I think this round of nerfs is just the first one. It is difficult to assess dps levels before they change Lostmauth, so most likely Cryptic will look into class dps levels once the Lostmauth change is in and the community has adapted. I still expect GWF and maybe SW dps nerfs to hit later, and hopefully some CW buffing
SW needs a rework rather than simple nerfs. SW is NOT a DPS god or close to top tier DPS by itself. It's only pushed to stupidly broken levels with very bad interaction with party buffs that over scale damage of specific things by way way more than they should.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
This is a welcome fix. Now that the set is in line, the devs can gauge better how classes really compare in terms of DPS, and act accordingly. PS: CWs are NOT primary DD. They are already doing good, and the changes to eLoL set actually bring full DPS classes like GWF and SW closer to them. But being CWs secondary, and not primary, strikers, they must NOT be on par with SW,GWF,HR,TR in terms of DPS.
HRs and TRs out-CC CWs? CC is not needed in dungeons? Then ask for changes to make your primary CC role clear and useful again. You picked CONTROL WIZARD class. Ask for buffs to your control role.
@pando83 I don't care about rolls etc or your perceived notions of how hard a class should hit, but when my wizard is hitting for less than a dps specced DC or a DPS specced GF (which are gasp support classes) with his DPS spec, there is something WRONG with his damage, not his control, his DAMAGE. Control is another issue entirely. Btw, look forward to dps specced GFs hitting harder than your dps specced GWF with the lolset nerf, because I expect it to happen with these GF buffs.
Well, I tried to kill some mobs in WoD (instead of dummies), and LM damage was EVEN lower than weapon damage! Make it AT LEAST piercing damage or make it crit. On the other hand, I must admit that LM set was dealing too much damage (>30%)
I saw the same thing in IceWind Dale on my CW who has 44% resistance ignored (no SH boons on preview). Lostmauth damage is less than weapon damage. How much resistance ignored do you have on preview server? I hope it can be fixed with more armor penetration.
Same thing, no ArP SH boon in preview. I tested GWF, CW and TR, and all of them deal less than weapon damage. All three have less than 60% RI and with vorpal slotted, so no debuffs.
Must say that all three toons had 25-30% dmg from LM set (while soloing). Now after nerf, GWF achieved 4-5% dmg only, CW and TR a bit more, approx. 10%. While all of them are dps specced and about 2.6-2.7k IL, a 25% loss when playing GWF is noticeable, I mean, without bubble and quite a big loss in GWFs dps, which supposed to be a "primary" striker... well, just read armadeonx post above.
Don't take me wrong and as I said before, an "adjustment" to LM dmg was necessary. But again, make nerfs doable.
Why are cryptic devs actually opening this thread? What is needed to justify a fix of something that has not been working as intended since the beginning? the set should do weapon damage on crits, and now is doing weapon damage on crits. if cryptic devs actually did all their work properly the first time nothing of this would be happening. AND of course that's not going to happen because these "slips" create openings that they know people will jump and pay to use...
So to everyone complaining about it, you jumped in the damage boost wagon, used it (if you are smart, profited from it) and now it is fixed. deal with it.
when cryptic closes a door they crank open a window, it is good for their busines... just wait for new sets, maybe that orcus one.
Im afraid you guys will Nerf Lostmauth set bonus and create a second lostmauth with the Orcus set bonus. Prices of Orcus set are sky rocking now .. so are you fixing the problem ? nope you are just replacing it.
Leader of Pure Evil, Sword Guild in the Primacy Alliance.
@thefabricant I'll tell you right away, set or no set, a DPS specced GF with KC and ITF and all the right goodie buffs hits way harder than my BIS GWF single hit wise. Only reason they can't be proper DPS as of yet is because they lack the aoe's and the movement. But yo, since GF's are already hideous in PVP and do such poor damage (sarcasm detected), they might get extra buffs one day and maybe *gasp* be on par with the DD's. Bottom line being, they need a serious tonedown, no matter how you put it.
This is a welcome fix. Now that the set is in line, the devs can gauge better how classes really compare in terms of DPS, and act accordingly. PS: CWs are NOT primary DD. They are already doing good, and the changes to eLoL set actually bring full DPS classes like GWF and SW closer to them. But being CWs secondary, and not primary, strikers, they must NOT be on par with SW,GWF,HR,TR in terms of DPS.
HRs and TRs out-CC CWs? CC is not needed in dungeons? Then ask for changes to make your primary CC role clear and useful again. You picked CONTROL WIZARD class. Ask for buffs to your control role.
This is the perfect example of complete lack of understanding D&D's concept of attacking. In D&D, no matter the edition, Wizards, Sorcerers, Shamans etc etc always will hit harder than any striker ever will!
I didn't even mention metamagic and all the illusionist ways of destroying things once you hit the max level.
There is a reason why Wizards in most RPGs are considered to be a sort of a NUKE factor, dealing highest super-damage with a slower casting.
However, here, everyone have their nukes if utilized good. I see that you don't play as a Wizard and as such your opinion is completely biased because you don't know just how much handicap is placed on the Wizard classes in general and to what extent we must prepare our rotations, timing and utilization in order to be powerful and pleasant for the entire party. It is, easily, the highest amount of preparation and skill required in Neverwinter. So this means that if we miss, even for 1 second, we LOSE massively. In a sense it's also a stress-play since we know that we will never be able to have the highest single-target damage and the dungeons are turning into eLoL. Fewer enemies, fewer AoE damage.
CC was fixed to an extent, all bosses and all elites are CC immune. That's why there is no point in trying to go into a CC way.
CWs were CC oriented to an extent, back then you'd get a lot of Singularity + Shard combos and people yelling at Wizards "WHERE IS THE SINGULARITY > _ < ", "OMG NO SING" and stuff like that in dungeons.
Even when CWs were OP in MOD4/5 (but not as OP as broken SW TT was), CWs were still easy targets in PvP for instance. And CWs needed yet again to utilize the full rotation in order to be useful, and that rotation needed to it the limit of 6 sec, gathering of all enemies in the place and actually doing something viable.
Compared to TR's ability of holding the right click for super-high single target damage (yay bleed), GWF's ability to hold left-click and occasionally pressing [tab]qwerty123 whilst not caring for spells such as "come and get it" and doing STUPID super-high DAMAGE with Indomitable Battle Strike, HR's uber spamming of the powers until your hands drop down and finally SW's TT that's practically a Wizard's spell is NOWHERE near the level of fine-coated gameplay that the CWs have mastered over the years. So, no, you're wrong in thinking that CW should not be a DPS class. And, yes, it makes no sense to have a Healer and Tank doing more damage than the Wizard class. Nowhere, anywhere in the world of MMORPG and D&D alone do you have such a blasphemy.
The only class which got nerfed beyond reason is CW, and this is majorily because people always had a knack for utilizing this class in the best possible ways.
But that's okay that you don't know because it actually takes high investment of reason and knowledge in order to understand why CW's are seriously handicapped. Whoever thinks otherwise simply doesn't care.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Sadly, your babbling falls from its own weight for two single reasons:
- All CW's encounters are almost instant casted, which nullifies the "breaking wizard's concentration when being struck" rule which you propperly ignored at all... And, obviously, devs can't do "random casts" to mimic the "attack throw" req at all..
- Another thing that you propperly ignored too is the fact that Wizards only can have a limited number of casts per day.
So, you just brought here the bests feats from CWs but not a single flaw at all ... So, from your own explanations, you are just another player who enjoys being a god... BTW.
CW's ability to hold left-click and occasionally pressing [tab]qwerty123 and kill players like if they were on PvE maps
Fixed for you. n_n
1. I'm not here to argue semantics about the daily use of powers and the tabletop RPG. Obviously the video game is different from the D&D conceptin terms of execution and interface. Clearly you forget that HR's also spam encounters as they please, as much as they please, faster than any other class in-game. This is a fact. However, you're missing the point by a longshot by adding irrelevant data thinking that it somehow turns into the argument to counter mine. It doesn't counter anything I've previously stated. Perhaps you should actually counter it with logic, especially when you go on about "babbling". Only shows your inability to discuss.
