I have two questions/concerns mainly: 1) WHY is there such an arbitrary cap like 40 for the Guild SH? I know WOD and other instances can go a fair bit above the cap if you try joining with a party member in the instance, seriously SH is huge there should be no reason to not up it to 60 or even the potential 80 for a 'perfect' Dragonflight.
Wut. If there are 40 people in an instance on WoD even if you're in a party you can't join on the party leader.
Something similar seems to happen to a guild I've only recently joined, for a few days we were under the impression that the leaders account had been compromised. It's been cleared up as a misunderstanding through lack of communication, but the fear and the stir it caused highlights what a serious concern this can be for guild members.
Strongholds are awesome, but it gives value to a guild now. You need a high ranking guild for additional boons and for the latest 'top' armor sets. Give anything value and someone will figure out a way to achieve and exploit it.
Alot of it comes down to trust. Do you trust your guild leader to be honest and put the good of the whole guild ahead of personal greed? And do you trust them to keep their account secure enough to prevent attempts to access it and screw with the guild?
Small to medium guilds seem to have this probem less because they're not as advanced in stronghold and having less members means a smaller group to socialise with and get to known which in essence is how we build trust and faith. Large guilds can be like this, but more often than not, especially lately with so many people searching for the advanced SH guilds, this isn't as likely.
I don't think theres any real way around this if its the leader being greedy or selling up, but in terms of compromised accounts or abuse - pin numbers. Almost every single game these days uses additonal passwords and pins to secure accounts. We have arcs cryptic guard thingy which is great, but a nuisance for those on rotating IP's or using multiple devices, so people disable or opt out of using it. But an in game pin would be useful, so before someone trades, sells, discards or buys something, they need to enter their pin. Similar idea for guilds, if someone is trying to kick someone, demote them or change permisions they could be asked for a pin to verify the decision.
I have two questions/concerns mainly: 1) WHY is there such an arbitrary cap like 40 for the Guild SH? I know WOD and other instances can go a fair bit above the cap if you try joining with a party member in the instance, seriously SH is huge there should be no reason to not up it to 60 or even the potential 80 for a 'perfect' Dragonflight.
Wut. If there are 40 people in an instance on WoD even if you're in a party you can't join on the party leader.
That is incorrect- it will read 40 but there is an 'overflow' allowance if you join in on another party member. I've joined enough 40 people instances to know this personally, let alone people saying it all the time.
Neverdeth and other Dragon areas have the same function, it's how some people get into full instances to kill the dragons.
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
First if all, I apologize that I kinda laughed at your 'guild drama', didn't realize how messy that affair is.
To the point:
1. I would say getting to know the guild & leaders before making large contributions. A lot of guilds use custom channels and will encourage (at least used to) you to join that before leaving your old guild or joining or anything.
I think smaller guilds have the advantage in this case of trust and judgment , a guildie using my r11 azures to level and I don't have a shred of doubt that unless he will get hacked/banned or something he will return them to me.
Same goes for the rest of my guild members.
No matter what what checks will be implemented a guild leader/ leaders that will want to sell/scam or whatever will be able to do so, with enough planning and patience.
2. The compromised account thing is an issue, I would suggest a military lunch codes like system. A page with all guild permissions and a check-box to enable this system for each, removing this checkbox or making the action of the enabled permission will require a confirmation by an additional member / members.
The amounts of confirmation needed can be automatically required by the guild size, for every 30 accounts additional "key" needed. So for a full 150 guild 4 additional confirmations needed except the one initiated the action.
So for example, the system is enabled, guild leaders are prompted to add members to the list of 'key' holders. (And allowed to remove bellow the minimum if the guild shrinks). Next he sets the 'kick member' permission as key enabled. Now to remove a player or to disable this feature on kicking it has to be confirmed by N/30-1 members from that list.
I hope it's somewhat understandable, and for easier implementation instead of player list Rank 6 can be used for this.
I think it can work as a compromise between full democracy and 0 limits.
