Spamming encounter with no cooldown is broken. Period. it defeat the whole purpose of cooldown itself. If HR is entitled to no cooldown spamming, why not just make all HR encounter powers into At-will in the 1st place? Since u suggest to give it to other tree as well?
This is why i mean to fix the bug and start working from there. Giving it to other tree will make HR evolve around a broken mechanic and sink HR into a more broken class.
You can say 'period' all you want, but it's no substitute for reason. It's still just, like, your opinion, man.
Throwing around the term 'broken' is not helpful. Expressing what you think might be done to make things better is.
And, as I've pointed out, there's no reason to expect 6 of the other 7 classes to suddenly get un-broken. So I'm fine with being broken if we're competitive instead of being broken and not competitive. I really don't care about some nebulous ideal of a non-broken class and am not sure why some other people do, because with one exception they haven't bothered to write it out or define their terms.
I'll put it another way: in 1984 the prupose of Newspeak was to simplify language so that a prole might say, "Big Brother is ungood," but would lack the words to express why he/she thought so and thereby convince others. So, the state and the Party would never be threatened by organized rebellion and never changed.
All you're saying here is 'Encounter spamming is ungood.' But the people watching throught he viewscreen know that your saying so is no threat, because you haven't expressed why, or what you think the ideal alternative to it is. Enjoy your time in Room 101.
We need to be on track and get archer and Combat up to par the players that remember Archer and combat as gods well the were nerfed to oblivion do to broken bugs that made them invincible in PVP. those that remember and miss these days of glory will never be happy no matter what You do and most of them don't even play any more. That's why Dev are trying to fix them to start with and we have had 2 years of under preforming HR class. To do this leave trapper alone adjust the abilities in these 2 trees but move the feats to last 2 places of tree so that you don't get some cross tree builds that become over powered
this is an Opinion NOT a fact swiftness of the fox is being called a bug but tool tip was not clear so others wanting it changed made like it was a bug. These people felt that HR needs big big boost to damage and with SOTF it would never happen because we would be over powered. So a call to change SOTF and big dps change.
this is a Fact Devs admitted trapper was under preforming by small amount!!! So there fore SOTF and Cordons number of monsters hit, should not be classified as bugs these are not issues that will help Archer or Combat HR in any way
MY take I say it was not a bug but acted as intended to give trapper Fluid encounters and if he did not know how to play then it still left him with breaks in between encounters.This is why HR is considered a weak class. Iit takes a long time and Higher IL for build to start flowing much more than any other class. You will find very few HR under 3k getting invited along in Dungeons when can have a GWF Or CW go with 2.5il .
With SOTF and Cordon we had the ability to clear mobs which is what it was designed for but now with nerf to max 5 monsters hit. In sevral dungeons like tia and in VT some places you have as many as 20 monsters on top of and with no encounters left and weak at wills. You now have no successful way to clear them when running an entry level party it will wipe. In boss fights they are mostly 1 on 1 so SWOTF and and cordon still act correctly rotations will have gaps and we only will be hitting 1 boss monster so these 2 things were fine and have no broken abilities to burn the boss down so I rest my case these are not bugs but work as intended.
with existing changes to Damage boost and return SOTF Trapper just needs some boost to AT wills or something to give PVP damage and we are good so return focus to Archer and Combat they are so behind removing aoe 5 cap will go a long way to help and it wont make trapper any more overpowered
thanks Amenar you have been listening so far hope this helps
It is not intended for Trapper to have zero cooldowns. If that was the case, there would just be ONE feat that said reduces all cooldowns to zero. Instead there are feats that reduce them by small percentages.
I don't think that really matters.
People that pick up HR go immediately to trapper for the play style that it has now. If it wasn't initially intended it should be now. They made the class play in a unique and fun way by accident and they should be preserving that instead of nerfing it into the ground.
0
Options
feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
It is not intended for Trapper to have zero cooldowns. If that was the case, there would just be ONE feat that said reduces all cooldowns to zero. Instead there are feats that reduce them by small percentages.
Wrong. HRs have relied on cooldown reductions since mod 2. That's why the Royal Guard armor used to exist. The purpose of the class is to use six encounters instead of three. And this talk of 'zero cooldowns' is nonsense anyway. We have to go through a rotation to get the use out of our cooldown reduction feats. Otherwise, guess what? They still have cooldowns.
0
Options
feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
edited July 2016
Something others have mentioned but not really explained at length is this: A nerf to our cooldown reduction feats is a serious nerf to the dps of those of us using Dread Enchantments. The Dread was - obviously - specifically designed for HRs because nearly all of our damage comes from encounter powers. Therefore, a nerf to cooldown reductions, if it's going to kill the trapper playstyle, should come with either a change to the Dread Enchantment to balance out the lower frequency of encounter power use - that or an option to exchange our dreads for, say, Feytouched or Vorpal enchantments of equal rank (the AH won't be an option because players will quickly realize that a Dread Enchantment is worth far less than before).
In other words, it leads to yet more unforeseen scope creep, and requiring us to redo our enchantments when we were in need of buffs, not nerfs, is an unjust and serious setback.
We need to be on track and get archer and Combat up to par. The players that remember Archer and combat as gods. Well they were nerfed to oblivion do to broken bugs that made them invincible in PVP. those that remember and miss these days of glory will never be happy no matter what You do and most of them don't even play any more. That's why Dev are trying to fix them to start with and we have had 2 years of under preforming HR class. To do this leave trapper alone adjust the abilities in these 2 trees but move the feats to last 2 places of tree so that you don't get some cross tree builds that become over powered
this is an Opinion NOT a fact swiftness of the fox is being called a bug but tool tip was not clear so others wanting it changed made like it was a bug. These people felt that HR needs big big boost to damage and with SOTF it would never happen because we would be over powered. So a call to change SOTF and big dps change.
this is a Fact Devs admitted trapper was under preforming by small amount!!! So there fore SOTF and Cordons number of monsters hit, should not be classified as bugs these are not issues that will help Archer or Combat HR in any way
MY take I say it was not a bug but acted as intended to give trapper Fluid encounters and if he did not know how to play then it still left him with breaks in between encounters.This is why HR is considered a weak class. Iit takes a long time and Higher IL for build to start flowing much more than any other class. You will find very few HR under 3k getting invited along in Dungeons when can have a GWF Or CW go with 2.5il .
