Dungeon Key Changes

jumpingmorks · October 2016

Players are more than willing to pay cash for stuff they find desirable. If a company is forcing sales in a particular direction, it's barking up the wrong tree. Sell something people want and they will buy it, trying to get blood out of a stone will get you nowhere.

cyn15 · October 2016

So I logged in last night to play like I do every night with my mates, when I jumped in Teamspeak and fired up Neverwinter I found none of them in the Neverwinter room..... Rather they were down in a channel called...... 'World of Warcraft'.

You've already lost a total of 4 accounts just from my circle of influence, 2 of which were massive whales..... It's not that the changes have massively effected them, it's that this is just another strike in the long list of garbage decisions that make no sense to anyone who actually plays the game.

Ask yourself this..... if your life partner/wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend/fish continually makes stupid decisions that don't benefit the relationship and make you cranky and grumpy and not trust them all the time. It doesn't take a huge misappropriation of trust to finally break the relationship, it might be something inconsequential (which may be a huge thing to others), it's more to the point of 'How much is too much before you up and walk away to find a different life partner/wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend/fish that doesn't treat you like HAMSTER'?

So I gave up, logged out and proceeded to download Final Fantasy 14.

uptondarkdiamond · October 2016

defiantone99 said:
Those who do not have the +5 rings they want are out of luck with these changes. They allow one UD skirmish and one CN/Edemo per day.

maybe i don't understand or this is sarcasm...

these dungeons can only be qued for once a day, am I miss interrupting this??? Or is this just based off using keys, man i need to hop on preview and see whats what now...

wylonus · October 2016

i think they are trying to gamble on bad business tactic and seem that they are losing badly and then decide to use the players to "bail them out" with paywall. guess they asked wrong folks.

man, i hope i didnt make you spit coffee when reading this, lol.

lantern22 · October 2016

zebular said:
So, basically what you're saying is that unless they lie and say it was a lie, then they're lying? Why not accept that you cannot accept a truth and move on to actually get to providing substantial feedback on how the change can be made to be acceptable instead of harping on a conspiracy tirade?

Or perhaps the "powers to be" could lance the festering boil that is this thread by issuing an apology of sorts by slightly retracting some of the original post which had some insulting garbage in it. Putting aside whether or not the decline option was a bug, saying that the majority did not know of this feature/option is a load of BS.

This thread probably creates a record for most comments in the shortest time, almost entirely everyone (including, it seems, most of the mods) agrees. If what Cryptic wanted to do was unite the clans against you, well you have done a good job.

. . . . but talk about digging yourself into a deeper hole . . . . . . Nothing against your personally, but sometimes its better to admit you/the company are wrong.

Now to perhaps add some constructive discussion (perhaps). I'd be happy if you didn't have the decline option for free keys (including those with VIP) but if you pay for a key, you should either get the decline option, get something decent everytime or at least on average be guaranteed to get a reasonable return on your investment. Otherwise it is a kick in the face to your paying customers who are your Client (and they should be treated with respect).

urabask · October 2016

uptondarkdiamond said:

defiantone99 said:
Those who do not have the +5 rings they want are out of luck with these changes. They allow one UD skirmish and one CN/Edemo per day.
maybe i don't understand or this is sarcasm...

these dungeons can only be qued for once a day, am I miss interrupting this??? Or is this just based off using keys, man i need to hop on preview and see whats what now...

Because you'll be getting half as many rolls at loot if you don't have a key.

Unknown · October 2016

This content has been removed.

ajlir · October 2016

To @ambisinisterr @zebular @ironzerg79 and the rest of moderators and community managers,

Can you compile a list of current bugs acknowledged from developers and pin it in a new thread?

Edit: Preferably if you separate them within categories.

Example:
Console-related bugs - PS4, XBone, PC discussion
PvE-related bugs (like this dungeon key change) - PvE discussion
PvP-related bugs - PvP discussion
Class-specific bugs (encounters, feats etc) - Class-related discussion

midpoint · October 2016

Fk this disrespectful bs total lack of OFFICIAL response.

I'm a whale, PS4... Spent more than a few HUNDRED $$$$.

Just bought Battlefield 1 and FF15 Pre order today. I earn pretty good, guess my custom nor the thousands of other people on here, reddit and elsewhere are worth responding too.

I hope this company goes bankrupt, only after you're poor will you learn to look after the ones that feed you.

To the devs, I'm coming to realise these bad decisions are coming from above.... please find work elsewhere, start looking and applying today. This studio doesn't deserve you and good coders are never out of work.

zebular · October 2016

panderus said:
I don't think there is anything I can say that would assuage anyone at this time other than, "We are rolling back the changes." I can't make that call but all of the feedback we have received and HOW it was received is certainly noted. I will certainly talk to some people about the reaction.

I just want to be clear, I am not promising anything, I am just stating, "you have been heard."

