Shocking Execution still over-performing with one shot build MI executioners.

ltgamesttv

Long story short, we've talked about this for ages. If you build MI executioner with all the power buffing feats and use either first strike or place smokebomb in order to proc the capstone you can hit greater than 280K HP SEs, unbuffed by other players. With GF or DC or Pally buffs it is possible to hit higher. My paladin has 227K HP base before buffs. You'd think this much HP would buffer at least a SE or two. However this is NOT the case because of builds and proccing capstones and/or passives. I offer this ACT log where I got one shotted multiple times during a match. Guys this is silly, please address this overperformance. @terramak

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ltgamesttv

@etelgrin This is not a nerf TR thread, nor was it meant to be a nerf every class except SW. This was an issue with one particular feat tree in combination with the passive and shocking execution. I see you eventually mention the issue in your post of every class is overperforming.

My issue is only with S.E. doing 200K + and I can show exactly how this is accomplished. Noone should be one shotted unless below 50% health imho. However, the main issue is that SE can one shot any class without a dodge and/or Temp damage shield. Being able to do 260K damage + with a single hit is too much. It requires zero timing or skill on classes such as GWF and Pally, it requires minimal effort vs. Warlock. Other classes just wait till they are CCd and they die.

This type of hitting 2 buttons so that any class no matter how high their HP pool gets one shotted is completely unbalanced and needs to be addressed. Thanks for your reply.

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ltgamesttv

etelgrin said:

I believe as Shocking was initially designed the purpose was a finisher skill, so that the suspected fight would be first to control & damage your enemy down then when HP pool is low enough use Shocking as finisher-move, and at low TIL it is somewhat like this. When you put things right, you end up having a one skill wonder instead. Like I said this is one of many one punch man mechanics in this game available.

People always read my posts as if I'm complaining about Shocking and it's never been the case. My posts have ALWAYS been about the passive first strike and the MI Exe build where when you go in stealth you gain 100% power and SOD procs off SB + SE. These are the issues I always state, and these are the issues that people always seem to skip and go directly for "you're trying to nerf SE."

No other class has a "one punch man" effect, perhaps a one rotation effect if you don't dodge or use defensive mechanisms. My SW can survive 1v1 vs. anything indefinitely. I can survive 2v1 vs. most classes indefinitely unless it's HR and GF or TR, then I can survive for a while.

Please guys, read my post, SE is fine as a finisher, it's not fine as a one shot and the only way one shots are accomplished at high health pool is by using these feats in combination with first strike. Two easy fixes would be to half the effectiveness of first strike in PVP only. The second would be that the damage of SE would be capped at say 180K in PVP Until health pools are raised more.

Something easy like this.

lightaven

Delete comment please.

loboguild

Have to say I don't generally dislike a skill that is able to execute a player, but it has to come with a pretty significant downside. In the current state of the game where you can easily spam dailies it's just not very balanced.

A major cooldown like Hallowed Ground might already do the trick. More like 90 than 60 seconds though. You could also go into a different direction and say that a TR completely exposes itself for the execution. So for 15 seconds, all defensive ratings (Deflect, Deflect Severity, Defense, Life Steal, Stealth Meter, Stamina), are set to 0 and cannot refill. That would require a TR to be a lot more decisive when it comes to executing somebody, because you might not have the skill for ~45 seconds or trade the kill for your own death.​​

ltgamesttv

loboguild said:

Have to say I don't generally dislike a skill that is able to execute a player, but it has to come with a pretty significant downside. In the current state of the game where you can easily spam dailies it's just not very balanced.



A major cooldown like Hallowed Ground might already do the trick. More like 90 than 60 seconds though. You could also go into a different direction and say that a TR completely exposes itself for the execution. So for 15 seconds, all defensive ratings (Deflect, Deflect Severity, Defense, Life Steal, Stealth Meter, Stamina), are set to 0 and cannot refill. That would require a TR to be a lot more decisive when it comes to executing somebody, because you might not have the skill for ~45 seconds or trade the kill for your own death.​​

While I appreciate the thought behind this, the issue is the one shot. I don't want to change TR mechanics, nor Shocking execution as: 1) it's probably a lot of work 2) TR is fine imho besides this issue. I just want the one shot specific mechanics altered for PVP. I don't want to change PVE at all, they don't need a nerf. I know they're getting an overhaul soon. In the mean time, just take away this sill one shot ability where TRs run around and execute node after node of players with the click of 2 buttons.

Imho even if SE was given a CD, they STILL should not be able to one shot someone with greater than 200K HP, that's plain silly.
Thanks for your reply.

