Personally I like the idea of removing it, But ultimately the reason leadership armies became a thing is because it was the only way too earn enough to do anything, so they need to add new ways too gain AD by playing that can help match the actual required intake. I think more BOUND RP needs to be added to Leadership / other rewards for it. Give it a box that has bound RP in it and a SUPER SUPER low chance for pres / coal wards at level 25 or something. make that investment into leadership still worthwhile for actual players.
I also think the "rewards" for doing content needs to be doubled.
This exactly. Pre-module 6 or even going back to say module 4, there were hardly ANY leadership armies out there. It was only when they kept increasing each modules "AD requirements" in the form of "Hey, here is NEW artifact equipment" or "hey level 70! now rank 12s and mythics. YOu're welcome!" did it become too much for the players to handle and force them to look to other means of making AD.
Hardly, there are many ppl that have been running Leadership armies since beta.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I am laughing at all the people defending this crazy change.
You have no clue. The bots, even the leadership ones were are blessing for this game. Without these bots how low the amount of AD and refinement points would be? Exactly!
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
I do not like it, simply due to the reason, I dont believe the people running the show, has been player friendly enough to also reduce costing and increase AD , while removing some of the grind needed on other stuff.
Removal of AD in leadership, will remove at least 50% of my entire AD I make in game.. while what they are giving back is a pittance of that (in fact go run the math, you will see how really bad the return is.
In addition all the time, effort and YES real life out of pocket money to buy characters and make a small leadership army is wasted. On top of that , the leadership change , makes it WORTHLESS until level 24, (res stones) will still be the only thing worth getting AT all out of leadership.
The audacity to state things that are clearly untrue is staggering. "leadership will still offer valuable things to players" no, it will not. Not at all.
It will be on par with all other professions. IE it will stink.
How am I ever supposed to roll a alt and play and progress in game, without a further increase of AD generation for playing, removal of GRIND levels (by 50% or more) for things like SH and MATS for enchant progression.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Or we go along with what they are proposing, which is leave the state of the game at A (100M AD requirement for a BiS character), but not allow Leadership toons.
IF they truly wanted it to be B they would make that change at the SAME time such that it should not cost over 100M AD to get a BiS character as that is just not possible without spending over $10,000 in their proposed state.
Do you honestly think the extra AD they mentioned for dungeons is going to make up for lack of leadership? It's a complete joke. They are deluding themselves if they think even half the players will remain in the game after this change.
This is exactly my point. We're of the exact same mind here, believe it or not.
The fact that the top end is so unrealistically unobtainable by anyone who's just playing the game is NOT sustainable.
The fact that BiS "costs" over $10,000 PER toon is crazy and NOT sustainable.
The fact that people need to manage a farmville of dozens and dozens of characters for the sole purpose of running Leadership alts is NOT sustainable.
Everyone here is right. The entire situation is NOT sustainable. But the changes have to start somewhere, and the root cause (for both players and bots) of too much AD being in the system for years has finally come to a head. And Cryptic could either make the tough choice to end that abruptly, and move on from there...or let it continue on as is, and watch the game slowly bleed out.
If we want the game to have a future where you can enjoy it and feel like you're making progress by actually playing, the change has to start somewhere.
And as of now, that starts on the 15th. And yes, it's far from perfect, and nobody, not even Cryptic is saying it is.
But to evolve the game to the point where playing the game IS the most rewarding thing you can do will take time...we can't dig ourselves out of this hole overnight.
Everyone should keep posting their feedback, suggestions and complaints, because they are listened to and changes are made based off player feedback.
And now that the stake has been shoved into the heart of Leadership, and it's simply not possible for ANYONE to farm millions of AD a week, we need to rebalance those other issues brought to light here to make this a game that is sustainable for your average player around that refined 24k AD/day limit.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
You NEED to start correctly, starting from somewhere IS not good enough, they lose to many players due to doing it that WAY.
REDUCE costing and GIVE REAL rewards for the playing the game.
SH grinding should be lowered BY 50% at least to allow us to PLAY their game to acquire AD instead.
These ARE immediate needed changes.
Please cryptic listen to us here, DO not make this change, WITHOUT lowering costing. IT has to be IMPLEMENTED together, not separate.
