I'm sorry if I missed this in any other post, skimmed through most of them but might've missed it anyways...
What at-wills/encounters/passives would you use for PvP? I've been running with cc/ray, dis, shield(tab), repel and entangling force with chilling/ss as passives.
I read that MM is pretty solid for PvP too and I'm tempted to try it out, what do you prefer and why?
Edit: I'm on Xbox.
Thanks in advance!
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Is spell twisting still better than abyss of chaos paired with a lightning enchant?
The Lightning enchant's arc jumps trigger Abyss on their own, so I don't need a 2nd person/companion to deal the damage. Each target I hit with an encounter, procs the arc on their own, so for example Steal Time can deal damage up to 5 enemies, 4 times. Each enemy hit, activates the Lightning arc that deals damage to other 3 enemies, which then proc Abyss of Chaos.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
So that's an interesting question. Lots to talk about here. I've actually been playing around with Abyss of Chaos and a Transcendent Lighting for a couple weeks.
First, I still think Spell Twisting is the single best T3 feat for CWs. I wouldn't build without it. Not only does it help with AOE, it's a fantastic DPS boost on single targets. So I wouldn't drop that for anything.
So your choice is between Abyss and Uncertain Allegiance. I went back to do more testing on Abyss, and it's a good feat. I was averaging 9-12% damage with Abyss. It was my number three damage source behind Lostmauth and Storm Spell. But you have to ask yourself if the personal DPS boost is worth dropping 5% critical strike for you and the group. If it was only a personal buff, definitely yes after a certain gear level....but that 5% group buff is really significant.
Same thing with Vorpal vs Lightning. In a group, there's so much stuff hitting the bad guys that Abyss with proc like crazy without using Lightning. And your overall DPS is going to be lower with a Lightning versus a Vorpal, much worse on single targets.
But if you're mostly soloing, then Lightning/Abyss is a good option. But I'd drop Uncertain Allegiance for it. If you're mostly doing group stuff, I'd keep UA and Vorpal/Terror/Plaguefire.
Hmmm got it. Though it's not feasible to switch builds constantly.
Is a full renegade build viable? Cause you can loop phantasm all destruction with a intellect predator and nightmare wizardry.
If you get rid of spell twisting you need to stack recovery so that when one rotation is done you can start another rotation. I wonder how much that takes.
Also... If you add a lightning enchant to a master of flame whose got the elemental reinforcement feat, would that enable him to get an extra 5% damage buff for a total of 20%?
I dropped energy recover for reapers touch cause I found icy terrain kept bringing me into the middle of it all anyway so might as well give myself a damage boost there. On a full ish renegade or thaum build I keep putting points into bitter cold for extra damage against chilled targets as well. Since we use so much chill, it should constantly be up right? Unless the tooltip is wonky...
Also... If lostmauth set has been fixed to apply it's bonus onto skills that previously did not apply it's not us such as burning light (paladin), dreadtheft (scourge), and roots (hunter), then would it not also apply to smolder/rimefire dots? Would this throw master of flame dps over spell storm dps?
In which case... If it does... Mof renegade or mof thaum?
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
If you're just worried about personal DPS, Thaumaturge is better. But in a group, the Renegade brings more total DPS to the table with the buffs.
Spell Twisting is a significant boost to DPS. You'd have to stack a lot of recovery to compensate for that, and any recovery your stacking is a loss of power/critical strike. Reaper's Touch is fine. Either Energy Recovery or Reaper's Touch isn't that noticeable. You just don't drive very much DPS from your at-will powers. Reaper's Touch is probably less than a 0.5% increase in DPS.
So you're sort of locked into those 15 points in Thaumaturge to get Spell Twisting. Phantasmal Destruction is a nice feat, but I wouldn't trade anything for those five points. 15% critical severity is nice, but it's not worth trading out Chilling Advantage, Nightmare Wizardry or Spell Twisting for.
Yes, it is definitely viable to do full renegade. I recently respecced and I find that my DPS has gone up quit a bit with a full renegade build. I definitely miss Spell Twisting but having 15% more crit severity more than makes up for it. I also dropped Energy recovery for reapers touch.