With SOTF and Cordon we had the ability to clear mobs which is what it was designed for but now with nerf to max 5 monsters hit. In sevral dungeons like tia and in VT some places you have as many as 20 monsters on top of and with no encounters left and weak at wills. You now have no successful way to clear them when running an entry level party it will wipe. In boss fights they are mostly 1 on 1 so SWOTF and and cordon still act correctly rotations will have gaps and we only will be hitting 1 boss monster so these 2 things were fine and have no broken abilities to burn the boss down so I rest my case these are not bugs but work as intended.
with existing changes to Damage boost and return SOTF Trapper just needs some boost to AT wills or something to give PVP damage and we are good so return focus to Archer and Combat they are so behind removing aoe 5 cap will go a long way to help and it wont make trapper any more overpowered
thanks Amenar you have been listening so far hope this helps
also I forgot we actually have armor from Never winter called Royal guard set that reduced cool downs originally. If trapper was not intended to be reduced in cool downs then why royal guard armor.Why dread enchant which was just introduced and only works off trappers encounters to try to give us some comparative damage increase these 2 things a lone show trapper was as intended
0
Options
hypergorila2Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 73Arc User
On a side note to Swiftness of the fox changes: Some ppl say we need to try it before coming to conclusions... YOU can try this RIGHT NOW on the live server. Just go to The Trade of Blades or Caer-Konig, find one of those isolated testing dummies and start hitting it. Your encounters will only hit one target so you will only proc Swiftness once. Let us know how much time elapses since your first encounter to the moment that they all are in cooldown. I'm pretty sure all experience Trapper HR felt this during dungeons when fighting a boss and all the members of the team are dead. Suddenly there you are, pew pewing the boss with rapid shot. Have you ever tried to kill something on a HR using rapid shot only? I'm pretty sure my full support dps-less gf can kill stuff faster using at wills only and no self buffs...
I'm not trying anything. It's a terrible idea clarify the tool tip because SoTF is necessary as it is to be able stand with the other classes NOT above but with them. I'm sorry if you all are getting out dpsd go kick a ball harder, and maybe drop some money in the game. Try studying the class and learn how to play it. Because as it is there's only a few of us that are even good at the class. Do you think if you have a HR alt that you hardly play you know something about what's best? Any of you that propose this SoTF should be "fixed" in this way are fools. We do not do enough dmg to be waiting on cds and we have some the longest cds of the classes to begin with.
We need to be on track and get archer and Combat up to par. The players that remember Archer and combat as gods. Well they were nerfed to oblivion do to broken bugs that made them invincible in PVP. those that remember and miss these days of glory will never be happy no matter what You do and most of them don't even play any more. That's why Dev are trying to fix them to start with and we have had 2 years of under preforming HR class. To do this leave trapper alone adjust the abilities in these 2 trees but move the feats to last 2 places of tree so that you don't get some cross tree builds that become over powered
this is an Opinion NOT a fact swiftness of the fox is being called a bug but tool tip was not clear so others wanting it changed made like it was a bug. These people felt that HR needs big big boost to damage and with SOTF it would never happen because we would be over powered. So a call to change SOTF and big dps change.
this is a Fact Devs admitted trapper was under preforming by small amount!!! So there fore SOTF and Cordons number of monsters hit, should not be classified as bugs these are not issues that will help Archer or Combat HR in any way
MY take I say it was not a bug but acted as intended to give trapper Fluid encounters and if he did not know how to play then it still left him with breaks in between encounters.This is why HR is considered a weak class. Iit takes a long time and Higher IL for build to start flowing much more than any other class. You will find very few HR under 3k getting invited along in Dungeons when can have a GWF Or CW go with 2.5il .
With SOTF and Cordon we had the ability to clear mobs which is what it was designed for but now with nerf to max 5 monsters hit. In sevral dungeons like tia and in VT some places you have as many as 20 monsters on top of and with no encounters left and weak at wills. You now have no successful way to clear them when running an entry level party it will wipe. In boss fights they are mostly 1 on 1 so SWOTF and and cordon still act correctly rotations will have gaps and we only will be hitting 1 boss monster so these 2 things were fine and have no broken abilities to burn the boss down so I rest my case these are not bugs but work as intended.
with existing changes to Damage boost and return SOTF Trapper just needs some boost to AT wills or something to give PVP damage and we are good so return focus to Archer and Combat they are so behind removing aoe 5 cap will go a long way to help and it wont make trapper any more overpowered
thanks Amenar you have been listening so far hope this helps
also I forgot we actually have armor from Never winter called Royal guard set that reduced cool downs originally. If trapper was not intended to be reduced in cool downs then why royal guard armor.Why dread enchant which was just introduced and only works off trappers encounters to try to give us some comparative damage increase these 2 things a lone show trapper was as intended
You still have your cooldown reduction mechanics and dread enchant is still in game..so whats ur point? Trapper are indeed intended to have a reduced in cool downs mechanics and that, the developer didnt remove?
U seem to be mislead by what are the changes.
For your reference : Also Royal Guard set bonus is not the same as swiftness of the fox. Royal guard armor reduce cooldown based on damage dealt while swiftness base on encounter use. Even with RG set bonus u still can not use fox shift to 100% reset the other stance power as it does not deal damage.
@amenar Swiftness of the Fox: Revert tool tip back and change what it says to what it does on live.
Forestbond: Revert tool tip back and what it says to what it actually does on live.
Plant Growth: No target cap and thats not even a bug. The tooltip says "all enemies" and it has 20' radius AoE.
