GF Burst damage: Needs nerf

zeusom

So back in mod6 GF wwas given a massive damage buff and went from weakest dps to strongest dps class. Now because of Stronghold boons and mod8 rings they have gotten just ridiculous and clearly need a damage nerf. This will become even worse with Maze engine / mounts.

Even now you can have permastealth ambush GF witg 30k power.
Just look at GF base weapon damage. GF base weapon damage at Green is MORE than SW base weapon damage at ORANGE. WTH.


.
And on TOP of this already insane base damage, GF can selfbuff their own damage much higher stacking marks (1.3x+), Into Fray (2-3x), knights challenge (2x damage). WTH again? Why they need absurd weapon damage if they can do this? Should be either/or not BOTH. My SW for example. I need 5 or 10 full rotations and dailies to kill a GF, but if they catch me just once I am stunlocked proned and instantly dead, no chance.

With ITF they are not slow either. A GF at will does more damage than my SW daily. WTH.
Now they can stealth.

Like Icydrake said its like being hit by an invisible train moving 100 mph.

grimah

GF dps is low compared to others. But the burst is ridiculous right now, Into the fray has changed things, but it won't be nerfed, it's the GF's PvE go-to. (Knights Challenge is less of a problem because of its penalty and using both lets you only use one encounter if you pick this and into the fray.)

Anvil double damaging on 40% is more or less where all this trouble is coming from, should be change so rather than do double damage it does a stun below 40% instead or something.

Oh yea and rings, but thats a different topic entirely. Let's GF land a guaranteed CC (same for GWF too). Don't count on them changing these.

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revovlerjesus1

You know that nerftrheads are not fine with ToS and will be deleted.

And as ppl are saying a GFs dps is laughable compared to other classes. IF u take away the burst how are u willing to compensate it with more dps? All i see i nerf them! And they have rings, only morons play with those rings anyhow (and all classes can use em, its not a GF ring) Fernu dsnt seem to have the struggle u have tho frog.

zeusom

Right, maybe I wouldn't struggle as much if I wore the ambush ring most of the time either... But don't and won't.


GF needs burst but they have a bit more than they need.
GF needs a base damage decrease of 10% to 15%.

ionvnegativo

make them to build stacks if they are succesfully hit in the back by encounter/daily powers .

hypervoreian

"So back in mod6 GF wwas given a massive damage buff"

As all classes,Gf was given base weapon damage increase.This happened to all classes including your own -bug messed -class.


"and went from weakest dps to strongest dps class. "

Yes ,yes you are very correct.GF is the strongest DPs.Yes i missed that .Didn't pay attention lately.Sure now i notice lfg groups ask for GFs to run in DPS slots indungeons.Not GWfs or Sws.


"Now because of Stronghold boons and mod8 rings they have gotten just ridiculous"

because of that boons some striker classes have gotten ridicoulous defense and hp.But i guess it is ok for the majority of NW forumers (CW/SW the majority).i mean common 130-140k hp SWs and CWs.No problem there.All WAi balance is fine.But tanks need damage nerf!!!

"and clearly need a damage nerf."

You are clearly against the TOS here

"This will become even worse with Maze engine / mounts."

This will apply to all the classes.Your bugged messed fest of a class will benefit aswell.SWs will get worse.They will all get the hp on crit mounts and be immortal.Also all the lifesteal bonus mounts.

"Even now you can have permastealth ambush GF witg 30k power."

..And more ambush SWs .So?

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A nerf thread plain out right no data ,no logs.Mods please close this forum violation fest.

hypervoreian

"- Swap the way the Conqueror and Protector trees gain stacks. Conquerors should be more proactive and have to hit to gain their stacks, which would make it harder to build up those damage bonuses."


This would lead to a mess in pve.If Prots would gain the debuff on hit...then they would debuff a number of adds simultaneously.
You would basically nerf pve content difficulty even more.Prot needs a capstone rework but that's belongs in another topic.
As for Conq capstone is fine as it is.It is the DPS tree of Gf .All should remember this.
Conq capstone was nerfed and changed prior to mod3 release.Cause then people were complaining that Gfs had too much power.

"- Make it so using Knight's Challenge entails a bigger potential risk and is harder to control; it shouldn't be toggleable or it should cancel upon blocking, or the target gets an additional damage bonus against the GF if he blocks."

