Utility slots giving points is kind-of irrelevant. Just ignore that issue - it's not a big deal.
The big deal is bonding runestones on summoned pets not giving anything close to what they should do. They make a huge difference and their IL contribution needs to be boosted somehow
Although I agree, I don't think it's as big of an issue as people are making it out to be. In my opinion, it's OK if ilvl is only kind-of accurate in measuring power, it doesn't need to take into account all of the nuances experienced players understand.
To be frank, I think that developer time would be better spent on addressing bugs, bringing more QoL features into the game, expanding new/existing features (especially loadouts to include enchants, mounts, companions, and arti powers), and developing new content.
The system as proposed is a dramatic improvement over what we have now, and will be good enough for the purpose it needs to serve (ilvl gating for fresh lvl 70s).
I just skimmed through most of this thread, can't say I've seen anyone point this out yet though. This kind of feels like a measure against players who rushed an alt to 70 while skipping content, from transferring their Rank 10+ enchants to the fresh 70 in order to start running dungeons with friends. This seems like it would force players to purchase campaigns from the zen market in order to be able to meet ilevel requirements for dungeons. As an example, I have an OP at 66 and plan to hit 70 next weekend during double XP. I have Dragonflight, Twisted Weapon set, Jarls Gaze, the mantel derith shirt and pants, the Life silk spinneret,+5 Underdark rings (which is the reason I even made a tank as I have so many +5 defensive stat rings I can't use on my GWF) waiting for him to hit 70. I do plan on grinding the campaigns eventually, however after grinding to 70 and finding that I still can't join my friends in my new 70 until I either purchase campaign completions from the zen store or return to grinding away at campaigns to meet the ilevel requirement to get into dungeons. It's not really a matter of stats, as I can transfer my R12 bondings to my alt, and gear him out with R7 enchants thanks to the trade bar store. I know the class very well, and I can run this support class to fill the void when my friends need a tank on the fly, but because I don't have my companions leveled up, mounts, insignias, boons ect. I'll be barred from content I would have been able to run under the old system.
Just a thought. This might not effect me as the ilevel from the gear I described may be enough to get me in, but for other players who did not prepare their new 70 with gear ready to go might find that the grind to join their friends isn't over. It's now spend money or keep grinding campaigns that are often time gated. Something to think about.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Nick, you could have been working on Sharandar while levelling. I got 4 Shar boons on my latest alt while levelling him from 64 to 70, and he could get the final one with a reservoir run today, having hit 70 on Thursday or Friday. You can even technically buy the first 2 Shar boons by trading in bounty items, if you've allowed those to pile up at all.
You can start ToD at level 26. I've got the first 5 ToD boons on the same alt, as well as another that's only 58. This doesn't represent a large time sink as much of it was earned by making sure I killed one lowbie dragon per week even if I did absolutely nothing else. But before 60, Common Cause takes maybe 10 minutes per day since you don't need to wait for a dragon if it's not convenient.
I suppose it does mean that if you've powerlevelled a character and not gradually worked on stuff, you're not in the same position as a player who has put in that time, and you're left with the alternative to buy your way past it or stop and do the work. I don't think this is unfair. As has been mentioned, in many cases, characters barely scraping by for access to queued content are not actually strong enough to be effective in that content, and the system can't really account for some of those characters being controlled by exceptional players.
It also assumes the player doesn't have an assortment of account-unlocked mounts to draw on, as if you do, filling these out with cheap insignias just to get some bonuses functioning is nothing (effectively free if you bothered looting nodes in your travels). I'd also say that while companions that help with DPS tend to be costly, epic companions with bonuses that help with survivability are fairly inexpensive and probably worth looking into for the fresh 70... things like Medic, Angel, Lillend, for example. Energon for a tank is almost a must, and doesn't need to be upgraded.
Thanks for all the feedback. Most of the questions that have come up have been answered by others in the thread (which is always awesome to see) but let me cover some of the high points and hopefully add a bit of extra clarification, or at least make things more "official".
In terms of accuracy, there have been lots of great suggestions that would make the system more accurate, but as others have pointed out, the goal isn't to maximize accuracy so much as to make things more accurate than before (and hopefully "accurate enough") and still preserve simplicity. One thing that's important to simplicity is, I think, that each item gives a fixed number -- not contextual numbers. I also don't want to go down the path of saying specific item X or Y is more powerful, so we will give it more item level. I think it's better if we keep things by category (purple enchantment is worth X, blue artifact is worth Y), and if we keep the number of different categories low.
All that said, let me discuss a few categories that have come up a lot: * Insignias: the reason the numbers are so close is that most of the iLevel is coming from the (implied) insignia bonus. A full set of greens that gives a bonus is worth only a bit less than a full set of purples that gives that same bonus, even though the purple insignia stats themselves are worth a bunch more than the green stats. I hope that makes sense. (I think maybe beckylunatic explained this better!) * Bondings, utilities, etc: all very true in terms of actual power levels, but I think in the grand scheme of things it will be fine. The way it is now keeps it simple, and in practice a given person's enchantments and runestones are not wildly off from each other (or, if they are, it's in a way that's consistent across players, like most players investing more in offensive enchants than in utilities). * Mounts: my apologies, I shouldn't have written "Mount Actives" and "Mount Passives" (our internal names). As someone pointed out, these are your mount Combat Power (if you are so lucky!) and mount Equip Power. You don't get any item level from your stable mounts themselves. You just get item level from the Combat Power, Equip Power, and all the insignia. * Companions: preview shard doesn't match the above values -- thanks, good catch. The preview shard values were old placeholder values that shouldn't have gotten pushed out. What's on the chart above is correct.
