IIRC, there's some underlying mechanic where if a proc-on-crit effect is allowed to crit, it *always* does. That's one of the reasons Stormspell was made to never crit, because there was no way to actually give it an independent crit chance.
(And I'm not enough of a number-cruncher to verify if Lostmaunster was always critting before, or only sometimes.)
It always crit'd.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
Why? When the GWF had Deep Gash bug which in essence had the same issue than Lostmauth's set, the devs clearly stated that it was a bug so they fixed it. Afterwards, when kessell's artifact was released, we had the same issue because the artifact was doing much more damage than intended, it was fixed. So, it is just a matter of time.
...we have toned down a good chunk of what was causing that up front burst (Deep Gash ticks critting and benefitting from Power in ways they shouldn't)...
Lostmauth's set is critting and benefitting from Power/Damage bonuses in the same way.
Almost, 1 year later, it is fixed due to the same argument.
The problem isn't that it was fixed, the real problem is the time that took them to fix it. Anyway, It is a good change and it is very exciting to test new builds. In theory, it should be a good boost in dmg (2%-5%) which is more than enough.
IIRC, there's some underlying mechanic where if a proc-on-crit effect is allowed to crit, it *always* does. That's one of the reasons Stormspell was made to never crit, because there was no way to actually give it an independent crit chance.
(And I'm not enough of a number-cruncher to verify if Lostmaunster was always critting before, or only sometimes.)
It always crit'd.
Yar, then that's why. It's always or never, so they've changed it to never.
Ghoulz, SW has AoE spells too... remember TT? and Firey Bolt? and harrowstorm? and wraith shadow (not positive on this one) and Blades of Vanquished armies.
They all are subpar alone by yourself without buffs. And harrowstorm getting nerfed it's even less useful for an AoE.
Does not compete at all with WMS spam. TR can just WWoB in stealth and drop a smoke bomb. The mobs will be dead long before the SW gets his mobs below half health.
Ghoulz, SW has AoE spells too... remember TT? and Firey Bolt? and harrowstorm? and wraith shadow (not positive on this one) and Blades of Vanquished armies.
They all are subpar alone by yourself without buffs. And harrowstorm getting nerfed it's even less useful for an AoE.
Does not compete at all with WMS spam. TR can just WWoB in stealth and drop a smoke bomb. The mobs will be dead long before the SW gets his mobs below half health.
harrow storm is getting buffed as an aoe actually. it is nerfed as single target damage, but in an AoEit will do more damage now to all the mobs that are effected. Personally, my SW doesn't have to much trouble clearing. You complain about everything though so I don't know how much you can be trusted
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They could've had it crit without the damage increase from crit. The only important part about it crit'ing is that it procs storm spell and soul sparks. So they didn't just nerf the damage they nerfed the fringe benefits from crit proc'd abilities for no good reason. Lazy and pointless nerf.
A class shouldnt have to rely so heavily on a set to produce competitive results. SW itself needs a major rework, the whole class is a clunky mess.
Ghoulz, SW has AoE spells too... remember TT? and Firey Bolt? and harrowstorm? and wraith shadow (not positive on this one) and Blades of Vanquished armies.
They all are subpar alone by yourself without buffs. And harrowstorm getting nerfed it's even less useful for an AoE.
Does not compete at all with WMS spam. TR can just WWoB in stealth and drop a smoke bomb. The mobs will be dead long before the SW gets his mobs below half health.
harrow storm is getting buffed as an aoe actually. it is nerfed as single target damage, but in an AoEit will do more damage now to all the mobs that are effected. Personally, my SW doesn't have to much trouble clearing. You complain about everything though so I don't know how much you can be trusted
A single tic of damage on first application while the last tics not procing lostmauth is NOT a buff.