Knight challenge is fine as it is.A highly risky choise with extreme good or bad rewards.GFs against a bad opponent=Gf wins .GF against a decent opponent(HR trapper for example).GF is in trouble.
But in general ,if ever devs want to nerf the class cause the endless whining and qq of SW/CWs ,Knight Challenge could be reworked.

"- Remove animation canceling from a number of GF powers. They already fixed a number of prominent animation canceling tricks for other classes, so GFs shouldn't be exempt. If you want to use ITF, you don't get to cancel and still get the benefit."

Agree.

"- Change either the activation conditions of utility power damage boosts to be less mutually compatible, or change their effect (i.e. Trample the Fallen could add to cc duration rather than damage against cced opponents)."

Partially agree.
Combat superiority is fine ,and is also feated deep into conq tree.
You should look in Shield's Wrath.If GFs need (?) a damage decrease ,Shield Wrath should be the first thing to look into.
Change it to make it usefull in pve,in defender role.Rework around temp hp/defense/stamina regen-gain..something like that.

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hypervoreian

^^^
people say nerf Gf cause they do not play it.
Iron warrior gives ...2% temp hps and has 16secs cooldown when Templar's wrath of OP gives 300%..and has 8 sec cooldown.
But what do you expect when 4k IL players state in forums that Gfs are the strongest DPs class....There is no hope

rayrdan

No hyp, weapon damage buffs were given only to gwfs and gfs in the whole nw history

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schietindebux

Facing a BIS GF as so a GWF all i can do is kite , avoid any hit and hope they will not land one cc on me.
I can´t kill a skilled GF or GWF myself at 3,3-3,5k upwards, they do onerotate me, in case they catch me.
That´s the actual situation most "squishy" classes have to deal with, I am pretty sure CW´s and Hunter suffer the same.
I hope there will be a solution, but this hope is very small
One of my points is also animation canceling (BC, AoD), that´s a big issue in PVP.

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gomok72

I have to say, as discussed today in our team speak about "all" class roles and damage. I'm inclined to believe, with up and coming mobs hitting like they are and the increase in health pools for the CN bosses, GF damage won't change.

Now on this note, every other classes damage and defenses will be looked at to take in account of what's going on with these classes and hopefully we will see a increase in SW's burst and defenses, GWF "Defense", CW's Control and debuff abilities.

On a negative, I'm not sure how many people are checking out the debuffs on the new ring "Natural order" but, honestly we are going to be seeing more GF globaling every other class in the game come mod 9 and PvP's dynamic changing completely.

In PvP you will have no choice but to spec as a hit and run with control % increase, healing and hit points will not help you come mod 9, with the natural order ring's dynamic the way it is.

kweassa

schietindebux said:

Facing a BIS GF as so a GWF all i can do is kite , avoid any hit and hope they will not land one cc on me.
I can´t kill a skilled GF or GWF myself at 3,3-3,5k upwards, they do onerotate me, in case they catch me.
That´s the actual situation most "squishy" classes have to deal with, I am pretty sure CW´s and Hunter suffer the same.
I hope there will be a solution, but this hope is very small
One of my points is also animation canceling (BC, AoD), that´s a big issue in PVP.

There is a solution, except it requires a bottom-up total redesign of the class. I've mentioned this before, but the current design concept of the GF doesn't exactly fit the "operating speed" of normal PvP situations in the game. Of all the classes in the game, the GF and the GWF are the two classes that stick out like a sore in regards to just how 'PvP unfriendly' it is -- and it both derives from the fact that melee combat in this game is lacking, inefficient, and left sorely wanting.

Melee tactics derive from the situation where you are allowed to land a series of hits in a row. Then it becomes a build-balancing in terms of which powers you are going to use as utilities(that help you land hits), and attacks(that lands actual damage). Except in this game, there isn't a "series of hits" because the basic system is overly penalizing to most melee attacks and how they are set up.

Many times I've said it, but basically, not withstanding gap-closers, all the target needs to do is simply press down one of "W" "S" "A" or "D" and start just walking into one direction, and that alone makes it nearly impossble to land any sort of series of melee attacks, let alone using stuff like dodge or teleport.