A few other issues: * PvP doesn't "read" item level, so there's no need for a separate PvP item level. Of course, if we ever did start caring about item level for PvP, we'd have to make some adjustments -- just not counting any of the companion-related stuff might be enough. In any case, not a problem for now. * "Guild boons don't count": let me try again since it wasn't 100% clear the first time. Guild boons count just like anything else towards computing your total item level. The only thing different was that when I computed the requirements for queues, I ignored the guild boons on the sample characters I had. In other words, if a player was 2,000 iLevel in the old system, and 8,600 in the new system (including guild boons), and 7,600 in the new system (without guild boons), I pretended that player was 7,600 when I made up the new queue requirements. So (if all 2,000 iLevel players looked like that) I'd set the old 2,000 queues to 7,600. But the specific player in this example would log on and discover their new item level was 8,600. They'd be well above the 7,600 requirement on the queue. That's all. Once the system goes live, guild boons work just like anything else. It was a temporary trick in computing the new queue requirements. * Private queues not having requirements: this is something I've thought about. I don't like no requirements at all (for various reasons, some mentioned in this thread). But I would like to have lower requirements for private queues than for public ones. That might mean raising some of the public queue numbers. The idea would be to make it so that if a bunch of more or less random people all met the public requirement, and they all got thrown in together, they'd have a good experience (right now a random bunch of 2,000-ish players would have a pretty terrible time in a 2,000 dungeon). Meanwhile, if a bunch of highly skilled people decided to challenge themselves by private queuing and they just barely met the (lower) private queue requirements, they'd have a tough time, but it would be possible. So (totally making up some numbers, please don't hold me to this!) with an existing 2,000 queue maybe public is 2,500 (those queues are way off) and private is 1,900 (or even 2,000). With Fangbreaker at 3,100, maybe public is 3,400 and private is 2,800 (the more recent queues seem closer to a reasonable public number). I'd love to do this change for several reasons (the two main ones being challenging players who want to be challenged, and reducing hate for newbies in public queues). But it's not coming this release, alas.
Thanks again for everyone's help!
P.S. Actually, raising Fangbreaker to 3,400 might be too harsh just because those gear score numbers are hard to get to. In the new system it might be easier (pick up a few more boons and insignia) or maybe not so much. So definitely more thought would be needed to pick the right numbers. Again, what's here is just an example to illustrate the idea. If we ever did something like this, we'd almost certainly need to put it on playtest and ask for feedback to help us set the right numbers.
All good. I would suggest adding a temporary (buffed) item level number that includes temporary pots, such as IL 12,000 (14,000) for example. Since a player can stack buffs equivalent to up to 38 extra hybrid Rank 12 enchantments worth of stat. Huge.
Nick, you could have been working on Sharandar while levelling. I got 4 Shar boons on my latest alt while levelling him from 64 to 70, and he could get the final one with a reservoir run today, having hit 70 on Thursday or Friday. You can even technically buy the first 2 Shar boons by trading in bounty items, if you've allowed those to pile up at all.
You can start ToD at level 26. I've got the first 5 ToD boons on the same alt, as well as another that's only 58. This doesn't represent a large time sink as much of it was earned by making sure I killed one lowbie dragon per week even if I did absolutely nothing else. But before 60, Common Cause takes maybe 10 minutes per day since you don't need to wait for a dragon if it's not convenient.
I suppose it does mean that if you've powerlevelled a character and not gradually worked on stuff, you're not in the same position as a player who has put in that time, and you're left with the alternative to buy your way past it or stop and do the work. I don't think this is unfair. As has been mentioned, in many cases, characters barely scraping by for access to queued content are not actually strong enough to be effective in that content, and the system can't really account for some of those characters being controlled by exceptional players.
It also assumes the player doesn't have an assortment of account-unlocked mounts to draw on, as if you do, filling these out with cheap insignias just to get some bonuses functioning is nothing (effectively free if you bothered looting nodes in your travels). I'd also say that while companions that help with DPS tend to be costly, epic companions with bonuses that help with survivability are fairly inexpensive and probably worth looking into for the fresh 70... things like Medic, Angel, Lillend, for example. Energon for a tank is almost a must, and doesn't need to be upgraded.
I've got a few alts I've managed to level up just through the invoking system. Took me quite a while to do. I have a few level 70 characters that I played through all the content with, some sitting at 4K. A friend mentioned to me I should be invoking everyday on my alts even if I don't play them. Having noticed that my OP was now in the 60s and double xp coming up I wanted to finish the last few levels and gear him up. I'm sitting on so many companions and artifacts and gear that I thought I could probably hit 2700-3000 ilevel soon as it hits 70, I'll go back and actually get the boons later. We could always use an extra tank in our group when doing salvage runs allowing others to switch to a dps. I know of a very good OP build I helped create after the OP nerf/changes last mod. I'm not worried about the grind really, if I really enjoy playing an alt I put the time in. It would be a shame though if I hit 70 and a new ilevel system kept me barred from dungeons because I lack the campaign boons. It is what it is though. No big deal.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
This latest TR of mine levelled to 60 through passive XP gain (only 1 daily invoke plus Leadership XP) and however much ToD I felt like doing. I got him to 64 on the 2xXP before the upcoming one by starting EE, plus Wayfarer boosters from Vanguard Pack codes, but haven't touched it since. The EE intro quests were good for about a level apiece.