It is very synergistic because without Spell Twisting you use At-wills more often and Reapers touch gives a nice boost to your at-wills then. Plus I switched to Magic Missile with the 6% dmg increase from OH and that works well together with Masterful Arcane Theft since you build stacks of Arcane with Magic Missile and Oppressive Force increasing damage even further.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I'd love to see your testing from the switch. Every test I've done shows a substantial DPS loss from dropping Spell Twisting.
I'd love to see your testing from the switch. Every test I've done shows a substantial DPS loss from dropping Spell Twisting.
I wish I could actually test but I'm on Xbox. I am just basing it off of running with the same people typically and seeing my numbers higher than they used to be. I still get beaten by good GWF's and SW's but that is it. With my old build I would often be within a couple million +/- of a well geared rogue in our guild but now I out damage him by quit a bit and he hasn't adjusted anything.
So not very scientific but it's the best I got. I can give you my full build if you would like to do the testing.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Higher numbers isn't the same as higher DPS. The Paingiver chart is misleading as well. He who hits first and hits hardest will always win the Paingiver chart. But piling up damage on trash isn't very important to me.
I understand that but if I run with the same 4 people many times doing 40-50mill and respec and now do 60-70mill with the same group then my DPS has most likely increased. But I have no way to test it other than that.
With my summoned Zwarlock companion keeping me way over capped in crit and arp, I am wondering if it makes since to move some feats around as well. I am constantly over 100% crit (as high as 125%). Any thoughts from the peanut gallery? JK lol
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I'm in the same boat, which is why I was playing around with Abyss of Chaos again. But dropping it also hurts the group, so I don't know...with combat buffs and three stacks of Bonding, I'm over 100% without any Chaos Magic.
If you're heading up there in crit to a point where you no longer need chaos magic to buff you up anymore, wouldn't it be better off to go with thaum at higher item levels? You probably get bumped down to 90% crit as you'll lose chilling advantage but you gain access to a lot of damaging buffs.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited December 2015
Just ran some quick tests. Everything seems to be working as expected.
My set up was a level 15 orb (from the Trade of Blades vendor). No other gear. No stat points allocated (except for 18 CHA from base stats). No feats. No companions active. Basically as blank as I could get.
I used the white war dog (+25 armor pen) to generate combat advantage via flanking.
Just used Ray of Frost. Only ran each test for about 60 seconds.
Base CA damage is +15%.
CHA adds +1% CA damage per point. Drow Tactics is +10% CA damage. Combat Advantage Stat is working as expected
So the formula should be (15%+CHA+Drow Tactics+CA Stat) * Int Devourer * Blink Dog.
I can confirm that all those variables add damage. Kaelac's original equation had most everything being additive, but from my quick and dirty testing, the math seemed to be more consistent if it was multiplicative instead. Which is a big freaking deal.
But I can't draw anything conclusive without better testing. Although I can confirm without a doubt Combat Advantage is most definitely working.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
If you're heading up there in crit to a point where you no longer need chaos magic to buff you up anymore, wouldn't it be better off to go with thaum at higher item levels? You probably get bumped down to 90% crit as you'll lose chilling advantage but you gain access to a lot of damaging buffs.
If personal damage is your thing, then yes, Thaumaturge will out perform Renegade. But from a group basis, there's a lot of fantastic group buffs in the Renegade tree that benefit everyone. So not only is your damage a little lower from not being a Thaumaturge, comparatively, everyone's damage is also higher because of your buffs, so it appears that you're performing worse.
I like the idea of buffing everyone which is why I like the idea of master of flame, but at high levels do your party mates really need that extra crit or arm pen that they are trying to build up on their own? The biggest loss I see by losing a renegade is the gift of combat advantage and some heals when chaotic growth procs.
Great guide Ironzerg. One question tho, can you out damage a GWF? Or is the point of the guide titel that a GWF is 4 times as good at cc as a control wizard.
I am a cw at 2.7k ilevel using an argument companion, mostly I play with a friend Who is a 2.5k GWF using a priest at White level as companion, the one you buy for 2 gp. He dos about 4 times the dps that I do.
