- Lostmauth set Keep the changes as proposed with 1 small alteration; the Damage has a 20%, unchangeable chance to Crit. with 100% severity. Since it does not Proc. off itself, a 1/5 chance to do ~6000 damage instead of ~3000 is more than an acceptable level of bonus damage vs the 50-60k+ that's occurring now.
Not actually possible without some kind of massive overhaul of a hardcoded mechanic. Effects that proc off a crit either always crit because they are piggybacked onto a critical attack, or they never crit because their ability to do so is disabled. Such effects do not have an independent chance to crit because there is no separate "attack roll" or however you'd want to describe it. It's just a passive effect generated by another attack. GCrush explained it back when Storm Spell was altered.
I never got the chance to see that. Interesting.
Neverwinter is programmed even worse than I thought.
Perhaps it should always Crit. then? Crit. Severity isn't the easiest thing to stack and while I personally don't object to flat Weapon Damage being the absolute as was originally intended I know that there are many people who would object far less if it had that small luxury of a bit more damage on Proc.
Changing the time of the Divine Protector is very good, but doest matter if it is 20sec, 10sec or 6 sec. What makes the OP invunerable is the yellow life from Templar Wrath. I play if my OP Tank like immortal sice lvl 35... so this must be nerfed too... if dont, does matter the time of divine Protector, in e 2 sec or 4 sec the op give himself a 150k of temporaly hit points. For me it could nerf Templar Wrath, put the time of Divine Protector to be at rank 4 10 sec like most of people ask, reduce de resistence to 50% from 80% and reduce the damege redirectioned to 80% from 100%. This must do better.
To the Shield of Faith, only OP healer use it, and everyone know that heal is not a problem... he can bond every one in the party and split the heal, can heal with passibe power and have a Att-will heal, so heal very very very fast... So heal is not a problem... but the problem is the resistence or.othera buffs he can give to se party, what is very low. The only resistence he can give to the party is the Shield of Faith. So, he can t reduce or resiste the hit kills that the party receive. For me, reducing 50% of resistence to 30% is not very good option, and power up the healinf bonus to 30% from 20% dont change anything, realy anything... but ita ok to reduce the time. For this become mor eaqual to tje other healer, the DC, each have alot of buffs for the party (ap bonus, resistence bonus, power bonus,...), the op have to do some buff to the psrty, more damege resistence for at least nerf the hit kills.
I keep seeing people post about OP threat and dps. As a GF tank, I've been in tons of groups with OP tanks who have aggro on bosses and such, the only time the turn my way is when I hit ET, then a few secs later they are back on the OP. DPS wise comparing a GF tank and OP tank they are basically the same, both have low dps but at the end of an instance the OP would be higher overall. Now a dps build GF is obviously going to be higher but that's his build, he certainly cant tank as well as a tank spec GF. GF's choices are tank or dps.....OP choices are tank or heal. The OP I know are going to have no issues with the nerf, they are good players and will continue on like the rest of us whos classes have been nerfed time and time again.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
- Lostmauth set Keep the changes as proposed with 1 small alteration; the Damage has a 20%, unchangeable chance to Crit. with 100% severity. Since it does not Proc. off itself, a 1/5 chance to do ~6000 damage instead of ~3000 is more than an acceptable level of bonus damage vs the 50-60k+ that's occurring now.
Not actually possible without some kind of massive overhaul of a hardcoded mechanic. Effects that proc off a crit either always crit because they are piggybacked onto a critical attack, or they never crit because their ability to do so is disabled. Such effects do not have an independent chance to crit because there is no separate "attack roll" or however you'd want to describe it. It's just a passive effect generated by another attack. GCrush explained it back when Storm Spell was altered.
I never got the chance to see that. Interesting.
Neverwinter is programmed even worse than I thought.
Perhaps it should always Crit. then? Crit. Severity isn't the easiest thing to stack and while I personally don't object to flat Weapon Damage being the absolute as was originally intended I know that there are many people who would object far less if it had that small luxury of a bit more damage on Proc.
Well, considering the damage hits people are reporting with other buffs no longer inflating the damage, I don't think it would be the end of the world to let it crit.
This would preserve the use by SW players to generate Soul Sparks, to some degree.
Another thought, with the reduction of the actual damage numbers, would it be fair to return the ability for certain DoT powers to multi-proc LM, if that's going to translate into a series of small hits instead of massive ones? I'm not really of an opinion either way, but would this tip the balance scale disastrously, or be of some consolation to affected players?
It seems the Divine Glow tooltip now reflects what it actually does. It is too bad it wasn't planned to make it work as originally worded since Devoted Clerics lost their similar great debuff utility with the High Prophet set.
If your tanking Orcus without DP with a GS under 3k and without any enchants higher than a 9 I would certainly like to see you post a vid.
Someone else posted that they can do it too, but hey they had a GS of 3.9k and pretty much rank 12s. If that is what it takes to do something that shouldn't require higher than rank 9s then that is NOT balanced.
Its not impossible on live at the moment to beat Orcus without Bubble (2955 iL, + Virt DC, Bulwark spec not optimised items yet), but there is a vast gulf between doing it without bubble and doing it with bubble.
Without Bubble, we struggle and it is a good close fight that can go either way. I have to pay attention to the green spheres and avoid them and generally work to beat Orcus.
With Bubble, we defeat Orcus in under 5 minutes and don't even blink at him. The Scoprions in LoL are basically the same difficulty as Orcus with bubble... and that is the problem and the reason I support making changes to the class. (Note the Scorpions don't really change in difficulty without bubble, but Orcus sure does.)
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Word! They ALWAYS forget the social aspect. When thay believe the lies of some vocal minority, that they desire a "challenge", they forget the (now no longer) silent majority, which even now struggle with the content and will efficiently be barred from participating that content; because even if they might still succeed with some stronger party member, said "challenge seeker" don't seek just the challenge to tackle the dungeon with them, instead preferring the "challenge" doing it in new record time with their 3.5k+ buddies and afterwards selling the loot for astronomical prices to the same characters which they would never take in a party and which therefore will never get their gear except by buying it from the AH..
Social aspect?? Well...i play this game since beta. Since CN was ingame i checked the LFGChannel ingame very often. I never saw this :" Hi. we are looking for some grp members to help each other and we are so good that we can carry you thru any dungeon, cuzz we think we as a community must help each other" Selling loot? Wot kinda loot do you mean?
I seriously question why the OP is being disabled to the point of uselessness. If you reduce the % of damage negated as well as the duration of the daily, then the OP will no longer be effective as a tank. One or the other, but both render the toon worthless. You are now saying that the toon is not playing as intended, but this is clearly inaccurate as the class is performing as a tank, exactly as intended. There are many methods which this could have been prevented from the onset. Since you did not implement any of these preventative measures, you are clearly changing the rules to punish players who worked hard to make the best of the toon's capabilities.