He's around 2k with Drow/Dusk gear and rank 7s. I should probably copy him over and see where he sits on the new curve.
I'd say if you think you want an infrequently touched alt to be a bit more viable, make sure you get that weekly dragon even if they never leave PE for anything else. ToD boons are cake. You don't even technically need to unlock the entire campaign, though I'd recommend doing so eventually for the Portal instance.
In what way does legendary companions make a player stronger? Sure the summoned gives 15% more stats, but having additional four legendary companions gives you nothing, so why should you get increased Itemlevel?
I actually think that the problem with this is more about the legendary rank on the companions rather than the new IL points for them. Upgrading passive companions should give something.
* Bondings, utilities, etc: all very true in terms of actual power levels, but I think in the grand scheme of things it will be fine. The way it is now keeps it simple, and in practice a given person's enchantments and runestones are not wildly off from each other (or, if they are, it's in a way that's consistent across players, like most players investing more in offensive enchants than in utilities).
Bondings really need to get adjusted. The current itemlvl is not high enough. Someone with 3x bondings and someone with 3x other R12 on companions, are two totally differente cases regarding damage, survivability. Roughly 200 ilvl for 3x R12 Bonnding isn't enough. A well geared companion with 3x R12 Bondings give up to 30k stats. 3 different R12 enchants with the same ilvl give 2.1k stats. Bondings are the most important enchantment in PvE.
Nero - Palacetamol - Essence of Aggression
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frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
* Bondings, utilities, etc: all very true in terms of actual power levels, but I think in the grand scheme of things it will be fine. The way it is now keeps it simple, and in practice a given person's enchantments and runestones are not wildly off from each other (or, if they are, it's in a way that's consistent across players, like most players investing more in offensive enchants than in utilities).
Bondings really need to get adjusted. The current itemlvl is not high enough. Someone with 3x bondings and someone with 3x other R12 on companions, are two totally differente cases regarding damage, survivability. Roughly 200 ilvl for 3x R12 Bonnding isn't enough. A well geared companion with 3x R12 Bondings give up to 30k stats. 3 different R12 enchants with the same ilvl give 2.1k stats. Bondings are the most important enchantment in PvE.
It complicates things quite a bit, just leave it be. You anyway can't know what a person's IL source is to figure out whether or not they're actually using bondings and the like. Just do what you do now if you want to play only with those who have bondings.
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frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
edited April 2017
Yea, @rgutscheradev, please get rid of extra IL from additional legendary companions. That's the only thing I see that serves absolutely no purpose. If you must give them bonus IL, give a bonus upgrade to them, just like when upgrading from rare to epic.
Meh to giving IL to pots. All those ain't simple tasks and... just no
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited April 2017
@rgutscheradev you can write and rewrite all of that and you will not convince me bonding s IL is alright, I've taken a look into utility although it's not perfect it keeps it simple like you said it, insignias same thing, companions...i will wait for update. About a bonding s nerf i am not against it and i would like companions really being useful (apart from only some and all others being chosen simply to proc bonding's) but many players have manifested their discontent with a nerf to bonding's so i think that at least for now the IL withing the companion should be multiplied by the bonding's share % (The max IL a companion can have will be around 2000, while an augment will transmit it directly the stats 3 bonding's R12 will transmit 95*3 = 285%, the power within bonding's will affect companion abilities ).
About IL display, the inspect button shouldn't display the IL accounting guild boons IL because it will lead to filtered selection. People completely judge others by their IL, so players will be preferred with higher IL if that IL comes from guild.
About IL raise for queue, after the changes the chance of finalizing a dungeon should be quite increased for low requirement dungeons because players will seek the things they are missing, understanding them better and use them, about higher IL requirement dungeons i agree with a raise but that will represent a very bad problem, the lack of players queuing, i am talking of 2 hours long wait to get in FBI if i queue solo as a dps, so a raise in that requirement would make it even worse.
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frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
edited April 2017
It's just IL... what's the big issue? I fail to see why that's being stressed on so much. Just do what you're doing now. Atleast there the stuff on companion's stuff are being considered. Now even that's not happening, but we're still able to gauge performance a fair bit. Adding a couple hundred points to it won't make much of a difference. You won't know that's where its coming from, and even if they do have it, they might just be built wrong and useless.
I really don't understand why people want the devs to spend time building in a multiplier for bondings or some of the other complicated changes. I literally think that there must be feature requests / bug fixes that all of you should prefer over more dev time investment in the ilvl system.
I think it was especially silly that many of the people advocating some of the convoluted calculations have admitted to having ilvl well above the highest requirements. Why does it matter? Once you are above 3.2k ish, ilvl serves no real purpose. All of us know it's a poor indicator of player effectiveness, because it doesn't account for build / experience / skill / knowledge of mechanics. And no amount of convoluted calculation will change that.
@rgutscheradev thank you for the explanation. I think that the system is great with your proposed changes. Thanks for clarifying about companion ilvl values.
