You're worried about GWF's role in the game. So am I. The exception being I am also taking into consideration that maybe other people in the game don't want to play a GWF but would still like to be useful in their own right. Giving every class equal opportunities of doing real damage or real tanking doesn't take anything away from you. Make one class a necessity for everything and that automatically makes other classes necessary for nothing. This is what you don't want to happen to your class again, right?
Consider this a foundation on how to fix that problem for everybody all at once. Balance starts with a solid core philosophy which must be tweaked and adjusted until every class is pretty much capable of the same DPS. After that is mathematically achieved, balancing the Utility powers comes next. This will be a little trickier because that's where the personality of a class shines through, but it can be done over time. All of this assuming Cryptic pulls their heads out of their butts or sells the game to somebody who gives a HAMSTER.
wait, wait, wait...
1- you guys have idea to the time when NOBODY want gwfs and rogues to dps, gfs to tank, dcs to heal etc, etc, etc because you just need stack cws and cc/melt all the enemies in seconds?
nooooooooooooo thanks
TODAY EVEN IF YOU SPEAK ABOUT A SINGLE ROLE - strikers - when you have some gap between the damage potencial, you will read "rogues and sws is more confiable dps than gwf for pve",
2 - to value dps between classes you will need value:
RADIUS AND RANGES buffs/debuffs defence/deflect/general defensive mechanicals control self heal or party heal etc, etc etc?
that means, play some 8bits game of ninjas or acrobatic soldiers when the difference between charaters is the colours of your clothes?
If I knew the leadership nerfs were coming. I would of made all my alts GWFs to run AD content. It's a fast, powerful, and easy class to play in non-epic content. Easily my favorite when just grinding. When I play my GF main, I'm on the edge of my seat, when I play my GWF alt, I'm low riding in my char, listening to music, barely paying attention. Yeah OPs are overpowered (and might stay this way) but GWF is fast, has amazing DPS even pre-70. Easy button for mindless dungeon/skirmish grinding.
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
Paladin healer super buffs burning guidance high dps .
Paladin tank unkillable best tank in game ,heals , nice dps , nice buffs.
GF conq second best buffer OMG dps (with lol set +20k crit+ vorpal) perma daly invicible protector of the party +omg self heal.
I have to agree with all of this post. I just switched to GWF Destroyer from GF Conqueror because I don't like to tank and can't keep up with Pally's (YES! OP OP's.) I have been underwhelmed with the choices I have in a fight with the GWF after Conqueror GF. I'm still a little new to the class, so that has to be taken into consideration, but I feel naked without my 120 HP and shield....
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
lets not start polemics. T.feytouch is great for its debuff
[sarcams mode on] And S.E. is great because it bypass all defenses... [sarcams mode off]
And, again, Lancer, you are wrong. What makes GWF inmortal is LS at 20% + T. Feytouched + T. Negation (i will not tell you, which other powers do you need to do so, because, obviously, you should know them all. ) . Remove T. Negation and GWF is a glass cannon. Remove T. Feytouched and they will not get those monstrous numbers we saw a lot of times, hence, they will not steal as much HP to sustain themselves. Endless just improve that sustainability which is high with out it.
But well, i think i am preaching on desert...
I had heard that Feytouched wasn't good for PVE. Is that true? I run a hybrid PVE/PVP build with T Vorpal. My crit doesn't yet break 50 percent....
(...) Seems like some players do not get this through their skulls: (...)
^ yes you are right.
what makes GWF immortal is a BOON from Dread Ring Endless Consumtion : When you steal health from your Lifesteal Stat , it has a chance to steal 3x times as much.
so this is what makes the GWF OP in PVP. yes he is losing from a TR and a GF, cause they have burst damage, without even hittin them , how can u lifesteal? so lifesteal mostly all of the time is useless against them.
