At this point, I'd just like to remind people that it has not been established that the way swiftness works now is a bug. The tooltip for that feat makes absolutely no reference to how it should work with multiple targets.
"Your Melee encounter powers shorten the cooldown of your Ranged encounter powers by 3/6/9/12/15%. Your Ranged encounter powers shorten the cooldown of your Melee encounter powers by 3/6/9/12/15%."
Describing it as a bug is nothing more than a matter of opinion, a belief that it should work another way. It's also very loaded language, because it implies that something is broken as the underlying premise to this discussion, when that has not been established. And once you've won the battle to describe something as broken, the only sensible course of action is to fix it, right?
Not that I expect to change anyone's mind in the opposing camp on this issue, but look at the justifications for claiming that swiftness is a bug. So far we've had nothing more reasoned than 'it's obvious', 'classes shouldn't be able to spam encounter powers', 'it's broken' etc. While these may be articles of faith to some of you, that doesn't make them facts.
Those statements are nothing more than value judgements from people who have a particular view of how the game should work. They are not facts. Using that sort of language to discuss the problem is just an attempt to claim a legitimacy for their position that its supporters are otherwise unable to provide. That is because their position is actually just one opinion in a field of other equally legitimate opinions.
If swiftness did not work as it currently does, the trapper path would be just as uncompetitive as combat and archery currently are. If anything, that implies to me that the way swiftness is working is right, not wrong. The existing version of the trapper is a build which many players, judging by the feedback in this thread, enjoy playing. It's also an effective build without being an overpowered one. So in those senses it's not broken at all, in fact it is working quite well. It would only be broken if it were performing unusually badly or too well, or if it was being avoided by players beacause it was no fun to play.
There have been some efforts to make out that amount of cooldown reduction swiftness gives is 'overpowered' or 'stupendously powerful' but again those are simply value judgements that have no meaning outside of the context of how effective the encounter powers are themselves. Unless the encounter powers themselves are too effective, saying they can be used too often is meaningless. As things are, the cooldown reduction is allowing trappers to put out a competitive amount of damage compared to other classes.
There is no reason why classes should all be the same in terms of how relatively powerful their at wills, encounter powers and dailies are to each other, not any reason why a rotation should be required to include the use of all of those powers for best results. At wills can be staples for one class, but only situationally useful for another. That gives some interesting variation in playstyles, adding some flavour to the game, which is not a bad thing. It's already a feature of the game that there are differences like this between classes and builds. What matters here is the outcome.
Despite what we've been told by some, there are in fact a whole lot of other possible solutions to the imbalance between paths. The higher level feats and staple encounter powers for archery and combat could be improved to make up the difference in damage output. Equivalent cooldown reduction could be made available to the underperforming styles, by either replacing a less useful feat in those trees or even just moving swiftness down in the trapper tree to tier 3 or below (which was rayrdan's suggestion, I think) so it could be purchased by any build.
It'll be up to the developers to make this decision, but I'd recommend two issues be very carefully considered before any final changes are locked in.
* Do you have time to rebuild the class from the ground up, including large boots to damage from all powers, or would you prefer to make targetted fixes to underperforming areas? Wouldn't it be better to try these targetted fixes first and evaluate the results, before committing to a rebuild with all of the changes and testing that would entail? Do you want to risk breaking a functional build on the say-so of just a handful of players?
It seems to me the time you could devote to a rebuild with an uncertain outcome would be better spent on addressing real problems with other classes. If the simpler fixes do not lead to good results for combat and archery, a ground-up rebuild could be reconsidered later.
* How will the changes be received by your customers? By that I mean the majority of your customers actually still playing the class, not a minority with a fringe view of how they would prefer things, plus some agitators who primarily play other classes that are only in this discussion to further their own interests, and a few uninformed new players who drank the 'swiftness is bugged' kool-aid without knowing any better.
I'm sure you're aware of this, but I'm going to repeat it anyway; people spend a lot of time and/or money building characters in this game. If you are going to make changes that affect your customers they need to be for a good reason and have a good outcome. There is no evidence that the adjusting this feat is going to lead to a better outcome; in fact, at this stage the data we have suggests it will make things significantly worse unless a whole raft of other changes are made simply for the sake of getting back to where we are now.
The patch is not even up, and people are making assumptions how hard new fix will affect HRs. Test it and give feedback, these wild assumptions of dying HRs will benefit no one. Someone even posted the wilds how he respecced (down graded Swiftness points and gave up stats) and the HR was ****, come on people, this is not the way, test first then you have solid info on what is going on with the class.
+1 please guys if you want to improve hr's test them and give info that is useful, so that the developers can improve hr's before the next mod comes out. theirs no room to complain about whats done, so keep moving forward and lets fix the next problem. if recovery is the next problem then suggest a good idea on how to fix it, either by lowering our cooldowns or changing feats to affect our cooldowns.
Just a friendly reminder from the moderation team.
Please stay calm, engage the developers with some degree of respect, and please focus on the changes at hand. This is a process, and it's only been a little more than a week. We still have 3 more weeks until Module 10 launches, so instead of declaring the Ranger dead and gone, please keep up with the constructive. But that being said, we'll continue to prune any posts from this thread that focus on flaming, trolling, threatening the devs or otherwise unproductive so that the developers can focus on posts by those who are making an effort to balance and improve the Ranger.
At this point, I'd just like to remind people that it has not been established that the way swiftness works now is a bug. The tooltip for that feat makes absolutely no reference to how it should work with multiple targets.
"Your Melee encounter powers shorten the cooldown of your Ranged encounter powers by 3/6/9/12/15%. Your Ranged encounter powers shorten the cooldown of your Melee encounter powers by 3/6/9/12/15%."
Describing it as a bug is nothing more than a matter of opinion, a belief that it should work another way. It's also very loaded language, because it implies that something is broken as the underlying premise to this discussion, when that has not been established. And once you've won the battle to describe something as broken, the only sensible course of action is to fix it, right?
Not that I expect to change anyone's mind in the opposing camp on this issue, but look at the justifications for claiming that swiftness is a bug. So far we've had nothing more reasoned than 'it's obvious', 'classes shouldn't be able to spam encounter powers', 'it's broken' etc. While these may be articles of faith to some of you, that doesn't make them facts.
Those statements are nothing more than value judgements from people who have a particular view of how the game should work. They are not facts. Using that sort of language to discuss the problem is just an attempt to claim a legitimacy for their position that its supporters are otherwise unable to provide. That is because their position is actually just one opinion in a field of other equally legitimate opinions.
If swiftness did not work as it currently does, the trapper path would be just as uncompetitive as combat and archery currently are. If anything, that implies to me that the way swiftness is working is right, not wrong. The existing version of the trapper is a build which many players, judging by the feedback in this thread, enjoy playing. It's also an effective build without being an overpowered one. So in those senses it's not broken at all, in fact it is working quite well. It would only be broken if it were performing unusually badly or too well, or if it was being avoided by players beacause it was no fun to play.
There have been some efforts to make out that amount of cooldown reduction swiftness gives is 'overpowered' or 'stupendously powerful' but again those are simply value judgements that have no meaning outside of the context of how effective the encounter powers are themselves. Unless the encounter powers themselves are too effective, saying they can be used too often is meaningless. As things are, the cooldown reduction is allowing trappers to put out a competitive amount of damage compared to other classes.
There is no reason why classes should all be the same in terms of how relatively powerful their at wills, encounter powers and dailies are to each other, not any reason why a rotation should be required to include the use of all of those powers for best results. At wills can be staples for one class, but only situationally useful for another. That gives some interesting variation in playstyles, adding some flavour to the game, which is not a bad thing. It's already a feature of the game that there are differences like this between classes and builds. What matters here is the outcome.
