Still pro PvPers just cry nerf everything when they don't understand nor analysis opponent class mechanics like in real PvP games.
It's all about power creep, they introduce TONS of +damage into the game, but everyone has the same HP/DR as they did at the beginning.
Nerfing damage all around will hurt PvE GFs, but the BiS will still wreck people. The encounters used in PvP are rarely used in PvE.
Bull charge by itself does less damage than disintergrate, IBS etc. But add in super high ArP (axe beak etc) vs a low DR opponent, and into the fray (buffs player's damage equal to their DR) = alot of damage. If an ally gets the buff, they will also do high damage too.
Anvil of Doom does a bit more damage than bull's charge AND it does Double Damage on targets -40% of their health, this is where most of the whine comes from. And it is justified. It's a crazy encounter, perfect for PvP.
Also SW needs a rework for PvP because cryptic clearly did not think about that aspect of the game when they designed the class, yet why do I never hear people ask for it? Getting BiS to brute force your way to victory is not a solution, because when another opponent with the same gear fights you, you will still be at a disadvantage.
ionvnegativoMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 119Arc User
edited February 2016
on GWFs there's a frame when you can deal them damage and is when unstoppable is down, so why GFs can almost perma-shield ??, by the time their guard is over they already have one rotated you.
Compensate the damage GFs can deal lowering the amount of damage they can block, at least for conquerors, deplete de guard on damage taken like it was before. Also the guard meter should start to regen once is totally empy, same as determination or stealth bar.
Compensate the damage GFs can deal lowering the amount of damage they can block, at least for conquerors, deplete de guard on damage taken like it was before. Also the guard meter should start to regen once is totally empy, same as determination or stealth bar.
R.I.P PvE GF...... The slowes class of all and you want a nerf for everything....
0
Options
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
on GWFs there's a frame when you can deal them damage and is when unstoppable is down, so why GFs can almost perma-shield ??, by the time their guard is over they already have one rotated you.
Compensate the damage GFs can deal lowering the amount of damage they can block, at least for conquerors, deplete de guard on damage taken like it was before. Also the guard meter should start to regen once is totally empy, same as determination or stealth bar.
about this when i go behind a great weapon fighter i cant stop him kill my teamate when he is in unstopable. but when i go behind the gf and did his bullcharge to my teamate i can push him entagling him whatever.
...which means you need two people. Against a good player the shield timing is impeccable and almost impossible to find an opening. Nowadays, unlike olden times there's also no hope in expecting the shield stamina to come down any time soon...
...and to make matters worse, auto target-lock (padlock) also ensures that any mistake he makes in controlling his facing is simply remedied automatically.
In order to CC a good GF, you would usually have to anticipate an incoming gap-closer attack, activate a CC breaker like ITC, Unstoppable or Oghma's to ignore the prone part and activate your attack simultaneously as it lands on you.
This of course, means you're at a much higher risk than the GF, whereas at the same time, the potentially expected reward is also much lower than the GF as well.
At this point, frankly speaking, I don't think there's anything to dispute the burst is too high. Yes, you could L2P and train yourself upto certain levels to try and rectify the situation. I've trained myself enough to anticipate the gap-closer and the immediate prone attack that follows, and evade both attacks sequentially with a class that has a sucky dodge like the HR... but this don't mean nothing because that evasive doesn't lead to my advantage in anyway, because the GF simply turns, faces me, and turtles up immediately until those two attacks are recharged.
Are any of you aware that the GF gapcloser actually has longer range than a HR's Marauder's Escape? More than 50' in range. 55' for lunging strike, 28' for bull charge. Holy krap.
What kind of a 'melee' does that? At least the GWF needs to spend stamina to run up to the position.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
0
Options
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
This is so easy, increase GF's At-Will damage but reduce the buff effects from various encounters/dailies. This way GF can still deal the same amount, if not MORE DPS, but their burst damage will be more controlled.
This is so easy, increase GF's At-Will damage but reduce the buff effects from various encounters/dailies. This way GF can still deal the same amount, if not MORE DPS, but their burst damage will be more controlled.
I think the same should go to TR's SE too.
TR's SE is supposed to deal high burst damage as that's Strikers' feature. Personally, I'm fine with SE as long as it doesn't one shot properly geared players.
But a Defender deals high burst damage like a Striker does? No. That shouldn't have happened.
This is so easy, increase GF's At-Will damage but reduce the buff effects from various encounters/dailies. This way GF can still deal the same amount, if not MORE DPS, but their burst damage will be more controlled.
I think the same should go to TR's SE too.
In principle it should be the same for all major melee classes.
