I think some people need to be reminded that the Class is Hunter Ranger, not Trapper. Trapper is supposed to a spec path, only a part of what the class is can be, not the be-all, end-all that everyone treats it as.
Archer and Combat need to be brought up to the level of Trappers, pronto. and changing Archery and Combat skills and feats should be the majority of the changes we see here.
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited July 2016
Paragon tree usually means feats (trapper/archery/combat) not path (stormwarden/pathfinder).
I'd say GWF is just as bad an offender for that sin as HR though. Destroyer or bust, in their case. OP justice is almost the same thing as trapper; the cooldown reductions are too good compared to everything else. But I think SW is getting there for multiple trees being viable, depending what happens with templocks later.
@macjae you obviously, from this and other posts in this thread are bias towards your own main class and have an ulterior motive/agenda and I suggest you just move on and leave nerfing the class alone. Your motive is obvious.
HR is severely lacking in PVP and has been subpar in PVE considering their lower survivabilty. They have higher cool downs than any class including their dailies. The trapper tree has seen an overall nerf with plant growth and with swiftness and they haven't had any buffs to help them in PVP or PVE. Revising swiftness to be 20%-25% from 15% would be good for this tree and not detrimental to the other trees and should be seriously considered! The other alternative would be to seriously increase our at-will damage.
And how, pray tell, would changing Swiftness to be 20-25% be better than giving an overall 20-30% cooldown reduction to all powers, as @macjae has suggested (not directly on that post, but in past posts)?
You're effectively looking at the same cd reduction from now, except giving a much-needed boost to all trees rather than just Trapper. Swiftness is a very strong feat as it is, even post-fix, so I don't think boosting it is necessary. Rather than harping on one particular issue with one tree, why don't we solve an issue plaguing the HR class as a whole? HR cooldowns are rather long, so it'd be beneficial to all trees to do an overall cooldown reduction.
I have yet to see any change to single target burst damage to help in PVP/boss fights. Currently trapper HR excels at AOE damage and with nerf to plant growth and swiftness feat they will see a large net decrease in dps.
When it comes to single target damage they are lacking and need burst damage. Boar charge is a good encounter this could be added to . Give us single target burst damage encounters/dailies that we can use and be effective in boss / PVP fights.
Boar charge is currently not used because it doesn't have enough damage in the melee version (along with the long pause at the end) and the ranged version 2% DR is meh. The cost to payoff ratio sucks. In fact HRs have alot of encounters that have a cost to payoff ratio that sucks. They are either to difficult to use with to little damage or take to long with to little damage. The cost to payoff ratio of our encounters need to be increased. The HRs rotation will not be changed by the changes we have seen and it's solely because the cost to payoff ratio is still to high! In PVE dungeons we can't stand there waiting for our encounters to fire unless the payoff is enough and then it's iffy. In PVP it's the same thing except it's more difficult because you need to be on the node.
In PVP, HRs need to be very mobile, because all the tanky slow classes are some how faster and have very quick gap closers. Mobility is key to survivability in PVE and PVP. In fact it wouldn't be to much to ask for an increase in speed for the HR. GWFs, GFs, TRs, and SWs move faster than HRs, and GWFs and GFs have armor that should be slowing them down. They move entirely too fast for a heavy armor based class that can deal 100x the amount of single target damage as the HR. Against equal ilvl players we don't have a chance in hell and it needs to be improved. Just as a for instance, when I 1v1 a gwf of equal gear (ie Icydrake), I can't even touch him and I'm dead within seconds. Both of us are BIS toons, but yet he somehow moves faster, hits harder, is much more tanky.
HRs are all about crit damage. They have alot of feats when it comes to crit, but yet nothing when it comes to crit severity. HR should have a slight base increase to their base crit severity.
You're getting into a rather complex realm here.
The problem with PvP atm is the mess of insignias, boons, enchants and so on that's basically interfering with the overall class balance. Things like Elven Battle breaks entire builds, such as the current (or you could argue previous) Trapper perma-daze/thorned roots spec. While the perma-daze is a stupid concept, the way Cryptic countered it by bringing out Elven Battle also broke Thorned Roots, which only ticks once on EB users, resulting in a massive damage loss. While EB destroying the build may or may not have been intentional, the fact is that Thorned Roots has been proven to be the majority of damage for most HRs in PvP, and even without elven, it's not nearly enough. To compound the issue, the meta in PvP atm is burst damage as you mentioned, because of the aforementioned insignias and other things i.e. too much healing. Swiftness in its current live state is a bit counter-productive to that because it's a DPS heavy mechanic rather than burst heavy.