Aspect of the Serpent: We need it to be able to consume non damaging moves it's crucial to stacking each stance properly. Otherwise we have to use pointless at wills to build them.
**Stop messing with the Trapper playstyle it's not what needs "fixed". We do not do enough dmg to endure cds and be competitive with the top tier classes**
Let's give it 1 more week to see if some "considerable" buffs are planned to be implemented along with this "change" on the Swiftness of the Fox feat. Otherwise if we get none(you are just making 1 class clearly too bad to be chosen to play with(dps gone down the drain no matter even at max item level), the only solution that i can think of as a last resort to this "disaster" that you have come to make us face is this one suggestion, which actually does make a really good point.
Swiftness of the Fox: No longer triggers multiple times when hitting multiple targets.
Feedback: This will only cause HR to underperform even more, but hey... Who approved this change certainly knows more.
Suggestion: Revert Swiftness of the Fox to it's current live state and change the tooltip acordingly. Changing tooltips as been a reliable method used by cryptic to fix bugs, so why not aplly that here?
Also, another suggestion that got flooded over by negative cries and arguements,
When he HR changes were announced I was really looking forward to them and one thing that I really though was going to get adjusted was:
aspect of the serpent.
This is a great class feature, but as is, its very difficult to take the most advantage from it and even some experienced HRs struggle to understand how it works and how to use properly. Aspect of the serpent comes down to building stacks for a stance and getting benefits from said stacks, however one can never have stacks from both stances which causes bad use of it and puts a high burden on players to manage properly.
This feat should get a rework to make it more in line with other class feats that increase damage. In other classes (and pls don’t linch me, i’m not screaming for nerfs), feats that give damage come down to either doing damage to deal more damage or taking damage to deal more damage, which puts aspect of the serpent in a significant disadvantage because to get stacks for a stance u first need to consume the other stance stacks and is only after this that u start getting stacks for the other stance.
My proposition (and I know this is not a "how I would fixe it" thread so sorry in advance) would be to make the serpent stacks work similarly to the stacks from twisted set. When adding to one stance stack (paranoia as analogy) u would remove from the other stance (bloodlust) but always keep a minimum of 1 stack in each stance and having a max of 3 stacks. This would mean that simply having serpent sloted would give a damage buff. Granted that trappers would probably get the most out of it but even for pure archers or combat, just having it slotted would benefit them. And as pure archers or combat builds have cool downs on their encounters i don’t think it would be unreasonable for them to switch stance from time to time, get stacks for their stance of choice with say one or two at wills before dropping their encounters. Pure archers or combat players may not like this but stance switching is the class mechanic and doing it from time to time seems, at least to me, reasonable.
Aspect of the serpent is great, but imho it needs to be adapted to get more in line with the other classes features that give damage boosts and make it a bit easier to use.
And the usual ones that i dont even need to quote, total rework of useless feats like battlehoned and cruel recovery.
(I did not mention aspect of the falcon, twin blade storm, and some others that some people might think are worthless, because i am sure that some people use this and just because for me they are useless, doesnt mean it is for others. With that said, battlehoned and cruel recovery are useless, and i dont know anyone who would ever use these feats. I'm happy to retract this statement if there is one HR out there who finds these feats useful and is currently using it.)
Sorry for my English. It’s not my native language.
Changes in Forestbond and Swiftness of the Fox is a HUGE loss for a Trapper. Those feats allowed us to stay competitive against other striker classes. So these rework look like a huge nerf. I agree that bugs need to be fixed but please don’t ruin our playstyle. Here some suggestions to make situation better:
Reverse changes of Forestbond and upgrade the tooltip. It should be like «-1/2/3/4/5% cooldown on Weak Grasping Roots, -2/4/6/8/10% cooldows on Strong/Ancient Grasping Roots».
SotF multiproccing was definitely a bug and didn’t worked as intended. But to stay competitive with other classes this power should be enhanced a bit. Like 20% or 25% cooldown reduction at rank 5.
Besides those feats now we have to stack Recovery to reduce gaps in our rotations. But for that we must sacrifice our offensive stats (Power, Crit, ArmPen) for Recovery. That’s another EXTREME loss in our DPS. So a possible decision here is to let us gain Recharge Speed or Recovery without exchanging offensive stats for it. To do that you may rework some useless feats like Extra Action or Readied Stance. Here some options:
Make it act like CW’s feat Fight On so it will reduce recharge of encounters. 15-20% at rank 5 would be nice because of our monstrous 15-20 sec CDs.
And/or change these feats to give Recovery stat equal to % of our CURRENT power. Like GWF’s feats that give Power equal to % of Defence, Recovery and ArmPen.
And/or change these feats to give Recovery stat equal to 100% of our Movement stat. That will allow us to stack Movement with Dark enchantments in Utility and will make Shepherd’s Devotion and Artificer’s Persuation/Artificer’s Influence Insignia Bonuses much more profitable. And ofc that will add more diversity in mount’s Equip Powers for Hunter Ranger.
This rework would be beneficial for all trees. Extra Action is T5 Heroic feat and Readied Stance is T1 Paragon feat so everyone could get it.
@amenar Hope that will help you to find a better solution without harming to our class and playstyle. Thanks.
For all trapper who posted, this guys actually got the things right in getting the playstyle back. I'll bump for him here once again, although my personal suggestion for Sotf is 30% reduction at rank 5( testing required ).
0
Options
gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
As many, including BIS Trappers have said, Trapper HR is NOT underperforming on Live at all. With these changes, it might very well be though. Archery and Combat need buffs, Trapper is fine.
Nope. It is ok-ish if you play it to the hilt and with the currently "bugged" SotF. The bugs to Blade Storm and Hawkeye have been fixed (good work Amenar!).
As many people remembered in this thread, cooldown reduction has always been at the core of the ranger (see the Royal Guard armor and the Archer feat that reduced cooldowns on crits). Even in Mod2-Mod3 everything revolved (in PvE at least) around encounter spamming. I remember in Mod2 that I used Rapid Shot as an at-will just to proc the armor cooldown reduction as fast as possible. PvP was a different story (self healing and dots, especially with the Pathfinder).