2. On the other note, Control-Wizard's casting can be interrupted. This is also a fact. Anything that pushes you, even slightly, will break the casting of a spell. Instant-spells are few and they're all single-target, which is why they're used in the PvP. All classes have instant-cast spells. AoE-wise and PvE- wise any damage that you suffer whilst casting will break the casting itself, as well as the animation for it. In order to successfully do an AoE rotation you have to go close to the targets. Other classes usually do not suffer this sort of a deal. Casting at-wills as a Wizard usually always freezes you to a spot without the ability to move, at all, until the animation is done. The only class that suffers more with this is DC, but that's out of the point.
3. "Best feats of a CW" - lol
4. Your whole argument for the "fix" is completely anarchic and I doubt that even you knew what you wanted to imply with it.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
1. I'm not here to argue semantics about the daily use of powers and the tabletop RPG. Obviously the video game is different from the D&D conceptin terms of execution and interface. Clearly you forget that HR's also spam encounters as they please, as much as they please, faster than any other class in-game. This is a fact. However, you're missing the point by a longshot by adding irrelevant data thinking that it somehow turns into the argument to counter mine. It doesn't counter anything I've previously stated. Perhaps you should actually counter it with logic, especially when you go on about "babbling". Only shows your inability to discuss.
2. On the other note, Control-Wizard's casting can be interrupted. This is also a fact. Anything that pushes you, even slightly, will break the casting of a spell. Instant-spells are few and they're all single-target, which is why they're used in the PvP. All classes have instant-cast spells. AoE-wise and PvE- wise any damage that you suffer whilst casting will break the casting itself, as well as the animation for it. In order to successfully do an AoE rotation you have to go close to the targets. Other classes usually do not suffer this sort of a deal. Casting at-wills as a Wizard usually always freezes you to a spot without the ability to move, at all, until the animation is done. The only class that suffers more with this is DC, but that's out of the point.
3. "Best feats of a CW" - lol
4. Your whole argument for the "fix" is completely anarchic and I doubt that even you knew what you wanted to imply with it.
1 - Then, you should have never brough up that argument about "wizards on RPGs are nukes". Plain and Simple.
2 - Wrong. You can interrup some "long" encounters from ANY class, not just from CW-class, IF you "dissable" (stun, daze, prone, etc) that character, not if you actually HIT that character.
3 - Do you mean "Disintegrate"? Or we can go to other encounters like Icy Terrain, Steal Time, Icy rays, Ray of enfeblement, etc and some others used on PvP... Ams, sorry, you meant "activating shield in the midle of a fight", my mistake.
4 - That's because you weren't here around mod2 and 3 were most CWs were crying rivers of tears because they couldn't CC GWFs during unstop or stating falsely that the class under performed back there when, in reallity, some CWs were melting every one in PvP just wearing R5s and HV set... Or, if you were actually playing the game, then, you should have knew then by my comment that most CWs on PVP were just TABQER, staying on the spot and then, come to forums, complaining about "they couldnt kill a thing on PvP"...
1. What? Wtf. Again, you base no substantial argument to support your view. At this point you have no view, you just dislike the fact that I'm talking about how underpowered CWs are with another person which frankly doesn't even have anything to do with you. As such, you prolonged the discussion for no apparent reason other than spite you nurture for some reason. Apparently, you hate Control Wizards which is how I perceive your current behavior due to the complete lack of knowledge and logic behind your statements. Question is - do you even play Control Wizards?
2. Nothing is wrong here aside from your ways of seeing things. Control Wizard spells can be interrupted which counter-arguments your analogy that CW spells can't be interrupted, plain and simple. The end on the argument that you totally lost. Do not repeat it anymore, please, since you won't do anything aside from talking to yourself.
3. Completely irrelevant and has nothing to do with anything that I, or anyone other in the topic, stated. In fact, you brought up something completely irrelevant to begin with, thus prolonging the unreasonable spam at this point without making any point. I hope that you understand what it takes to make a point since you obviously want to discuss something that's only happening in your head. Maybe I'm interrupting the discussion that you have with yourself?
4. Snip - Perhaps you should check when I joined before you embarrass yourself even more from going into completely stupid arguing that I've no interest into.
5. Thinking now, you're obviously thinking solely about the PvP playing which is one of the worst aspects of the Neverwinter Online to begin with, with complete lack of balance whatsoever. I never experienced such a silly PvP in any MMORPG that I've previously played. If you are talking from a PvP perspective then you're sillier than Looney Tunes because that's not what I'm arguing about, at all. In fact, it would be a complete waste of time and effort to even discuss PvP.
So, to sum it up, either produce a valid counter-argument to my statements or simply don't bother me with what you perceive the discussion is. This is tedious for me to do and explain why you fail to even make a discussion.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Sorry, I were typing my answer to you but i just noticed that you, basically, used my argument to make yours. I mean, obviously, a player will not wait 30 secs to cast, in example, Icy Terrain to deal inmense damage. So, the trade-off is "faster cast times in exchange of damage" yet you want that... but not JUST that, you also want to CONTROL a mob with that very same power too which, imo, its a bad situation for everyone... like happened back on mod4, no one picking GFs, DCs, HRs, and all other classes but CWs and GWFs to run dungeons (A party which could self-heal, deal inmense damage and control mobs like madmen) . So, my question to you is why do you really think that the CW-class is "really handicapped"? Hope your answer has nothing to do which "fill 2 or more roles on 1 team" as happened before mod6... and, on which, sadly, we stand on almost that very same spot again...
Your responses are idiotic and dumbfounding. You've obviously never played a CW or you wouldn't make half of these unbiased comments. You state that our "role" is CC, when CC is dead. So if they gave CWs back the CC they had from vanilla-Mod 3, you wouldn't HAMSTER? If our Arcane Singularity, Shard of the Endless Avalanche and Steal Time went back to having no target limits? Face is, CC 'is' dead, as I said. That leaves only the "role" of DPS. Since there are only tanks/healers/DPS in this game now, you can't cherry-pick what one class gets and the others don't. Until they fix CC, CW should have an equal shot at highest DPS. And there's nothing you can say that would make it otherwise. They have a CC tree, which is dead. They have a buff tree, from which the DPS is dead. And they have a pure DPS tree, which is pretty weak right now. The fact that CWs have a pure DPS Paragon path completely nullifies everything you've said and you're just a relic of the past that still hasn't been un-butthurt by the few moments CWs were actually viable.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
This is a welcome fix. Now that the set is in line, the devs can gauge better how classes really compare in terms of DPS, and act accordingly. PS: CWs are NOT primary DD. They are already doing good, and the changes to eLoL set actually bring full DPS classes like GWF and SW closer to them. But being CWs secondary, and not primary, strikers, they must NOT be on par with SW,GWF,HR,TR in terms of DPS.
HRs and TRs out-CC CWs? CC is not needed in dungeons? Then ask for changes to make your primary CC role clear and useful again. You picked CONTROL WIZARD class. Ask for buffs to your control role.
@pando83 I don't care about rolls etc or your perceived notions of how hard a class should hit, but when my wizard is hitting for less than a dps specced DC or a DPS specced GF (which are gasp support classes) with his DPS spec, there is something WRONG with his damage, not his control, his DAMAGE. Control is another issue entirely. Btw, look forward to dps specced GFs hitting harder than your dps specced GWF with the lolset nerf, because I expect it to happen with these GF buffs.
when you are in pt with gf you get the same buff right? you talk like the buff benefit only gf. gf need tone down to weapon damage which is the 2nd best after great weapon fighter. they have mark which is 20% damage for them so much increase to weapon damage they didnt need it.
