the point is simple, gwf are not made to have 100% of critical chance. some classes have differents ways to got that status, gwf no... the "imbalance" come to super gears. and that laz charater today is more expensive than a car.
now imagine if you nerf the guy that have only 30% of critical chance and no vorpal (that means 75%-90% of critical severity) based in a guy that have 100% of crtical chance and 175% of critical severity?
The idea on putting a 4 seconds not mitigable stun on takedown is stupid as it sounds. To me the only way you could ask for that is removing the cdr on it and halving your movement speed but ye, we dont even know how many of us will still play next week soooo who cares. My hr is dead thanks to a single overload slot, not much to say
a "main striker do so much damage is wrong... stun like a hell, no".
back to what matter:
just to give a personal testimony (hallelujah)
after the "2xrp" I a gf and a ranger of my guild went to ETOS. the lowest gear is mine, and i have lol set and a transcendent vorpal.
The others two people just left.
finally dying a dozen times, killing enemies gradually, we did all dungeons very carefully, killing the final boss with the help of a rene-mof and A Certain "glitch": D.
previously, there comes one gwf using this pink enchant (and failed).
well, I made by far the greatest amount of damage ... but I assure that is the first in the game that i just exercising ONE SINGLE function, pure dps (a great one, but just dps).
what that means? gwf accumulated functions here? no. I did so much damage that become all the rest dispensable? no. and double that perfomance (a second gwf) dont help against a boss that you can not just die and back.
the ranger exercised so much control that made another controller dispensable? no. the mof as a great addition.
gf is so great tank that has made another tank dispensable? if yes, why we die dozens of times?
every time for a long the run they just say one thing over and over again "we need a healer".
that is balance... why change that because of some pvprs or people that never want balance? in my opinion, mark stay and lol set stay. for that super geared ones, create legendary dungeons.
the big problem here is: that people LOVE run lol when the enemies die like flies. some times a cw have 2k of damage in advantage before the bosses. because the class have best aoe? no, because he have a best mount. and that is neverwinter
the set is op, but the amount of damage, for pve, is not a game break (game break is a smart player have more than 3.5k of gear and no legendary dungeons).
in my opinion they should fix that set and up the critical severity for all classes/races in 15% or 25%. if you do that, will be like if you give a vorpal for all new players, solving a lot of problems of the game today. and that still a nerf for gwfs that have this set.
I'm more concerned about the future of certain items of the guild to be honest... GC will have big problems to to manage that.
0
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Before even start talking about "nerf the GWF", firstly the lostmauth's set bonus must be fixed. Only then, we will be able to get a realistic view of every class DPS during an usual dungeon run. The class is only getting maximum benefit using that set bonus due to high crit % (100% uptime), high crit severity, attack speed and damage bonuses granted by the class itself and by others. Once it gets fixed, the source of dmg will be reduced, therefore, increase the time it takes to kill a mob giving the opportunity to other classes to deal more damage. That will reduce the wide difference in dmg between classes.
He is rigth why?
Can GWF kill stronghold dragon solo? No
Can Paladin kill stronhold dragon solo? Yes
Can SW kill stronhold dragon solo? Yes
I dont think the GWF need to be nerfed .
W/o the Lol set GWF isnt really a huge issue cuz he can do only 1 job DPS and he die a lot .
Lets look at other classes .
CW tanky as hell can heal, ranged ,buffs, controll+ really high dps class to.
Ranger high dps ,ranged+controll + buffs.
DC high dps +heals and some buffs /or the best buffer in game ,heals+ prema daly for the pt.
Paladin healer super buffs burning guidance high dps .
Paladin tank unkillable best tank in game ,heals , nice dps , nice buffs.
GF conq second best buffer OMG dps (with lol set +20k crit+ vorpal) perma daly invicible protector of the party +omg self heal.
TR high DPS good controll.
Well SW is the worst its true but he can do some nasty things if you have the fable set.
I think this game is well balanced but items are not .
They did something for GF's .... it entails you creating a Paladin
LOL, so harsh and so true. Yeah, they hurt GF tanking ability. You can still tank, but man, you gotta stay on your toes! I have an OP alt, all I can say is, what a package (not that kind of package wise guy). Just un-stopable and can self-heal and others.
The GF still has the goods, it's just that the feats need to be modernized for the mod 6 content. The DR feat, the HP feat, the armor feat. Fix those, you got a working tank again. Dev's could probably fix it in an hour. But the problem is PvP. Make feat changes to fix PvE tanking, PvPers not playing a GF will complain. Endless cycle of this class. Well, pretty much every class, right?
