finish off an opponent who is lower on health. However no class should have a one shot ability which only this feat and passive are offering.
Thanks for your reply, if you have any further difficulties understanding me, I'll try to be more clear, sometimes these threads don't translate well and are difficult for players to grasp. Please let me know how I can better explain the situation.
Thanks for your reply!
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
I agree with @xsayajinx1 , if you are looking for a problem then it is SE itself. First strike, Shadowborn and SoD are fine with every other ability, its only insane with SE, so if u want adjustment propose it for SE. Even if you nerfed current damage by 50%, when buffed you would still be killed by one shot, because 500k+ hits are possible. Also as mentioned, TR has no other source of damage in PvP with current meta, so if you nerf SE so TR cant kill you with it then TR wont be able to kill you at all. CB+SB would be all thats left. Also one shot kills are not NW-only thing, i have played another mmorpg and one shots are common by rogues, its simply what the class does. If it doesnt eliminate you swiftly it wont kill you.
I agree tho that currently SE is too powerful and needs to be toned down a bit, it shouldnt be possible to use it so often imo and i already suggested a block for AP gain after using SE. In my original suggestion in suggestions thread i suggested for SE to deal lower damage against targets above 50% HP (lowering the effect of FS) and higher damage against targets under 50% HP but currently TR cant get you under 50% HP without SE.
It would be nice if SE had a cap (i.e. 85% of targets life in PVP) but most important to me is the overperformance of one shot build TRs in PVP using these feats/passives. Solo players should not be able to one shot 3 classes no matter how much HP they stack from 100% to 0%. The TR class needs a rework and it will be interesting to see what they do. However, until that happens I think this is an issue that needs to be addressed.
Thanks for your reply!
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
0
kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited June 2017
umm so you want to be able to solo withstand/contest the Tr on a node ....
but if his team comes to buff/ help him THEN its ok to die by shocking semantics regardless of first strike buffs/ TR Paragons or not
@sundance777 The overperformance of SE is mostly related to buffs from other classes. Even a sabo TR can hit for 400k+ SE easily with the right amount of team buffs. The 3 classes won't be able to dodge this either, no matter if exe, sabo or scoundrel TR. All of them will one shot you with buffs.
In my opinion the SW has it's immunity frame.
The OP has tons of temporary and shield HP.
The only class that could potentially complain is the GWF... but in times of wheel, lion mount and avalanche of steel I see no point to complain.
Adjusting is the key to survive.
At last a little sanity. I'm three times my pwe only do pvp for the conquerors. So that you do not cry but I'll tell you one thing. The exe is very soft. All our areas of effect have been reduced by half. The sod is no longer piercing damage they have nerfed now it affects tenacity and armor. Lasing with luker asault with first strike a bear of that of moving ice. Damage 260k SoD damage 80k. To tr of continuous they are ninjanerfeando in pwe and pvp thanks to your weeping. I with my gf or my cw mato rogues to tons. The shovel and the gf just have to lift the shield and the gwf and sw run. Before the shoking had an effect area of 70 feet is now 30 feet. I do not want nerfed.And we are very little thing. Gf or gwf complaining that they kill with an encounter people going full pvp. We use a daily easily esquibavle if you hear and run you never give
What annoys me is not that assassins can assassinate. TR being able to do absurd damage and even 1shot people Im actually ok with. What Im not OK with is a TR 1shotting a BIS tank while sporting the "amazing" 3000 critical stat and 4000 armor penetration stat. Damage should be tied to your build via stats. Free damage is the problem in this game's pvp. Rogues are able to build with 160-180k HP and a ton of power thanks to their class getting free critical chance AND free armor penetration - 2 stats that should be mandatory if you want to be a damage dealer.
Post edited by emilemo on
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Comments
What kills an action-oriented combat system? Massive piercing damage used on a class that cannot dodge.
The issue is not just the damage itself. The mechanics are an issue.