Despite what we've been told by some, there are in fact a whole lot of other possible solutions to the imbalance between paths. The higher level feats and staple encounter powers for archery and combat could be improved to make up the difference in damage output. Equivalent cooldown reduction could be made available to the underperforming styles, by either replacing a less useful feat in those trees or even just moving swiftness down in the trapper tree to tier 3 or below (which was rayrdan's suggestion, I think) so it could be purchased by any build.
It'll be up to the developers to make this decision, but I'd recommend two issues be very carefully considered before any final changes are locked in.
* Do you have time to rebuild the class from the ground up, including large boots to damage from all powers, or would you prefer to make targetted fixes to underperforming areas? Wouldn't it be better to try these targetted fixes first and evaluate the results, before committing to a rebuild with all of the changes and testing that would entail? Do you want to risk breaking a functional build on the say-so of just a handful of players?
It seems to me the time you could devote to a rebuild with an uncertain outcome would be better spent on addressing real problems with other classes. If the simpler fixes do not lead to good results for combat and archery, a ground-up rebuild could be reconsidered later.
* How will the changes be received by your customers? By that I mean the majority of your customers actually still playing the class, not a minority with a fringe view of how they would prefer things, plus some agitators who primarily play other classes that are only in this discussion to further their own interests, and a few uninformed new players who drank the 'swiftness is bugged' kool-aid without knowing any better.
I'm sure you're aware of this, but I'm going to repeat it anyway; people spend a lot of time and/or money building characters in this game. If you are going to make changes that affect your customers they need to be for a good reason and have a good outcome. There is no evidence that the adjusting this feat is going to lead to a better outcome; in fact, at this stage the data we have suggests it will make things significantly worse unless a whole raft of other changes are made simply for the sake of getting back to where we are now.
Thanks.
As i mention, the real meaning behind the tooltip can be only explain by the developer and they already clarify by removing the multi target proc in the patch notes. It is clearly not an opinion.
Also there is simpler way to get back ur full rotation than asking to give u back a broken mechanics. Like increase the cooldown reduction given by swiftness? Its not that hard.
Tested out the changes to trapper. This is quite a huge change. While not opposed to the nerf of cooldowns I feel like the process they used to do this is failing.
We have been hearing for almost a year that they are taking their time to evaluate the classes and didn't want to make any big changes like 3 mods ago. Ok so fast forward to now, they have been internally testing these changes for a while now. It has been said that HR was underperforming as a striker in pve and pvp (dev blog). So they introduce all these changes to other two paths that have been pretty much received with a big "meh"
Now, 3 weeks till launch, they are introducing a HUGE change to the the path most HRs use. I don't think this change was very thought out as it wasn't included in the initial patch notes or dev blog. I think this was a last minute change that was not tested.
What were the biggest complaints about HR? low survivability, low burst damage. Devs said that their damage wasn't good in dung either so Ill add it. Now what was fixed? 30% more dodge... My HR on preview is now doing less damage, which leads to less survivability. I just tested in Well of dragons.
If this is how striker damage is suppose to be, are we going to see a major nerf coming to GWF damage? I hope not but how can you leave one and take out the other...
Is this how the other balance changes are going to go? 6 months of internal testing then you put on preview and people (who main other classes) start driving the nerf train?
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patcherrkmMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 127Arc User
That is so not true. I have seen ACTs and many many runs showing Trapper to be overpowered for being a control tree. A lot of Tiamat and Edemo runs end with HR with Paingiver. Trapper is just fine in PVE.
they were doing that with a bugged skill blade storm. now blade storm is fixed according to the new patch notes. now that wont happen again. so try reading the patch notes and understanding how people were doing that damage. test it out. they also broke hawkeye and that will be fixed too.
As i mention, the real meaning behind the tooltip can be only explain by the developer and they already clarify by removing the multi target proc in the patch notes. It is clearly not an opinion.
Also there is simpler way to get back ur full rotation than asking to give u back a broken mechanics. Like increase the cooldown reduction given by swiftness? Its not that hard.
All we know is they have made a change to swiftness for the sake of, wait for it, testing. The fact that a temporary change has been made on a test server does not 'prove' that swiftness is 'broken' at all.
That change may have been made without understanding how central swiftness is to one build, and how it could also be used to solve problems with other builds. Or it may have been done with perfect knowledge just for the sake of evaluating the results for the build and the community's reaction.
And if you do not see the pointlessness of changing how swiftness procs so it doesn't fully refresh encounters, but then making other changes like adjusting cooldowns individually and/or changing the refresh rate so the powers can refresh instantly after all, I don't really know what to say to you.
This just seems like more evidence that a ) some of you are so fixated on the word 'broken' that you are unable to see the forest for the trees, and b) you have no concept of prioritisation and effective use of time in a working environment.
bugs need to be fixed obviously all three feat trees should be viable. to me this should obvious.
archery - range - massive dps - good mobility while dishing out that range dps. mediocre control combat - melee dps - massive amounts - good mobility while dishing out the dps. little to no control trapper - hybrid dps - good amounts of dps - great mobility - great control
The trapper tree has all the control, it should have the least dps! Also just change the combat capstone. no more stupid at will swing ****. our at wills are pathetic. the combat capstone should give more overall damage than the trapper capstone since the trapper incolved control and ap generation and is pretty much always up.
+1 i use my hr not for dps and i still come out on top in paingiver, now don't think i am joking cause i will leave a link below stating proof of my build; but i play my hr like a tank. i use mobility, survival from control, and heals from oak skin to stay alive, i also use life steal for small heals. now i do run overall stats, meaning i use all kind of stats, but in the end trapper is meant for control and mobility, archers need to be mobile to and so do combat. so decrease the animation of powers will fix our mobility problem. up the damage of at will as trappers don't need nor should be using those. improve the feat trees so they match the meaning of the class .....make the archery tree do more damage while in range stance and up damage based on distance and don't let the distance keep the hr form team buffs in dungeons or pvp. .....make the combat tree have more deflect/deflect severity and make it completely mobile as being on your toes is what hunter rangers are about and combat hr's. make their tree better when in melee stance .............for range tree make a feat that increases range powers and decreases melee powers, that way you can buff the rangers with more damage while not thinking the melee will be stronger too they are meant to stay away make them do that by weakening melee .............same thing for combat, make their melee stronger as the cost of range being weakened as for trappers to fix them simple allow them to control more with dazes and roots. make their feats root more often and have the roots apply daze with crushing roots. have their roots do damage over time even to immune enemies (if enemy is immune increase damage but don't remove the dot) that way trappers can be useful against bosses and certain players that are or become immune.
now i don't know a lot about combat tree cause i really only like archery and trapper and i can say that i agree with the person i quoted about the basis on a hunter in each tree.
As i mention, the real meaning behind the tooltip can be only explain by the developer and they already clarify by removing the multi target proc in the patch notes. It is clearly not an opinion.
Also there is simpler way to get back ur full rotation than asking to give u back a broken mechanics. Like increase the cooldown reduction given by swiftness? Its not that hard.
All we know is they have made a change to swiftness for the sake of, wait for it, testing. The fact that a temporary change has been made on a test server does not 'prove' that swiftness is 'broken' at all.
That change may have been made without understanding how central swiftness is to one build, and how it could also be used to solve problems with other builds. Or it may have been done with perfect knowledge just for the sake of evaluating the results for the build and the community's reaction.
And if you do not see the pointlessness of changing how swiftness procs so it doesn't fully refresh encounters, but then making other changes like adjusting cooldowns individually and/or changing the refresh rate so the powers can refresh instantly after all, I don't really know what to say to you.
This just seems like more evidence that a ) some of you are so fixated on the word 'broken' that you are unable to see the forest for the trees, and b) you have no concept of prioritisation and effective use of time in a working environment.
Thanks.