I think it really comes down to a few issues (in PvP):
a) lack of damage b) lack of cc
The latter issue is there because of elven battle, and short of boosting control bonus to absurd levels and/or removing/toning down elven battle entirely, I don't think there's much we can really ask for. Prones/knockbacks are the strongest and only real viable CC in the game right now short of TR's Courage Breaker (which is an entirely different issue), and the only prone HR has is Boar Charge which, again, as you said, is very lackluster. The duration of the prone is very short for the amount of time it takes to execute the skill as well. I don't think boosting it to the point where it's always in our rotation like Bull Charge is for GFs is a good idea; I think it's probably better overall to make it a very good option, but not a necessity to play. Having variations in rotations is a good thing. Case in point, giving Boar Charge both damage and cc might just make it absolutely necessary, so I think perhaps increasing it to be an actual strong cc skill would be a better idea - increasing the prone duration and removing the root/pause at the end of the animation so you can actually follow up with additional skills. Change Boar Hide to not have stacks removed with non-active skills (i.e. dot ticks), and give it a base bonus that still persists even after the stacks are removed because let's face it, it's not exactly difficult to remove Boar stacks. Perhaps a 20% damage reduction on incoming attacks (not defense, actual damage reduction) for 10-15 seconds, along with 5% DR per stack of Boar, removed when hit with an active attack. Or change the functionality to the reverse: for the next 10-15 seconds, every time you are hit you gain a Boar stack, for a maximum of 5 stacks.
As for the lack of damage that HR has, well, primarily damage in PvP was already from Thorned Roots, even in PvE it is an extremely large portion of HR damage, because the base damage HRs have from encounters and at-wills is weak, besides a few select options like Cordon (which can be difficult to land in PvP). To compound that issue, the Tenacity stat on gear in recent mods has begun to reach levels where crit damage has started to do less damage than non-crits, more notably on toons that aren't at DR cap. Classes where you already only do 20% effectiveness on both non-crits and crits will obviously see more damage on crits, but regardless, it's still a prevalent issue that's part of the reason why HRs have become so weak. So in that respect, boosting crit severity isn't really going to help; you're better off asking for a damage bonus/buff since that'll give not only a better general boost, but help both PvE and PvP.
Also um, HRs pretty much don't die to anything except GFs and TRs on live right now in a 1v1, so the issue you mentioned against a GWF is not really true. GWF certainly hits harder, but being tankier is a bit of a misnomer. Even if you die (if at all), dying "within seconds" would be an issue of build/skill, not class in that case.
In PVP it's not lack of damage it's lack of burst damage. When running ATC (and this is before insignia's as well as after) I will most often have done the most damage / dps in the match and yet still perform poorly.
Trapper HRs currently run two builds in PVP right now. Crit based build or deflect based build. I run a crit based build with dread enchant & shadow clad and need to stack crit & crit severity. The deflect base build uses a feytouch and eleven battle enchant. The latter is the better of the two because of the crit depression in PVP. The feytouch's power debuff is much more powerful and the build doesn't need to stack crit and can use it solely on power. I run with 170K+ HP and when I get caught by a BIS GWF they take 90% of that.
HRs die to alot more than GFs and TRs, but what you are saying is that if I built my HR as a trapper deflect build using a feytouch I would do better. Doesn't that discourage diversity even more? If you are a HR not only do you need to use the trapper tree and the three specific encounters, but you need to use the feytouch enchant also. HRs do have it bad! We only have one choice or you will suck.
I have one of these builds also not BIS, but low 3k ilvl and it's very painful to play pvp at this lvl and for that matter PVE without bondings.
on a different topic. I'm just eyeballing my feat trees on Live (PS4), with no real high-level game experience with Rangers....and to my endgame-virgin eyes, am I correct in assuming that the Capstones for Archery and Combat are ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE compared to the Capstone for Trapper?
Trapper - Instant 20% AP, +30% Damage, +60% Control Duration.
Combat - your next at-will....hits again?
Archery - 40% extra damage on one target for 20 seconds. can't be canceled, can only have one at a time.
there doesn't seem to be much comparison there.
am I missing something? are the Combat/Archery capstones going to be changed to something useful in Mod10?