I hit 70 and my character feels weaker than when max was 60. Something seems to be off about life steal it hardly ever works. It used to be awesome now it kinda blows. Anyone else notice that?
Seriously, no class should be guaranteed "top" of anything. Every class has 2 paths with 3 trees to build from. Why shouldn't a character who specced for damage do any more or less than another who has done the same?
Balance between classes must begin at where damage comes from. Every class needs access to the same types of options to make DPS in their feat trees. To do great damage, one must sacrifice strengths from other areas, namely survivability.
Next, every class has a utility power that must follow the same rules as making damage. Sacrifices to damage to enhance the utility power. Simple.
This ends up with a universal sliding scale that looks like: DPS----somewhere in between----Utility
Why should there be any want for one class over another when we have so many options to choose from while building a character? I prefer variety to clear cut roles and can't see a reason why a party of 5 of any class combination shouldn't be able to successfully complete the content here.
Example:
LF1M tank elol could be responded to by an Oppressor, Sentinel, Combat, Faithful, etc. instead of the limitations imposed from seeking only traditional tank classes.
Seriously, no class should be guaranteed "top" of anything. Every class has 2 paths with 3 trees to build from. Why shouldn't a character who specced for damage do any more or less than another who has done the same?
simple: if you look some guides about pve in the forum you will aways read the same: "above certain gear, in general, rogues and sws are better choice than gwfs"
why? be a striker is not only do a lot of damage, but do that damage w/o relatiation. for example, when a rogue come invisible to the target, hit, dodge, back to be invisible etc, etc, etc they do that secundary function to what means be a striker.
gwf just have one way to approach/dps the target easily: avalanche of steel, a daily. sprint works fine in some situation, but never so great than certain mechanicals and/or dodge/range/both.
you should have a tree working that:
"The Instigator combines cunning and strength to harnesses the ferocity of battle into precision attacks and tatical maneuvers."
Any rumours to the following ? Dungeons coming back. Fix lag issues. Fix class feats/encounters that don't work as stated. Make the game of less off a gambling and grinding simulator. Fix overpowered Lostmauth set. Fix design rules that break the rules that developers themselves have declared (like Paladins that are 100% immune to damage 100% of the time for example).
I doubt they'll nerf Lostmauth at this point, it is far more likely that they'll add equally if not more powerful sets in the future.
Eh considering how hard they're willing to screw everyone with the upcoming leadership changes I wouldn't put anything past them.
Seriously, no class should be guaranteed "top" of anything. Every class has 2 paths with 3 trees to build from. Why shouldn't a character who specced for damage do any more or less than another who has done the same?
simple: if you look some guides about pve in the forum you will aways read the same: "above certain gear, in general, rogues and sws are better choice than gwfs"
why? be a striker is not only do a lot of damage, but do that damage w/o relatiation. for example, when a rogue come invisible to the target, hit, dodge, back to be invisible etc, etc, etc they do that secundary function to what means be a striker.
gwf just have one way to approach/dps the target easily: avalanche of steel, a daily. sprint works fine in some situation, but never so great than certain mechanicals and/or dodge/range/both.
you should have a tree working that:
"The Instigator combines cunning and strength to harnesses the ferocity of battle into precision attacks and tatical maneuvers."
but... you know.
You're worried about GWF's role in the game. So am I. The exception being I am also taking into consideration that maybe other people in the game don't want to play a GWF but would still like to be useful in their own right. Giving every class equal opportunities of doing real damage or real tanking doesn't take anything away from you. Make one class a necessity for everything and that automatically makes other classes necessary for nothing. This is what you don't want to happen to your class again, right?
Consider this a foundation on how to fix that problem for everybody all at once. Balance starts with a solid core philosophy which must be tweaked and adjusted until every class is pretty much capable of the same DPS. After that is mathematically achieved, balancing the Utility powers comes next. This will be a little trickier because that's where the personality of a class shines through, but it can be done over time. All of this assuming Cryptic pulls their heads out of their butts or sells the game to somebody who gives a HAMSTER.
"The Instigator combines cunning and strength to harnesses the ferocity of battle into precision attacks and tactical maneuvers." -- is just role playing fluff that could be applied to any class by changing one word, Instigator. It carries no weight in a balancing discussion between 8 total classes, 16 possible paths, and 48 unique path trees that can be mixed and matched to varying degrees of utility.
"gwf just have one way to approach/dps the target easily: avalanche of steel, a daily. sprint works fine in some situation, but never so great than certain mechanicals and/or dodge/range/both." -- Could be a valid issue that needs balancing. Every class has their own weaknesses, however, and having one doesn't entitle you to more of anything.
