One way or another, it's scary to think that any single r7 can with a few clicks demote and kick everyone... Arc has some additional measures in place to avoid compromised accounts like the email notification but those can be turned off, and if an account is sold chances are the attached email is part of the deal, or if Arc has some system for changing an email account (which is not uncommon nowadays) on an account.
Whether it's a sold account, or a hacked account, or someone going postal... it's too easy, and too difficult to undo- maybe even impossible. Tickets can be filled out, MAYBE you get some GM assistance, but what if the guild bank is in shambles by then? Or buildings demolished? Would the GMs really replace everything? Or would that be countless more tickets made each with an increasing chance of never being answered?
It's just sad, thinking about the allied guild that's going through this (mentioned in my earlier post) puts a pit in my stomach. I mean it's still there and the situation isn't a self-destructive one, but ownership of the guild has been completely stolen over something like a friggin instance cap not letting someone do a Dragonflight run. Something so simple can completely undo months or years of collaborative work because there's just no defense against it... it's a shame.
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tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
The question is, when the support denies to help with small issues, like giving a free respec to resolve the rank 4 power bug, why would they help in such an complex issue?
The only thing that would help at this point, is asking the Devs to tie guild donations to an account, if a player gets kicked from a guild, the donations go with him.
It might also help, if a CM could pass this along to a Dev, so that we might hear something official about this issue...
Post edited by regenerde on
I do believe in killing the messenger...
Want to know why?
Because it sends a message!
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tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
At the end of the day, it's still "He said, she said". Apart from implementing better security features that guilds can chose to utilize, I don't know what they can do.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
Sadly, I do not think that anything can be done with the guild in question. Perhaps the devs can look at some privileges in guilds and tweak things to try to prevent this thing from happening in the future, but I don't think that Customer Service is going to be able to do anything to help the current issue with Kata's guild. (This is just going by my experience as a player, and nothing to do with my position as a moderator - I could be totally incorrect on all of this).
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Well, perhaps one of you two could either pass the idea of binding donations to the player account instead of just to a guild along to the Devs? Or maybe ask the Devs, what they can do to help?
Strongholds are a main part of the game now, so i think it would be good to come up with an plan of action, before this might turn into some kind of "bussiness idea": Letting other players do the building/upgrading for Stronghold, but then sell the leader account for real money.
Guilds can be cesspools of drama and bad behavior...often created by or tolerated by leadership. They can also be very well-run and centered on members' best interests rather than those of the leaders. That said, individual players can certainly be jerks themselves, and if someone takes the time to organize, govern and administrate a guild, they should not be compelled to keep anyone on board who demonstrates bad behavior or who does not contribute to the common good. But they should not be able to give a productive member the boot on a whim or out of spite.
With this in mind, I quite like the idea of binding contributions to characters or player accounts. Guild Marks work this way. If you leave a guild or are kicked, your Guild Marks move with you, they cannot be used while you have no guild, but once you join up again elsewhere, your Guild Marks re-appear in your inventory.
I have personal experience with this. I was in a guild pre-stronghold, and left shortly after the beginning of Mod 7 due to leadership displaying bad behavior and throwing tantrums. I landed with another large and prominent guild immediately, and was given the boot after several weeks for missing a couple of days due to a family member's medical crisis. While I hold no grudge, the guild leader acted pretty poorly in this regard, as I did everything within published guild rules/guidelines in my absence, and there was no communication or inquiry prior to my ejection.
Having finally landed in a guild with a great crew, and one which seems a perfect fit for me, I am very glad my Guild Marks traveled with me. I worked hard for them, and want to be able to use them. Now...I don't know that it would have been fair for loot from my first guild's coffer to travel with me. After all, I decided to leave, and I could have stayed. They have a very loyal member base who gladly tolerate the leadership's quirks, and even seem to enjoy it. Not my cup of tea. No harm, no foul. But the guild which kicked me...I busted my rear for a month or so to stuff their coffers, get boons, build everything up, etc. Donated lots of AD, gold and campaign currency which I will never see again. I would have no problem with the fruits of my efforts following me to my new guild where I am happy and plan to stay for the long-term. After being kicked for little to no cause, I believe that this would be fair. I would rather that my hard work benefit my current guild rather than staying with one which unceremoniously gave me the boot and kept my goods.