Exactly - Life steal won't work on melee class versus TR, CW or HR, because they won't let you hit them, no hit = no dealing dmg = no life steal working. Life steal may work when you fight on GWF vs GF, DC, OP or SW. GF will kill you anyway because he has crazy burst dmg like you'v said (but at least you can run away from GF which is not possible while combat with TR - your sprint is end after 10 steps and TR is faster than epic mount... -.-).
- my build? - seriously? - how many builds are effective on GWF right now? - only one: Destroyer+3 feats from Sentinel, known by all for long time no need to post a build rly, Instigator is still idiotic (wasn't worth choosing even once from the start of this game), paragon path? - I'm still on Iron Vanguard altough in combat vs TR/CW/HR Sword Master is a bit better but fighting TR that "a bit" won't make you survive. I don't have boon Endless Consumption right now or Trans. Feytouch but it wouldn't help me much with TR either because like stated above Life Steal does not work against this classes. About rest of the gear: Weapon art. set at legend, Lastmouth set at legend and as much deflect+ crit chance as possible from artifacts etc. One more thing - GWF in pvp doesn't have high critic chance like in PvE. Why? Because it's very hard (against TR impossible) to stack Weapon Master class feature (giving about 12% crit chance), I don't even use it often - much better are Brave and Destroyer (or some other passives). So in pvp GWF has about 35% crit chance which is far from high... (remember TR have 100% in stealth, CW Renegate may have about 40-45% in pvp, GF doesn't rly need high crit chance with his burst dmg on Conqueror+ITF...).
@robarum i dont know what you read wrong in what i wrote, but i said endless consumtion used by GWFs makes a huge difference when they fight HRs, CWs and SW.
against a TR it doesnt help you that much , or a GF cause both of the class rely on powers that deal huge amount of do burst, the other classes DC / PALLY are healing classes where you dont need endless consumtion when fightin them, cause they can't kill you (also u can't beat them 1vs1).
But I agreed didnt I? I haven't seen any BiS HRs lately in pvp so I don't know but in the past I had a problem with catching them (skilled ones are using invisibility from daily) and good CW won't let GWF hit him like you can see on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5uolTQR2VQ
SW need bufs right now, so GWF have no problems with killing this class altough in mod 5 (if I remember correctly) I'v met one SW which was using Shadow Slip constantly (literally all the time) and had so high self-healing that I wasn't able to kill him. But it was in mod 5... (most problably he was using Eldritch Momentum feat which gave him constant stamina for Shadow slip).
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urlord283Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,084Arc User
One of the reasons this discussion is probably never gonna end (Lancer, looking at you), is because there's a huuuge distinction between the PVP GWF (which, is by all means, GIMP compared to what it needs to be) and the PVE GWF.
Being realistic, and knowing this IS cryptic, the nerf bat is coming and it's hanging right over the class's head. Now the real question is if it's justified and the simple answer is no. the Lostmauth set should either just disappear from game or get a massive fix to remove ALL ampfires from it. I didn't wear the set for a couple of months in Mod 6, while I still did out-dps my excellenct TR guildie, it wasn't by much (he was wearing the set back then.) The difference between our damage was more or less 30% while with the set it's a direct 100%. 30% should be manageable and fair, more than that is imbalance. This is not a class problem, this is purely the set granting the class more benifits than any other (due to the highest weapon damage, crit, crit sev, etc.) thus making the playground uneven.
PVP GWF is a different story, what it's lacking is purely more utility. Longer CC duration, a little more survivability, some kind of a dodge or half dodge mechanic. A lot of GWF's are speccing for PVP in a fully defensive manner, knowing their damage is going to be lackluster, but not bad and they can afford to lose some in favor of more defensive stats.
And yet, given all that, my predictions are still grim. SW is going to be OP next mod since Cryptic can't fix something's that broken without making it overpowered (*cough*Mod5TR) and nerf others because the community is QQing all over the floor. The dev pattern of behavior proved to be preeetttty consistent in that matter, sadly.
Nope they not! Its an offtank class! It can do some dmg but not top dmg!