(1) the average damage slightly lowered, and the potency of all sorts of damage buffs significantly lowered (2) should be given major systematic changes to support easier mode of fighting (3) encounters/skills should be re-evaluated and tweaked to support (2)
The most prime, excellent example in this case would be the non-burst type, Weaponmaster and/or Instigator type GWFs in PvP. Suffers from generally low damage, which is made even worse by the fact that the build/feats are extremely inefficient and useless in PvP (looks good on paper, high crit build seems to support an on-demand stun tactic that is also supported by cool utilitarian powers), as well as the main features also too difficult to really utilize in PvP (skills like WM's Strike at-will, looks good in theory, but slow to activate, systematically glitchy, self-roots, hence impossible to land steadily)
A lot of the problems the Instigators have, is partially due to the weak path itself, but also a reminder of how melee-unfriendly the system is. Every GF and GWF suffer the same problem. The only difference is that certain GF and GWF builds have an alternate way of fighting, which is exactly what people complain about, because in many cases they seem to be almost overcompensated.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This is so easy, increase GF's At-Will damage but reduce the buff effects from various encounters/dailies. This way GF can still deal the same amount, if not MORE DPS, but their burst damage will be more controlled.
I think the same should go to TR's SE too.
I knew someone would call for TR nerf. Always do
anyway if you nerf SE now without any other changes to TR, please just block them from entering dom. Because we sure as hell aren't killing anything with other skills. CoS piercing, forget about it. just tickles high end players.
In fact, I bet the only time a TR kills you now (or chance to) is by SE, right icy?
They need to do a big balancing pass. Including looking at damage vs tankiness of all classes. Right now I think GFs, GWFs are the crazy good in the damage vs tankiness category, something has to give. (does a GF ever lose stamina anymore?). SWs are only out of the limelight because just a few have figured out "that"build. OP....well no one here would disagree with what needs to be done. TRs, piercing damage needs to go, its not fun for the TR and good lord does it lead to tears on the forums. However damage needs to be increased dramatically including a way to get our resistance ignored up. HRs could use a little love from a dps perspective again plz no piercing. Im sure most CWs want a buff but from what I've seen they have a pretty good balance between tankiness and damage, depending on their rotation
oh yeah and lose the ambush and see stealth rings. BOTH not one or the other. I have a feeling this new ring is gonna make other classes feel the pain like the see stealth ring does for TRs
"we all love this game and want it to thrive"
0
Options
ionvnegativoMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 119Arc User
edited February 2016
SE must go, some trolls stack 30k power+shadowborn+FS, then boooommm 170k damage.
TR encounter damage is meh, what is the reason for example shadow strike damage is almost zero? why LB has 24 secs base cooldown? why some powers dont deal damage like ITC or bait and switch? coz they are utility powers? haha
long time ago when HP pool was low, TRs could burn anyone with at wills, but now, who dies this days for a 2k duelist flurry ticks or 5-10k gloaming cuts?.
Lol @ buffing gf at wills, given the class they are, how is that even a buff when they won't be able to hit you most of the time without getting their hp destroyed? The solution is not to buff their at wills, but to nerf their buffs slightly, but not by too much. You don't need to buff anything on gf for pvp even as compensation because the class is grossly overpowered because of their ability to turtle and then one rotation. Reducing damage slightly by means of either making buffs harder to maintain or reducing their effectiveness would bring the class in line with the others. You can buff their at wills but what's the point? Gf gonna walk up to you with shield down and start at willing you like a gwf? Lmao. I'm not a fan of nerfs without compensation but there is nothing about the gf that needs buffing in the current meta, even if you reduced their damage by 15% they'd still be one of the best classes and honestly that's all the class needs. There's a difference between broken mechanics and broken damage. GF, while block is somewhat an op mechanic in itself and contributes to how good the class is, the main issue is the ability they have to one rotation you while maintaining a difficult front to get around (hard target lock I'm looking at you as well). Reducing damage in pvp is enough to give other classes a chance to get around their defense which is what is not the case atm.
"make the shield block not immune to damage".Allready happens since mod3.Block reduces only 80% of damage.
"GFs should not be able to perma block".None GF can permablock with out using spesific encounters.If he uses ,then he cannot do damage.
"Buff GFs at wills".As kweassa said the moment GF hits with att wills is rooted.GFs att wills are useless against non disabled opponent.
"Buff their tankiness".Then you would complain again.Gfs are to tanky..... etc...
----------------------
The solution is: Rework Shield Wrath. Reduce ITF buff but only for pvp.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
As a side note ,if GFs would be nerfed are because the class in underpresented in high pvp guilds,and to NW population in general,comparing to GWFs/CWs. That's why all the nerf threads.
Some of the arguments used against GFs are laughable.
You talk about roles and stereotypes in an action MMO,roles that the game be default despises.If not,it would have put a hard cap to other classes to aquire defense and hp.So it is perfectly fine if someone builds a toon Tr with 45% deflect,30% DR and 110k hp,but if a GF speccs offensively then it is a crime.The "Striker" GWf runs with 30-35% Dr plus extra 30% while on unstoppable..and unstoppable is spamable. CW is fine to have base DR higher than a defender (10-12% plus 25% broken shield).GWFs...well...what to say now....no comment.
Another said a tree should never have tankiness and damage.What about Destroyer GWF?Extra 30% DR while on unstoppable?Plus temp HPs?And mega damage?And spammable?You got mega buffs in mod6,basically two former capstones in one.And yet you complain about GFs.Some talk about buffs.Isn't the self GWf buffs better than the GF? 40% extra damage by using an encounter that lasts 8 sec with an 8 sec ICD and three charges? lol.yea it demands skill.....