My SW is on par with my CW/GF/DC/HR and higher ilvl than my GWF/TR. 55-65% crit and trans fey, and I have slower clear speed than all of those classes I play. There's something fundamentally wrong with the class as a whole. All those magic orange numbers you see are due to scaling that's not WAI and leading SWs into becoming top DPS, only in groups.
No other thing in this game that deals weapon damage could be buffed, like Lostmauth's set was. It is only fair that this change happens.
And since you are nerfing Overpowered stuff, please take a look at the Elven Battle enchantment! That thing is completely overpowered. It completely negates CC. And for a CC class, like an Opressor CW, it completely nullifies me. CC is all I have, and Elven Battle, at trans level, is very close to full control immunity. This is also broken from a game design balance perspective.
a) Does not crit. b) Does not benefit from Combat Advantage [flank] c) Benefits from [de]buffs
For instance, Renegade's feat which adds 30% more damage will result in the proc to hit for 130% damage instead of 100%.
This means that with a party with heavy [de]buffs, your lostmauth' set bonuses will increase accordingly and hit for double or triple the value.
The lowest damage on it is your weapon damage. The highest damage on it is regulated by the [de]buffs, so this means that plaguefire, terror, dread and other enchantments might increase it's effectiveness. The set might become better if the weapon damage increases over-time.
To what extent, I'm unsure at this point, but the damage will not be that great in the end and especially not in the high millions next to the best features you possess. It is slightly better than, let's say, Shadowtouch boon or Elven Ferocity Boon.
Nerf is official. Enjoy.
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Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
This "nerf" is a good thing for the game and combined woth the bubble change, the PvE content will now become a bit less trivial than it has been.
If they could just fix the bonding runestone bug to stop them from stacking more than 3 times I would be really happy.
No it won't. This mostly affects a few classes and doesn't particularly make content any less trivial for most.
People are basically asking that it take longer to finish content without any increase in rewards too. People are too busy asking to be shot in the foot to understand how this is going to affect the game.
amenar actually explained, very clearly, how logic and reason swayed they to this decision. Just as logic and reason swayed me to the same belief. The ONLY reason to not want it fixed is due to the fact that people were essentially forced into choosing the set. In the end, that is not enough reason to let it persist as a broken set.
Rewards for completed content are a whole different matter that should absolutely be discussed.
The thing they're forgetting about is that instead of pigeon holing players into the elol set, they're pigeon holing players into classes that weren't dependent on the set before the nerf. The investments people are going to lose while waiting for cryptic to pick up the pieces and reign class balance back into place are a lot bigger than just the elol set. And for all that content will still be trivial.
<blockquote class="Quote" rel="beckylunatic">And I'm not enough of a number-cruncher to verify if Lostmaunster was always critting before, or only sometimes.</blockquote>
Yes it was.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited April 2016
if i want on wizard increased damage vs the new lostmauth i will chose valindra inteligence and charisma are damage boost recovery is too damage boost since you gonna have more often your encounter ( no matter if you run with spell twist it contributes for faster cooldowns and ap again too.). equip dread enchantment and you will understand what is the difference between 0 recovery and spell twisting and 8k+ recovery + spell twisting.
The thing they're forgetting about is that instead of pigeon holing players into the elol set, they're pigeon holing players into classes that weren't dependent on the set before the nerf. The investments people are going to lose while waiting for cryptic to pick up the pieces and reign class balance back into place are a lot bigger than just the elol set. And for all that content will still be trivial.
This is the main problem I have with this. They let this linger for a long time, too long. Make no mistake, aside from the bit of fanfare way over here on the preview notes, there are going to be a lot of people angry about this. 2/3 of those interested enough to take that unofficial poll by rough estimates would be a good ballpark guess. Many of us will adjust and chalk it up to Cryptic being Cryptic and that truly you are a fool to believe they know what they are ever doing. Nowhere should anyone expect that change will not come, we've seen that proven over and again. But in the face of these types of changes, the character of the company sadly shines through. I would hope by now they realize that taking stuff away from people fundamentally pisses them off. They don't tend to spend their money when they are pissed off. They don't tell their friends they should come back or start playing this game....and yes, probably over dramatically but real, they quit.
