Should be a blog on class balance next week. The major changes are going to the SW, HR and the GF.
I do want to say that complete class balance will almost never happen in any game. I'm a huge fighting game fan myself, which is a genre that relies the heaviest on a balanced roster of fighters, but at the end, a tier list always pops up with some characters performing better than others. Can we get closer to a more balanced game? Sure! I hope the changes do just that.
They should also go on Preview pretty soon for everyone to test.
May the hammer of nerf hit on GF's IFT&challenge with great fury!!!
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
I agree that there are monster GFs out there doing insane damage in both pve and pvp and that should not be happening with a tank class. One could argue that the GWF should therefore be able to tank with the appropriate tree without any issues, just as the GF is able to do massive damage.
Except most GWFs are already convinced that damage is everything for them. Even if they fix the tree to tank, it won't be used.
But that's the thing you see. GWF brings damage to the table. NOTHING ELSE. Can you blame them for something that was the fault of Cryptic?
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
But that's the thing you see. GWF brings damage to the table. NOTHING ELSE. Can you blame them for something that was the fault of Cryptic?
Yes. A 4k CW told me this. You have to build your toon like you're doing 100% solo and never rely on someone in your team to do their respective roles.
Yet, GWFs are running their builds from one of the two DPS guides and follow them faithfully as if it was some form of religion. Can you imagine a high il GWF insult other GWFs for not doing the damage output that he had? Because that's what's happening in-game right now.
Will those classes get a respec? This will be a nerf and I should hope people that spent time and money maximizing their characters potential will be able to try another path at no cost. At the very least.
Tenacity, Lifesteal, healing weapons, Negation, Feytouched, artifacts and Insignias are what make GWFs tanky in PVP. It is not the class at all. Tenacity needs a major overhaul, as does DR and RI.
People should have the chance to change all those things as well at no cost. I dont imagine thats gonna happen.
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
Cryptic are handing out Retraining Tokens like candy. Don't expect a freebie as a result of any changes made to your class.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Should be a blog on class balance next week. The major changes are going to the SW, HR and the GF.
I do want to say that complete class balance will almost never happen in any game. I'm a huge fighting game fan myself, which is a genre that relies the heaviest on a balanced roster of fighters, but at the end, a tier list always pops up with some characters performing better than others. Can we get closer to a more balanced game? Sure! I hope the changes do just that.
They should also go on Preview pretty soon for everyone to test.
thanks for the update.
"we all love this game and want it to thrive"
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
This post would be absolute heaven if someone linked a prior statement from this person reveling in the nerf to pally bubbles. Welcome to the club my friend. Enjoy the nerf hammer, your class has avoided it long enough. I love how well you keep a straight face when you know full well your class needs this nerf more than anything lol.
Paladin, the class, was a huge nerf to GFs, starting at Mod 6. Only recently have people begun preferring GFs to Pallys--who were doing a job already covered.
Paladin, the class, was a huge nerf to GFs, starting at Mod 6. Only recently have people begun preferring GFs to Pallys--who were doing a job already covered.
Someone gets it.. The reason the GF got a more effective DPS role is because the Paladin replaced them as the primary tank of this game. Remember when the GF Conq capstone was before the nerfs? Power as your block meter went down and that got nerfed. Remember when GF's blocked 100% and that got pushed down to 80%? Or tanking before mobs got insane arm pen? And lifesteal and out of battle regeneration (that literally no one gives a **** about anymore) , etc, etc.
This game was flipped upside down to make room for a class that game didn't need. The SW got flung right out of the ******* galaxy till a trick got found to make them worth a darn again. That's next on the nerf chopping block. It's all been damage-control since then.
They take away skills with one hand then sell overpowered stuff for Zen like the Dread, legacy mount bonuses, purple insignias, bonding stones, cub pets, etc.. with the other. Here, let me sell you this overpowered ability while I take away this overpowered ability; SOSDD; Smoke and mirrors. Release overpowerment for spike-revenue then spend 3 mods cleaning up the mess. This game won't survive another mod 6 hard, come-to-Jesus reset. NWO has painted itself in the corner. It's going to require Houdini-like ability to get out of this one.