0
romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
I feel like copying my post from another topic here should be relevant:
This is an MMORPG for f...'s sake, if you are looking for table-top rules, play table-top. MMORPGs are all based on grinding, combat, pvp, organizing groups and guilds and social interaction. This whole "primary this, secondary that" ruleset would apply to some DnD titles, but let's face it. This is an MMORPG by a company that is not associated with WotC, except buying/renting their license to use the whole concept to reach masses that otherwise wouldn't have touched these kind of games. It's all just a marketing strategy. You can't possibly expect the game to follow "x" ruleset and only "x" ruleset because "y" ruleset is already not a true one and you've only played "z" "v" and "x" and those are the real blah blah blah.... insert nostalgic ****.
This is a standalone game with similarities to another game for marketing purposes. The goal is not to assign an untouchable role to each class, your ultimate goal as a developer is to create a working and ever-changing system. Either rock-paper-scissors or provide variety within a certain class or both. You can have the view that a certain class is supposed to be good at something, but this strength shouldn't be multiplicative of something other classes can do as well because of specialization. While a rock-paper-scissors system exists in this game, it is only there (due to the PvE nature of the game) to be used for party composition. Now the main problem here is that this game doesn't challenge specific party compositions. You can create a group of 3 dd, 1 support/heal, 1 tank and pretty much clear everything the game has to offer. So, since the group can be this universal, why only allow Warlocks and GWFs to be able to fill the DD role, because as you say, they are the primary strikers. Why eliminate a whole palette of possibilities and combinations because YOU PERSONALLY got used to other rules in another game.
Conclusion: The people who want to pigeonhole other classes to certain roles and only those roles, are really HAMSTER close-minded. Go back to your fantasy games with pen and paper and set your own rules. MMORPGs are ever-changing and ever-evolving. Each game has it's own ruleset, but these rules always change, especially if it is there to create a more enjoyable experience FOR EVERYONE. Class-envy is ****, destroying someone else's sandcastle because you can't build your own is ****.
Seems like some players do not get this through their skulls:
- If you want GWF nerfed, the easiest way to do so is by nerfing Lostmauth set, T. Negation and T. Feytouched.
Why you keep writing this bs? T. negation making gwf immortal? I'v got my trans. negation at 5 July (so it has not been nerfed yet back then) on my GWF and I'm 10 second warrior when I meet BiS TR or GF, or HR, it DOES NOT help me at all (perhaps I am 2-3 secs longer alive but that's it). I'm playing GWF over a 2 years so I know optimal builds (don't even try to tell my that I don't know builds, tactics etc.). This enchantment may be a problem for low geared players but it will not help to survive when you fighitng gwf vs BiS (or 2,5k+ IL) classes like TR, GF, HR. When you meet BiS TR you won't even be able to run away, this class is too fast while GWF sprint is pathethic. Seriously cut that nonsens already...
You're worried about GWF's role in the game. So am I. The exception being I am also taking into consideration that maybe other people in the game don't want to play a GWF but would still like to be useful in their own right. Giving every class equal opportunities of doing real damage or real tanking doesn't take anything away from you. Make one class a necessity for everything and that automatically makes other classes necessary for nothing. This is what you don't want to happen to your class again, right?
Consider this a foundation on how to fix that problem for everybody all at once. Balance starts with a solid core philosophy which must be tweaked and adjusted until every class is pretty much capable of the same DPS. After that is mathematically achieved, balancing the Utility powers comes next. This will be a little trickier because that's where the personality of a class shines through, but it can be done over time. All of this assuming Cryptic pulls their heads out of their butts or sells the game to somebody who gives a HAMSTER.
wait, wait, wait...
1- you guys have idea to the time when NOBODY want gwfs and rogues to dps, gfs to tank, dcs to heal etc, etc, etc because you just need stack cws and cc/melt all the enemies in seconds?
nooooooooooooo thanks
TODAY EVEN IF YOU SPEAK ABOUT A SINGLE ROLE - strikers - when you have some gap between the damage potencial, you will read "rogues and sws is more confiable dps than gwf for pve",
2 - to value dps between classes you will need value:
RADIUS AND RANGES buffs/debuffs defence/deflect/general defensive mechanicals control self heal or party heal etc, etc etc?
that means, play some 8bits game of ninjas or acrobatic soldiers when the difference between charaters is the colours of your clothes?