I wouldn't quit over this, it's one of a long line of changes that will set me back on some of my toons sure, but meh, I'm less inclined to spend money each time I'm yarded backwards, especially when they set up the target for what is BiS in the first place. I'd be less pissy about these things if there was a smidgen of thought put into how to address simple customer service. Something like retroactively making belts, necks and yeah why not even artifacts all BoA, might ease the sting, at least give a nod towards allowing some flexible reaction by players whenever Cryptic changes something that adversely affects progress.
We'll see how the changes play out, I'm a bit skeptical tbh, they haven't really shown they can ballance anything. I would have preferred a flat damage cap on the set that results in a less drastic nerf in concert with a buff to other sets but they are not likely to invest the time that would require, they said as much. In a nutshell this is easier for them.
I'm excited about these nerfs, I only wish they had been implemented months ago. So tired of all DPS builds being essentially the same thing built around Lostmauth set. Maybe one day we'll get more artifact sets too so people will actually try different builds but that's probably a few mods out. Still, great to see this and bubble finally get nerfed!
A decapitated fighter always quits while he's a head.
I hope there is some mechanism put into place to recover the AD dumped into the lost set. 2x ref doesn't touch the marks and wards from what I understand, not to mention the initial investment of the set.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
This is the end of CWs as a viable DPS class, it seems. Half of Storm Spell procs gone, I hope a buff is coming to other skills and base damage.
how master of flame does viable dps ? i have a thaumaturge friend in my guild and he scores high everytime. i said and other time spellstorm mage is not the wizard both paragons are control wizard!
This is the end of CWs as a viable DPS class, it seems. Half of Storm Spell procs gone, I hope a buff is coming to other skills and base damage.
how master of flame does viable dps ? i have a thaumaturge friend in my guild and he scores high everytime. i said and other time spellstorm mage is not the wizard both paragons are control wizard!
Because they already HAMSTER Storm Spell by 40% damage and the eLoL set was another 20-40% damage for us. Unless you've played a BiS CW from Mod 2 on, you probably don't realize how much CWs have been HAMSTER over. They killed our control, they nerfed some of our best Powers and Paragon feats into oblivion, and with our class feature nerfs and the eLoL set gone, we're pretty much at the bottom of the DPS charts now. Yes, it hurts GWF and SW, but it actually widened their DPS gap. Until they more fairly balance out GWF's stats (from feats) and stop SW stacks from being boosted by outside sources, there won't be any balance.
I've proudly played a CW from day 1 and my class has gotten more nerfs and less buffs to make up for them in every category. Before the eLoL nerf, I was barely out-DPSing 2.8k SWs and 3k GWFs on my nearly 4k CW. That gap has widened exponentially.
I'm a PVE player, as most are, and couldn't give a HAMSTER about how other classes perform in PVP. They need to either address what I mentioned before or CWs need to be right there with TRs and HRs in the next revision.
We're already seeing "Looking for SW/GWF only DPS for *blank*" on Xbox, which is why I semi-quit. This is going to get 10x worse now.
Oh, and to answer that question. Master of Flame is a Paragon Path. He's probably not talking about Spellstorm Mages in-general. It's our universal abilities that are taking the biggest hit. Icy Terrain, Conduit of Ice and Steal Time, specifically. Those are our biggest AoE spells and each one procced the eLoL set. The spells by themselves only do between 8-15k per tick on each mob on a BiS CW. Those are relatively low numbers. And SWs and GWFs are still going to be able to build up high million DPS combos, whereas CWs relied heavily on getting our multiple sources (of now unmodified, pretty much) numbers into the 100k's to keep up. Their combos are still going to reach the millions and CW damage may have literally been cut in half because of this. It only further pushes CWs into the "buff HAMSTER" category and pretty much annihilates Renegade DPS output.