So my question is this. Was leadership a fun aspect of the game for people? Did people honestly enjoy the "cookie clicker" aspect of leadership? Or was it the results that made people happy?
In other words, do you feel the game would be more fun for people if:
A) Players were essentially required to run 20-30 or more Leadership toons to be able to play the game
or
b) Playing the game was more rewarding, and provided a more clear path to advancement
Because A is the status quo. If the planned leadership changes were reverted, it would essentially require players to continue to play "cookie clicker" for most of their time, in the hopes that what little slivers of time they had not managing a leadership army was more fun. As well as maintain a very easily exploitable profession for bots and AD farmers.
Or we can go do the path of B, and while it's filled with uncertainty, hope that the benefit to the overall "fun" of Neverwinter, as in just playing the actual game, becomes more rewarding.
Biased polls aside, that's the real choice we're looking at here.
of course B. But you dont handle things like this. they should BEFORE: 1) put a cap for account to refining. 2) Double ADs from dailies. 3) Put 400 RADs in HE 4) new BoE items 5) bring back all the old content and more.
they say they want me to play right but -they remove ads from dailies -they leave the key requirements for chests. -they reward me with 400-500 ads....wow! - cut the content of a 70% and dont introduce nothing new dungeon wise in the last 1 year and half.
i have a new: there is no content, there is no reason to play and those 500 ads are a slap on my face.
after changes to dragon hoard, nerf changes again to dragon hoard, false advertisements on promotion, removal of neverguy dailies, BoP gate etc etc something is clear: they are peeing on our heads and say that is raining.
no no just no. i have got enough
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
The AD return from the lead designer is a terrible. Its not enough to progress in game, its less then what you made back in the day really from picking up lords quests + dailies and picking away from them (while getting a few purples to salvage as well)
They already nerfed AD creation by 40-60% depending on what you did, progressing in GAME will NOT cost less.. not ONE AD less you need millions and millions and millions of AD. UNLESS they switch costing, trying to get millions and millions and millions of AD will be horrendeous.
The system CANNOT bear this change without FIXING cost to progression. ITS simple 1 vs 1 equation.
DO not implement the change until you GET a handle on ACCURATE costing.
You are changing the system totally and not FIXING the actual issue.
I would rather CLOSE the zen exhange for 3 months instead of just removing leadership, while you figure this out. THIS IS A BETTER solution.
OR just make VIP not buyable except via cash.
Thats YET another better option.
I need AD to progress with the current costing in game and you ARE not fixing this issue, you are making it 100X worse.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited September 2015
Also, just to note that the patch HAS NOT gone live yet. Changes are still possible, and it would be fantastic if the Devs took a look at some of the "low hanging fruit" when it comes to reducing the AD sinks.
1) Marks on the Wondrous Bazaar (50% price reduction)
2) Removing the necessity of duplicate enchantments for all levels of enchantments (Weapon, Armor, Enchantments, Runestones)
3) Cut by 50% costs to upgrade mounts and companions.
4) Cubes of Augmentation - Keep the price the same, but allow the player to chose the skill that gets unlocked.
I think those are relatively low-hanging and stuff that everyone here can agree are major, major roadblocks for people looking to advance their toons.
Personally I like the idea of removing it, But ultimately the reason leadership armies became a thing is because it was the only way too earn enough to do anything, so they need to add new ways too gain AD by playing that can help match the actual required intake. I think more BOUND RP needs to be added to Leadership / other rewards for it. Give it a box that has bound RP in it and a SUPER SUPER low chance for pres / coal wards at level 25 or something. make that investment into leadership still worthwhile for actual players.
I also think the "rewards" for doing content needs to be doubled.
Agree, hopefully it will at least be "bound to account" to make up for the removal
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lairdbansheeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14Arc User
So my question is this. Was leadership a fun aspect of the game for people? Did people honestly enjoy the "cookie clicker" aspect of leadership? Or was it the results that made people happy?
Leadership is a Facebook browser-game bolt-on for Neverwinter. It's like I'm back playing Castle Age, which I left years ago. But it's a necessary evil, as it's a low-time-intensive way for my three toons to generate ADs. And they have generated enough for this solo player to get by. They didn't make me "happy", but they did allow me to get what I need to slowly progress.