Quick update on the situation: I think there is some sort of odd relationship between the original guild leader and this new leader he invited and promoted a couple of weeks ago. We caught them having RP ... intercourse? I'm not even sure what to make of it at this point, our guild leader NEVER RPed before, EVER. This is SO unlike him... Perhaps he did sell his account, this guy would NEVER rp. He was the "manly" stereotype, a little bit sexist, probably an alcoholic of sorts... not an RPer.
Rank 7 is Guild Leader status, yeah, should have a lot of privileges, but when it comes to dealing with other Rank 7's there has to be some kind of check in place...
As a fleet leader in another Cryptic MMO, Star Trek Online, I knew with the release of Strongholds that it was only a matter of time that the usual shenanigans related to guilds/fleets/whatever would eventually occur here. With STO, they introduced the fleet Starbase (their version of a Stronghold) over three years ago. Back then, we saw the same problems that we're seeing now in Neverwinter. It took about a year, but Cryptic addressed the Fleet/Guild Leader security issue with this patch.
My guess is that we'll see a similar system make it's way here at some point.
But as stated in that STO dev blog: "Ultimately, this system works best with a Fleet that has three Fleet Leaders or more."
One thing that should always be clear: if your guild has only ONE guild leader, you should always be cognizant that this person is the defacto KING of said guild. If he/she is a beneficent one, then all the realms will rejoice. If not, then don't be surprised if your King turns dictator at some point, or as the OP contends, turns into somebody completely different. Either way, the choice for which guild one decides to join is solely up to them, and with it come the benefits and/or consequences.
Rank 7 is Guild Leader status, yeah, should have a lot of privileges, but when it comes to dealing with other Rank 7's there has to be some kind of check in place...
As a fleet leader in another Cryptic MMO, Star Trek Online, I knew with the release of Strongholds that it was only a matter of time that the usual shenanigans related to guilds/fleets/whatever would eventually occur here. With STO, they introduced the fleet Starbase (their version of a Stronghold) over three years ago. Back then, we saw the same problems that we're seeing now in Neverwinter. It took about a year, but Cryptic addressed the Fleet/Guild Leader security issue with this patch.
My guess is that we'll see a similar system make it's way here at some point.
But as stated in that STO dev blog: "Ultimately, this system works best with a Fleet that has three Fleet Leaders or more."
One thing that should always be clear: if your guild has only ONE guild leader, you should always be cognizant that this person is the defacto KING of said guild. If he/she is a beneficent one, then all the realms will rejoice. If not, then don't be surprised if your King turns dictator at some point, or as the OP contends, turns into somebody completely different. Either way, the choice for which guild one decides to join is solely up to them, and with it come the benefits and/or consequences.
ok so cryptic doesnt care if you get kicked or lose all your money etc. ok i see now....
We have a lot of founders and guild leaders in CA... A LOT... so no one person can dissolve anything. We in fact seem to have quite a few checks and balances in place to keep this kind of HAMSTER from happening. There are way to implement these tools into an existing guild... to insure a deeper feeling of security.
It's true in CA we have 4 active rank 7s who have been friends for years and we make decisions for the guild as a matter of consensus among us. The system is good and the guild is drama-free, but the fact is that a guild leader does indeed have the power to destroy a guild and there are certainly people out there who spend a great deal of time trying to figure out how to take advantage of this. A few examples we have had to deal with in the past:
Stolen/compromised Accounts: Prior to Strongholds an inactive guild founder's account was compromised. Whoever hacked it managed to loot our guild bank. Once we realized what had happened we demoted him and removed bank access and eventually removed him from the guild after determining the account was compromised.
Imposters: We have on more than one occasion had someone join the guild and then PM a guild leader claiming to be a new alt of an existing guild leader. As our guild leaders are long time friends, this has resulted each time in that person being kicked instantly as they are unable to pass themselves off as the guild leader they were pretending to be. Most of these incidentally were making these requests from Protector's Enclave right outside of the guild bank.
As for just how much damage can one guild leader do? On preview when testing Strongholds we managed to find a bug that kept us from being able to build a farm and thus, progress any further with our stronghold. After making out a bug report, I demoted all the guild leaders, then kicked every member and left the guild myself, disbanding it. Then with the help of a few guild members I formed a new guild on preview and re-invited everyone so we could continue to test. But it was frighteningly easy to destroy the guild, just a few clicks of the mouse.