As it currently stands the OP is vulnerable in both PVE and PVP and such a dramatic change, while making it easier to kill in PVP will seriously compromise it as a tank in PVE. I think that this is wrong and I do not understand anyone who would support such a drastic alteration.
By comparison KV is permanent and 50% damage reduction for the party so why is the bubble being "permanent" such an issue - especially if you are looking to reduce the damage it negates as well?
This is an obvious attack on the OP as a tank, which will have the knock on effect of keeping a significant portion of the players from being accepted for PVE runs. It is hard enough to get the gear, even if you are a "wallet warrior" and the dungeon minimums will not be the standard for getting dungeon runs if this "plan" is followed. You will be making it harder for the newer to game players and increasing the divide between the elite and the developing players.
Please excuse me,I know nothing about Pallies, it's a serious question - reading from above and other posts it looks like OP was designed around Divine Protector. Is it really true that without it the class is so weak?
I seriously doubt that this one skill is the only one being useful from both the character and the party he's running with.
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
I seriously doubt that this one skill is the only one being useful from both the character and the party he's running with.
It really is the only skill the OP protector has of any real value, especiallly in PVE. Every other class can steal agro off the OP making it usless as a tank. It does little damage even in an uber build, maybe that's why everyone can steal agro. Its personal shield (shift key) does not block the damage to itself or party members- It absorbs a flat amount of damage, roughly 400k, and then breaks. So with bosses like Orcus hitting for 900k+ the shield breaks and the OP and everyone else dies, even with the bubble. Even at the current 80% damage reduction for the OP via DP if too many party members stand in the red it overloads the OP's ability to absorb the damage and kills the OP and thus the party. It takes skill and the right build to have a perma bubble, i.e. this is a small portion of OP's that can actually maintain said perma aspect w/o the AP(over haste) DC being in party. I have been in party with OP's that could not perma bubble even with said DC.
For all you lot that "want a challange", try Q'ing by yourself and going in with a full random group. Oh, wait that wasn't what you meant or had in mind. Speaking from both a OP and GF perspective, I can say outright, that if this change comes into effect as described that I will nolonger be tanking for any random 2k player, as I still want to be able to finish the dungeon in my life time. So, go ahead if you must (to apease the minority that would never run with a pug) and ensure that the masses will not get selected or be able to finish any of the 2k+ dungeons.
1) The OP needs a fix, that fix isn't really rooted in Divine Protector, but rather in the way many of the powers available to the class do not work.
2) Divine Protector needs to be reworked. No debate.
So here are some thoughts;
The Protector/Devotion dichotomy of the class causes a great number of the class' problems. All the other classes both builds do fundamentally the same thing (DPS/Heal/Tank) in slightly different ways and to slightly different effect (with a few quirky options out there as well). However the OP wants to either be a Tank or a Healer and so its powers work in strange ways or do not work at all in the process of trying to achieve this effect.
General Tank Powers: "Forces the target to attack" needs to be reworked to "Marks the Target". The duration can remain the same, but GF marks are a mechanic that works and that other classes can interact with. In comparison I don't think there is a single OP power that "Forces the target to attack" that works at all. Of course making "Forces the target to attack" work as described would be fine, but for overall game benefit I believe just replacing it with Marks that generate agro the same as GF marks would be better.
Individual Tank Powers:
Shift Shield: This just needs to have a shorter casting time.
Tab Taunt: Refreshes too slowly in combat, given it is the main means of producing agro repeatedly in a wide area. Also seems to have limited effect for generating agro.
Radiant Strike: Works fine.
Valiant Strike: Should give Tank OPs a DPS boost after its third swing not a DR boost as that is what Shielding strike is for. (DPS builds threat.)
Burning Light: I really like this power for the CC effect and AP gain it provides. The Protection healing buff that it provides is irrelevant, and would be much better being some other small buff for all PCs in the AoE. Currently it seems that forced movement effects include and interrupt effect, which stops this power from being used effectively against a number of CC immune enemies, if that is an error it should be fixed.
Divine Judgement: Needs a PvE DPS boost, but is fine.
Aura of Courage: Fine.
Sacred Weapon: Needs to be a buff for all your attacks, not just your single target ones (and what does that even mean, when attacks always use a cone for the OP?).
Smite: Fine.
Heroism: I'm just not sure where the desire to nerf this is coming from. I would suggest a reduction to a 15s maximum (6/9/12/15) and 50% duration in PvP (assuming the PvP is the main reason for the current changes). Yes that would let OPs have perma-Heroism, but as Orcus (for example) can take 150000 plus points of damage off in a single strike reliably that still makes the higher end ops that can produce that effect have to work to keep standing with their party.
Lay on Hands: Fine
Bane: This power needs to be fixed so that it correctly ignores PCs when used by Protection OPs, otherwise it is fine.
Aura of Truth: Fine.
Aura of Vengeance: The fixes here seem fine.
Oath Strike: Needs a slight DPS boost, or to accurately report its DPS. Needs to actually force the target to attack.
Templar's Wrath: Should respect all the temp HP rules. Should give 20/30/40/50% of max HP as Temps as a flat bonus. Perhaps a slight damage boost.
Aura of Wisdom: Fine
Binding Oath: Needs to actually force the target to attack. Should just take 50% damage while it is active and then do the 20% out at the end. This would then stop the "perma-Binding" builds being a problem.
Cleansing Touch: The healing effect on this is tiny for Tanks, and its been a long time since I bothered trying to use it to break CC (the main reason I stopped is it didn't seem to work, perhaps someone with more experience can clarify).
Aura of Protection: Fine
Shielding Strike: Fine
Banishment: This power is useless, it has been useless since Preview of the class. In any fight where you would want it to work the mobs are all CC immune and it doesn't work, so it doesn't do anything. If this flipped, so the party became invulnerable for a short duration, but could not damage anything for that duration (say 10s), but could be healed, it might would potentially be a useful power as it would actually work in the fights where it mattered that it work.
Shield of Faith: This power suffers from the class dichotomy issue. The power is trying to do too much and thus becomes problematic, and brings about the nerfs. I would think giving a 50% damage mitigation and a 10% healing boost for Protection OPs would be fine, and those numbers reversed for Devotion OPs (not sure it would be worth it for DevOPs then though).
Aura of Wrath: This power just doesn't work because your hit points just don't go down enough to make it do anything. Oddly I suspect this would be a better Devotion option, while No Pity No Mercy would be a good Protection option. Especially as it would make the Light path more useful to Protection paladins.
Divine Touch: Actually needs to deal heavy radiant damage, instead of being a feather-weight for DPS.
Vow of Enmity: Fine
Absolution: Scrap it and try again.