Lol clonkyo 1 u must be a sw or gwf if u can't see spirituals point cc is dead I'm and oppressor thaum specd for control with over 50% in control bonus and can't keep a mob iced over for more then 2 or 3 seconds control is dead and if u really have played this game since the beginning u would know the cw has been nerfed more than any class as far as our dps goes which makes no sense however u look at it we have one of the lowest armor classes in the game and pull more aggro the any other class including pally and gf I can pull both scorpions in lostmauth away from any pally or gf with my cw no matter what they do and now with no control what's the only other option to have more dps to kill them but no we don't have that either due to constant nerfs to our damage because we are supposed to be CONTROL wizards but with these nerfs to dps there are no buffs to control duration that is why the cw community is in such an uproar either give us control or gI've us more dps the class is usless without either I mean come on I get 1 shot by an acid spider in etos without a bubble and I'm 3500 il fact is whoever is trying to balance our class is doing horrible no dps no control lowest armor class and hit points and the most aggro how does that make any sense my whole guild even the cw haters can realize were crapped on more then any other class besides Maybe the tr and all the while the sw and gwf remain top dps and no talks of balancing I mean come on take the warlock for instance they nerfed the splash damage of tyrannical threat by 50% from mod 5 to mod 6 then they introduce the the sigil of the devoted which allows them to use tyrannical threat every 60 seconds lol I mean come on yeah nerf the damage but now u can use tt on every mob u walk up to in a t2 and yet they say there class isn't broken it's all party buffs blah blah blah if ur in a party all players in the dungeon are receiving the buffs yet they can still out dps similar geared classes including gwf by millions upon millions and don't even get me going on the puppet fact is something has to change with the cw or nerf all other classes as heavy as the cw has been nerfed end of story this game if far from balanced and nerfing the lostmauth sent won't help anything
1. I didn't write about anything that you want to talk about. That's first. Once you realize this you'd might also realize that you're assuming too much thinking that I've said or implied something which I, in fact, did not. If you still feel that I somehow implied something that makes no sense or is "just a blabber", you're completely entitled to your opinion. I, however, will always state how things are regardless of how you feel it sounded or made you think or perceive or whatever to that effect. That's only just and fair imho. 2. Icy Terrain power : - Icy Terrain does the least damage out of all the CW spells. - It is, in fact, the weakest damaging spell for a control wizard. - Just recently happened to make a bug to me, not applying the necessary Chill stacks nor damage, at all. I don't have 100k AD to waste each time something like this happen, and trust me it happens more than you'd imagine. - The power alone is reportedly bugged because it's doing the single-target damage instead of the area of effect damage. Anyone who uses ACT can confirm this by applying Focused Wizardry feat to increase it's outgoing damage. - People tend to use a lot of Control-Based powers when Icy Terrain is active on-ground. Powers such as Devoted Cleric's Sunburst. One Sunburst can effectively break the entire rotation for a Control Wizard. GWF's power Frontline Surge does the same thing. GF can do the same. OP can do the same. With all of that said, the only thing that can effectively return the mobs to the Icy Terrain's spot would the the Control Wizard who's using the Master of Flame specialization and the Daily power Furious Immolation that can gather up to 8 mobs who are of regular size. This effectively prevents the Wizard to cast the Oppressive Force because by the time CW gets a chance, DC, GWF, GF or OP will scatter them around like paper. So you have to type to people to "please don't scatter mobs around, keep them on the Icy Terrain, it will be faster, thank you". As trolly as people can get, this produces even more Sunburst, Frontline Surge and whatnot. Even when the targets are frozen, they still get pushed away. Keep in mind that certain mobs will not get frozen no matter what, and that alone is already 50% less damage for the current meta CW. Only the people who know how to play the Wizard understand how important it is to keep the mobs at Icy Terrain level. This can be fixed by adding more to the Icy Veins options in one of the paragon trees which effectively reduces the recovery because there will be no Spell Twisting feat. - Singularity Daily is not of much help and is at least 500% worse than it's counterpart Furious Immolation. - Recovery on it's own is a terrible stat in the current set of events. - Elite mobs effectively are 25% more immune to everything and especially the CC. Only recently in MOD9 did the monsters get some lesser CC manifestation. So unless you run as Oppressor you can't really freeze the monsters for the longer period of times. - Entangling Force works in PvP on players for the most time, but you can't use it on the bosses, you can't use it on the elites and on top of that you can't use it to do some amazing damage. The spell itself is simply not that potent to be used in the PvE to begin with, unless it's on the lower levels or for the utilization of the Steal Time spell for the benefit of the Arcane Stacks (one of the Renegade Feats for which you need to have 5 enemies and Entangling Force on Spell Mastery).
When we talk about the Control Wizards, the real talk is about how good the various powers can work in synergy, one with another, whilst also getting the benefit from the Feature spells. When one of those things are not met, the Wizard can't simply say "Ok, no biggy" because CW losses a huge portion of damage dealt, AP gain and effective combat itself, resulting the next encounter fight to start half-assed no matter how you look at it.
Now, why are the Control Wizards underpowered?
First of all, CC got reduced back in the days because of the PvP clients. This reflected to the poor play in the dungeons, and no damage. Then the damage buff came as a compensation. Then the CWs did crazy damage, but not without completely utilizing every little single aspect of the build. You needed to play 100% in order to get all that CW damage. And it was good since it didn't feel like you're doing nothing. Second of all, Damage got reduced drastically because of the StormSpell nerf. Then the EotS nerf. Then the LM came into the play. Third of all, LM set got fixed in the meantime, thus the CWs lost a huge chunk of damage. This is why some of the CWs are going to leave the game.
Now, you can play CW as a DPS, CC, BUFF or a JoaT *Jack of all trades* in a sense. This means that CWs don't excel in anything in particular, thus making their entire play irrelevant for anything but the party buffs. This is why a rework is much needed.
What doesn't feel correct is doing all sorts of crazy rotations (that CW's usually do better than any other class), and still be below average whilst the person holding the left-click and smoking a cigarette is constantly topping you for 3-4-5 x in everything. OFC you wouldn't want to play as a CW anymore, you'd probably switch to the next best choice which would be either a SW or GWF.
Unfortunately, what regulates this game is not the PVE content but rather the outcries from the nasty PVP enthusiasts who are de facto investing more money for the sake of having the best possible equipment. I was amazingly glad when most of them left the game back when MOD6 kicked in. I knew a lot of people who invested around 2000$ back then in their equipment, and in an instant, it practically became obsolete. Served them right for crying on the forums about nerfing Wizards.
So, I leave you at that because frankly at this point you're just boring and it's evident, to a fault, that you have no idea how it is for a CW to squeeze out the dps, especially after so many nerfs which didn't really balance anything for HAMSTER.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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flehstifferMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 167Arc User
so yeah, nerf happened. I lost dps. Not enough to care, the nerf was long overdue.
You're losing less of your normal DPS as a Lightning enchant user than a Vorpal user would be, is my first thought.
This is true. But, the reason I use lightning instead of Vorpal, is because it gives so much more damage (yes, even before the nerf). If anything, this shows that the nerf is simply going to change what is best for CW, and people just have to figure out what that is.
I did a bit more testing today, with longer rotations, to get a more accurate picture of what was happening, but percentages only changed by maybe 1%, so I wont post anything new about my TR or CW. What I will post, however, is my testing on GWF.
First, on live: lostmauth damage ranges from 3729 to 23,997
and on preview: lostmauth damage ranges from 1708 to 2470
I would appreciate if other GWF players could go through and test this as well, because this seems to confirm something that I have personally long believed.
Lostmauth does something like 30% of the damage for both CW and GWF (exact values vary, but its close enough), but the reason it does 30% is different for each class.
For the GWF, as with most things, crazy self+party buffs can make lostmauth hit for insane quantities, (my 2k gwf had it hit for 24k, obviously not weapon damage), so, GWF's get a few, very hard hits out of lostmauth, and these hard hits make up about 30% of their damage. I have seen ACT logs of GWF's getting lostmauth hits for over 100k.