It's the same even if you land a pretty potent slow power on the target. Even with slows on your target, the moment you start attacking your feet are planted to the ground and you are rooted. In less than 1 or 2 seconds the enemy is out of your reach, and then by the time you catch up the slow effect is over.

Could it be really something this simple? The answer is yes. Something as small and simple as this, is actually behind why ALL our melee classes in PvP are currently designed this way. This 'small problem' = "I can't FRICKIN' HIT ANYTHING!! When I swing my attack!" ... is actually not so small. It's actually big enough that it cuts down significantly from the GF and the GWF its ability to fight, which in essence, is the starting point of why our GWFs and GFs are like this.

Observe:

Q: The window of opportunity to land damage is too small
A: compensate by making any damage that lands within that teeney window GINORMOUSLY HIGH

Q: Too many self-rooting, there's no way to stay on target
A: infinite sprints for the GWF, crazy long effective range for gap-closers for the GF

....


So basically, the two most obviously melee classes in this game, aren't really melees at all. They're more like pseudo-ranged classes. Instead of shooting bolts or arrows or daggers, they shoot themselves like a homing cannon. The GWF basically drives around in his Ferrari mode and swings like crazy until one CC lands and one-rotates the other guy, and the GF basically turtles around in a simple rotation where he attempts to shoot out with a gap-closer and one rotate the other guy, and basically turtles up and waits for the recharge so he repeats it enough until the other guy dies.

If we compare it to professional wrestling, the concept of "melee" as we know it would be like two wrestles locking up, trading punches and kicks, making a moves here and there.... whereas the style of "melee" for GFs and GWFs would be like wrestlers that don't use any other moves than just running body checks and headbutts or what not.

kweassa

So yes, both the GF and GWF burst damage needs a signifcant nerf, but at the same time, also requires as much significant a change to their basic feats, features and encounters to assist their overall efficiency as a melee class.

For starters;

1. Give them their prones back.
2. Give them their Threatening Rush back by removing the charges
3. Either allow "moving attacks" with their at-wills, or at least greatly increase their advancing distance.
4. Increase the potency and duration of any slow/root CCs they can deal

mamalion1234

kweassa said:

schietindebux said:

Facing a BIS GF as so a GWF all i can do is kite , avoid any hit and hope they will not land one cc on me.
I can´t kill a skilled GF or GWF myself at 3,3-3,5k upwards, they do onerotate me, in case they catch me.
That´s the actual situation most "squishy" classes have to deal with, I am pretty sure CW´s and Hunter suffer the same.
I hope there will be a solution, but this hope is very small
One of my points is also animation canceling (BC, AoD), that´s a big issue in PVP.

There is a solution, except it requires a bottom-up total redesign of the class. I've mentioned this before, but the current design concept of the GF doesn't exactly fit the "operating speed" of normal PvP situations in the game. Of all the classes in the game, the GF and the GWF are the two classes that stick out like a sore in regards to just how 'PvP unfriendly' it is -- and it both derives from the fact that melee combat in this game is lacking, inefficient, and left sorely wanting.

Melee tactics derive from the situation where you are allowed to land a series of hits in a row. Then it becomes a build-balancing in terms of which powers you are going to use as utilities(that help you land hits), and attacks(that lands actual damage). Except in this game, there isn't a "series of hits" because the basic system is overly penalizing to most melee attacks and how they are set up.

Many times I've said it, but basically, not withstanding gap-closers, all the target needs to do is simply press down one of "W" "S" "A" or "D" and start just walking into one direction, and that alone makes it nearly impossble to land any sort of series of melee attacks, let alone using stuff like dodge or teleport.

It's the same even if you land a pretty potent slow power on the target. Even with slows on your target, the moment you start attacking your feet are planted to the ground and you are rooted. In less than 1 or 2 seconds the enemy is out of your reach, and then by the time you catch up the slow effect is over.

Could it be really something this simple? The answer is yes. Something as small and simple as this, is actually behind why ALL our melee classes in PvP are currently designed this way. This 'small problem' = "I can't FRICKIN' HIT ANYTHING!! When I swing my attack!" ... is actually not so small. It's actually big enough that it cuts down significantly from the GF and the GWF its ability to fight, which in essence, is the starting point of why our GWFs and GFs are like this.