Comments
37by your own resources?the point is simple, gwf are not made to have 100% of critical chance. some classes have differents ways to got that status, gwf no... the "imbalance" come to super gears. and that laz charater today is more expensive than a car.
now imagine if you nerf the guy that have only 30% of critical chance and no vorpal (that means 75%-90% of critical severity) based in a guy that have 100% of crtical chance and 175% of critical severity?
that is why i speak about optimize and not nerf.
To me the only way you could ask for that is removing the cdr on it and halving your movement speed but ye, we dont even know how many of us will still play next week soooo who cares.
My hr is dead thanks to a single overload slot, not much to say
a "main striker do so much damage is wrong... stun like a hell, no".
back to what matter:
just to give a personal testimony (hallelujah)
after the "2xrp" I a gf and a ranger of my guild went to ETOS. the lowest gear is mine, and i have lol set and a transcendent vorpal.
The others two people just left.
finally dying a dozen times, killing enemies gradually, we did all dungeons very carefully, killing the final boss with the help of a rene-mof and A Certain "glitch": D.
previously, there comes one gwf using this pink enchant (and failed).
well, I made by far the greatest amount of damage ... but I assure that is the first in the game that i just exercising ONE SINGLE function, pure dps (a great one, but just dps).
what that means? gwf accumulated functions here? no. I did so much damage that become all the rest dispensable? no. and double that perfomance (a second gwf) dont help against a boss that you can not just die and back.
the ranger exercised so much control that made another controller dispensable? no. the mof as a great addition.
gf is so great tank that has made another tank dispensable? if yes, why we die dozens of times?
every time for a long the run they just say one thing over and over again "we need a healer".
that is balance... why change that because of some pvprs or people that never want balance? in my opinion, mark stay and lol set stay. for that super geared ones, create legendary dungeons.
the big problem here is: that people LOVE run lol when the enemies die like flies. some times a cw have 2k of damage in advantage before the bosses. because the class have best aoe? no, because he have a best mount. and that is neverwinter
in my opinion they should fix that set and up the critical severity for all classes/races in 15% or 25%. if you do that, will be like if you give a vorpal for all new players, solving a lot of problems of the game today. and that still a nerf for gwfs that have this set.
I'm more concerned about the future of certain items of the guild to be honest... GC will have big problems to to manage that.
Can GWF kill stronghold dragon solo? No
Can Paladin kill stronhold dragon solo? Yes
Can SW kill stronhold dragon solo? Yes
I dont think the GWF need to be nerfed .
W/o the Lol set GWF isnt really a huge issue cuz he can do only 1 job DPS and he die a lot .
Lets look at other classes .
CW tanky as hell can heal, ranged ,buffs, controll+ really high dps class to.
Ranger high dps ,ranged+controll + buffs.
DC high dps +heals and some buffs /or the best buffer in game ,heals+ prema daly for the pt.
Paladin healer super buffs burning guidance high dps .
Paladin tank unkillable best tank in game ,heals , nice dps , nice buffs.
GF conq second best buffer OMG dps (with lol set +20k crit+ vorpal) perma daly invicible protector of the party +omg self heal.
TR high DPS good controll.
Well SW is the worst its true but he can do some nasty things if you have the fable set.
I think this game is well balanced but items are not .
The only exeption is SW he need some buff.
I believe it will get a buff, though, as I actually noticed yesterday that 3 players out of the 242 I inspected were not using it.
Yeah, they hurt GF tanking ability. You can still tank, but man, you gotta stay on your toes!
I have an OP alt, all I can say is, what a package (not that kind of package wise guy). Just un-stopable and can self-heal and others.
The GF still has the goods, it's just that the feats need to be modernized for the mod 6 content.
The DR feat, the HP feat, the armor feat. Fix those, you got a working tank again. Dev's could probably fix it in an hour.
But the problem is PvP. Make feat changes to fix PvE tanking, PvPers not playing a GF will complain. Endless cycle of this class. Well, pretty much every class, right?
Balance between classes must begin at where damage comes from. Every class needs access to the same types of options to make DPS in their feat trees. To do great damage, one must sacrifice strengths from other areas, namely survivability.
Next, every class has a utility power that must follow the same rules as making damage. Sacrifices to damage to enhance the utility power. Simple.
This ends up with a universal sliding scale that looks like: DPS----somewhere in between----Utility
Why should there be any want for one class over another when we have so many options to choose from while building a character? I prefer variety to clear cut roles and can't see a reason why a party of 5 of any class combination shouldn't be able to successfully complete the content here.