I see that the problem is going both ways. HRs trying to pretend the class is useless on Live just to get overpowered, when it is anything but useless. And, non-HRs pushing a nerf or limiting agenda to boost the class they main.
Trapper as is is far from useless those who say so are working the system. In PVE we can hold our own and be valuable to any party. Once over around 2850il but we are weak at low ILs. Also trapper is by far hardest class to play If you don't know how to run a trapper build or make a mistake and miss your in for a long day. We were fine but needed PVP help for damage is really all we needed not all these nerfs
the problems now are 3 losses of damage caused from
loss of 20 foot area of effect to all in area to 5 max hits on cordon and others realy big loss in tia and dungeon runs like CN and others
loss of encounters in SOTF and forest bond effects. this is a loss damage from less encounters
loss of damage on a un thought of nerf to dread which only works on damage from encounters it is way to early in a new enchant to nerf it. when it was working as intended.
wait is there a nerf to dread enchant?
when you have long cool downs in between encounters you will have to use other attacks at wills or dailies dread will not work on any but encounters you will lose damage less crit encounters and less over all encounters per run
Roots are already affected by dread's crit severity. These crybabies want their cake and eat it at the same time.
I just listed what will change with current changes to trapper when they said we were fine and just need a buff then every one else started on Trapper not other way a round. when HR are turning on HR things are going in wrong direction I will not post here again til changes have been tested. This is the hate for the trapper class from left over days of old broken HR. XBOX and PS4 never had this so they wont understand why hatred for Trapper the only class that most of them play they are ones getting shafted Ara
The only reason Dread works so well for HRs is because it procs on our root dmg, if you don't take the roots into account, then the numbers of every HR would be total carp, now if you buff the base dmg of the class, then Archery, Combat and maybe even Trapper (with a nerfed SotF) could be overall better, and more importantly, we could end up having options!! Ridiculous right?
0
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited July 2016
Predator definitely needs something else other than just 50% damage on one target. About one of the crappiest things you could ask for in PVE aside for lostmauth runs.
Same goes for Flurry. With the current at-will damage it won't cut it.
Flurry capstone could also buff your at-will damage by a flat 50%. Predator is just meh in it's current form.
Would be nice to see something other than a GWF or TR that could fill that melee role. If combat had some DPS behind it there's nothing it has that really has any edge over those two.
I main a 4.2k HR on Xbox. I primarily play PVE as I find the PVP in neverwinter to be lacking and that particular part of the community to be toxic. While I don't have the analytic tools to dissect the numbers on the game I do have a years worth of experience running this character. Let's start with the basic flawed premise of changes to the HR. People overwhelmingly choose trapper over archery or combat. If we applied this same logic racial bonuses should be revisited as most hard core PVP players choose a halfling regardless of class. That being said DPS appears to be what most that play this class want to focus on and trapper currently delivers. Nothing is stopping people from playing as archers or even with a combat build currently. I played both archery and combat build and found them to be boring. I stayed a trapper and continued to play neverwinter due to the frantic fluid playstyle afforded by swiftness of the fox. Nerfing the majority of hunters to allow others to try something else seems silly. If we apply this same rationale we should rework GWFs due to many running the Lazalia build. As for making changes specifically to satisfy PVP players I wonder why as PVP seems to only account for a small but vocal group of players.
I main a 4.2k HR on Xbox. I primarily play PVE as I find the PVP in neverwinter to be lacking and that particular part of the community to be toxic. While I don't have the analytic tools to dissect the numbers on the game I do have a years worth of experience running this character. Let's start with the basic flawed premise of changes to the HR. People overwhelmingly choose trapper over archery or combat. If we applied this same logic racial bonuses should be revisited as most hard core PVP players choose a halfling regardless of class. That being said DPS appears to be what most that play this class want to focus on and trapper currently delivers. Nothing is stopping people from playing as archers or even with a combat build currently. I played both archery and combat build and found them to be boring. I stayed a trapper and continued to play neverwinter due to the frantic fluid playstyle afforded by swiftness of the fox. Nerfing the majority of hunters to allow others to try something else seems silly. If we apply this same rationale we should rework GWFs due to many running the Lazalia build. As for making changes specifically to satisfy PVP players I wonder why as PVP seems to only account for a small but vocal group of players.
Because thats part of the game too? Do you wonder why minor racial community have rights too? a real pve game would never allow bondings and would never remove dungeons for 1 year +. that small minority appreciates all the game components. so since we are here lets try to adjust what needs to be adjusted, otherwise lets not call it "class balance" but "losing time".
