So I play a GWF and an OP, mainly for when I can't find a good tank. I would LOVE to know where all these awesome GF tanks are since any GF I have ended up with in my party has been HAMSTER barring the ones (well) over 3k iL.
Anyway, I'm not quite sure I understand the point of nerfing the OPs. I get that perma bubble "needed to go" but you're literally ignoring the cause of people wanting them. Not to mention, you just nerfed the GWFs survivability that most need to stay off the ground tying them to the same tank you now want to nerf 6ft deep. I am not including high geared characters since they are all sorts of broken, hell Lazalia told me it helped since the tab bug was less of an issue with the lower temp HP.
No one wants to spend hours running a single dungeon and hope they can beat the boss, OPs can stand up to the hits that, even in the newest content, are just as hard as ever (maybe more so than anything besides SH dragons, I haven't checked tia on my OP). I had never used Binding Oath on my OP until I ran CN, mainly because I didn't need it to stay alive (at that point I had never run SH dragons either).
My point here is, get a party together of normal item levels and see how "easy" the content is. Most of the time the enemies would simply one hit the characters in my parties and most are between 2400 - 2800. I've had some that are higher than that still get one shot by things in a party before too. The item levels are so far off on the content that unless you have a full optimal build party I don't see how you can complete the given content at the stated levels.
I would venture a guess (a pretty safe one IMO) that you do not plan, as part of these changes, to adjust enemy health to compensate for the millions less damage players will be doing or to their damage to compensate for their ability to one shot damn near any character under 3k. All these changes seem to be doing is making things harder for the sake of making them harder. What I am getting at here is if a party is decently geared and averaging 2800 iL it shouldn't be a struggle to beat a dungeon that they are supposed to have a shot at with a party of 2k iL. Also on that note, to anyone bitching about 4k iL chars soloing things, I say no HAMSTER. 4k chars SHOULD find stuff intended for 2k iL a HAMSTER cakewalk. It should be like they are stomping on ants because they have 2x the gear, they need content that actually makes them have to work and have a challenge vs well lets nerf their stats more so they can't do this content so easily. I don't hear anyone bitching about a 2k lvl 70 going and wreaking things in a leveling dungeon, so whats the problem with 4k chars doing the same?
You really need to make higher level content and rewards for people completing challenging content rather than taking existing content and making it harder and longer for the same (to be entirely blunt here) HAMSTER rewards. Either that or make some sort of difficulty scaling so if everyone is above the required iL it gets harder, make it even more so if some are extremely geared. Couple that with real balance not a nerf hammer and people would be far less pissed.
Oh and while we're at it, you may as well make PvP entirely separate, it's pretty obvious you can't balance that and PvE at the same time. Then you can balance PvP as it's own separate thing and PvE as it's own thing like is obviously needed.
Anyway, I typed a lot more than I was planning to, I doubt this will get through to a dev but maybe it will. Also..... remember this is a team game, nerfs affect every class even if you're not playing the one on the short end of the stick.
Our problem is not bubble , our problem is lack of content for geared players.
There is no way that negating 100% of damage in a dungeon is not a problem.
I said bubble, but you can put there any broken thing. Broken things are fixed soon or later. But there is no content for players at high end. So they back and complain, telling how easy it is. How cheesy are dungeons now. Forgeting there are people with low gear, and bubble was reason they could get that gear. Problem is when bubble nerf come live then it will be still cheesy for them. But not for freshes, poor players. They will still cry about killing Orcus or any boss in seconds. Thats the problem we have.
Any idea if this goes live, the fix for the Temp HP / out of combat situation will be fixed as well?
What do you mean fix? Did you not read the patch notes? Making it that way was the fix.
There is this bug going on, where you're fighting a mob/boss, you suddenly drop out of combat and for example your potions cooldown resets but also the Temp HP vanishes. It is quite annoying if I may say, to suddenly lose 200k temp HP, while you're not getting hit. It has been reported, just wondering if they will have it fixed by the time these changes will go live.
My prediction is that players below 3k will stop playing T1 & T2 dungeons completely.
Players don't need to run them for gear anymore as they can go with drow/dusk & dragonflight. Run enough HE's in Dread Ring and you can earn one piece of drow in a day - yes you have to wait a week to earn the second piece but people sell dusk boots for gold and if you have vip, you'll get enough trade bars for another piece of dusk.
Most people can get full T2 armor in 2 weeks without ever setting foot in any dungeon.