One last thing I forgot to check is whether you've squashed the following minor bug. This isn't completely irrelevant because this was one of the cheapest acct-unlock mounts for a long time, and it has solid insignia slots (gladiator's guile or Assassin's Covenant) so many players have and use it: BUG: Mount passive power "Fast Striding" (from Stormraider Clydesdale) doesn't contribute to ilvl
I'll re-test tonight if I have a moment.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
Bondings represent 3700 IL over the 100% (this considering full r12 enchantments). Some player so far had R12's slotted in the character instead companion for IL raise reason, now that the IL will be based on both sides those players will much likely swap those bondings to the active companion since they wont be loosing IL, so we will see people running with 13k IL and a hidden 3700+ from bondings, that is 28% of IL hidden that will be complemented by companion specific abilities(heal/damage/debuff/aggro), utility slots was something like 410, making this system without addressing this issue will give a much worse representation of the IL, that i know cannot be perfect but 28% or even more as some people pass bondings/enchants over it's not a thing to just let pass.
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frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
Bondings represent 3700 IL over the 100% (this considering full r12 enchantments). Some player so far had R12's slotted in the character instead companion for IL raise reason, now that the IL will be based on both sides those players will much likely swap those bondings to the active companion since they wont be loosing IL, so we will see people running with 13k IL and a hidden 3700+ from bondings, that is 28% of IL hidden that will be complemented by companion specific abilities(heal/damage/debuff/aggro), utility slots was something like 410, making this system without addressing this issue will give a much worse representation of the IL, that i know cannot be perfect but 28% or even more as some people pass bondings/enchants over it's not a thing to just let pass.
What we mean is, it does not matter. IL ≠ Stats. You must gauge a player's actual performance based on how he is doing. IL is there just to make a quick initial assessment. And, I say what we have now on preview does a pretty decent job at that. And, don't penalise people by lowering their rating just cause they didn't wanna or couldn't afford by lowering their scores. I know quite a few who prefer augments in most cases and do a perfectly fine job.
And again, IL ≠ Stats.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
What we mean is, it does not matter. IL ≠ Stats. You must gauge a player's actual performance based on how he is doing. IL is there just to make a quick initial assessment. And, I say what we have now on preview does a pretty decent job at that. And, don't penalise people by lowering their rating just cause they didn't wanna or couldn't afford by lowering their scores. I know quite a few who prefer augments in most cases and do a perfectly fine job.
And again, IL ≠ Stats.
Is it really? Go to preview, grab a piece of equipment, artifact, etc, divide the stats by the IL they award. Did you notice a high difference between twisted set/new weapons? Weapon damage the one of the most important things in the game not being taken in consideration?
And a player with 3 expensive bondings is not doing well? I mean cmon, they aren't properlly 2 silver from the seven suns coaster market. Yes, it's a pretty decent job for everything except this. If you mean doing well by real in dungeon performance, i suggested this before and i think it would be the best way to attribute a IL to a player -> trials, each time more and more dificult to test the player in his/hers specialty, now that would really make sure only competent people would run x or y content, and i am sure the best ones would carry bondings because with the difficulty increase they would eventually fail.
I think you are all disagree with me because you associated treesclimber+bondings opinion = trash so you react negatively no matter what, while the truth is stats are being taken a lot in consideration because they need to, not giving bondings the multiplier is the same thing as taking a player with only 1 artifact mythic, no rings, no pants or shirt but with bondings instead of a player with those but with an augment, would you pick the first over the second if both where put to your disposition but you didn't know the companion that player has?
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
I should probably copy him over and see where he sits on the new curve.
@nickjdowe I did copy this character to preview to check his adjusted item level, and it's at 6,929 (7,600 needed to queue for former 2k content). I'm actually missing a boon as there seems to be a copying bug removing a couple of days worth of progress, but areas for immediate improvement include that I could gain 120 plus enchant slots by getting Drow pants and shirt (have been using Inscribed). Weapons are Mulhorands, neck and waist are only green. Three purple artifacts and one green. Rings are junk and I have an open enchant slot in his belt. Refining some things would definitely bring it up some, probably to that borderline stage of, "I technically can queue, but unless my party has a relationship of trust with me, I really should not queue". I suspect a twink with better equipment and fewer boons will be in about the same place.
What we mean is, it does not matter. IL ≠ Stats. You must gauge a player's actual performance based on how he is doing. IL is there just to make a quick initial assessment. And, I say what we have now on preview does a pretty decent job at that. And, don't penalise people by lowering their rating just cause they didn't wanna or couldn't afford by lowering their scores. I know quite a few who prefer augments in most cases and do a perfectly fine job.
And again, IL ≠ Stats.
Is it really? Go to preview, grab a piece of equipment, artifact, etc, divide the stats by the IL they award. Did you notice a high difference between twisted set/new weapons? Weapon damage the one of the most important things in the game not being taken in consideration?
And a player with 3 expensive bondings is not doing well? I mean cmon, they aren't properlly 2 silver from the seven suns coaster market. Yes, it's a pretty decent job for everything except this. If you mean doing well by real in dungeon performance, i suggested this before and i think it would be the best way to attribute a IL to a player -> trials, each time more and more dificult to test the player in his/hers specialty, now that would really make sure only competent people would run x or y content, and i am sure the best ones would carry bondings because with the difficulty increase they would eventually fail.
I think you are all disagree with me because you associated treesclimber+bondings opinion = trash so you react negatively no matter what, while the truth is stats are being taken a lot in consideration because they need to, not giving bondings the multiplier is the same thing as taking a player with only 1 artifact mythic, no rings, no pants or shirt but with bondings instead of a player with those but with an augment, would you pick the first over the second if both where put to your disposition but you didn't know the companion that player has?
You joined in after I was disagreeing. Never take stuff personally in forums.
How can you possibly know whether bondings are giving that IL or maybe insignia?
What if the player is PvP specced and has bondings and all? Will he still do well?