So..like i say many time..u want a mechanic that let u hit the same 2 button providing 100% uptime buff at max stack? i couldnt think of anything more broken..
i suggest u to look back at my past post ( page 17) to truely understand my point..sry..i m tired of repeating
Both bear trap and ambush are counterproductive and cannot play any technical role in the game. That's where pathfinder is royally screwed as I doubt the DEVs have any amount of time to design a brand new encounter.
Ambush does have a chance of being reworked into something, or you have a Christmas sack of bear traps on you and can scatter a dozen on the field at once.
+1 ambush does need some reworking and i like your idea of bear trap scattering them, though that might be hard to do in the game mechanics.
You and your followers convinced @amenar to destroy hundreds of peoples hard work and investment across 3 platforms. Are you going to be the one to deliver the news to all the new PS4 players that like the prenerf Trapper?
as a new PS4 player, I'd like to think that most of us over on this side will be smart enough to understand that basing your entire existence on a broken passive(broken as in not functioning the way it is described) that will eventually be fixed isn't something that should be done.
as I can't use the test server I'm following these changes here, since I have decided to main a HR, mostly due to the mixed melee/range playstyle that is apparently the Trapper. I'm hoping that I can make a Trapper that is not solely dependent on Thorned Roots though. that is my eventual hope. I'd really like to use Serpents Bite instead.
it sounds to me like there is a faction of people who understand that you cannot fix whatever is wrong with the class, without fixing the broken mechanic. or that they realize that the broken mechanic WILL be fixed no matter what, and are moving on to trying to suggest beneficial changes, taking this into account.
and then there is a faction of people who don't want the broken mechanic fixed for any reason, even if it leads to fixes for the rest of the class, but rather they want the entire class built around the broken mechanic. and since the latter is obviously not going to happen, they are throwing a temper tantrum about it.
neither of these may be the case, but that is just how it APPEARS, from an outside (new PS4 player) perspective, reading this thread.
If you read this thread all the way through you will find that SotF is not broken. It was WAI according to the tool tip. The NERF crowd is trying to convince the community it is broken and succeeded in convincing @amenar who is working this "re-balancing" that SotF is broken.
Bottom line is this: I will leave and so will others if this NERF makes it live. We were told there would be no NERFs. After Colgate everyone said give Cryptic a chance, they learned their lesson. Then I also held on to hope when the Steel Breeze change was removed. Although now it looks like a NERF to the Trapper tree was the way Cryptic planned to make the other trees viable all along.
Personally from a business standpoint I would not NERF approximately 80% of my HR customers, that is bad for revenue generation and future growth. The data that we saw from the Devs clearly showed that most HRs run the Trapper spec. Consider the impact of the bad press and word of mouth from a large segment of players on revenue.
BTW Where is the "Greatest Trapper of All Time"? Well they no longer play Neverwinter. Just look through the posts! The person I am referring to admitted they no longer play.
i feel sad to lose such a great player too.
their was no real need to nerf the trapper tree since its barely viable in pve why not nerf the encounter fox shift instead; simple the people had said over and over that this tree feat was broken when really it was fairly decent sure if your going to nerf it, make it somewhat manageable; don't force us to slot recovery. or give a trapper feat the optional of bonus recovery or cooldown reduction.
That is so not true. I have seen ACTs and many many runs showing Trapper to be overpowered for being a control tree. A lot of Tiamat and Edemo runs end with HR with Paingiver. Trapper is just fine in PVE.
true we are fine but not perfect in pve,but most people are talking about pvp since pve is way easier, theirs less of a need to worry about pve, but pvp is not easy and requires actual skill to do. i am a pve'er and i know for a fact doing both pve and pvp that pvp is actually hard for a trapper or any hr. if you can balance a class in pvp, it should be fine in pve. but since i dont know much i'll leave it at that. i only know the basics of pvp since i don't like pvp in any game i play.
my hr trapper tank normally gets top 5 in paingiver in edemo and tia. so i have less power and crit then other hr trappers, that doesn't mean i don't make top 5. but i actually have some skill in trapper tree and archery tree.
So..like i say many time..u want a mechanic that let u hit the same 2 button providing 100% uptime buff at max stack? i couldnt think of anything more broken..
i suggest u to look back at my past post to truely understand my point..sry..i m tired of repeating
I understand what you've been saying in your posts perfectly, I just don't agree with it. I know this is the internet and all, but try not to make the extremely arrogant assumption that people who don't agree with you just don't understand.
Talking about '100% uptime buff at max stack' being too powerful makes no sense without context. It all comes down to the numbers which are being produced.
Do you really think that if encounter power damage for HRs were halved, the way swiftness works would still be too powerful? What about if they were reduced by 90%? No, it wouldn't still be too powerful, because there are two significant factors here: refresh rate AND attack damage.
Remember, you're the guy who just tried to argue that an enormous amount of developer time should be spent on making changes to the damage and cooldowns of 100+ powers, as well as a feat, for the sake of getting us back to exactly where we are. That is not a sensible use of anyone's time, and it boggles my mind that you don't see that.
Not only that, you don't seem to understand that making your changes would actually make trappers more powerful, because then they would also be able to spam encounter powers against any one enemy. So I don't think the problem here is with MY lack of understanding ...
You and your followers convinced @amenar to destroy hundreds of peoples hard work and investment across 3 platforms. Are you going to be the one to deliver the news to all the new PS4 players that like the prenerf Trapper?
as a new PS4 player, I'd like to think that most of us over on this side will be smart enough to understand that basing your entire existence on a broken passive(broken as in not functioning the way it is described) that will eventually be fixed isn't something that should be done.
as I can't use the test server I'm following these changes here, since I have decided to main a HR, mostly due to the mixed melee/range playstyle that is apparently the Trapper. I'm hoping that I can make a Trapper that is not solely dependent on Thorned Roots though. that is my eventual hope. I'd really like to use Serpents Bite instead.
it sounds to me like there is a faction of people who understand that you cannot fix whatever is wrong with the class, without fixing the broken mechanic. or that they realize that the broken mechanic WILL be fixed no matter what, and are moving on to trying to suggest beneficial changes, taking this into account.
and then there is a faction of people who don't want the broken mechanic fixed for any reason, even if it leads to fixes for the rest of the class, but rather they want the entire class built around the broken mechanic. and since the latter is obviously not going to happen, they are throwing a temper tantrum about it.
neither of these may be the case, but that is just how it APPEARS, from an outside (new PS4 player) perspective, reading this thread.
If you read this thread all the way through you will find that SotF is not broken. It was WAI according to the tool tip. The NERF crowd is trying to convince the community it is broken and succeeded in convincing @amenar who is working this "re-balancing" that SotF is broken.
Bottom line is this: I will leave and so will others if this NERF makes it live. We were told there would be no NERFs. After Colgate everyone said give Cryptic a chance, they learned their lesson. Then I also held on to hope when the Steel Breeze change was removed. Although now it looks like a NERF to the Trapper tree was the way Cryptic planned to make the other trees viable all along.
Personally from a business standpoint I would not NERF approximately 80% of my HR customers, that is bad for revenue generation and future growth. The data that we saw from the Devs clearly showed that most HRs run the Trapper spec. Consider the impact of the bad press and word of mouth from a large segment of players on revenue.
BTW Where is the "Greatest Trapper of All Time"? Well they no longer play Neverwinter. Just look through the posts! The person I am referring to admitted they no longer play.
Really? Tooltip doesnt say hiting melee encounter refreshes cooldown of range encounter..instead its says it reduce 15% cooldown of range encounter..vice versa...so here is the thing..why does hitting fox shift on multiple target refreshes the cooldown? Multitarget proc. Clearly thats not WAI. Its broken. It can be abused to create multi stack buff like longstrider with just hitting only 2 button continuously.