People won't bother farming these dungeons either - with the options of shores, kessels etc where the fights are shorter, smaller & more easily contained & the end boss fights much quicker people can get their AD without ever stepping into a proper dungeon.
The only reason for going to T2's will be the seals.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
I have a perma bubble OP. All I ask is make me viable after the changes. Take away most of the bubble AND 30% of the damage reduction and will the game be balanced? I think not. I will not be wanted in dungeons. To be honest in my guild I am not now. That is because the other players do not need me now. They certainly will not need me when I can not bubble them. Sure I could respec but to what?
Balance the game but DO NOT TRASH CLASSES.
I vote for 10 or 12 second bubble and 50% damage reduction.
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
Why not make Divine Protector like Knights Valor? KV works, and DP is a Daily... Make it 20 seconds and Pala takes 50% of the dmg of each hit... If you want 60% to make it different, or add other effect... make it usable
My point here is, get a party together of normal item levels and see how "easy" the content is. Most of the time the enemies would simply one hit the characters in my parties and most are between 2400 - 2800. I've had some that are higher than that still get one shot by things in a party before too. .
Well....its often proofen that you can do any dungeon with the rquired gs if the grp can play together and everyone knows wot to do. Excample blackdagger:
Permbubble made 2 things: You can carry every skillless player thru dungeons. You dont learn any gameplay/grp play and you dont care about red zones and boss tactics.
I dont know if i can have fun with no challenge at all...do you have fun with no challenge at all?
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
My point here is, get a party together of normal item levels and see how "easy" the content is. Most of the time the enemies would simply one hit the characters in my parties and most are between 2400 - 2800. I've had some that are higher than that still get one shot by things in a party before too. .
Well....its often proofen that you can do any dungeon with the rquired gs if the grp can play together and everyone knows wot to do. Excample blackdagger:
Permbubble made 2 things: You can carry every skillless player thru dungeons. You dont learn any gameplay/grp play and you dont care about red zones and boss tactics.
I dont know if i can have fun with no challenge at all...do you have fun with no challenge at all?
Permbubble made 2 things: You can carry every skillless player thru dungeons. You dont learn any gameplay/grp play and you dont care about red zones and boss tactics.
I dont know if i can have fun with no challenge at all...do you have fun with no challenge at all?
WHo will tank for freshes? 2k GF? I dont think so.
GF allways did that and still can do that. A perm bubbledin dont help ( never did) freshes to get better. He only helped them to get gear. Thats all. A perm bubbledin teached the freshes :"Doesnt matter if there is a red zone or the boss is hittig you. I got my bubble. Just stay and dont learn anything about bossmechanics etc." I dont think that this way to play helps a freshy.Not at all. Sry...just my opinion. And dont forget: Before we got the OP, we only got GFs. Worked
Amen to that! We've all learned on what we had, there were no Pallys, there were no HR's with Fox Cunning, there were no other ways. But each class had tools to make a party synergy going, and if people were learning and trying different things, sooner or later it clicked and was hell of a fun !
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
@thefabricant: Didnt find your vid so fast. So i took the other. But both showing the same: Good Grp play and skill? You can do every dungeon. Allways worked.
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alexabadanovMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4Arc User
I seriously question why the OP is being disabled to the point of uselessness. If you reduce the % of damage negated as well as the duration of the daily, then the OP will no longer be effective as a tank. One or the other, but both render the toon worthless. You are now saying that the toon is not playing as intended, but this is clearly inaccurate as the class is performing as a tank, exactly as intended. There are many methods which this could have been prevented from the onset. Since you did not implement any of these preventative measures, you are clearly changing the rules to punish players who worked hard to make the best of the toon's capabilities.
As it currently stands the OP is vulnerable in both PVE and PVP and such a dramatic change, while making it easier to kill in PVP will seriously compromise it as a tank in PVE. I think that this is wrong and I do not understand anyone who would support such a drastic alteration.
By comparison KV is permanent and 50% damage reduction for the party so why is the bubble being "permanent" such an issue - especially if you are looking to reduce the damage it negates as well?
This is an obvious attack on the OP as a tank, which will have the knock on effect of keeping a significant portion of the players from being accepted for PVE runs. It is hard enough to get the gear, even if you are a "wallet warrior" and the dungeon minimums will not be the standard for getting dungeon runs if this "plan" is followed. You will be making it harder for the newer to game players and increasing the divide between the elite and the developing players.