I hope GF community to stay strong and continue to play our class even after the cheesy forumers nerf it.
"GWF is overpowered but it demands high gear.So basically it is ok".Lol i laugh so hard every time i read this nonsense. GWFs require gear while the rest we run in rank5s and we roll the content. Every class requires gear to perform .I just say this cause a lot of nerf advocates are playing mainly GWF toons.Just for the record.
You can buff their at wills but what's the point? Gf gonna walk up to you with shield down and start at willing you like a gwf? Lmao. I'm not a fan of nerfs without compensation but there is nothing about the gf that needs buffing in the current meta, even if you reduced their damage by 15% they'd still be one of the best classes and honestly that's all the class needs.
EXACTLY. Hence, the 'unfriendliness towards melee mechanics' as I've mentioned. The game's basic combat system doesn't really agree with the realities of melee classes such as the GF/GWF (and to a lesser extent, to TRs as well), and it is far too easy to evade and kite melee attacks even at close ranges. When someone mentions 'melee', normally people should be imagining stuff like swordsmen coming into close quarters, trading blows, shield jabs, mixing it in, and what not... except as it is, its virtually impossible for melee classes to do that in PvP. H3ll, it's sometimes hard to do even in PvE, when the mobs move around. The time-on-target allowed for melee classes is ridiculously low in this game.
Hence, the way the game is setup, is that it overcompensates for these shortcomings by giving jaw-droppingly high damage to a select few powers that is relatively easy to land on the target. The GF probably won't have any opportunities to use most of his attacks, so in the few instances that it actually does land a few hits on the target (with a stupidly easy, simple and basic combo), the damage will be high enough to take people down in that one instance alone.
This, is the whole 'GF problem' in short (which is basically a GWF problem as well). Burst too high, therefore the TTK(time-to-kill) factor is also much too low. There isn't really a process of fighting involved against a good GF that is on par with yourself and as much geared. It just shoots out like a guided missile. Either you evade, or you get hit, and the fight ends.
GF, while block is somewhat an op mechanic in itself and contributes to how good the class is, the main issue is the ability they have to one rotation you while maintaining a difficult front to get around (hard target lock I'm looking at you as well). Reducing damage in pvp is enough to give other classes a chance to get around their defense which is what is not the case atm.
Which is why in essence, the entire 'way of fighting' for GFs (and for all melees) should be redesigned.
Theoretically speaking, simply reducing the damage to the current 'one-rotation' pattern, so that it's no more a 'one-rotation' but rather... three? four? five rotations? ... this would work. But the reality is that its not gonna stop people from complaining, because the way of fighting currently setup for GFs, is in essence the exact same thing as the permastealth of olden days.
Yes, believe it or not, the way the GF fights, and why so many people are ticked off by it, is that it holds a patternized approach to combat that is very similar to how permastealth TRs fight.
It holds a very strong mode of defense which is normally very difficult (or in cases nigh impossible) to get around/penetrate, and there isn't much of an outside factor that you can force upon the GF to drop it unless you have numbers advantage over it. Hence, your own attacks against the GF have a very high probability of being ineffective, and you are often left without an effective means to strike back, whereas the GF in that mode of defense is basically free to control the situation as he wills, so the initiative is always with the GF.
The only moment of vulnerability is when he drops those defenses willingly and shoots out with a series of gapclosing attacks and CCs to one-rotate you to kingdom come, and obviously, due to the relative difference in the amount of damage he can deal upon you, it is not likely anyone would attempt anything else than evade those attacks in earnest.
And of course, when the attack ends, he goes into the defensive again, hence, holds the initiative again.
Compare this to the TR:
"It holds a very strong mode of defense which is normally very difficult (or in cases nigh impossible) to get around/penetrate, and there isn't much of an outside factor that you can force upon the TR to drop it unless you have numbers advantage over it. Hence, your own attacks against the TR have a very high probability of being ineffective, and you are often left without an effective means to strike back, whereas the TR in that mode of stealthed defense is basically free to control the situation as he wills, so the initiative is always with the TR.
The only moment of vulnerability is when he drops those defenses willingly by popping out of stealth by using series of ranged attacks and CCs to beat upon you almost one-sidedly, and of course, SE your rearend to kingdom come, and obviously, due to the relative difference in the amount of damage he can deal upon you, it is not likely anyone would attempt anything else than evade those attacks in earnest.
And of course, when the attack ends, he goes into stealth again, hence, holds the initiative again."
See a pattern here? The point is, the very stylized mode of combat the GF uses is by itself an annoyance and a huge frustration factor to people. Regardless of the actual damage numbers, the simple truth is that people just don't like fighting like this. It sucks to approach and fight something that has no perceivable, immediate weaknesses, knowing that you can work your bum off to find a small opportunity to deal small damage, whereas the other guy with that 'invincible one pattern' simply needs to repeat his one pattern until you fail at dodging it, and then it just instantly ends you.