I see everyone referring to this "frantic and fluid" special playstyle that only the Trapper seems to have. as if Trappers are the only ones who ever have access to or use the class mechanic of swapping weapons from melee to ranged.
is this actually the case?
0
patcherrkmMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 127Arc User
I main a 4.2k HR on Xbox. I primarily play PVE as I find the PVP in neverwinter to be lacking and that particular part of the community to be toxic. While I don't have the analytic tools to dissect the numbers on the game I do have a years worth of experience running this character. Let's start with the basic flawed premise of changes to the HR. People overwhelmingly choose trapper over archery or combat. If we applied this same logic racial bonuses should be revisited as most hard core PVP players choose a halfling regardless of class. That being said DPS appears to be what most that play this class want to focus on and trapper currently delivers. Nothing is stopping people from playing as archers or even with a combat build currently. I played both archery and combat build and found them to be boring. I stayed a trapper and continued to play neverwinter due to the frantic fluid playstyle afforded by swiftness of the fox. Nerfing the majority of hunters to allow others to try something else seems silly. If we apply this same rationale we should rework GWFs due to many running the Lazalia build. As for making changes specifically to satisfy PVP players I wonder why as PVP seems to only account for a small but vocal group of players.
PvE will never challenge as much as PvP will. Now I do both, but let's not pretend that owning in PvE is an accomplishment. I've been in runs where we've killed Orcus in 7 seconds. It took no skill whatsoever. PvP is where skills should really be tested. You wouldn't know this, but if a 4.2k BiS HR (specd every available way and with the best PvP gear available) goes up against virtually any other BiS player/class, the HR loses. I'm not saying that the HR wont do some rotations or look fancy for a moment or maybe a minute or more. But you simply won't have enough burst damage to outdo the various self healing. In the meantime even if you have all the opponents self healing on your HR too, he can likely kill you. Other classes have burst damage, making your healing useless. Your dead in seconds. TR execute. GF one rotate you. CW's will blow you up. GWF's will destroy you swiftly. etc. The HR PvP community might be a minority voice. Maybe if things were more balanced, it would be a much bigger voice because more people would actually be playing. Just a thought.
on a different topic. I'm just eyeballing my feat trees on Live (PS4), with no real high-level game experience with Rangers....and to my endgame-virgin eyes, am I correct in assuming that the Capstones for Archery and Combat are ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE compared to the Capstone for Trapper?
Trapper - Instant 20% AP, +30% Damage, +60% Control Duration.
Combat - your next at-will....hits again?
Archery - 40% extra damage on one target for 20 seconds. can't be canceled, can only have one at a time.
there doesn't seem to be much comparison there.
am I missing something? are the Combat/Archery capstones going to be changed to something useful in Mod10?
Bingo.... you have been playing the game for 2mins and already you can see exactly what I have been screaming about the last few days. The capstones for Archery and Combat needed major changes and buffs then we take it from there, not destroy an entire classes path and hundreds of peoples characters, then have to re-work and buff a gazillion things.
I am baffled at what is going on.
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
@wdj40 Then, enlightened me, how would you make an HR competent in PvP? And don't come with the same as always arguments that PvP is broken and w/e, because is a part of the game you are playing, and with the state that PvP is atm, any class can outlast and/or kill an equally geared HR (even with the same guild boons and insignias), and HRs can only kill under geared ppl.
Someone already posted a really good solution back in page FOUR, so please go back and read it, everyone here wants a better Hunter Ranger (I hope), but a better and more balanced HR doesn't mean that we only need a ton of buffs, because that will only get us a really serious nerf later on.
@macjae if you don't understand why it's fluid and frantic, you must play combat, archer, or you don't play an HR at all.
@wdj40 the weak capstones has been mentioned throughout the thread. Amenar has made slight buffs but it won't help.
"fluid and frantic" isn't necessarily the exclusive domain of a Trapper, is it?
even at level 40, with no cooldown-reducing feats yet, combat seems pretty "fluid and frantic" to me. that's what I like about the class. I'm constantly swapping my stances, jumping back and forth from point-blank to just-outside-of-melee range, constantly going through all 6 of my encounters (AND all 4 of my atwills), never staying the same place always mobile, dashing everywhere like a madman. only difference is that I have to use some at-wills cause I don't have the no-cooldown feats yet.