I'm in a small guild with a literal handful of players who have toons that can even survive in a dungeon. Considering how often toons get one-shot in dungeons, even that is a questionable statement. We are 9-to-5-working and married players who play multiple games together, and only a small, receding fraction of our normal group plays this. Decisions like this killing of ADs thru Leadership is a reason why. So now all of us who remain must ask, "Do I ship my ADs to the Stronghold or use them to advance my toon?"
I'd like to say, "Use a Capcha" for each AD-generating Leadership task, but I'm told that botters aren't bothering with Leadership now, so that's rather moot. It's got to be all about the Zen-extortion.
At this point, I hold no hope for us. Generally in life, when you're down to hope, you're screwed. Here it will be no different. There won't be any useful avenues for a mostly-solo player in a small guild to thrive; they won't code any in, as they'd rather try to extort Zen out of me (which they won't get for this game), or if they do code an attempt, it'll be so bug-ridden that they'll panic-pull the hotfix right back out.
It's hilarious that STO is now the "stable" game compared to Neverwinter. That's where you'll find me, unless a miracle happens here. And Celeste's presence won't likely generate a miracle either.
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onegaki101Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 327Arc User
Hey guys they are putting more ADs for actual play, why always complain? They just need to put enough ADs in game and have time tweaking it to see 'general happiness' (not just botter happiness) raise. The bot army is just disrupting the economy.
The complaint is that they are NOT putting more AD for actual play. You could already reach the cap for main toons each day doing daily quest, dungeon, and skirmishes. Already have a backlog of 500k rough AD on multiple characters. The cap for 24k refinement will still remain. So the changes proposed is to remove any astral diamons gained from leadership from alts.
Funny thing they announced this AFTER a 20% sale on character slots .
Leadership is part of the game, for some it may have been extremely boring and not consider it "playing" the game, but in reality it is part of the game, whether you liked it or not.
The sad part is that they will most likely (like many similar changes they made in the past) go through with this change without implementing a proper solution. Have you gone to the preview section and checked what they did with Leadership? All they did was remove the rough AD reward, kept everything else the same. So the lvl 25, a 24h task, will give you the same reward as a lvl23 task that runs for 4 hrs. YAY!
I have used the leadership toons out of necessity as I have more than one toon I run at once. I do hate it with a passion as it is boring and will probably lead to an RSI due to the horrible interface it has (prolly why so many have gone the bot route). What Cryptic/PWE needs to get here is that we do it because of their horrible pricing structure. That needs to change FIRST, not be "revisited" later. Show us you are serious and understand our pain before yanking the rug out from under us. The sad little changes to what we can get from running the limited content available over and over and over is not going to come close to cutting it. Hold off on your changes until you have a full overhaul in place ready to placate the masses that right now are lining up at the door or at the least grabbing their torches and pitchforks and headed for Castle Cryptic. And would it be too much to ask to involve the community with these things? Making decisions like this in a vacuum is what got us where we are today.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Leadership is a Facebook browser-game bolt-on for Neverwinter. It's like I'm back playing Castle Age, which I left years ago. But it's a necessary evil, as it's a low-time-intensive way for my three toons to generate ADs. And they have generated enough for this solo player to get by. They didn't make me "happy", but they did allow me to get what I need to slowly progress.
So maybe they should also look at SCA as a way to generate some RAD? For those people who want to stay connected to Neverwinter when they're not in game?
Wouldnt that be just as bad and botable as leadership though?
I would prefer to have the main source or only source of ad by actively playing the game
Not really, because you still need high level companions to do it successfully, and I would guess it's complex and random enough that it'd be hard to reliably bot, right?
Plus, you don't have to make it oodles of AD. Maybe a 500 for winning a R6 dungeon, capped at 3,000/day.
Leadership is a Facebook browser-game bolt-on for Neverwinter. It's like I'm back playing Castle Age, which I left years ago. But it's a necessary evil, as it's a low-time-intensive way for my three toons to generate ADs. And they have generated enough for this solo player to get by. They didn't make me "happy", but they did allow me to get what I need to slowly progress.
So maybe they should also look at SCA as a way to generate some RAD? For those people who want to stay connected to Neverwinter when they're not in game?
Probably a better rate of return somewhere else. They will go wherever is most profitable. When they take that away they move on to the next most profitable.