Instead of bickering over reviving a broken mechanic, why not suggest something productive which help u get back ur rotation?..for example requesting to increase cooldown reduction of swiftness from 15% to 30%? or somthing like that? The developer merely only remove the multi target proc thing..the REAL core of trapper..the cooldown reduction mechanics is still there..yet u still so blindly overlook it and throwing threat and insult at people...u need to start looking at things objectively to really solve things man. Even jmadfour look things better than u if u still keep that rage going.
At this point, I'd just like to remind people that it has not been established that the way swiftness works now is a bug. The tooltip for that feat makes absolutely no reference to how it should work with multiple targets.
"Your Melee encounter powers shorten the cooldown of your Ranged encounter powers by 3/6/9/12/15%. Your Ranged encounter powers shorten the cooldown of your Melee encounter powers by 3/6/9/12/15%."
Describing it as a bug is nothing more than a matter of opinion, a belief that it should work another way. It's also very loaded language, because it implies that something is broken as the underlying premise to this discussion, when that has not been established. And once you've won the battle to describe something as broken, the only sensible course of action is to fix it, right?
Not that I expect to change anyone's mind in the opposing camp on this issue, but look at the justifications for claiming that swiftness is a bug. So far we've had nothing more reasoned than 'it's obvious', 'classes shouldn't be able to spam encounter powers', 'it's broken' etc. While these may be articles of faith to some of you, that doesn't make them facts.
Those statements are nothing more than value judgements from people who have a particular view of how the game should work. They are not facts. Using that sort of language to discuss the problem is just an attempt to claim a legitimacy for their position that its supporters are otherwise unable to provide. That is because their position is actually just one opinion in a field of other equally legitimate opinions.
If swiftness did not work as it currently does, the trapper path would be just as uncompetitive as combat and archery currently are. If anything, that implies to me that the way swiftness is working is right, not wrong. The existing version of the trapper is a build which many players, judging by the feedback in this thread, enjoy playing. It's also an effective build without being an overpowered one. So in those senses it's not broken at all, in fact it is working quite well. It would only be broken if it were performing unusually badly or too well, or if it was being avoided by players beacause it was no fun to play.
There have been some efforts to make out that amount of cooldown reduction swiftness gives is 'overpowered' or 'stupendously powerful' but again those are simply value judgements that have no meaning outside of the context of how effective the encounter powers are themselves. Unless the encounter powers themselves are too effective, saying they can be used too often is meaningless. As things are, the cooldown reduction is allowing trappers to put out a competitive amount of damage compared to other classes.
There is no reason why classes should all be the same in terms of how relatively powerful their at wills, encounter powers and dailies are to each other, not any reason why a rotation should be required to include the use of all of those powers for best results. At wills can be staples for one class, but only situationally useful for another. That gives some interesting variation in playstyles, adding some flavour to the game, which is not a bad thing. It's already a feature of the game that there are differences like this between classes and builds. What matters here is the outcome.
Despite what we've been told by some, there are in fact a whole lot of other possible solutions to the imbalance between paths. The higher level feats and staple encounter powers for archery and combat could be improved to make up the difference in damage output. Equivalent cooldown reduction could be made available to the underperforming styles, by either replacing a less useful feat in those trees or even just moving swiftness down in the trapper tree to tier 3 or below (which was rayrdan's suggestion, I think) so it could be purchased by any build.
It'll be up to the developers to make this decision, but I'd recommend two issues be very carefully considered before any final changes are locked in.
* Do you have time to rebuild the class from the ground up, including large boots to damage from all powers, or would you prefer to make targetted fixes to underperforming areas? Wouldn't it be better to try these targetted fixes first and evaluate the results, before committing to a rebuild with all of the changes and testing that would entail? Do you want to risk breaking a functional build on the say-so of just a handful of players?
It seems to me the time you could devote to a rebuild with an uncertain outcome would be better spent on addressing real problems with other classes. If the simpler fixes do not lead to good results for combat and archery, a ground-up rebuild could be reconsidered later.
* How will the changes be received by your customers? By that I mean the majority of your customers actually still playing the class, not a minority with a fringe view of how they would prefer things, plus some agitators who primarily play other classes that are only in this discussion to further their own interests, and a few uninformed new players who drank the 'swiftness is bugged' kool-aid without knowing any better.
I'm sure you're aware of this, but I'm going to repeat it anyway; people spend a lot of time and/or money building characters in this game. If you are going to make changes that affect your customers they need to be for a good reason and have a good outcome. There is no evidence that the adjusting this feat is going to lead to a better outcome; in fact, at this stage the data we have suggests it will make things significantly worse unless a whole raft of other changes are made simply for the sake of getting back to where we are now.
Thanks.
It's one thing for people to scream "NERF NERF" and it's another to get a rational post like this. I +1 it over and over again.
Please pay attention to the real HR players of NW, Devs!
So..like i say many time..u want a mechanic that let u hit the same 2 button providing 100% uptime buff at max stack? i couldnt think of anything more broken..
i suggest u to look back at my past post to truely understand my point..sry..i m tired of repeating
I understand what you've been saying in your posts perfectly, I just don't agree with it. I know this is the internet and all, but try not to make the extremely arrogant assumption that people who don't agree with you must be wrong.
Talking about '100% uptime buff at max stack' being too powerful makes no sense without context. It all comes down to the numbers which are being produced.
Do you really think that if encounter power damage for HRs were halved, the way swiftness works would still be too powerful? What about if they were reduced by 90%? No, it wouldn't still be too powerful, because there are two significant factors here: refresh rate AND attack damage.
Remember, you're the guy who just tried to argue that an enormous amount of developer time should be spent on making changes to the damage and cooldowns of 100+ powers, as well as a feat, for the sake of getting us back to exactly where we are. That is not a sensible use of anyone's time, and it boggles my mind that you don't see that.
Not only that, you don't seem to understand that making the changes would actually make trappers more powerful, because then they would also be able to spam encounter powers against even just one enemy. So I don't the problem here is with MY lack of understanding ...
Thanks.
100% uptime buff at max stack for example longstrider buff? also continuous use of only 2 encounter refreshes each other not broken? cmon..think about it. U practically could abuse any encounter u want.
Removing multi target proc is merely just removing this broken kitten feature..it does meant to cripple ur rotation. The CD reduction is still there..all u need to do is either
1) reduce the cooldown of encounter one bye one as suggested by others 2) start stacking recovery 3) increase the cooldown reduction of swiftness to close up the gap of ur rotation.
About the last line u said, i dont quite get it..are u saying spamming encounter power against even one enemy is making trapper more powerful? It makes me wonder the point of we having this conversation...
bugs need to be fixed obviously all three feat trees should be viable. to me this should obvious.
archery - range - massive dps - good mobility while dishing out that range dps. mediocre control combat - melee dps - massive amounts - good mobility while dishing out the dps. little to no control trapper - hybrid dps - good amounts of dps - great mobility - great control
The trapper tree has all the control, it should have the least dps! Also just change the combat capstone. no more stupid at will swing ****. our at wills are pathetic. the combat capstone should give more overall damage than the trapper capstone since the trapper incolved control and ap generation and is pretty much always up.
+1 i use my hr not for dps and i still come out on top in paingiver, now don't think i am joking cause i will leave a link below stating proof of my build; but i play my hr like a tank. i use mobility, survival from control, and heals from oak skin to stay alive, i also use life steal for small heals. now i do run overall stats, meaning i use all kind of stats, but in the end trapper is meant for control and mobility, archers need to be mobile to and so do combat. so decrease the animation of powers will fix our mobility problem. up the damage of at will as trappers don't need nor should be using those. improve the feat trees so they match the meaning of the class .....make the archery tree do more damage while in range stance and up damage based on distance and don't let the distance keep the hr form team buffs in dungeons or pvp. .....make the combat tree have more deflect/deflect severity and make it completely mobile as being on your toes is what hunter rangers are about and combat hr's. make their tree better when in melee stance .............for range tree make a feat that increases range powers and decreases melee powers, that way you can buff the rangers with more damage while not thinking the melee will be stronger too they are meant to stay away make them do that by weakening melee .............same thing for combat, make their melee stronger as the cost of range being weakened as for trappers to fix them simple allow them to control more with dazes and roots. make their feats root more often and have the roots apply daze with crushing roots. have their roots do damage over time even to immune enemies (if enemy is immune increase damage but don't remove the dot) that way trappers can be useful against bosses and certain players that are or become immune.
now i don't know a lot about combat tree cause i really only like archery and trapper and i can say that i agree with the person i quoted about the basis on a hunter in each tree.