If coffer loot followed players who were kicked but not those who leave voluntarily, it would incentivize leadership to keep a stable and happy membership. It would not encourage guild-hopping, as players would not take loot with them if they left voluntarily. Further, it might even help to diminish turnover in general. I would imagine that leadership would vet players more carefully, perhaps even having prospects run with the guild for a while before giving an invite, as no leader would wish to kick players repeatedly and watch coffer balances go up and down based on an unstable member base.
I believe that accounts of guild leaders would not be viable for sale if this were implemented, as any leader who booted his membership in order to sell the guild account would be selling a gutted stronghold. Only if the guild bank were stuffed to the gills with high-value goods would there be any level of interest in acquiring a guild after members were kicked taking their loot from the coffer with them. Or if the bulk of the guild stayed on and were complicit in the sale...not likely.
I would imagine that this might be difficult to implement, as it would require tracking player contributions continually, even after they enter the coffer. Maybe all contributions could simply bind to the player when they enter the coffer, but be counted toward coffer totals for guild purposes? However, if feasible, this would go a long way toward eliminating some of the sketchy behavior which can be present in guilds with poor leadership.
MMO's bring out the most selfish and immoral behavior. I want to be better then so and so. I want to spit out my IL in WoD for a zerg timer. I want to stomp noobies in PvP. Jump around a pack of AFKer on their new mount with a "look at me, look at me."
It's competitiveness that keeps MMOs alive, after end-game, they're all hamster on a wheel from my exp. So it does not shock me at all when cooperation breaks down to either dysfunction or full-blown malfeasance. SH's assumed too much trust in a context that works against trust; Strangers with variable backgrounds, cultures, and ethics, no tangible consequences, permanent anonymity, etc.
...Strongholds are a main part of the game now, so i think it would be good to come up with an plan of action, before this might turn into some kind of "bussiness idea": Letting other players do the building/upgrading for Stronghold, but then sell the leader account for real money.
This - this concept right here is whatcould doom strongholds and guilds alike.
The OP's scenario (and other variants of it) have happened in other MMOs before. Yes, it's horrible. But this is not some new phenomenon. Outside of implementing a leadership security system to address the problem with guild takeovers/mutinies (they can simply import the one from Star Trek), there aren't any real reasons why the developers would implement any of these other suggestions.
Well, i would add to my idea, that you won't get any marks from those refunded Stronghold Vouchers, but other then that... players would at least have the certainty, that the resources they donate are not lost completly, when they get kicked out of a guild.
Again, some Dev feedback on this issue would really be helpfull. - Do they see the issue at hand? - Are there plans on doing something about it? - When will they be able to patch a solution?
The OP's scenario (and other variants of it) have happened in other MMOs before. Yes, it's horrible. But this is not some new phenomenon. Outside of implementing a leadership security system to address the problem with guild takeovers/mutinies (they can simply import the one from Star Trek), there aren't any real reasons why the developers would implement any of these other suggestions.
Eh. The whole problem is the reliance on guild leadership. Strongholds require too many resources to have your progress tied to the will of a few people that could go off the deep end at any time. I mean imagine if something like the OP's story happens to someone with a rank 20 stronghold. That would probably be over a year of work down the drain. No matter how many security measures they implement something bad will happen and support will not do jack about it.
I still don't understand why you want the resources Back you ALREADY received Guild Marks for them. You are basically asking to double Dip. I get guild marks and I get to Donate TWICE..... I can already see ways to abuse this with just Alt Guilds, let alone other ways I am sure people could think of.
Again... this is about getting kicked from a guild without any good reason.