As a guild leader I am not sure there is a really good answer here to this problem. Guild leaders do need a certain amount of power to kick people when drama occurs. It's rare I have had to kick people from CA, but it's happened before when members were disruptive, rude, bigoted or whatever. We have also kicked people who are inactive and we are reasonably confident they are not returning to the game. Personally I can't see any system of checks and balances working in an organization as informal as a guild. Have all the officers agree to kick/demote someone? What if an officer doesn't log in for a week while someone is selling stuff out of your guild bank? Guilds were designed as a social structure and not really a secure investment. Trying to make them into one is not likely to be an easy task.
As a last thought for the OP, the old guild leader by taking suck actions against you and other productive and contributing members isn't just hurting you - he's also hurting the guild and the new owner. Sure, the guild made it to rank 8, but who is going to keep contributing if they all think they could be the next kicked?
As mentioned before... + a player gets kicked out of a guild, he gets his donations back in Stronghold Vouchers, + the former guild gets a certain timeframe to replenish the loss, or the Stronghold benefits will stop working, + the loss would be set as main "contribution target", and when it's done, the guild could continue to build/upgrade again normally on their Stronghold.
With such a feature in place, the kicked players in this case could at least form a new guild together, and rebuild a Stronghold with their vouchers again.
Post edited by regenerde on
I do believe in killing the messenger...
Want to know why?
Because it sends a message!
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drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
We have a lot of founders and guild leaders in CA... A LOT... so no one person can dissolve anything. We in fact seem to have quite a few checks and balances in place to keep this kind of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> from happening. There are way to implement these tools into an existing guild... to insure a deeper feeling of security.
If any of you feel that you can no longer trust anyone... there are trustworthy people out in NW. There are Guilds with scruples and who will only look for an effort towards making the guild stronger... and not ask for a kick-back for being in the guild or considering an application. They may be smaller guilds... but with new blood comes new abilities and new possibilities.
I saw this all pan out in Legit... last night... that some players would stoop to this level makes me sick. I am sorry for the drama @katamaster81899 deeply sorry for your loss.
To think that your form of government is the only good one it's arrogant at best. Tipically american.
First time death penalty was abolished: 1786-Tuscany (dictatorship)
Worst mass murder: 1945-Japan (democracy)
Most polluting country (destroyer of all mankind/animal kingdom/plant kingdom): U.S.A. (democracy)
Fascism and Nazism were born in two democratic states, etc.
Even actual China isn't led by an actual leader but a moltitude of people... and it isn't enlightned at all as it seems.
Iran is a republic, etc. Should I continue?
The game already give you the possibility to make all guild members guild leaders, if you want that just join a guild that allow that or build a new one by yourself. I want to see how it will last.
Avoid to transform Neverwinter in a Lybian mess. If they are going to trash even my guild with this nonsense I will leave this place for greener places.
P.S.: Lord Neverwinter is the Lord of Neverwinter. Think on it, eventually.
P.P.S.: I quoted you but it's a reply to schweifer too.
I never said that all of the highest level members are active. In fact most of them are not active...
My personal belief is this... Individual autonomy, or anarchy, is the ONLY political system I believe in. Most people do not have the ability to live like this.
Anarchy- 2. absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.
Every individual is responsible for 100% for their actions. Living in harmony with the others in your community. Adding to the point why I will never leave the guild I am in.
Civil- 2. courteous and polite.
I agree 100% that most Democratic societies have HUGE problems... that is because they tend to get too big. Democracy is best used in small tribal organizations... usually headed by a group of elders. Trust me... I know ALL of the issues that are wrong with the world... but that is one of the reasons that I play fantasy games.
No government is perfect... it is meant to control the masses. The word in itself tells you it's objective... I believe it stems from ancient Greek... it means "Control Minds". I can speak hours on politics... but this thread is not about politics.
This thread was about one <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> deciding the fate of the people who assumed that they had a safe haven.