Divine Protection: I suspect with the changes outlined above, the current proposal for DP would become a sound option. Leaving the rest of the class as is however makes me believe this power should be scrapped and replaced,
Aura of Radiance: Needs to tick faster, as it is now people are running it hoping to get a threat boost, but fixing the threat of other other powers that are supposed to force attacks would make that less of an issue, but faster damage ticks would make the power remain relevant.
Relentless Avenger: Needs to be fixed so it cannot target PCs at all for Protection OPs. I understand why people want it to loose the knockback, but I believe the knockback makes the power require thought before running rather than being just another always on bar power like Templar's Wrath and so should remain as is.
Aura of Valor: With the changes to remove Divine Protector this power may actually become relevant, as long as it works as written. The level pips should be 10% increments however (so 40/50/60/70% HP).
Circle of Power: Fine.
Aura of Solitude: Boost. Its a solo power and really only relevant to the end game anyway.
Post edited by obsidiancran3 on
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
. - Firstly to get it out of the way; The Lostmauth set. The change is fine and fair. Shocking huh? Each of you complaining that this destroys or breaks XX class, just stop. No it doesn't, the class you have been playing has been broken since you added the Lostmauth set to it. It is simply being returned to the way it should have been from the beginning.
I accept this argument. I cannot accept that this review is done after 1 year.
. - The DC, or more specifically; Gift of Haste. This was broken from the moment it was implemented, and everyone knows it. I have never and will never use it; my Faith Cleric out heals everything but a OoD Pally and provides good buffs/debuffs on top of that. My Righteous Cleric buffs/debuffs on a top level and does great DPS as well.
you're right about GoH only. But if you consider the consequences on the overall virtuous path, then this change makes it close to irrelevant. Finally this is not a nerf of a power, it's the nerf of the path. Fortunately after my tests, I can live with it for the time being at 3.8k.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
1) The OP needs a fix, that fix isn't really rooted in Divine Protector, but rather in the way many of the powers available to the class do not work.
Burning Light: I really like this power, however as it is easily interrupted (eg forced movement effects) its nigh impossible to use in most fights where its bonuses would matter (as the CC effect never matters in those fights). As a Tank I would also much rather it hand out some sort of buff to the party than get the healing buff. If forced movement no longer interrupted this power when you were under a CC immunity effect it would be a great improvement to the power.
Absolutely not. Burning light with casting time or not is one of the best powers a tank has. If you need to make a change just have it do double damage to cc immune. Otherwise dont touch it, its great for CC and it requires skill to decide how long to use it. It also can heal in one tree and can be made to heal in other tree. Just get the right mount combo and you got a burst flash healing over time effect even though your an OP. I think most of your changes go to far, I have suggestions earlier in the thread that much less of a divergence from what we have now. Paladin does not need a revamp it needs tweaking.
I seriously doubt that this one skill is the only one being useful from both the character and the party he's running with.
It really is the only skill the OP protector has of any real value, especiallly in PVE. Every other class can steal agro off the OP making it usless as a tank. It does little damage even in an uber build, maybe that's why everyone can steal agro. Its personal shield (shift key) does not block the damage to itself or party members- It absorbs a flat amount of damage, roughly 400k, and then breaks. So with bosses like Orcus hitting for 900k+ the shield breaks and the OP and everyone else dies, even with the bubble. Even at the current 80% damage reduction for the OP via DP if too many party members stand in the red it overloads the OP's ability to absorb the damage and kills the OP and thus the party. It takes skill and the right build to have a perma bubble, i.e. this is a small portion of OP's that can actually maintain said perma aspect w/o the AP(over haste) DC being in party. I have been in party with OP's that could not perma bubble even with said DC.
For all you lot that "want a challenge", try Q'ing by yourself and going in with a full random group. Oh, wait that wasn't what you meant or had in mind. Speaking from both a OP and GF perspective, I can say outright, that if this change comes into effect as described that I will no longer be tanking for any random 2k player, as I still want to be able to finish the dungeon in my life time. So, go ahead if you must (to appease the minority that would never run with a pug) and ensure that the masses will not get selected or be able to finish any of the 2k+ dungeons.
Thank you for answer. However no one will convince me that being an immortal through the whole run is either cool or entertaining. At least not for all of us of course...even if it was for some of OP's it's now being changed just like it was made times before with other classes.
I, as a GF, tried to think about a skill that could be named as a Pallies bubble. The only reasonable one is Knight's Valor.
If it was nerfed (not sure how actually...) it would still be useful. As for now it shields the party for 50% of incoming damage which is soaked up by the GF. Let's say it's nerfed by a half like the bubble was. Would I take it of my bar? the answer is "no". Would I ever slot a skill that makes the whole party immortal in a serious play? again, the answer is "no".
When the class was introduced, I remember many of GF's hanged their boots and switched to OP. I remember some smart ones analyzed the situation and indeed said that OP has some serious advantage over the GF. ONE, I said ONE of them was the Divine Protector. There are still many many others - naming one 360 degrees blocking, passive 500% threat, ect ect.
I'm 100% sure that the class will lift itself, after some smart folks will find a way to utilize the tools it already has. If, Divine Protector, is the only useful ability OP has - than it has to be the worst designed class ever created in NWN.
If the bubble was so important, than indeed the class should be renamed to "bubbleadin"
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
I seriously doubt that this one skill is the only one being useful from both the character and the party he's running with.
It really is the only skill the OP protector has of any real value, especiallly in PVE. Every other class can steal agro off the OP making it usless as a tank. It does little damage even in an uber build, maybe that's why everyone can steal agro. Its personal shield (shift key) does not block the damage to itself or party members- It absorbs a flat amount of damage, roughly 400k, and then breaks. So with bosses like Orcus hitting for 900k+ the shield breaks and the OP and everyone else dies, even with the bubble. Even at the current 80% damage reduction for the OP via DP if too many party members stand in the red it overloads the OP's ability to absorb the damage and kills the OP and thus the party. It takes skill and the right build to have a perma bubble, i.e. this is a small portion of OP's that can actually maintain said perma aspect w/o the AP(over haste) DC being in party. I have been in party with OP's that could not perma bubble even with said DC.
For all you lot that "want a challenge", try Q'ing by yourself and going in with a full random group. Oh, wait that wasn't what you meant or had in mind. Speaking from both a OP and GF perspective, I can say outright, that if this change comes into effect as described that I will no longer be tanking for any random 2k player, as I still want to be able to finish the dungeon in my life time. So, go ahead if you must (to appease the minority that would never run with a pug) and ensure that the masses will not get selected or be able to finish any of the 2k+ dungeons.