Honestly I believe that encounter spamming should be preserved on the Trapper, not because it is broken as somebody said, but because it's fun! Starting from Mod2 that is exactly the reason why I liked the ranger, because it plays different from anything else. I tried other games too (Blade and Soul, Black Desert) but it's difficult to find anything as hectic as the trapper or (even better to be honest) the old Archer (Mod2-Mod3). The only thing that gives you a similar feeling is the Summoner in Blade and Soul since you control both yourself and your pet and basically seamlessly rotate your "encounters" and those of the pet.
I understand that SotF in the current status on live is probably, overkill especially on utility powers that hit no matter what you do (Hawkeye is a good example).
My suggestions would be:
- Make SotF a class ability automatically available to all rangers and tone it down to 10% per activation. This will open the potential to improve their rotation to Archer and Combat if they want to go it (meaning that they have to lose some time in the other stance but will improve their cooldowns on their heavy hitting encounters). It will also stress the uniqueness of the ranger as a class with six encounters. - Give Archers an heavy damage stackable multiplier on Aimed Shot everytime they use an encounter, resetting it when Aimed Shot is used. This way we may see again Archers using encounter rotations and then Aimed Shot as a finisher (that would be the Archer finisher in PvP) and it should hit damned hard. - Give Combat a cooldown reduction everytime they activate Flurry. This will bring them towards a different type of rotation that alternates encounters at at-wills. Give them a stackable bonus on their next flurry every time they use an encounter. This way they can decide whether they prefer sustained DPS alternating encounters and flurries or go for a burst with a full encounter rotation followed by an "heavy" flurry (but then facing a cooldown issue). - Heavily buff all at-wills (several times) maybe keeping an eye on Aimed Shot. - Buff the damage increasing feats for Archer and Combat.
In this way we have created a ranged DPS tree and a melee DPS tree.
What to do with the trapper in a game where control is not needed? Let's make control important again.
- Change the effect of Thorned Roots. Instead of dealing damage directly (automatic dots are boring) let's go for: Thorned Roots reduces the target's control resistance by a/b/c/d/e % and increases your damage against the target by v/x/w/y/z . If the target is control immune your damage against it is increased by 2v/2x/2w/2y/2z (in PvE). Thorned Roots reduces the target's control resistance and the target's tenacity by ..... and increases your damage against the target by ...... (in PvP).
- Everytime you activate Master Trapper your cooldowns are reduced by 25% . This will require good timing and not spamming to get the best benefits as Master Trapper can be activated only once every ten seconds. No way to get permadaze anymore with Crushing Roots.
- Replace Swiftness of the Fox with: Bleeding Roots: your Strong Grasping roots increase the damaged taken by the target by 15% for their duration or for 3 seconds against control immune targets. Your Strong Grasping Roots reduce the healing on your target by a/b/c/d/e% (PvP). This will transform the Trapper into a bleeder in PVP. No hard hitting heavy encounters, but reduced healing on target, extra damage and control.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
0
Options
thatsmeaswellMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 60Arc User
What about increasing the proc chance of trappers cunning to 75% or 100% ? In conjunction with forestbond this would effect in a more steady cd reduction to make up for the changes done to swiftness of the fox.
Of course you had to focus even more on crit than you have now but i think this is a more desirable choice than recovery. In addition our at wills could be effectively used for cd reduction, in case that the encounters are on cd.
Furthermore you had to invest something to get your cds which should satisfy those who are of the questionable opinion that trapper was never meant to have no cds.
Best of all, since forestbond and trappers cunning are t3 feats this would also allow some interesting hybrid builds.
1) the class distinctive trait is the root usage, which is definitely the best characteristic of trappers HR but archery and combat do not really rely on them the slightest.
2) the swiftness of the fox nerf hits really hard trappers performances both damage and survivability wise.
3) damage will reach the lowest levels ever reached in pve and in pvp it will be even worst.
4) we definitely make laugh in pvp damage wise indeed
5) we lack any kind of burst.
6) archery and combat damage is still very low and without working on feats nothing will really change.
7) our control got nerfed by swiftness nerf and a couple of bugs with crushing roots...so we can agree our control capabilities coupled with aoe control nerf is not THAT great anymore.
Proposed changes:
- we need at least one source of burst damage on a reliable encounter (binding arrow anyone?)
- Encounter cooldowns could use another slight reduction.
- Oak skin healing is really low. 6k per ticks and 30% of it for allies would really help survivability. Right now on preview it ticks for 1.7k HP (850 HP in pvp -.-) which isnt going to help when i have 170k HP. - - BUFF stamina recharge speed. Right now 45+ seconds are required to refill it.
- ADD IMMUNITY TO DAMAGE WHILE IN FOREST MEDITATION (INSTEAD OF DEFLECT): we are not attacking or doing anything else, let us heal at least.
- Add to roots (each kind of it) a defense debuff component: 10% debuff for 10 seconds which stacks up to 30%. This is around 3-4% buff to damage and would give archery and combat a reason to use roots. I can already see an archer throw 3 hindering shots to reach that cap!
-those same roots should have a healing debuff: like enemy hit by HR roots now heal 50% less for the next 6 seconds. HR damage in pvp should still be subpar but at least we are avoiding the enemy to heal too much, which adds utility to the team and a chance to kill the enemy if outplayed by far.
- a damage buff is however needed all over the place.
- rework BATTLEHONED AND CRUEL RECOVERY. Maybe a reliable class feature with reliable damage. Aspect of the serpent and seeker's vengeance have really low uptime and damage for the requirements they demand. - - fix this BUG: ELVEN BATTLE REDUCES TO 0 (TO MAX 1) THE TICKS OF THORNED ROOTS
overall if these points (all) are fulfilled i can see a nice future for HR even after the switfness nerf. bump is someone agrees, it would really makes me happy
1) the class distinctive trait is the root usage, which is definitely the best characteristic of trappers HR but archery and combat do not really rely on them the slightest.