If a guild leader/officier decides to kick players from the guild and then sell that guild for real money, there is nothing any player can do against it. But if the guild donations are tied to the player account, a guild leader/officier has to think twice about kicking players just for fun.
Q: So, what do you get right now, when you put time and/or money into your guild, and you get kicked from the guild? A: You get nothing.
The important guild benefits are tied to being in that guild.
And how are you going to "abuse" this?
Do you plan on getting into a guild, start donating resources into the guild coffer, but after a while provoke a guild kick, and then try the same act on another guild with your Stronghold Vouchers again? What would be the point of doing that? You would only get your resources back in bound Stronghold Vouchers... nothing more, but also nothing less.
You get Guild Vouchers back and you get to keep your Guild Marks and what ever you bought from the guild store for Guild marks, etc etc etc.......
You want Guild Vouchers back then you should lose all your Guild marks in the process......
YOU HAVE ALREADY RECEIVED PAYMENT for your donations. and yes I can see a guild leader with a guild and a alt guild. Having people join the alt guild maxing their donations then kicking them and then inviting them to the Main Guild so they can continue to build 2 Guild Strongholds for the cost of one.
His solution would take all your contributions away from the guild that kicked you though. So it would just be shifting resources. Guild marks are irrelevant to the issue because they're pretty easy to obtain. The progress on your guilds stronghold is harder to obtain.
IMO there are problems with his suggestion but it's pretty ridiculous to imply that guild marks are in any way equivalent in value to what you contribute to your stronghold.
Value is relative you have already received payment for your donations whether or not they are equivalent to what was donated, the simple fact that he wants to be able to keep his guild marks, whatever he bought with guild marks, and get his donations back if by chance he is kicked either with or without cause. Guilds are DICTATORSHIPS, either benevolent or not that is how they are designed, to try and change the system to benefit the Player is a step backwards, Change the system to protect the Guild not the Guild leader or individual.
The Guild is the Goal in Strongholds, that is what this is all about eventually.
You're basically trying to say that all of the terrible parts of the guild system justify themselves because reasons.
Guilds are supposed to be a system that allows players to work together more easily to finish content. They are inherently supposed to benefit players first and foremost. Strongholds wasn't about guilds. It was about giving players incentives to join guilds. This whole thread makes it pretty clear that there are issues with strongholds that actually discourage players from joining guilds.
And again, guild marks are relatively worthless. If it refunded your dragon fangs along with your vouchers than no one would really have any problem giving up guild marks or their gear.
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Well, i would add to my idea, that you won't get any marks from those refunded Stronghold Vouchers, but other then that... players would at least have the certainty, that the resources they donate are not lost completly, when they get kicked out of a guild.
The issue with getting refunded is....How does the game distinguish with someone getting Kick'd for Good reasons and someone for No reason. :*
The OP's scenario (and other variants of it) have happened in other MMOs before. Yes, it's horrible. But this is not some new phenomenon. Outside of implementing a leadership security system to address the problem with guild takeovers/mutinies (they can simply import the one from Star Trek), there aren't any real reasons why the developers would implement any of these other suggestions.
Eh. The whole problem is the reliance on guild leadership. Strongholds require too many resources to have your progress tied to the will of a few people that could go off the deep end at any time. I mean imagine if something like the OP's story happens to someone with a rank 20 stronghold. That would probably be over a year of work down the drain. No matter how many security measures they implement something bad will happen and support will not do jack about it.
That's true, they won't, IF what happens doesn't violate the TOS. I'm sure Cryptic wouldn't characterize it by saying that things are WAI, but these are simply actions that guild leaders are allowed to take because they were designed to allow them. Therefore, it's incumbent on the individual to be aware of what they are doing when they join a guild. Everyone's allowed to join or leave a guild as they so choose. Something feel fishy about leadership? Then just don't donate.
I can only compare this game to the other Cryptic MMO that I play (Star Trek), and I can tell you that if this new reality bothers you, then expect to be bothered by SH and various guild leaders from here on out.