Providing a link to your build on the forums that many have seen and pointed out problems is not proving anything. Post your ACT runs with ILs of everybody in your party and maybe we will believe you. I know you wont though because I know exactly what every class is capable of and where the HR stands.
though i like the challenge, you're right i cant, though i could however ask my brother to do that, but he doesn't play neverwinter enough and though he does know how to post videos and i do not, i only know how to play the game for the enjoyment of playing, so thanks for stating the areas at which i have no strength in and things i cannot do. as for people pointing out problems in my build they have not pointed any real problems they have given their opinions on my build and how to improve it so thanks. sorry if my posts get off topic, i try to respond to posts as accurately as possible and on topic, but i can only do so much and i want to continue playing as a tank hr, cause i really enjoy it but if i have to change my build i will and that is ok cause change happens; as sad as it is.
now as to the link it was only to prove what build i use, it was in no way to be focused on i wanted people to focus on the thoughts i had for cahnges. so after the words "meaning i use all kind of stats" is where the post really matters. the fact you focused on the whole link to my build is not helping the forum and i know i could have deleted the whole top part, but i thought some backlog info would help people understand where i am coming from when i am talking about how the hr works. well to me at least.
edit: if you know what each class is capable of them you should be able to understand how every build made works in the situations they are made for. every class has their own set of builds and any build can be made easily though some work, some builds are better then others builds, as builds are always in the process of being made and improved. hr's have the most versatile play style, they can play as just about anything which is why i like them so much.
as a way to stay on topic here all i wanted my post to be about was where all the bullets were. the possible changes that might help. now please comment on the changes i mentioned and not the link that was not meant to be focused on. i want to help the hr if i can but can only do so much.
You and your followers convinced @amenar to destroy hundreds of peoples hard work and investment across 3 platforms. Are you going to be the one to deliver the news to all the new PS4 players that like the prenerf Trapper?
as a new PS4 player, I'd like to think that most of us over on this side will be smart enough to understand that basing your entire existence on a broken passive(broken as in not functioning the way it is described) that will eventually be fixed isn't something that should be done.
as I can't use the test server I'm following these changes here, since I have decided to main a HR, mostly due to the mixed melee/range playstyle that is apparently the Trapper. I'm hoping that I can make a Trapper that is not solely dependent on Thorned Roots though. that is my eventual hope. I'd really like to use Serpents Bite instead.
it sounds to me like there is a faction of people who understand that you cannot fix whatever is wrong with the class, without fixing the broken mechanic. or that they realize that the broken mechanic WILL be fixed no matter what, and are moving on to trying to suggest beneficial changes, taking this into account.
and then there is a faction of people who don't want the broken mechanic fixed for any reason, even if it leads to fixes for the rest of the class, but rather they want the entire class built around the broken mechanic. and since the latter is obviously not going to happen, they are throwing a temper tantrum about it.
neither of these may be the case, but that is just how it APPEARS, from an outside (new PS4 player) perspective, reading this thread.
If you read this thread all the way through you will find that SotF is not broken. It was WAI according to the tool tip. The NERF crowd is trying to convince the community it is broken and succeeded in convincing @amenar who is working this "re-balancing" that SotF is broken.
Bottom line is this: I will leave and so will others if this NERF makes it live. We were told there would be no NERFs. After Colgate everyone said give Cryptic a chance, they learned their lesson. Then I also held on to hope when the Steel Breeze change was removed. Although now it looks like a NERF to the Trapper tree was the way Cryptic planned to make the other trees viable all along.
Personally from a business standpoint I would not NERF approximately 80% of my HR customers, that is bad for revenue generation and future growth. The data that we saw from the Devs clearly showed that most HRs run the Trapper spec. Consider the impact of the bad press and word of mouth from a large segment of players on revenue.
BTW Where is the "Greatest Trapper of All Time"? Well they no longer play Neverwinter. Just look through the posts! The person I am referring to admitted they no longer play.
Really? Tooltip doesnt say hiting melee encounter refreshes cooldown of range encounter..instead its says it reduce 15% cooldown of range encounter..vice versa...so here is the thing..why does hitting fox shift on multiple target refreshes the cooldown? Multitarget proc. Clearly thats not WAI. Its broken. It can be abused to create multi stack buff like longstrider with just hitting only 2 button continuously.
Instead of bickering over reviving a broken mechanic, why not suggest something productive which help u get back ur rotation?..for example requesting to increase cooldown reduction of swiftness from 15% to 30%? or somthing like that? The developer merely only remove the multi target proc thing..the REAL core of trapper..the cooldown reduction mechanics is still there..yet u still so blindly overlook it and throwing threat and insult at people...u need to start looking at things objectively to really solve things man. Even jmadfour look things better than u if u still keep that rage going.
+1 yes give ideas how to fix hr's
the idea has been given by ralexinor..if u read back a few page
You and your followers convinced @amenar to destroy hundreds of peoples hard work and investment across 3 platforms. Are you going to be the one to deliver the news to all the new PS4 players that like the prenerf Trapper?
as a new PS4 player, I'd like to think that most of us over on this side will be smart enough to understand that basing your entire existence on a broken passive(broken as in not functioning the way it is described) that will eventually be fixed isn't something that should be done.
as I can't use the test server I'm following these changes here, since I have decided to main a HR, mostly due to the mixed melee/range playstyle that is apparently the Trapper. I'm hoping that I can make a Trapper that is not solely dependent on Thorned Roots though. that is my eventual hope. I'd really like to use Serpents Bite instead.
it sounds to me like there is a faction of people who understand that you cannot fix whatever is wrong with the class, without fixing the broken mechanic. or that they realize that the broken mechanic WILL be fixed no matter what, and are moving on to trying to suggest beneficial changes, taking this into account.
and then there is a faction of people who don't want the broken mechanic fixed for any reason, even if it leads to fixes for the rest of the class, but rather they want the entire class built around the broken mechanic. and since the latter is obviously not going to happen, they are throwing a temper tantrum about it.
neither of these may be the case, but that is just how it APPEARS, from an outside (new PS4 player) perspective, reading this thread.
If you read this thread all the way through you will find that SotF is not broken. It was WAI according to the tool tip. The NERF crowd is trying to convince the community it is broken and succeeded in convincing @amenar who is working this "re-balancing" that SotF is broken.
Bottom line is this: I will leave and so will others if this NERF makes it live. We were told there would be no NERFs. After Colgate everyone said give Cryptic a chance, they learned their lesson. Then I also held on to hope when the Steel Breeze change was removed. Although now it looks like a NERF to the Trapper tree was the way Cryptic planned to make the other trees viable all along.
Personally from a business standpoint I would not NERF approximately 80% of my HR customers, that is bad for revenue generation and future growth. The data that we saw from the Devs clearly showed that most HRs run the Trapper spec. Consider the impact of the bad press and word of mouth from a large segment of players on revenue.
BTW Where is the "Greatest Trapper of All Time"? Well they no longer play Neverwinter. Just look through the posts! The person I am referring to admitted they no longer play.