2) the swiftness of the fox nerf hits really hard trappers performances both damage and survivability wise.
3) damage will reach the lowest levels ever reached in pve and in pvp it will be even worst.
4) we definitely make laugh in pvp damage wise indeed
5) we lack any kind of burst.
6) archery and combat damage is still very low and without working on feats nothing will really change.
Proposed changes:
- we need at least one source of burst damage on a reliable encounter (binding arrow anyone?)
- Encounter cooldowns could use another slight reduction.
- Oak skin healing is really low. 6k per ticks and 30% of it for allies would really help survivability. Right now on preview it ticks for 1.7k HP which isnt going to help when i have 170k HP. - - BUFF stamina recharge speed. Right now 45+ seconds are required to refill it.
- ADD IMMUNITY TO DAMAGE WHILE IN FOREST MEDITATION (INSTEAD OF DEFLECT): we are not attacking or doing anything else, let us heal at least.
- Add to roots (each kind of it) a defense debuff component: 10% debuff for 10 seconds which stacks up to 30%. This is around 3-4% buff to damage and would give archery and combat a reason to use roots. I can already see an archer throw 3 hindering shots to reach that cap!
-those same roots should have a healing debuff: like enemy hit by HR roots now heal 50% less for the next 6 seconds. HR damage is pvp should still be subpar but at least we are avoiding the enemy to heal too much, which adds utility to the team and a chance to kill the enemy if outplayed by far.
- a damage buff is however needed all over the place.
- rework BATTLEHONED AND CRUEL RECOVERY. Maybe a reliable class feature with reliable damage. Aspect of the serpent and seeker's vengeance have really low uptime and damage for the requirements they demand. - - fix this BUG: ELVEN BATTLE REDUCES TO 0 (TO MAX 1) THE TICKS OF THORNED ROOTS
overall if these points (all) are fulfilled i can see a nice future for HR even after the switfness nerf. bump is someone agrees, it would really makes me happy
I am tired of the agenda to NERF SotF. I quit PvP becaues of how broken it is and now the PvPers are in here demanding this NERF to ruin my fun in PvE. Enough with the NERF and revert the change to SotF.
@krondhor you will agree with anyone who proposes the NERF to SotF stays. Do you main a Trapper? Do you play mainly PvP? If you are really concerned with the Archer and Combat HRs why aren't you pushing for upgrades to their powers instead of your relentless attack on SotF?
What is your true agenda? It is obvious to me that improving the HR overall is not what you are interested in.
Regarding Swiftness of the Fox: the interaction with it granting additional effectiveness per target was definitely a bug - and one our engine is prone to, so we're very familiar with it. However, we're also quite happy with the Trapper rotation being very low CD Encounter focused. It is a very different feel from the other specs, and we're good with that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't fix bugs. If fixing it has ruins the way the build functions, we'll look to address that in an intentional way, instead of allowing a bug to persist that has the unintended side-effect of improving them in certain cases.
In cases where you're fighting a single-target, you end up missing out on a large part of the bugged-benefit of that Feat, and that just leaves you in weird cases where sometimes (large fights) you're OP, and sometimes (small fights) you feel weak. And on top of that, it's an interaction that isn't obvious or intuitive, so newer players have no idea what's going on.
While we obviously realize that changing this will have an impact, we need to make the change to evaluate how large the impact is, so we can make adjustments. I think it's likely you'll see further adjustments to Swiftness of the Fox before this change goes live.
I'll be reading through the rest of the feedback, and thank you all again for remembering to keep things civil and constructive.
It is not intended for Trapper to have zero cooldowns. If that was the case, there would just be ONE feat that said reduces all cooldowns to zero. Instead there are feats that reduce them by small percentages.
Wrong. HRs have relied on cooldown reductions since mod 2. That's why the Royal Guard armor used to exist. The purpose of the class is to use six encounters instead of three. And this talk of 'zero cooldowns' is nonsense anyway. We have to go through a rotation to get the use out of our cooldown reduction feats. Otherwise, guess what? They still have cooldowns.
the purpose of the class is to use 6 encounters but not 6 encounters and then another 6 encounters and the gap between them would be just the animation or casting of spells?
1-4 seconds cooldown will not hurt anyone , also you havent tested it out to see... also instead of complaining about that just ask for the BASE DAMAGE TO BE INCREASED. geez
ill say this now that a 1-4 second cooldown does in fact not hurt but kill most hr's. (key word-most/hurts the rest a lot)
Sorry for my English. It’s not my native language.
Changes in Forestbond and Swiftness of the Fox is a HUGE loss for a Trapper. Those feats allowed us to stay competitive against other striker classes. So these rework look like a huge nerf. I agree that bugs need to be fixed but please don’t ruin our playstyle. Here some suggestions to make situation better:
Reverse changes of Forestbond and upgrade the tooltip. It should be like «-1/2/3/4/5% cooldown on Weak Grasping Roots, -2/4/6/8/10% cooldows on Strong/Ancient Grasping Roots».
SotF multiproccing was definitely a bug and didn’t worked as intended. But to stay competitive with other classes this power should be enhanced a bit. Like 20% or 25% cooldown reduction at rank 5.
Besides those feats now we have to stack Recovery to reduce gaps in our rotations. But for that we must sacrifice our offensive stats (Power, Crit, ArmPen) for Recovery. That’s another EXTREME loss in our DPS. So a possible decision here is to let us gain Recharge Speed or Recovery without exchanging offensive stats for it. To do that you may rework some useless feats like Extra Action or Readied Stance. Here some options:
Make it act like CW’s feat Fight On so it will reduce recharge of encounters. 15-20% at rank 5 would be nice because of our monstrous 15-20 sec CDs.