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
Leadership Council of Civil Anarchy
SYNERGY Alliance
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
About login security, isn't ARC defender supposed to send a confirmation mail every time you log in from a different location? If someone tried to log in with my account (even if he had password and login) from a different IP I'm pretty sure I'd receive the mail with the pin code to actually proceed.
SH =/= Modern Western corporation SH =/= Western society with freedom of speech SH =/= State of law in Western meaning which protects its citizens
=/= means "not equal".
Why is that?
1. In Western countries, especially in UK and EU there is one fundamental law of protection of private property. The game is resided in feudalism or even slavery stage of human development, so it could explain why NW doesn't have such law.
In North Korea person existence means nothing, period. Person doesn't even owns own life, can be executed, imprisoned, sentenced to years or for lifetime to work in labor camp.
Another place where private property term can be loosely treated are Post-Soviet countries (except Baltic states). Wealth redistribution was developed to perfection there.
2. Socialism/Communism/(insert special movement) groups claim that everyone is equal, everyone owns everything, everyone contributes to some greater good. In reality though, people live with promises and small elite group benefits most of it.
No one forces anyone to stay. Everyone part of big family. Everyone manages to donate in time.
3. In corporation sides have written contract and with premise of being paid. Person can be fired for number of reasons. But some reasons work against like harassment.
Unbelieveable. Sorry to hear that. The more big guilds develop, the more I hear about crazy HAMSTER stories of leaders going completely mental or abusing their power, forcing players to donate/contribute unreasonable amount of resources (unfairly and undivided) and kicking people over it. I mean, being strict with demands is one thing, being a tyrant and abusing the rank by kicking people for no reason is another thing. Time to look for a new guild, do some homework, ask around and find a home you trust, don't lose hope, I truly believe what happened to you is rare and a minority.
checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
As a guild officer, this is a very strange phenomenon. I will not stoop to speculate on your former guild leader's motives.
I can tell you that there are quite a few honorable guilds run out there, with solid leadership, who run their guilds within the philosophy they were created. I am friends with quite a few guild leaders, and we commisserate with you.
The Guild Recruitment forum is an excellent place to browse guilds in Neverwinter that have both history and progress proven. I would not give up hope because of one person's actions.
Got to reiterate the best "solution" would be a counter-check method, not only would it help some with a massive inherent fault in the SH design, it would solve a on going massive fault in guild structures.
Have a counter-check on any action that a GL can do to other players IF there are officer level players, this allows the GL and players that prefer a "benevolent Dictator" model to still have that model, no player is advanced to the highest officer slot? No check on the GL actions is triggered.
For those that don't like the benevolent dictator model of guild, they can go with the more republic model, that there are 1 or more top officers that are trusted by the members. If there is some case of the GL being hacked or going loopy, then there is a counter-check on their actions, the top officer must concur to his actions for it to take effect. This would protect the members as a whole from some drastic change taking place and add a second account cushion from some account being hacked etc.
For those that like a total representative model, have it take 2 or more top officers to enact some change, everyone at top tier officer lvl is a "vote" for control, if the GL goes psycho(or hacked) 2 officers can "coup" the GL and replace him for a time. This would preclude your more volatile leader, he has to at a minimum keep his officers happy or he can be replaced.
All of this should have a 30 day window exclusion, if the officers aren't active for 30 days, then the GL's actions take effect without the officers. If the officers act and the GL is inactive then their actions take effect. This 30 day window allows either the other guild members to get their GL/officers contacted in RL and on to fix things, or to petition support/GM for redress.
As to the guild vs. SH. The whole system has a basic flaw, but you can't be having contributions being retroactively being redrawn, you can't have "refunds" as people take their ball and go home in a huff. You can't have boons following players as they go "solo" wither parting in good terms or in anger. What is put in to the guilds SH is called a "donation" for a reason, it's not dubbed a "loan". You don't drop a fiver in the salvation army kettle and then ask for change, you either give the fiver and feel comfortable about it or you don't, if you don't feel you can give five, then go get change and give what you DO feel you can feel fine with.