Really? Tooltip doesnt say hiting melee encounter refreshes cooldown of range encounter..instead its says it reduce 15% cooldown of range encounter..vice versa...so here is the thing..why does hitting fox shift on multiple target refreshes the cooldown? Multitarget proc. Clearly thats not WAI. Its broken. It can be abused to create multi stack buff like longstrider with just hitting only 2 button continuously.
Instead of bickering over reviving a broken mechanic, why not suggest something productive which help u get back ur rotation?..for example requesting to increase cooldown reduction of swiftness from 15% to 30%? or somthing like that? The developer merely only remove the multi target proc thing..the REAL core of trapper..the cooldown reduction mechanics is still there..yet u still so blindly overlook it and throwing threat and insult at people...u need to start looking at things objectively to really solve things man. Even jmadfour look things better than u if u still keep that rage going.
+1 yes give ideas how to fix hr's
the idea has been given by ralexinor..if u read back a few page
would you rather i go back to those pages i read and quote him so his post is at the top?
Macjae, the more you say on this topic, the more disingenuous your replies seem to me. What makes it particularly amusing is you can't concede the very simple truth that this issue is a matter of opinion, then produce these fantastically laboured and convoluted posts in which you accuse me of using legalistic arguments and obscurantism. A+ for transference.
You've made no progress on establishing greater legitimacy of your preferred approach. You're just repeating the same tired slogans about how swiftness is a bug, it's broken and how your interpretation should be obvious. But that is just your opinion, nothing more no matter how creatively you try to dress it up and how hard you try to run down my own position.
Despite your insistence on this issue nothing has changed. This is simply a discussion between two groups people who have different, equally legitimate ideas about how best to handle this class pass. The tooltip is not specific and does not unequivocally support how you would prefer things to be. Frankly, I think the class pass discussion would be much better served by getting off this issue of trying to draw meaning from an incomplete description and back onto the issue of producing good fixes for the class with the minimum of developer effort.
The fact that trappers outperform the other two paths doesn't prove that trapper is broken. Arguing that trapper should be made less powerful in relation to the other two paths is nonsense, because the proper comparsion is how each of the builds are doing relative to other classes. It's already been established - by the developers - that trapper is due for some mild buffs, but combat and archery need much more help.
Once again, I'm not trying to promote the supremacy of the trapper over other HR builds. I would like for there to be more choice and would try my hand at playing the other paths if they were more competitive. I resisted moving to trapper for a long time, and while I enjoy playing it now I would like to see better options for myself and other people running HRs.
I had trouble keeping a straight face at your claims about wanting a simpler and better solution. Again, you really need to support these claims if you expect them to be taken seriously. How exactly is your preferred solution better? We have no evidence that even the very specific suggestions made by ralexinor would lead to a better outcome. let alone your much more general assertions. And if you think deciding upon, making and testing changes to the dozens of damaging power the class has, by adjusting cooldowns and/or damage is simpler, you and I have very different ideas of what the word 'simpler' means. I encourage you to consult the nearest dictionary as a matter of urgency.
I have not made any threats at all, despite what you've said. I am not threatening to quit the game or spend no more money on it, nor am I encouraging other people to do that. But as the developers are aware, actions have consequences, and pretending that if the class pass produces bad results for the majority of customers will have no effect on the game is very naive. My main point is that you are in a substantial minority on this issue, and irritating a large group of players just to please you and ralexinor along with your small but noisy crowd of agitators promoting other classes as well as a couple of misguided new people who have been hypnotised by your relentless description of swiftness as bugged, might not be a good business decision.
I think your ideas for change have some merit, but they are a much larger undertaking than what I think is needed. My inclination is to try what is really simpler first, ie, making some changes to a few encounter powers and feats for combat and archery, then to look at a full rebuild for the class afterwards if the first approach does not work.
Just a friendly reminder from the moderation team.
Please stay calm, engage the developers with some degree of respect, and please focus on the changes at hand. This is a process, and it's only been a little more than a week. We still have 3 more weeks until Module 10 launches, so instead of declaring the Ranger dead and gone, please keep up with the constructive. But that being said, we'll continue to prune any posts from this thread that focus on flaming, trolling, threatening the devs or otherwise unproductive so that the developers can focus on posts by those who are making an effort to balance and improve the Ranger.
Macjae, the more you say on this topic, the more disingenuous your replies seem to me. What makes it particularly amusing is you can't concede the very simple truth that this issue is a matter of opinion, then produce these fantastically laboured and convoluted posts in which you accuse me of using legalistic arguments and obscurantism. A+ for transference.
You've made no progress on establishing greater legitimacy of your preferred approach. You're just repeating the same tired slogans about how swiftness is a bug, it's broken and how your interpretation should be obvious. But that is just your opinion, nothing more no matter how creatively you try to dress it up and how hard you try to run down my own position.
Despite your insistence on this issue nothing has changed. This is simply a discussion between two groups people who have different, equally legitimate ideas about how best to handle this class pass. The tooltip is not specific and does not unequivocally support how you would prefer things to be. Frankly, I think the class pass discussion would be much better served by getting off this issue of trying to draw meaning from an incomplete description and back onto the issue of producing good fixes for the class with the minimum of developer effort.
The fact that trappers outperform the other two paths doesn't prove that trapper is broken. Arguing that trapper should be made less powerful in relation to the other two paths is nonsense, because the proper comparsion is how each of the builds are doing relative to other classes. It's already been established - by the developers - that trapper is due for some mild buffs, but combat and archery need much more help.
Once again, I'm not trying to promote the supremacy of the trapper over other HR builds. I would like for there to be more choice and would try my hand at playing the other paths if they were more competitive. I resisted moving to trapper for a long time, and while I enjoy playing it now I would like to see better options for myself and other people running HRs.
I had trouble keeping a straight face at your claims about wanting a simpler and better solution. Again, you really need to support these claims if you expect them to be taken seriously. How exactly is your preferred solution better? We have no evidence that even the very specific suggestions made by ralexinor would lead to a better outcome. let alone your much more general assertions. And if you think deciding upon, making and testing changes to the dozens of damaging power the class has, by adjusting cooldowns and/or damage is simpler, you and I have very different ideas of what the word 'simpler' means. I encourage you to consult the nearest dictionary as a matter of urgency.
I have not made any threats at all, despite what you've said. I am not threatening to quit the game or spend no more money on it, nor am I encouraging other people to do that. But as the developers are aware, actions have consequences, and pretending that if the class pass produces bad results for the majority of customers will have no effect on the game is very naive. My main point is that you are in a substantial minority on this issue, and irritating a large group of players just to please you and ralexinor along with your small but noisy crowd of agitators promoting other classes as well as a couple new people, might not be a good business decision.
I think your ideas for change have some merit, but they are a much larger undertaking than what I think is needed. My inclination is to try what is really simpler first, ie, making some changes to a few encounter powers and feats for combat and archery, then to look at a full rebuild for the class afterwards if the first approach does not work.
Thanks.
+1 like your response and ill do the same as you, try to stay on topic and with facts.
indeed macjae we should figure out how to fix encounters, class features, etc. not being talking about and how to improve the general hr's, once all the nerfs are done coming we can actually buff what needs oto be buffed and rework what needs to be changed.
The damage and movement speed buff from longstrider lasts for four seconds, and during that period it decays from the start to end. While it's possible to keep longstrider up most of the time using certain rotations, it requires using other powers which do not offer the best damage output and also requires a less damaging style of play.
There is a cost for using a rotation built mainly to keep longstrider up, it's not a full-time 20% buff, and other classes have powers which offer better debuffing.
There are two factors at work here. It doesn't matter AT ALL if encounter powers can be cycled without interruption so long as their effects take that into account. A 20% buff with a 100% uptime is not necessarily better than a 40% buff with a 50% uptime. In some circumstances, the lower buff with the higher uptime is actually worse, because good teams can time the use of their powers to take best advantage of the larger buff within a shorter period. Right?