I'm 100% sure that the class will lift itself, after some smart folks will find a way to utilize the tools it already has. If, Divine Protector, is the only useful ability OP has - than it has to be the worst designed class ever created in NWN. :
Dunno what tools you speak of. Take a look at the OP healer. All of it's unused powers, either heal, or increasing healing, both of which are useless. It only has TWO options for mitigating incoming damage for the party. The DC has several.
The tank has a few powers that just hard taunt one target. RA only @#$%es people off. The GF doesn't even need to worry about taunting an entire mob because it has perma KV to soak up damage for the party, which the OP tank does not so it needs even more mass agro.
Changing the time of the Divine Protector is very good, but doest matter if it is 20sec, 10sec or 6 sec. What makes the OP invunerable is the yellow life from Templar Wrath. I play if my OP Tank like immortal sice lvl 35... so this must be nerfed too... if dont, does matter the time of divine Protector, in e 2 sec or 4 sec the op give himself a 150k of temporaly hit points.
For me it could nerf Templar Wrath, put the time of Divine Protector to be at rank 4 10 sec like most of people ask, reduce de resistence to 50% from 80% and reduce the damege redirectioned to 80% from 100%. This must do better.
To the Shield of Faith, only OP healer use it, and everyone know that heal is not a problem... he can bond every one in the party and split the heal, can heal with passibe power and have a Att-will heal, so heal very very very fast...
So heal is not a problem... but the problem is the resistence or.othera buffs he can give to se party, what is very low. The only resistence he can give to the party is the Shield of Faith. So, he can t reduce or resiste the hit kills that the party receive.
For me, reducing 50% of resistence to 30% is not very good option, and power up the healinf bonus to 30% from 20% dont change anything, realy anything... but ita ok to reduce the time.
For this become mor eaqual to tje other healer, the DC, each have alot of buffs for the party (ap bonus, resistence bonus, power bonus,...), the op have to do some buff to the psrty, more damege resistence for at least nerf the hit kills.
Sorry buddy, against Orcus the temp HP given simply keeps you off the floor for his lighter attacks. What keeps you alive there tends to be binding oath, even with bubble and temp HP you can be 1 shot without binding. I've had Orcus hit my OP for a single hit of over a million before reductions and well over 300k after the reductions. Then he tends to follow up with another few hits in quick succession for another couple hundred thousand each. They are already nerfing binding oath time by making echos of light proc once per 15sec (which is a massive cooldown), taking away more stuff like temp HP (which already vanishes at a few points in the Orcus fight because "you're not in combat" for all of 1.5 seconds) would really make an OP useless.
I am going to clear up some common misconceptions, as have several others. 1. Devine Protector DOES NOT make the OP Imortal, nor does it provide full imortality to the party, assuming the entire party (or any of the party) actually get the strings. Op's still die with the bubble up and so can party members even when stringed to it if the damage is high enough, again assuming that every one got strings. 2. The proposed change is a more than 80% reduction in time with a 30% reduction in mitigated damage. 3. The OP threat actually works (Tr's can steal threat from an OP)- it takes extremely high dps to steal threat off a GF, (no offence Tr's not saying you don't do damage just saying as a class you have the least threat generation) 4. That it is easy to be a "perma" bubble- even with a "perma"-build it still takes skillfully playing said build to be able to maintain a bubble. The nerf (or correction to) haste will make this even harder. 5. That the ones who can and do use a perma-build are doing so to eleminate the challange others might have, quite often the exact oppisite is true. Usually the groups looking for a perma-bubble are the bairly 2k players that or have died so many times they want to quit the game as they find it unplayable, and then the small group of "farmers" looking to beat their run times. None of these groups are complaining about this "so-called invincibality".
Now for the apples to apples bit: Damage resistance: OP - 2 powers that can generate a max increase of 25% combined vs. GF 7 powers that can generate more than 130% increase in damage resistance Party dynamics focusing on Devine protector vs Knights valor: OP takes 100% of the stringed party members damage and before getting "hit" with it reduces this by 80%, with again a max ability to increase its own damage resistance of 25%- Knights Valor the GF reduces the damage party members take (with-in range) by 50% and is hit by this damage with out mitigation, but the GF has the ability to increase its damage resistance by by over 100%- so the OP gets to mitigate more damage while the daily power is active but it has less then 20% of the ability to increase its damage resistance for the entire run making it highly vunerable even during its daily when compared to the GF. For said implied "invincibility" the OP also has one of the lowest dps output in the game even it its best dps tree.
arguably the OP is able to better shield the entire party against damage but is clearly far more vunerable to its own death from doing so and as we all should have learned by now if the tank dies so does the entire party.
As I said, I play both classes. I never hung up my boots on my GF despite several mods where it was difficult to be included in a dungeon party at all, because I found a way to make my build work as I will for almost anything that gets changed with my OP. This isn't a class balancing change that is being suggested, it is a class (protector OP) killing change. As I also said way back on page 3, maybe, the class needs to be balanced but this is not the answer. The point still stands that this does not hurt the already uber groups, who are "complaining about it not being challanging". It hurts the 2k players that desperattly want to be included in a party and actually finish a run.
As it is lovingly designated by the players either healidin or bubbledin, Paladin was the compromised middle ground name. Just saying, arguably it could be the worst designed class in NWN as it lacks functioning and usable skills down both protection and devotion.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
and the game's REQUIREMENT that I be efficient about AD generation if I'm to actually get anything or do anything other than **** around for **** and giggles, means I'm almost never running epic content these days. It's all about doing around 20 instances of Cloak Tower/ToS and invoking
Yes, indeed, there were those glorious days of Leadership via gateway: You could do you grind for the staff of life without even logging on, without stress and hassels, even from your real life work, and then, in the evening, all the time you had available, you could do stuff you actually ENJOY; if it's trying to beat some boss and routinely failing, that's okay, since you didn't waste time needed for speedruns of small dungeons for some AD.
Yea, the game was fun these days....
you are wrong at least now i will able to cast break the spirit before they kill the monsters. just you will need more debuffs-buffs to make fast runs.
I seriously question why the OP is being disabled to the point of uselessness. If you reduce the % of damage negated as well as the duration of the daily, then the OP will no longer be effective as a tank. One or the other, but both render the toon worthless. You are now saying that the toon is not playing as intended, but this is clearly inaccurate as the class is performing as a tank, exactly as intended. There are many methods which this could have been prevented from the onset. Since you did not implement any of these preventative measures, you are clearly changing the rules to punish players who worked hard to make the best of the toon's capabilities.
As it currently stands the OP is vulnerable in both PVE and PVP and such a dramatic change, while making it easier to kill in PVP will seriously compromise it as a tank in PVE. I think that this is wrong and I do not understand anyone who would support such a drastic alteration.
By comparison KV is permanent and 50% damage reduction for the party so why is the bubble being "permanent" such an issue - especially if you are looking to reduce the damage it negates as well?