That's why people hate the TR, and that's why people hate the GF. Imagine a TR that lost its ability to use stealth, but gains perma-ITC that you can engage with a button, but only works against frontal attacks, just running around until periodically full-charging AP to spam SE all the time. That's what the GF is.
Yes, good players find ways to fight GFs, but I'm willing to bet most of the people who fight GFs would openly admit to the whole thing coming down on either; (a) the GF player being much lower in skill, or (b) poorly geared than yourself, or (c) makes an obvious mistake.
There isn't really a factor other classes can control or manipulate/exploit when they fight GFs, and almost always, someone fighting the GF is forced into a passive state of 'wait for him to make a mistake', rather than being able to actively do something -- because the basic fighting style of the GF as it is setup now isn't exactly 'lenient' enough for other classes to really mix it up into a real fight.
It doesn't matter whether you can beat the GF or not - its just thoroughly unenjoyable and sour experience, just like fighting the standard SE spamming TR wankers. That's why people hate fighting GFs.
----------------------------------
Lower the damage, change the basic implications of the melee system so that it is much, much easier and realistic to expect a GF to try a bit and latch on to the target like a hunting hound, and continuously use variety of attacks to deal a steady rate of damage and pressure the opponent to breaking point. Since it needs to use more attacks than current to deal damage, that implies its shield will be lowered a great deal more often to use it -- normalizing the risk:reward ratio for the class for other classes to have a fair chance to exploit.
When this happens, from this point all the rest of the problems simply solve itself.
A keen person might realize this is basically the EXACT SAME THING I've suggested for TRs in the past. Make it impossible to permastealth, have TRs comeout of stealth more often to more steadily and repeatedly attack, to be able to deal damage -- so the TR needs to make impromptu decisions and take risks during each moment of the fight, so it also exposes its own weaknesses in such prolonged engagements -- make it impossible for the TR to simply set itself up with a fail-proof, easy system of one-sided fight, that the TR can simply repeat mechanically and gain kills by periodically landing a mega-burst attack.
TL;DR:
1. basic fighting system setup for GF is too low risk for too much reward 2. need to make it much, much easier for GFs to hold longer time on target - easier to approach, debilitate, and pressure 3. at the expense of much, much lower damage 4. which implies the GF needs to close in and 'mix it up' more to be able to deal as much damage as it does currently 5. which also implies his shield would be down a lot more often, since he needs to attack more often 6. which, as a whole, would properly restore the class as a 'melee', in true melee-style fighting, rather than just being a pseudo-ranged guided missile.
Do this, and I gurantee you the quality of PvP experience goes up for both the GFs, and those who fight them, because it's going to be a helluva more fun fight than just playing the go#@!*($&! matador against a one-pattern bull.
Ole!
Post edited by kweassa on
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As lame as SE might be, anyone calling for a nerf to it, without upping TR at-will and encounter damage is full of it.
I play a WK because I think MI is a thoroughly boring, relatively brainless path. It doesn't mean I hate MI players or think the path requires no skill. I only hate the ones that think they are great playersite when they clearly are not. There are a TON of horribly bad, MI Sabs running around. Some of them are at or near BiS.
I understand why players choose MI and the path is no more cheap than the rest of the classes. Yes, MIs can have insane K/D, but that does not equate to being "good" at PvP.
As for the original topic , I generally agree that GF encounters need to be adjusted to disallow a single- rotation kill. Up their at-wills.
In order to save PvP, a tremendous effort would have to be put forth by Cryptic. Nothing short of hiring a dedicated PvP Development Lead with real power will save it. You can't plug this leaky boat. It needs a drydock and a hell of a lot of work until it is seaworthy again.
I wondering, just based on how development and content has slowed since mod 6, if it is realistic that they will do a major over haul of the system. I just don't think we can expect that. They did the one major balancing pass for mod 4/5 which seemed at the time to satisfy nobody.
Don't get me wrong, i do think they SHOULD do it, I just don't think they will.
I see a rather personal tone friend. Which makes me sad.I don't have anything personal with anyone and i enjoy a good debate.I also enjoy defending my class.(Which is surprisingly easy cause none brings logs or valid arguments ,except rage and generalizations)
The thing you said about legit...is a lie.I never talk in legit,very rarely i ll ask for a group for vt or mc.How you come to this conclusion?...I would discredit my self by publicly stating in a public numerous channel that i lie in the forums?Common.
I see that i made you angry cause i pointed out some facts.
I have nothing against the GWfs.But don't sing all day the song of "GF got buffs!! "!.You got buffs more numerous and essential to Gf buffs.And still you want GF nerfed,while none GFs asked for a GWF nerf.I just mentioned this and you went Berserk.
The thing you say all the time(as a community): "GWf needs gear to shine".You are saying it over a year and cause none disputes it,people tend to believe that holds some essense and value.While clearly not.It is a straw man argument cause all classes need gear to perform ,(except OP Prot perhaps) yet you use this as a last resort fake argument to distract people. And i honestly makes my day every time i read this. :)it is an argument good to be heard by other GWFs.The rest we laugh rolling on the floor.