The CW, on the other hand, uses a lot of smaller DOT's to proc lostmauth, and never gets the same extent, in my personal testing, I think the highest lostmauth hit I've seen in 10k on a CW. But, CW's proc lostmauth so often, that it still makes up a significant portion of their damage. i.e. CW gets many more smaller hits than GWF, which means, after this nerf, CW will still benefit from lostmauth more than the GWF will.
One thing I would really like to know is how this manages to keep in a party setting. Will the de/buffs being thrown around nullify this? or not?
So, to all the people calling the death of the CW (*cough* @thefabricant *cough*), what do you think? I've gotta say, I really don't think this change hurts the CW as much as some people are saying. I don't think it will be very hard for us to adapt.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
when you are in pt with gf you get the same buff right? you talk like the buff benefit only gf. gf need tone down to weapon damage which is the 2nd best after great weapon fighter. they have mark which is 20% damage for them so much increase to weapon damage they didnt need it.
A dps GF doesn't use itf or any other buffs for that matter, because they are fulling a dps role and not a support role, if you are taking a dps gf, you take a buffer GF in addition to them.
so yeah, nerf happened. I lost dps. Not enough to care, the nerf was long overdue.
You're losing less of your normal DPS as a Lightning enchant user than a Vorpal user would be, is my first thought.
This is true. But, the reason I use lightning instead of Vorpal, is because it gives so much more damage (yes, even before the nerf). If anything, this shows that the nerf is simply going to change what is best for CW, and people just have to figure out what that is.
I did a bit more testing today, with longer rotations, to get a more accurate picture of what was happening, but percentages only changed by maybe 1%, so I wont post anything new about my TR or CW. What I will post, however, is my testing on GWF.
First, on live: lostmauth damage ranges from 3729 to 23,997
and on preview: lostmauth damage ranges from 1708 to 2470
I would appreciate if other GWF players could go through and test this as well, because this seems to confirm something that I have personally long believed.
Lostmauth does something like 30% of the damage for both CW and GWF (exact values vary, but its close enough), but the reason it does 30% is different for each class.
For the GWF, as with most things, crazy self+party buffs can make lostmauth hit for insane quantities, (my 2k gwf had it hit for 24k, obviously not weapon damage), so, GWF's get a few, very hard hits out of lostmauth, and these hard hits make up about 30% of their damage. I have seen ACT logs of GWF's getting lostmauth hits for over 100k.
The CW, on the other hand, uses a lot of smaller DOT's to proc lostmauth, and never gets the same extent, in my personal testing, I think the highest lostmauth hit I've seen in 10k on a CW. But, CW's proc lostmauth so often, that it still makes up a significant portion of their damage. i.e. CW gets many more smaller hits than GWF, which means, after this nerf, CW will still benefit from lostmauth more than the GWF will.
One thing I would really like to know is how this manages to keep in a party setting. Will the de/buffs being thrown around nullify this? or not?
So, to all the people calling the death of the CW (*cough* @thefabricant *cough*), what do you think? I've gotta say, I really don't think this change hurts the CW as much as some people are saying. I don't think it will be very hard for us to adapt.
@flehstiffer when running with a buff party I lost 31% of my dps on preview in comparison to live, same party, using dragon heralds as a test.
Seriously, fabricant, who cares about the damage numbers in your super high geared, buffed to the max, level 20 sh boons groups. You can't balance the game around that.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
when you are in pt with gf you get the same buff right? you talk like the buff benefit only gf. gf need tone down to weapon damage which is the 2nd best after great weapon fighter. they have mark which is 20% damage for them so much increase to weapon damage they didnt need it.
A dps GF doesn't use itf or any other buffs for that matter, because they are fulling a dps role and not a support role, if you are taking a dps gf, you take a buffer GF in addition to them.
so yeah, nerf happened. I lost dps. Not enough to care, the nerf was long overdue.
You're losing less of your normal DPS as a Lightning enchant user than a Vorpal user would be, is my first thought.
This is true. But, the reason I use lightning instead of Vorpal, is because it gives so much more damage (yes, even before the nerf). If anything, this shows that the nerf is simply going to change what is best for CW, and people just have to figure out what that is.
I did a bit more testing today, with longer rotations, to get a more accurate picture of what was happening, but percentages only changed by maybe 1%, so I wont post anything new about my TR or CW. What I will post, however, is my testing on GWF.
First, on live: lostmauth damage ranges from 3729 to 23,997
and on preview: lostmauth damage ranges from 1708 to 2470
I would appreciate if other GWF players could go through and test this as well, because this seems to confirm something that I have personally long believed.
Lostmauth does something like 30% of the damage for both CW and GWF (exact values vary, but its close enough), but the reason it does 30% is different for each class.
For the GWF, as with most things, crazy self+party buffs can make lostmauth hit for insane quantities, (my 2k gwf had it hit for 24k, obviously not weapon damage), so, GWF's get a few, very hard hits out of lostmauth, and these hard hits make up about 30% of their damage. I have seen ACT logs of GWF's getting lostmauth hits for over 100k.
The CW, on the other hand, uses a lot of smaller DOT's to proc lostmauth, and never gets the same extent, in my personal testing, I think the highest lostmauth hit I've seen in 10k on a CW. But, CW's proc lostmauth so often, that it still makes up a significant portion of their damage. i.e. CW gets many more smaller hits than GWF, which means, after this nerf, CW will still benefit from lostmauth more than the GWF will.
One thing I would really like to know is how this manages to keep in a party setting. Will the de/buffs being thrown around nullify this? or not?
So, to all the people calling the death of the CW (*cough* @thefabricant *cough*), what do you think? I've gotta say, I really don't think this change hurts the CW as much as some people are saying. I don't think it will be very hard for us to adapt.
@flehstiffer when running with a buff party I lost 31% of my dps on preview in comparison to live, same party, using dragon heralds as a test.
i dont mind anymore the lostmauth set for that small additional hit will do. it scales when applied debuffs but is not so much increase. i will chose valindra belt ( maybe can combine it with other amulet and artifact or go full set) because : +2 inteligence means 2 % damage and 2% recharge speed( i need recharge speed and critical for my build with dread) + 2 charisma is 2% critical change 2% companion stat and 2% combat advantage damage ( not sure if is really 2% or is 0.2%) and ofcourse the power-critical-recovery. THE new lostmauth give me str dex and the wai bonus = useless for cw unless if you want to deflect and dodge more i dont know.
Sorry, I were typing my answer to you but i just noticed that you, basically, used my argument to make yours. I mean, obviously, a player will not wait 30 secs to cast, in example, Icy Terrain to deal inmense damage. So, the trade-off is "faster cast times in exchange of damage" yet you want that... but not JUST that, you also want to CONTROL a mob with that very same power too which, imo, its a bad situation for everyone... like happened back on mod4, no one picking GFs, DCs, HRs, and all other classes but CWs and GWFs to run dungeons (A party which could self-heal, deal inmense damage and control mobs like madmen) . So, my question to you is why do you really think that the CW-class is "really handicapped"? Hope your answer has nothing to do which "fill 2 or more roles on 1 team" as happened before mod6... and, on which, sadly, we stand on almost that very same spot again...
Your responses are idiotic and dumbfounding. You've obviously never played a CW or you wouldn't make half of these unbiased comments. You state that our "role" is CC, when CC is dead. So if they gave CWs back the CC they had from vanilla-Mod 3, you wouldn't HAMSTER? If our Arcane Singularity, Shard of the Endless Avalanche and Steal Time went back to having no target limits? Face is, CC 'is' dead, as I said. That leaves only the "role" of DPS. Since there are only tanks/healers/DPS in this game now, you can't cherry-pick what one class gets and the others don't. Until they fix CC, CW should have an equal shot at highest DPS. And there's nothing you can say that would make it otherwise. They have a CC tree, which is dead. They have a buff tree, from which the DPS is dead. And they have a pure DPS tree, which is pretty weak right now. The fact that CWs have a pure DPS Paragon path completely nullifies everything you've said and you're just a relic of the past that still hasn't been un-butthurt by the few moments CWs were actually viable.
i will make a simple question how the buffer tree is dead dps when it has the phantasmal destruction feature which is almost 100% uptime on critical builds? you cant ignore that 15 % severity. hint : i didnt take the chilling advantage since i dont use chilling presence because mof has more options than the spellstorm mage.