Example: GWF vs TR. GWF can potentially one-rotate the TR, but he has to time and aim his rotation perfectly, while the TR can spam dodge, CC and use ITC to defend himself effectively. On the other side, the GWF is a free target for the TR. All the TR must do is use DC sigil and spam SE (or 1-shot with SE), which against GWFs is like a free kill/ free hit. Which is a gameplay forced by the fact that most TRs powers are not effective, if i'm not mistaken. But, still, a lame mechanic that does not really fit in an action-oriented combat system.
Using powers listed by sayajin is an option, but it also means you have to use a rotation/ setup that, basically, works only to survive a single mechanic on a single class. It's adapting, yes. But quite extreme on one side, while the other side (the TR) can just use the same build and little effort.
Cryptic should in my opinion:
- reduce SE cast time to make it harder to dodge it
- make SE a finisher (insta kill only if the enemy is at 30-35% total HP) so that a TR needs to time it instead of throwing it whenever he feels like it, with always 100% effectiveness guaranteed
- buff other TRs powers to deal a lot of NORMAL (non piercing) damage (included AoE powers for PvE), since it's a pure DPS class. So that TRs can deal a lot of damage but only if they time their attacks correctly/ use some skill.
Would make TR class more fun to play. Right now, it looks quite un-fun. The only challenge is against yourself to build the toon properly and to do not mess your defensive rotation.
You can fix SE one-shot builds, but TR as it is now would still be un-fun. More balanced in the one-shot aspect, but still un-fun in my opinion, for players who look for some real action combat...
As you said, the GWF has the X% CHANCE to catch the TR, IF THE GWF IS EXPERIENCED AND SKILLED (or if the TR is unexperienced/ unskilled). The TR, on the other hand, regardless from skill and experience, has the 100% chance to hit and either 1-shot or root/debuff (what CB does in the end, even if it should be a "slow/debuff"). This is what i don't like. The fact that it's not just that the TR has the "upper hand", but literally a mechanic that allows him to freely kill or play with another class effortlessly. Press 1 button & done. See the difference? HR vs TR, the HR has the "upper hand" as you say. But still needs to fight, and the TR can fight back.
The mechanic itself is wrong. Even in a 5v5 scenario.
Even so, Domination is NOT the only PvP mode. We are supposed to have GG but also SH siege and, more important, open world PvP in IWD. IF THE GAME WAS WORKING CORRECTLY we should be able to play even in the open world environment. There, you have 5v5, 10v10, 20v20, but also, 1v1 scenarios.
However, while i do agree that PvP can be balanced with a kind of rock/paper/scissors system, i am absolutely sure that the current TR vs GWF interaction is wrong, for the reasons stated above. It does not allow for a "fight back" in the case of the SE-centric builds, and creates a scenario where one side does not just have the "upper hand", but rather the full control of the fight with zero skill involved.
Having the upper hand does not mean the ability to end the fight instantly with the use of 1 button, in my opinion. Or the need to completely change setup and even active artifact, simply to survive 1 class/build.
The basics of action combat (aim, time, and dodge, must be the foundations of every fight. Regardless of balance. When you take away these elements, the fights become trivial, pointless, and un-fun.
My opinion.
PS: it's not an attempt to nerf the one skill exc...but i'd ask to buff 99% of TR powers and balance 1 overperforming daily to really make TRs a real DPS class instead of a 1-trick clown in PvP...
It's, in my opinion, not true that TRs cannot be roworked to be fun and that the only way is to make them play the 1-shot SE way...It's, in my opinion, the only class that have a clear problem in the class MECHANICS, rather than in the sheer numbers...
Mod edit to fix broken code
590K.
Just lol.
*addendum: Found the combat log 595638 SE to be exact
Back to the OP's original post though I totally agree. No one should be able to get dunked with first strike for their whole bars. You can't have class balance when you can only get one hit by a class that can essentially pump fake your small immunity frame or daily to dodge theirs.
