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[PC] Updated System Requirements

nitocris83nitocris83 Member, Cryptic Developer, Administrator Posts: 4,498 Cryptic Developer
Hail Adventurers,

As of March 1st, 2017, Neverwinter will no longer be supporting Windows XP and Direct3D 9, or Video Cards with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0. This decision was made in order to improve game performance and to optimize the player experience. In order to make this transition as smooth as possible, we have put together a quick FAQ.

What is the timeline for these changes?
You will have plenty of time to upgrade!
• After December 5, 2016, if you are running on Windows XP or using Direct3D 9, or using a Video Card with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0, the launcher will inform you of that fact.
• After January 15, 2017 the launcher will change your game settings to use Direct3D 11 if your system is compatible with it.
• As of March 1, 2017, Neverwinter will no longer be supporting Windows XP and Direct3D 9, or Video Cards with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0.

What Operating System should I be upgrading to?
For the best play experience, Cryptic Studios recommends Windows 10. Note that you will need a Video Card that supports Direct3D Hardware Feature Level 11.0 or better to play on Windows 10.

The game will run on Windows Vista SP2 or better, or Windows 7 or 8 as well. Be aware that Microsoft is discontinuing supporting for Windows Vista as of April 2017.

What cards should I be looking for if I have to upgrade?
For the best play experience, Cryptic Studios recommends a video card that supports Direct3D Feature Level 11.0 or better. This includes:
• NVidia GeForce GTX 400 or better
• ATI/AMD Radeon HD 5000 or better
• Intel HD Graphics 4000 or better

If you are budget conscious, any of the following cards will function. Many of these cards are several years old, but they will still provide a basic Neverwinter experience.
• NVidia GeForce 8000 or better
• ATI/AMD Radeon HD 2000 or better
• Intel G965M Express, or Intel HD Graphics 2000 or better

Above all, take a close look at the Video Card manufacturer’s documentation for any card you are going to purchase, and ensure that the card specifically says it supports Direct3D Hardware Feature Level 10 or higher.

Please feel free to discuss this change in this thread, and let us know any further questions. We will be updating this thread with any additional notices or clarifications as needed.
«134

Comments

  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    Does this mean you are actually updating the game engine? Would be huge imho, because as impressive as an own engine is as feat, the game is lacking in that area quite frankly.
  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    Man I hope this means they're updating the game engine because their implementation of dx11 is buggy as hamster.
    Post edited by urabask on
    I8r4ux9.jpg
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,259 Arc User
    Ok so next expansion on march 1. Noted.
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  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,135 Arc User
    kreatyve said:

    Interesting. Now my husband is going to have to upgrade his dinosaur. He's been rather resistant for reasons that I don't understand.

    Money?
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  • kreatyvekreatyve Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,545 Community Moderator
    greywynd said:

    kreatyve said:

    Interesting. Now my husband is going to have to upgrade his dinosaur. He's been rather resistant for reasons that I don't understand.

    Money?
    It's not really that expensive to upgrade though.
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  • cellablockcellablock Member Posts: 253 Arc User

    Hail Adventurers,

    As of March 1st, 2017, Neverwinter will no longer be supporting Windows XP and Direct3D 9, or Video Cards with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0. This decision was made in order to improve game performance and to optimize the player experience. In order to make this transition as smooth as possible, we have put together a quick FAQ.

    What is the timeline for these changes?
    You will have plenty of time to upgrade!
    • After December 5, 2016, if you are running on Windows XP or using Direct3D 9, or using a Video Card with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0, the launcher will inform you of that fact.
    • After January 15, 2017 the launcher will change your game settings to use Direct3D 11 if your system is compatible with it.
    • As of March 1, 2017, Neverwinter will no longer be supporting Windows XP and Direct3D 9, or Video Cards with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0.

    oh boy dont see this going well for some players but hopefully they will return one day.
  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    edited December 2016

    Hail Adventurers,

    As of March 1st, 2017, Neverwinter will no longer be supporting Windows XP and Direct3D 9, or Video Cards with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0. This decision was made in order to improve game performance and to optimize the player experience. In order to make this transition as smooth as possible, we have put together a quick FAQ.