Post more and more vids, doesnt make difference. "Shield of Faith: Now decreases incoming damage by 30% (down from 50%) and increases healing taken by 30% (up from 20%)."
Deal with it. KV should be lowered to 30% too and work for 12 sec. ITF and enforced threat with OH bonus from passive enhanced mark compensate it alot.
Dont forget about AP generation from tactician tree, its even faster than haste sometimes.
Sheild of divine/cleansing fire is ONLY practical before this nerf.
there is now no reason to go all the way down virt path. and no reason to not go down the righteous path.
I mean personally liked clerics because they had the most flexibility in builds but this is going to destroy that, but if it makes the game "harder" for lower teir players HAMSTER it. I'm so far into late game that I don't care. with that said virt path was better for lower teir parties. I had reason I ran it at higher teir parties but had been debating changing over even before this nerf. So we get a few respec since they are killing an entire cleric path right?
-edit- although while your at it AA should grant control immunity from demo attacks.
Post edited by ktrelis on
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
SUggestion for op : give him on some defensive encounters the stamina generation effect or on an att will because his stamina go fast down for a defender class.
What I'd like to know is, if you are going to do major reworks to a class or two, why not fix the broken mechanics of that classes powers? One thing that comes to mind is Binding Oath, which should be forcing enemies to attack the paladin.
For anyone looking for a free respec... don't count on it. I have not seen official word one way or another...but I have been playing the game since release... These changes are minor compared to what has been done in the past without respecs. Ultimately, the decision is completely PWE/Cryptic's if they want to give a respec, but my experience has shown that it probably will not happen.
Someone in the thread mentioned a free class change... That option exists in one form only... delete your character and create a new one in the same slot (its always free too!!!) followed by leveling and running dungeons to regain your loot. (I would point out, if you think the GF is overpowered to create one of those and learn the reality of how hard it is to play one effectively.)
SUggestion for op : give him on some defensive encounters the stamina generation effect or on an att will because his stamina go fast down for a defender class.
I had a look over the Bulwark feats and there is Holy Resurgence which only kicks in when stamina is low. As a class, the OP has way fewer tools in the box for recovering stamina than a GF. I know on my DevOP, even with several boons improving stamina recovery and a reasonable amount of stamina regen in stats, it can run out very easily in situations calling for a defensive approach.
At the same time, now that I've refreshed my memory of the path I think that the strength of Divine Protector has prevented exploration of Bulwark for tanking. There's a ton of stuff in there for generating personal shields, but a lot of it is tied to gaining and consuming stacks, which means it's not button-mashing-friendly.
Since Justice with Divine Protector was as protected as a party could get, there wasn't much reason for going down Bulwark except being stubborn. But just looking it over, I can see how it seems to be meant to work, with tools to use and recover Divine Call as well. It's interesting.
My point here is, get a party together of normal item levels and see how "easy" the content is. Most of the time the enemies would simply one hit the characters in my parties and most are between 2400 - 2800. I've had some that are higher than that still get one shot by things in a party before too. .
Well....its often proofen that you can do any dungeon with the rquired gs if the grp can play together and everyone knows wot to do. Excample blackdagger:
Permbubble made 2 things: You can carry every skillless player thru dungeons. You dont learn any gameplay/grp play and you dont care about red zones and boss tactics.
I dont know if i can have fun with no challenge at all...do you have fun with no challenge at all?
A challenge is great, but the rewards need to be commensurate with the effort. Currently you need to speed run dungeons ad nauseaum because the payoff is so low. You can run CN 100 times and walk away with junk.
IF they want people to want to do dungeons and have them be harder, the rewards need to be adjusted.
Back in the day, most folks couldn't run CN, but for those that could you were guaranteed a weapon to sell at the end. Nowadays when I finish CN, Tiamat or whatever, the rewards are very unsatisfying. Do I really want to keep logging in for that? Do they think making it harder is going to get me to keep logging in?
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited April 2016
about ap gain and haste i guess cryptic the plan was : poeple get used to dailies so now you nerf haste and they will spend zen to get lockboxes to get either the snail or the gorgon nice plan to make poeple pay to win. and the burning weapon farm has the rarest spawn heroics and hardest one for the same purpose hhahahh.
Well....its often proofen that you can do any dungeon with the rquired gs if the grp can play together and everyone knows wot to do. Excample blackdagger:
Permbubble made 2 things:
You can carry every skillless player thru dungeons.