And think about the big picture. You're all grinding the same tiny content every day for AD. All of you! Can you tell me you're not bored? The ITF, AS, MF,CA stuff makes the boring go faster: You get your AD, salvage and a microscopic chance at something worth-wile and that's it. Rising tide raises all ships. Boring and played out dungeons that take 15 minutes are gong to take 45 or longer. Why, so people can grin that their paingiver 98% of the time and they feel justified in blowing 2 grand on a video game. I don't know about you, but I want to blow through tedium as fast as possible, regardless who got the ego-relative paingiver #1 slot. It's like I'm dealing with second-grader logic.
I really do hope they don't decrease the GF damage itself. Buffs are the major problem at the moment in making content trivial and needs to be addressed. I have a buff/debuff GF and it already takes me aeons to kill Baphomet with a striker companion. I agree that there are monster GFs out there doing insane damage in both pve and pvp and that should not be happening with a tank class. One could argue that the GWF should therefore be able to tank with the appropriate tree without any issues, just as the GF is able to do massive damage.
I think that in balancing terms, they really should address buffs as a whole. ITF and GF self-buffs are over the top, but there's a lot of other buffs in the game that are probably also too good as it stands.
Destroyer GWFs are already too tanky as they are in PvP, but apparently can't tank well enough in PvE. GWFs are also at the forefront of another central balancing problem: Scaling. They need to make sure that class performance is balanced the same at different levels of gear. One very concrete example of different scaling metrics would be how GWFs have feats that give them better stats for having better stats, making those feats stronger the more stats they have, while SWs have feats that simply scale by level.
I wouldn't say that a GWF is tanky in PvP , the sources of healing that he gets can be choosed by every class out there, thats not even an issue with the GWF, the only thing that GWF does have is higher Damage Resistance in combination with Tenacity DR , it offers them a higher value of the Tenacity DR that can't be pierced, there could be some few workarounds to make GWF slightly squishier.
1. increase the 3 classes base damage : HR , SW , CW base damage and for GWF change the stack system or 2. change the DR that GWF gains from sprint, unstoppable , countless scar with a block that decreases the incoming damage by x % or 3. remove a part of the GWF DR , therefor leaving it only for Unstoppable and give him prones on : Take Down , Punishing charge, Grand Fissure etc. therefor chaingin him into a Strike + Controller. ( which i might follow this up with another thread)
in PvE you cannot tank with a GWF , no one can do it, the DR doesn't do anything against the mobs or against a boss, it is not a tank, a GF can tank 80% of the incoming damage with the shield and a paladin can get himself immune with binding oath , thats what requires you to be a tank in this module, and DR alone doesn't make you tankier in PvE.
About scaling a GWF has only 1 feat called Disciple of War that gives him 25% out of recovery and armor pen as power , and in heroic feats 20% out of defense as power, sure they can be transformed into feats that should scale with the level.
well then you are the only one who doesn't think GWFs are tanky in pvp. Assuming TR's get the SE nerf and this GF rework reduces their burst, nobody is gonna kill GWFs in pvp. And since they can't tank in PvE they will only use this to ask for more survivability which increases power even more. Gonna be like mod 3 all over again. Which wouldn't be a problem except that they can self buff the bjesus out of their damage and set up IBS. Just keep repeating until the enemy is out of dodges.
oh yeah and F the prone idea. I'm not gonna deal with that mess for another year waiting for them to realize how broken prones are again
The gwf lobby is strong but nobody likes nerfs so I can't blame you all. I seriously hope the devs looked at how the changes affect all classes across the board like they said they are for about a year now
I do want to say that complete class balance will almost never happen in any game.
Of course not. First thing that's missing is a definition of what class balance is. Without it one cannot measure or at least judge balance or any measures to improve said balance.
I've seen countless talk of class balance this and class balance that. But I never saw a single definition of what this balance is supposed to be.
I'd love to know what Cryptic's official class balance definition is.
All of us old timer GF's have been through the nerf grinder before, it isn't the first time and it won't be the last. ITF has worked the way it has for a long time, the only change is that recently GF's became a "FotM". It's popularity rose, salty tears were shed which always equals nerf. Expect a DR80 cap, though it would be nice if after the nerf it was castable on the run.
ITF has worked the way it has for a long time, the only change is that recently GF's became a "FotM". It's popularity rose, salty tears were shed which always equals nerf.
I totally agree with the FoTM causality, and I've said it before.
I also think some of the PvP toxicity came oozing over to the PvE discussion and that added flame to the nerf-fire. We all know what PvP means in this game, if even we don't participate in that train-wreck.