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ltgamesttv

etelgrin said:

Sounds like @loboguild guy is proposing a sugestions to the build that would have never existed in first place under these circumstances, because who would play a TR with a downside that his defensives are reduced to 0 for a one shot and thus getting rekt next second in the end it doesn't change odds on node so it won't matter and why? The thing is with it, you got to be silent assasin, you kill and they don't kill you in return, else there is no silent assasin. People would simply play perma CBs because its far more effective than Shocking anyway already, even was with the burning sets actually. You aren't exposed, you can CB and stealth then normally, even nearly perma-stealth that only blinks for a sec. Think about it.

When SE does 260K, CB is no longer more effective.

trentbail21

Shocking execution and courage breaker are two ridiculous dailies because they are be resisted. To make it more fair Id say put courage breaker as a whisperknife only daily and add a 20 second timer to it so it cant be spammed. That and I would put at least a 25% piercing dmg resistance stat on 2000 tenacity. Would make it worth stacking really high again.

First strike is pretty crazy as it is right now.. I play a gwf and get dunked for over 280k daily doesn't seem that fair to me to be honest lol especially since they have 75% deflect severity and near perma ITC so they take almost no damage. Trs, gfs and hrs need alot of work and balancing tbh.

While your at it ARC make Gwfs unstoppable break out of Courage Breaker that would be great. This way at least one class would be good fighting trs and we could actually get picked up by more premades..

ltgamesttv

trentbail21 said:

Shocking execution and courage breaker are two ridiculous dailies because they are be resisted. To make it more fair Id say put courage breaker as a whisperknife only daily and add a 20 second timer to it so it cant be spammed. That and I would put at least a 25% piercing dmg resistance stat on 2000 tenacity. Would make it worth stacking really high again.

First strike is pretty crazy as it is right now.. I play a gwf and get dunked for over 280k daily doesn't seem that fair to me to be honest lol especially since they have 75% deflect severity and near perma ITC so they take almost no damage. Trs, gfs and hrs need alot of work and balancing tbh.

While your at it ARC make Gwfs unstoppable break out of Courage Breaker that would be great. This way at least one class would be good fighting trs and we could actually get picked up by more premades..

I don't disagree that CB is a ton of CC, and actually wrote about it once, however it's not the focus of this post. THe bit about the 280K SE is. It's easily fixable for just PVP and can make playing much more enjoyable for classes without damage immunity frames. I agree it needs to be adjusted.

Thanks for your reply.

loboguild

etelgrin wrote: »

Sounds like @loboguild guy is proposing a sugestions to the build that would have never existed in first place under these circumstances, because who would play a TR with a downside that his defensives are reduced to 0 for a one shot and thus getting rekt next second in the end it doesn't change odds on node so it won't matter and why? The thing is with it, you got to be silent assasin, you kill and they don't kill you in return, else there is no silent assasin. People would simply play perma CBs because its far more effective than Shocking anyway already, even was with the burning sets actually. You aren't exposed, you can CB and stealth then normally, even nearly perma-stealth that only blinks for a sec. Think about it.

Let's not add role-playing to conversations about mechanics, that's stupid. I don't care if a TR is supposed to be an assassin, probably no class is accurately matching its D&D lore here. And if people preferred more security / survivability by not using SE, than I guess my proposal did what it was supposed to.

I don't say it's perfect, but I like the general thought of giving an execution a significant downside. You can still do it, but have to be more decisive. And the opposing team can easily counter a one-shotting TR by sending a second players and exploit the vulnerability. Any "fix" needs to come with a better risk vs. reward value. Currently you have no risk, all the rewards in terms of SE.

Plus: Is SE even a thing in PVE? I don't see many players using it.​​

rayrdan

ye and their at will should heal the enemy!
oh wait..it happens

plavia

i think you submit similar post 2 years ago.

anyone saying SE is not one hit kill did not play single PVP match in is life.
ppl compare 220K, 250K... HP.
in reality 99% of the players don't have 150K.

as ppl above said , the real question is if one hit kill power should exist.

nezdin

I like the fact that TRs have a one shot kill power. It adds flavour and uniqueness to the class which is supposed to be a silent deadly assassin. It also adds a very different strategy when trying to survive vs a TR compared to say, a GF or CW. I am in favour of a one shot encounter but only under the condition that all classes have a chance at either (1) dodging it or (2) surviving it, for classes with no dodge (by taking a big loss in HP). If I am not fast enough to dodge SE, get CC-ed and shot then good for the TR, too bad for me. The animation cancel should be removed though.

ltgamesttv

nezdin#5514 said:

I like the fact that TRs have a one shot kill power. It adds flavour and uniqueness to the class which is supposed to be a silent deadly assassin. It also adds a very different strategy when trying to survive vs a TR compared to say, a GF or CW. I am in favour of a one shot encounter but only under the condition that all classes have a chance at either (1) dodging it or (2) surviving it, for classes with no dodge (by taking a big loss in HP). If I am not fast enough to dodge SE, get CC-ed and shot then good for the TR, too bad for me. The animation cancel should be removed though.

