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Shocking Execution still over-performing with one shot build MI executioners.

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  • ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
    Not true, you are lumping me in with others that have nothing to do with this thread. You simply want to be able to hit for 280K and I'm calling that overperforming. End of story, if you want to be overpowered it is your perogative, I want class balance and being able to one shot kill 3 classes with zero effort or skill is not achieving that goal mate. Arguments to the contrary are transparent.

    If you have issues with others and their posts that's between you and them. This is only about first strike and shadow of demise, it is you who keep trying to change topics. Shocking execution by itself needs no adjustment in my books.
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    Why not ask for immunity frames or a dodge encounter. Plus I'm not executioner.. so keep assuming. It is you lumping me in with other paragons.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
    edited May 2017

    Why not ask for immunity frames or a dodge encounter. Plus I'm not executioner.. so keep assuming.

    I'm not assuming anything, there's no need to ask for immunity frames when there's only one ability that is overperforming when combined with SoD or first strike. It's an easy fix. Thanks.

    Addendum: If you're not executioner then this likely won't even affect you at all. So, that's at least some good news.
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    It's not about it effecting me. I don't make arguments for selfish motives.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
  • ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
    Good, it is affecting a lot of players who would like to have a chance to fight rather than insta die to a single meta using overperforming feats and passives in combination with SE. So I'm glad you're not selfish and perhaps you'll think of those players who play classes like Pally, GWF, and SW. I'm sure they'd appreciate getting the opportunity to at least fight before being one shotted by this specific build.

    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    I can understand the original poster's point about certain TRs being able to dish out a lot of damage, however, these are usually BIS or near BIS TRs. BIS of any class are extremely strong.

    Having said that, TRs used to be my bane in PvP, however, that has changed a lot since Mod 6. They are not as strong as they once were. GFs on the other hand, since then, have become strong in all domains of PvP - shield, tankiness, burst damage, burst speed, buffing, debuffing, control (stuns and prone) and self-healing with Fighter's Recovery.

    As I primarily play a CW, and secondarily a DC, I can say that GFs are my current bane in PvP. Certain classes in PvP just have an inherent advantage over the other e.g. as a CW I can usually push DCs off their shield, while other classes may struggle to kill them.

    PvP should be a game of multiple classes working together. When I see a GF on the enemy team, I pray to Corellon that I have a good GF on my team, or at least a class that can answer to the strength of the GF, like a TR or HR, simply put, because of piercing damage.
    Post edited by vordayn on
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    edited May 2017

    This is an unacceptable, unavoidable, dodgeless, skilless ability. It needs to be addressed for its overperformance.

    From a CWs perspective, I can say the same thing about a GFs shield and burst damage/prone combo.
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • vordaynvordayn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,283 Arc User
    etelgrin said:

    Isn't it simply one of those nerf-TR threads.

    I would put on same wagon overperforming GF damage combined with nearly infinite stamina pool which gives them ability to try to deliver prone and bursty combo everytime their daily or bullcharge is available without alot of threat cause they can turtle behind the shield and even if you damage them all around there is still ubiquitious shield which greatly increases their survivability potential that this is not even a joke. The GF basically due to double mark only has to stack as much power as it takes and other statistics can be low like armor pen even or recovery and the GF set right with right passives on conqueror tree and right insignias on IV.

    Problem: Inifinte stamina allows to no brain turtle-and-burst till you die situations while on comfort zone.

    Agreed, note please @terramak
    Vordon CW        Vordayn DC        Axel Wolfric GWF        Logain SW        Gawyn GF        Galad OP        Aspen Darkfire HR        Min TR
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,079 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    vordayn said:

    This is an unacceptable, unavoidable, dodgeless, skilless ability. It needs to be addressed for its overperformance.

    From a CWs perspective, I can say the same thing about a GFs shield and burst damage/prone combo.
    The thread was created saying first strike feat is over performing .. not which classes and be rotated by other classes and by what powers
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,079 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    vordayn said:

    This is an unacceptable, unavoidable, dodgeless, skilless ability. It needs to be addressed for its overperformance.

    From a CWs perspective, I can say the same thing about a GFs shield and burst damage/prone combo.
    there are ways to counter / avoid that burst prone cc combo lol or at least stalemate it ... ogmas artifact comes to mind .
    and lots of movement stat stacking ...
  • ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
    vordayn said:

    etelgrin said:

    Isn't it simply one of those nerf-TR threads.