The OP's scenario (and other variants of it) have happened in other MMOs before. Yes, it's horrible. But this is not some new phenomenon. Outside of implementing a leadership security system to address the problem with guild takeovers/mutinies (they can simply import the one from Star Trek), there aren't any real reasons why the developers would implement any of these other suggestions.
Eh. The whole problem is the reliance on guild leadership. Strongholds require too many resources to have your progress tied to the will of a few people that could go off the deep end at any time. I mean imagine if something like the OP's story happens to someone with a rank 20 stronghold. That would probably be over a year of work down the drain. No matter how many security measures they implement something bad will happen and support will not do jack about it.
That's true, they won't, IF what happens doesn't violate the TOS. I'm sure Cryptic wouldn't characterize it by saying that things are WAI, but these are simply actions that guild leaders are allowed to take because they were designed to allow them. Therefore, it's incumbent on the individual to be aware of what they are doing when they join a guild. Everyone's allowed to join or leave a guild as they so choose. Something feel fishy about leadership? Then just don't donate.
I can only compare this game to the other Cryptic MMO that I play (Star Trek), and I can tell you that if this new reality bothers you, then expect to be bothered by SH and various guild leaders from here on out.
If you don't donate you will get booted before you can blink twice.
I still don't understand why people keep saying that guilds were designed with the intent that leaders be able to do stuff like this. If that's true it just means that guilds were poorly designed.
Comments
Whether it's a sold account, or a hacked account, or someone going postal... it's too easy, and too difficult to undo- maybe even impossible. Tickets can be filled out, MAYBE you get some GM assistance, but what if the guild bank is in shambles by then? Or buildings demolished? Would the GMs really replace everything? Or would that be countless more tickets made each with an increasing chance of never being answered?
It's just sad, thinking about the allied guild that's going through this (mentioned in my earlier post) puts a pit in my stomach. I mean it's still there and the situation isn't a self-destructive one, but ownership of the guild has been completely stolen over something like a friggin instance cap not letting someone do a Dragonflight run. Something so simple can completely undo months or years of collaborative work because there's just no defense against it... it's a shame.
Have you speak with the support what's the following of the story?
The only thing that would help at this point, is asking the Devs to tie guild donations to an account, if a player gets kicked from a guild, the donations go with him.
It might also help, if a CM could pass this along to a Dev, so that we might hear something official about this issue...
But if the leader has sold his account they may give the guild back maybe?
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Or maybe ask the Devs, what they can do to help?
Strongholds are a main part of the game now, so i think it would be good to come up with an plan of action, before this might turn into some kind of "bussiness idea":
Letting other players do the building/upgrading for Stronghold, but then sell the leader account for real money.
With this in mind, I quite like the idea of binding contributions to characters or player accounts. Guild Marks work this way. If you leave a guild or are kicked, your Guild Marks move with you, they cannot be used while you have no guild, but once you join up again elsewhere, your Guild Marks re-appear in your inventory.
I have personal experience with this. I was in a guild pre-stronghold, and left shortly after the beginning of Mod 7 due to leadership displaying bad behavior and throwing tantrums. I landed with another large and prominent guild immediately, and was given the boot after several weeks for missing a couple of days due to a family member's medical crisis. While I hold no grudge, the guild leader acted pretty poorly in this regard, as I did everything within published guild rules/guidelines in my absence, and there was no communication or inquiry prior to my ejection.
Having finally landed in a guild with a great crew, and one which seems a perfect fit for me, I am very glad my Guild Marks traveled with me. I worked hard for them, and want to be able to use them. Now...I don't know that it would have been fair for loot from my first guild's coffer to travel with me. After all, I decided to leave, and I could have stayed. They have a very loyal member base who gladly tolerate the leadership's quirks, and even seem to enjoy it. Not my cup of tea. No harm, no foul. But the guild which kicked me...I busted my rear for a month or so to stuff their coffers, get boons, build everything up, etc. Donated lots of AD, gold and campaign currency which I will never see again. I would have no problem with the fruits of my efforts following me to my new guild where I am happy and plan to stay for the long-term. After being kicked for little to no cause, I believe that this would be fair. I would rather that my hard work benefit my current guild rather than staying with one which unceremoniously gave me the boot and kept my goods.