This is an obvious attack on the OP as a tank, which will have the knock on effect of keeping a significant portion of the players from being accepted for PVE runs. It is hard enough to get the gear, even if you are a "wallet warrior" and the dungeon minimums will not be the standard for getting dungeon runs if this "plan" is followed. You will be making it harder for the newer to game players and increasing the divide between the elite and the developing players.
Please excuse me,I know nothing about Pallies, it's a serious question - reading from above and other posts it looks like OP was designed around Divine Protector. Is it really true that without it the class is so weak?
I seriously doubt that this one skill is the only one being useful from both the character and the party he's running with.
It's the only skill a Paladin has to protect the party. It's similar to KV but was better. Now it's far worse than KV. Paladins also lack proper agro management since binding oath doesn't do what it claims.
i think ill just make a new build to spite the nerfs. lets face it, they take away 75% my bubble time, ill just stack 75% more recovery, and forget about being any kind of damage dealer. if i can keep it up every 8s, then that will be that. 2s of hurt, for 6 of invincibility, and when it comes down to it, the idiots who stand in the res the other 2 seconds probably deserve to die. if anything, these changes will only make me think twice a bout what classes i bring into top tier dungeons like CN all the more... ever think of bringing your 2k guildies who just got to end game to there? not anymore, solo queue and help parties finish? not gonna happen with some 2k geared scrub and no enchants in their gear.. think before u act, is all. and ill be double sure to do that NOW starting thrusday. goodbye pugs, ghello even further discrimination agains lower dps, and heal only support, cause ill definatly need the AP gain buffs now. after thurs hits, ill never run with a healer pally again, since their heals wont be needed with my new build, only ap gain. of course, i wont be in 2nd or 3rd in dps, but i can live with that.
What this will do for me is get me to not invest anymore in the game. Clearly they have no respect for peoples time and money only to wipe it all out without a single regret.
0
instynctiveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,885Arc User
I know that no one really cares.. but after running eToS on preview with ~2.4k ilvl characters (Prot OP, Virt DC and 3 DPS), there was very little change. In fact, I never once used Divine Protector... the DC did a bulk of the shielding. I just aggro'd things, kept my Temp HP maxed as best I could and let DPS do their job.
After testing Gift of Haste on Preview, I have to say that I like the idea of not trying to declare what procs it and what not and simply changing the mechanic of the feat. However, having 1%AP/second for you and all players around you by a Tier 3 feat still seems outrageous. No cooldown means this is constantly active, especially in PvP with Combat Triage active.
Also without Gift of Haste as an attractive mechanic, the entire Virteous feat tree becomes utterly useless. Most of the feats, have very low to no impact. The most valuable ones are "Last Wishes" which is a Tier 1 feat.
While I do not want to tell anybody how to do their job, I'd like to recomment to either put at least a 3-5 second cooldown on Gift of Haste or maybe buffing it back (not to orginal state) and moving it deeper into the Virteous tree. The concept of Healing over Time just does not work well with the current state of the game. People get hit for big numbers and require direct heals, Faithful DCs exactly fill this role and since higher geared players have incredible substain themselves the Righteous Tree and pure debuff/damage dealer DCs reign the "meta". While Faithful can at least stack the heals on full HP members, there is outstandingly much healing wasted on full HP members from Virteous DCs.
Surely this detailed Class Balance maybe a hard task saved for another day, however nobody wants to see Gift of Haste requireing yet another rework.
I know that no one really cares.. but after running eToS on preview with ~2.4k ilvl characters (Prot OP, Virt DC and 3 DPS), there was very little change. In fact, I never once used Divine Protector... the DC did a bulk of the shielding. I just aggro'd things, kept my Temp HP maxed as best I could and let DPS do their job.
I really wish people would stop freaking out.
Yesterday I did test "bubbleless" run eToS. I asked party if it is not problem. All agreed, they were happy (not kidding) to get chance to learn avoid red zones . I had aura of prot, aura of wisdom, binding, templar wrath and circle of power (very nice, I got 30% more temp HP). With all of it I had 80% DR without sanctuary. To my surprise, it was one of my easiest runs. I did not avoid red zones and had no problem. I have justice pally with only 2300 gear. In the other hand, my DPS was very low (as allways), but I had no problem to survive. Before starting the fight I did binding oath, run to enemies, did templar and circle. I did sanctuary before first binding blast, but when i got full temp hp (about 330000), I simply let binding oath blows to my face without problem.
Svatá Prdelka game - Human/real life - ??? OP 18k+ Devotion/Justice - Light
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
One thing that irritates me:
As the devs changed the tooltip for Divine Glow, they obviously looked at the power, so why, why didn't they fix the big issue with it?
I am of course referring to the fact that it does not proc weapon enchants like Dread that specificallysay they trigger on encounter power use.
It does not say "trigger on encounter powers other than the DC Divine Glow". False advertising, eh?
There are actually a few other powers with the same issue but this one is particularly irritating as it is used by practically all DCs, at least in PvE.
So why can't you fix it? There is no way this is working as intended.
1) The OP needs a fix, that fix isn't really rooted in Divine Protector, but rather in the way many of the powers available to the class do not work.
Burning Light: I really like this power, however as it is easily interrupted (eg forced movement effects) its nigh impossible to use in most fights where its bonuses would matter (as the CC effect never matters in those fights). As a Tank I would also much rather it hand out some sort of buff to the party than get the healing buff. If forced movement no longer interrupted this power when you were under a CC immunity effect it would be a great improvement to the power.
Absolutely not. Burning light with casting time or not is one of the best powers a tank has. If you need to make a change just have it do double damage to cc immune. Otherwise dont touch it, its great for CC and it requires skill to decide how long to use it. It also can heal in one tree and can be made to heal in other tree. Just get the right mount combo and you got a burst flash healing over time effect even though your an OP. I think most of your changes go to far, I have suggestions earlier in the thread that much less of a divergence from what we have now. Paladin does not need a revamp it needs tweaking.
Hmm, what I wrote wasn't very clear was it.
I mean: a) Burning Light light is great as it is. b) It could be improved if forced movement didn't interrupt it. (Though it may not interrupt it, it may be that most forced movement powers of monsters also have an interrupt effect specifically so being CC immune allows you to continue casting even if forced to move.) c) The power would be improved if it handed out a buff to the party instead of giving the tank a healing buff. (This is the tertiary effect of the power for tanks, not the secondary CC effect.)
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
The concept of Healing over Time just does not work well with the current state of the game. People get hit for big numbers and require direct heals.
i don't agree with your statement. As V-DC, I can heal big numbers with HoT powers (120k+ in full heal setup), everywhere and everytime. There's no difference between a F and V DC if you know how to manage your healing powers and regardless the healing mechanic. Please have a look at the end boons of the new EE campaign: another 24k heals. Does this game need healers anymore?