Seriously, fabricant, who cares about the damage numbers in your super high geared, buffed to the max, level 20 sh boons groups. You can't balance the game around that.
even at low levels i dont care so much about the damage otherwise i will look like a fool like some people. what i mean ? gwf use sprint to kill the monsters as fast he can since he can arrive faster than anyone hit faster than anyone wizards get confused that gwf is x50 their damage ofcourse if they run and cast wheel of elements fire :P or the wizard use all dodges to arrive before the gwf hhahah i laugh with those situations. A friend gwf told me i run front to be the paingiver ok i said we have fun so do it you didnt even need to ask me. AT the end of the dungeon maybe he will get and worse loot than me so i dont lose something being the 2nd
who cares about the damage numbers in your super high geared, buffed to the max, level 20 sh boons groups. You can't balance the game around that.
Correct. That's the point. GoH nerfs, OPs nerfs, elol set nerfs are manageable by super+++ and/or experienced players. In my case I don't care less about GoH (I'm a 3.8k DC), I've already tested alternatives that work very well. These changes hit hard++ low IL toons and players with low experience. At the end of this week, the changes will go live regardless what we're discussing here. Two minutes later, the mainstreams of this forum will be: "Castel Never too hard" "Cragmire is impossible" "Mobs one-shot me again" "XYZ DPS GF Build by Donald Duck" "GWF useless class, please fix it" ...and so on.
Imho and related to the above, the OP has created a new generation of players who don't know what "dodge a red area" means. I expect that the incoming changes will increase the gap betweel BiS players and the so called "majority" known as pugs, even if you balance the game between the classes. This has to do with "scalabity", never really addressed by this game as the underlying business model doesn't allow it. Want to do CN? Spend money^4, go BiS and you're done.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
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ichimaruginxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 230Arc User
Imho and related to the above, the OP has created a new generation of players who don't know what "dodge a red area" means.
True. So freakingly, true. Which is why they are complaining about having a GF in CN atm, while exped players (BiS or not) will not be asking ONLY for bubble for CN since ITF is one of the best buff you can get in game. Bubble has is pro and cons, personally it's sometimes really a life saver but seeing people just dpsing the boss while standing in the toxic ball is just... no comment.
Hopefully this will be a wake up call for RED = BAD, dearly bought, but one regardless.
I suppose the real problem is this: each player does some subset of {solo PVE, group PVE, PVP} x {play for 'skill', play for story, play for gear, play for ego}. There are 12 distinct targets in that cross-product, and it ignores open-world vs. dungeon/skirmish/trial/etc.
In mod 3/4 there were many sets of gear that let each person tailor what they wanted (a few pieces from each dungeon). Now, each campaign has a single set of gear. So there are at least 12 opinions on what that gear should do. For example, the Dragonflight CW gear is light on power and crit, but heavy on recovery...for god knows what reason, but presumably there's a way they think end-game CWs should play. The downside to having lots of gear-choices is that HAMSTER like me will min-max them into crazy corner-cases, because that is part of the fun of D&D.
When it comes down to it, so much of the prior discussion is about "are the classes good enough?", but sadly, everyone is impatient, so "good enough" is not good enough. People want "best/optimal/fastest", so there's going to be arguing every time there is a change to what is considered 'best'. Just wait a mod or two, and there will be a new race that will be OP and you can buy a race-reroll token and enjoy the power again for a few months...or some other 'oversight' will give your class some crazy piece of equipment.
Seriously, fabricant, who cares about the damage numbers in your super high geared, buffed to the max, level 20 sh boons groups. You can't balance the game around that.
And this shows, how much you understand about the game mechanics. Zero. I dont know, if even one of his group is BIS. Even if there is a BIS player, it is not needed.
The high dmg is the result of a combination of buffs, debuffs and dmg, not BIS gear. There is (or should be) a balance in group utility. High buffs/ debuffs but lower dmg, DC/ GF/ OP, or high dmg and no significant buffs/debuffs (I am talking about group benefit, not personal buffs), SW/ GWF. Furthermore there are HR, TR and CW with mediocre dmg and some buff/ debuff/ CC abilities.
With the nerf or fix or however you want to call it and the other changes, this balance is changed. DC keeps his buff/ debuff and most of his dmg. GF keeps his buff/debuff and gets a dmg boost. GWF loses more dmg, than SW. CW loses more dmg, than HR and TR. OP loses group utility in spades.
The fabricant and many other player, me included, dont give a rats HAMSTER about paingiver, but about class balance. This changes have a significant impact to class balance, resulting in a much higher 'group value' for SW, DC and GF, compared to any other class. Without any other changes the best group combination will be GF, DC, SW and the rest. The rest is so weak, compared to the other classes, that it mght be better, to invite another SW, GF or DC before any other class. Thats the problem.
BTW, live with it and wait for further changes is no argument. Either a change is good or it is bad. Combined with other changes, the nerf would be good. As it is, it is bad, imo.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Seriously, fabricant, who cares about the damage numbers in your super high geared, buffed to the max, level 20 sh boons groups. You can't balance the game around that.
And this shows, how much you understand about the game mechanics. Zero. I dont know, if even one of his group is BIS. Even if there is a BIS player, it is not needed.
The high dmg is the result of a combination of buffs, debuffs and dmg, not BIS gear. There is (or should be) a balance in group utility. High buffs/ debuffs but lower dmg, DC/ GF/ OP, or high dmg and no significant buffs/debuffs (I am talking about group benefit, not personal buffs), SW/ GWF. Furthermore there are HR, TR and CW with mediocre dmg and some buff/ debuff/ CC abilities.
With the nerf or fix or however you want to call it and the other changes, this balance is changed. DC keeps his buff/ debuff and most of his dmg. GF keeps his buff/debuff and gets a dmg boost. GWF loses more dmg, than SW. CW loses more dmg, than HR and TR. OP loses group utility in spades.
The fabricant and many other player, me included, dont give a rats HAMSTER about paingiver, but about class balance. This changes have a significant impact to class balance, resulting in a much higher 'group value' for SW, DC and GF, compared to any other class. Without any other changes the best group combination will be GF, DC, SW and the rest. The rest is so weak, compared to the other classes, that it mght be better, to invite another SW, GF or DC before any other class. Thats the problem.
BTW, live with it and wait for further changes is no argument. Either a change is good or it is bad. Combined with other changes, the nerf would be good. As it is, it is bad, imo.
Agreed, at the moment, the classes are roughly balanced in PVE, every class has a role that it excels at and it is either better at other classes at doing, or equal to other classes at doing.
Rankings for Buff/debuff: 1) DC/GF 2) CW 3) OP 4) HR 5) TR 6) SW 7) GWF
Rankings for DPS: 1) GWF 2) SW (better than GWF for single target) 3) HR 4) CW/DC/GF/TR 5) OP
Rankings for healing: 1) OP 2) SW 3) DC 4) CW 5) GWF/TR/HR/GF
Rankings for damage mitigation: 1) OP 2) GF 3) DC (best for groups larger than 5) 4) HR 5) GWF/CW/TR/SW
The only class that is arguably slacking here is the tr, but they are beastly in pvp (from what I hear).