Yes, someone can "rip you off" of the contributions in time/effort/resources you put into a SH, but that's the basis in how you entered the premise. If you don't trust your guild and it's leaders you have THAT problem not a SH problem. The guild structuring problems need addressing not the way donations work on SH. If you can't donate your effort/time/materials towards a guild goal for SH, then DON'T. Make your contribution and wipe your hands of it, it's "spent".
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Well as a non officer in Holy Crusaders, I can tell you , nothing is requested that isn't evenly divided, you are ALWAYS welcome to give more and many have.
Latest example was AD, it was split on the active accounts and we all had to donate the same.
However, officers and leaders alike have given WAY above those levels many times, MANY times. Leadership by example is always good. Guild Leaders who ask for equal share divided, but also donate more then that, should be congratulated..
This guild has offered a way for many of us to get a market place, guild armors, wards, and boons, while having a slightly more then casual experience (i personally do not think its all that hard to meet their requirements.. ) but it culls out those who dont want to at least participate regularly. I didnt want just a super casual guild, I wanted one where people mostly logged on every day, helped and ran things, but are not so crazy as to expect everyone to have r12s and all trans everything on every alt.
Its a good place for many of us! I know it might not be everyone, but its a good guild for people with lots of good folks.
But in the end, you get out of a guild what you put into it, if you work well , do runs, donate, and dont be a jerk, you will usually be welcomed by most guilds.
Ive seen so many players in so many guilds in so MANY mmos who get into a guild and think they run it.. and then act surprised when they are let go.
RP intercourse...so you can NOT just leave us with that image dude. What exactly lead you to this conclusion? Audio - text - come on man, this is better than most dungeon runs. We need DETAILS.
Hmmm...not quite sure what to think about this. It's REAL money folks... for a game. It's not the stock market, although, many players treat it that way.
RP intercourse...so you can NOT just leave us with that image dude. What exactly lead you to this conclusion? Audio - text - come on man, this is better than most dungeon runs. We need DETAILS.
Well, it looks like I've uncovered even more fun info!
Today, the original leader sent out a guild mail. Him and this new mystery leader have suddenly developed a "Long - Distance relationship". Is it me, or does this sound like a grand scheme for this new "girlfriend" to hijack the guild?
RP intercourse...so you can NOT just leave us with that image dude. What exactly lead you to this conclusion? Audio - text - come on man, this is better than most dungeon runs. We need DETAILS.
lol.
I hope it was something hilarious like him asking her to refine his flaming greatsword.
There is no way to fix the basic problem. And I am sure that the Game Logs don't store all donations for ever. This is most likely just for a couple of days. So you can't get your donations back.
The solution for you is: You old guild is not the only one that leveled up and there are more guilds outside that reached a few higher boons. Find yourself a new guild. Maybe a guild that don't has so strict donation rules. I would prefer a guild with a group of adult leaders that know each other in RL. This should reduce the basic risk, but the risk is always there.
My fellow kicked friends and I have decided to find a new guild that can take us all in, we are officially giving up any chance at retaking/rejoining our old guild. However, this does not change the fact that this is a problem that desperately needs to be addressed.
RP intercourse...so you can NOT just leave us with that image dude. What exactly lead you to this conclusion? Audio - text - come on man, this is better than most dungeon runs. We need DETAILS.
Well, it looks like I've uncovered even more fun info!
Today, the original leader sent out a guild mail. Him and this new mystery leader have suddenly developed a "Long - Distance relationship". Is it me, or does this sound like a grand scheme for this new "girlfriend" to hijack the guild?
Comments
Strongholds are awesome, but it gives value to a guild now. You need a high ranking guild for additional boons and for the latest 'top' armor sets. Give anything value and someone will figure out a way to achieve and exploit it.
Alot of it comes down to trust. Do you trust your guild leader to be honest and put the good of the whole guild ahead of personal greed? And do you trust them to keep their account secure enough to prevent attempts to access it and screw with the guild?
Small to medium guilds seem to have this probem less because they're not as advanced in stronghold and having less members means a smaller group to socialise with and get to known which in essence is how we build trust and faith. Large guilds can be like this, but more often than not, especially lately with so many people searching for the advanced SH guilds, this isn't as likely.