Now my question is this; do you out damage a GWF of about equal gear, or is the CW pointless in a group at the moment? And yes I do buff his damage, but not nearly to the point where another GWF would not have been a better pick for dps... And there by cowed control? The problem here is not that he dos more damage than me, the problem is that he dos more then 4 times my damage I do 4 mil in a skirmish and he dos 14mil.
@cort - the renegade control wizard is never a pointless addition into the group due to the buffs that they grant a party. Extra crit, plus combat advantage that they don't even have to position themselves correctly for to get plus extra damage? Plus a good chunk of damage, plus a small reprieve from being hit by freezing the targets in our ice titties? Okay... You gotta admit us control wizards are a little perverted cause we freeze our enemies into lovely sculptures that look like icy nipples. You were all thinking it but I had the guts to say it.
For additional damage save up for bonding stones of greater rank or higher. Then put that in the intellect predator pet. It'll boost your damage by a lot. As well as help you keep one of your buffs up in the party.
A control wizard in my guild did this and boosted his personal dps by 40mill and can keep up with gwf now.
Hey bkt. Thanks for the pointers. Just gonna point out that a GWF generate his own combat advantage with his shout. The extra crit is OK. But even if 30% of the damage done by a GWF is due to the CW in the group, they would still be a lot better off with another GWF instead. The problem is that in a group there are 3 spots for dps and if one is a GWF he will do as much damage or more then the rest of the group combined.
This game has huge balancing problems... I'm just saying
Hey bkt. Thanks for the pointers. Just gonna point out that a GWF generate his own combat advantage with his shout. The extra crit is OK. But even if 30% of the damage done by a GWF is due to the CW in the group, they would still be a lot better off with another GWF instead. The problem is that in a group there are 3 spots for dps and if one is a GWF he will do as much damage or more then the rest of the group combined.
This game has huge balancing problems... I'm just saying
Came to that conclusion a while ago. At 3.1k with rank 10 brutals in all offensive slots, legendary mainhand and an elol set and I still get out DPS'd by GWFs at 2.5k : |
I like playing CW though and I hope they'll eventually become relevant again but it just becomes more and more obvious how worthless any upgrades I make are relative to what other classes can do.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited December 2015
@cortrillion#9371 If you're being out DPS'd by about 4x, then you probably need to practice more. There's no doubt a gap right now between GWFs and everyone else, but that's a gross exaggeration. I've been parsing a lot of Epic Demogorgon runs over the past two weeks, and I've been lucky enough to be in groups with some of the best GWF in the game, including a run with the legendary Lazallia. Most times the very best sustained DPS I'm seeing from people is about 100k DPS. Most times I'm averaging about 70k DPS start to finish, but depending on how weak or strong the group is, that can be as high as 100k as well.
But beyond that, this guide is here to talk about how you can play your CW the best, not complain about GWFs. If you're feeling useless, go roll one. There's nothing wrong with that. But keep in mind that balance tends to oscillate in this game. CWs have always been at or near the top of the PvE game, while GWFs have been the absolute bottom and now are at the undisputed top. But who cares?
Back a few modules ago, people complained loudly that the CW was so OP, there was no reason to take anything but a party of 5 CWs...did that kill the rest of the classes? No. And what's the point anyway? In the time it would take you to gather an "uber" party of 10 GWF's for Demogorgon, a group of mixed classes could probably get gold 3 or 4 times.
But chances are even if you switch classes, you're going to get out played by better players. There's more to this game than iLevel. There's a lot of skill involved in playing a class, and the more intimately familiar a person is with the abilities and "feel" of each class, the better they're going to play. So again, you can switch and play a GWF...nothing wrong with that (until they get nerfed, and now you're frustrated again). Or you can practice more with your CW, get better and close that gap. Because as I said earlier...skill and gear being equal, no CW should be getting out DPS'd 4x by any class.
So if you want to talk about how you can be a better CW, let's talk. If you want to complain about the GWF class, take it to another thread.
Well said. Also if people stopped complaining about the flavor of the month class maybe no class would have been nerfed in the first place. Maybe control wizards spell storm would have been untouched? Maybe burning devo Paladins would have remained untouched?