There was not a single issue with the lostmouth set. It gave bonus to crit builds. I do not use a lostmouth set on my op tank. Guess what he is not a crit build. He is an ap build (so uses tiamat set) My dc is not a crit build he uses a black ice set (prior used lathander set) Do NOT say pigeonholed a whole group of classes. The artifact itself is a small symptom of the issue as a whole. Name a class dps wise that does not have an optimal damage build. GWF destroyer, tr executioner, hr pathfinder and the list continues. So do not say the lostmouth set pigeon holes anyone, game mechanics do and the numbers that prove it.
I just tested lostmauth on my Master of Flame CW on preview server. On preview server, I can see lostmauth damage is increased by debuffs such as plague fire and Swath of Destruction (CW class feature).
Before nerf (tested two weeks ago on MoF CW with perfect plaguefire) lostmauth damagage = 6000 to 10k
After nerf (tested one hour ago on MoF CW with perfect plaguefire) lostmauth damagage = 1300 to 2000
Should I change to other set? I don't know. maybe not because my build is very much DoT.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Then modify the imperial set which doesn't even hold up to the Lostmauth set on paper (100% weapon damage vs a"chance" of 25% weapon damage)
Lostmauth's Hoard: The damage dealt by the set bonus, Lostmauth's Vengeance, no longer scales with damage bonuses. It now properly deals Weapon Damage, as stated in the tooltip.
I welcome the change to the LOL set, this is a great step in the right direction. Along with that why not fix the multi-procing of the bonding rune stones? It contributes as much or more to the unintended substantial power creep. This would be a very welcomed fix.
Most ppl think nerfing elol is a good thing. I dont think so, at least its not that good at all. Behind all their explanations and excuses, theres a trap... If they really did care about balances they should have fixed the lostmauth set long time ago. Thing is, OP stuffs are the way they use to hook cash from players. They release overpowered stuffs and give a damn about negative feedbacks. At the point when they have harvested enough cash from the ongoing op stuffs, they sastisfy all the negative feedback-givers by giving a major nerf and slowly replace those stuffs with another overpowered ideas. People who want to stay at BiS gears will, once again have to pay cash in order to buy new gears and RP. The process keeps recycling... you see its a both ways- win situation for cryptic.
This is my prediction: Elol set will become trash and Orcus set will take over the throne. How? the Orcus somehow give u 20% dps all the time and yes they wont fix it in anytime soon, maybe 2 -3 mods later... Who knows?
I just did some tests on preview. Lostmauth's Vengeance now deals 3% of my GWF's total damage against a target dummy. On live it is 33%. While I think that 33% is too much I also think 3% is not enough, especially considering the costs involved in obtaining and upgrading the three set pieces.
I'd like to know how the set compares to the other damage increasing sets? Unfortunately I don't have those sets, especially the new Demon Lord's Immortality set. Why don't you provide a merchant on the preview server selling those sets? It'll help people make informed decisions.
Anything on the black ice set? A chance of 10% penetrating weapon damage? Not nearly on par with the other stuff around. i would love to use it, if not useless. I play a SW, and get sick everytime i see my lostmouth set, instead.
Whoever thinks this nerf is a good idea ur wrong leave the set alone what will it balance if every dps class is currently using it nothing lol just make all of us weaker plus it's been out for over 8 months y bother with it now especially after it was voted overwhelmingly to not be nerfed and especially after people have refined the whole set to legendary just leave it alone
Not sure if this has been said yet but....lostmauth is better than imperial the instant you reach 26 percent crit chance. ...which everyone should have. So unless the orcus set actually does something good (still not sure what that tooltip means) ....all dps classes will still use it.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Most ppl think nerfing elol is a good thing. I dont think so, at least its not that good at all. Behind all their explanations and excuses, theres a trap... If they really did care about balances they should have fixed the lostmauth set long time ago. Thing is, OP stuffs are the way they use to hook cash from players. They release overpowered stuffs and give a damn about negative feedbacks. At the point when they have harvested enough cash from the ongoing op stuffs, they sastisfy all the negative feedback-givers by giving a major nerf and slowly replace those stuffs with another overpowered ideas. People who want to stay at BiS gears will, once again have to pay cash in order to buy new gears and RP. The process keeps recycling... you see its a both ways- win situation for cryptic.