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lairdbansheeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14Arc User
So maybe they should also look at SCA as a way to generate some RAD? For those people who want to stay connected to Neverwinter when they're not in game?
SCA already is a way to generate RAD: just keep plugging with purple and blue companions in the toughest dungeon and wait for the purple ring drops that are worth six-figures in the AH. Problem is, I'm Playing A Completely Different Game To Generate ADs. The bigger problem is, playing SCA these days is sometimes more fun than Neverwinter...
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
So my question is this. Was leadership a fun aspect of the game for people? Did people honestly enjoy the "cookie clicker" aspect of leadership? Or was it the results that made people happy?
In other words, do you feel the game would be more fun for people if:
A) Players were essentially required to run 20-30 or more Leadership toons to be able to play the game
or
b) Playing the game was more rewarding, and provided a more clear path to advancement
Because A is the status quo. If the planned leadership changes were reverted, it would essentially require players to continue to play "cookie clicker" for most of their time, in the hopes that what little slivers of time they had not managing a leadership army was more fun. As well as maintain a very easily exploitable profession for bots and AD farmers.
Or we can go do the path of B, and while it's filled with uncertainty, hope that the benefit to the overall "fun" of Neverwinter, as in just playing the actual game, becomes more rewarding.
Biased polls aside, that's the real choice we're looking at here.
Your question itself is misleading. It is the type to which Marisa Tomei's character in 'My Cousin Vinny' memorably assigned a profane label. The reason is that advancing beyond rank 7 enchantments and epic artifact gear is too expensive to realistically do without a leadership army. The economy of the game has, in every aspect, been designed to frustrate players into spending large amounts of money rather than plod through making 24,000 AD/day at best.
This change does NOT provide a clear path to advancement other than spending massive amounts of cash. It takes away the only clear path to advancement. Maintaining a leadership army is not a time-consuming task at all but only requires a couple of logins a day. This frees up players' time to play the parts of the game they enjoy or require for gear or boons without being bothered with hours per day until they make 24k AD - a sum which allows making about 1 rank 9 enchantment every 5 weeks and no hope whatever of ever buying one of the artifacts necessary to complete a set (essential in the game) or trade AD for zen to buy special companions (also essential) or ever be able to compete on an even playing field with people who already obtained their best in slot gear through exploits or just spending a fortune - and we all know the pvp queues will never be fixed to allow players to actually compete with skill rather than gear.
Being forced to spend hours a day grinding to make starvation-level amounts of AD is not rewarding. It does not provide a clear path to advancement. The devs have not offerered any means of making gameplay more rewarding (increasing drop rates for valuable items, fixing longstanding bugs (elven battle vs. thorned roots, BID instances that have been broken for over a year), making it other than freakishly expensive to progress past rank 7-8 enchantments, giving us back the missing dungeons, making ECC winnable at the minimum gear level without exploits, or ceasing to find new and annoying ways to take up players' bag space would be steps in that direction. We see none of those. Next time you want to call a poll biased, please have at least the ghost of a case to make, especially as a community moderator, that it is so.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
@feanor70118 Minus the personal attacks, I agree with everything you said.
But Leadership was only exasperating the situation, not helping it. With that avenue gone, I it opens up the discussion of pressing the Devs on exactly the issues you just laid out.
When people complain about hitting a brick wall or not being able to advance, no longer is the "Well, just make a bunch of leadership toons, that's what I did" a valid answer.
I believe removing the AD from Leadership is only one part of the bigger change that has to happen to keep Neverwinter moving along. But as to what are those other changes? That's the feedback the Devs need to here from you, and that's being delivered in this thread. And I promise you it's not being ignored.
And I apologize for putting the mod hat on mid-post, but when someone commented earlier that this was a thread only asking to be locked, I whole-heartedly disagree. Keep the feedback coming. You guys are offering great feedback which is being presented rationally and politely (as we can expect on such an issue), and you're speaking directly to the problems players are facing. We need more feedback like that, so please, keep debating the topic, but keep it relevant and on topic, as this thread has been.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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lairdbansheeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14Arc User
When people complain about hitting a brick wall or not being able to advance, no longer is the "Well, just make a bunch of leadership toons, that's what I did" a valid answer.