@jmadfour You will see what Ajax was talking about once you reach 70 and start running dungeons. Go look up Sume's HR videos on YouTube, his videos show how HRs are fluid.
@jmadfour You will see what Ajax was talking about once you reach 70 and start running dungeons. Go look up Sume's HR videos on YouTube, his videos show how HRs are fluid.
will do. but this is HRs as a whole, correct, not JUST only Trappers?
or does HR = Trapper in this case?
0
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Combat as a whole could revolve around it's at-wills, similar as a GWF destroyer. In pvp it's encounters would serve more as gap closers and extra dodges.
With a few fixes
Boar charge no longer halting the user on use to allow them to enable a combo with them more for a pvp purpose. Give it a slightly lower CD so a combat HR can more reliably get off a gushing wound or w/e.
Marauder's rush/escape making the HR immune to damage and CC during their use for both pvp and pve.
Wild medicine getting fixed and working on total HP instead of base HP from level.
Battle crazed giving deflect instead of LS so it's doesn't make combat immortal in PVE with DPS buffs and give some synergy for wild medicine and some survivability in pvp.
Combat as a whole could revolve around it's at-wills, similar as a GWF destroyer. In pvp it's encounters would serve more as gap closers and extra dodges.
With a few fixes
Boar charge no longer halting the user on use to allow them to enable a combo with them more for a pvp purpose. Give it a slightly lower CD so a combat HR can more reliably get off a gushing wound or w/e.
Marauder's rush/escape making the HR immune to damage and CC during their use for both pvp and pve.
Wild medicine getting fixed and working on total HP instead of base HP from level.
Battle crazed giving deflect instead of LS so it's doesn't make combat immortal in PVE with DPS buffs and give some synergy for wild medicine and some survivability in pvp.
that would certainly make it unique in the HR portfolio.
In PVP it's not lack of damage it's lack of burst damage. When running ATC (and this is before insignia's as well as after) I will most often have done the most damage / dps in the match and yet still perform poorly.
Trapper HRs currently run two builds in PVP right now. Crit based build or deflect based build. I run a crit based build with dread enchant & shadow clad and need to stack crit & crit severity. The deflect base build uses a feytouch and eleven battle enchant. The latter is the better of the two because of the crit depression in PVP. The feytouch's power debuff is much more powerful and the build doesn't need to stack crit and can use it solely on power. I run with 170K+ HP and when I get caught by a BIS GWF they take 90% of that.
HRs die to alot more than GFs and TRs, but what you are saying is that if I built my HR as a trapper deflect build using a feytouch I would do better. Doesn't that discourage diversity even more? If you are a HR not only do you need to use the trapper tree and the three specific encounters, but you need to use the feytouch enchant also. HRs do have it bad! We only have one choice or you will suck.
I have one of these builds also not BIS, but low 3k ilvl and it's very painful to play pvp at this lvl and for that matter PVE without bondings.
Okay, I'm sorry, but your issue there is your build.
The meta for PvP HR has been power since module 6 because as you said, tenacity was increased to the point where crit damage is roughly the same as non-crit, if not less. Build diversity in PvP is a bit irrevelant to you using a suboptimal build because every high level PvPer will be running whatever is optimal, not necessarily what they really want to run, with a few exceptions. If you run a suboptimal build then don't expect to compete.
I'm just going to put it out there that I'm not saying that HR isn't weak in PvP, just that you're weaker than you should be because you're gimping yourself by using a suboptimal build. There's not much diversity in PvP when it comes to high-end PvP. If you're pugging against low ilvl scrubs or something, run whatever because you're basically killing chickens in that case. Pretty sure you can oneshot/twoshot mid-low ilvls atm with Archery/Aimed Shot if you have enough gear and a specific setup. WoF/Longstrider/etc. + Aimed Shot against people with 30-35% or less tenacity and mid-low DR would probably get one- or twoshot tbh, considering I could hit 250k+ Aimed Shots on Preview last night on dummies, which is still pretty much 100k on players at that level of tenacity.
And yeah, sorry, I did mean burst damage; should have clarified that in my post. It doesn't really make much difference when people outheal your DoTs. There's so much healing in the current meta that DoTs become irrelevant since most classes will just outheal it and your DPS is all for naught. It's why classes like GF and TR are so strong in the current meta, because they have/had the strongest burst in the game which allows them to kill classes before they can heal up the damage (if not outright oneshot them), and hence why HR is very weak in the meta. Archery ideally should be the meta if buffs are done correctly because that's the path which typically has the most burst/damage. Trying to test out damage on preview w/ bugged Cordon is really annoying, though.