    What is the timeline for these changes?
    You will have plenty of time to upgrade!
    • After December 5, 2016, if you are running on Windows XP or using Direct3D 9, or using a Video Card with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0, the launcher will inform you of that fact.
    • After January 15, 2017 the launcher will change your game settings to use Direct3D 11 if your system is compatible with it.
    • As of March 1, 2017, Neverwinter will no longer be supporting Windows XP and Direct3D 9, or Video Cards with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0.

    oh boy dont see this going well for some players but hopefully they will return one day.
    The budget options they're listing are nearly 10 years old lol.
    I8r4ux9.jpg
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    Sounds interesting.... so we are going to see a loss of players come March first.

    If you need help upgrading your systems you can go to microcenter.com to purchase parts. Newegg.com as well.

    Just bought a new Asus so see you all in game March first!

    Was using Windows xp prior....


    TIP
    Ebay has some nice cheap computers that can run Windows 10 and neverwinter, some for the price it will take you to upgrade your graphics card ,power supply, and memory.

    Maybe neverwinter will do a few computer give away prizes on live stream?
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  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User

    Sounds interesting.... so we are going to see a loss of players come March first.



    If you need help upgrading your systems you can go to microcenter.com to purchase parts. Newegg.com as well.



    Just bought a new Asus so see you all in game March first!



    Was using Windows xp prior....





    TIP

    Ebay has some nice cheap computers that can run Windows 10 and neverwinter, some for the price it will take you to upgrade your graphics card ,power supply, and memory.



    Maybe neverwinter will do a few computer give away prizes on live stream?

    Windows XP hasn't been getting security updates for two years so I guess Neverwinter is doing something good for those people?
    I8r4ux9.jpg
  • silence1xsilence1x Member Posts: 1,503 Arc User
    urabask said:

    Windows XP hasn't been getting security updates for two years so I guess Neverwinter is doing something good for those people?

    Agreed. Not sure why anyone would be running XP any longer and still go online. No patches/fixes for two years.

    I also hope this means they'll be able to update the game engine. Fingers crossed.

    I aim to misbehave
  • ruffneck#4235 ruffneck Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    edited December 2016

    Hail Adventurers,

    As of March 1st, 2017, Neverwinter will no longer be supporting Windows XP and Direct3D 9, or Video Cards with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0. This decision was made in order to improve game performance and to optimize the player experience. In order to make this transition as smooth as possible, we have put together a quick FAQ.

    What is the timeline for these changes?
    You will have plenty of time to upgrade!
    • After December 5, 2016, if you are running on Windows XP or using Direct3D 9, or using a Video Card with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0, the launcher will inform you of that fact.
    • After January 15, 2017 the launcher will change your game settings to use Direct3D 11 if your system is compatible with it.
    • As of March 1, 2017, Neverwinter will no longer be supporting Windows XP and Direct3D 9, or Video Cards with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0.

    What Operating System should I be upgrading to?
    For the best play experience, Cryptic Studios recommends Windows 10. Note that you will need a Video Card that supports Direct3D Hardware Feature Level 11.0 or better to play on Windows 10.

    The game will run on Windows Vista SP2 or better, or Windows 7 or 8 as well. Be aware that Microsoft is discontinuing supporting for Windows Vista as of April 2017.

    What cards should I be looking for if I have to upgrade?
    For the best play experience, Cryptic Studios recommends a video card that supports Direct3D Feature Level 11.0 or better. This includes:
    • NVidia GeForce GTX 400 or better
    • ATI/AMD Radeon HD 5000 or better
    • Intel HD Graphics 4000 or better

    If you are budget conscious, any of the following cards will function. Many of these cards are several years old, but they will still provide a basic Neverwinter experience.
    • NVidia GeForce 8000 or better
    • ATI/AMD Radeon HD 2000 or better
    • Intel G965M Express, or Intel HD Graphics 2000 or better

    Above all, take a close look at the Video Card manufacturer’s documentation for any card you are going to purchase, and ensure that the card specifically says it supports Direct3D Hardware Feature Level 10 or higher.