You dont learn any gameplay/grp play and you dont care about red zones and boss tactics.
I dont know if i can have fun with no challenge at all...do you have fun with no challenge at all?
Again my point was get a party of 2k or just above players, random not a full party of people with optimized builds and tell me how easy it is. That video wasn't a group of randoms at all so again it is missing the point. I never said it was impossible just much harder and damn near impossible for a random group to achieve it. Since, you know it's not like you get to choose what queue gives you.
Back to the Paladins though, tell me, what else can an OP do? My OP doesn't DPS for HAMSTER, can't buff for HAMSTER (even with aura gifts it's not even remotely close to GF buffs), my OP's job was to take the damage and keep people alive. To anyone saying OP's hold aggro, that really isn't true, dunno if it's a bug or what but a lot of times enemies will face other players even if I hit tab. They may be supposed to but it doesn't seem to work. If it did and OPs worked more like a GF in terms of buffing the party we probably wouldn't be having this discussion at all.
Hell the bubble isn't even my point here, its the fact that I don't see a reason to take an OP after this nerf, they don't buff as well, hold aggro as well nor DPS as well as a GF so where do they fit? Whats the point in an immortal OP (or near it) if you cant actually help the party in a real tangible way? Honestly even if the OP took 50% or more of the damage it would probably be fine to leave the bubble at 20 seconds, there is no reason a daily should be less useful than an encounter though.
Also.... who the HAMSTER is forcing you to "have no fun", can you not choose to run without an OP? On that note, do you run DF? If so is it fun dying 100x against the blue dragon?
For the moment I'm not going to mention the MULTITUDE of issues that have been ignored to bring us these proposed changes (because face it, they are not changes yet).
- Firstly to get it out of the way; The Lostmauth set. The change is fine and fair. Shocking huh? Each of you complaining that this destroys or breaks XX class, just stop. No it doesn't, the class you have been playing has been broken since you added the Lostmauth set to it. It is simply being returned to the way it should have been from the beginning.
- The OP. We all knew it was broken, in PvP it was especially so, no for itself but for what it added to the team. Since the Dev. is currently incapable of separating PvE from PvP when they make changes (seriously, this will be my only real complaint here, but please ARC, please learn how to do this). In PvE it wasn't technically 'broken" but it was an easy mode button that didn't need to be. It could have simply been what it's supposed to be: A top class Tank/top class Healer. The Healer side functions as intended so lets just ignore that.
Now I know the goal is to remove the "easy mode" effect from the Divine Protector power but making it near useless is not the way to do it, ARC (yes I refer to you as a person, not a company) you are prone to sudden knee-jerk reactions like this and it needs to stop. I get why even after the thought you put into it that you changed it to 6 seconds and over-reduced it but most people don't and they won't understand it. But more on that later.
- The DC, or more specifically; Gift of Haste. This was broken from the moment it was implemented, and everyone knows it. I have never and will never use it; my Faith Cleric out heals everything but a OoD Pally and provides good buffs/debuffs on top of that. My Righteous Cleric buffs/debuffs on a top level and does great DPS as well.
I won't go into the full reasons why this needed a change (and needs a different change IMO but more on that shortly) as the notes say it all. So lastly..
- The GF. I really can't talk much on this, so I won't. Does it have broken aspects? Hell yes. Does it need certain buffs? Hell yes.
I am going to simply mention one thing here though.
A good GF, as in one that can tank an entire T2 requires a Defense of ~12k+, a high stamina regen. rate, knowledge of enemy attack patterns to know when to drop the shield to use certain powers (Tide of Iron, ITF etc.) and is only a tank when its shield is up (this is not about you with the 22k Defense ratings).
The OoP OP, can do the same, sans-bubble with 8k Defense. Doesn't need particularly high stamina regen. No special conditions/moves required for basic tanking and is generally foolproof in it's basic uses.
What's my point?
They are both completely different classes with different needs and requirements. Yes they are both Tanks, but that's not all they are.
GF can do good DPS, buff others effectively (to a broken extent sometimes) and builds threat fairly easily but when it comes to Tanking, its labor intensive and requires that the GF keep the enemies in front of itself to be effective as well as only taking hits while shielded.
The OP does poor damage (although some), can buff others but it's supplementary, does build threat well but it's done using certain moves, not in general. But Tanking? It's very simple and takes far less effort to accomplish than the GF. Tanking position - middle of enemy mob, 360 degree tanking effectiveness. The bubble made this just infinitely easier by removing 99% of any threats of failure in the process.