Example:
LF1M tank elol could be responded to by an Oppressor, Sentinel, Combat, Faithful, etc. instead of the limitations imposed from seeking only traditional tank classes.
why? be a striker is not only do a lot of damage, but do that damage w/o relatiation. for example, when a rogue come invisible to the target, hit, dodge, back to be invisible etc, etc, etc they do that secundary function to what means be a striker.
gwf just have one way to approach/dps the target easily: avalanche of steel, a daily. sprint works fine in some situation, but never so great than certain mechanicals and/or dodge/range/both.
you should have a tree working that:
"The Instigator combines cunning and strength to harnesses the ferocity of battle into precision attacks and tatical maneuvers."
but... you know.
Consider this a foundation on how to fix that problem for everybody all at once. Balance starts with a solid core philosophy which must be tweaked and adjusted until every class is pretty much capable of the same DPS. After that is mathematically achieved, balancing the Utility powers comes next. This will be a little trickier because that's where the personality of a class shines through, but it can be done over time. All of this assuming Cryptic pulls their heads out of their butts or sells the game to somebody who gives a HAMSTER.
"The Instigator combines cunning and strength to harnesses the ferocity of battle into precision attacks and tactical maneuvers." -- is just role playing fluff that could be applied to any class by changing one word, Instigator. It carries no weight in a balancing discussion between 8 total classes, 16 possible paths, and 48 unique path trees that can be mixed and matched to varying degrees of utility.
"gwf just have one way to approach/dps the target easily: avalanche of steel, a daily. sprint works fine in some situation, but never so great than certain mechanicals and/or dodge/range/both." -- Could be a valid issue that needs balancing. Every class has their own weaknesses, however, and having one doesn't entitle you to more of anything.
This is an MMORPG for f...'s sake, if you are looking for table-top rules, play table-top. MMORPGs are all based on grinding, combat, pvp, organizing groups and guilds and social interaction. This whole "primary this, secondary that" ruleset would apply to some DnD titles, but let's face it. This is an MMORPG by a company that is not associated with WotC, except buying/renting their license to use the whole concept to reach masses that otherwise wouldn't have touched these kind of games. It's all just a marketing strategy. You can't possibly expect the game to follow "x" ruleset and only "x" ruleset because "y" ruleset is already not a true one and you've only played "z" "v" and "x" and those are the real blah blah blah.... insert nostalgic ****.
This is a standalone game with similarities to another game for marketing purposes. The goal is not to assign an untouchable role to each class, your ultimate goal as a developer is to create a working and ever-changing system. Either rock-paper-scissors or provide variety within a certain class or both. You can have the view that a certain class is supposed to be good at something, but this strength shouldn't be multiplicative of something other classes can do as well because of specialization. While a rock-paper-scissors system exists in this game, it is only there (due to the PvE nature of the game) to be used for party composition. Now the main problem here is that this game doesn't challenge specific party compositions. You can create a group of 3 dd, 1 support/heal, 1 tank and pretty much clear everything the game has to offer. So, since the group can be this universal, why only allow Warlocks and GWFs to be able to fill the DD role, because as you say, they are the primary strikers. Why eliminate a whole palette of possibilities and combinations because YOU PERSONALLY got used to other rules in another game.
Conclusion:
The people who want to pigeonhole other classes to certain roles and only those roles, are really HAMSTER close-minded. Go back to your fantasy games with pen and paper and set your own rules. MMORPGs are ever-changing and ever-evolving. Each game has it's own ruleset, but these rules always change, especially if it is there to create a more enjoyable experience FOR EVERYONE. Class-envy is ****, destroying someone else's sandcastle because you can't build your own is ****.
Consider this a foundation on how to fix that problem for everybody all at once. Balance starts with a solid core philosophy which must be tweaked and adjusted until every class is pretty much capable of the same DPS. After that is mathematically achieved, balancing the Utility powers comes next. This will be a little trickier because that's where the personality of a class shines through, but it can be done over time. All of this assuming Cryptic pulls their heads out of their butts or sells the game to somebody who gives a HAMSTER.
wait, wait, wait...
1- you guys have idea to the time when NOBODY want gwfs and rogues to dps, gfs to tank, dcs to heal etc, etc, etc because you just need stack cws and cc/melt all the enemies in seconds?
nooooooooooooo thanks
TODAY EVEN IF YOU SPEAK ABOUT A SINGLE ROLE - strikers - when you have some gap between the damage potencial, you will read "rogues and sws is more confiable dps than gwf for pve",
2 - to value dps between classes you will need value:
RADIUS AND RANGES
buffs/debuffs
defence/deflect/general defensive mechanicals
control
self heal or party heal
etc, etc etc?
that means, play some 8bits game of ninjas or acrobatic soldiers when the difference between charaters is the colours of your clothes?