    I would put on same wagon overperforming GF damage combined with nearly infinite stamina pool which gives them ability to try to deliver prone and bursty combo everytime their daily or bullcharge is available without alot of threat cause they can turtle behind the shield and even if you damage them all around there is still ubiquitious shield which greatly increases their survivability potential that this is not even a joke. The GF basically due to double mark only has to stack as much power as it takes and other statistics can be low like armor pen even or recovery and the GF set right with right passives on conqueror tree and right insignias on IV.

    Problem: Inifinte stamina allows to no brain turtle-and-burst till you die situations while on comfort zone.

    Agreed, note please @terramak
    This particular post doesn't pertain to any other classes or abilities than MI EXE TRs, First strike, and SoD procs on shocking execution. Any other discussions should be in a separate post as they don't have anything to do with the OP. Thanks.
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,562 Arc User
    My personal opinion: Neverwinter strenght is the combat system. It's an action-oriented combat system. What's the point of an action-oriented combat system? The fact that it involves stuff like: aiming, distance, player movements, dodging.
    What kills an action-oriented combat system? Massive piercing damage used on a class that cannot dodge.

    The issue is not just the damage itself. The mechanics are an issue.

    Example: GWF vs TR. GWF can potentially one-rotate the TR, but he has to time and aim his rotation perfectly, while the TR can spam dodge, CC and use ITC to defend himself effectively. On the other side, the GWF is a free target for the TR. All the TR must do is use DC sigil and spam SE (or 1-shot with SE), which against GWFs is like a free kill/ free hit. Which is a gameplay forced by the fact that most TRs powers are not effective, if i'm not mistaken. But, still, a lame mechanic that does not really fit in an action-oriented combat system.

    Using powers listed by sayajin is an option, but it also means you have to use a rotation/ setup that, basically, works only to survive a single mechanic on a single class. It's adapting, yes. But quite extreme on one side, while the other side (the TR) can just use the same build and little effort.

    Cryptic should in my opinion:

    - reduce SE cast time to make it harder to dodge it
    - make SE a finisher (insta kill only if the enemy is at 30-35% total HP) so that a TR needs to time it instead of throwing it whenever he feels like it, with always 100% effectiveness guaranteed
    - buff other TRs powers to deal a lot of NORMAL (non piercing) damage (included AoE powers for PvE), since it's a pure DPS class. So that TRs can deal a lot of damage but only if they time their attacks correctly/ use some skill.

    Would make TR class more fun to play. Right now, it looks quite un-fun. The only challenge is against yourself to build the toon properly and to do not mess your defensive rotation.

    You can fix SE one-shot builds, but TR as it is now would still be un-fun. More balanced in the one-shot aspect, but still un-fun in my opinion, for players who look for some real action combat...

  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,562 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    Note, i was not discussing if the TR can kill the GWF or not (while, keeping tyrion post into account about 1-shots on paladins, we can say a GWF can still get 1-shotted by a BiS TR built for that purpose), but the mechanic.
    As you said, the GWF has the X% CHANCE to catch the TR, IF THE GWF IS EXPERIENCED AND SKILLED (or if the TR is unexperienced/ unskilled). The TR, on the other hand, regardless from skill and experience, has the 100% chance to hit and either 1-shot or root/debuff (what CB does in the end, even if it should be a "slow/debuff"). This is what i don't like. The fact that it's not just that the TR has the "upper hand", but literally a mechanic that allows him to freely kill or play with another class effortlessly. Press 1 button & done. See the difference? HR vs TR, the HR has the "upper hand" as you say. But still needs to fight, and the TR can fight back.

    The mechanic itself is wrong. Even in a 5v5 scenario.

    Even so, Domination is NOT the only PvP mode. We are supposed to have GG but also SH siege and, more important, open world PvP in IWD. IF THE GAME WAS WORKING CORRECTLY we should be able to play even in the open world environment. There, you have 5v5, 10v10, 20v20, but also, 1v1 scenarios.

    However, while i do agree that PvP can be balanced with a kind of rock/paper/scissors system, i am absolutely sure that the current TR vs GWF interaction is wrong, for the reasons stated above. It does not allow for a "fight back" in the case of the SE-centric builds, and creates a scenario where one side does not just have the "upper hand", but rather the full control of the fight with zero skill involved.