How will classes perform post this change? (I am not changing the rankings for anything that remain constant)
Rankings for DPS: 1) SW 2) GF 3) HR 4) GWF 5) DC 6) TR 7) CW 8) OP
Rankings for damage mitigation: 1) GF 2) DC 3) OP 4) HR 5) GWF/CW/TR/SW
Where as now, classes like CW and TR get shafted for no particular reason, the OP gets a nerf which is justified and DP is still OP (regardless of what any paladin tells you, the skill should be completely redesigned tbh.) Before, the classes were in a much more balanced state in terms of Relative Value, although they did too much damage due to the lostmauth set, the over all balance was better. With the nerfing of the elol set, classes should be buffed/adjusted to retain the same relative value as before, as it was a better position than the 1 we currently have.
This changes have a significant impact to class balance, resulting in a much higher 'group value' for SW, DC and GF, compared to any other class. Without any other changes the best group combination will be GF, DC, SW and the rest. The rest is so weak, compared to the other classes, that it mght be better, to invite another SW, GF or DC before any other class. Thats the problem.
Combined with other changes, the nerf would be good. As it is, it is bad, imo.
^^ This 10x.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited April 2016
Double OP does jack squat for a SW. But make it a GF/DC and it turns into a monster.
Really balanced and fair when a class relies on % damage buffs to deal DPS. Seriously this kind of BS is why the SW is in desperate need of a complete overhaul.
Double OP does jack squat for a SW. But make it a GF/DC and it turns into a monster.
Really balanced and fair when a class relies on % damage buffs to deal DPS. Seriously this kind of BS is why the SW is in desperate need of a complete overhaul.
You do realize that every DPS class will benefit more from GF+DC than OP+OP?
The classes are roughly balanced? And you most certainly can't know how the balance will look like 2 weeks from now when people have settled in with the changes. You are just making up numbers and rankings. So you say it's balanced with: OP making everyone invincible; DC making dailies usable every few seconds; SW dealing insane damage because the soul puppet gets double/triple buffed; lostmauth set increasing GWF, TR and CW damage by 50%; companions with rank 12 bondings giving 300% stats to players, old set bonuses with percentage buffs/debuffs that were not redesigned for level 70 content. In other words the game is all about exploiting design f-ups and bugs. And it's not even true, in normal groups GWFs just run away with the damage. In solo questing Warlocks regularly run against a wall because it just can't be done. Right now the game is broken, and there will be further changes coming, but I don't think it was bad to give us the most bitter pill first. Still, that's no reason to put epitaphs in our forum signatures.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Double OP does jack squat for a SW. But make it a GF/DC and it turns into a monster.
Really balanced and fair when a class relies on % damage buffs to deal DPS. Seriously this kind of BS is why the SW is in desperate need of a complete overhaul.
You do realize that every DPS class will benefit more from GF+DC than OP+OP?
That's the entire damn problem. The DC and GF provide more damage buffs and mitigation than the OP.
Let me resay that. The OP does a worst job at reducing the party's incoming damage, and provides them with less damage buffs. That is not fair. That is not balance.
Double OP does jack squat for a SW. But make it a GF/DC and it turns into a monster.
Really balanced and fair when a class relies on % damage buffs to deal DPS. Seriously this kind of BS is why the SW is in desperate need of a complete overhaul.
You do realize that every DPS class will benefit more from GF+DC than OP+OP?
That's the entire damn problem. The DC and GF provide more damage buffs and mitigation than the OP.
Let me resay that. The OP does a worst job at reducing the party's incoming damage, and provides them with less damage buffs. That is not fair. That is not balance.
Yes, it was balanced, somehow. True, the OP does not provide the same buffs as a DC or a GF. In a decent group, OP is not the fist choice, BUT if you run with ppl who cant play very well, who dont have good gear and an 'exotic' build and skill rotation, the OP is the big equilizer. Sure, they will need 10 times longer, than a propper buff/ debuff/ dmg combo, but they can clear CN.
OP was THE class to carry ppl in dungeons. GF/ rightous DC the combination for speedruns. With the OP nerf, there will be a lot of players, that will struggle with dungeons, they cleared before. Adding to that the dmg nerf from LM 'fix', the majority will struggle even more.
BTW, the dungeons are designed to be cleared by the majority of players. There is no real challenging end content in this game. How is it broken, if a few players outgear, outperform or outsmart 90% of the community and burn 'endcontent' in seconds, when said endcontent is designed for ppl with 2.5k IL?
In other games you had to coordinate all players and skills in TS, to beat endcontent. Here ppl think that you are a weirdo, when you ask the other DC for his specs and rotation, to avoid not stacking buffs (true story, thing is, the other DC did not use ONE buff/ debuff skill for the bossfight, so problem solved).
Comments
@pando83 I don't care about rolls etc or your perceived notions of how hard a class should hit, but when my wizard is hitting for less than a dps specced DC or a DPS specced GF (which are gasp support classes) with his DPS spec, there is something WRONG with his damage, not his control, his DAMAGE. Control is another issue entirely. Btw, look forward to dps specced GFs hitting harder than your dps specced GWF with the lolset nerf, because I expect it to happen with these GF buffs.
Must say that all three toons had 25-30% dmg from LM set (while soloing). Now after nerf, GWF achieved 4-5% dmg only, CW and TR a bit more, approx. 10%. While all of them are dps specced and about 2.6-2.7k IL, a 25% loss when playing GWF is noticeable, I mean, without bubble and quite a big loss in GWFs dps, which supposed to be a "primary" striker... well, just read armadeonx post above.
Don't take me wrong and as I said before, an "adjustment" to LM dmg was necessary. But again, make nerfs doable.
the set should do weapon damage on crits, and now is doing weapon damage on crits. if cryptic devs actually did all their work properly the first time nothing of this would be happening. AND of course that's not going to happen because these "slips" create openings that they know people will jump and pay to use...
So to everyone complaining about it, you jumped in the damage boost wagon, used it (if you are smart, profited from it) and now it is fixed. deal with it.
when cryptic closes a door they crank open a window, it is good for their busines... just wait for new sets, maybe that orcus one.
Prices of Orcus set are sky rocking now .. so are you fixing the problem ? nope you are just replacing it.
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm
Dragonbreath Sorcerer
I didn't even mention metamagic and all the illusionist ways of destroying things once you hit the max level.
There is a reason why Wizards in most RPGs are considered to be a sort of a NUKE factor, dealing highest super-damage with a slower casting.
However, here, everyone have their nukes if utilized good. I see that you don't play as a Wizard and as such your opinion is completely biased because you don't know just how much handicap is placed on the Wizard classes in general and to what extent we must prepare our rotations, timing and utilization in order to be powerful and pleasant for the entire party. It is, easily, the highest amount of preparation and skill required in Neverwinter. So this means that if we miss, even for 1 second, we LOSE massively. In a sense it's also a stress-play since we know that we will never be able to have the highest single-target damage and the dungeons are turning into eLoL. Fewer enemies, fewer AoE damage.
CC was fixed to an extent, all bosses and all elites are CC immune. That's why there is no point in trying to go into a CC way.
CWs were CC oriented to an extent, back then you'd get a lot of Singularity + Shard combos and people yelling at Wizards "WHERE IS THE SINGULARITY > _ < ", "OMG NO SING" and stuff like that in dungeons.
Even when CWs were OP in MOD4/5 (but not as OP as broken SW TT was), CWs were still easy targets in PvP for instance. And CWs needed yet again to utilize the full rotation in order to be useful, and that rotation needed to it the limit of 6 sec, gathering of all enemies in the place and actually doing something viable.
Compared to TR's ability of holding the right click for super-high single target damage (yay bleed), GWF's ability to hold left-click and occasionally pressing [tab]qwerty123 whilst not caring for spells such as "come and get it" and doing STUPID super-high DAMAGE with Indomitable Battle Strike, HR's uber spamming of the powers until your hands drop down and finally SW's TT that's practically a Wizard's spell is NOWHERE near the level of fine-coated gameplay that the CWs have mastered over the years.