    Please feel free to discuss this change in this thread, and let us know any further questions. We will be updating this thread with any additional notices or clarifications as needed.

    @nitocris83

    I hope this means the current developers will fix the coding issues in the game i really am sick and tired of having a £3000 pound pc and having to play your game on low settings because "Cryptic / Craptic as they are called with in the game" cannot fix something as simple as coding.....

    This refers to Skills affecting playing in WOD/SOMI/DF etc

    Icy Terrain
    Careful Attack
    Prism

    And others if you are looking for examples easy to see how a SOTA PC goes from 120 fps down to 5 fps when in High encounter areas these skills as well as other coding issues are the cause.

    1: Small areas in SOMI are fine no issues
    2: No issues on ULTA high settings or low settings (Nvidia 1080 6GB DDR5X)
    3: do a 5 man or 10 man encounter no issues when your solo
    4: no rubber banding or sliding on ice effects
    5: no freezes of client then updating in fast forward etc

    the game itself is good, the story is good but the support aspect is beyond that of " Knowing my luck kreatyve will remove my post if i say what i would normally say"

    beyond disgusting would be the correct term i guess


  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    edited December 2016

    Hail Adventurers,

    As of March 1st, 2017, Neverwinter will no longer be supporting Windows XP and Direct3D 9, or Video Cards with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0. This decision was made in order to improve game performance and to optimize the player experience. In order to make this transition as smooth as possible, we have put together a quick FAQ.

    What is the timeline for these changes?
    You will have plenty of time to upgrade!
    • After December 5, 2016, if you are running on Windows XP or using Direct3D 9, or using a Video Card with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0, the launcher will inform you of that fact.
    • After January 15, 2017 the launcher will change your game settings to use Direct3D 11 if your system is compatible with it.
    • As of March 1, 2017, Neverwinter will no longer be supporting Windows XP and Direct3D 9, or Video Cards with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0.

    What Operating System should I be upgrading to?
    For the best play experience, Cryptic Studios recommends Windows 10. Note that you will need a Video Card that supports Direct3D Hardware Feature Level 11.0 or better to play on Windows 10.

    The game will run on Windows Vista SP2 or better, or Windows 7 or 8 as well. Be aware that Microsoft is discontinuing supporting for Windows Vista as of April 2017.

    What cards should I be looking for if I have to upgrade?
    For the best play experience, Cryptic Studios recommends a video card that supports Direct3D Feature Level 11.0 or better. This includes:
    • NVidia GeForce GTX 400 or better
    • ATI/AMD Radeon HD 5000 or better
    • Intel HD Graphics 4000 or better

    If you are budget conscious, any of the following cards will function. Many of these cards are several years old, but they will still provide a basic Neverwinter experience.
    • NVidia GeForce 8000 or better
    • ATI/AMD Radeon HD 2000 or better
    • Intel G965M Express, or Intel HD Graphics 2000 or better

    Above all, take a close look at the Video Card manufacturer’s documentation for any card you are going to purchase, and ensure that the card specifically says it supports Direct3D Hardware Feature Level 10 or higher.

    Please feel free to discuss this change in this thread, and let us know any further questions. We will be updating this thread with any additional notices or clarifications as needed.

    @nitocris83

    I hope this means the current developers will fix the coding issues in the game i really am sick and tired of having a £3000 pound pc and having to play your game on low settings because "Cryptic / Craptic as they are called with in the game" cannot fix something as simple as coding.....