Changing the way swiftness works is absolutely pointless if you also make other changes to the feats and encounters to recover what was lost. My point here is making a lot of unnecessary changes to get us right back to the same point we were at is nothing more than a colossal waste of player and developer time.
My point about your suggestion making trappers more powerful is based on how swiftness is currently more effective against a larger number of targets. At the moment, trappers can't use encounter powers against a single non boss target as quickly as they can against a group of two, three four or five. Your change would remove the requirement for a certain style of play which skilled trappers use to do well, ie, dont kill things off one at a time and instead would allow encounters to be spammed non stop regardless of how many enemies or allies were around.
Comments
"Your Melee encounter powers shorten the cooldown of your Ranged encounter powers by 3/6/9/12/15%. Your Ranged encounter powers shorten the cooldown of your Melee encounter powers by 3/6/9/12/15%."
Describing it as a bug is nothing more than a matter of opinion, a belief that it should work another way. It's also very loaded language, because it implies that something is broken as the underlying premise to this discussion, when that has not been established. And once you've won the battle to describe something as broken, the only sensible course of action is to fix it, right?
Not that I expect to change anyone's mind in the opposing camp on this issue, but look at the justifications for claiming that swiftness is a bug. So far we've had nothing more reasoned than 'it's obvious', 'classes shouldn't be able to spam encounter powers', 'it's broken' etc. While these may be articles of faith to some of you, that doesn't make them facts.
Those statements are nothing more than value judgements from people who have a particular view of how the game should work. They are not facts. Using that sort of language to discuss the problem is just an attempt to claim a legitimacy for their position that its supporters are otherwise unable to provide. That is because their position is actually just one opinion in a field of other equally legitimate opinions.
If swiftness did not work as it currently does, the trapper path would be just as uncompetitive as combat and archery currently are. If anything, that implies to me that the way swiftness is working is right, not wrong. The existing version of the trapper is a build which many players, judging by the feedback in this thread, enjoy playing. It's also an effective build without being an overpowered one. So in those senses it's not broken at all, in fact it is working quite well. It would only be broken if it were performing unusually badly or too well, or if it was being avoided by players beacause it was no fun to play.
There have been some efforts to make out that amount of cooldown reduction swiftness gives is 'overpowered' or 'stupendously powerful' but again those are simply value judgements that have no meaning outside of the context of how effective the encounter powers are themselves. Unless the encounter powers themselves are too effective, saying they can be used too often is meaningless. As things are, the cooldown reduction is allowing trappers to put out a competitive amount of damage compared to other classes.
There is no reason why classes should all be the same in terms of how relatively powerful their at wills, encounter powers and dailies are to each other, not any reason why a rotation should be required to include the use of all of those powers for best results. At wills can be staples for one class, but only situationally useful for another. That gives some interesting variation in playstyles, adding some flavour to the game, which is not a bad thing. It's already a feature of the game that there are differences like this between classes and builds. What matters here is the outcome.
Despite what we've been told by some, there are in fact a whole lot of other possible solutions to the imbalance between paths. The higher level feats and staple encounter powers for archery and combat could be improved to make up the difference in damage output. Equivalent cooldown reduction could be made available to the underperforming styles, by either replacing a less useful feat in those trees or even just moving swiftness down in the trapper tree to tier 3 or below (which was rayrdan's suggestion, I think) so it could be purchased by any build.
It'll be up to the developers to make this decision, but I'd recommend two issues be very carefully considered before any final changes are locked in.
* Do you have time to rebuild the class from the ground up, including large boots to damage from all powers, or would you prefer to make targetted fixes to underperforming areas? Wouldn't it be better to try these targetted fixes first and evaluate the results, before committing to a rebuild with all of the changes and testing that would entail? Do you want to risk breaking a functional build on the say-so of just a handful of players?
It seems to me the time you could devote to a rebuild with an uncertain outcome would be better spent on addressing real problems with other classes. If the simpler fixes do not lead to good results for combat and archery, a ground-up rebuild could be reconsidered later.
* How will the changes be received by your customers? By that I mean the majority of your customers actually still playing the class, not a minority with a fringe view of how they would prefer things, plus some agitators who primarily play other classes that are only in this discussion to further their own interests, and a few uninformed new players who drank the 'swiftness is bugged' kool-aid without knowing any better.
I'm sure you're aware of this, but I'm going to repeat it anyway; people spend a lot of time and/or money building characters in this game. If you are going to make changes that affect your customers they need to be for a good reason and have a good outcome. There is no evidence that the adjusting this feat is going to lead to a better outcome; in fact, at this stage the data we have suggests it will make things significantly worse unless a whole raft of other changes are made simply for the sake of getting back to where we are now.
Thanks.
please guys if you want to improve hr's test them and give info that is useful, so that the developers can improve hr's before the next mod comes out. theirs no room to complain about whats done, so keep moving forward and lets fix the next problem. if recovery is the next problem then suggest a good idea on how to fix it, either by lowering our cooldowns or changing feats to affect our cooldowns.
Also there is simpler way to get back ur full rotation than asking to give u back a broken mechanics. Like increase the cooldown reduction given by swiftness? Its not that hard.
We have been hearing for almost a year that they are taking their time to evaluate the classes and didn't want to make any big changes like 3 mods ago. Ok so fast forward to now, they have been internally testing these changes for a while now. It has been said that HR was underperforming as a striker in pve and pvp (dev blog). So they introduce all these changes to other two paths that have been pretty much received with a big "meh"
Now, 3 weeks till launch, they are introducing a HUGE change to the the path most HRs use. I don't think this change was very thought out as it wasn't included in the initial patch notes or dev blog. I think this was a last minute change that was not tested.
What were the biggest complaints about HR? low survivability, low burst damage. Devs said that their damage wasn't good in dung either so Ill add it. Now what was fixed? 30% more dodge... My HR on preview is now doing less damage, which leads to less survivability. I just tested in Well of dragons.
If this is how striker damage is suppose to be, are we going to see a major nerf coming to GWF damage? I hope not but how can you leave one and take out the other...
Is this how the other balance changes are going to go? 6 months of internal testing then you put on preview and people (who main other classes) start driving the nerf train?
That change may have been made without understanding how central swiftness is to one build, and how it could also be used to solve problems with other builds. Or it may have been done with perfect knowledge just for the sake of evaluating the results for the build and the community's reaction.
And if you do not see the pointlessness of changing how swiftness procs so it doesn't fully refresh encounters, but then making other changes like adjusting cooldowns individually and/or changing the refresh rate so the powers can refresh instantly after all, I don't really know what to say to you.
This just seems like more evidence that a ) some of you are so fixated on the word 'broken' that you are unable to see the forest for the trees, and b) you have no concept of prioritisation and effective use of time in a working environment.
Thanks.
i use my hr not for dps and i still come out on top in paingiver, now don't think i am joking cause i will leave a link below stating proof of my build; but i play my hr like a tank. i use mobility, survival from control, and heals from oak skin to stay alive, i also use life steal for small heals. now i do run overall stats, meaning i use all kind of stats, but in the end trapper is meant for control and mobility, archers need to be mobile to and so do combat.
so decrease the animation of powers will fix our mobility problem.
up the damage of at will as trappers don't need nor should be using those.
improve the feat trees so they match the meaning of the class
.....make the archery tree do more damage while in range stance and up damage based on distance and don't let the distance keep the hr form team buffs in dungeons or pvp.