    Having the upper hand does not mean the ability to end the fight instantly with the use of 1 button, in my opinion. Or the need to completely change setup and even active artifact, simply to survive 1 class/build.

    The basics of action combat (aim, time, and dodge, must be the foundations of every fight. Regardless of balance. When you take away these elements, the fights become trivial, pointless, and un-fun.

    My opinion.

    PS: it's not an attempt to nerf the one skill exc...but i'd ask to buff 99% of TR powers and balance 1 overperforming daily to really make TRs a real DPS class instead of a 1-trick clown in PvP...
    It's, in my opinion, not true that TRs cannot be roworked to be fun and that the only way is to make them play the 1-shot SE way...It's, in my opinion, the only class that have a clear problem in the class MECHANICS, rather than in the sheer numbers...

    Mod edit to fix broken code
    Post edited by kreatyve on
  • ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    etelgrin said:

    Sorry to be telling you this but "immunity frame" in fact is not that great and has a cooldown, while rogue can no problem simply cancel the Shocking Execution animation and deliver the hit a moment later with the same effect. CW on the other hand with Elven or Gas Spore can probably just outdodge the incoming Shocking and even when hit it will get diminished by its shield which regains as he keeps on dodging.. But when you are debuffed by DC or there are two DCs (or DC and MoF) in party oracle with teryfing insight and champion who can put out army, the TR gets best boost possible and the Shocking will be over 300k, no way you can HP tank it currently.

    As an interesting aside on the latter, I chose an executioner load out for my TR to get some ACT info, and with hallowed ground + DC debuff I hit another player in Domi PVP for over 590K.

    590K.

    Just lol. :D

    *addendum: Found the combat log 595638 SE to be exact
    Post edited by ltgamesttv#0999 on
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • trentbail21trentbail21 Member Posts: 433 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    PC must be pretty different if there isnt much complaining about SE from GWFs. Right now GWFs, SWs and pallies NEVER SEE THE INSIDE OF A SERIOUS QUE SYNC on XBOX. Because they will just get murdered. Until you can actually justify picking up these above classes and not think in the back of your head "OMG not a gwf, sw or pally" then its not balanced. Im sorry its just not.

    Back to the OP's original post though I totally agree. No one should be able to get dunked with first strike for their whole bars. You can't have class balance when you can only get one hit by a class that can essentially pump fake your small immunity frame or daily to dodge theirs.

    Suggestion:
    1. Rework the passive into something else (No idea what to)
    2. Rework shocking so it hits 50% weaker until 50% then harder after that percentage.
    3. Make all the rogues dailies not cancel-able and perhaps a daily timer.
    Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
  • ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User

    PC must be pretty different if there isnt much complaining about SE from GWFs. Right now GWFs, SWs and pallies NEVER SEE THE INSIDE OF A SERIOUS QUE SYNC on XBOX. Because they will just get murdered. Until you can actually justify picking up these above classes and not think in the back of your head "OMG not a gwf, sw or pally" then its not balanced. Im sorry its just not.

    Back to the OP's original post though I totally agree. No one should be able to get dunked with first strike for their whole bars. You can't have class balance when you can only get one hit by a class that can essentially pump fake your small immunity frame or daily to dodge theirs.

    Suggestion:
    1. Rework the passive into something else (No idea what to)
    2. Rework shocking so it hits 50% weaker until 50% then harder after that percentage.
    3. Make all the rogues dailies not cancel-able and perhaps a daily timer.

    Under the current meta I think this is too much of a nerf. SE is their ONLY source of real damage in PVP atm. If you nerf SE they have nothing with which to do damage and will be relegated to CB. If you then put a cool down on CB they will have only SB.

    I don't want to handicap a class. I just feel that First strike and SoD are an issue when you can one shot most any BIS player no matter what their HP pool. Until an actual class rework I'd prefer not to touch SE. No need to neuter a class, just solve over performance issues.

    Thanks for your reply.
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • crollaxcrollax Member Posts: 255 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    u only talk mate,but u have no clue what about u even talking. come and show that ``broken`` sod first strike damage to us in pre vs pre. or go and kill pugs on solo que with first strike :D

    exe for pve , and for pugs who want 1 shot a random pugs who doesn't even dodge or afk ppl. if u wanna do pvp seriously with team u have to be sabo and u have to play efficiently. otherwise people wipe out your team.