Suggestion:
1. Rework the passive into something else (No idea what to)
2. Rework shocking so it hits 50% weaker until 50% then harder after that percentage.
3. Make all the rogues dailies not cancel-able and perhaps a daily timer.
I don't want to handicap a class. I just feel that First strike and SoD are an issue when you can one shot most any BIS player no matter what their HP pool. Until an actual class rework I'd prefer not to touch SE. No need to neuter a class, just solve over performance issues.
Thanks for your reply.
exe for pve , and for pugs who want 1 shot a random pugs who doesn't even dodge or afk ppl. if u wanna do pvp seriously with team u have to be sabo and u have to play efficiently. otherwise people wipe out your team.
However, many GWFs, SWs, and Pallys who are one shotted via first strike and SoD exe builds in "pug" matches, I'm sure, would be glad to have a fighting chance. I think they deserve one. Knowing your fate is insta death when you see an MI EXE TR on the other team shouldn't be a thing for 3 classes. So it's something that should be looked at in terms of overperformance for class balancing.
Thanks for your reply!
Assailing Force:
Dealing damage to foes has a chance to grant you Assailant. When you have Assailant your next Encounter power deals 15% of the target's max HP as unresistable damage (max 800% weapon damage). This will only affect one target when used in an AoE. This feat is half as effective when used on Players.
Edit: added the tooltip of Assailing force.
Most importantly though, whatever method the devs would choose in order to correct this overperformance, it needs to be addressed. 3 Classes should not be vulnerable to one shots simply for lack of immunity frames and the ability to one hit for higher than Max HP pools.
Thanks for your reply!
As already said, some classes will always have advantage/disadvantage over other classes, otherwise team work loses it value if you can fight any class by yourself.
For the TR rework, if it ever happens, it was suggested to adjust SE accordingly. I have as well proposed a solution which is a nerf compared to current SE, but in hope stacking ArPen would be a thing again instead Recovery. Also it was suggested for many other abilities to be buffed to actually work even with ArPen and additional ArPen from Ability scores. Then a nerfed SE would make sense. There are few currently stacking ArPen but they are mostly WK which means they dont use SE anyway.
But when you actually look at the 3 trees and what they are supposed to do, ohko SE totally makes sense for Executioner tree. And it actually does what it promises. It has a special feat devoted to SE, it has Shadowborn and it has SoD. If it would not ohko it would be actually lame.
Problem is, it has no drawbacks. Problem is not that it can ohko, problem is that it can be used too often. Executioner is a Hit and Run play style, its just that currently you dont have to run because you can keep hitting. The drawbacks are something that should be worked on, something like can only be activated when behind the enemy or blocking AP gain like what Lurker's Assault does, just for longer time, maybe 20-30 secs where you are forced to run away and wait for your chance to do it again. Successful ohko is only "guaranteed" vs those 2-3 classes which cant avoid it and thats the disadvantage those classes have vs TR. This suggestion of blocking AP gain has its bad side as well, Saboteur would not be able to spam it, other classes can avoid it and you cant re-use it again in short period so you would have to increase animation speed so its harder to dodge it. Anyway no easy solution to it.
Nerfing First Strike is not a solution as well. Yes its overperforming but only with SE. First strike is a joke with any other ability so why destroy it while it is only problematic with SE. SE itself needs some adjustments but its hard to find the right thing. It should be able to ohko but needs far bigger drawbacks. Also canceling the animation should be fixed for all things.
SE while annoying is dodgeable or blockable for all but SWs and OPs. Does it need to be adjusted? Sure. But I think the perma builds need to go first for everyone's sake.
To clarify again: This is NOT a post about SE, it's about first strike and/or SoD procs on SE.
Thanks for your reply.
Mod edit to fix broken code on page.
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
Honesty is the key to balance.
In coming here to share your selfless wisdom it's hard for you to understand those who are less altruistic and have ulterior motives in making sure First strike, for example, isn't adjusted for over-performance issues but I assure you, friend, there are those who do just that.