And/or change these feats to give Recovery stat equal to % of our CURRENT power. Like GWF’s feats that give Power equal to % of Defence, Recovery and ArmPen.
And/or change these feats to give Recovery stat equal to 100% of our Movement stat. That will allow us to stack Movement with Dark enchantments in Utility and will make Shepherd’s Devotion and Artificer’s Persuation/Artificer’s Influence Insignia Bonuses much more profitable. And ofc that will add more diversity in mount’s Equip Powers for Hunter Ranger.
This rework would be beneficial for all trees. Extra Action is T5 Heroic feat and Readied Stance is T1 Paragon feat so everyone could get it.
@amenar Hope that will help you to find a better solution without harming to our class and playstyle. Thanks.
For all trapper who posted, this guys actually got the things right in getting the playstyle back. I'll bump for him here once again, although my personal suggestion for Sotf is 30% reduction at rank 5( testing required ).
Regarding Swiftness of the Fox: the interaction with it granting additional effectiveness per target was definitely a bug - and one our engine is prone to, so we're very familiar with it. However, we're also quite happy with the Trapper rotation being very low CD Encounter focused. It is a very different feel from the other specs, and we're good with that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't fix bugs. If fixing it has ruins the way the build functions, we'll look to address that in an intentional way, instead of allowing a bug to persist that has the unintended side-effect of improving them in certain cases.
In cases where you're fighting a single-target, you end up missing out on a large part of the bugged-benefit of that Feat, and that just leaves you in weird cases where sometimes (large fights) you're OP, and sometimes (small fights) you feel weak. And on top of that, it's an interaction that isn't obvious or intuitive, so newer players have no idea what's going on.
While we obviously realize that changing this will have an impact, we need to make the change to evaluate how large the impact is, so we can make adjustments. I think it's likely you'll see further adjustments to Swiftness of the Fox before this change goes live.
I'll be reading through the rest of the feedback, and thank you all again for remembering to keep things civil and constructive.
This is very diplomatic and it sounds like you knew about the "bug" for a considerable amount of time. It is very disappointing you let it persist for so long. I personally spent a considerable amount of time and resources on my Trapper so whatever fix you are planning I hope you do not ruin it. I also want to point out as a Trapper I spent a considerable amount of money making a Dread enchantment specifically for the Trapper build that does not utilize at-wills. Please do not pull a bait-an-switch on us now. While I appreciate the work you are doing if you kill this play style you will lose me as a customer. The play style of the Trapper is the only reason I stayed with this game for so long.
0
Options
gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
Regarding Swiftness of the Fox: the interaction with it granting additional effectiveness per target was definitely a bug - and one our engine is prone to, so we're very familiar with it. However, we're also quite happy with the Trapper rotation being very low CD Encounter focused. It is a very different feel from the other specs, and we're good with that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't fix bugs. If fixing it has ruins the way the build functions, we'll look to address that in an intentional way, instead of allowing a bug to persist that has the unintended side-effect of improving them in certain cases.
In cases where you're fighting a single-target, you end up missing out on a large part of the bugged-benefit of that Feat, and that just leaves you in weird cases where sometimes (large fights) you're OP, and sometimes (small fights) you feel weak. And on top of that, it's an interaction that isn't obvious or intuitive, so newer players have no idea what's going on.
While we obviously realize that changing this will have an impact, we need to make the change to evaluate how large the impact is, so we can make adjustments. I think it's likely you'll see further adjustments to Swiftness of the Fox before this change goes live.
I'll be reading through the rest of the feedback, and thank you all again for remembering to keep things civil and constructive.
Thanks amenar!
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
@amenar So if this must be fixed how can we improve it back to as good as it was and as intended without taking away offensive stats for recovery? None of us are willing to loose those stats, and none of the top dps classes I know even run recovery. If they do most run less than 4k of it usually form deafualt gear unintentionally or use the Disk. Recovery really isn't helpful because of it's interaction with our feats even on a single target. Whenever I was doing soloing often times I found myself waiting for cds even with 8k+ recovery even with the current feats. Using Hindering, and Constricting go ham long enough and the stuf starts gliching waiting for 4 secs reguardless of Recovery. So I just put the Power back on and SUPRISE it was still the same amount of time to wait! So I had to Ghost so I wouldn't get one shotted then resume rotation until it acted up again. Mind you I'm 4k with all the fancy stuff.
Comments
Throwing around the term 'broken' is not helpful. Expressing what you think might be done to make things better is.
And, as I've pointed out, there's no reason to expect 6 of the other 7 classes to suddenly get un-broken. So I'm fine with being broken if we're competitive instead of being broken and not competitive. I really don't care about some nebulous ideal of a non-broken class and am not sure why some other people do, because with one exception they haven't bothered to write it out or define their terms.
I'll put it another way: in 1984 the prupose of Newspeak was to simplify language so that a prole might say, "Big Brother is ungood," but would lack the words to express why he/she thought so and thereby convince others. So, the state and the Party would never be threatened by organized rebellion and never changed.
All you're saying here is 'Encounter spamming is ungood.' But the people watching throught he viewscreen know that your saying so is no threat, because you haven't expressed why, or what you think the ideal alternative to it is. Enjoy your time in Room 101.
A few things to point out.
We need to be on track and get archer and Combat up to par the players that remember Archer and combat as gods well the were nerfed to oblivion do to broken bugs that made them invincible in PVP. those that remember and miss these days of glory will never be happy no matter what You do and most of them don't even play any more. That's why Dev are trying to fix them to start with and we have had 2 years of under preforming HR class. To do this leave trapper alone adjust the abilities in these 2 trees but move the feats to last 2 places of tree so that you don't get some cross tree builds that become over powered
this is an Opinion NOT a fact
swiftness of the fox is being called a bug but tool tip was not clear so others wanting it changed made like it was a bug. These people felt that HR needs big big boost to damage and with SOTF it would never happen because we would be over powered. So a call to change SOTF and big dps change.
this is a Fact
Devs admitted trapper was under preforming by small amount!!! So there fore SOTF and Cordons number of monsters hit, should not be classified as bugs these are not issues that will help Archer or Combat HR in any way
MY take
I say it was not a bug but acted as intended to give trapper Fluid encounters and if he did not know how to play then it still left him with breaks in between encounters.This is why HR is considered a weak class. Iit takes a long time and Higher IL for build to start flowing much more than any other class. You will find very few HR under 3k getting invited along in Dungeons when can have a GWF Or CW go with 2.5il .