Now to the overall point: The proposed changes vs what I feel after seeing them in action would be the optimal changes to make Live.
- Lostmauth set Keep the changes as proposed with 1 small alteration; the Damage will also Crit. giving a slight better damage for those who have worked to stack Crit Severity.
- OP Changes Divine Protector - Change to 10 seconds with 5/1.5/1.5/2 Progression. 20 seconds is too long, I agree fully but 6 seconds is rendering a Key ability useless and that is not an effective method of balance. Retain the change from 80% to 50% Damage reduction. This is fair, given the average DR of the OP.
Shield of Faith - Changes as proposed are good, an OoD Pally can keep uptime on this 100% if necessary and that's its main user.
Heroism - Change active time to 12 seconds. 6/2/2/2 If however you are open to overhauling it:
Heroism: Gain Temp. HP equal to 100% of your Max HP. Until this effect ends the player cannot gain further Temp. HP or generate AP. For 6/8/10/12 seconds become immune to CC effects. In addition, enemies that damage you are marked with Last Strike.
Last Strike: When Heroism ends, enemies take Piercing damage equal to the amount of Temp. HP damage they caused during it's effect.
Echoes of Light - Tbh, I see this as a buff not a nerf so the change is fine as-is.
Aura of Vengeance - Wasn't even aware this was an issue. Change is fine.
- DC Changes
Gift of Haste - Honestly an overhaul such as this would be more in line with the Feat:
Gift of Haste: When you use a Daily Power grant all Allies within 80 feet 5/10/15/20/25% of their AP over 2.5/5/7.5/10/12.5 seconds.
- GF Changes
I honestly can't fault any of these at this time. Other things need to be looked into but these seem solid.
Post edited by tgwolf on
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
- Lostmauth set Keep the changes as proposed with 1 small alteration; the Damage has a 20%, unchangeable chance to Crit. with 100% severity. Since it does not Proc. off itself, a 1/5 chance to do ~6000 damage instead of ~3000 is more than an acceptable level of bonus damage vs the 50-60k+ that's occurring now.
Not actually possible without some kind of massive overhaul of a hardcoded mechanic. Effects that proc off a crit either always crit because they are piggybacked onto a critical attack, or they never crit because their ability to do so is disabled. Such effects do not have an independent chance to crit because there is no separate "attack roll" or however you'd want to describe it. It's just a passive effect generated by another attack. GCrush explained it back when Storm Spell was altered.
First off, I think these changes are needed though to me they sound a bit extreme. I hope they will reconsider some of the numbers a bit.
That being said, my recommendation to them is to give every DC and every OP a free respec token (possibly GF as well). These tokens are character specific so no worry of other characters using them. Don't force them to respec, but instead give them a free credit so they can try things out with what they have and then choose whether to use it not. The reasoning here is because you are clearly nerfing key abilities and powers that they use. They built it up that way as that is how it was designed and how they could make the class more useful. Now that you change the mechanics, it is only fair that you give them an opportunity to respec based on what will now work best for them. Instead, you are pretty much saying to most of them that what you built won't work anymore so give us some more money to respec...which really sucks for the player. Be a little civil in the matter since you know how much you are nerfing them (even if it is for good reason).
To be clear, I have a HC which I rarely use, and do not have an OP so I am not saying this for my benefit but instead for the benefit of all those who have characters that are going to be nerfed and sometimes require a respec of your character.
Comments
Anyway, I'm not quite sure I understand the point of nerfing the OPs. I get that perma bubble "needed to go" but you're literally ignoring the cause of people wanting them. Not to mention, you just nerfed the GWFs survivability that most need to stay off the ground tying them to the same tank you now want to nerf 6ft deep. I am not including high geared characters since they are all sorts of broken, hell Lazalia told me it helped since the tab bug was less of an issue with the lower temp HP.
No one wants to spend hours running a single dungeon and hope they can beat the boss, OPs can stand up to the hits that, even in the newest content, are just as hard as ever (maybe more so than anything besides SH dragons, I haven't checked tia on my OP). I had never used Binding Oath on my OP until I ran CN, mainly because I didn't need it to stay alive (at that point I had never run SH dragons either).