I don't think theres any real way around this if its the leader being greedy or selling up, but in terms of compromised accounts or abuse - pin numbers. Almost every single game these days uses additonal passwords and pins to secure accounts. We have arcs cryptic guard thingy which is great, but a nuisance for those on rotating IP's or using multiple devices, so people disable or opt out of using it. But an in game pin would be useful, so before someone trades, sells, discards or buys something, they need to enter their pin. Similar idea for guilds, if someone is trying to kick someone, demote them or change permisions they could be asked for a pin to verify the decision.
Just an idea.
Neverdeth and other Dragon areas have the same function, it's how some people get into full instances to kill the dragons.
To the point:
1. I would say getting to know the guild & leaders before making large contributions.
A lot of guilds use custom channels and will encourage (at least used to) you to join that before leaving your old guild or joining or anything.
I think smaller guilds have the advantage in this case of trust and judgment , a guildie using my r11 azures to level and I don't have a shred of doubt that unless he will get hacked/banned or something he will return them to me.
Same goes for the rest of my guild members.
No matter what what checks will be implemented a guild leader/ leaders that will want to sell/scam or whatever will be able to do so, with enough planning and patience.
2. The compromised account thing is an issue, I would suggest a military lunch codes like system.
A page with all guild permissions and a check-box to enable this system for each, removing this checkbox or making the action of the enabled permission will require a confirmation by an additional member / members.
The amounts of confirmation needed can be automatically required by the guild size, for every 30 accounts additional "key" needed. So for a full 150 guild 4 additional confirmations needed except the one initiated the action.
So for example, the system is enabled, guild leaders are prompted to add members to the list of 'key' holders.
(And allowed to remove bellow the minimum if the guild shrinks).
Next he sets the 'kick member' permission as key enabled. Now to remove a player or to disable this feature on kicking it has to be confirmed by N/30-1 members from that list.
I hope it's somewhat understandable, and for easier implementation instead of player list Rank 6 can be used for this.
I think it can work as a compromise between full democracy and 0 limits.
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*insert something about how sad it is that had to be explained on a forum for a D&D related game*
My guess is that we'll see a similar system make it's way here at some point.
But as stated in that STO dev blog: "Ultimately, this system works best with a Fleet that has three Fleet Leaders or more."
One thing that should always be clear: if your guild has only ONE guild leader, you should always be cognizant that this person is the defacto KING of said guild. If he/she is a beneficent one, then all the realms will rejoice. If not, then don't be surprised if your King turns dictator at some point, or as the OP contends, turns into somebody completely different. Either way, the choice for which guild one decides to join is solely up to them, and with it come the benefits and/or consequences.
Stolen/compromised Accounts: Prior to Strongholds an inactive guild founder's account was compromised. Whoever hacked it managed to loot our guild bank. Once we realized what had happened we demoted him and removed bank access and eventually removed him from the guild after determining the account was compromised.
Imposters: We have on more than one occasion had someone join the guild and then PM a guild leader claiming to be a new alt of an existing guild leader. As our guild leaders are long time friends, this has resulted each time in that person being kicked instantly as they are unable to pass themselves off as the guild leader they were pretending to be. Most of these incidentally were making these requests from Protector's Enclave right outside of the guild bank.
As for just how much damage can one guild leader do? On preview when testing Strongholds we managed to find a bug that kept us from being able to build a farm and thus, progress any further with our stronghold. After making out a bug report, I demoted all the guild leaders, then kicked every member and left the guild myself, disbanding it. Then with the help of a few guild members I formed a new guild on preview and re-invited everyone so we could continue to test. But it was frighteningly easy to destroy the guild, just a few clicks of the mouse.
As a guild leader I am not sure there is a really good answer here to this problem. Guild leaders do need a certain amount of power to kick people when drama occurs. It's rare I have had to kick people from CA, but it's happened before when members were disruptive, rude, bigoted or whatever. We have also kicked people who are inactive and we are reasonably confident they are not returning to the game. Personally I can't see any system of checks and balances working in an organization as informal as a guild. Have all the officers agree to kick/demote someone? What if an officer doesn't log in for a week while someone is selling stuff out of your guild bank? Guilds were designed as a social structure and not really a secure investment. Trying to make them into one is not likely to be an easy task.