With SOTF and Cordon we had the ability to clear mobs which is what it was designed for but now with nerf to max 5 monsters hit. In sevral dungeons like tia and in VT some places you have as many as 20 monsters on top of and with no encounters left and weak at wills. You now have no successful way to clear them when running an entry level party it will wipe. In boss fights they are mostly 1 on 1 so SWOTF and and cordon still act correctly rotations will have gaps and we only will be hitting 1 boss monster so these 2 things were fine and have no broken abilities to burn the boss down so I rest my case these are not bugs but work as intended.
with existing changes to Damage boost and return SOTF Trapper just needs some boost to AT wills or something to give PVP damage and we are good so return focus to Archer and Combat they are so behind removing aoe 5 cap will go a long way to help and it wont make trapper any more overpowered
thanks Amenar you have been listening so far hope this helps
People that pick up HR go immediately to trapper for the play style that it has now. If it wasn't initially intended it should be now. They made the class play in a unique and fun way by accident and they should be preserving that instead of nerfing it into the ground.
In other words, it leads to yet more unforeseen scope creep, and requiring us to redo our enchantments when we were in need of buffs, not nerfs, is an unjust and serious setback.
also I forgot we actually have armor from Never winter called Royal guard set that reduced cool downs originally. If trapper was not intended to be reduced in cool downs then why royal guard armor.Why dread enchant which was just introduced and only works off trappers encounters to try to give us some comparative damage increase these 2 things a lone show trapper was as intended
Some ppl say we need to try it before coming to conclusions...
YOU can try this RIGHT NOW on the live server.
Just go to The Trade of Blades or Caer-Konig, find one of those isolated testing dummies and start hitting it. Your encounters will only hit one target so you will only proc Swiftness once.
Let us know how much time elapses since your first encounter to the moment that they all are in cooldown.
I'm pretty sure all experience Trapper HR felt this during dungeons when fighting a boss and all the members of the team are dead. Suddenly there you are, pew pewing the boss with rapid shot.
Have you ever tried to kill something on a HR using rapid shot only?
Contact:@EmeraldG1173
Main: EMERALD LEGEND
U seem to be mislead by what are the changes.
For your reference : Also Royal Guard set bonus is not the same as swiftness of the fox. Royal guard armor reduce cooldown based on damage dealt while swiftness base on encounter use. Even with RG set bonus u still can not use fox shift to 100% reset the other stance power as it does not deal damage.
Edit : http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Armor_of_the_Royal_Guard
Swiftness of the Fox: Revert tool tip back and change what it says to what it does on live.
Forestbond: Revert tool tip back and what it says to what it actually does on live.
Plant Growth: No target cap and thats not even a bug. The tooltip says "all enemies" and it has 20' radius AoE.
Aspect of the Serpent: We need it to be able to consume non damaging moves it's crucial to stacking each stance properly. Otherwise we have to use pointless at wills to build them.
**Stop messing with the Trapper playstyle it's not what needs "fixed". We do not do enough dmg to endure cds and be competitive with the top tier classes**
Contact:@EmeraldG1173
Main: EMERALD LEGEND
Also, another suggestion that got flooded over by negative cries and arguements, And the usual ones that i dont even need to quote, total rework of useless feats like battlehoned and cruel recovery.
(I did not mention aspect of the falcon, twin blade storm, and some others that some people might think are worthless, because i am sure that some people use this and just because for me they are useless, doesnt mean it is for others. With that said, battlehoned and cruel recovery are useless, and i dont know anyone who would ever use these feats. I'm happy to retract this statement if there is one HR out there who finds these feats useful and is currently using it.)
As many people remembered in this thread, cooldown reduction has always been at the core of the ranger (see the Royal Guard armor and the Archer feat that reduced cooldowns on crits). Even in Mod2-Mod3 everything revolved (in PvE at least) around encounter spamming. I remember in Mod2 that I used Rapid Shot as an at-will just to proc the armor cooldown reduction as fast as possible. PvP was a different story (self healing and dots, especially with the Pathfinder).
Honestly I believe that encounter spamming should be preserved on the Trapper, not because it is broken as somebody said, but because it's fun! Starting from Mod2 that is exactly the reason why I liked the ranger, because it plays different from anything else. I tried other games too (Blade and Soul, Black Desert) but it's difficult to find anything as hectic as the trapper or (even better to be honest) the old Archer (Mod2-Mod3). The only thing that gives you a similar feeling is the Summoner in Blade and Soul since you control both yourself and your pet and basically seamlessly rotate your "encounters" and those of the pet.
I understand that SotF in the current status on live is probably, overkill especially on utility powers that hit no matter what you do (Hawkeye is a good example).
My suggestions would be:
- Make SotF a class ability automatically available to all rangers and tone it down to 10% per activation. This will open the potential to improve their rotation to Archer and Combat if they want to go it (meaning that they have to lose some time in the other stance but will improve their cooldowns on their heavy hitting encounters). It will also stress the uniqueness of the ranger as a class with six encounters.
- Give Archers an heavy damage stackable multiplier on Aimed Shot everytime they use an encounter, resetting it when Aimed Shot is used. This way we may see again Archers using encounter rotations and then Aimed Shot as a finisher (that would be the Archer finisher in PvP) and it should hit damned hard.