The stuff you're asking for is like having a separate character page saying that the person used bondings, uses these buffs and debuffs, has these insignia bonuses, companion bonuses, etc... And that's not how stuff's supposed to happen no matter how important those things are.
@beckylunatic that's exactly what I was afraid of. Generally when I have a fresh 70, I have a few pieces of DF waiting for him. In this case I have some really solid gear ready to go. +5 rings, under dark shirt/pants, 2x DF gear, twisted weapons, enough artifacts to make a few legendary and so on. I'd like to get in there and run some dungeons right away once I hit 70, then go back and do some campaigns. I'll probably genies gift through a few. But I have this feeling like this scenario was put in place to catch people like me, who hit 70 and have the gear, to be forced to spend money to get the boons in order to run dungeons. Call it a speed bump. I'm not upset about it. I just don't see the need for a big ilevel change in game unless there was a money grab attached. Time spent developing this new system has to be justified by an increase in game revenue or what would be the point.. QoL? I'm not calling for a witch hunt, just an observation.
@beckylunatic that's exactly what I was afraid of. Generally when I have a fresh 70, I have a few pieces of DF waiting for him. In this case I have some really solid gear ready to go. +5 rings, under dark shirt/pants, 2x DF gear, twisted weapons, enough artifacts to make a few legendary and so on. I'd like to get in there and run some dungeons right away once I hit 70, then go back and do some campaigns. I'll probably genies gift through a few. But I have this feeling like this scenario was put in place to catch people like me, who hit 70 and have the gear, to be forced to spend money to get the boons in order to run dungeons. Call it a speed bump. I'm not upset about it. I just don't see the need for a big ilevel change in game unless there was a money grab attached. Time spent developing this new system has to be justified by an increase in game revenue or what would be the point.. QoL? I'm not calling for a witch hunt, just an observation.
Nick have you tried the preview to see your new IL ? from what you said youre pretty whell equipped i would like to know you IL after the changes just to have a insight... (if youre already 70 i mean)
obs.: Im asking because i can't do it (i'm a bit weird and i dont like to skip content, to the point that i usually skip the 2xXP weekends wille leveling toons and don't join the guild before Lv 60 to avoid overpower the levels ) but many of my guild mates may face the same challenge as you so would be nice to know
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
that's exactly what I was afraid of. Generally when I have a fresh 70, I have a few pieces of DF waiting for him. In this case I have some really solid gear ready to go. +5 rings, under dark shirt/pants, 2x DF gear, twisted weapons, enough artifacts to make a few legendary and so on. I'd like to get in there and run some dungeons right away once I hit 70, then go back and do some campaigns. I'll probably genies gift through a few. But I have this feeling like this scenario was put in place to catch people like me, who hit 70 and have the gear, to be forced to spend money to get the boons in order to run dungeons. Call it a speed bump. I'm not upset about it. I just don't see the need for a big ilevel change in game unless there was a money grab attached. Time spent developing this new system has to be justified by an increase in game revenue or what would be the point.. QoL? I'm not calling for a witch hunt, just an observation.
QoL is the stated general idea. You're an outlier player, in the respect that you can take your fresh 70 into content they can just barely access and expect to succeed at it. Most people can't, and the game does currently have a problem whereby a pug group queueing for much of the content, assuming most of them are just making the requirements, is liable to have a miserable time and fail.
I also think that if you get that OP to 70 and equip all your stuff (including if you can 2xRP some items to stash in the bank until then), you are likely to find yourself at that borderline stage where you *can* get in. The better enchants you have available, and the more willing you are to throw on a couple of meh-ish epic companions just for the bump, the more likely you are to be able to run everything but the current 3k+ queues, and possibly EDemo. You have dual-slotted rings.
My TR is also missing his guild boons on preview (unimpressive though my available ones may be!). So you can add those in. It also just occurred to me that I had literally nothing at all equipped on his summoned companion, not so much as a Training runestone.
I think you're going to find yourself in better shape than you fear.
But, if all else fails, the first two boons in Sharandar and the entire chain of Dread Ring can be Genie's Gift-ed, and the quest instances to access them are brief. Non-Linu ToD likely can be bought out but with a fairly high cost attached (you need a lot of Lore pages). IWD can progress at decent pace by doing the daily reputation quests and using Gifts for the other items. I'd keep an eye on the calendar to see if they bring back some of the 2xCampaign Currency events they started running, as these are an enormous boost for powering through the old campaigns. I'd say we're due for them.
What we mean is, it does not matter. IL ≠ Stats. You must gauge a player's actual performance based on how he is doing. IL is there just to make a quick initial assessment. And, I say what we have now on preview does a pretty decent job at that. And, don't penalise people by lowering their rating just cause they didn't wanna or couldn't afford by lowering their scores. I know quite a few who prefer augments in most cases and do a perfectly fine job.
And again, IL ≠ Stats.
Is it really? Go to preview, grab a piece of equipment, artifact, etc, divide the stats by the IL they award. Did you notice a high difference between twisted set/new weapons? Weapon damage the one of the most important things in the game not being taken in consideration?
And a player with 3 expensive bondings is not doing well? I mean cmon, they aren't properlly 2 silver from the seven suns coaster market. Yes, it's a pretty decent job for everything except this. If you mean doing well by real in dungeon performance, i suggested this before and i think it would be the best way to attribute a IL to a player -> trials, each time more and more dificult to test the player in his/hers specialty, now that would really make sure only competent people would run x or y content, and i am sure the best ones would carry bondings because with the difficulty increase they would eventually fail.