(Multiscaling of stats is another issue that holds truth ,and i accept that,don't comfuse what i say)
As for the build you are mentioning it was always around ,nothing new.Now it will gain more popularity cause of bonding procs.' which bondings are problem in a wider sense for every class cause they multiply the prime desired stats of every build,be it DPS or other.(Not that it matter much ,the content is so easy that will make little difference.110% DPS increase or 240% DPS increase have the same efficiency when the given HP pool of mobs can be liquidated with 100% DPS in 2-3 seconds.)
That's why i said to half ITF in pvp.
--------------------------------
Sorry for my long post, and to summarize up:
I don't troll,i argue. ITf reduced effectiveness in pvp and Shield Wrath rework are what needed. I never said the thing you claim.Maybe you heared something else somewhere else,by someone else, perhaps?Nvm. Some GWFS ask for Gf nerfs(except one valiant GWf that stood to the crowd! \o/) when none Gf in the last two years ever asked for GWf nerf. (And i will never do)
Kinda of unfair and bellow the waist hit,if you ask me.Nvm
..endless rant with no data ,just generalizations...
Endless rant ,no data no logs,poor debating. Because you say something it must be correct ,right?Seems you have a very high esteem of yourself.
Please post the handles of the people that remember me talking in legit and saying that ,i don't know what.You claimed something ,proved it if you can.If you cannot admit that you were wrong.Plain and simple.You hold zero credibility.I talked in legit?And people remember eh?Post their handles now please and invite them to write in public what i have said.
You disproved nothing.You just say you disproved.You say it to your self,ehm it must be the truth eh? lol.
GWF damage is way off charts all know that except GWFs.
As about the "gear -high-to shine GWFs-so probably all fine- i laughed again.:) All classes need high gear in order to perfect they setup and custom fit their rotations to their build for maximum effect.Not just yours.But it is yours that soloes T2(in resonable time).Show a GF soloing epic T2s.
To the others: One person asking for Gf nerfs is the person debating for a whole mod and defending mod5 TRs saying that Trs were perfectly fine.He just wants his class to reign supreme and his opponents nerfed.Nothing more nothing less. He asks not for damage reduction but also shield drop time.Default block time is 8 secs by the way.
Another the only thing that found, is Minimis videos of smashing undergeared people. I can find 10+ videos of TRs trolling people or HRs ,will that prove something?it was an HR that beat one of the best TRs 5-0 .So HRs are fine?Or they do need some work?I believe the second ,but by his logic the video will disprove that.
-------------------------
To dear Devs that reading this thread: As you see there are no numbers posted ,just nerf requests based on impressions,poor class understanding and vitriolic hatred. Please move on,to mod9 release and ignore these forumers.They lack credibility.Thanks \o/ \o/ \o/
Comments
It's all about power creep, they introduce TONS of +damage into the game, but everyone has the same HP/DR as they did at the beginning.
Nerfing damage all around will hurt PvE GFs, but the BiS will still wreck people. The encounters used in PvP are rarely used in PvE.
Bull charge by itself does less damage than disintergrate, IBS etc. But add in super high ArP (axe beak etc) vs a low DR opponent, and into the fray (buffs player's damage equal to their DR) = alot of damage. If an ally gets the buff, they will also do high damage too.
Anvil of Doom does a bit more damage than bull's charge AND it does Double Damage on targets -40% of their health, this is where most of the whine comes from. And it is justified. It's a crazy encounter, perfect for PvP.
Also SW needs a rework for PvP because cryptic clearly did not think about that aspect of the game when they designed the class, yet why do I never hear people ask for it? Getting BiS to brute force your way to victory is not a solution, because when another opponent with the same gear fights you, you will still be at a disadvantage.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Compensate the damage GFs can deal lowering the amount of damage they can block, at least for conquerors, deplete de guard on damage taken like it was before. Also the guard meter should start to regen once is totally empy, same as determination or stealth bar.
The slowes class of all and you want a nerf for everything....
...and to make matters worse, auto target-lock (padlock) also ensures that any mistake he makes in controlling his facing is simply remedied automatically.
In order to CC a good GF, you would usually have to anticipate an incoming gap-closer attack, activate a CC breaker like ITC, Unstoppable or Oghma's to ignore the prone part and activate your attack simultaneously as it lands on you.
This of course, means you're at a much higher risk than the GF, whereas at the same time, the potentially expected reward is also much lower than the GF as well.
At this point, frankly speaking, I don't think there's anything to dispute the burst is too high. Yes, you could L2P and train yourself upto certain levels to try and rectify the situation. I've trained myself enough to anticipate the gap-closer and the immediate prone attack that follows, and evade both attacks sequentially with a class that has a sucky dodge like the HR... but this don't mean nothing because that evasive doesn't lead to my advantage in anyway, because the GF simply turns, faces me, and turtles up immediately until those two attacks are recharged.
Are any of you aware that the GF gapcloser actually has longer range than a HR's Marauder's Escape? More than 50' in range. 55' for lunging strike, 28' for bull charge. Holy krap.