- Give Combat a cooldown reduction everytime they activate Flurry. This will bring them towards a different type of rotation that alternates encounters at at-wills. Give them a stackable bonus on their next flurry every time they use an encounter. This way they can decide whether they prefer sustained DPS alternating encounters and flurries or go for a burst with a full encounter rotation followed by an "heavy" flurry (but then facing a cooldown issue).
- Heavily buff all at-wills (several times) maybe keeping an eye on Aimed Shot.
- Buff the damage increasing feats for Archer and Combat.
In this way we have created a ranged DPS tree and a melee DPS tree.
What to do with the trapper in a game where control is not needed? Let's make control important again.
- Change the effect of Thorned Roots. Instead of dealing damage directly (automatic dots are boring) let's go for: Thorned Roots reduces the target's control resistance by a/b/c/d/e % and increases your damage against the target by v/x/w/y/z . If the target is control immune your damage against it is increased by 2v/2x/2w/2y/2z (in PvE). Thorned Roots reduces the target's control resistance and the target's tenacity by ..... and increases your damage against the target by ...... (in PvP).
- Everytime you activate Master Trapper your cooldowns are reduced by 25% . This will require good timing and not spamming to get the best benefits as Master Trapper can be activated only once every ten seconds. No way to get permadaze anymore with Crushing Roots.
- Replace Swiftness of the Fox with: Bleeding Roots: your Strong Grasping roots increase the damaged taken by the target by 15% for their duration or for 3 seconds against control immune targets. Your Strong Grasping Roots reduce the healing on your target by a/b/c/d/e% (PvP). This will transform the Trapper into a bleeder in PVP. No hard hitting heavy encounters, but reduced healing on target, extra damage and control.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Of course you had to focus even more on crit than you have now but i think this is a more desirable choice than recovery. In addition our at wills could be effectively used for cd reduction, in case that the encounters are on cd.
Furthermore you had to invest something to get your cds which should satisfy those who are of the questionable opinion that trapper was never meant to have no cds.
Best of all, since forestbond and trappers cunning are t3 feats this would also allow some interesting hybrid builds.
first of all a couple of assumptions:
1) the class distinctive trait is the root usage, which is definitely the best characteristic of trappers HR but archery and combat do not really rely on them the slightest.
2) the swiftness of the fox nerf hits really hard trappers performances both damage and survivability wise.
3) damage will reach the lowest levels ever reached in pve and in pvp it will be even worst.
4) we definitely make laugh in pvp damage wise indeed
5) we lack any kind of burst.
6) archery and combat damage is still very low and without working on feats nothing will really change.
7) our control got nerfed by swiftness nerf and a couple of bugs with crushing roots...so we can agree our control capabilities coupled with aoe control nerf is not THAT great anymore.
Proposed changes:
- we need at least one source of burst damage on a reliable encounter (binding arrow anyone?)
- Encounter cooldowns could use another slight reduction.
- Oak skin healing is really low. 6k per ticks and 30% of it for allies would really help survivability. Right now on preview it ticks for 1.7k HP (850 HP in pvp -.-) which isnt going to help when i have 170k HP.
-
- BUFF stamina recharge speed. Right now 45+ seconds are required to refill it.
- ADD IMMUNITY TO DAMAGE WHILE IN FOREST MEDITATION (INSTEAD OF DEFLECT): we are not attacking or doing anything else, let us heal at least.
- Add to roots (each kind of it) a defense debuff component: 10% debuff for 10 seconds which stacks up to 30%. This is around 3-4% buff to damage and would give archery and combat a reason to use roots. I can already see an archer throw 3 hindering shots to reach that cap!
-those same roots should have a healing debuff: like enemy hit by HR roots now heal 50% less for the next 6 seconds.
HR damage in pvp should still be subpar but at least we are avoiding the enemy to heal too much, which adds utility to the team and a chance to kill the enemy if outplayed by far.
- a damage buff is however needed all over the place.
- rework BATTLEHONED AND CRUEL RECOVERY. Maybe a reliable class feature with reliable damage. Aspect of the serpent and seeker's vengeance have really low uptime and damage for the requirements they demand.
-
- fix this BUG: ELVEN BATTLE REDUCES TO 0 (TO MAX 1) THE TICKS OF THORNED ROOTS
overall if these points (all) are fulfilled i can see a nice future for HR even after the switfness nerf.
bump is someone agrees, it would really makes me happy
@krondhor you will agree with anyone who proposes the NERF to SotF stays. Do you main a Trapper? Do you play mainly PvP? If you are really concerned with the Archer and Combat HRs why aren't you pushing for upgrades to their powers instead of your relentless attack on SotF?
What is your true agenda? It is obvious to me that improving the HR overall is not what you are interested in.
What is your answer krondhor?
Regarding Swiftness of the Fox: the interaction with it granting additional effectiveness per target was definitely a bug - and one our engine is prone to, so we're very familiar with it. However, we're also quite happy with the Trapper rotation being very low CD Encounter focused. It is a very different feel from the other specs, and we're good with that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't fix bugs. If fixing it has ruins the way the build functions, we'll look to address that in an intentional way, instead of allowing a bug to persist that has the unintended side-effect of improving them in certain cases.
In cases where you're fighting a single-target, you end up missing out on a large part of the bugged-benefit of that Feat, and that just leaves you in weird cases where sometimes (large fights) you're OP, and sometimes (small fights) you feel weak. And on top of that, it's an interaction that isn't obvious or intuitive, so newer players have no idea what's going on.
While we obviously realize that changing this will have an impact, we need to make the change to evaluate how large the impact is, so we can make adjustments. I think it's likely you'll see further adjustments to Swiftness of the Fox before this change goes live.
I'll be reading through the rest of the feedback, and thank you all again for remembering to keep things civil and constructive.
Contact:@EmeraldG1173
Main: EMERALD LEGEND
Please do not pull a bait-an-switch on us now. While I appreciate the work you are doing if you kill this play style you will lose me as a customer. The play style of the Trapper is the only reason I stayed with this game for so long.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Contact:@EmeraldG1173
Main: EMERALD LEGEND