    This refers to Skills affecting playing in WOD/SOMI/DF etc

    Icy Terrain
    Careful Attack
    Prism

    And others if you are looking for examples easy to see how a SOTA PC goes from 120 fps down to 5 fps when in High encounter areas these skills as well as other coding issues are the cause.

    1: Small areas in SOMI are fine no issues
    2: No issues on ULTA high settings or low settings (Nvidia 1080 6GB DDR5X)
    3: do a 5 man or 10 man encounter no issues when your solo
    4: no rubber banding or sliding on ice effects
    5: no freezes of client then updating in fast forward etc


    the game itself is good, the story is good but the support aspect is beyond that of " Knowing my luck kreatyve will remove my post if i say what i would normally say"

    beyond disgusting would be the correct term i guess


    These sound like connection or server issues. A lot of these can be due to your ISP. Europe in particular seems to have problems with ISPs re-routing traffic in ways that cause problems.
    Post edited by urabask on
    I8r4ux9.jpg
  • blackjackwidowblackjackwidow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 424 Arc User
    Does the update to the launcher today have something to do with this? Logged in this morning (Dec 5) with no messages, logged in approximately 5:30 pm and it popped up an "updating launcher" window with a download/patch before the launcher loaded.
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    No
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  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    According to the STO CM, they announced on the weekend so that people would be warned prior to the launcher updates, so yeah, probably.
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  • scathiasscathias Member Posts: 1,174 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    I have had a lot of issues (aka, the same issue multiple times) in the past with dx 11 that reverting back to dx 9 solved for me so now I only run the game on dx 9. I really, really hope that the devs have fixed the issues with dx 11 before forcing everyone to use it
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  • swoods74swoods74 Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    Yeah, i'm using dx 9 also for same reason. 11 causes my game to crash and more graphic artifacts. Less lag on 11 but crashing right when the fighting gets good is not acceptable. ;-/
  • stelubvstelubv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4 Arc User
    off-
    urabask said:

    Hail Adventurers,

    As of March 1st, 2017, Neverwinter will no longer be supporting Windows XP and Direct3D 9, or Video Cards with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0. This decision was made in order to improve game performance and to optimize the player experience. In order to make this transition as smooth as possible, we have put together a quick FAQ.

    What is the timeline for these changes?
    You will have plenty of time to upgrade!
    • After December 5, 2016, if you are running on Windows XP or using Direct3D 9, or using a Video Card with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0, the launcher will inform you of that fact.
    • After January 15, 2017 the launcher will change your game settings to use Direct3D 11 if your system is compatible with it.
    • As of March 1, 2017, Neverwinter will no longer be supporting Windows XP and Direct3D 9, or Video Cards with a Direct3D Hardware Feature Level less than 10.0.

    What Operating System should I be upgrading to?
    For the best play experience, Cryptic Studios recommends Windows 10. Note that you will need a Video Card that supports Direct3D Hardware Feature Level 11.0 or better to play on Windows 10.

    The game will run on Windows Vista SP2 or better, or Windows 7 or 8 as well. Be aware that Microsoft is discontinuing supporting for Windows Vista as of April 2017.

    What cards should I be looking for if I have to upgrade?
    For the best play experience, Cryptic Studios recommends a video card that supports Direct3D Feature Level 11.0 or better. This includes:
    • NVidia GeForce GTX 400 or better
    • ATI/AMD Radeon HD 5000 or better
    • Intel HD Graphics 4000 or better

    If you are budget conscious, any of the following cards will function. Many of these cards are several years old, but they will still provide a basic Neverwinter experience.
    • NVidia GeForce 8000 or better
    • ATI/AMD Radeon HD 2000 or better
    • Intel G965M Express, or Intel HD Graphics 2000 or better

    Above all, take a close look at the Video Card manufacturer’s documentation for any card you are going to purchase, and ensure that the card specifically says it supports Direct3D Hardware Feature Level 10 or higher.

    Please feel free to discuss this change in this thread, and let us know any further questions. We will be updating this thread with any additional notices or clarifications as needed.