However, having 1%AP/second for you and all players around you by a Tier 3 feat still seems outrageous. No cooldown means this is constantly active, especially in PvP with Combat Triage active.[...] While I do not want to tell anybody how to do their job, I'd like to recomment to either put at least a 3-5 second cooldown on Gift of Haste
I don't agree with this as well. Constant GoH up is the only thing that a V-DC can do better than other paths. If you remove this, then the V path is really dead. Some V-DCs have already tested the new GoH mechanic and the overall effect is quite small: an AP cloack can do better. What you're proposing is a nerf over a nerf: not acceptable imo.
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
I know that no one really cares.. but after running eToS on preview with ~2.4k ilvl characters (Prot OP, Virt DC and 3 DPS), there was very little change. In fact, I never once used Divine Protector... the DC did a bulk of the shielding. I just aggro'd things, kept my Temp HP maxed as best I could and let DPS do their job.
I really wish people would stop freaking out.
This is exactly what I meant to say. So many changes were announced and implemented. yet I do not see any class being "wrecked" sooner or later it lifts up with a creative build that makes the job done.
As I claimed in my initial mail, I have zero knowledge about the class but ran many times with a Pally and it was always cool when we stomped the last bug/ or dragon/ or dragon queen / or demon prince - you know, right ?
Class was nerfed because dev's decided to do so, and the most reasonable thing to do is either adapt or ?
Have a good day everyone!
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
I know that no one really cares.. but after running eToS on preview with ~2.4k ilvl characters (Prot OP, Virt DC and 3 DPS), there was very little change. In fact, I never once used Divine Protector... the DC did a bulk of the shielding. I just aggro'd things, kept my Temp HP maxed as best I could and let DPS do their job.
I really wish people would stop freaking out.
This is exactly what I meant to say. So many changes were announced and implemented. yet I do not see any class being "wrecked" sooner or later it lifts up with a creative build that makes the job done.
As I claimed in my initial mail, I have zero knowledge about the class but ran many times with a Pally and it was always cool when we stomped the last bug/ or dragon/ or dragon queen / or demon prince - you know, right ?
Class was nerfed because dev's decided to do so, and the most reasonable thing to do is either adapt or ?
Have a good day everyone!
True that you play Gf then lets see..
Block now migates 50% instead of 80%
Kv can be held at a maximum 6 sec then goes at a cool-down for 20 sec(lest see how much it will be used)
Gf damage will be reduced by overall 80% (due to nerfing all heavy hitting powers)
etc etc
What the devs decided to nerf Gfs the most reasonable thing is to adapt or ?? am sure that is what would happen
Very solid comment for a class you don't know anything about ....
AP DC: Is not nerfed. They are even worse now. You can ramp up a disgusting AP gain rate due to the haste still stacking and now being over time. Divinity sunburst seems to be buggy as hell and sometimes does nothing for AP gain. The new AP DC should use divine glow, healing word, and bastion of health and go full top line cause the Haste stacking is just disgustingly op now.
Tankadin: These changes are ill thought out. If I were a dev in the room during the changes pitch, the first thing I would do is make sanctuary actually instantaneous just like other classes evasion skills. Part of the reason the crying over sanctuary was not so bad was cause the bubble and heroism made up for it. Now we have to actually rely on ssanctuary and 9/10 of the time either the sanctuary takes too long to start working OR even worse we go into a guardian fighter pose and it never works. Furthermore Heroism has a 1-1.5 cast time that is counted in the duration which is unfair and stupid. Both DP and Heroism should have a similar activation to shield of faith, instant. Instead they have a cast animation that can be interrupted and has very often caused failed cast daily uses where you lose your daily points but never gain the buff due to how the AP drain or death happens during the cast time. Heroism before the patch was a paladins only method of avoiding CC. Sanctuary was always just a heal spell for after combat ends due to its unreliable nature. Also on a side note there is an issue with Vigilance and barrier for the Bulwark line, Barrier was not functioning at all if I had vigilance chosen in the feat line. Once I unchose vigilance I started gaining barrier charges again and barrier started giving me a shield. And I dunno if its intended or not but shield spells for pallies are stacking. I can cast absolution, the Daily feat that gives me an uber shield, and barrier and they all stack.
I know that no one really cares.. but after running eToS on preview with ~2.4k ilvl characters (Prot OP, Virt DC and 3 DPS), there was very little change. In fact, I never once used Divine Protector... the DC did a bulk of the shielding. I just aggro'd things, kept my Temp HP maxed as best I could and let DPS do their job.
I really wish people would stop freaking out.
Yesterday I did test "bubbleless" run eToS. I asked party if it is not problem. All agreed, they were happy (not kidding) to get chance to learn avoid red zones . I had aura of prot, aura of wisdom, binding, templar wrath and circle of power (very nice, I got 30% more temp HP). With all of it I had 80% DR without sanctuary. To my surprise, it was one of my easiest runs. I did not avoid red zones and had no problem. I have justice pally with only 2300 gear. In the other hand, my DPS was very low (as allways), but I had no problem to survive. Before starting the fight I did binding oath, run to enemies, did templar and circle. I did sanctuary before first binding blast, but when i got full temp hp (about 330000), I simply let binding oath blows to my face without problem.
What exactly did you provide to your team with that setup? Sure you managed to stay alive but aside from a bit of DR and some AP gain you were likely dead weight. A GF in your place would have soaked up damage and greatly buffed DPS.
This is the issue, OP's will still be able to run stuff but they won't be a useful member of the team when you have to focus your powers on keeping yourself standing and not on contributing to your team in a meaningful way. If a OP can't keep the others in the team alive, can't provide decent DPS, can't heal, can't keep threat then who would want one in the team?
Comments
Neverwinter is programmed even worse than I thought.
Perhaps it should always Crit. then?
Crit. Severity isn't the easiest thing to stack and while I personally don't object to flat Weapon Damage being the absolute as was originally intended I know that there are many people who would object far less if it had that small luxury of a bit more damage on Proc.
For me it could nerf Templar Wrath, put the time of Divine Protector to be at rank 4 10 sec like most of people ask, reduce de resistence to 50% from 80% and reduce the damege redirectioned to 80% from 100%. This must do better.
To the Shield of Faith, only OP healer use it, and everyone know that heal is not a problem... he can bond every one in the party and split the heal, can heal with passibe power and have a Att-will heal, so heal very very very fast...
So heal is not a problem... but the problem is the resistence or.othera buffs he can give to se party, what is very low. The only resistence he can give to the party is the Shield of Faith. So, he can t reduce or resiste the hit kills that the party receive.
For me, reducing 50% of resistence to 30% is not very good option, and power up the healinf bonus to 30% from 20% dont change anything, realy anything... but ita ok to reduce the time.