I believe removing the AD from Leadership is only one part of the bigger change that has to happen to keep Neverwinter moving along. But as to what are those other changes? That's the feedback the Devs need to here from you, and that's being delivered in this thread. And I promise you it's not being ignored.
And I apologize for putting the mod hat on mid-post, but when someone commented earlier that this was a thread only asking to be locked, I whole-heartedly disagree. Keep the feedback coming. You guys are offering great feedback which is being presented rationally and politely (as we can expect on such an issue), and you're speaking directly to the problems players are facing. We need more feedback like that, so please, keep debating the topic, but keep it relevant and on topic, as this thread has been.
OK, I'll bite, as someone who mostly solos and is part of a small guild totally comprised of people from a much larger guild in a different game, and as someone who has spent a little money on the game.
You have killed the main source of ADs for me. I can only foresee entering maybe two dungeons on the weekend days with each of my three toons, and that formerly only for the Dungeonning SoPs for Stronghold. Besides praying for Companion rings to drop in SCA that are worth 6-digits, converting Campaign currency to AH-auctionable items, and playing the markets as best I can (with fewer people left, that'll be even harder, once the initial dumping completes), there aren't many ways to reliably generate ADs.
So, you need to ensure I get ADs for: my Stronghold AD coffer, buying green/blue/purple equipment for Stronghold, Rank 3/4 enchantments/runestones for my Stronghold, GMoPs for artifacts, something better than rank 7 enchantments, artifact upgrades to "Greater" and then RP stones, an ioun companion, pack space. And I haven't even touched gear yet. Basically with Strongholds we all inherited a new AD-devouring toon. How will we now pay for it?
You want to make us earn our ADs by playing? Great. Then every quest, give us ADs along with normal rewards. ESPECIALLY for Foundry quests. They should give the biggest AD rewards of all, as they are a huge task to bot, will always be newly added, and Are *Supposed* To Be A Huge Feature Of The Game. Think of new events which have ADs as lead reward. Think of new hourly-rotated content whose main reward is ADs, I guarantee you most of the population will join in. If people can get other people with different IP addresses to create characters, they should get an AD stipend for their efforts. Contests could be created with ADs as prizes. And that's just off the top of my head.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Simply put, a vast reduction (of over 50% or more of our AD generation) is being removed, but your COSTING remains 100% the same. Its not viable not one iota, we cannot afford to progress and upgrade and donate millions and millions of AD when we cannot generate it.
So many alternatives are giving already, including my own thread. Its pretty simple, your doing this out of order, you cannot remove leadership and not reduce your costing at the same time. Its REALLY bad , its a complete lack of foresight and you will again lose thousands of players.
If your going to do this, DO IT RIGHT. ANNOUNCE a system wide costing reduction at the same time. Its the only way to do this.
Please, as a veteren mmo player, Im asking you do step back and implement this properly, IM trying to get you guys to the table here, you need money, great, find, wonderful, (in fact ive said before just drop the effing exchange, remove your f2p tag (or modify it like other games do) and make it that you can earn zen via playing vs buying it with AD and make AD only usable for AH purposes and progression mats.
Make people pay for thier VIP and remove from zen shop.. im EVEN fine with any and all of that .. but this complete lack of respect for your playerbase is frightening.
WE CANNOT maintain current costing with the AD production we will have, its impossible (sh itself requires it for the sole purpose of removing AD from the system, AD that WILL no longer be available! ) yikes guys.
Please announce something today on this. Each hour is literally loosing you players.
Or what happened to the promise, that life steal for SW will be treated "special"?
While botters can run numerous accounts through dungeons, skirmishes, PvP and Strongholds, 24/7 and make a nice profit from this change... a lot of normal players are just screwed... again.
In other words, history repeating.
And here's your assignment, you have until the end of next week: Goal: 240k AD per day Time: 1-3hrs per day Restrictions: No special loot drops, no PvP, character level between 20 and 60, with the new AD "rewarding" system in place of course. and the clock is ticking.
Post edited by regenerde on
I do believe in killing the messenger...
Want to know why?
Because it sends a message!
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onegaki101Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 327Arc User
They should remove SCA as it is not "playing the game". Why allow it to generate AD from drops, same as leadership. Or any profession. In fact, they should shut down gateway as that is not actively playing the game.