Personally, I would like to see loot in all chests that consume keys to be worthwhile to open, regardless of their content. They need to have something in them that is both worth the time of the content ran and worth the key consumed. If this could be assured and done, then I am sure that folks would have no problems with the change. As it is right now, almost all the time the loot in the chests is sorely disappointing.

thegreatmikey · October 2016

Okay Zebulon, I am going to use a courtroom analogy to explain my understanding of your original post. I copied and pated because, well, I am lazy and not very computer literate.

"Now, on to the those claiming that the "this is a bug" is a lie. It is not. The Moderators were told early on just after Module 3 that being able to open a chest and not take the contents but keep your key was indeed a bug. That the decline button was there for those who did not want the loot, not for those who did not want to consume their key. However, as this wasn't something of a real issue and there was a clique of people claiming it was an exploit to look and not take, it was deemed best to remain silent on the issue, lest we fuel a group of player's crusade to name and shame folks for "exploiting." In short, years ago, it was indeed deemed a bug but was not pursued as an exploit.

So, can we now please move on from this whole claim that they are lieing about it being a bug? Such does nothing to add to productive feedback. Thanks!"

I even left in the typo, "lieing," which should be , "lying."

I am intentionally keeping this vague as I am not a lawyer and am only familiar at all with the Canadian legal system. And this is no court of law.

So, after reading this and some other posts that reluctantly backed up this point, and since I played way back then too and vaguely remember it, what you have done is introduced reasonable doubt. When this happens in a criminal case this means that the accused cannot be convicted. This is what a good lawyer tries to do and a credible witness supplies (you are now labled "credible). It does not mean that the accused is not guilty. It only means that the accused cannot be convicted at that time.

However, in a civil case reasonable doubt is not the standard. Only likelihood is. The best that reasonable doubt can do in a civil suit is lessen the damages that must be paid if the accused is found guilty. It also means that those declared not guilty in a criminal suit can still lose a civil one (for example O.J. Simpson had this happen to him).

We on this forum can be compared to a class action civil suit. We don't know the law, we only believe that we are suffering a loss and want that rectified or compensated or both.

I hope everyone redirects their anger away from you and back on to the proper target.

waryur · October 2016

Posting about my experience with keys and bad loot and bad drop rates and what this change means to me, a casual player.

Beta player here. Story time.
Last time I seriously grinded dungeons for gear was to get pieces of Avatar of War and High Prophet sets. The grind was bad, but you know what, eventually the stuff dropped. Maybe after five runs. Maybe after 100. But it did drop. And they dropped from the bosses! Not a chest.

When keys were introduced, the drop rates were/are so bad, I stopped trying to grind dungeons and skirmishes. I flat out stopped. I don't have the patience or time to run something 1000 times, like some guildmates were doing. I gave up. I saved my astrals, and slowly bought my gear off the AH.

With more gear being bind on pickup and not available on AH, I'm having to run dungeons. I recently started running dungeons again, most I've not ran since they were introduced. Re-learning how they work now with all the changes over the years.

Initially I had completely forgotten I could decline the loot. And forgot that if I declined, I wouldn't use a key. So I accepted all that useless loot that did nothing for me. Once I remembered, I heaved a sigh of relief. That I wouldn't have to waste a key to find out if I was getting useless loot or not.

Now I'm being told that yes, I will have to waste that key to find out the loot is useless. I already know that odds are it will be useless or not what I need. Everyone's talking about +5 rings, shoot I've only gotten 1 +4 ring I can kinda sorta use.

To get those keys, I'm going to have to grind normal content all over again in order to make them in the campaign window. Because, like a good guildmate, I have dumped all those sparks and dwarven gold, 3 and a half years of gameplay, into my guild's stronghold coffer. I don't have stacks of keys. Or even the 15 different keys.

Being able to "peek" into the chest without using a key saved my sanity. I saw that I could still grind, and it would suck, but it was possible to keep up with the gameplay because I could just queue up and run it again and again until good loot happened. I had hope. Now, I don't. Either I pay to win, or endless grind, to make an unbelieveable amount of keys. I don't want to do either.

I feel with this change it will be impossible for a casual player, who works and attempts to have social life, to play any new content for months simply because they have to play the same tired stuff over and over to get the components(or astrals) to make a key to run a dungeon to open a chest that will probably not contain what the player needs in order to be strong enough to even play the new content.

Only 3 suggestions at this time, after reading all 37 pages my brain is toast. If someone already suggested these, I beg thy pardon.
1) Have loot drop from the bosses again. Actual, meaningful loot. Put the need/greed system back to work, otherwise it's just rank 5s to decide on.
2) Improve chest drop rate across the board.
3) Different rewards from special events such as CTA - more astrals, a chance for lanolin. Things that will help the grinding.