What kind of a 'melee' does that? At least the GWF needs to spend stamina to run up to the position.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This way GF can still deal the same amount, if not MORE DPS, but their burst damage will be more controlled.
I think the same should go to TR's SE too.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
But a Defender deals high burst damage like a Striker does? No. That shouldn't have happened.
(1) the average damage slightly lowered, and the potency of all sorts of damage buffs significantly lowered
(2) should be given major systematic changes to support easier mode of fighting
(3) encounters/skills should be re-evaluated and tweaked to support (2)
The most prime, excellent example in this case would be the non-burst type, Weaponmaster and/or Instigator type GWFs in PvP. Suffers from generally low damage, which is made even worse by the fact that the build/feats are extremely inefficient and useless in PvP (looks good on paper, high crit build seems to support an on-demand stun tactic that is also supported by cool utilitarian powers), as well as the main features also too difficult to really utilize in PvP (skills like WM's Strike at-will, looks good in theory, but slow to activate, systematically glitchy, self-roots, hence impossible to land steadily)
A lot of the problems the Instigators have, is partially due to the weak path itself, but also a reminder of how melee-unfriendly the system is. Every GF and GWF suffer the same problem. The only difference is that certain GF and GWF builds have an alternate way of fighting, which is exactly what people complain about, because in many cases they seem to be almost overcompensated.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
anyway if you nerf SE now without any other changes to TR, please just block them from entering dom. Because we sure as hell aren't killing anything with other skills. CoS piercing, forget about it. just tickles high end players.
In fact, I bet the only time a TR kills you now (or chance to) is by SE, right icy?
They need to do a big balancing pass. Including looking at damage vs tankiness of all classes. Right now I think GFs, GWFs are the crazy good in the damage vs tankiness category, something has to give. (does a GF ever lose stamina anymore?). SWs are only out of the limelight because just a few have figured out "that"build. OP....well no one here would disagree with what needs to be done. TRs, piercing damage needs to go, its not fun for the TR and good lord does it lead to tears on the forums. However damage needs to be increased dramatically including a way to get our resistance ignored up. HRs could use a little love from a dps perspective again plz no piercing. Im sure most CWs want a buff but from what I've seen they have a pretty good balance between tankiness and damage, depending on their rotation
oh yeah and lose the ambush and see stealth rings. BOTH not one or the other. I have a feeling this new ring is gonna make other classes feel the pain like the see stealth ring does for TRs
TR encounter damage is meh,
what is the reason for example shadow strike damage is almost zero?
why LB has 24 secs base cooldown?
why some powers dont deal damage like ITC or bait and switch? coz they are utility powers? haha
long time ago when HP pool was low, TRs could burn anyone with at wills, but now, who dies this days for a 2k duelist flurry ticks or 5-10k gloaming cuts?.
CoS+SB+SS+ITC+SE/BB is boring.
C'est la vie.
"make the shield block not immune to damage".Allready happens since mod3.Block reduces only 80% of damage.
"GFs should not be able to perma block".None GF can permablock with out using spesific encounters.If he uses ,then he cannot do damage.
"Buff GFs at wills".As kweassa said the moment GF hits with att wills is rooted.GFs att wills are useless against non disabled opponent.
"Buff their tankiness".Then you would complain again.Gfs are to tanky..... etc...
----------------------
The solution is:
Rework Shield Wrath.
Reduce ITF buff but only for pvp.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
As a side note ,if GFs would be nerfed are because the class in underpresented in high pvp guilds,and to NW population in general,comparing to GWFs/CWs.
That's why all the nerf threads.
Some of the arguments used against GFs are laughable.
You talk about roles and stereotypes in an action MMO,roles that the game be default despises.If not,it would have put a hard cap to other classes to aquire defense and hp.So it is perfectly fine if someone builds a toon Tr with 45% deflect,30% DR and 110k hp,but if a GF speccs offensively then it is a crime.The "Striker" GWf runs with 30-35% Dr plus extra 30% while on unstoppable..and unstoppable is spamable.
CW is fine to have base DR higher than a defender (10-12% plus 25% broken shield).GWFs...well...what to say now....no comment.
Another said a tree should never have tankiness and damage.What about Destroyer GWF?Extra 30% DR while on unstoppable?Plus temp HPs?And mega damage?And spammable?You got mega buffs in mod6,basically two former capstones in one.And yet you complain about GFs.Some talk about buffs.Isn't the self GWf buffs better than the GF?
40% extra damage by using an encounter that lasts 8 sec with an 8 sec ICD and three charges? lol.yea it demands skill.....
I hope GF community to stay strong and continue to play our class even after the cheesy forumers nerf it.
"GWF is overpowered but it demands high gear.So basically it is ok".Lol i laugh so hard every time i read this nonsense.
GWFs require gear while the rest we run in rank5s and we roll the content.
Every class requires gear to perform .I just say this cause a lot of nerf advocates are playing mainly GWF toons.Just for the record.