I would like to see all classes have their abilities that really make all other classes go wow I can't believe they can do that. You know?
This is the control wizard portion of the forums though.
Oh and I'm kinda jealous that the pc players have some really awesome characters gracing their presence on their servers. Ironzerg, lazalia?!? Woooo that party must have been crazy!!!!
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
And if one of the groups last week noticed that Demogorgon was walking around stiffly, holding his backside and grimacing, it's because that super group had just got done with him...it was pretty ridiculous
If I remember correctly, there was about 3 or 4 of the regular forum "all stars" in that group.
Comments
I'm sorry if I missed this in any other post, skimmed through most of them but might've missed it anyways...
What at-wills/encounters/passives would you use for PvP? I've been running with cc/ray, dis, shield(tab), repel and entangling force with chilling/ss as passives.
I read that MM is pretty solid for PvP too and I'm tempted to try it out, what do you prefer and why?
Edit: I'm on Xbox.
Thanks in advance!
http://varangianguards.enjin.com/forum/m/33992264/viewthread/24613606-underdark-gear-preview-control-wizard-analysis/post/106738139
The Lightning enchant's arc jumps trigger Abyss on their own, so I don't need a 2nd person/companion to deal the damage. Each target I hit with an encounter, procs the arc on their own, so for example Steal Time can deal damage up to 5 enemies, 4 times. Each enemy hit, activates the Lightning arc that deals damage to other 3 enemies, which then proc Abyss of Chaos.
First, I still think Spell Twisting is the single best T3 feat for CWs. I wouldn't build without it. Not only does it help with AOE, it's a fantastic DPS boost on single targets. So I wouldn't drop that for anything.
So your choice is between Abyss and Uncertain Allegiance. I went back to do more testing on Abyss, and it's a good feat. I was averaging 9-12% damage with Abyss. It was my number three damage source behind Lostmauth and Storm Spell. But you have to ask yourself if the personal DPS boost is worth dropping 5% critical strike for you and the group. If it was only a personal buff, definitely yes after a certain gear level....but that 5% group buff is really significant.
Same thing with Vorpal vs Lightning. In a group, there's so much stuff hitting the bad guys that Abyss with proc like crazy without using Lightning. And your overall DPS is going to be lower with a Lightning versus a Vorpal, much worse on single targets.
But if you're mostly soloing, then Lightning/Abyss is a good option. But I'd drop Uncertain Allegiance for it. If you're mostly doing group stuff, I'd keep UA and Vorpal/Terror/Plaguefire.
Is a full renegade build viable? Cause you can loop phantasm all destruction with a intellect predator and nightmare wizardry.
If you get rid of spell twisting you need to stack recovery so that when one rotation is done you can start another rotation. I wonder how much that takes.
Also... If you add a lightning enchant to a master of flame whose got the elemental reinforcement feat, would that enable him to get an extra 5% damage buff for a total of 20%?
I dropped energy recover for reapers touch cause I found icy terrain kept bringing me into the middle of it all anyway so might as well give myself a damage boost there. On a full ish renegade or thaum build I keep putting points into bitter cold for extra damage against chilled targets as well. Since we use so much chill, it should constantly be up right? Unless the tooltip is wonky...
Also... If lostmauth set has been fixed to apply it's bonus onto skills that previously did not apply it's not us such as burning light (paladin), dreadtheft (scourge), and roots (hunter), then would it not also apply to smolder/rimefire dots? Would this throw master of flame dps over spell storm dps?
In which case... If it does... Mof renegade or mof thaum?
Spell Twisting is a significant boost to DPS. You'd have to stack a lot of recovery to compensate for that, and any recovery your stacking is a loss of power/critical strike. Reaper's Touch is fine. Either Energy Recovery or Reaper's Touch isn't that noticeable. You just don't drive very much DPS from your at-will powers. Reaper's Touch is probably less than a 0.5% increase in DPS.
So you're sort of locked into those 15 points in Thaumaturge to get Spell Twisting. Phantasmal Destruction is a nice feat, but I wouldn't trade anything for those five points. 15% critical severity is nice, but it's not worth trading out Chilling Advantage, Nightmare Wizardry or Spell Twisting for.