So, no, you're wrong in thinking that CW should not be a DPS class. And, yes, it makes no sense to have a Healer and Tank doing more damage than the Wizard class. Nowhere, anywhere in the world of MMORPG and D&D alone do you have such a blasphemy.
The only class which got nerfed beyond reason is CW, and this is majorily because people always had a knack for utilizing this class in the best possible ways.
But that's okay that you don't know because it actually takes high investment of reason and knowledge in order to understand why CW's are seriously handicapped. Whoever thinks otherwise simply doesn't care.
2. On the other note, Control-Wizard's casting can be interrupted. This is also a fact. Anything that pushes you, even slightly, will break the casting of a spell. Instant-spells are few and they're all single-target, which is why they're used in the PvP. All classes have instant-cast spells.
AoE-wise and PvE- wise any damage that you suffer whilst casting will break the casting itself, as well as the animation for it. In order to successfully do an AoE rotation you have to go close to the targets. Other classes usually do not suffer this sort of a deal. Casting at-wills as a Wizard usually always freezes you to a spot without the ability to move, at all, until the animation is done. The only class that suffers more with this is DC, but that's out of the point.
3. "Best feats of a CW" - lol
4. Your whole argument for the "fix" is completely anarchic and I doubt that even you knew what you wanted to imply with it.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
2. Nothing is wrong here aside from your ways of seeing things. Control Wizard spells can be interrupted which counter-arguments your analogy that CW spells can't be interrupted, plain and simple. The end on the argument that you totally lost. Do not repeat it anymore, please, since you won't do anything aside from talking to yourself.
3. Completely irrelevant and has nothing to do with anything that I, or anyone other in the topic, stated. In fact, you brought up something completely irrelevant to begin with, thus prolonging the unreasonable spam at this point without making any point. I hope that you understand what it takes to make a point since you obviously want to discuss something that's only happening in your head. Maybe I'm interrupting the discussion that you have with yourself?
4. Snip - Perhaps you should check when I joined before you embarrass yourself even more from going into completely stupid arguing that I've no interest into.
5. Thinking now, you're obviously thinking solely about the PvP playing which is one of the worst aspects of the Neverwinter Online to begin with, with complete lack of balance whatsoever. I never experienced such a silly PvP in any MMORPG that I've previously played. If you are talking from a PvP perspective then you're sillier than Looney Tunes because that's not what I'm arguing about, at all. In fact, it would be a complete waste of time and effort to even discuss PvP.
So, to sum it up, either produce a valid counter-argument to my statements or simply don't bother me with what you perceive the discussion is. This is tedious for me to do and explain why you fail to even make a discussion.
2. Icy Terrain power :
- Icy Terrain does the least damage out of all the CW spells.
- It is, in fact, the weakest damaging spell for a control wizard.
- Just recently happened to make a bug to me, not applying the necessary Chill stacks nor damage, at all. I don't have 100k AD to waste each time something like this happen, and trust me it happens more than you'd imagine.
- The power alone is reportedly bugged because it's doing the single-target damage instead of the area of effect damage. Anyone who uses ACT can confirm this by applying Focused Wizardry feat to increase it's outgoing damage.
- People tend to use a lot of Control-Based powers when Icy Terrain is active on-ground. Powers such as Devoted Cleric's Sunburst. One Sunburst can effectively break the entire rotation for a Control Wizard. GWF's power Frontline Surge does the same thing. GF can do the same. OP can do the same. With all of that said, the only thing that can effectively return the mobs to the Icy Terrain's spot would the the Control Wizard who's using the Master of Flame specialization and the Daily power Furious Immolation that can gather up to 8 mobs who are of regular size. This effectively prevents the Wizard to cast the Oppressive Force because by the time CW gets a chance, DC, GWF, GF or OP will scatter them around like paper. So you have to type to people to "please don't scatter mobs around, keep them on the Icy Terrain, it will be faster, thank you". As trolly as people can get, this produces even more Sunburst, Frontline Surge and whatnot. Even when the targets are frozen, they still get pushed away. Keep in mind that certain mobs will not get frozen no matter what, and that alone is already 50% less damage for the current meta CW. Only the people who know how to play the Wizard understand how important it is to keep the mobs at Icy Terrain level. This can be fixed by adding more to the Icy Veins options in one of the paragon trees which effectively reduces the recovery because there will be no Spell Twisting feat.
- Singularity Daily is not of much help and is at least 500% worse than it's counterpart Furious Immolation.
- Recovery on it's own is a terrible stat in the current set of events.
- Elite mobs effectively are 25% more immune to everything and especially the CC. Only recently in MOD9 did the monsters get some lesser CC manifestation. So unless you run as Oppressor you can't really freeze the monsters for the longer period of times.
- Entangling Force works in PvP on players for the most time, but you can't use it on the bosses, you can't use it on the elites and on top of that you can't use it to do some amazing damage. The spell itself is simply not that potent to be used in the PvE to begin with, unless it's on the lower levels or for the utilization of the Steal Time spell for the benefit of the Arcane Stacks (one of the Renegade Feats for which you need to have 5 enemies and Entangling Force on Spell Mastery).
When we talk about the Control Wizards, the real talk is about how good the various powers can work in synergy, one with another, whilst also getting the benefit from the Feature spells. When one of those things are not met, the Wizard can't simply say "Ok, no biggy" because CW losses a huge portion of damage dealt, AP gain and effective combat itself, resulting the next encounter fight to start half-assed no matter how you look at it.
Now, why are the Control Wizards underpowered?
First of all, CC got reduced back in the days because of the PvP clients. This reflected to the poor play in the dungeons, and no damage.
Then the damage buff came as a compensation.
Then the CWs did crazy damage, but not without completely utilizing every little single aspect of the build. You needed to play 100% in order to get all that CW damage. And it was good since it didn't feel like you're doing nothing.
Second of all, Damage got reduced drastically because of the StormSpell nerf.
Then the EotS nerf.
Then the LM came into the play.
Third of all, LM set got fixed in the meantime, thus the CWs lost a huge chunk of damage. This is why some of the CWs are going to leave the game.
Now, you can play CW as a DPS, CC, BUFF or a JoaT *Jack of all trades* in a sense. This means that CWs don't excel in anything in particular, thus making their entire play irrelevant for anything but the party buffs. This is why a rework is much needed.
What doesn't feel correct is doing all sorts of crazy rotations (that CW's usually do better than any other class), and still be below average whilst the person holding the left-click and smoking a cigarette is constantly topping you for 3-4-5 x in everything. OFC you wouldn't want to play as a CW anymore, you'd probably switch to the next best choice which would be either a SW or GWF.
Unfortunately, what regulates this game is not the PVE content but rather the outcries from the nasty PVP enthusiasts who are de facto investing more money for the sake of having the best possible equipment.
I was amazingly glad when most of them left the game back when MOD6 kicked in. I knew a lot of people who invested around 2000$ back then in their equipment, and in an instant, it practically became obsolete. Served them right for crying on the forums about nerfing Wizards.
So, I leave you at that because frankly at this point you're just boring and it's evident, to a fault, that you have no idea how it is for a CW to squeeze out the dps, especially after so many nerfs which didn't really balance anything for HAMSTER.
I did a bit more testing today, with longer rotations, to get a more accurate picture of what was happening, but percentages only changed by maybe 1%, so I wont post anything new about my TR or CW. What I will post, however, is my testing on GWF.
First, on live: lostmauth damage ranges from 3729 to 23,997
and on preview: lostmauth damage ranges from 1708 to 2470
I would appreciate if other GWF players could go through and test this as well, because this seems to confirm something that I have personally long believed.
Lostmauth does something like 30% of the damage for both CW and GWF (exact values vary, but its close enough), but the reason it does 30% is different for each class.
For the GWF, as with most things, crazy self+party buffs can make lostmauth hit for insane quantities, (my 2k gwf had it hit for 24k, obviously not weapon damage), so, GWF's get a few, very hard hits out of lostmauth, and these hard hits make up about 30% of their damage. I have seen ACT logs of GWF's getting lostmauth hits for over 100k.