PvP has a huge issue with gear gap atm, unfortunately, which has been increasing since the start of the game honestly. It'll always be painful to play at mid/low ilvls because of how much the difference is, as you've said.
Anyway, that's going a bit off-topic. The Swiftness of the Fox patch isn't up on preview yet, I think, so still waiting to test it out and I don't know how long that'll be. As I said, I don't think buffing Swiftness is necessary right now, but doing an overall reduction of HR cooldowns by 20-30% would really help. And that's kinda the same as giving Swiftness a buff anyway, since you'll end up with lower cooldowns regardless.
Also on the topic of that:
FEEDBACK: some HR animations are still too long. Hawk Shot is one example, the cast time is ridiculous; it's almost longer than Aimed Shot, and being CC'd would put it on cooldown.
FEEDBACK: bear trap is still useless, also has an issue where it won't activate unless the enemy is in the middle area of the trap; it should activate as soon as someone stands on any part of it. The damage portion is also still terrible. Bleed does 6-8k damage when my Aimed Shot does 120k.
I think some people need to be reminded that the Class is Hunter Ranger, not Trapper. Trapper is supposed to a spec path, only a part of what the class is can be, not the be-all, end-all that everyone treats it as.
Archer and Combat need to be brought up to the level of Trappers, pronto. and changing Archery and Combat skills and feats should be the majority of the changes we see here.
i treat trapper as a control hr not a " not the be-all, end-all that everyone treats it as." and no one would have treated it like its so important if they didn't fix a bug and no one is giving any information as to how to improve the hr back to where is was besides a few people.
i agree changing skills and feats is the most important way to improve the hr.
@jmadfour You will see what Ajax was talking about once you reach 70 and start running dungeons. Go look up Sume's HR videos on YouTube, his videos show how HRs are fluid.
will do. but this is HRs as a whole, correct, not JUST only Trappers?
or does HR = Trapper in this case?
hmm... no i guess not. hr are hunter rangers---archery is for bow use only and staying far away from enemies/comabt is for up close encounters and fighting melee/trapper is for both up close and far away and meant for control.
the goal at the start of this was to severely buff archery and combat while buffing up trapper a small amount. now they nerfed trapper to bring it closer to archery and combat and they also fixed a trapper feat that was bugged.
some players have posted their ideas how to fix trapper as a whole but only a select few have really gotten into it and given really good ideas, i try to comment if i agree or disagree.
i agree with you that that hr as a whole needs to be buffed up and talked about. archery and combat can just get damage buff but trapper needs its control attacks looked at.
so i just did a live dungeon run in epic cragmire crypts
was looking at dps charts and noticed that someone was really low on dps.
cw with 2.1k item lvl did 50k damage gf with 2.3k item lvl did 31k damage hr with 2.7k item lvl did 30k damage dc with 2.4k item lvl did 18k damage
i asked the hr what his build was and he replied pathfinder, though i didn't see any hunters teamwork or careful attack through the entire run. he didn't get close to any fight, so i am assuming he is a full range build which now makes sense why he was near the bottom in dps. he had really good gear too compared to the lower item lvls he was wearing full purples andj some legendary artifact. the second place dps cw wit h2.1k item lvl had almost full blue gear on with a head piece boots and the shirt/pants and an artifact that were purple. so pretty much a full purple gear wearing hr with a legend artifact got out dpsed by a almost full blue gear wearing cw oh forgot to mention the hr also had a legendary ring (one).
now if i sat back the entire run and did nothing, i am pretty sure the hr's damage would be higher but not higher then the control wizard, maybe the tank.
and if anyone is wondering what place i made, i easily made 1st place and i didn't even try the entire epic cragmire crpyts run, it felt too easy to me, though i did die the most and ran like an idiot trying to pull stuff left and right and tank it for the fun of the run. i am an hr trapper (tanky/support healer) build, my item lvl is 2.8k and i did 169k damage throughout the run... if i tried to dps the entire run i probably could have made 200k in paingiver, but the run felt too easy. but if i made more dps then the hr archer with 2.7k item lvl would have been below the healer in damage; i am fairly sure at least.
this is a live dungeon and the only reason i am posting this is to inform those who don't know just how bad archery is in live, it may be off topic so sorry.