My point here is, get a party together of normal item levels and see how "easy" the content is. Most of the time the enemies would simply one hit the characters in my parties and most are between 2400 - 2800. I've had some that are higher than that still get one shot by things in a party before too. The item levels are so far off on the content that unless you have a full optimal build party I don't see how you can complete the given content at the stated levels.
I would venture a guess (a pretty safe one IMO) that you do not plan, as part of these changes, to adjust enemy health to compensate for the millions less damage players will be doing or to their damage to compensate for their ability to one shot damn near any character under 3k. All these changes seem to be doing is making things harder for the sake of making them harder. What I am getting at here is if a party is decently geared and averaging 2800 iL it shouldn't be a struggle to beat a dungeon that they are supposed to have a shot at with a party of 2k iL. Also on that note, to anyone bitching about 4k iL chars soloing things, I say no HAMSTER. 4k chars SHOULD find stuff intended for 2k iL a HAMSTER cakewalk. It should be like they are stomping on ants because they have 2x the gear, they need content that actually makes them have to work and have a challenge vs well lets nerf their stats more so they can't do this content so easily. I don't hear anyone bitching about a 2k lvl 70 going and wreaking things in a leveling dungeon, so whats the problem with 4k chars doing the same?
You really need to make higher level content and rewards for people completing challenging content rather than taking existing content and making it harder and longer for the same (to be entirely blunt here) HAMSTER rewards. Either that or make some sort of difficulty scaling so if everyone is above the required iL it gets harder, make it even more so if some are extremely geared. Couple that with real balance not a nerf hammer and people would be far less pissed.
Oh and while we're at it, you may as well make PvP entirely separate, it's pretty obvious you can't balance that and PvE at the same time. Then you can balance PvP as it's own separate thing and PvE as it's own thing like is obviously needed.
Anyway, I typed a lot more than I was planning to, I doubt this will get through to a dev but maybe it will. Also..... remember this is a team game, nerfs affect every class even if you're not playing the one on the short end of the stick.
It has been reported, just wondering if they will have it fixed by the time these changes will go live.
nvm, cant seem to reproduce atm.
Players don't need to run them for gear anymore as they can go with drow/dusk & dragonflight. Run enough HE's in Dread Ring and you can earn one piece of drow in a day - yes you have to wait a week to earn the second piece but people sell dusk boots for gold and if you have vip, you'll get enough trade bars for another piece of dusk.
Most people can get full T2 armor in 2 weeks without ever setting foot in any dungeon.
People won't bother farming these dungeons either - with the options of shores, kessels etc where the fights are shorter, smaller & more easily contained & the end boss fights much quicker people can get their AD without ever stepping into a proper dungeon.
The only reason for going to T2's will be the seals.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Balance the game but DO NOT TRASH CLASSES.
I vote for 10 or 12 second bubble and 50% damage reduction.
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
Permbubble made 2 things:
You can carry every skillless player thru dungeons.
You dont learn any gameplay/grp play and you dont care about red zones and boss tactics.
I dont know if i can have fun with no challenge at all...do you have fun with no challenge at all?
We've all learned on what we had, there were no Pallys, there were no HR's with Fox Cunning, there were no other ways. But each class had tools to make a party synergy going, and if people were learning and trying different things, sooner or later it clicked and was hell of a fun !
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
Didnt find your vid so fast. So i took the other. But both showing the same:
Good Grp play and skill? You can do every dungeon. Allways worked.
As it currently stands the OP is vulnerable in both PVE and PVP and such a dramatic change, while making it easier to kill in PVP will seriously compromise it as a tank in PVE. I think that this is wrong and I do not understand anyone who would support such a drastic alteration.
By comparison KV is permanent and 50% damage reduction for the party so why is the bubble being "permanent" such an issue - especially if you are looking to reduce the damage it negates as well?
This is an obvious attack on the OP as a tank, which will have the knock on effect of keeping a significant portion of the players from being accepted for PVE runs. It is hard enough to get the gear, even if you are a "wallet warrior" and the dungeon minimums will not be the standard for getting dungeon runs if this "plan" is followed. You will be making it harder for the newer to game players and increasing the divide between the elite and the developing players.
"Shield of Faith: Now decreases incoming damage by 30% (down from 50%) and increases healing taken by 30% (up from 20%)."
Deal with it. KV should be lowered to 30% too and work for 12 sec. ITF and enforced threat with OH bonus from passive enhanced mark compensate it alot.
Dont forget about AP generation from tactician tree, its even faster than haste sometimes.
there is now no reason to go all the way down virt path. and no reason to not go down the righteous path.