For this become mor eaqual to tje other healer, the DC, each have alot of buffs for the party (ap bonus, resistence bonus, power bonus,...), the op have to do some buff to the psrty, more damege resistence for at least nerf the hit kills.
DPS wise comparing a GF tank and OP tank they are basically the same, both have low dps but at the end of an instance the OP would be higher overall.
Now a dps build GF is obviously going to be higher but that's his build, he certainly cant tank as well as a tank spec GF. GF's choices are tank or dps.....OP choices are tank or heal.
The OP I know are going to have no issues with the nerf, they are good players and will continue on like the rest of us whos classes have been nerfed time and time again.
This would preserve the use by SW players to generate Soul Sparks, to some degree.
Another thought, with the reduction of the actual damage numbers, would it be fair to return the ability for certain DoT powers to multi-proc LM, if that's going to translate into a series of small hits instead of massive ones? I'm not really of an opinion either way, but would this tip the balance scale disastrously, or be of some consolation to affected players?
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Without Bubble, we struggle and it is a good close fight that can go either way. I have to pay attention to the green spheres and avoid them and generally work to beat Orcus.
With Bubble, we defeat Orcus in under 5 minutes and don't even blink at him. The Scoprions in LoL are basically the same difficulty as Orcus with bubble... and that is the problem and the reason I support making changes to the class. (Note the Scorpions don't really change in difficulty without bubble, but Orcus sure does.)
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Selling loot? Wot kinda loot do you mean?
I seriously doubt that this one skill is the only one being useful from both the character and the party he's running with.
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
For all you lot that "want a challange", try Q'ing by yourself and going in with a full random group. Oh, wait that wasn't what you meant or had in mind. Speaking from both a OP and GF perspective, I can say outright, that if this change comes into effect as described that I will nolonger be tanking for any random 2k player, as I still want to be able to finish the dungeon in my life time. So, go ahead if you must (to apease the minority that would never run with a pug) and ensure that the masses will not get selected or be able to finish any of the 2k+ dungeons.
2) Divine Protector needs to be reworked. No debate.
So here are some thoughts;
The Protector/Devotion dichotomy of the class causes a great number of the class' problems. All the other classes both builds do fundamentally the same thing (DPS/Heal/Tank) in slightly different ways and to slightly different effect (with a few quirky options out there as well). However the OP wants to either be a Tank or a Healer and so its powers work in strange ways or do not work at all in the process of trying to achieve this effect.
General Tank Powers:
"Forces the target to attack" needs to be reworked to "Marks the Target". The duration can remain the same, but GF marks are a mechanic that works and that other classes can interact with. In comparison I don't think there is a single OP power that "Forces the target to attack" that works at all. Of course making "Forces the target to attack" work as described would be fine, but for overall game benefit I believe just replacing it with Marks that generate agro the same as GF marks would be better.
Individual Tank Powers:
Shift Shield: This just needs to have a shorter casting time.
Tab Taunt: Refreshes too slowly in combat, given it is the main means of producing agro repeatedly in a wide area. Also seems to have limited effect for generating agro.
Radiant Strike: Works fine.
Valiant Strike: Should give Tank OPs a DPS boost after its third swing not a DR boost as that is what Shielding strike is for. (DPS builds threat.)
Burning Light: I really like this power for the CC effect and AP gain it provides. The Protection healing buff that it provides is irrelevant, and would be much better being some other small buff for all PCs in the AoE. Currently it seems that forced movement effects include and interrupt effect, which stops this power from being used effectively against a number of CC immune enemies, if that is an error it should be fixed.
Divine Judgement: Needs a PvE DPS boost, but is fine.
Aura of Courage: Fine.
Sacred Weapon: Needs to be a buff for all your attacks, not just your single target ones (and what does that even mean, when attacks always use a cone for the OP?).
Smite: Fine.
Heroism: I'm just not sure where the desire to nerf this is coming from. I would suggest a reduction to a 15s maximum (6/9/12/15) and 50% duration in PvP (assuming the PvP is the main reason for the current changes). Yes that would let OPs have perma-Heroism, but as Orcus (for example) can take 150000 plus points of damage off in a single strike reliably that still makes the higher end ops that can produce that effect have to work to keep standing with their party.
Lay on Hands: Fine
Bane: This power needs to be fixed so that it correctly ignores PCs when used by Protection OPs, otherwise it is fine.
Aura of Truth: Fine.
Aura of Vengeance: The fixes here seem fine.
Oath Strike: Needs a slight DPS boost, or to accurately report its DPS. Needs to actually force the target to attack.
Templar's Wrath: Should respect all the temp HP rules. Should give 20/30/40/50% of max HP as Temps as a flat bonus. Perhaps a slight damage boost.
Aura of Wisdom: Fine
Binding Oath: Needs to actually force the target to attack. Should just take 50% damage while it is active and then do the 20% out at the end. This would then stop the "perma-Binding" builds being a problem.
Cleansing Touch: The healing effect on this is tiny for Tanks, and its been a long time since I bothered trying to use it to break CC (the main reason I stopped is it didn't seem to work, perhaps someone with more experience can clarify).
Aura of Protection: Fine
Shielding Strike: Fine
Banishment: This power is useless, it has been useless since Preview of the class. In any fight where you would want it to work the mobs are all CC immune and it doesn't work, so it doesn't do anything. If this flipped, so the party became invulnerable for a short duration, but could not damage anything for that duration (say 10s), but could be healed, it might would potentially be a useful power as it would actually work in the fights where it mattered that it work.
Shield of Faith: This power suffers from the class dichotomy issue. The power is trying to do too much and thus becomes problematic, and brings about the nerfs. I would think giving a 50% damage mitigation and a 10% healing boost for Protection OPs would be fine, and those numbers reversed for Devotion OPs (not sure it would be worth it for DevOPs then though).
Aura of Wrath: This power just doesn't work because your hit points just don't go down enough to make it do anything. Oddly I suspect this would be a better Devotion option, while No Pity No Mercy would be a good Protection option. Especially as it would make the Light path more useful to Protection paladins.
Divine Touch: Actually needs to deal heavy radiant damage, instead of being a feather-weight for DPS.
Vow of Enmity: Fine
Absolution: Scrap it and try again.
Divine Protection: I suspect with the changes outlined above, the current proposal for DP would become a sound option. Leaving the rest of the class as is however makes me believe this power should be scrapped and replaced,
Aura of Radiance: Needs to tick faster, as it is now people are running it hoping to get a threat boost, but fixing the threat of other other powers that are supposed to force attacks would make that less of an issue, but faster damage ticks would make the power remain relevant.
Relentless Avenger: Needs to be fixed so it cannot target PCs at all for Protection OPs. I understand why people want it to loose the knockback, but I believe the knockback makes the power require thought before running rather than being just another always on bar power like Templar's Wrath and so should remain as is.