Observe:

Q: The window of opportunity to land damage is too small
A: compensate by making any damage that lands within that teeney window GINORMOUSLY HIGH

Q: Too many self-rooting, there's no way to stay on target
A: infinite sprints for the GWF, crazy long effective range for gap-closers for the GF

....


So basically, the two most obviously melee classes in this game, aren't really melees at all. They're more like pseudo-ranged classes. Instead of shooting bolts or arrows or daggers, they shoot themselves like a homing cannon. The GWF basically drives around in his Ferrari mode and swings like crazy until one CC lands and one-rotates the other guy, and the GF basically turtles around in a simple rotation where he attempts to shoot out with a gap-closer and one rotate the other guy, and basically turtles up and waits for the recharge so he repeats it enough until the other guy dies.

If we compare it to professional wrestling, the concept of "melee" as we know it would be like two wrestles locking up, trading punches and kicks, making a moves here and there.... whereas the style of "melee" for GFs and GWFs would be like wrestlers that don't use any other moves than just running body checks and headbutts or what not.

they dont need gap closer remember into the fray increase and the range. he can cast crescendo and bull charge(swordmasters they dont have threatening rush) from very far with into the fray buff.

icyphish

Dont worry, there are a few Speed type GWFs around, but only very few utilise the build well enough to make an impact, most of them just run around like headless flies, not much of a threat

kweassa said:

schietindebux said:

Facing a BIS GF as so a GWF all i can do is kite , avoid any hit and hope they will not land one cc on me.
I can´t kill a skilled GF or GWF myself at 3,3-3,5k upwards, they do onerotate me, in case they catch me.
That´s the actual situation most "squishy" classes have to deal with, I am pretty sure CW´s and Hunter suffer the same.
I hope there will be a solution, but this hope is very small
One of my points is also animation canceling (BC, AoD), that´s a big issue in PVP.

There is a solution, except it requires a bottom-up total redesign of the class. I've mentioned this before, but the current design concept of the GF doesn't exactly fit the "operating speed" of normal PvP situations in the game. Of all the classes in the game, the GF and the GWF are the two classes that stick out like a sore in regards to just how 'PvP unfriendly' it is -- and it both derives from the fact that melee combat in this game is lacking, inefficient, and left sorely wanting.

Melee tactics derive from the situation where you are allowed to land a series of hits in a row. Then it becomes a build-balancing in terms of which powers you are going to use as utilities(that help you land hits), and attacks(that lands actual damage). Except in this game, there isn't a "series of hits" because the basic system is overly penalizing to most melee attacks and how they are set up.

Many times I've said it, but basically, not withstanding gap-closers, all the target needs to do is simply press down one of "W" "S" "A" or "D" and start just walking into one direction, and that alone makes it nearly impossble to land any sort of series of melee attacks, let alone using stuff like dodge or teleport.

It's the same even if you land a pretty potent slow power on the target. Even with slows on your target, the moment you start attacking your feet are planted to the ground and you are rooted. In less than 1 or 2 seconds the enemy is out of your reach, and then by the time you catch up the slow effect is over.

Could it be really something this simple? The answer is yes. Something as small and simple as this, is actually behind why ALL our melee classes in PvP are currently designed this way. This 'small problem' = "I can't FRICKIN' HIT ANYTHING!! When I swing my attack!" ... is actually not so small. It's actually big enough that it cuts down significantly from the GF and the GWF its ability to fight, which in essence, is the starting point of why our GWFs and GFs are like this.

Observe:

Q: The window of opportunity to land damage is too small
A: compensate by making any damage that lands within that teeney window GINORMOUSLY HIGH

Q: Too many self-rooting, there's no way to stay on target
A: infinite sprints for the GWF, crazy long effective range for gap-closers for the GF

....


So basically, the two most obviously melee classes in this game, aren't really melees at all. They're more like pseudo-ranged classes. Instead of shooting bolts or arrows or daggers, they shoot themselves like a homing cannon. The GWF basically drives around in his Ferrari mode and swings like crazy until one CC lands and one-rotates the other guy, and the GF basically turtles around in a simple rotation where he attempts to shoot out with a gap-closer and one rotate the other guy, and basically turtles up and waits for the recharge so he repeats it enough until the other guy dies.