I mean personally liked clerics because they had the most flexibility in builds but this is going to destroy that, but if it makes the game "harder" for lower teir players HAMSTER it. I'm so far into late game that I don't care. with that said virt path was better for lower teir parties. I had reason I ran it at higher teir parties but had been debating changing over even before this nerf. So we get a few respec since they are killing an entire cleric path right?
-edit-
although while your at it AA should grant control immunity from demo attacks.
Someone in the thread mentioned a free class change... That option exists in one form only... delete your character and create a new one in the same slot (its always free too!!!) followed by leveling and running dungeons to regain your loot. (I would point out, if you think the GF is overpowered to create one of those and learn the reality of how hard it is to play one effectively.)
Murphster - SS CW | Jennsen Rahl - MoF CW
Taarna - GWF
Eowyn - Protector OP | Leela - Devoted OP
Mara Jade - TR
Leeloo - Tempt SW | Kahlan Amnell - Fury SW | Galadriel - Damnation SW
Sturm Nightblade - GF
At the same time, now that I've refreshed my memory of the path I think that the strength of Divine Protector has prevented exploration of Bulwark for tanking. There's a ton of stuff in there for generating personal shields, but a lot of it is tied to gaining and consuming stacks, which means it's not button-mashing-friendly.
Since Justice with Divine Protector was as protected as a party could get, there wasn't much reason for going down Bulwark except being stubborn. But just looking it over, I can see how it seems to be meant to work, with tools to use and recover Divine Call as well. It's interesting.
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IF they want people to want to do dungeons and have them be harder, the rewards need to be adjusted.
Back in the day, most folks couldn't run CN, but for those that could you were guaranteed a weapon to sell at the end. Nowadays when I finish CN, Tiamat or whatever, the rewards are very unsatisfying. Do I really want to keep logging in for that? Do they think making it harder is going to get me to keep logging in?
and the burning weapon farm has the rarest spawn heroics and hardest one for the same purpose hhahahh.
Again my point was get a party of 2k or just above players, random not a full party of people with optimized builds and tell me how easy it is. That video wasn't a group of randoms at all so again it is missing the point. I never said it was impossible just much harder and damn near impossible for a random group to achieve it. Since, you know it's not like you get to choose what queue gives you.
Back to the Paladins though, tell me, what else can an OP do? My OP doesn't DPS for HAMSTER, can't buff for HAMSTER (even with aura gifts it's not even remotely close to GF buffs), my OP's job was to take the damage and keep people alive. To anyone saying OP's hold aggro, that really isn't true, dunno if it's a bug or what but a lot of times enemies will face other players even if I hit tab. They may be supposed to but it doesn't seem to work. If it did and OPs worked more like a GF in terms of buffing the party we probably wouldn't be having this discussion at all.
Hell the bubble isn't even my point here, its the fact that I don't see a reason to take an OP after this nerf, they don't buff as well, hold aggro as well nor DPS as well as a GF so where do they fit? Whats the point in an immortal OP (or near it) if you cant actually help the party in a real tangible way? Honestly even if the OP took 50% or more of the damage it would probably be fine to leave the bubble at 20 seconds, there is no reason a daily should be less useful than an encounter though.
Also.... who the HAMSTER is forcing you to "have no fun", can you not choose to run without an OP? On that note, do you run DF? If so is it fun dying 100x against the blue dragon?
- Firstly to get it out of the way; The Lostmauth set.
The change is fine and fair. Shocking huh?
Each of you complaining that this destroys or breaks XX class, just stop. No it doesn't, the class you have been playing has been broken since you added the Lostmauth set to it.
It is simply being returned to the way it should have been from the beginning.
- The OP.
We all knew it was broken, in PvP it was especially so, no for itself but for what it added to the team. Since the Dev. is currently incapable of separating PvE from PvP when they make changes (seriously, this will be my only real complaint here, but please ARC, please learn how to do this).
In PvE it wasn't technically 'broken" but it was an easy mode button that didn't need to be. It could have simply been what it's supposed to be: A top class Tank/top class Healer. The Healer side functions as intended so lets just ignore that.
Now I know the goal is to remove the "easy mode" effect from the Divine Protector power but making it near useless is not the way to do it, ARC (yes I refer to you as a person, not a company) you are prone to sudden knee-jerk reactions like this and it needs to stop. I get why even after the thought you put into it that you changed it to 6 seconds and over-reduced it but most people don't and they won't understand it. But more on that later.