And excusing it with Lostmauth dmg is lame! Maybe someone is not doing math but others do...
gentlemancrush wrote: » Hey all, wanted to drop in and let you all know we are monitoring the PVP performance.
To clarify some things, we are generally fairly happy with where GWFs are in PVE. They are competitive, and do very solid damage for the risks they take being in melee range (where there are more consistent threats to worry about).
the same is valid for the "BIG pratical difference" in this game between your type of armor. well, rogues dont have the best damage, but by far the best tools to attack w;o counter. the PRATICAL reason WHY GWF DO SO MUCH DAMAGE
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
All want your class to be buffed and the class that own you nerfed ... Stop children !!
And Btw the higher damage dealing class is supposed to be the Rogue not the GWF
I don't know about later editions, but in 3.5 of DND Thief was its own class and it did not do more damage than fighters in a 1v1. It only did more damage when attacking from behind. Also, there was no such thng as PermaStealth, you could hide in shadows-but that first hit better bring the fighter down, because there was no re-take. The fighter would do you in.
Is supposed that they do the most damage but is conditional... Now in 3.5 whatever with 2H Weapon and power attack do excessive damage because the holes in the rules as i could solo a terrasque at lvl 20... Thats why many ppl dont want to play 4e or 5e...
the same is valid for the "BIG pratical difference" in this game between your type of armor. well, rogues dont have the best damage, but by far the best tools to attack w;o counter. the PRATICAL reason WHY GWF DO SO MUCH DAMAGE
Rogues have the aggro bug (some rogues not all -- where the rogue is never ever attacked unless the rest of the party is dead) but that is not a deliberate tool and if it were fixed you would quickly realize that they die much more readily than any gwf. As far as stealth being a tool to attack without counter, well it lasts about 3 or 4 hits and that is it and so it is worthless as an "attack without counter" tool but it is useful for a 'pause'. Right now, though, gwf with 1k or lower IL are managing 50% or more of a TR's damage and at no greater risk than the TR in delivering the damage and in fact when actually under attack they are far better off than the TR. I know that the lostmauth set has some factor in this equation but the odd construction of the destroyer is the main problem (I have 2 of them myself and I realize they suffer at certain stages of the game and become gods in others).
the big problem here is, some differences - like mobility - are subjectives... damage is material. you can see that in pve and pvp but not quantify.
about damage diferences, letme say this: iam not against down the difference between MAIN STRIKERS+strikers trees. yes, maybe is more than necessary. if tomorrow come some nerfs and rogues become so easy to be killed in t2 dungeons like gwfs, so is fair have the same amount of damage, and thats not because a "class A" use a big sword or a "class B" a light armor... lets ignore phenotypes for now.
iam against down the diference between gwfs and SECUNDARY STRIKERS OR NON STRIKERS. that is all.
gwf is not fine because do far, far more damage than a commom sw, but because you can not just stack another type of class-role w/o BIG damage losses - lets ignore some bugs - to the same way, you can not stack gwfs w/o cc, heal, utility losses. and that atributes are not like a trash today.
is better you have a entire party buffing and protecting a gwf than just take 2 non strikers, doing +/- the same amount of damage, buffing and protecting one each other like happens in few modules ago.
because of that and only that i protect the actual status. i dont have any interest about do 2x more damage than rogues/sws/rangers. that is not a demand.
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
I hate GWFS... but for Godsake leave them alone.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited September 2015
Why shouldn't the GWF be top DPS? It's melee, it has no dodge, has no viable CC, no way of starting a fight without taking damage. It depends on a tank and controllers to give it the breathing room it requires.
Toss 3 of em with a GF that doesn't use KV, and a DC. They drop like flies. They get completely wrecked by the blob of phase spiders in eToS.
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
Is supposed that they do the most damage but is conditional... Now in 3.5 whatever with 2H Weapon and power attack do excessive damage because the holes in the rules as i could solo a terrasque at lvl 20... Thats why many ppl dont want to play 4e or 5e...