    @nitocris83

    I hope this means the current developers will fix the coding issues in the game i really am sick and tired of having a £3000 pound pc and having to play your game on low settings because "Cryptic / Craptic as they are called with in the game" cannot fix something as simple as coding.....

    This refers to Skills affecting playing in WOD/SOMI/DF etc

    Icy Terrain
    Careful Attack
    Prism

    And others if you are looking for examples easy to see how a SOTA PC goes from 120 fps down to 5 fps when in High encounter areas these skills as well as other coding issues are the cause.

    1: Small areas in SOMI are fine no issues
    2: No issues on ULTA high settings or low settings (Nvidia 1080 6GB DDR5X)
    3: do a 5 man or 10 man encounter no issues when your solo
    4: no rubber banding or sliding on ice effects
    5: no freezes of client then updating in fast forward etc


    the game itself is good, the story is good but the support aspect is beyond that of " Knowing my luck kreatyve will remove my post if i say what i would normally say"

    beyond disgusting would be the correct term i guess


    These sound like connection or server issues. A lot of these can be due to your ISP. Europe in particular seems to have problems with ISPs re-routing traffic in ways that cause problems.
    Europe has now this problem :)) some dude with a boat dragging its anchor along the seabed severed three fiber-optic submarine cables linking the Channel Islands to the UK Monday night [Nov. 30] Thus, all communications to and from the Channel Islands will be pushed through the single line connected to France until the other lines are repaired

  • ruffneck#4235 ruffneck Member Posts: 67 Arc User

    These sound like connection or server issues. A lot of these can be due to your ISP. Europe in particular seems to have problems with ISPs re-routing traffic in ways that cause problems.


    @urabask

    This isnt my connection (apart from what you may be saying regarding people in europe)

    Packet loss is zero or there abouts
    NO lag or ping issues to patch server (although oddly enough when changing characters it comes up some times with a message Connecting to login server) and then times out and i have to login

    all issues "tech support" which i use Verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry loosely have said "its my end" have been resolved via Nw next patch and so forth prooving its not my end....


    On ultra high settings i can play in any area fine but when 15/20/25/30 people are spamming all there skills

    - WOD
    - SOMI BHE (Turtle/Elk/Giants)
    - DF
    - NSVA/MSVA

    there is beyond insane issues

    no matter if i am on Lowest of the low settings that make the game look like im playing on a ZX Spectrum or on Ultra High the results as the same

    Regarding ISPs

    I have tried this on my own 17mb ADSL2+ and my friends FTTC 40mb down 10mb Upload the results are the same

    If this was just my Own isp i would say ok.. but both having EXACT same issue.. if this was " just Europe" then surely Cryptic need to do something

    I was told by GM***** the server i am connecting to is in mainland Europe....... unsure if this is true or not.

    either way i dont get how normal content /solo content plays fine and then when we are in the middle of a 20/25 man light fest fps goes from 120 fps to 5fps

    if they are going to update requirements they need to fix the core issues if what you say is true about Europe routing traffic i would have more than one single issue would i not ?
  • korusenseikorusensei Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14 Arc User
    I'm currently able to run my game well using my Radeon 295x2, only when I have shadows disabled. My game crashes frequently and graphics go haywire when I enable shadows lol.

    Sooo... is this any indication that we will be getting a DX12 engine update??? :*
  • frozenfirevrfrozenfirevr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,475 Community Moderator
    kreatyve said:

    Interesting. Now my husband is going to have to upgrade his dinosaur. He's been rather resistant for reasons that I don't understand.

    O.o You're a lady?!
    FrozenFire
  • sllowpoke#3353 sllowpoke Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    I hope they solve the problem with dx11 before forcing everyone to use it.
    I had to change to dx9 because the game always crash.

    Does anyone else have this problem?
  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator

    O.o You're a lady?!

    Yes, Kreatyve is a lady.

    I hope they solve the problem with dx11 before forcing everyone to use it.
    I had to change to dx9 because the game always crash.