If coffer loot followed players who were kicked but not those who leave voluntarily, it would incentivize leadership to keep a stable and happy membership. It would not encourage guild-hopping, as players would not take loot with them if they left voluntarily. Further, it might even help to diminish turnover in general. I would imagine that leadership would vet players more carefully, perhaps even having prospects run with the guild for a while before giving an invite, as no leader would wish to kick players repeatedly and watch coffer balances go up and down based on an unstable member base.
I believe that accounts of guild leaders would not be viable for sale if this were implemented, as any leader who booted his membership in order to sell the guild account would be selling a gutted stronghold. Only if the guild bank were stuffed to the gills with high-value goods would there be any level of interest in acquiring a guild after members were kicked taking their loot from the coffer with them. Or if the bulk of the guild stayed on and were complicit in the sale...not likely.
I would imagine that this might be difficult to implement, as it would require tracking player contributions continually, even after they enter the coffer. Maybe all contributions could simply bind to the player when they enter the coffer, but be counted toward coffer totals for guild purposes? However, if feasible, this would go a long way toward eliminating some of the sketchy behavior which can be present in guilds with poor leadership.
I want to be better then so and so.
I want to spit out my IL in WoD for a zerg timer.
I want to stomp noobies in PvP.
Jump around a pack of AFKer on their new mount with a "look at me, look at me."
It's competitiveness that keeps MMOs alive, after end-game, they're all hamster on a wheel from my exp.
So it does not shock me at all when cooperation breaks down to either dysfunction or full-blown malfeasance.
SH's assumed too much trust in a context that works against trust; Strangers with variable backgrounds, cultures, and ethics, no tangible consequences, permanent anonymity, etc.
Again, some Dev feedback on this issue would really be helpfull.
- Do they see the issue at hand?
- Are there plans on doing something about it?
- When will they be able to patch a solution?
No matter how many security measures they implement something bad will happen and support will not do jack about it.
If a guild leader/officier decides to kick players from the guild and then sell that guild for real money, there is nothing any player can do against it.
But if the guild donations are tied to the player account, a guild leader/officier has to think twice about kicking players just for fun.
Q: So, what do you get right now, when you put time and/or money into your guild, and you get kicked from the guild?
A: You get nothing.
The important guild benefits are tied to being in that guild.
And how are you going to "abuse" this?
Do you plan on getting into a guild, start donating resources into the guild coffer, but after a while provoke a guild kick, and then try the same act on another guild with your Stronghold Vouchers again?
What would be the point of doing that?
You would only get your resources back in bound Stronghold Vouchers... nothing more, but also nothing less.
IMO there are problems with his suggestion but it's pretty ridiculous to imply that guild marks are in any way equivalent in value to what you contribute to your stronghold.
Guilds are supposed to be a system that allows players to work together more easily to finish content. They are inherently supposed to benefit players first and foremost. Strongholds wasn't about guilds. It was about giving players incentives to join guilds. This whole thread makes it pretty clear that there are issues with strongholds that actually discourage players from joining guilds.
And again, guild marks are relatively worthless. If it refunded your dragon fangs along with your vouchers than no one would really have any problem giving up guild marks or their gear.
In short in suggests a player credit system that follows the player. You can check it out here:
arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1206089/suggestion-for-making-guilds-fairer-come-mod-7
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I can only compare this game to the other Cryptic MMO that I play (Star Trek), and I can tell you that if this new reality bothers you, then expect to be bothered by SH and various guild leaders from here on out.
I still don't understand why people keep saying that guilds were designed with the intent that leaders be able to do stuff like this. If that's true it just means that guilds were poorly designed.