If we compare it to professional wrestling, the concept of "melee" as we know it would be like two wrestles locking up, trading punches and kicks, making a moves here and there.... whereas the style of "melee" for GFs and GWFs would be like wrestlers that don't use any other moves than just running body checks and headbutts or what not.

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zeusom

Why are people refuting that GF is the strongest dps class in pvp?
This was posted in PvP forum and so "strongest dps" refers to pvp only.

GF has the strongest dps in pvp. There is no argument about that.
DPS = Damage per second.

Look at each class. In the time cycle of 1 full rotation (a few seconds), which class can do the most damage?
Guardian Fighter, without any doubt.
Highest dps.

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schietindebux

That´s right I deal more damage in match than most other classes, problem is...the Dot´s only tickle classes with high defense, no burst, and the only gap closer my class has is KF wich only hurts in case the target is near death below<30%HP, worthless imo.
A GF goes ITF-(crescendo)-BC-AoD...that´s a lot of damage in 2 seconds in case he cancels his animation.
If he doesn´t care about "fairplay", he goes KC-ITF-crescendo-BC and turtles any incoming damage away, his crescendo having a hitbox like 20 feet, flying towards the target like superman
There are 3k+ GF that do onerotate with that combo and there are some dudes who even being BIS will not kill a fly, no clue what they are doing wrong
My solution is a build that has infinite stamina+cc immunity kiting them and defend that fkn node and most GF/GWF hate it I am pretty sure because it just "s.ucks", but there is no option to factank this madness, sorry.
I can´t stand any of this burst, being less mobile than a GF on ITF or a GWF who got the best mobility ingame after the templock wich i run.
"hit and run" as someone posted, hoping getting BIS and stables up (in about 10 years) it will be "kill and run"

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gomok72

etelgrin said:

As a fellow Warlock primary problem is skill activation time. GFs can use ITF, Bullcharge and Anvil at least one person when my SW finish casting Flames of Pelegetheos. On top of that, I stack as much DoTs and try to get behind him can often result in inevitable death. Warlock stamina and speed is less effective than GFs using ITF to get a speed boost, you as a class that's supposed to have highest mobility, will anyway get stunlocked by GF and eventually die. However lower geared GFs, without uber high power, feytouched and high defense, are not as good and can't one rotate. Problem that is spoken is about BiS GFs, any nerf done will make undergeared GFs suffer alot more, than the overpowered ones will. Drains and Ambush rings are an option, but I bet everyone already knows this (no hate intended).

That's not true, Etelgrin, there are about 5 "Non" BIS GF, I know that's in my guild that can global any class in this game that are BIS, one is Merciless (Quite sure everyone in the PvP community knows him), the other is WAR.

Now while I have to say, there is a buff bug (This bug triples GF's damage on hit with all of the other buffs mentioned) utilized by a lot of GF in game to actually global you with BC and AoD, I know two that I won't name shame here that has been using it in PvP to kill people.

Again, I don't think they should nerf the GF's damage (Fix the Paladin/Cleric buff bug), just buff everyone else's defense to deal with it better.

gomok72

Grr, double post

zeusom

xsayajinx1 said:

@zeusom you are wrong there, GF have actually not the highest 'dps' - if you run ACT you will see other classes will dish out more 'dps' = damage per second in a whole match.

That is the Total damage over a match. But right, usually DPS by default the "S" (seconds) refers to the entire match duration. In terms of pvp though, the relevant timeframe for DPS is during individual fights/rotations because burst is king. With so much healing over time, total damage output over the entire match timeframe is kind of irrelevant.

By the way. very often a strong GF will have the highest ACT damage over the entire match as well even despite their blocking, turtling about much of the time as macjae pointed out.

zeusom

The bottom line is this:

170k HP
3600 Tenacity
TFey (16% damage reduction)
GF Ward (10% damage reduction)
Warding curse (10% damage reduction)
Still 1rotated by BiS GF
is not reasonable

hawkend

@zeusom

Even TR which used Courage Breaker on GF was oneshotted. And i still not understand why ITF granting movement speed. I dont know where is logic when HR with 5-6 stacks of Fox have rather this same movement speed like GF with ITF.