I guess DnD buffed the thief after 3.5. I stand corrected.
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
Rogues were top tier damage dealers in 4th edition, but they dropped down to third tier status in 5E.
GWFs should suck just because they're based on the Slayer class from 4E, and that class was a dumbed down version that didn't have the power or versatility of classes that came before it.
I am, of course, kidding-NWO doesn't duplicate 4E's playstyle in any way shape or form, there's no reason for it to duplicate its sense of class balance.
Yah I dont get where DnD even fits in this game. It's an MMO with a very loose theme to NW. The people who got me into this game, left like 2 days after the release of it. The reason for that, this wasnt DnD. It was an MMO with the DnD just stuck on it.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
edited September 2015
It's not Neverwinter Nights 3
Seriously, people bitched and moaned that 4th Edition was too "video gamey" but for !@#$s sake, 4E was the only edition of the game to never have a CRPG release that actually modeled the rules set. That's such a sore spot for me. If I ever go back in time, I'm going to engineer events to ensure that 4E gets a CRPG release.
Why shouldn't the GWF be top DPS? It's melee, it has no dodge, has no viable CC, no way of starting a fight without taking damage. It depends on a tank and controllers to give it the breathing room it requires.
Toss 3 of em with a GF that doesn't use KV, and a DC. They drop like flies. They get completely wrecked by the blob of phase spiders in eToS.
Top DPS is one thing, 50% to 100% more damage than a comparable striker is another altogether. GWF has better total damage, better burst, better single target, better ae, and thanks to hidden daggers now better ranged (you don't believe me on this I bet, simple parse it). The GWF handles hits a hell of a lot better than a TR and it is only due to the TR aggro bug that the squishy nature of the TR is not apparent. The TR has his smoke and his pause in his favor but that in no way equates to 50% to 100% or more of a difference. I have always felt the GWF should have a small edge in overall damage, in the degree of 5% or so, but nothing like it currently is.
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
edited September 2015
Post edited by romotheone on
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
To clarify some things, we are generally fairly happy with where GWFs are in PVE. They are competitive, and do very solid damage for the risks they take being in melee range (where there are more consistent threats to worry about).
the same is valid for the "BIG pratical difference" in this game between your type of armor. well, rogues dont have the best damage, but by far the best tools to attack w;o counter. the PRATICAL reason WHY GWF DO SO MUCH DAMAGE
We as GWFs I presume!
It shouldnt do 2/3 times dmg as other dps classes with same gear.
The PVE Balance is getting embarassing in this game...
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
It shouldnt do 2/3 times dmg as other dps classes with same gear.
The PVE Balance is getting embarassing in this game...
like i said in another post, some differences is more subjective (and qualitative) than material. for exemple, how much damage you do through your party using a debuff. if you quantify that, you will see that gfs do far more damage than a gwf, in pve, for example. is just a conditional attribute.)
about that romo posts: the single problem here - ignoring thats bizarre 65k of power - is a hipotetical ranger (or rogue... the third one) dont do 2/3 more damage than your cw too. but close to 2x less being DAMAGE A MAIN FUNCTION OF A STRIKER, NOT A CONTROLLER.
thats is the neverwinter forum. do 2x more damage than another class is ok, even if that is the function of another class, if you are a cw.
I'm sorry, that is BiS damage, nothing more. That is Rank12 everywhere and the best of everything in the game. I also think you all need to read the Lostmauth set bonus again ..... I do not understand how you all think the set is OP
for us, that set works like +/-50% of severity over the commom sure strike (33% the last hit) and 10% a ibs execution. because of that i give the suggest to fix that set and up the critical severity for all races/ classes in 15%/25% and that still a nerf for gwfs (and a breath for the new players)
but that cws are more concerned about be the top king of everthing.