- The DC, or more specifically; Gift of Haste.
This was broken from the moment it was implemented, and everyone knows it. I have never and will never use it; my Faith Cleric out heals everything but a OoD Pally and provides good buffs/debuffs on top of that.
My Righteous Cleric buffs/debuffs on a top level and does great DPS as well.
I won't go into the full reasons why this needed a change (and needs a different change IMO but more on that shortly) as the notes say it all. So lastly..
- The GF.
I really can't talk much on this, so I won't.
Does it have broken aspects? Hell yes.
Does it need certain buffs? Hell yes.
I am going to simply mention one thing here though.
A good GF, as in one that can tank an entire T2 requires a Defense of ~12k+, a high stamina regen. rate, knowledge of enemy attack patterns to know when to drop the shield to use certain powers (Tide of Iron, ITF etc.) and is only a tank when its shield is up (this is not about you with the 22k Defense ratings).
The OoP OP, can do the same, sans-bubble with 8k Defense. Doesn't need particularly high stamina regen. No special conditions/moves required for basic tanking and is generally foolproof in it's basic uses.
What's my point?
They are both completely different classes with different needs and requirements. Yes they are both Tanks, but that's not all they are.
GF can do good DPS, buff others effectively (to a broken extent sometimes) and builds threat fairly easily but when it comes to Tanking, its labor intensive and requires that the GF keep the enemies in front of itself to be effective as well as only taking hits while shielded.
The OP does poor damage (although some), can buff others but it's supplementary, does build threat well but it's done using certain moves, not in general. But Tanking? It's very simple and takes far less effort to accomplish than the GF. Tanking position - middle of enemy mob, 360 degree tanking effectiveness. The bubble made this just infinitely easier by removing 99% of any threats of failure in the process.
Now to the overall point: The proposed changes vs what I feel after seeing them in action would be the optimal changes to make Live.
- Lostmauth set
Keep the changes as proposed with 1 small alteration; the Damage will also Crit. giving a slight better damage for those who have worked to stack Crit Severity.
- OP Changes
Divine Protector - Change to 10 seconds with 5/1.5/1.5/2 Progression.
20 seconds is too long, I agree fully but 6 seconds is rendering a Key ability useless and that is not an effective method of balance.
Retain the change from 80% to 50% Damage reduction. This is fair, given the average DR of the OP.
Shield of Faith - Changes as proposed are good, an OoD Pally can keep uptime on this 100% if necessary and that's its main user.
Heroism - Change active time to 12 seconds. 6/2/2/2
If however you are open to overhauling it:
Heroism:
Gain Temp. HP equal to 100% of your Max HP. Until this effect ends the player cannot gain further Temp. HP or generate AP.
For 6/8/10/12 seconds become immune to CC effects.
In addition, enemies that damage you are marked with Last Strike.
Last Strike:
When Heroism ends, enemies take Piercing damage equal to the amount of Temp. HP damage they caused during it's effect.
Echoes of Light - Tbh, I see this as a buff not a nerf so the change is fine as-is.
Aura of Vengeance - Wasn't even aware this was an issue. Change is fine.
- DC Changes
Gift of Haste - Honestly an overhaul such as this would be more in line with the Feat:
Gift of Haste:
When you use a Daily Power grant all Allies within 80 feet 5/10/15/20/25% of their AP over 2.5/5/7.5/10/12.5 seconds.
- GF Changes
I honestly can't fault any of these at this time. Other things need to be looked into but these seem solid.
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That being said, my recommendation to them is to give every DC and every OP a free respec token (possibly GF as well). These tokens are character specific so no worry of other characters using them. Don't force them to respec, but instead give them a free credit so they can try things out with what they have and then choose whether to use it not. The reasoning here is because you are clearly nerfing key abilities and powers that they use. They built it up that way as that is how it was designed and how they could make the class more useful. Now that you change the mechanics, it is only fair that you give them an opportunity to respec based on what will now work best for them. Instead, you are pretty much saying to most of them that what you built won't work anymore so give us some more money to respec...which really sucks for the player. Be a little civil in the matter since you know how much you are nerfing them (even if it is for good reason).
To be clear, I have a HC which I rarely use, and do not have an OP so I am not saying this for my benefit but instead for the benefit of all those who have characters that are going to be nerfed and sometimes require a respec of your character.