This is my prediction: Elol set will become trash and Orcus set will take over the throne. How? the Orcus somehow give u 20% dps all the time and yes they wont fix it in anytime soon, maybe 2 -3 mods later... Who knows?
if you know so much details for orcus what is exactly the bug ?
Hello, I just think they could make eLOL SET proc on HR's DoT's. Makes no sense when like 90% of the damage comming from HR (dot's) don't proc their set, which would make them a "playable" class (judging from opinions of many ppl).
I love playing HR, it's really fun and there's a lot of stuff you need to do/know besides just autoattacking like GWF does.. But if the set doesn't make the ticks fom the dot's proc, it is a big loss in damage..
Comments
Lostmauth's set is critting and benefitting from Power/Damage bonuses in the same way.
Almost, 1 year later, it is fixed due to the same argument.
The problem isn't that it was fixed, the real problem is the time that took them to fix it. Anyway, It is a good change and it is very exciting to test new builds. In theory, it should be a good boost in dmg (2%-5%) which is more than enough.
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Does not compete at all with WMS spam. TR can just WWoB in stealth and drop a smoke bomb. The mobs will be dead long before the SW gets his mobs below half health.
Personally, my SW doesn't have to much trouble clearing. You complain about everything though so I don't know how much you can be trusted
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A class shouldnt have to rely so heavily on a set to produce competitive results. SW itself needs a major rework, the whole class is a clunky mess.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
My SW is on par with my CW/GF/DC/HR and higher ilvl than my GWF/TR. 55-65% crit and trans fey, and I have slower clear speed than all of those classes I play. There's something fundamentally wrong with the class as a whole. All those magic orange numbers you see are due to scaling that's not WAI and leading SWs into becoming top DPS, only in groups.
No other thing in this game that deals weapon damage could be buffed, like Lostmauth's set was. It is only fair that this change happens.
And since you are nerfing Overpowered stuff, please take a look at the Elven Battle enchantment! That thing is completely overpowered. It completely negates CC. And for a CC class, like an Opressor CW, it completely nullifies me. CC is all I have, and Elven Battle, at trans level, is very close to full control immunity. This is also broken from a game design balance perspective.
Leliana C.W. - Opressor CW
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Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
I can confirm that the Lostmauth' set
a) Does not crit.
b) Does not benefit from Combat Advantage [flank]
c) Benefits from [de]buffs
For instance, Renegade's feat which adds 30% more damage will result in the proc to hit for 130% damage instead of 100%.
This means that with a party with heavy [de]buffs, your lostmauth' set bonuses will increase accordingly and hit for double or triple the value.
The lowest damage on it is your weapon damage. The highest damage on it is regulated by the [de]buffs, so this means that plaguefire, terror, dread and other enchantments might increase it's effectiveness.
The set might become better if the weapon damage increases over-time.
To what extent, I'm unsure at this point, but the damage will not be that great in the end and especially not in the high millions next to the best features you possess. It is slightly better than, let's say, Shadowtouch boon or Elven Ferocity Boon.
Nerf is official. Enjoy.
The thing they're forgetting about is that instead of pigeon holing players into the elol set, they're pigeon holing players into classes that weren't dependent on the set before the nerf. The investments people are going to lose while waiting for cryptic to pick up the pieces and reign class balance back into place are a lot bigger than just the elol set. And for all that content will still be trivial.
Yes it was.