I think you are all disagree with me because you associated treesclimber+bondings opinion = trash so you react negatively no matter what, while the truth is stats are being taken a lot in consideration because they need to, not giving bondings the multiplier is the same thing as taking a player with only 1 artifact mythic, no rings, no pants or shirt but with bondings instead of a player with those but with an augment, would you pick the first over the second if both where put to your disposition but you didn't know the companion that player has?
You joined in after I was disagreeing. Never take stuff personally in forums.
How can you possibly know whether bondings are giving that IL or maybe insignia?
What if the player is PvP specced and has bondings and all? Will he still do well?
The stuff you're asking for is like having a separate character page saying that the person used bondings, uses these buffs and debuffs, has these insignia bonuses, companion bonuses, etc... And that's not how stuff's supposed to happen no matter how important those things are.
Let me clear this out, what i am saying is give bondings the multiplier because they give much more stats than a augment companion or any other runestone.
And of course you can't know where the IL is coming from, but you dont need to, you just need to look directly to IL and compare it, because cryptic team made it such way, if you have a legendary mount you can expect it to influence you the same as 3 insignias + bonus, this is not accurate and can't ever be, but is the best.
PVE and pvp builds cannot be compared, that would be far, far too complex, there are builds better for this or that situation, sets, enchantments, what i am talking about is simple math: You have more stats, IL is mainly based on stats (and it is, you can't deny) so you get more IL, the end.
Let me clear this out, what i am saying is give bondings the multiplier because they give much more stats than a augment companion or any other runestone.
This is a reason for Bondings to be balanced somehow or giving other stuff (like augments) some kind of buff (and maybe extra iL). A single no brainer choice (aka bondings) = 0 build variety in a game. The current state of the game is: Get bondings, roflstomp content, rinse and repeat. It also means ppl who can't afford them get left out of content, which is also not healthy for the game.
Giving more iL to them will just inflate the problem even more.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited April 2017
@rgutscheradev can you please consider a review on weapon enchantments and armour? These are much superior to any other kind of enchantments and are given the same, IL, for example suposing the feytouched was WAI, it would be something around 16 to 18% more damage + weapon damage based damage, so around 5 to 7% and still the debuff on target, this is far, far superior to any regular enchantment and i think that a change would be really important.
All this talk of bonding, I've read threads that a lot of people do great damage with out them. Some just mix and match better than others.
You need to define "great damage". Compared to someone with 3x Bondings R12 I doubt it will be great damage and this is exactly the point. A player with 3x Bondings plays in a different dimension then someone who doesn't have Bondings and this is what ilvl should show imo. It should be an indicator of how "strong" a player is. Someone without Bondings will never be able to compare to someone with Bondings.
According to posts way before, *roughly* - 3100 would be now +/- 10,600 like so 3200 would be +/- 10600. Are these numbers already count with campaigns' boons? Will they affect iL 2.0 ? (I hope that having 4 campaigns finished, and all dug into some point WILL make a difference.)
According to posts way before, *roughly* - 3100 would be now +/- 10,600 like so 3200 would be +/- 10600. Are these numbers already count with campaigns' boons? Will they affect iL 2.0 ? (I hope that having 4 campaigns finished, and all dug into some point WILL make a difference.)
I have a 3,250 item level toon on live, when transferred over to preview, he is about 11,500 item level (without any guild boons). The conversions in the table are only the requirement changes for dungeons based on the newly improved item level system. Your item level could be wildly different from the estimated value based on how much you have (or don't have) that is now counted into the system.
For example: I have a 2,100 toon on live that is 6,300 on preview. This is because he has no boons, no companions, and almost no insignias. I have a 2,000 toon on live that is 6,800 on preview. This is because he has several boons, no companion, but all green insignias
Note that all of these were without guild boons, which do give item level.
Comments
To be frank, I think that developer time would be better spent on addressing bugs, bringing more QoL features into the game, expanding new/existing features (especially loadouts to include enchants, mounts, companions, and arti powers), and developing new content.
The system as proposed is a dramatic improvement over what we have now, and will be good enough for the purpose it needs to serve (ilvl gating for fresh lvl 70s).
Just a thought. This might not effect me as the ilevel from the gear I described may be enough to get me in, but for other players who did not prepare their new 70 with gear ready to go might find that the grind to join their friends isn't over. It's now spend money or keep grinding campaigns that are often time gated. Something to think about.
You can start ToD at level 26. I've got the first 5 ToD boons on the same alt, as well as another that's only 58. This doesn't represent a large time sink as much of it was earned by making sure I killed one lowbie dragon per week even if I did absolutely nothing else. But before 60, Common Cause takes maybe 10 minutes per day since you don't need to wait for a dragon if it's not convenient.
I suppose it does mean that if you've powerlevelled a character and not gradually worked on stuff, you're not in the same position as a player who has put in that time, and you're left with the alternative to buy your way past it or stop and do the work. I don't think this is unfair. As has been mentioned, in many cases, characters barely scraping by for access to queued content are not actually strong enough to be effective in that content, and the system can't really account for some of those characters being controlled by exceptional players.