Hence, the way the game is setup, is that it overcompensates for these shortcomings by giving jaw-droppingly high damage to a select few powers that is relatively easy to land on the target. The GF probably won't have any opportunities to use most of his attacks, so in the few instances that it actually does land a few hits on the target (with a stupidly easy, simple and basic combo), the damage will be high enough to take people down in that one instance alone.
This, is the whole 'GF problem' in short (which is basically a GWF problem as well). Burst too high, therefore the TTK(time-to-kill) factor is also much too low. There isn't really a process of fighting involved against a good GF that is on par with yourself and as much geared. It just shoots out like a guided missile. Either you evade, or you get hit, and the fight ends.
Which is why in essence, the entire 'way of fighting' for GFs (and for all melees) should be redesigned.
Theoretically speaking, simply reducing the damage to the current 'one-rotation' pattern, so that it's no more a 'one-rotation' but rather... three? four? five rotations? ... this would work. But the reality is that its not gonna stop people from complaining, because the way of fighting currently setup for GFs, is in essence the exact same thing as the permastealth of olden days.
Yes, believe it or not, the way the GF fights, and why so many people are ticked off by it, is that it holds a patternized approach to combat that is very similar to how permastealth TRs fight.
It holds a very strong mode of defense which is normally very difficult (or in cases nigh impossible) to get around/penetrate, and there isn't much of an outside factor that you can force upon the GF to drop it unless you have numbers advantage over it. Hence, your own attacks against the GF have a very high probability of being ineffective, and you are often left without an effective means to strike back, whereas the GF in that mode of defense is basically free to control the situation as he wills, so the initiative is always with the GF.
The only moment of vulnerability is when he drops those defenses willingly and shoots out with a series of gapclosing attacks and CCs to one-rotate you to kingdom come, and obviously, due to the relative difference in the amount of damage he can deal upon you, it is not likely anyone would attempt anything else than evade those attacks in earnest.
And of course, when the attack ends, he goes into the defensive again, hence, holds the initiative again.
Compare this to the TR:
"It holds a very strong mode of defense which is normally very difficult (or in cases nigh impossible) to get around/penetrate, and there isn't much of an outside factor that you can force upon the TR to drop it unless you have numbers advantage over it. Hence, your own attacks against the TR have a very high probability of being ineffective, and you are often left without an effective means to strike back, whereas the TR in that mode of stealthed defense is basically free to control the situation as he wills, so the initiative is always with the TR.
The only moment of vulnerability is when he drops those defenses willingly by popping out of stealth by using series of ranged attacks and CCs to beat upon you almost one-sidedly, and of course, SE your rearend to kingdom come, and obviously, due to the relative difference in the amount of damage he can deal upon you, it is not likely anyone would attempt anything else than evade those attacks in earnest.
And of course, when the attack ends, he goes into stealth again, hence, holds the initiative again."
See a pattern here? The point is, the very stylized mode of combat the GF uses is by itself an annoyance and a huge frustration factor to people. Regardless of the actual damage numbers, the simple truth is that people just don't like fighting like this. It sucks to approach and fight something that has no perceivable, immediate weaknesses, knowing that you can work your bum off to find a small opportunity to deal small damage, whereas the other guy with that 'invincible one pattern' simply needs to repeat his one pattern until you fail at dodging it, and then it just instantly ends you.
That's why people hate the TR, and that's why people hate the GF. Imagine a TR that lost its ability to use stealth, but gains perma-ITC that you can engage with a button, but only works against frontal attacks, just running around until periodically full-charging AP to spam SE all the time. That's what the GF is.
Yes, good players find ways to fight GFs, but I'm willing to bet most of the people who fight GFs would openly admit to the whole thing coming down on either; (a) the GF player being much lower in skill, or (b) poorly geared than yourself, or (c) makes an obvious mistake.
There isn't really a factor other classes can control or manipulate/exploit when they fight GFs, and almost always, someone fighting the GF is forced into a passive state of 'wait for him to make a mistake', rather than being able to actively do something -- because the basic fighting style of the GF as it is setup now isn't exactly 'lenient' enough for other classes to really mix it up into a real fight.
It doesn't matter whether you can beat the GF or not - its just thoroughly unenjoyable and sour experience, just like fighting the standard SE spamming TR wankers. That's why people hate fighting GFs.
----------------------------------
Lower the damage, change the basic implications of the melee system so that it is much, much easier and realistic to expect a GF to try a bit and latch on to the target like a hunting hound, and continuously use variety of attacks to deal a steady rate of damage and pressure the opponent to breaking point. Since it needs to use more attacks than current to deal damage, that implies its shield will be lowered a great deal more often to use it -- normalizing the risk:reward ratio for the class for other classes to have a fair chance to exploit.
When this happens, from this point all the rest of the problems simply solve itself.
A keen person might realize this is basically the EXACT SAME THING I've suggested for TRs in the past. Make it impossible to permastealth, have TRs comeout of stealth more often to more steadily and repeatedly attack, to be able to deal damage -- so the TR needs to make impromptu decisions and take risks during each moment of the fight, so it also exposes its own weaknesses in such prolonged engagements -- make it impossible for the TR to simply set itself up with a fail-proof, easy system of one-sided fight, that the TR can simply repeat mechanically and gain kills by periodically landing a mega-burst attack.