Whether it's those "newbies" who need to learn your pro techniques with mighty leap, or whether it's those duo Qing TRs + Buffer/debuffers I think for the sake of balance and for battle awareness to be useful these two issues need to be addressed. The idea that Sabo TRs are best for premades are something I have suggested before however others disagreed that EXE TRs are becoming a thing in premades, pro players like yourself as a matter of fact.
Regardless if Sabo TRs are needed for such *high end* PVP, pug players are just as important and balancing both ends of the spectrum is necessary for fun matches.
Thanks for your reply!
you put all possible HP gear and TR one hit kill, so you decide it's not fair?
why this thread is different then any of the other 500 threads on this subject that were posted in the last 4 years or so.
don't get me wrong, i play cleric and i am magnet to SE.
if there is one class that is completlty broken is TR (ITC, 75% deflect severity, one hit kill SE, CB impossible to dodge, smoke bomb ignore all control resist...)
but as far as i remember you can complain on something that doesn't work, not about something that works.
Looking at the tooltip and consider its there from start, SE designed to one hit kill.
lets assume the Dev will celebrate the wide spreading legalization, read this thread and decide to reduce SE damage by 20%.
is it problem solved?
even if 99% of the palyers dont have 200K HP
if your class can not dodge SE, then sure put a post and i promise to bump it every day.
but if you think the TR get update soon and by some reason it will become weaker, you are wrong.
all classes got stonger after update and i doubt TR will be different
The issue is not "complaining about something that works" or "doesn't work" it's about suggesting adjustment of a feat/passive that is clearly overperforming in PVP.
Thanks for your reply!
I understand your frustrations with this daily, especially if you play a dodgeless class, but the problem goes beyond just one daily. TRs in general are and have been one of the strongest classes in PvP for it's utility (insane aoe irresistible sb and cb) and damage. But dunk rogues as @xsayajinx1 pointed out are a one trick pony, and the bane of existence for new players mostly. Piercing damage is partially to blame for the high numbers on high tenacity targets though.
SE could be changed to have reduced piercing damage, that could alleviate some of the problem (or make tenacity reduce a percentage of piercing damage maybe). I think combat HRs would also benefit from this treatment as well. This is something to put a pin in until the next round of class balance passes.
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
First strike and/or SoD procs on SE are overperforming as evidenced by the numbers. SE is meant to be a finishing blow, not a start to finishing blow, these feats and passives change that dynamic. If the intent were for SE + FS/SoD to be an assassination from 100% to 0 you would be able to kill bosses with it in this manner.
SE should be a massive finisher, perhaps even up to 80% of targets health, however it should not be an assassination. It should be strong but not a one shot. This is the purpose of bringing these overperforming damage indicators to light.
Thanks for your time.
Also as mentioned, TR has no other source of damage in PvP with current meta, so if you nerf SE so TR cant kill you with it then TR wont be able to kill you at all. CB+SB would be all thats left.
Also one shot kills are not NW-only thing, i have played another mmorpg and one shots are common by rogues, its simply what the class does. If it doesnt eliminate you swiftly it wont kill you.
I agree tho that currently SE is too powerful and needs to be toned down a bit, it shouldnt be possible to use it so often imo and i already suggested a block for AP gain after using SE.
In my original suggestion in suggestions thread i suggested for SE to deal lower damage against targets above 50% HP (lowering the effect of FS) and higher damage against targets under 50% HP but currently TR cant get you under 50% HP without SE.
Thanks for your reply, if you have any further difficulties understanding me, I'll try to be more clear, sometimes these threads don't translate well and are difficult for players to grasp. Please let me know how I can better explain the situation.
Thanks for your reply!
Thanks for your reply!
but if his team comes to buff/ help him THEN its ok to die by shocking semantics regardless of first strike buffs/ TR Paragons or not
thats what I gathered from all of this ... lol
Why not let piercing be mitigated by tenacity damage resistance ?
Piercing should not ignore tenacity !! haha.
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