If all classes had a dodge mechanic, or immunity frames as I mentioned it might be a bit more fair, unfortunately they don't. Even if that were the case though, getting CC'd once at full health and then dying to a one shot is silly imho. If you stack 200K + life, you should be able to survive at least one SE.

What I propose is a minimal effort fix. Halving the effectiveness of first strike in PVP or limiting SE's damage to 180K in PVP only. This fixes the problem if you stack enough HP yet still makes it dangerous for most classes. Two of them back to back will still kill you but one shots at end game will not happen.

ltgamesttv

I would also add, as a separate but related issue is the continued allowing of more than 1 of a class in PVP makes this even more pertinent. If you could only have one TR on each side in a match then there's only so many kills they can get at once. They could come in and assassinate a toon but then they have to run to another node, so there is some time and safety involved for clearing nodes. When there are 4 TRs (2 on each side) running around one shotting everyone then it becomes even more ridiculous. I still would love to see forced rainbows allowing only 1 of each class. Forcing diversity and making games more balanced. This, is a little off topic but certainly still relevant, however I don't want to derail my own post, just throw this thought out there as well.

josiahiyon

Would another option be to have piercing damage impacted by tenacity?

ltgamesttv

josiahiyon said:

Would another option be to have piercing damage impacted by tenacity?

While this might seem like a solution, the whole point of piercing damge is so that you can increase the damage of lower DPS classes in PVP without greatly afffecting PVE. In PVE as long as you have 60% RI you are giving full damage to mobs and bosses so piercing damage means nothing, it's just additional damage. However in PVP there is so much DR and tenacity DR and DR from feats, boons, abilities, encounter powers, and enchants that you have to have an ungodly amount of either 1) Arm pen/RI 2) Base damage + damage buffs so that post mitigation it's still significant burst damage or 3) Piercing damage for classes that can't buff their damage or superstack RI.

In other words the reason HRs and TRs have piercing damage is because their base damage sucks. The reason GF has huge damage when you focus on power is because of their very decent base damage and then huge buffs from feats, passives, and encounters; same goes for GWF.

Piercing damage, in short, is a shortcut. Take it away or decrease it with tenacity and HRs will go from being really good to never killing anything as combat. TRs will go from being really good (too good with first strike and SoD) to being absolutely terrible because SE is literally the ONLY damage they have in PVP.

This is why I'm not a huge fan of piercing damage tenacity. It has the potential to nullify certain builds and/or specific classes. The BEST but most time consuming answer to this problem is to buff and balance base damage so that piercing damage is no longer required. However, this would most likely be a very time consuming endeavor so I try to present the quickest answer with the least collateral damage to other builds/specs/feats/classes/affects in PVE.

Thanks for your reply.

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ltgamesttv

xsayajinx1 said:

I will share my PoV about Shocking Execution in general (sabo/exe build).



There is two different PoV's you have to differ from.

1.) Premade Matches

2.) Pug Matches







I uploaded this video for this purpose only because I think it represents the current situation about SE in both categories very well.



The 1st SE you see in the video fits category 1.) where you get heavily debuffed. In my case: 5x Valhalla set (15% dmg debuff), feytouch (27.666% dmg debuff), TR ward ( 10% - 20% dmg debuff depending on SH guild boon).

I am not fully buffed up myself but Fury buff from CW makes up my lack of self-buffs.



If you now face a team that has a Devotion Pally and/or Heal DC there is no chance to clear anything if you are all the time debuffed. Because shocking would always hit in the range of 90-120k.



If you cap it to 180k - the actual SE after debuffs would hit like 60-90k only while players have 200k+ HP these days...



The 2nd SE at the very end of the video fits category 2.) You are not debuffed at all and got lots of time to prepare your self-buffs (got also TI from DC).



At this point I have to say: yes 250k might be a bit overkill but if it has to be overkill in PuG matches to be more viable than perma CB spam in premade matches, then I will take this overkillness upon me from time to time as dedicated GWF player in order to have more exciting PMvsPM's.