eselweiher · October 2016

I really dont get it^^ i mean...what kind of logic drives you to a decision like the one they re going to take? "Hey Mr. Cryptic Overlord s speaking, what are we gonna do today?" *We dont know chief...* "Ahhhh got a great idea to satisfy our wallets instead of satisfy the players who would be going to spend money to satisfy our wallets so everyone would be satisfied. Im really trying to see the whole "explanation" different but im not able...so...there MUST be an ERROR. Come on guys...the loot isnt everything but valuable - especially the rng is just boring as hillary clintons sexappel. So if the Keychange of calling the declining of horrible loot as a bug - HOLY GUACAMOLY - is your final conclusion i really have to say that im totally disappointed of the future possibilitys this game would have as long as you devs use your brain right..(My Mother always warned me from people like you. Its ALMOST that big when Nixon said they were attacked in the golf of tonkin..drama baby..drama...) Once upon a time we had nice loot, goood Dungeon Runs and a lot of fun. Unique Items associated with rare Skins, sweet different Sets - just coloured up. What s the loot of T2 Dungeons right now? Not to compare..i mean T2 - no RP Stones, no rank 8 nor rank 9 ench...auroras catalogue of the cryptic Reich?- not even a 100% chance to drop a peridot by killing a boss? Imagine this scenario on new players.. ->"Cold as ice" So my conclusion: By far the keys arent not worth it! Today we re grinding for a armour breast plate based on 50 lanolin which only drop by HAMSTER your cognition. (Took me about 80 HEs with my DC only to get the right UNRESTORED BOOTS in Bryn Shader - after "rng success i went to bed) And what about FBI - a really GREAT Dungeon...awesome to play...and finish..but...."HOLD ON -->> the fortune teller didnt told me about the chest in the chest and a Aquamarine from Drufy himself...that s it....There wont be fun without fun anymore and as long the devs deside not to reflect their "Rule with an iron hand mentality" people wont spend money any longer and leaving with huge steps the game that once was not perfect but more exciting than now....

Isit really that difficult to understand?

Cheers

Debuffma Gandhi

zebular · October 2016

ajlir#7970 said:
To @ambisinisterr @zebular @ironzerg79 and the rest of moderators and community managers,

Can you compile a list of current bugs acknowledged from developers and pin it in a new thread?

Edit: Preferably if you separate them within categories.

Example:
Console-related bugs - PS4, XBone, PC discussion
PvE-related bugs (like this dungeon key change) - PvE discussion
PvP-related bugs - PvP discussion
Class-specific bugs (encounters, feats etc) - Class-related discussion

This would be great to do. The only problem I foresee barring this is that Cryptic would need to take the time to go through and pull out what they deem an exploit and what they don't and then that list would be used to justify or persecute bugs both on and not on the list upon on the Community by the Community. Such should be clear here with how easily the word exploiter is being shoved around over the very bug this thread is about. I don't see this happening in any greater detail than the Bug Reporting Forums and occasional Known Issues stickies we already make use of.

uptondarkdiamond · October 2016

urabask said:

uptondarkdiamond said:

defiantone99 said:
Those who do not have the +5 rings they want are out of luck with these changes. They allow one UD skirmish and one CN/Edemo per day.
maybe i don't understand or this is sarcasm...

these dungeons can only be qued for once a day, am I miss interrupting this??? Or is this just based off using keys, man i need to hop on preview and see whats what now...
Because you'll be getting half as many rolls at loot if you don't have a key.

Ok, I miss-interrupted, got it.

matthiasthehun76 · October 2016

@panderus

You guys need to work on this "RNG" heavily before going live with the key and other changes in that patch. It's simply murderous to most of us, well to 99% of the game population.

Those who have "luck" or we can call it "RNG", like on this picture sure are quiet and they support the changes, but i guess they are minority here.

This is from a distant buddy of mine, the picture is part of a screenshot, where he had this streak of "luck" in succession.

Let us count together, how many +5 rings he got in eDEMO, better not.

Now hands up how many don't have anything closely as valauable as this and with the upcoming changes will probably never see anything like it.

So my humble advise (i am a just a poor noob in marketing from Benz and Bosch and ...) would be, first iron out this RNG HAMSTER and then, but only then push out the new patch.

ajlir · October 2016

zebular said:

ajlir#7970 said:
To @ambisinisterr @zebular @ironzerg79 and the rest of moderators and community managers,

Can you compile a list of current bugs acknowledged from developers and pin it in a new thread?

Edit: Preferably if you separate them within categories.

Example:
Console-related bugs - PS4, XBone, PC discussion
PvE-related bugs (like this dungeon key change) - PvE discussion
PvP-related bugs - PvP discussion
Class-specific bugs (encounters, feats etc) - Class-related discussion
This would be great to do. The only problem I foresee barring this is that Cryptic would need to take the time to go through and pull out what they deem an exploit and what they don't and then that list would be used to justify or persecute bugs both on and not on the list upon on the Community by the Community. Such should be clear here with how easily the word exploiter is being shoved around over the very bug this thread is about. I don't see this happening in any greater detail than the Bug Reporting Forums and occasional Known Issues stickies we already make use of.

There's a reason why I said "acknowledged from developers". Any bugs found by the community but not acknowledged by the developers won't be in the list.

At this point, I will call this a "progressive revamp" because the developers are starting from a very old bug, which is in their fix list for a long while. It also implies (yes, I'm just assuming, I don't know how they work) that they're looking through their list. But yes, let's give time to moderators and developers to sort the list out. I assume that it'll be a long list. A very long list. Oh. And also, put status to KIV (keep in view) on issues that hasn't been decided to be justified or persecuted yet.