I wouldn't quit over this, it's one of a long line of changes that will set me back on some of my toons sure, but meh, I'm less inclined to spend money each time I'm yarded backwards, especially when they set up the target for what is BiS in the first place. I'd be less pissy about these things if there was a smidgen of thought put into how to address simple customer service. Something like retroactively making belts, necks and yeah why not even artifacts all BoA, might ease the sting, at least give a nod towards allowing some flexible reaction by players whenever Cryptic changes something that adversely affects progress.
We'll see how the changes play out, I'm a bit skeptical tbh, they haven't really shown they can ballance anything. I would have preferred a flat damage cap on the set that results in a less drastic nerf in concert with a buff to other sets but they are not likely to invest the time that would require, they said as much. In a nutshell this is easier for them.
I've proudly played a CW from day 1 and my class has gotten more nerfs and less buffs to make up for them in every category. Before the eLoL nerf, I was barely out-DPSing 2.8k SWs and 3k GWFs on my nearly 4k CW. That gap has widened exponentially.
I'm a PVE player, as most are, and couldn't give a HAMSTER about how other classes perform in PVP. They need to either address what I mentioned before or CWs need to be right there with TRs and HRs in the next revision.
We're already seeing "Looking for SW/GWF only DPS for *blank*" on Xbox, which is why I semi-quit. This is going to get 10x worse now.
Oh, and to answer that question. Master of Flame is a Paragon Path. He's probably not talking about Spellstorm Mages in-general. It's our universal abilities that are taking the biggest hit. Icy Terrain, Conduit of Ice and Steal Time, specifically. Those are our biggest AoE spells and each one procced the eLoL set. The spells by themselves only do between 8-15k per tick on each mob on a BiS CW. Those are relatively low numbers. And SWs and GWFs are still going to be able to build up high million DPS combos, whereas CWs relied heavily on getting our multiple sources (of now unmodified, pretty much) numbers into the 100k's to keep up. Their combos are still going to reach the millions and CW damage may have literally been cut in half because of this. It only further pushes CWs into the "buff HAMSTER" category and pretty much annihilates Renegade DPS output.
On preview server, I can see lostmauth damage is increased by debuffs such as plague fire and Swath of Destruction (CW class feature).
Before nerf (tested two weeks ago on MoF CW with perfect plaguefire)
lostmauth damagage = 6000 to 10k
After nerf (tested one hour ago on MoF CW with perfect plaguefire)
lostmauth damagage = 1300 to 2000
Should I change to other set? I don't know. maybe not because my build is very much DoT.
I welcome the change to the LOL set, this is a great step in the right direction. Along with that why not fix the multi-procing of the bonding rune stones? It contributes as much or more to the unintended substantial power creep. This would be a very welcomed fix.
This is my prediction: Elol set will become trash and Orcus set will take over the throne. How? the Orcus somehow give u 20% dps all the time and yes they wont fix it in anytime soon, maybe 2 -3 mods later... Who knows?
This is Spartan bae.
I'd like to know how the set compares to the other damage increasing sets? Unfortunately I don't have those sets, especially the new Demon Lord's Immortality set. Why don't you provide a merchant on the preview server selling those sets? It'll help people make informed decisions.
A chance of 10% penetrating weapon damage? Not nearly on par with the other stuff around.
i would love to use it, if not useless.
I play a SW, and get sick everytime i see my lostmouth set, instead.
So now you're telling us that, no, they didn't do that, it still benefits from buffs, they just removed crits?
....all dps classes will still use it.
I just think they could make eLOL SET proc on HR's DoT's. Makes no sense when like 90% of the damage comming from HR (dot's) don't proc their set, which would make them a "playable" class (judging from opinions of many ppl).
I love playing HR, it's really fun and there's a lot of stuff you need to do/know besides just autoattacking like GWF does.. But if the set doesn't make the ticks fom the dot's proc, it is a big loss in damage..