    Does anyone else have this problem?

    Many do. I'll make sure Julia sees these concerns as reverting to DX9 was a very common fix for people even if they were well above the minimum or recommended specs.

    No promises but we can definitely make sure the Devs are aware that people are nervous due to DX9 being arguably more stable to many.

  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 2,285 Arc User
    kreatyve said:

    Interesting. Now my husband is going to have to upgrade his dinosaur. He's been rather resistant for reasons that I don't understand.

    My husband is much the same, he has several machines in the home a few running Vista my laptop is running Windows 10, but he says XP is better because it requires less memory. He is a computer tech for a living so he needs to be knowledgeable in many different systems. If your husbands PC (dinosaur) is like my husbands computer, he also told me it cannot run Windows 10 because its hardware is only 32 in size and need to be 64?

    I don't get it either, just buying a new PC it comes with the current system. Not a big deal Windows XP is over 15 years old.
    wb-cenders.gif
  • macaran5123macaran5123 Member Posts: 122 Arc User

    ...
    On ultra high settings i can play in any area fine but when 15/20/25/30 people are spamming all there skills

    - WOD
    - SOMI BHE (Turtle/Elk/Giants)
    - DF
    - NSVA/MSVA

    there is beyond insane issues
    ...

    These are CPU issues, not graphics. You should only have to drag your CPU slider down, not your GPU slider.

    Yes, the engine was not designed to handle that much, and yes, it's possible with dropping dx9 they will be able to optimize it some for a large number of on-screen characters, but no, I wouldn't hold my breath. =)

  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    Yikes. I'm glad I bought a new laptop last December with Win7 and a much better graphics card. Until mod 8 I was using an older laptop with a hacked-up version of Win2k. The performance in mod 8 was so bad I finally bit the bullet and dropped $3k.
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  • frozenfirevrfrozenfirevr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,475 Community Moderator
    edited December 2016

    kreatyve said:

    Interesting. Now my husband is going to have to upgrade his dinosaur. He's been rather resistant for reasons that I don't understand.

    My husband is much the same, he has several machines in the home a few running Vista my laptop is running Windows 10, but he says XP is better because it requires less memory. He is a computer tech for a living so he needs to be knowledgeable in many different systems. If your husbands PC (dinosaur) is like my husbands computer, he also told me it cannot run Windows 10 because its hardware is only 32 in size and need to be 64?

    I don't get it either, just buying a new PC it comes with the current system. Not a big deal Windows XP is over 15 years old.
    No you don't. I'm on 32 bit running Windows 10. And, memory management is much better in Windows 10. Yes, it does need more memory, not a lot more though, but it runs stuff faster because of various performance optimizations.
    FrozenFire
  • nightstalkornightstalkor Member Posts: 154 Arc User
    So I'm somewhat unclear here. My laptop Is only a few years old. Bought it in 2011 or 2012. Works great. But No way am I loading that POS Windows 10 on my baby. Maybe the next iteration of Windows will be less screwed up, that seems to be the trend w/ Microsoft. And I'm certainly NOT going to drop Two to Three grand on a new laptop, when the current one runs ALL MY other MMO's PERFECTLY FINE.

    Is Cryptic telling me that I need to have Windows 10, and only that program, to run NW? Will the launcher AUTOMATICALLY switch from Direct3D 9 to Direct3D 11 without any effort on my part? Will this alteration be SEAMLESS and not cause any login or connectivity issues?

    Could Cryptic Please lay out the EXACT minimum system requirements that we will NEED to run Direct3D 11 effectively?

    Have to say... this is NOT a great idea. If the devs are reading this, and they SHOULD BE, y'all need to reassess what the heck you're doing here. You haven't answered ANY of these questions... you've just said... "Boom, here ya go." You've pretty much said... "Upgrade or you can't play our game."

    Traditionally that's NOT a good way to retain customers.

    'Nuff Said.
This discussion has been closed.