As a last thought for the OP, the old guild leader by taking suck actions against you and other productive and contributing members isn't just hurting you - he's also hurting the guild and the new owner. Sure, the guild made it to rank 8, but who is going to keep contributing if they all think they could be the next kicked?
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
+ a player gets kicked out of a guild, he gets his donations back in Stronghold Vouchers,
+ the former guild gets a certain timeframe to replenish the loss, or the Stronghold benefits will stop working,
+ the loss would be set as main "contribution target", and when it's done, the guild could continue to build/upgrade again normally on their Stronghold.
With such a feature in place, the kicked players in this case could at least form a new guild together, and rebuild a Stronghold with their vouchers again.
I never said that all of the highest level members are active. In fact most of them are not active...
My personal belief is this... Individual autonomy, or anarchy, is the ONLY political system I believe in. Most people do not have the ability to live like this.
Anarchy- 2. absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.
Every individual is responsible for 100% for their actions. Living in harmony with the others in your community. Adding to the point why I will never leave the guild I am in.
Civil- 2. courteous and polite.
I agree 100% that most Democratic societies have HUGE problems... that is because they tend to get too big. Democracy is best used in small tribal organizations... usually headed by a group of elders. Trust me... I know ALL of the issues that are wrong with the world... but that is one of the reasons that I play fantasy games.
No government is perfect... it is meant to control the masses. The word in itself tells you it's objective... I believe it stems from ancient Greek... it means "Control Minds". I can speak hours on politics... but this thread is not about politics.
This thread was about one <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> deciding the fate of the people who assumed that they had a safe haven.
TLDR:
SH =/= Modern Western corporation
SH =/= Western society with freedom of speech
SH =/= State of law in Western meaning which protects its citizens
=/= means "not equal".
Why is that?
1. In Western countries, especially in UK and EU there is one fundamental law of protection of private property. The game is resided in feudalism or even slavery stage of human development, so it could explain why NW doesn't have such law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_law
In North Korea person existence means nothing, period. Person doesn't even owns own life, can be executed, imprisoned, sentenced to years or for lifetime to work in labor camp.
Another place where private property term can be loosely treated are Post-Soviet countries (except Baltic states). Wealth redistribution was developed to perfection there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukos_shareholders_vs._Russia
2. Socialism/Communism/(insert special movement) groups claim that everyone is equal, everyone owns everything, everyone contributes to some greater good. In reality though, people live with promises and small elite group benefits most of it.
No one forces anyone to stay. Everyone part of big family. Everyone manages to donate in time.
3. In corporation sides have written contract and with premise of being paid. Person can be fired for number of reasons.
But some reasons work against like harassment.
Do you want to keep this bonus or not?
— (The unwritten rule)
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
I can tell you that there are quite a few honorable guilds run out there, with solid leadership, who run their guilds within the philosophy they were created. I am friends with quite a few guild leaders, and we commisserate with you.
The Guild Recruitment forum is an excellent place to browse guilds in Neverwinter that have both history and progress proven. I would not give up hope because of one person's actions.
BLUNTFORCE TRAUMA
Officer of Myrmidons
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
Have a counter-check on any action that a GL can do to other players IF there are officer level players, this allows the GL and players that prefer a "benevolent Dictator" model to still have that model, no player is advanced to the highest officer slot? No check on the GL actions is triggered.
For those that don't like the benevolent dictator model of guild, they can go with the more republic model, that there are 1 or more top officers that are trusted by the members. If there is some case of the GL being hacked or going loopy, then there is a counter-check on their actions, the top officer must concur to his actions for it to take effect. This would protect the members as a whole from some drastic change taking place and add a second account cushion from some account being hacked etc.
For those that like a total representative model, have it take 2 or more top officers to enact some change, everyone at top tier officer lvl is a "vote" for control, if the GL goes psycho(or hacked) 2 officers can "coup" the GL and replace him for a time. This would preclude your more volatile leader, he has to at a minimum keep his officers happy or he can be replaced.