The bug reports section currently (in my opinion) is unrefined. From my perspective, it's only for the community to report bugs. That's it.

Whether the developers acknowledge this bug found by the community or the developers found a bug/exploit that is not known by the community is another matter entirely. Plus, it's not really an efficient tool to find known bugs/exploits from bugs section unless a search filter (which may or may not be there). Example would be the Moonbear insignia bonus. I'm not sure if this is intended for this mount to not provide a bonus or not.

We don't really need another thread like this. So there. A list is preferable and has to be updated frequently (weekly is still fine).

frozenfirevr · October 2016

This is the crux of this discussion. Make it heard.

zebular said:
That the decline button was there for those who did not want the loot, not for those who did not want to consume their key.

Back in Mod 3, keys needed AD, 10k AD I believe. You open a chest, got a Peridot (Yay!), you lost your key, would you decline? Taking that peridot and selling it would atleast get you 5% of your cost back. So, nobody, I repeat, nobody, let me be very clear, nobody will decline a chest with their key consumed, that option should NEVER EXIST if what you're saying is true. Let's say you open a Runic Lockbox, you get a Runic Insignia Pack from which you get 2 bloody uncommon Insignias (800 AD out of 62500 AD, awesome!), do you see a Decline button anywhere? Huh? Let's say you open a Coffer of Celestial Artifact Equipment, you get a Rank 4 Enchantment and a Thaumaturgic Stone, again, any Decline buttons visible? NO, because you used up whatever you used to open it and there's no reason to decline a reward that you paid for. Campaign keys now no longer require AD, but the Campaign Currency still needs effort and don't magically appear in your bags, they sure as heck ain't free. There was a reason only chests had a Decline button, cause you're allowed to decline without losing anything but time.

Anyways, what's the logic behind not being able to decline? I take the rewards, my hands are full and can't place the shiny peridot on the floor to get my key back. But, if I decide the rewards ain't worth the key, I can lock it back up and take my key with me. How's that a 'BUG'?

Conclusion, THIS is NOT a BUG! No matter what you say.

And, being a moderator, you CANNOT go around advertising 'bugs' whether or not they are condoned.

I believe I've disagreed without being disagreeable. If you can, @zebular, @ambisinisterr, @panderus, disagree without being disagreeable and I (and probably the entire community) will let it pass.

talon1970 · October 2016

So here is my "exploiting history":

- Started playing a few days before caturday, everytime i entered PE i was asked if i want a cat...a cat...CATS EVERYWHERE!!
I declined

- Mod1 Sharandar went live, coming home from work, everywhere Admin messages ..."xxxx has acquired an Mystic Nightmare" i had bought with real cash some keys, i declined opening lockboxes, bc it was obviously an bug.

- Arcane Reservoir i declined sharing with people these Quest at the beginning from Mod1 bc again it felt like a bug and a lot of people getting banned.

- Feywild Ioun Stone: A guild member bought Zen with cash and was getting the Feywild Stone as an accountwide Reward. One evening after an patch day, there was an bug that these Stone was not accountwide, it was free.
He asked me if i want some for my chars, I declined, bc it was clearly an bug. He recieved an perma ban, my normal terror enchant, wich i gave him until he was able to build one for himself was gone too. I declined to write a ticket bc it was my own fault.

- Mod5 Trickster Rouge Rework: I declined changing my perfect vorpal against my perfect Plaguefire, bc SoD was bugged and i didn't want to outdps guildmates by 2x, 3x or 4x.

- Death Slaad: All of my guildmates declined opening the pack to get one, bc again and again it was an bug and we know that.
(To be clear some of us opened it for the collection and then they thrown him away.)

Sure i have forgotten some things, but now i am standing here:

Called as an exploiter bc i declined wasting keys for an reward, that is not worth it.

If i was threatening customers in my job in that way, i am sure they would never ever call again my company again for the next time, and if my boss figured out i was the reason bc of unfriendly behavior, doing terrible mistakes and so on, i am pretty sure that these was my last day at work.

Sorry for my bad english.

telprydain · October 2016

I'm going to be watching this closely - because while I went through 'Coal-gate', at the end of the day it was a failure to implement a feature, rather than actively taking something away. The whole thing was shady as hell... but it was feasible that it was just a communication error.
The only way this will be deemed acceptable is if the loot tables are totally reworked to ensure that the loot offered matches the cost of the key. No more rank 1 rings, no more peridots.

You don't get the benefit of the doubt this time. If you sabotage your own player-base like this, you're not going to be able to bribe them off with a few coal wards and a ruby.

zebular · October 2016

talon1970 said:
So here is my "exploiting history":

- Started playing a few days before caturday, everytime i entered PE i was asked if i want a cat...a cat...CATS EVERYWHERE!!
I declined

- Mod1 Sharandar went live, coming home from work, everywhere Admin messages ..."xxxx has acquired an Mystic Nightmare" i had bought with real cash some keys, i declined opening lockboxes, bc it was obviously an bug.