Great start, now all we need is shocking nerf and cleric gift of faith nerf to make this party complete. Otherwise Dom will end up being a stupid bump game where two troll cleric comps rule. If burst damage is getting toned down healing should as well.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited July 2016
There's already plenty of GFs out there that talk about their snail paced DPS. So because you see a couple exceptions out there that deal stupid amounts of damage you want everyone to suffer? Yeah guess what, that happens with not just the GF. You'll see the occasional HR even who somehow deals DPS that defies the laws of the universe.
Anvil, knights challenge, buffs can produce some high numbers, but those are really specific situations where they can get away doing that. outside of that, there's nothing to write home about. Nerfing the GF to oblivion so it's slow and boring like the OP isn't going to benefit the game. I never do dailies with my OP because of that.
Great start, now all we need is shocking nerf and cleric gift of faith nerf to make this party complete. Otherwise Dom will end up being a stupid bump game where two troll cleric comps rule. If burst damage is getting toned down healing should as well.
amen to that, maybe there will actually be kills in dom
there are other Striker classes that are far more tankier than the GWF atm. TR is not goin to get their SE nerfed, but GF surerly needs their damage reduced , no one is goin to kill anyone, BUT SW and HR changes are coming sooo thats a huge boost. Yes GWF cannot tank in PvE, because DR is useless in PvE against heavy hits from mobs or bosses.It doesnt make sense when you say increasing surviability for PvE, will increase the power too , LOL , because it will be on separate paragon with no damage stacks, dunno how it can be as module 3 , but the self buffs they do look kinda huge, but thats because GWF has the lowest encounters base damage and compensate with 50% damage bonus buffs, which i advocate for a change. i Keep repeating but it seems alot of the classes that rely on DODGIN, their stamina is close to offering them more than 2-3 dodges, they can dodge freely for 7-8 times, which is unfair.
the prone idea comes in exchange to GWF Damage resistance, if they remove the GWF DR the class needs to accomplish a 2nd role as a controller and not a defender , reason why GWF cannot tank in PvE it's because of DR not doin anythin for PvE , in PvP the more DR you have the tankier you are through tenacity.
So this is how it will look like for PvP 1. a GWF that is a Striker + Controller (prones from those 3 encounters), but far far more squishier than it is right now : Ex : 15% DR from countless scar stripped away, DR from AC stripped away , DR from sprint stripped away , DR from Unstoppable replaced with 15-25% block the incoming damage , this would make the GWF being a squishy class in PVP: 2. a GWF that is a Striker + Defender , but place the defender role on the Sentinel paragon and replace the DR with BLOCK the incoming damage and give them a small shield atwill instead of reaping strike.
i think the first choice does make more sense honestly and it will achieve what you wish for... and it wont make GWF be irrelevant.
If SE doesn't get nerfed I would be shocked (no pun intended).
I said the part of increased survivability because that the reason used last "balancing" patch to bring back more tankiness to GWFs (destroyer) not just the sent path. It is a very common tactic for PvP players to use PvE as a reason to get their class buffed. Not a criticism just observation
I can't get behind the idea of prones. Too hard to balance because of the cc plus increased damage againts a prone person. The only way it can even be considered is like how whisperknife daily is. Not with takedown having a 6 second cooldown
I think most people are behind the idea of more damage=less tanky. I have yet to see it correctly implemented though. GWF is always gonna be hard to balance because you have no dodge. Dodging is just a huge mechanic in this game that I don't think they can balance you all effectively. They seem to either over buff or over nerf your survivability. Would not want that job
anyway will wait and see what the changes are and then I'm sure there will be lots of posts to react to. thing are getting boring anyway so change will be welcome
I really do hope they don't decrease the GF damage itself. Buffs are the major problem at the moment in making content trivial and needs to be addressed. I have a buff/debuff GF and it already takes me aeons to kill Baphomet with a striker companion. I agree that there are monster GFs out there doing insane damage in both pve and pvp and that should not be happening with a tank class. One could argue that the GWF should therefore be able to tank with the appropriate tree without any issues, just as the GF is able to do massive damage.
I think that in balancing terms, they really should address buffs as a whole. ITF and GF self-buffs are over the top, but there's a lot of other buffs in the game that are probably also too good as it stands.