Aura of Valor: With the changes to remove Divine Protector this power may actually become relevant, as long as it works as written. The level pips should be 10% increments however (so 40/50/60/70% HP).
Circle of Power: Fine.
Aura of Solitude: Boost. Its a solo power and really only relevant to the end game anyway.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Fortunately after my tests, I can live with it for the time being at 3.8k.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
I, as a GF, tried to think about a skill that could be named as a Pallies bubble. The only reasonable one is Knight's Valor.
If it was nerfed (not sure how actually...) it would still be useful. As for now it shields the party for 50% of incoming damage which is soaked up by the GF. Let's say it's nerfed by a half like the bubble was. Would I take it of my bar? the answer is "no".
Would I ever slot a skill that makes the whole party immortal in a serious play? again, the answer is "no".
When the class was introduced, I remember many of GF's hanged their boots and switched to OP. I remember some smart ones analyzed the situation and indeed said that OP has some serious advantage over the GF. ONE, I said ONE of them was the Divine Protector. There are still many many others - naming one 360 degrees blocking, passive 500% threat, ect ect.
I'm 100% sure that the class will lift itself, after some smart folks will find a way to utilize the tools it already has.
If, Divine Protector, is the only useful ability OP has - than it has to be the worst designed class ever created in NWN.
If the bubble was so important, than indeed the class should be renamed to "bubbleadin"
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
The tank has a few powers that just hard taunt one target. RA only @#$%es people off. The GF doesn't even need to worry about taunting an entire mob because it has perma KV to soak up damage for the party, which the OP tank does not so it needs even more mass agro.
Sorry buddy, against Orcus the temp HP given simply keeps you off the floor for his lighter attacks. What keeps you alive there tends to be binding oath, even with bubble and temp HP you can be 1 shot without binding. I've had Orcus hit my OP for a single hit of over a million before reductions and well over 300k after the reductions. Then he tends to follow up with another few hits in quick succession for another couple hundred thousand each. They are already nerfing binding oath time by making echos of light proc once per 15sec (which is a massive cooldown), taking away more stuff like temp HP (which already vanishes at a few points in the Orcus fight because "you're not in combat" for all of 1.5 seconds) would really make an OP useless.
I really wish people would stop freaking out.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
Also without Gift of Haste as an attractive mechanic, the entire Virteous feat tree becomes utterly useless. Most of the feats, have very low to no impact. The most valuable ones are "Last Wishes" which is a Tier 1 feat.
While I do not want to tell anybody how to do their job, I'd like to recomment to either put at least a 3-5 second cooldown on Gift of Haste or maybe buffing it back (not to orginal state) and moving it deeper into the Virteous tree. The concept of Healing over Time just does not work well with the current state of the game. People get hit for big numbers and require direct heals, Faithful DCs exactly fill this role and since higher geared players have incredible substain themselves the Righteous Tree and pure debuff/damage dealer DCs reign the "meta". While Faithful can at least stack the heals on full HP members, there is outstandingly much healing wasted on full HP members from Virteous DCs.
Surely this detailed Class Balance maybe a hard task saved for another day, however nobody wants to see Gift of Haste requireing yet another rework.
game - Human/real life - ???
OP 18k+ Devotion/Justice - Light
As the devs changed the tooltip for Divine Glow, they obviously looked at the power, so why, why didn't they fix the big issue with it?
I am of course referring to the fact that it does not proc weapon enchants like Dread that specificallysay they trigger on encounter power use.
It does not say "trigger on encounter powers other than the DC Divine Glow". False advertising, eh?
There are actually a few other powers with the same issue but this one is particularly irritating as it is used by practically all DCs, at least in PvE.
So why can't you fix it? There is no way this is working as intended.
I mean:
a) Burning Light light is great as it is.
b) It could be improved if forced movement didn't interrupt it. (Though it may not interrupt it, it may be that most forced movement powers of monsters also have an interrupt effect specifically so being CC immune allows you to continue casting even if forced to move.)
c) The power would be improved if it handed out a buff to the party instead of giving the tank a healing buff. (This is the tertiary effect of the power for tanks, not the secondary CC effect.)
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Please have a look at the end boons of the new EE campaign: another 24k heals. Does this game need healers anymore? I don't agree with this as well. Constant GoH up is the only thing that a V-DC can do better than other paths. If you remove this, then the V path is really dead.
Some V-DCs have already tested the new GoH mechanic and the overall effect is quite small: an AP cloack can do better. What you're proposing is a nerf over a nerf: not acceptable imo.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
As I claimed in my initial mail, I have zero knowledge about the class but ran many times with a Pally and it was always cool when we stomped the last bug/ or dragon/ or dragon queen / or demon prince - you know, right ?
Class was nerfed because dev's decided to do so, and the most reasonable thing to do is either adapt or ?
Have a good day everyone!
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
Block now migates 50% instead of 80%
Kv can be held at a maximum 6 sec then goes at a cool-down for 20 sec(lest see how much it will be used)
Gf damage will be reduced by overall 80% (due to nerfing all heavy hitting powers)
etc etc
What the devs decided to nerf Gfs the most reasonable thing is to adapt or ?? am sure that is what would happen
Very solid comment for a class you don't know anything about ....
Tankadin: These changes are ill thought out. If I were a dev in the room during the changes pitch, the first thing I would do is make sanctuary actually instantaneous just like other classes evasion skills. Part of the reason the crying over sanctuary was not so bad was cause the bubble and heroism made up for it. Now we have to actually rely on ssanctuary and 9/10 of the time either the sanctuary takes too long to start working OR even worse we go into a guardian fighter pose and it never works. Furthermore Heroism has a 1-1.5 cast time that is counted in the duration which is unfair and stupid. Both DP and Heroism should have a similar activation to shield of faith, instant. Instead they have a cast animation that can be interrupted and has very often caused failed cast daily uses where you lose your daily points but never gain the buff due to how the AP drain or death happens during the cast time. Heroism before the patch was a paladins only method of avoiding CC. Sanctuary was always just a heal spell for after combat ends due to its unreliable nature. Also on a side note there is an issue with Vigilance and barrier for the Bulwark line, Barrier was not functioning at all if I had vigilance chosen in the feat line. Once I unchose vigilance I started gaining barrier charges again and barrier started giving me a shield. And I dunno if its intended or not but shield spells for pallies are stacking. I can cast absolution, the Daily feat that gives me an uber shield, and barrier and they all stack.
This is the issue, OP's will still be able to run stuff but they won't be a useful member of the team when you have to focus your powers on keeping yourself standing and not on contributing to your team in a meaningful way. If a OP can't keep the others in the team alive, can't provide decent DPS, can't heal, can't keep threat then who would want one in the team?