I don't need to watch the video having watched the difference between sabo and exe and the difference between Premade and Pug matches on many occasion. Firstly, there is no PM TR who plays an Exe as they have no use besides the one shot build. Secondarily, first strike is too strong and there should never be any one shots, end of story imho. Thirdly, you play GF, HR, GWF, CW and TR... if not more classes so you are not just a "dedicated GWF" and you often enjoy the company of a TR in your Duo Qs.

The issue is this... first strike + Exe builds hits upwards of 260-280K unbuffed, also undebuffed. Most TRs 1v1 are debuffed, if they are sabo because..... they aren't one shotting 1v1 they are contesting nodes. All Exe builds only attempt a one shot and run away.. therefore they only build for the one shot kill and will not be debuffed because they will only come in stealth while first strike is up, or they will use SB + SoD to proc the capstone from SE as well.

Premades are not the only concern here, pugs who stack HP should not be punished for PMers who want to one shot someone at mid. When I say 180K max I mean that if they were going to be hit for 260K it gets debuffed down to 180K after debuffs are included, not before. I.E. a 260K debuffed to 190K still becomes 180K not a 260K SE gets debuffed down to 180K then other debuffs apply.

If you feel that a TR should at any time be able to hit for more than 180K under existing conditions. I completely disagree. It negates HP stacking meaning you might as well go for Defense and just accept the one shots (if not for HRs piercing damage). This is unacceptable to anyone who mains a GWF or Pally and potentially an SW premade or otherwise.

Now, as a compromise, you could change SoD so that it doesn't affect SE but that may be a PVE nerf that PVEers are unwilling to accept, not being familiar with how they feel about Boss fights with SE and SoD I'd leave that to them to discuss.

tl;DR SE is a strong finishing move, an execution on a target who's been brought below full health. It was NEVER meant to be an easy mode 2 button win under any circumstances. This is over-performing and needs to be addressed.

Thanks for your reply.

Addendum: If you notice the TRs that one shotted me actually were "debuffed", I had a shield that shielded me for 36K+ HP and still got one shotted. This is silly and should be rectified either through altering 1) First strike in PVP 2) Capping SE damage 3) Changing SoD's interaction with SE. Both first strike and SoD have the potential to one shot any opponent. These need to be addressed, if not by my suggestion then some other way.

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ltgamesttv

xsayajinx1 said:

1.) There is exe PM TRs that play smokebomb --> stealth --> SE --> SoD procc.



2.) No TR uses SE in PvE



3.) High burst is needed in PMvsPM and I have to honestly admit that I don't care about PuG vs PuG or duo/trio vs whatever.



Because the most "balanced" matchup is PMvsPM right now, and imho TR is just fine there.

You are completely welcome to your opinion on PMvsPM, if PM TRs have started going this build... well... let's say it's a new thing and it's an interesting change, not a welcome one at that imho. We used to prefer skill over one shots as PM groups.

That said, high burst is needed. If you think 180K is not high burst... then... well... I don't know what to tell you.

It was evident in your first post that you don't care about pug vs Pug. I prefer premades as well, as they are most definitely the most balanced matchups, but they're also 1% of actual fights. So I write posts that I think will benefit all PVP the most. One shots have no place in PVP imho, therefore I will have to respectfully disagree about Executioner build one shot TRs. However this doesn't apply to Sabo's except that first strike can cause them to do insanely high damage as well. Capping damage at 180K for an SE when health pools max at around 230K for most toons seems adequate to me as a finishing move. If the intention is to simply outright kill a helpless class like GWF then I think this is poor balancing.

As an afterthought I thought of another potential "fix", that SE does max 80-85% of max HP piercing damage in PVP. This would be an easier fix than perhaps the other two ideas.

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ltgamesttv

havok#4814 said:

I think you're overestimating how powerful SE really is, yes if you know what you're doing at level 70 with your boons, feats, buffs, AP gain and Class Features you can probably 1shot someone.

However, I think you're missing the impracticality of actually doing it. Most classes can dodge, especially other TRs, HRs, SWs, CWs and sometimes very quick GWFs. So against those classes you usually have to fire it off at least twice.
For Tanks, by raising a GFs shield they can mitigate the damage slightly, and it certainly isn't possible to 1shot a full HP Shield up GF. without being buffed (or if you're a pug).

The real issue you should all be worrying about is the feat on the scoundrel skill tree that does 100% of your damage whilst in stealth as piercing damage. That's actually how I now use my tankbuster build. It allows me to forget about SE and, with First Strike and T.Dread, crit for about 90k indefinitely without having to think twice about armour penetration. (This is lvl 60-69 PvP BTW).