Destroyer GWFs are already too tanky as they are in PvP, but apparently can't tank well enough in PvE. GWFs are also at the forefront of another central balancing problem: Scaling. They need to make sure that class performance is balanced the same at different levels of gear. One very concrete example of different scaling metrics would be how GWFs have feats that give them better stats for having better stats, making those feats stronger the more stats they have, while SWs have feats that simply scale by level.
I wouldn't say that a GWF is tanky in PvP , the sources of healing that he gets can be choosed by every class out there, thats not even an issue with the GWF, the only thing that GWF does have is higher Damage Resistance in combination with Tenacity DR , it offers them a higher value of the Tenacity DR that can't be pierced, there could be some few workarounds to make GWF slightly squishier.
1. increase the 3 classes base damage : HR , SW , CW base damage and for GWF change the stack system or 2. change the DR that GWF gains from sprint, unstoppable , countless scar with a block that decreases the incoming damage by x % or 3. remove a part of the GWF DR , therefor leaving it only for Unstoppable and give him prones on : Take Down , Punishing charge, Grand Fissure etc. therefor chaingin him into a Strike + Controller. ( which i might follow this up with another thread)
in PvE you cannot tank with a GWF , no one can do it, the DR doesn't do anything against the mobs or against a boss, it is not a tank, a GF can tank 80% of the incoming damage with the shield and a paladin can get himself immune with binding oath , thats what requires you to be a tank in this module, and DR alone doesn't make you tankier in PvE.
About scaling a GWF has only 1 feat called Disciple of War that gives him 25% out of recovery and armor pen as power , and in heroic feats 20% out of defense as power, sure they can be transformed into feats that should scale with the level.
well then you are the only one who doesn't think GWFs are tanky in pvp. Assuming TR's get the SE nerf and this GF rework reduces their burst, nobody is gonna kill GWFs in pvp. And since they can't tank in PvE they will only use this to ask for more survivability which increases power even more. Gonna be like mod 3 all over again. Which wouldn't be a problem except that they can self buff the bjesus out of their damage and set up IBS. Just keep repeating until the enemy is out of dodges.
oh yeah and F the prone idea. I'm not gonna deal with that mess for another year waiting for them to realize how broken prones are again
The gwf lobby is strong but nobody likes nerfs so I can't blame you all. I seriously hope the devs looked at how the changes affect all classes across the board like they said they are for about a year now
there are other Striker classes that are far more tankier than the GWF atm. TR is not goin to get their SE nerfed, but GF surerly needs their damage reduced , no one is goin to kill anyone, BUT SW and HR changes are coming sooo thats a huge boost. Yes GWF cannot tank in PvE, because DR is useless in PvE against heavy hits from mobs or bosses.It doesnt make sense when you say increasing surviability for PvE, will increase the power too , LOL , because it will be on separate paragon with no damage stacks, dunno how it can be as module 3 , but the self buffs they do look kinda huge, but thats because GWF has the lowest encounters base damage and compensate with 50% damage bonus buffs, which i advocate for a change. i Keep repeating but it seems alot of the classes that rely on DODGIN, their stamina is close to offering them more than 2-3 dodges, they can dodge freely for 7-8 times, which is unfair.
the prone idea comes in exchange to GWF Damage resistance, if they remove the GWF DR the class needs to accomplish a 2nd role as a controller and not a defender , reason why GWF cannot tank in PvE it's because of DR not doin anythin for PvE , in PvP the more DR you have the tankier you are through tenacity.
So this is how it will look like for PvP 1. a GWF that is a Striker + Controller (prones from those 3 encounters), but far far more squishier than it is right now : Ex : 15% DR from countless scar stripped away, DR from AC stripped away , DR from sprint stripped away , DR from Unstoppable replaced with 15-25% block the incoming damage , this would make the GWF being a squishy class in PVP: 2. a GWF that is a Striker + Defender , but place the defender role on the Sentinel paragon and replace the DR with BLOCK the incoming damage and give them a small shield atwill instead of reaping strike.
i think the first choice does make more sense honestly and it will achieve what you wish for... and it wont make GWF be irrelevant.
why would you want gwf to be a controller as well to fire off ibs with comfort after being fully buffed come on no wonder people already dislike the class.
There's already plenty of GFs out there that talk about their snail paced DPS. So because you see a couple exceptions out there that deal stupid amounts of damage you want everyone to suffer? Yeah guess what, that happens with not just the GF. You'll see the occasional HR even who somehow deals DPS that defies the laws of the universe.