Comments
Consider this a foundation on how to fix that problem for everybody all at once. Balance starts with a solid core philosophy which must be tweaked and adjusted until every class is pretty much capable of the same DPS. After that is mathematically achieved, balancing the Utility powers comes next. This will be a little trickier because that's where the personality of a class shines through, but it can be done over time. All of this assuming Cryptic pulls their heads out of their butts or sells the game to somebody who gives a HAMSTER.
wait, wait, wait...
1- you guys have idea to the time when NOBODY want gwfs and rogues to dps, gfs to tank, dcs to heal etc, etc, etc because you just need stack cws and cc/melt all the enemies in seconds?
nooooooooooooo thanks
TODAY EVEN IF YOU SPEAK ABOUT A SINGLE ROLE - strikers - when you have some gap between the damage potencial, you will read "rogues and sws is more confiable dps than gwf for pve",
2 - to value dps between classes you will need value:
RADIUS AND RANGES
buffs/debuffs
defence/deflect/general defensive mechanicals
control
self heal or party heal
etc, etc etc?
that means, play some 8bits game of ninjas or acrobatic soldiers when the difference between charaters is the colours of your clothes?
It's a fast, powerful, and easy class to play in non-epic content. Easily my favorite when just grinding.
When I play my GF main, I'm on the edge of my seat, when I play my GWF alt, I'm low riding in my char, listening to music, barely paying attention.
Yeah OPs are overpowered (and might stay this way) but GWF is fast, has amazing DPS even pre-70. Easy button for mindless dungeon/skirmish grinding.
@clonkyo1
- my build? - seriously? - how many builds are effective on GWF right now? - only one: Destroyer+3 feats from Sentinel, known by all for long time no need to post a build rly, Instigator is still idiotic (wasn't worth choosing even once from the start of this game), paragon path? - I'm still on Iron Vanguard altough in combat vs TR/CW/HR Sword Master is a bit better but fighting TR that "a bit" won't make you survive. I don't have boon Endless Consumption right now or Trans. Feytouch but it wouldn't help me much with TR either because like stated above Life Steal does not work against this classes. About rest of the gear: Weapon art. set at legend, Lastmouth set at legend and as much deflect+ crit chance as possible from artifacts etc. One more thing - GWF in pvp doesn't have high critic chance like in PvE. Why? Because it's very hard (against TR impossible) to stack Weapon Master class feature (giving about 12% crit chance), I don't even use it often - much better are Brave and Destroyer (or some other passives). So in pvp GWF has about 35% crit chance which is far from high... (remember TR have 100% in stealth, CW Renegate may have about 40-45% in pvp, GF doesn't rly need high crit chance with his burst dmg on Conqueror+ITF...).
SW need bufs right now, so GWF have no problems with killing this class altough in mod 5 (if I remember correctly) I'v met one SW which was using Shadow Slip constantly (literally all the time) and had so high self-healing that I wasn't able to kill him. But it was in mod 5... (most problably he was using Eldritch Momentum feat which gave him constant stamina for Shadow slip).
Really
Being realistic, and knowing this IS cryptic, the nerf bat is coming and it's hanging right over the class's head. Now the real question is if it's justified and the simple answer is no. the Lostmauth set should either just disappear from game or get a massive fix to remove ALL ampfires from it. I didn't wear the set for a couple of months in Mod 6, while I still did out-dps my excellenct TR guildie, it wasn't by much (he was wearing the set back then.) The difference between our damage was more or less 30% while with the set it's a direct 100%. 30% should be manageable and fair, more than that is imbalance. This is not a class problem, this is purely the set granting the class more benifits than any other (due to the highest weapon damage, crit, crit sev, etc.) thus making the playground uneven.
PVP GWF is a different story, what it's lacking is purely more utility. Longer CC duration, a little more survivability, some kind of a dodge or half dodge mechanic. A lot of GWF's are speccing for PVP in a fully defensive manner, knowing their damage is going to be lackluster, but not bad and they can afford to lose some in favor of more defensive stats.