Now I don't really consider my self overpowered, because I don't have a T.Dread and any TR should know lashing misses a target at 99% chance to miss. (It's broken and so are all TR animations). However, if I'm fighting bis, usually I can do a 1 rotation-kills-all fairly easily finishing with SE and a Finisher. Sometimes I might fire it off at pugs and get a 1shot but that's their fault for being bad, not mine for being OP.

So the point is, no it isn't really overpowered, because exactly how many times have you been killed by a TR that doesn't use SE (Apart from me I don't count cause nobody else uses my build) huh? Pretty much all the time you say? That's because, unless you're a PvE TR, there's no alternative place to do damage from. So yes it may seem powerful, but at the end of the day until TRs get an alternate source of DPS it's pretty much all you can do.

(This ignores permastealth builds because they're basically a waste of time, require more brains for your bang, and are genuinely less effective than other TR builds unless 1v1ing a TR... but that's boring anyway and nobody does it).

If you're the same individual who said GF shield does not mitigate SE it makes sense that this post continues with the same misinformation. I am not missing anything about SE I have shown the ACT of damage done during actual matches. If you don't know how to properly use or build towards SE then that may be the issue. This post not only doesn't apply to any dread users (as most any PVPing TRs use Vorpal), but it doesn't apply to players less than level 70 as it's not the main source of PVP and is not going to be focused on for balancing purposes.

Scoundrel feat tree, last I tested was broken. You don't get the damage you're supposed to.

I can't really address your entire post because it's full of misinformation and if you're less than level 70 doing PVP, it doesn't really matter what your input is, you'll be level 70 in a few days.

I appreciate that you're trying to give feedback, but it's simply not correct. If you'd like to discuss more detailed info, or get a better more effective build, feel free to message me.

Thanks for your reply.

luks707

I gotta say - I am genuinely surprised at the amount of people who seem to think that one-shotting people is somehow worth keeping as a feature. It is one of the biggest turn-offs for new PVPers, and even for more experienced people like myself it is a stand-out feature of "this is just broken". Yes, of course there are lots of other things that are needing balanced, but I would like to think most people should agree there is no reason why any player should be able to one-shot another. Especially without any chance of defending themselves.
As to the specific issue - I would like to highlight that piercing damage is a factor here too. I do think it needs to be looked at.
That said - I see the introduction of loadouts and of comprehensive item level as huge potential pluses for PVP - so fingers crossed something like this will get looked at.
And yes - I do think these changes need to come as part of a wider re-work, but in the short term the most extreme issues should be fixed. This (and some of the others listed by etelgrin) counts.

ltgamesttv

To bring this discussion back to its actual topic, being killed from full health in an unavoidable manner (as is the problem for multiple classes) is very disatisfying to the player.

Any time you are helpless against an equal geared opponent it is frustrating. Any time you are sent back to the campfire from full health because your opponent: 1) Went stealth 2) pressed 1 it is game breaking.

Please consider the options aforementioned in order to create a more balanced PVP experience.
Thanks

schietindebux

Not much I could add to this topic because I refuse to PVP since mod 9… but this oneshot kills are an issue for so long now (mod 5?) , i guess more in PUG matches than in PM's, and I never read a single statement from devs side.
Imo it is one from 1000 topics to get addressed in PVP, and by far not the most important, but thinking of the last response from devs side, I am nor very optimistic.

forumnamesuxs

@schietindebux
The last dev to actually care about, and want PvP to be good, have long since given up on even trying, and is probably too shamefull to even visit this part of the forums. I am sure of it.

@tolkienbuff
A mixed bag of on/off topic here, but I started typing, and just couldn't stop:

The TR rework is coming. For the love of whatever might be holy to you, do not ask them to make CB smoke spamming the only viable path for TR's.
I'll take one shots over that garbage any day, since at least then, I die quickly without some HAMSTER wasting the very little game time I am mentally able to give this train wreck of a game.

Off topic section:
It is commendable, that people still bother with trying to get them to make this game good again, but as long as it remains a f2p game, with a pay for power business model, the battle can't be won.
There will be flavor of the month classes.
There will be lots and lots of low geared players, either looking for a good low geared match, or just farming AD.
There will be one shots.
There will be lots and lots of bugs.

Lastly, do you think the mods actually forward these posts to the devs?
How many times have devs shown up on the forums, for rework purposes, only to tell us that they had no idea about a LONG list if bugs, known to the players and posted on the forums several times for several months?

ltgamesttv

Let me explain, no is too long, let me sum up. One shots should not exist in any game ever imho.

If the devs listen or not, if these forum posts are forwarded or not, if because the game is f2p or not I will still come here and write posts that I think are pertinent to making the game better.

Thanks for your reply.