.....make the combat tree have more deflect/deflect severity and make it completely mobile as being on your toes is what hunter rangers are about and combat hr's. make their tree better when in melee stance
.............for range tree make a feat that increases range powers and decreases melee powers, that way you can buff the rangers with more damage while not thinking the melee will be stronger too they are meant to stay away make them do that by weakening melee
.............same thing for combat, make their melee stronger as the cost of range being weakened
as for trappers to fix them simple allow them to control more with dazes and roots. make their feats root more often and have the roots apply daze with crushing roots.
have their roots do damage over time even to immune enemies (if enemy is immune increase damage but don't remove the dot) that way trappers can be useful against bosses and certain players that are or become immune.
now i don't know a lot about combat tree cause i really only like archery and trapper and i can say that i agree with the person i quoted about the basis on a hunter in each tree.
edit: link below
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1218545/genj-hunter-ranger-build
proof of my build
i suggest u to look back at my past post ( page 17) to truely understand my point..sry..i m tired of repeating
ambush does need some reworking and i like your idea of bear trap scattering them, though that might be hard to do in the game mechanics.
their was no real need to nerf the trapper tree since its barely viable in pve
why not nerf the encounter fox shift instead; simple the people had said over and over that this tree feat was broken when really it was fairly decent sure if your going to nerf it, make it somewhat manageable; don't force us to slot recovery. or give a trapper feat the optional of bonus recovery or cooldown reduction.
my hr trapper tank normally gets top 5 in paingiver in edemo and tia. so i have less power and crit then other hr trappers, that doesn't mean i don't make top 5. but i actually have some skill in trapper tree and archery tree.
Talking about '100% uptime buff at max stack' being too powerful makes no sense without context. It all comes down to the numbers which are being produced.
Do you really think that if encounter power damage for HRs were halved, the way swiftness works would still be too powerful? What about if they were reduced by 90%? No, it wouldn't still be too powerful, because there are two significant factors here: refresh rate AND attack damage.
Remember, you're the guy who just tried to argue that an enormous amount of developer time should be spent on making changes to the damage and cooldowns of 100+ powers, as well as a feat, for the sake of getting us back to exactly where we are. That is not a sensible use of anyone's time, and it boggles my mind that you don't see that.
Not only that, you don't seem to understand that making your changes would actually make trappers more powerful, because then they would also be able to spam encounter powers against any one enemy. So I don't think the problem here is with MY lack of understanding ...
Thanks.
yes give ideas how to fix hr's
yes buff damage on archery and combat and improve control on trapper
It's one thing for people to scream "NERF NERF" and it's another to get a rational post like this. I +1 it over and over again.
Please pay attention to the real HR players of NW, Devs!
Removing multi target proc is merely just removing this broken kitten feature..it does meant to cripple ur rotation. The CD reduction is still there..all u need to do is either
1) reduce the cooldown of encounter one bye one as suggested by others
2) start stacking recovery
3) increase the cooldown reduction of swiftness to close up the gap of ur rotation.
About the last line u said, i dont quite get it..are u saying spamming encounter power against even one enemy is making trapper more powerful? It makes me wonder the point of we having this conversation...
as for people pointing out problems in my build they have not pointed any real problems they have given their opinions on my build and how to improve it so thanks.
sorry if my posts get off topic, i try to respond to posts as accurately as possible and on topic, but i can only do so much and i want to continue playing as a tank hr, cause i really enjoy it but if i have to change my build i will and that is ok cause change happens; as sad as it is.
now as to the link it was only to prove what build i use, it was in no way to be focused on i wanted people to focus on the thoughts i had for cahnges. so after the words "meaning i use all kind of stats" is where the post really matters. the fact you focused on the whole link to my build is not helping the forum and i know i could have deleted the whole top part, but i thought some backlog info would help people understand where i am coming from when i am talking about how the hr works. well to me at least.
edit:
if you know what each class is capable of them you should be able to understand how every build made works in the situations they are made for.
every class has their own set of builds and any build can be made easily though some work, some builds are better then others builds, as builds are always in the process of being made and improved.
hr's have the most versatile play style, they can play as just about anything which is why i like them so much.
as a way to stay on topic here all i wanted my post to be about was where all the bullets were. the possible changes that might help. now please comment on the changes i mentioned and not the link that was not meant to be focused on.
i want to help the hr if i can but can only do so much.
the idea has been given by ralexinor..if u read back a few page
You've made no progress on establishing greater legitimacy of your preferred approach. You're just repeating the same tired slogans about how swiftness is a bug, it's broken and how your interpretation should be obvious. But that is just your opinion, nothing more no matter how creatively you try to dress it up and how hard you try to run down my own position.
Despite your insistence on this issue nothing has changed. This is simply a discussion between two groups people who have different, equally legitimate ideas about how best to handle this class pass. The tooltip is not specific and does not unequivocally support how you would prefer things to be. Frankly, I think the class pass discussion would be much better served by getting off this issue of trying to draw meaning from an incomplete description and back onto the issue of producing good fixes for the class with the minimum of developer effort.
The fact that trappers outperform the other two paths doesn't prove that trapper is broken. Arguing that trapper should be made less powerful in relation to the other two paths is nonsense, because the proper comparsion is how each of the builds are doing relative to other classes. It's already been established - by the developers - that trapper is due for some mild buffs, but combat and archery need much more help.
Once again, I'm not trying to promote the supremacy of the trapper over other HR builds. I would like for there to be more choice and would try my hand at playing the other paths if they were more competitive. I resisted moving to trapper for a long time, and while I enjoy playing it now I would like to see better options for myself and other people running HRs.
I had trouble keeping a straight face at your claims about wanting a simpler and better solution. Again, you really need to support these claims if you expect them to be taken seriously. How exactly is your preferred solution better? We have no evidence that even the very specific suggestions made by ralexinor would lead to a better outcome. let alone your much more general assertions. And if you think deciding upon, making and testing changes to the dozens of damaging power the class has, by adjusting cooldowns and/or damage is simpler, you and I have very different ideas of what the word 'simpler' means. I encourage you to consult the nearest dictionary as a matter of urgency.
I have not made any threats at all, despite what you've said. I am not threatening to quit the game or spend no more money on it, nor am I encouraging other people to do that. But as the developers are aware, actions have consequences, and pretending that if the class pass produces bad results for the majority of customers will have no effect on the game is very naive. My main point is that you are in a substantial minority on this issue, and irritating a large group of players just to please you and ralexinor along with your small but noisy crowd of agitators promoting other classes as well as a couple of misguided new people who have been hypnotised by your relentless description of swiftness as bugged, might not be a good business decision.
I think your ideas for change have some merit, but they are a much larger undertaking than what I think is needed. My inclination is to try what is really simpler first, ie, making some changes to a few encounter powers and feats for combat and archery, then to look at a full rebuild for the class afterwards if the first approach does not work.
Thanks.
like your response and ill do the same as you, try to stay on topic and with facts.
The damage and movement speed buff from longstrider lasts for four seconds, and during that period it decays from the start to end. While it's possible to keep longstrider up most of the time using certain rotations, it requires using other powers which do not offer the best damage output and also requires a less damaging style of play.
There is a cost for using a rotation built mainly to keep longstrider up, it's not a full-time 20% buff, and other classes have powers which offer better debuffing.
There are two factors at work here. It doesn't matter AT ALL if encounter powers can be cycled without interruption so long as their effects take that into account. A 20% buff with a 100% uptime is not necessarily better than a 40% buff with a 50% uptime. In some circumstances, the lower buff with the higher uptime is actually worse, because good teams can time the use of their powers to take best advantage of the larger buff within a shorter period. Right?
Changing the way swiftness works is absolutely pointless if you also make other changes to the feats and encounters to recover what was lost. My point here is making a lot of unnecessary changes to get us right back to the same point we were at is nothing more than a colossal waste of player and developer time.
My point about your suggestion making trappers more powerful is based on how swiftness is currently more effective against a larger number of targets. At the moment, trappers can't use encounter powers against a single non boss target as quickly as they can against a group of two, three four or five. Your change would remove the requirement for a certain style of play which skilled trappers use to do well, ie, dont kill things off one at a time and instead would allow encounters to be spammed non stop regardless of how many enemies or allies were around.
Thanks.