It also assumes the player doesn't have an assortment of account-unlocked mounts to draw on, as if you do, filling these out with cheap insignias just to get some bonuses functioning is nothing (effectively free if you bothered looting nodes in your travels). I'd also say that while companions that help with DPS tend to be costly, epic companions with bonuses that help with survivability are fairly inexpensive and probably worth looking into for the fresh 70... things like Medic, Angel, Lillend, for example. Energon for a tank is almost a must, and doesn't need to be upgraded.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Thanks for all the feedback. Most of the questions that have come up have been answered by others in the thread (which is always awesome to see) but let me cover some of the high points and hopefully add a bit of extra clarification, or at least make things more "official".
In terms of accuracy, there have been lots of great suggestions that would make the system more accurate, but as others have pointed out, the goal isn't to maximize accuracy so much as to make things more accurate than before (and hopefully "accurate enough") and still preserve simplicity. One thing that's important to simplicity is, I think, that each item gives a fixed number -- not contextual numbers. I also don't want to go down the path of saying specific item X or Y is more powerful, so we will give it more item level. I think it's better if we keep things by category (purple enchantment is worth X, blue artifact is worth Y), and if we keep the number of different categories low.
All that said, let me discuss a few categories that have come up a lot:
* Insignias: the reason the numbers are so close is that most of the iLevel is coming from the (implied) insignia bonus. A full set of greens that gives a bonus is worth only a bit less than a full set of purples that gives that same bonus, even though the purple insignia stats themselves are worth a bunch more than the green stats. I hope that makes sense. (I think maybe beckylunatic explained this better!)
* Bondings, utilities, etc: all very true in terms of actual power levels, but I think in the grand scheme of things it will be fine. The way it is now keeps it simple, and in practice a given person's enchantments and runestones are not wildly off from each other (or, if they are, it's in a way that's consistent across players, like most players investing more in offensive enchants than in utilities).
* Mounts: my apologies, I shouldn't have written "Mount Actives" and "Mount Passives" (our internal names). As someone pointed out, these are your mount Combat Power (if you are so lucky!) and mount Equip Power. You don't get any item level from your stable mounts themselves. You just get item level from the Combat Power, Equip Power, and all the insignia.
* Companions: preview shard doesn't match the above values -- thanks, good catch. The preview shard values were old placeholder values that shouldn't have gotten pushed out. What's on the chart above is correct.
A few other issues:
* PvP doesn't "read" item level, so there's no need for a separate PvP item level. Of course, if we ever did start caring about item level for PvP, we'd have to make some adjustments -- just not counting any of the companion-related stuff might be enough. In any case, not a problem for now.
* "Guild boons don't count": let me try again since it wasn't 100% clear the first time. Guild boons count just like anything else towards computing your total item level. The only thing different was that when I computed the requirements for queues, I ignored the guild boons on the sample characters I had. In other words, if a player was 2,000 iLevel in the old system, and 8,600 in the new system (including guild boons), and 7,600 in the new system (without guild boons), I pretended that player was 7,600 when I made up the new queue requirements. So (if all 2,000 iLevel players looked like that) I'd set the old 2,000 queues to 7,600. But the specific player in this example would log on and discover their new item level was 8,600. They'd be well above the 7,600 requirement on the queue. That's all. Once the system goes live, guild boons work just like anything else. It was a temporary trick in computing the new queue requirements.
* Private queues not having requirements: this is something I've thought about. I don't like no requirements at all (for various reasons, some mentioned in this thread). But I would like to have lower requirements for private queues than for public ones. That might mean raising some of the public queue numbers. The idea would be to make it so that if a bunch of more or less random people all met the public requirement, and they all got thrown in together, they'd have a good experience (right now a random bunch of 2,000-ish players would have a pretty terrible time in a 2,000 dungeon). Meanwhile, if a bunch of highly skilled people decided to challenge themselves by private queuing and they just barely met the (lower) private queue requirements, they'd have a tough time, but it would be possible. So (totally making up some numbers, please don't hold me to this!) with an existing 2,000 queue maybe public is 2,500 (those queues are way off) and private is 1,900 (or even 2,000). With Fangbreaker at 3,100, maybe public is 3,400 and private is 2,800 (the more recent queues seem closer to a reasonable public number). I'd love to do this change for several reasons (the two main ones being challenging players who want to be challenged, and reducing hate for newbies in public queues). But it's not coming this release, alas.
Thanks again for everyone's help!
P.S. Actually, raising Fangbreaker to 3,400 might be too harsh just because those gear score numbers are hard to get to. In the new system it might be easier (pick up a few more boons and insignia) or maybe not so much. So definitely more thought would be needed to pick the right numbers. Again, what's here is just an example to illustrate the idea. If we ever did something like this, we'd almost certainly need to put it on playtest and ask for feedback to help us set the right numbers.
All good. I would suggest adding a temporary (buffed) item level number that includes temporary pots, such as IL 12,000 (14,000) for example. Since a player can stack buffs equivalent to up to 38 extra hybrid Rank 12 enchantments worth of stat. Huge.
http://i.imgur.com/VdpD8lM.png
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
He's around 2k with Drow/Dusk gear and rank 7s. I should probably copy him over and see where he sits on the new curve.
I'd say if you think you want an infrequently touched alt to be a bit more viable, make sure you get that weekly dragon even if they never leave PE for anything else. ToD boons are cake. You don't even technically need to unlock the entire campaign, though I'd recommend doing so eventually for the Portal instance.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
In what way does legendary companions make a player stronger? Sure the summoned gives 15% more stats, but having additional four legendary companions gives you nothing, so why should you get increased Itemlevel?