- Arcane Reservoir i declined sharing with people these Quest at the beginning from Mod1 bc again it felt like a bug and a lot of people getting banned.

- Feywild Ioun Stone: A guild member bought Zen with cash and was getting the Feywild Stone as an accountwide Reward. One evening after an patch day, there was an bug that these Stone was not accountwide, it was free.
He asked me if i want some for my chars, I declined, bc it was clearly an bug. He recieved an perma ban, my normal terror enchant, wich i gave him until he was able to build one for himself was gone too. I declined to write a ticket bc it was my own fault.

- Mod5 Trickster Rouge Rework: I declined changing my perfect vorpal against my perfect Plaguefire, bc SoD was bugged and i didn't want to outdps guildmates by 2x, 3x or 4x.

- Death Slaad: All of my guildmates declined opening the pack to get one, bc again and again it was an bug and we know that.
(To be clear some of us opened it for the collection and then they thrown him away.)

Sure i have forgotten some things, but now i am standing here:

Called as an exploiter bc i declined wasting keys for an reward, that is not worth it.

If i was threatening customers in my job in that way, i am sure they would never ever call again my company again for the next time, and if my boss figured out i was the reason bc of unfriendly behavior, doing terrible mistakes and so on, i am pretty sure that these was my last day at work.

Sorry for my bad english.

The only people calling it an exploit are players, mainly those trying to spin a negative connotation on its use or point fingers in shame and to use as a means to justify their argument. It was never deemed an exploit, it was deemed an acceptable bug. If such is an exploit, then people logging in to the game while there was a bug with the UI that didn't display their characters would be an exploit. Just because a bug exists, it doesn't mean it is an exploit. I suggest to stop labeling yourself as an exploiter for something that was never deemed an exploit by the game staff. The only ones calling it an exploit are the players and all this labeling and shaming just proves my point as to why we were asked to not call it a bug years ago, for it is clear people will misconstrue that and label as an exploit it for their own agenda.

tripsofthrymr · October 2016

I wanted to keep up with this thread better but I have been away for the past two days speaking at a market research conference about, of all things, customer loyalty. Here's what I believe to be true:

Was it a bug?

The developers likely thought about it in those terms for a long time.

OK, but was it a bug?

It doesn't matter that they probably honestly categorized it internally as a bug. It has been around so long that players consider it an integral part of the game. It's like common law marriage. When you behave in a certain way for a long time, that behavior becomes a commitment. Long-standing "bugs" that players come to rely on become features. Call them common law features.

Should Cryptic have called it a bug?

HAMSTER no.

Was there a conspiracy about the bug?

No. It apparently was mentioned between @Strumslinger and some moderators in the distant past. I wasn't there, but I seriously doubt that the issue of whether and how it would be fixed came up. These things aren't decided by community managers and especially not by moderators. I find it very improbable (laughable even) that anyone conspired to keep this information secret from the players.

Is this a good change?

Done right, it could be good for the game. It would allow the developers more certainty in designing loot tables. It is their equivalent of the fixed-damage weapons that @thefabricant has been asking for (@panderus it would be very nice to get that in the schedule for 10.5).

Was this change done right?

It was done horribly. My current interpretation is that it was done with an eye toward module 10.5 onward without giving due consideration to all of the existing content. For example, a key that costs AD5000 can yield at best (with 50% salvage bonus and VIP) AD3300 plus a few random RP items. If you make a change with so much impact on players, you must consider the full scope of the impact and ensure that players perceive the change as fair.

Are the players right to be mad?

The customer is always right (at least, a large segment of the customer base speaking with a unified voice).

Why are the players so mad?

The manner in which this change was handled undermines our sense of security and our sense of trust.

Can PWE ignore the anger?

Without security, we will not feel free to spend money on the game. We cannot experience a sense of harmony. We cannot love the game. We will become disloyal and will defect to other games that, at a minimum, provide that sense of security.

Where can we go from here?

As Neo said, "where we go from here is a choice I leave to you." The player's sense of security needs to be restored. That can't be done with a shiny new augment (with the two most "desirable" stats in the game). It can't be done by simply rolling back this change. You do that by consistently listening to your players and showing us that you're listening. Of course, some decisions will be driven by economic considerations. Players won't always get exactly what they want. That's fine. You're in business to make money.

The thing is, you'll make more money if you delight your customers.

uptondarkdiamond · October 2016

tripsofthrymr said:
I wanted to keep up with this thread better but I have been away for the past two days speaking at a market research conference about, of all things, customer loyalty. Here's what I believe to be true:

Was it a bug?

The developers likely thought about it in those terms for a long time.

OK, but was it a bug?

It doesn't matter that they probably honestly categorized it internally as a bug. It has been around so long that players consider it an integral part of the game. It's like common law marriage. When you behave in a certain way for a long time, that behavior becomes a commitment. Long-standing "bugs" that players come to rely on become features. Call them common law features.

Should Cryptic have called it a bug?

HAMSTER no.

Was there a conspiracy about the bug?