All of this should have a 30 day window exclusion, if the officers aren't active for 30 days, then the GL's actions take effect without the officers. If the officers act and the GL is inactive then their actions take effect. This 30 day window allows either the other guild members to get their GL/officers contacted in RL and on to fix things, or to petition support/GM for redress.
As to the guild vs. SH. The whole system has a basic flaw, but you can't be having contributions being retroactively being redrawn, you can't have "refunds" as people take their ball and go home in a huff. You can't have boons following players as they go "solo" wither parting in good terms or in anger. What is put in to the guilds SH is called a "donation" for a reason, it's not dubbed a "loan". You don't drop a fiver in the salvation army kettle and then ask for change, you either give the fiver and feel comfortable about it or you don't, if you don't feel you can give five, then go get change and give what you DO feel you can feel fine with.
Yes, someone can "rip you off" of the contributions in time/effort/resources you put into a SH, but that's the basis in how you entered the premise. If you don't trust your guild and it's leaders you have THAT problem not a SH problem. The guild structuring problems need addressing not the way donations work on SH. If you can't donate your effort/time/materials towards a guild goal for SH, then DON'T. Make your contribution and wipe your hands of it, it's "spent".
Latest example was AD, it was split on the active accounts and we all had to donate the same.
However, officers and leaders alike have given WAY above those levels many times, MANY times. Leadership by example is always good. Guild Leaders who ask for equal share divided, but also donate more then that, should be congratulated..
This guild has offered a way for many of us to get a market place, guild armors, wards, and boons, while having a slightly more then casual experience (i personally do not think its all that hard to meet their requirements.. ) but it culls out those who dont want to at least participate regularly. I didnt want just a super casual guild, I wanted one where people mostly logged on every day, helped and ran things, but are not so crazy as to expect everyone to have r12s and all trans everything on every alt.
Its a good place for many of us! I know it might not be everyone, but its a good guild for people with lots of good folks.
But in the end, you get out of a guild what you put into it, if you work well , do runs, donate, and dont be a jerk, you will usually be welcomed by most guilds.
Ive seen so many players in so many guilds in so MANY mmos who get into a guild and think they run it.. and then act surprised when they are let go.
at the very least boons should be permanent once applied.
and, this wouldn't be such a huge issue if they weren't so ridicOP
Well, it looks like I've uncovered even more fun info!
Today, the original leader sent out a guild mail. Him and this new mystery leader have suddenly developed a "Long - Distance relationship". Is it me, or does this sound like a grand scheme for this new "girlfriend" to hijack the guild?
|| Axios Guild Leader || Neverwinter Trade Forum Moderator || Infernal Paragons ||
Check out my foundry, titled "Akro's Gone Wacko", featuring our ex-CM Akromatik!: NW-DL8J7BY5T
Erza Moonstalker | Lara Moonstalker | Julie Marvell | Erza Moonhunter | Annie Hellangel | Jenn Moonstalker
Thaumaturge's Time To Shine: A Complete Guide
lol.
I hope it was something hilarious like him asking her to refine his flaming greatsword.
And I am sure that the Game Logs don't store all donations for ever. This is most likely just for a couple of days.
So you can't get your donations back.
The solution for you is: You old guild is not the only one that leveled up and there are more guilds outside that reached a few higher boons.
Find yourself a new guild. Maybe a guild that don't has so strict donation rules.
I would prefer a guild with a group of adult leaders that know each other in RL.
This should reduce the basic risk, but the risk is always there.
|| Axios Guild Leader || Neverwinter Trade Forum Moderator || Infernal Paragons ||
Check out my foundry, titled "Akro's Gone Wacko", featuring our ex-CM Akromatik!: NW-DL8J7BY5T
Erza Moonstalker | Lara Moonstalker | Julie Marvell | Erza Moonhunter | Annie Hellangel | Jenn Moonstalker
Thaumaturge's Time To Shine: A Complete Guide
Well, it looks like I've uncovered even more fun info!
Today, the original leader sent out a guild mail. Him and this new mystery leader have suddenly developed a "Long - Distance relationship". Is it me, or does this sound like a grand scheme for this new "girlfriend" to hijack the guild?
Sounds like you've been Yoko Ono'd