It is very synergistic because without Spell Twisting you use At-wills more often and Reapers touch gives a nice boost to your at-wills then. Plus I switched to Magic Missile with the 6% dmg increase from OH and that works well together with Masterful Arcane Theft since you build stacks of Arcane with Magic Missile and Oppressive Force increasing damage even further.
So not very scientific but it's the best I got. I can give you my full build if you would like to do the testing.
My set up was a level 15 orb (from the Trade of Blades vendor). No other gear. No stat points allocated (except for 18 CHA from base stats). No feats. No companions active. Basically as blank as I could get.
I used the white war dog (+25 armor pen) to generate combat advantage via flanking.
Just used Ray of Frost. Only ran each test for about 60 seconds.
Base CA damage is +15%.
CHA adds +1% CA damage per point.
Drow Tactics is +10% CA damage.
Combat Advantage Stat is working as expected
So the formula should be (15%+CHA+Drow Tactics+CA Stat) * Int Devourer * Blink Dog.
I can confirm that all those variables add damage. Kaelac's original equation had most everything being additive, but from my quick and dirty testing, the math seemed to be more consistent if it was multiplicative instead. Which is a big freaking deal.
But I can't draw anything conclusive without better testing. Although I can confirm without a doubt Combat Advantage is most definitely working.
I am a cw at 2.7k ilevel using an argument companion, mostly I play with a friend Who is a 2.5k GWF using a priest at White level as companion, the one you buy for 2 gp. He dos about 4 times the dps that I do.
Now my question is this; do you out damage a GWF of about equal gear, or is the CW pointless in a group at the moment? And yes I do buff his damage, but not nearly to the point where another GWF would not have been a better pick for dps... And there by cowed control? The problem here is not that he dos more damage than me, the problem is that he dos more then 4 times my damage I do 4 mil in a skirmish and he dos 14mil.
any way. Nice guide
For additional damage save up for bonding stones of greater rank or higher. Then put that in the intellect predator pet. It'll boost your damage by a lot. As well as help you keep one of your buffs up in the party.
A control wizard in my guild did this and boosted his personal dps by 40mill and can keep up with gwf now.
This game has huge balancing problems... I'm just saying
I like playing CW though and I hope they'll eventually become relevant again but it just becomes more and more obvious how worthless any upgrades I make are relative to what other classes can do.
But beyond that, this guide is here to talk about how you can play your CW the best, not complain about GWFs. If you're feeling useless, go roll one. There's nothing wrong with that. But keep in mind that balance tends to oscillate in this game. CWs have always been at or near the top of the PvE game, while GWFs have been the absolute bottom and now are at the undisputed top. But who cares?
Back a few modules ago, people complained loudly that the CW was so OP, there was no reason to take anything but a party of 5 CWs...did that kill the rest of the classes? No. And what's the point anyway? In the time it would take you to gather an "uber" party of 10 GWF's for Demogorgon, a group of mixed classes could probably get gold 3 or 4 times.
But chances are even if you switch classes, you're going to get out played by better players. There's more to this game than iLevel. There's a lot of skill involved in playing a class, and the more intimately familiar a person is with the abilities and "feel" of each class, the better they're going to play. So again, you can switch and play a GWF...nothing wrong with that (until they get nerfed, and now you're frustrated again). Or you can practice more with your CW, get better and close that gap. Because as I said earlier...skill and gear being equal, no CW should be getting out DPS'd 4x by any class.
So if you want to talk about how you can be a better CW, let's talk. If you want to complain about the GWF class, take it to another thread.
I would like to see all classes have their abilities that really make all other classes go wow I can't believe they can do that. You know?
This is the control wizard portion of the forums though.
Oh and I'm kinda jealous that the pc players have some really awesome characters gracing their presence on their servers. Ironzerg, lazalia?!? Woooo that party must have been crazy!!!!
And if one of the groups last week noticed that Demogorgon was walking around stiffly, holding his backside and grimacing, it's because that super group had just got done with him...it was pretty ridiculous
If I remember correctly, there was about 3 or 4 of the regular forum "all stars" in that group.