No. It apparently was mentioned between @Strumslinger and some moderators in the distant past. I wasn't there, but I seriously doubt that the issue of whether and how it would be fixed came up. These things aren't decided by community managers and especially not by moderators. I find it very improbable (laughable even) that anyone conspired to keep this information secret from the players.

Is this a good change?

Done right, it could be good for the game. It would allow the developers more certainty in designing loot tables. It is their equivalent of the fixed-damage weapons that @thefabricant has been asking for (@panderus it would be very nice to get that in the schedule for 10.5).

Was this change done right?

It was done horribly. My current interpretation is that it was done with an eye toward module 10.5 onward without giving due consideration to all of the existing content. For example, a key that costs AD5000 can yield at best (with 50% salvage bonus and VIP) AD3300 plus a few random RP items. If you make a change with so much impact on players, you must consider the full scope of the impact and ensure that players perceive the change as fair.

Are the players right to be mad?

The customer is always right (at least, a large segment of the customer base speaking with a unified voice).

Why are the players so mad?

The manner in which this change was handled undermines our sense of security and our sense of trust.

Can PWE ignore the anger?

Without security, we will not feel free to spend money on the game. We cannot experience a sense of harmony. We cannot love the game. We will become disloyal and will defect to other games that, at a minimum, provide that sense of security.

Where can we go from here?

As Neo said, "where we go from here is a choice I leave to you." The player's sense of security needs to be restored. That can't be done with a shiny new augment (with the two most "desirable" stats in the game). It can't be done by simply rolling back this change. You do that by consistently listening to your players and showing us that you're listening. Of course, some decisions will be driven by economic considerations. Players won't always get exactly what they want. That's fine. You're in business to make money.

The thing is, you'll make more money if you delight your customers.

+1

@tripsofthrymr you summed it up very well, I see your new moderator powers have kicked in

dupeks · October 2016

tripsofthrymr said:
I wanted to keep up with this thread better but I have been away for the past two days speaking at a market research conference about, of all things, customer loyalty. Here's what I believe to be true:

Was it a bug?

The developers likely thought about it in those terms for a long time.

OK, but was it a bug?

It doesn't matter that they probably honestly categorized it internally as a bug. It has been around so long that players consider it an integral part of the game. It's like common law marriage. When you behave in a certain way for a long time, that behavior becomes a commitment. Long-standing "bugs" that players come to rely on become features. Call them common law features.

Should Cryptic have called it a bug?

HAMSTER no.

Was there a conspiracy about the bug?

No. It apparently was mentioned between @Strumslinger and some moderators in the distant past. I wasn't there, but I seriously doubt that the issue of whether and how it would be fixed came up. These things aren't decided by community managers and especially not by moderators. I find it very improbable (laughable even) that anyone conspired to keep this information secret from the players.

Is this a good change?

Done right, it could be good for the game. It would allow the developers more certainty in designing loot tables. It is their equivalent of the fixed-damage weapons that @thefabricant has been asking for (@panderus it would be very nice to get that in the schedule for 10.5).

Was this change done right?

It was done horribly. My current interpretation is that it was done with an eye toward module 10.5 onward without giving due consideration to all of the existing content. For example, a key that costs AD5000 can yield at best (with 50% salvage bonus and VIP) AD3300 plus a few random RP items. If you make a change with so much impact on players, you must consider the full scope of the impact and ensure that players perceive the change as fair.

Are the players right to be mad?

The customer is always right (at least, a large segment of the customer base speaking with a unified voice).

Why are the players so mad?

The manner in which this change was handled undermines our sense of security and our sense of trust.

Can PWE ignore the anger?

Without security, we will not feel free to spend money on the game. We cannot experience a sense of harmony. We cannot love the game. We will become disloyal and will defect to other games that, at a minimum, provide that sense of security.

Where can we go from here?

As Neo said, "where we go from here is a choice I leave to you." The player's sense of security needs to be restored. That can't be done with a shiny new augment (with the two most "desirable" stats in the game). It can't be done by simply rolling back this change. You do that by consistently listening to your players and showing us that you're listening. Of course, some decisions will be driven by economic considerations. Players won't always get exactly what they want. That's fine. You're in business to make money.

The thing is, you'll make more money if you delight your customers.

Incredibly well thought out and articulated.

Thank you for this, I agree completely and I think you point out some very important details about the underpinnings of the player outrage, and what can be done to best move forward.

zebular · October 2016

tripsofthrymr said:
I wanted to keep up with this thread better but I have been away for the past two days speaking at a market research conference about, of all things, customer loyalty. Here's what I believe to be true:

Was it a bug?

The developers likely thought about it in those terms for a long time.

OK, but was it a bug?

It doesn't matter that they probably honestly categorized it internally as a bug. It has been around so long that players consider it an integral part of the game. It's like common law marriage. When you behave in a certain way for a long time, that behavior becomes a commitment. Long-standing "bugs" that players come to rely on become features. Call them common law features.

Should Cryptic have called it a bug?

HAMSTER no.

Was there a conspiracy about the bug?