    Post edited by crollax on
  • ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    crollax said:

    u only talk mate,but u have no clue what about u even talking. come and show that ``broken`` sod first strike damage to us in pre vs pre. or go and kill pugs on solo que with first strike :D

    exe for pve , and for pugs who want 1 shot a random pugs who doesn't even dodge or afk ppl. if u wanna do pvp seriously with team u have to be sabo and u have to play efficiently. otherwise people wipe out your team.

    In which case this won't even affect you, since there is *so* much Pre vs. Pre these days and I'm certain because of all that high end PVP you play sabo. In which case, this post probably doesn't even address your playstyle at all.

    However, many GWFs, SWs, and Pallys who are one shotted via first strike and SoD exe builds in "pug" matches, I'm sure, would be glad to have a fighting chance. I think they deserve one. Knowing your fate is insta death when you see an MI EXE TR on the other team shouldn't be a thing for 3 classes. So it's something that should be looked at in terms of overperformance for class balancing.

    Thanks for your reply!
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • ivansinkovic1ivansinkovic1 Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited June 2017
    Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to add something like Assailing force (CW - thaum, final feat) on SE:

    Assailing Force:
    Dealing damage to foes has a chance to grant you Assailant. When you have Assailant your next Encounter power deals 15% of the target's max HP as unresistable damage (max 800% weapon damage). This will only affect one target when used in an AoE. This feat is half as effective when used on Players.

    Edit: added the tooltip of Assailing force.
  • ltgamesttv#0999 ltgamesttv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User

    Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to add something like Assailing force (CW - thaum, final feat) on SE:

    Assailing Force:
    Dealing damage to foes has a chance to grant you Assailant. When you have Assailant your next Encounter power deals 15% of the target's max HP as unresistable damage (max 800% weapon damage). This will only affect one target when used in an AoE. This feat is half as effective when used on Players.

    Edit: added the tooltip of Assailing force.

    This is precisely what I would like to do. However I've had limited success with suggestions in the past on changing powers to do different things in PVP than in PVE. I would love to see first strike halved in effectiveness or SoD halved in effectiveness on SE in PVP only.This would be the BEST solution.

    Most importantly though, whatever method the devs would choose in order to correct this overperformance, it needs to be addressed. 3 Classes should not be vulnerable to one shots simply for lack of immunity frames and the ability to one hit for higher than Max HP pools.

    Thanks for your reply!
    On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"

    imgur pics don't work


  • blur#5900 blur Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    Thing is there is no easy solution to this. I am not a PvP player but i have discussed this matter a lot with PvPers so i hope i have at least some understanding of PvP problems which involve TR.
    As already said, some classes will always have advantage/disadvantage over other classes, otherwise team work loses it value if you can fight any class by yourself.

    For the TR rework, if it ever happens, it was suggested to adjust SE accordingly. I have as well proposed a solution which is a nerf compared to current SE, but in hope stacking ArPen would be a thing again instead Recovery. Also it was suggested for many other abilities to be buffed to actually work even with ArPen and additional ArPen from Ability scores. Then a nerfed SE would make sense. There are few currently stacking ArPen but they are mostly WK which means they dont use SE anyway.
    But when you actually look at the 3 trees and what they are supposed to do, ohko SE totally makes sense for Executioner tree. And it actually does what it promises. It has a special feat devoted to SE, it has Shadowborn and it has SoD. If it would not ohko it would be actually lame.
    Problem is, it has no drawbacks. Problem is not that it can ohko, problem is that it can be used too often. Executioner is a Hit and Run play style, its just that currently you dont have to run because you can keep hitting. The drawbacks are something that should be worked on, something like can only be activated when behind the enemy or blocking AP gain like what Lurker's Assault does, just for longer time, maybe 20-30 secs where you are forced to run away and wait for your chance to do it again. Successful ohko is only "guaranteed" vs those 2-3 classes which cant avoid it and thats the disadvantage those classes have vs TR. This suggestion of blocking AP gain has its bad side as well, Saboteur would not be able to spam it, other classes can avoid it and you cant re-use it again in short period so you would have to increase animation speed so its harder to dodge it. Anyway no easy solution to it.

    Nerfing First Strike is not a solution as well. Yes its overperforming but only with SE. First strike is a joke with any other ability so why destroy it while it is only problematic with SE. SE itself needs some adjustments but its hard to find the right thing. It should be able to ohko but needs far bigger drawbacks. Also canceling the animation should be fixed for all things.
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