The CW, on the other hand, uses a lot of smaller DOT's to proc lostmauth, and never gets the same extent, in my personal testing, I think the highest lostmauth hit I've seen in 10k on a CW. But, CW's proc lostmauth so often, that it still makes up a significant portion of their damage. i.e. CW gets many more smaller hits than GWF, which means, after this nerf, CW will still benefit from lostmauth more than the GWF will.
One thing I would really like to know is how this manages to keep in a party setting. Will the de/buffs being thrown around nullify this? or not?
So, to all the people calling the death of the CW (*cough* @thefabricant *cough*), what do you think? I've gotta say, I really don't think this change hurts the CW as much as some people are saying. I don't think it will be very hard for us to adapt.
@flehstiffer when running with a buff party I lost 31% of my dps on preview in comparison to live, same party, using dragon heralds as a test.
what i mean ? gwf use sprint to kill the monsters as fast he can since he can arrive faster than anyone hit faster than anyone wizards get confused that gwf is x50 their damage ofcourse if they run and cast wheel of elements fire :P or the wizard use all dodges to arrive before the gwf hhahah i laugh with those situations.
A friend gwf told me i run front to be the paingiver ok i said we have fun so do it you didnt even need to ask me. AT the end of the dungeon maybe he will get and worse loot than me so i dont lose something being the 2nd
GoH nerfs, OPs nerfs, elol set nerfs are manageable by super+++ and/or experienced players. In my case I don't care less about GoH (I'm a 3.8k DC), I've already tested alternatives that work very well.
These changes hit hard++ low IL toons and players with low experience.
At the end of this week, the changes will go live regardless what we're discussing here. Two minutes later, the mainstreams of this forum will be:
"Castel Never too hard"
"Cragmire is impossible"
"Mobs one-shot me again"
"XYZ DPS GF Build by Donald Duck"
"GWF useless class, please fix it"
...and so on.
Imho and related to the above, the OP has created a new generation of players who don't know what "dodge a red area" means. I expect that the incoming changes will increase the gap betweel BiS players and the so called "majority" known as pugs, even if you balance the game between the classes.
This has to do with "scalabity", never really addressed by this game as the underlying business model doesn't allow it. Want to do CN? Spend money^4, go BiS and you're done.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Hopefully this will be a wake up call for RED = BAD, dearly bought, but one regardless.
Join Now! - Infernal Paragons , The Infernal Alliance
In mod 3/4 there were many sets of gear that let each person tailor what they wanted (a few pieces from each dungeon). Now, each campaign has a single set of gear. So there are at least 12 opinions on what that gear should do. For example, the Dragonflight CW gear is light on power and crit, but heavy on recovery...for god knows what reason, but presumably there's a way they think end-game CWs should play. The downside to having lots of gear-choices is that HAMSTER like me will min-max them into crazy corner-cases, because that is part of the fun of D&D.
When it comes down to it, so much of the prior discussion is about "are the classes good enough?", but sadly, everyone is impatient, so "good enough" is not good enough. People want "best/optimal/fastest", so there's going to be arguing every time there is a change to what is considered 'best'. Just wait a mod or two, and there will be a new race that will be OP and you can buy a race-reroll token and enjoy the power again for a few months...or some other 'oversight' will give your class some crazy piece of equipment.
The high dmg is the result of a combination of buffs, debuffs and dmg, not BIS gear. There is (or should be) a balance in group utility. High buffs/ debuffs but lower dmg, DC/ GF/ OP, or high dmg and no significant buffs/debuffs (I am talking about group benefit, not personal buffs), SW/ GWF. Furthermore there are HR, TR and CW with mediocre dmg and some buff/ debuff/ CC abilities.
With the nerf or fix or however you want to call it and the other changes, this balance is changed. DC keeps his buff/ debuff and most of his dmg. GF keeps his buff/debuff and gets a dmg boost. GWF loses more dmg, than SW. CW loses more dmg, than HR and TR. OP loses group utility in spades.
The fabricant and many other player, me included, dont give a rats HAMSTER about paingiver, but about class balance. This changes have a significant impact to class balance, resulting in a much higher 'group value' for SW, DC and GF, compared to any other class. Without any other changes the best group combination will be GF, DC, SW and the rest. The rest is so weak, compared to the other classes, that it mght be better, to invite another SW, GF or DC before any other class. Thats the problem.
BTW, live with it and wait for further changes is no argument. Either a change is good or it is bad. Combined with other changes, the nerf would be good. As it is, it is bad, imo.
Rankings for Buff/debuff:
1) DC/GF
2) CW
3) OP
4) HR
5) TR
6) SW
7) GWF
Rankings for DPS:
1) GWF
2) SW (better than GWF for single target)
3) HR
4) CW/DC/GF/TR
5) OP
Rankings for healing:
1) OP
2) SW
3) DC
4) CW
5) GWF/TR/HR/GF
Rankings for damage mitigation:
1) OP
2) GF
3) DC (best for groups larger than 5)
4) HR
5) GWF/CW/TR/SW
The only class that is arguably slacking here is the tr, but they are beastly in pvp (from what I hear).
How will classes perform post this change? (I am not changing the rankings for anything that remain constant)
Rankings for DPS:
1) SW
2) GF
3) HR
4) GWF
5) DC
6) TR
7) CW
8) OP
Rankings for damage mitigation:
1) GF
2) DC
3) OP
4) HR
5) GWF/CW/TR/SW
Where as now, classes like CW and TR get shafted for no particular reason, the OP gets a nerf which is justified and DP is still OP (regardless of what any paladin tells you, the skill should be completely redesigned tbh.) Before, the classes were in a much more balanced state in terms of Relative Value, although they did too much damage due to the lostmauth set, the over all balance was better. With the nerfing of the elol set, classes should be buffed/adjusted to retain the same relative value as before, as it was a better position than the 1 we currently have.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Really balanced and fair when a class relies on % damage buffs to deal DPS. Seriously this kind of BS is why the SW is in desperate need of a complete overhaul.
Mod 10:
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Killing Flames deals 16636893 (1009292) Fire Damage to Ethraniev Marrowslake.
Mod 9:
[Combat (Self)] Your Murderous Flames deals 376274433 (18876929) Fire Damage to Red Tiamat Head.
So you say it's balanced with: OP making everyone invincible; DC making dailies usable every few seconds; SW dealing insane damage because the soul puppet gets double/triple buffed; lostmauth set increasing GWF, TR and CW damage by 50%; companions with rank 12 bondings giving 300% stats to players, old set bonuses with percentage buffs/debuffs that were not redesigned for level 70 content. In other words the game is all about exploiting design f-ups and bugs.
And it's not even true, in normal groups GWFs just run away with the damage. In solo questing Warlocks regularly run against a wall because it just can't be done.
Right now the game is broken, and there will be further changes coming, but I don't think it was bad to give us the most bitter pill first. Still, that's no reason to put epitaphs in our forum signatures.
Let me resay that. The OP does a worst job at reducing the party's incoming damage, and provides them with less damage buffs. That is not fair. That is not balance.
OP was THE class to carry ppl in dungeons. GF/ rightous DC the combination for speedruns. With the OP nerf, there will be a lot of players, that will struggle with dungeons, they cleared before. Adding to that the dmg nerf from LM 'fix', the majority will struggle even more.
BTW, the dungeons are designed to be cleared by the majority of players. There is no real challenging end content in this game. How is it broken, if a few players outgear, outperform or outsmart 90% of the community and burn 'endcontent' in seconds, when said endcontent is designed for ppl with 2.5k IL?
In other games you had to coordinate all players and skills in TS, to beat endcontent. Here ppl think that you are a weirdo, when you ask the other DC for his specs and rotation, to avoid not stacking buffs (true story, thing is, the other DC did not use ONE buff/ debuff skill for the bossfight, so problem solved).