No. It apparently was mentioned between @Strumslinger and some moderators in the distant past. I wasn't there, but I seriously doubt that the issue of whether and how it would be fixed came up. These things aren't decided by community managers and especially not by moderators. I find it very improbable (laughable even) that anyone conspired to keep this information secret from the players.

Is this a good change?

Done right, it could be good for the game. It would allow the developers more certainty in designing loot tables. It is their equivalent of the fixed-damage weapons that @thefabricant has been asking for (@panderus it would be very nice to get that in the schedule for 10.5).

Was this change done right?

It was done horribly. My current interpretation is that it was done with an eye toward module 10.5 onward without giving due consideration to all of the existing content. For example, a key that costs AD5000 can yield at best (with 50% salvage bonus and VIP) AD3300 plus a few random RP items. If you make a change with so much impact on players, you must consider the full scope of the impact and ensure that players perceive the change as fair.

Are the players right to be mad?

The customer is always right (at least, a large segment of the customer base speaking with a unified voice).

Why are the players so mad?

The manner in which this change was handled undermines our sense of security and our sense of trust.

Can PWE ignore the anger?

Without security, we will not feel free to spend money on the game. We cannot experience a sense of harmony. We cannot love the game. We will become disloyal and will defect to other games that, at a minimum, provide that sense of security.

Where can we go from here?

As Neo said, "where we go from here is a choice I leave to you." The player's sense of security needs to be restored. That can't be done with a shiny new augment (with the two most "desirable" stats in the game). It can't be done by simply rolling back this change. You do that by consistently listening to your players and showing us that you're listening. Of course, some decisions will be driven by economic considerations. Players won't always get exactly what they want. That's fine. You're in business to make money.

The thing is, you'll make more money if you delight your customers.

Indeed, I agree with all of this. I just wish they'd lay out their plans to make chests worth the time and key they will always consume. I can accept the change, I just want to know the change is going to be for the better. It's not going to stop me from playing or looting chests, but I do long for the day when the chests I loot actually make me happy that I looted them.

What should have been done is laid out a clear plan on loot changes, where-in stating that eventually being able to "peek" will be removed. They then should roll out the loot changes allowing people to get a feel for the new loot and monitor whether people are accepting the loot or not, and then after much consideration and possible tweaking to the loot changes, announce ahead of time when the "peeking" will be removed.

Dropping it in a bombshell with little sign of things being for the "better" and in the wording it was done, as a definitive bug (especially when before when we weren't allowed to label it as a bug), was a huge oversight. What is done is done and I am hopeful for the future as I think this will lead to the loot tables for chests (or even in general) to finally be recognized as needing adjusting.

midpoint · October 2016

This is well past the point of return, a roll back won't save the damage done. This change was just the straw that broke the camels back. For too long, Cryptic takes, takes, takes & gives nothing. More & more RNG, no realistic chance at legendary rings, mounts and prized artifacts & equipment, unless you're prepared for the 1000 runs of trash to maybe get lucky.

Quality of Life needs a complete overhaul and redesign, REWARD YOUR PLAYERS. They will invest more with progression, buy more character slots, more equipment & keys to get geared faster. This is how you can lift sales and improve players QoL. Trying to monetise every little xp gain has killed the game to the point that everyone is leaving. Design and sell new fashion sets, whales will buy that individual look good stuff. Be creative, not punishing with your real money $$ bolt ons.

The decision makers of this game need to grow a set of balls and man the f up to this mess. Still waiting on an official response with authority, instead they hide like cowards behind mods & devs with no power to make the changes required to fix this mess.

groglast · October 2016

Is this how the developers want it to be? The community and devs at each others' throats so often. The community at each others' throats in response. Community moderators left to fend for themselves trying to explain things without official support. Many posters threatening to quit. Some maybe actually quitting. Accusations of lying and spinning. Virtually endless complaints that seem to be ignored.

Will they treat this like a papercut that needs a bandaid, or a severed artery that needs to be sutured and healed over time?

How can I say it better than tripsofthrymr said it above? I know that most players don't post on the forums, but the message in this thread should be louder than a packed crowd in a stadium of the final minutes of a close football game. The decision makers and community representatives in Cryptic should not let the sun go down on Friday without an official reply, preferably with a follow up Q&A session in the forums (or scheduling such a follow up for next week), preferably one in which they answer every question.

This is just my opinion and recommendation.

micky1p00 · October 2016

zebular said:

talon1970 said:
So here is my "exploiting history":

- Started playing a few days before caturday, everytime i entered PE i was asked if i want a cat...a cat...CATS EVERYWHERE!!
I declined

- Mod1 Sharandar went live, coming home from work, everywhere Admin messages ..."xxxx has acquired an Mystic Nightmare" i had bought with real cash some keys, i declined opening lockboxes, bc it was obviously an bug.

- Arcane Reservoir i declined sharing with people these Quest at the beginning from Mod1 bc again it felt like a bug and a lot of people getting banned.

- Feywild Ioun Stone: A guild member bought Zen with cash and was getting the Feywild Stone as an accountwide Reward. One evening after an patch day, there was an bug that these Stone was not accountwide, it was free.
He asked me if i want some for my chars, I declined, bc it was clearly an bug. He recieved an perma ban, my normal terror enchant, wich i gave him until he was able to build one for himself was gone too. I declined to write a ticket bc it was my own fault.