I actually think that the problem with this is more about the legendary rank on the companions rather than the new IL points for them. Upgrading passive companions should give something.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Meh to giving IL to pots. All those ain't simple tasks and... just no
About IL display, the inspect button shouldn't display the IL accounting guild boons IL because it will lead to filtered selection. People completely judge others by their IL, so players will be preferred with higher IL if that IL comes from guild.
About IL raise for queue, after the changes the chance of finalizing a dungeon should be quite increased for low requirement dungeons because players will seek the things they are missing, understanding them better and use them, about higher IL requirement dungeons i agree with a raise but that will represent a very bad problem, the lack of players queuing, i am talking of 2 hours long wait to get in FBI if i queue solo as a dps, so a raise in that requirement would make it even worse.
I think it was especially silly that many of the people advocating some of the convoluted calculations have admitted to having ilvl well above the highest requirements. Why does it matter? Once you are above 3.2k ish, ilvl serves no real purpose. All of us know it's a poor indicator of player effectiveness, because it doesn't account for build / experience / skill / knowledge of mechanics. And no amount of convoluted calculation will change that.
@rgutscheradev thank you for the explanation. I think that the system is great with your proposed changes. Thanks for clarifying about companion ilvl values.
One last thing I forgot to check is whether you've squashed the following minor bug. This isn't completely irrelevant because this was one of the cheapest acct-unlock mounts for a long time, and it has solid insignia slots (gladiator's guile or Assassin's Covenant) so many players have and use it:
BUG: Mount passive power "Fast Striding" (from Stormraider Clydesdale) doesn't contribute to ilvl
I'll re-test tonight if I have a moment.
And again, IL ≠ Stats.
And a player with 3 expensive bondings is not doing well? I mean cmon, they aren't properlly 2 silver from the seven suns coaster market. Yes, it's a pretty decent job for everything except this. If you mean doing well by real in dungeon performance, i suggested this before and i think it would be the best way to attribute a IL to a player -> trials, each time more and more dificult to test the player in his/hers specialty, now that would really make sure only competent people would run x or y content, and i am sure the best ones would carry bondings because with the difficulty increase they would eventually fail.
I think you are all disagree with me because you associated treesclimber+bondings opinion = trash so you react negatively no matter what, while the truth is stats are being taken a lot in consideration because they need to, not giving bondings the multiplier is the same thing as taking a player with only 1 artifact mythic, no rings, no pants or shirt but with bondings instead of a player with those but with an augment, would you pick the first over the second if both where put to your disposition but you didn't know the companion that player has?
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
How can you possibly know whether bondings are giving that IL or maybe insignia?
What if the player is PvP specced and has bondings and all? Will he still do well?
The stuff you're asking for is like having a separate character page saying that the person used bondings, uses these buffs and debuffs, has these insignia bonuses, companion bonuses, etc... And that's not how stuff's supposed to happen no matter how important those things are.
obs.: Im asking because i can't do it
(i'm a bit weird and i dont like to skip content, to the point that i usually skip the 2xXP weekends wille leveling toons and don't join the guild before Lv 60 to avoid overpower the levels
but many of my guild mates may face the same challenge as you so would be nice to know
I also think that if you get that OP to 70 and equip all your stuff (including if you can 2xRP some items to stash in the bank until then), you are likely to find yourself at that borderline stage where you *can* get in. The better enchants you have available, and the more willing you are to throw on a couple of meh-ish epic companions just for the bump, the more likely you are to be able to run everything but the current 3k+ queues, and possibly EDemo. You have dual-slotted rings.
My TR is also missing his guild boons on preview (unimpressive though my available ones may be!). So you can add those in. It also just occurred to me that I had literally nothing at all equipped on his summoned companion, not so much as a Training runestone.
I think you're going to find yourself in better shape than you fear.
But, if all else fails, the first two boons in Sharandar and the entire chain of Dread Ring can be Genie's Gift-ed, and the quest instances to access them are brief. Non-Linu ToD likely can be bought out but with a fairly high cost attached (you need a lot of Lore pages). IWD can progress at decent pace by doing the daily reputation quests and using Gifts for the other items. I'd keep an eye on the calendar to see if they bring back some of the 2xCampaign Currency events they started running, as these are an enormous boost for powering through the old campaigns. I'd say we're due for them.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
And of course you can't know where the IL is coming from, but you dont need to, you just need to look directly to IL and compare it, because cryptic team made it such way, if you have a legendary mount you can expect it to influence you the same as 3 insignias + bonus, this is not accurate and can't ever be, but is the best.
PVE and pvp builds cannot be compared, that would be far, far too complex, there are builds better for this or that situation, sets, enchantments, what i am talking about is simple math: You have more stats, IL is mainly based on stats (and it is, you can't deny) so you get more IL, the end.
@treesclimber This is a reason for Bondings to be balanced somehow or giving other stuff (like augments) some kind of buff (and maybe extra iL).
A single no brainer choice (aka bondings) = 0 build variety in a game.
The current state of the game is: Get bondings, roflstomp content, rinse and repeat.
It also means ppl who can't afford them get left out of content, which is also not healthy for the game.
Giving more iL to them will just inflate the problem even more.
Are these numbers already count with campaigns' boons? Will they affect iL 2.0 ? (I hope that having 4 campaigns finished, and all dug into some point WILL make a difference.)
For example:
I have a 2,100 toon on live that is 6,300 on preview. This is because he has no boons, no companions, and almost no insignias.
I have a 2,000 toon on live that is 6,800 on preview. This is because he has several boons, no companion, but all green insignias
Note that all of these were without guild boons, which do give item level.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John