Anvil, knights challenge, buffs can produce some high numbers, but those are really specific situations where they can get away doing that. outside of that, there's nothing to write home about. Nerfing the GF to oblivion so it's slow and boring like the OP isn't going to benefit the game. I never do dailies with my OP because of that.
What if the change targets just those buffs and just those situations. Oh wait I forgot this is the internet and this is a doom and gloom thread. Carry one theorizing how salty ones tears will be.
I believe ITF will get a nerf but I also think how knight valor works now makes all dps classes getting lazy to dodge red zones. I know people does not like nerf words, but a nerf to KV is not actually a nerf to GF but to other squizy classes. KV should has some time restrications(some CD) or only works in a small region near GF. I would happily to see KV to be useful only at particular situations.
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The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Yet, GWFs are running their builds from one of the two DPS guides and follow them faithfully as if it was some form of religion. Can you imagine a high il GWF insult other GWFs for not doing the damage output that he had? Because that's what's happening in-game right now.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
The reason the GF got a more effective DPS role is because the Paladin replaced them as the primary tank of this game.
Remember when the GF Conq capstone was before the nerfs? Power as your block meter went down and that got nerfed.
Remember when GF's blocked 100% and that got pushed down to 80%? Or tanking before mobs got insane arm pen?
And lifesteal and out of battle regeneration (that literally no one gives a **** about anymore) , etc, etc.
This game was flipped upside down to make room for a class that game didn't need. The SW got flung right out of the ******* galaxy till a trick got found to make them worth a darn again. That's next on the nerf chopping block.
It's all been damage-control since then.
They take away skills with one hand then sell overpowered stuff for Zen like the Dread, legacy mount bonuses, purple insignias, bonding stones, cub pets, etc.. with the other.
Here, let me sell you this overpowered ability while I take away this overpowered ability; SOSDD; Smoke and mirrors.
Release overpowerment for spike-revenue then spend 3 mods cleaning up the mess.
This game won't survive another mod 6 hard, come-to-Jesus reset. NWO has painted itself in the corner. It's going to require Houdini-like ability to get out of this one.
And think about the big picture. You're all grinding the same tiny content every day for AD. All of you!
Can you tell me you're not bored? The ITF, AS, MF,CA stuff makes the boring go faster: You get your AD, salvage and a microscopic chance at something worth-wile and that's it. Rising tide raises all ships. Boring and played out dungeons that take 15 minutes are gong to take 45 or longer. Why, so people can grin that their paingiver 98% of the time and they feel justified in blowing 2 grand on a video game. I don't know about you, but I want to blow through tedium as fast as possible, regardless who got the ego-relative paingiver #1 slot. It's like I'm dealing with second-grader logic.
oh yeah and F the prone idea.
The gwf lobby is strong but nobody likes nerfs so I can't blame you all. I seriously hope the devs looked at how the changes affect all classes across the board like they said they are for about a year now
My guess is Into the Fray, Knight's Valor, and Steel Defense will get nerfed. Those are the things that IMHO make the GF excel in PvE.
I've seen countless talk of class balance this and class balance that. But I never saw a single definition of what this balance is supposed to be.
I'd love to know what Cryptic's official class balance definition is.
I also think some of the PvP toxicity came oozing over to the PvE discussion and that added flame to the nerf-fire.
We all know what PvP means in this game, if even we don't participate in that train-wreck.
Anvil, knights challenge, buffs can produce some high numbers, but those are really specific situations where they can get away doing that. outside of that, there's nothing to write home about. Nerfing the GF to oblivion so it's slow and boring like the OP isn't going to benefit the game. I never do dailies with my OP because of that.
I said the part of increased survivability because that the reason used last "balancing" patch to bring back more tankiness to GWFs (destroyer) not just the sent path. It is a very common tactic for PvP players to use PvE as a reason to get their class buffed. Not a criticism just observation
I can't get behind the idea of prones. Too hard to balance because of the cc plus increased damage againts a prone person. The only way it can even be considered is like how whisperknife daily is. Not with takedown having a 6 second cooldown
I think most people are behind the idea of more damage=less tanky. I have yet to see it correctly implemented though. GWF is always gonna be hard to balance because you have no dodge. Dodging is just a huge mechanic in this game that I don't think they can balance you all effectively. They seem to either over buff or over nerf your survivability. Would not want that job
anyway will wait and see what the changes are and then I'm sure there will be lots of posts to react to. thing are getting boring anyway so change will be welcome
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