- Mod5 Trickster Rouge Rework: I declined changing my perfect vorpal against my perfect Plaguefire, bc SoD was bugged and i didn't want to outdps guildmates by 2x, 3x or 4x.

- Death Slaad: All of my guildmates declined opening the pack to get one, bc again and again it was an bug and we know that.
(To be clear some of us opened it for the collection and then they thrown him away.)

Sure i have forgotten some things, but now i am standing here:

Called as an exploiter bc i declined wasting keys for an reward, that is not worth it.

If i was threatening customers in my job in that way, i am sure they would never ever call again my company again for the next time, and if my boss figured out i was the reason bc of unfriendly behavior, doing terrible mistakes and so on, i am pretty sure that these was my last day at work.

Sorry for my bad english.
The only people calling it an exploit are players, mainly those trying to spin a negative connotation on its use or point fingers in shame and to use as a means to justify their argument. It was never deemed an exploit, it was deemed an acceptable bug. If such is an exploit, then people logging in to the game while there was a bug with the UI that didn't display their characters would be an exploit. Just because a bug exists, it doesn't mean it is an exploit. I suggest to stop labeling yourself as an exploiter for something that was never deemed an exploit by the game staff. The only ones calling it an exploit are the players and all this labeling and shaming just proves my point as to why we were asked to not call it a bug years ago, for it is clear people will misconstrue that and label as an exploit it for their own agenda.

This is just not correct, here is where it was labeled as an exploit by neverwinter team. It's the definition of exploit, taking advantage of what was labeled a bug for a benefit over people who didn't took advantage:

xeltey said:

We are pleased to address this bug because it resolves an inequity between the minority of players who knew about it and the majority who did not, and because the Neverwinter design team will be better able to design rewards for chests going forward now that the bug has been fixed.

- The Neverwinter Team

So perhaps enough with trying to wiggle out of it. Just looking worse and worse doing it. And worse the entire conversation is not about a single mod. I don't think most give a hamster about it. We saw what we saw, and we understood everything.
Either the bug is a blatant lie or the company didn't bother to fix a bug that screwed the entire game loot and by them made a minority richer. (BS). Having a mod tell a player to use what he knows as a bug to his advantage is just an icing on the cake. And only shows how integral that 'bug' was and how wrong the post is. So again, please stop trying to wiggle out of it. It just makes it worse, albeit funny & sad to watch.

But it's not the issue, this is closer:

tripsofthrymr said:
snip

That is all nice, but not the main issue, the main issue is this:

ironzerg79 said:
Exactly. The root cause is NOT the peeking.

It's the fact that we HAD to peek because the loot SUCKED.

That's the bottom line. If 95% of the time people actually USED the key to TAKE the loot, this would be a non-issue.

Do the developer not see this? I'm literally exasperated to the point where it's getting tough to type.

The loot is so bad in the game that people are clearing content, opening up the reward chest and saying, "No thanks".

Can we let that sink in for a minute.

Sinking...

Sinking...

Sinking...

Do you get it now? Loot. An aspect that is so fundamental to Dungeons and Dragons. The entire point of there being Dungeons to delve and Dragons to kill is to take their loot.

And you guys have literally created some bizarro-world D&D where thousands and thousands and thousands of adventures are literally exercising their option to not take the loot because it's so bad.

The dragon dies.

The loot chest opens.

And the heroes politely decline.

And worse:
Without declining the chest, on average you will need hundreds of days to get the +5 ring you want (for example), meaning you 'must' buy zen keys to get the gear you want.
And while the game didn't gate gear by zen shop in early mods, made it optional in later mods, now it just became almost mandatory, because the drop chance is so low, you must do anything to increase it and those keys double it.

But even then it would have been ok, if the loot was zero sum or net gain. It can't be that buying a key, running a dungeon and using a key will will turn the entire run to a loss in terms of progress and AD for a player. From this looks, like better not to buy keys and open chests.

So we have a conflict here, we are forced to buy keys, and we are loosing from using the keys. Hamstered.

And thinking that the key change will immediately bring better loot is wishful thinking. And past experience shows the opposite.
So before anyone says that, lets see the loot changes on preview for all the content, then I'll believe.

hanniballa · October 2016

So now what? They'll remove the decline bug and wait to fix the loot tables at a later date? If that's the case then it's unacceptable. You'd be leaving us hanging with no incentive to get a key. Couple all that with the lowered salvage values and running dungeons isn't worth the time. Hell, the whole game wouldn't be worth the time.

You guys backed yourselves into a corner here. You need to drop the update that fixes the keys and at the same time give us a good loot table.

tripsofthrymr · October 2016

micky1p00 said:

It's the fact that we HAD to peek because the loot SUCKED.

That's the bottom line.

I completely agree with you. That's much of what I meant by "ensure that players perceive the change as fair." If you take away peaking, you have to massively improve the loot tables.

Dungeon Key Changes

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