0
gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
New patch is up/ Enjoy testing!
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
0
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Comments
Archer and Combat need to be brought up to the level of Trappers, pronto. and changing Archery and Combat skills and feats should be the majority of the changes we see here.
I'd say GWF is just as bad an offender for that sin as HR though. Destroyer or bust, in their case. OP justice is almost the same thing as trapper; the cooldown reductions are too good compared to everything else. But I think SW is getting there for multiple trees being viable, depending what happens with templocks later.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Trapper HRs currently run two builds in PVP right now. Crit based build or deflect based build. I run a crit based build with dread enchant & shadow clad and need to stack crit & crit severity. The deflect base build uses a feytouch and eleven battle enchant. The latter is the better of the two because of the crit depression in PVP. The feytouch's power debuff is much more powerful and the build doesn't need to stack crit and can use it solely on power. I run with 170K+ HP and when I get caught by a BIS GWF they take 90% of that.
HRs die to alot more than GFs and TRs, but what you are saying is that if I built my HR as a trapper deflect build using a feytouch I would do better. Doesn't that discourage diversity even more? If you are a HR not only do you need to use the trapper tree and the three specific encounters, but you need to use the feytouch enchant also. HRs do have it bad! We only have one choice or you will suck.
I have one of these builds also not BIS, but low 3k ilvl and it's very painful to play pvp at this lvl and for that matter PVE without bondings.
Trapper - Instant 20% AP, +30% Damage, +60% Control Duration.
Combat - your next at-will....hits again?
Archery - 40% extra damage on one target for 20 seconds. can't be canceled, can only have one at a time.
there doesn't seem to be much comparison there.
am I missing something? are the Combat/Archery capstones going to be changed to something useful in Mod10?
Same goes for Flurry. With the current at-will damage it won't cut it.
Flurry capstone could also buff your at-will damage by a flat 50%. Predator is just meh in it's current form.
Would be nice to see something other than a GWF or TR that could fill that melee role. If combat had some DPS behind it there's nothing it has that really has any edge over those two.
a real pve game would never allow bondings and would never remove dungeons for 1 year +.
that small minority appreciates all the game components.
so since we are here lets try to adjust what needs to be adjusted, otherwise lets not call it "class balance" but "losing time".
is this actually the case?
I am baffled at what is going on.
Alts :
Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Member of Q-Snipe
@wdj40 the weak capstones has been mentioned throughout the thread. Amenar has made slight buffs but it won't help.
Character: Vendetta
Someone already posted a really good solution back in page FOUR, so please go back and read it, everyone here wants a better Hunter Ranger (I hope), but a better and more balanced HR doesn't mean that we only need a ton of buffs, because that will only get us a really serious nerf later on.
even at level 40, with no cooldown-reducing feats yet, combat seems pretty "fluid and frantic" to me. that's what I like about the class. I'm constantly swapping my stances, jumping back and forth from point-blank to just-outside-of-melee range, constantly going through all 6 of my encounters (AND all 4 of my atwills), never staying the same place always mobile, dashing everywhere like a madman. only difference is that I have to use some at-wills cause I don't have the no-cooldown feats yet.
Character: Vendetta
or does HR = Trapper in this case?
With a few fixes
Boar charge no longer halting the user on use to allow them to enable a combo with them more for a pvp purpose. Give it a slightly lower CD so a combat HR can more reliably get off a gushing wound or w/e.
Marauder's rush/escape making the HR immune to damage and CC during their use for both pvp and pve.
Wild medicine getting fixed and working on total HP instead of base HP from level.
Battle crazed giving deflect instead of LS so it's doesn't make combat immortal in PVE with DPS buffs and give some synergy for wild medicine and some survivability in pvp.
that would certainly make it unique in the HR portfolio.
The meta for PvP HR has been power since module 6 because as you said, tenacity was increased to the point where crit damage is roughly the same as non-crit, if not less. Build diversity in PvP is a bit irrevelant to you using a suboptimal build because every high level PvPer will be running whatever is optimal, not necessarily what they really want to run, with a few exceptions. If you run a suboptimal build then don't expect to compete.