And yet, given all that, my predictions are still grim. SW is going to be OP next mod since Cryptic can't fix something's that broken without making it overpowered (*cough*Mod5TR) and nerf others because the community is QQing all over the floor. The dev pattern of behavior proved to be preeetttty consistent in that matter, sadly.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance
Its an offtank class! It can do some dmg but not top dmg!
And excusing it with Lostmauth dmg is lame!
Maybe someone is not doing math but others do...
And Btw the higher damage dealing class is supposed to be the Rogue not the GWF
That's why rogue uses light armor and GWF uses medium... Rogue do More damage GWF is moré resistant that is supposed to be...
And i only want to complain about Perma-Stealth is estupid to hit from range invisible i wish the Rogue nerf comes by this side.
I trust devs will do a great Job this module is about PVP so is very probably all will get balanced... Or the most posible.
Its an offtank class! It can do some dmg but not top dmg!
And excusing it with Lostmauth dmg is lame!
Maybe someone is not doing math but others do...
gentlemancrush wrote: »
Hey all, wanted to drop in and let you all know we are monitoring the PVP performance.
To clarify some things, we are generally fairly happy with where GWFs are in PVE. They are competitive, and do very solid damage for the risks they take being in melee range (where there are more consistent threats to worry about).
the same is valid for the "BIG pratical difference" in this game between your type of armor. well, rogues dont have the best damage, but by far the best tools to attack w;o counter. the PRATICAL reason WHY GWF DO SO MUCH DAMAGE
about damage diferences, letme say this: iam not against down the difference between MAIN STRIKERS+strikers trees. yes, maybe is more than necessary. if tomorrow come some nerfs and rogues become so easy to be killed in t2 dungeons like gwfs, so is fair have the same amount of damage, and thats not because a "class A" use a big sword or a "class B" a light armor... lets ignore phenotypes for now.
iam against down the diference between gwfs and SECUNDARY STRIKERS OR NON STRIKERS. that is all.
gwf is not fine because do far, far more damage than a commom sw, but because you can not just stack another type of class-role w/o BIG damage losses - lets ignore some bugs - to the same way, you can not stack gwfs w/o cc, heal, utility losses. and that atributes are not like a trash today.
is better you have a entire party buffing and protecting a gwf than just take 2 non strikers, doing +/- the same amount of damage, buffing and protecting one each other like happens in few modules ago.
because of that and only that i protect the actual status. i dont have any interest about do 2x more damage than rogues/sws/rangers. that is not a demand.
Toss 3 of em with a GF that doesn't use KV, and a DC. They drop like flies. They get completely wrecked by the blob of phase spiders in eToS.
GWFs should suck just because they're based on the Slayer class from 4E, and that class was a dumbed down version that didn't have the power or versatility of classes that came before it.
I am, of course, kidding-NWO doesn't duplicate 4E's playstyle in any way shape or form, there's no reason for it to duplicate its sense of class balance.
I asked them, "why don't you like the game."
Answer:"This isnt dungeons and dragons."
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Seriously, people bitched and moaned that 4th Edition was too "video gamey" but for !@#$s sake, 4E was the only edition of the game to never have a CRPG release that actually modeled the rules set. That's such a sore spot for me. If I ever go back in time, I'm going to engineer events to ensure that 4E gets a CRPG release.
It shouldnt do 2/3 times dmg as other dps classes with same gear.
The PVE Balance is getting embarassing in this game...
about that romo posts: the single problem here - ignoring thats bizarre 65k of power - is a hipotetical ranger (or rogue... the third one) dont do 2/3 more damage than your cw too. but close to 2x less being DAMAGE A MAIN FUNCTION OF A STRIKER, NOT A CONTROLLER.
thats is the neverwinter forum. do 2x more damage than another class is ok, even if that is the function of another class, if you are a cw.
but that cws are more concerned about be the top king of everthing.