TL;DR:
1. basic fighting system setup for GF is too low risk for too much reward
2. need to make it much, much easier for GFs to hold longer time on target - easier to approach, debilitate, and pressure
3. at the expense of much, much lower damage
4. which implies the GF needs to close in and 'mix it up' more to be able to deal as much damage as it does currently
5. which also implies his shield would be down a lot more often, since he needs to attack more often
6. which, as a whole, would properly restore the class as a 'melee', in true melee-style fighting, rather than just being a pseudo-ranged guided missile.
Do this, and I gurantee you the quality of PvP experience goes up for both the GFs, and those who fight them, because it's going to be a helluva more fun fight than just playing the go#@!*($&! matador against a one-pattern bull.
Ole!
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Don't get me wrong, i do think they SHOULD do it, I just don't think they will.
--------------------
I see a rather personal tone friend. Which makes me sad.I don't have anything personal with anyone and i enjoy a good debate.I also enjoy defending my class.(Which is surprisingly easy cause none brings logs or valid arguments ,except rage and generalizations)
The thing you said about legit...is a lie.I never talk in legit,very rarely i ll ask for a group for vt or mc.How you come to this conclusion?...I would discredit my self by publicly stating in a public numerous channel that i lie in the forums?Common.
I see that i made you angry cause i pointed out some facts.
I have nothing against the GWfs.But don't sing all day the song of "GF got buffs!! "!.You got buffs more numerous and essential to Gf buffs.And still you want GF nerfed,while none GFs asked for a GWF nerf.I just mentioned this and you went Berserk.
The thing you say all the time(as a community): "GWf needs gear to shine".You are saying it over a year and cause none disputes it,people tend to believe that holds some essense and value.While clearly not.It is a straw man argument cause all classes need gear to perform ,(except OP Prot perhaps) yet you use this as a last resort fake argument to distract people.
And i honestly makes my day every time i read this. :)it is an argument good to be heard by other GWFs.The rest we laugh rolling on the floor.
(Multiscaling of stats is another issue that holds truth ,and i accept that,don't comfuse what i say)
As for the build you are mentioning it was always around ,nothing new.Now it will gain more popularity cause of bonding procs.'
which bondings are problem in a wider sense for every class cause they multiply the prime desired stats of every build,be it DPS or other.(Not that it matter much ,the content is so easy that will make little difference.110% DPS increase or 240% DPS increase have the same efficiency when the given HP pool of mobs can be liquidated with 100% DPS in 2-3 seconds.)
That's why i said to half ITF in pvp.
--------------------------------
Sorry for my long post, and to summarize up:
I don't troll,i argue.
ITf reduced effectiveness in pvp and Shield Wrath rework are what needed.
I never said the thing you claim.Maybe you heared something else somewhere else,by someone else, perhaps?Nvm.
Some GWFS ask for Gf nerfs(except one valiant GWf that stood to the crowd! \o/) when none Gf in the last two years ever asked for GWf nerf.
(And i will never do)
Kinda of unfair and bellow the waist hit,if you ask me.Nvm
Peace and goodnight.Good loot to all!!! \o/ \o/
no kind of nerf will ever bring this to balanced levels...
impacting pve, like if those damages were normal in pve too.
see
before you call the bs of ambush ring and no counter...he is not using it.
45k no crit griffons for strike on a paladin...
image if impact shot was doing those damages.... ye fair and balanced right???
Because you say something it must be correct ,right?Seems you have a very high esteem of yourself.
Please post the handles of the people that remember me talking in legit and saying that ,i don't know what.You claimed something ,proved it if you can.If you cannot admit that you were wrong.Plain and simple.You hold zero credibility.I talked in legit?And people remember eh?Post their handles now please and invite them to write in public what i have said.
You disproved nothing.You just say you disproved.You say it to your self,ehm it must be the truth eh? lol.
GWF damage is way off charts all know that except GWFs.
As about the "gear -high-to shine GWFs-so probably all fine- i laughed again.:) All classes need high gear in order to perfect they setup and custom fit their rotations to their build for maximum effect.Not just yours.But it is yours that soloes T2(in resonable time).Show a GF soloing epic T2s.
To the others:
One person asking for Gf nerfs is the person debating for a whole mod and defending mod5 TRs saying that Trs were perfectly fine.He just wants his class to reign supreme and his opponents nerfed.Nothing more nothing less.
He asks not for damage reduction but also shield drop time.Default block time is 8 secs by the way.
Another the only thing that found, is Minimis videos of smashing undergeared people.
I can find 10+ videos of TRs trolling people or HRs ,will that prove something?it was an HR that beat one of the best TRs 5-0 .So HRs are fine?Or they do need some work?I believe the second ,but by his logic the video will disprove that.
-------------------------
To dear Devs that reading this thread:
As you see there are no numbers posted ,just nerf requests based on impressions,poor class understanding and vitriolic hatred.
Please move on,to mod9 release and ignore these forumers.They lack credibility.Thanks