I'm just going to put it out there that I'm not saying that HR isn't weak in PvP, just that you're weaker than you should be because you're gimping yourself by using a suboptimal build. There's not much diversity in PvP when it comes to high-end PvP. If you're pugging against low ilvl scrubs or something, run whatever because you're basically killing chickens in that case. Pretty sure you can oneshot/twoshot mid-low ilvls atm with Archery/Aimed Shot if you have enough gear and a specific setup. WoF/Longstrider/etc. + Aimed Shot against people with 30-35% or less tenacity and mid-low DR would probably get one- or twoshot tbh, considering I could hit 250k+ Aimed Shots on Preview last night on dummies, which is still pretty much 100k on players at that level of tenacity.
And yeah, sorry, I did mean burst damage; should have clarified that in my post. It doesn't really make much difference when people outheal your DoTs. There's so much healing in the current meta that DoTs become irrelevant since most classes will just outheal it and your DPS is all for naught. It's why classes like GF and TR are so strong in the current meta, because they have/had the strongest burst in the game which allows them to kill classes before they can heal up the damage (if not outright oneshot them), and hence why HR is very weak in the meta. Archery ideally should be the meta if buffs are done correctly because that's the path which typically has the most burst/damage. Trying to test out damage on preview w/ bugged Cordon is really annoying, though.
PvP has a huge issue with gear gap atm, unfortunately, which has been increasing since the start of the game honestly. It'll always be painful to play at mid/low ilvls because of how much the difference is, as you've said.
Anyway, that's going a bit off-topic. The Swiftness of the Fox patch isn't up on preview yet, I think, so still waiting to test it out and I don't know how long that'll be. As I said, I don't think buffing Swiftness is necessary right now, but doing an overall reduction of HR cooldowns by 20-30% would really help. And that's kinda the same as giving Swiftness a buff anyway, since you'll end up with lower cooldowns regardless.
Also on the topic of that:
FEEDBACK: some HR animations are still too long. Hawk Shot is one example, the cast time is ridiculous; it's almost longer than Aimed Shot, and being CC'd would put it on cooldown.
FEEDBACK: bear trap is still useless, also has an issue where it won't activate unless the enemy is in the middle area of the trap; it should activate as soon as someone stands on any part of it. The damage portion is also still terrible. Bleed does 6-8k damage when my Aimed Shot does 120k.
i agree changing skills and feats is the most important way to improve the hr.
hr are hunter rangers---archery is for bow use only and staying far away from enemies/comabt is for up close encounters and fighting melee/trapper is for both up close and far away and meant for control.
the goal at the start of this was to severely buff archery and combat while buffing up trapper a small amount.
now they nerfed trapper to bring it closer to archery and combat and they also fixed a trapper feat that was bugged.
some players have posted their ideas how to fix trapper as a whole but only a select few have really gotten into it and given really good ideas, i try to comment if i agree or disagree.
i agree with you that that hr as a whole needs to be buffed up and talked about. archery and combat can just get damage buff but trapper needs its control attacks looked at.
was looking at dps charts and noticed that someone was really low on dps.
cw with 2.1k item lvl did 50k damage
gf with 2.3k item lvl did 31k damage
hr with 2.7k item lvl did 30k damage
dc with 2.4k item lvl did 18k damage
i asked the hr what his build was and he replied pathfinder, though i didn't see any hunters teamwork or careful attack through the entire run. he didn't get close to any fight, so i am assuming he is a full range build which now makes sense why he was near the bottom in dps. he had really good gear too compared to the lower item lvls he was wearing full purples andj some legendary artifact. the second place dps cw wit h2.1k item lvl had almost full blue gear on with a head piece boots and the shirt/pants and an artifact that were purple.
so pretty much a full purple gear wearing hr with a legend artifact got out dpsed by a almost full blue gear wearing cw
oh forgot to mention the hr also had a legendary ring (one).
now if i sat back the entire run and did nothing, i am pretty sure the hr's damage would be higher but not higher then the control wizard, maybe the tank.
and if anyone is wondering what place i made, i easily made 1st place and i didn't even try the entire epic cragmire crpyts run, it felt too easy to me, though i did die the most and ran like an idiot trying to pull stuff left and right and tank it for the fun of the run.
i am an hr trapper (tanky/support healer) build, my item lvl is 2.8k and i did 169k damage throughout the run... if i tried to dps the entire run i probably could have made 200k in paingiver, but the run felt too easy. but if i made more dps then the hr archer with 2.7k item lvl would have been below the healer in damage; i am fairly sure at least.
this is a live dungeon and the only reason i am posting this is to inform those who don't know just how bad archery is in live,
it may be off topic so sorry.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80