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vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
edited September 2015
we all believed that hoards nerf is part of bigger .... and after that change we dont get a word from cryptic about them for months till now ..... and so on so on
players are not biased, but there is zero faith at cryptic after all. right now they deserve a salt water...
I'd be ok with getting rid of the leadership grind if they drastically scaled down the cost of everything in the game. But when an upgrade costs 2-5 GMOPS and a Cole ward and RP, for a single enchant or artifact upgrade, progress is glacial. Lets do some math.
Maybe you can earn 48k a day playing on multiple chars. And a single upgrade costs 700k AD (mid tier). 700k/48k = 14.58 days. 2 full weeks for a single upgrade on a single item for many hours of play every day.
Also the AD in leardership should be replaced with RP bags/stones to make up the difference and not make leadership and huge waste of a years time ranking up.
Until then its just a big kick in the teeth.
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
I like it. I always hated the fact, that all the freaking freeloading leeches have better items than someone who spends actual money on Neverwinter. The main issue still will be present in the game, though. I am referring to those who abused leadership.
I bet you a GMOP that a substantial majority of players running Leadership on lots of toons are legitimate players that made an investment of time and money to build up that craft, not bots or cheaters.
Leadership should never have included AD, but it has for 2 years now. People have played the game within the framework that was given. Taking AD away now undermines people's sense of fairness and security. If people do not feel the game developers act fairly, they will not make additional investments in the game.
So if I do both, I am looking up to an estimated 22 to 24 hours of game time every day to make my 19000 to 22000 RAD I can get in a few minutes on leadership. The math doesn't lie.
You will get 18,9k to 21k AD with 2 normal dungeons, 2 normal skirmishes and 2 pvp matches. I think it may be done in less than 1 hour. Now add salvage and invocation on top of that and you'll see that reaching the daily limit is not so out of reach.
Keep in mind that we still have no details about the PvP daily quest that gives the 4k AD in addition to the currency needed for pvp gear or the foundry daily quest.
That is not how it read to me. I read 3000 rad for 2 dungeons equals 6000 rad. Then 150 to 500 rad per dungeon after that up to a total of 7000 rad. Either that is 7000 over the already 6000 rad meaning I would still have to run Cragmire Crypts up to a total of 9 times ( at 150 rad a run ) to get just 7000 rad. And if that is a total of 7000 rad over the initial 6000 then if CC only gives 150 rad a run, then that is 47 runs to get that 7000 rad. IF I get 500 rad per run, then I still have to run it 14 times to get that 7000 rad over the initial 6000 rad for doing the first 2 runs. Average about 15 minutes a run will take almost 11 hours to do all 47 dungeon runs. If it is a total of just 7000 then it would take any where from a little over an hour up to about 3 hours to get just the 7000 rad from the dungeons. Then throw in the same time frame for just skirmishes and that can add up to a total of 20 to 22 hours a day to get just 24000 to 26000 rad. Even if it is just 7000 total for both dungeons and skirmishes meaning a total of 14000 rad a day from doing both, you are still looking up to 3 hours a day of nothing but dungeons and skirmishes. And that is assuming you just run CC dungeon and Dread Legion skirmish. And you que instantly every single time. Now throw in a dungeon run or skirmish that takes much longer and that time frame exponentially goes up from there. This does not include any rad or item you might get from said run but if you just do CC dungeon and DL skirmish, you get nothing to sell or salvage.
So as I said before, when is anyone in the game supposed to do ANYTHING ELSE other than run dungeons, skirmishes, or do pvp ( if you like that ). They are not. And how in the world will anyone be able to level up any artifacts or gear from this point on when even an army of 50 leadership toons are not really enough for just 1 character to level up his artifact gear, enchantments, artifacts. Let alone more than 1 character. If you can't devoted more than 5 to 8 hours a day from this point on every day, it won't even be worth attempting to play. I won't even bother. And when everyone finds out how much time it will now take to level up your stuff and how little time and rad you have doing anything other than running dungeons, skirmishes, and pvp, so will everyone else. I myself will spend this weekend looking around at other games to play just in case they really go ahead with this.
I went vip partly for the extra leadership xp so I could get my 3 characters to level 25 faster in order to start earning a few more rad just to get my stuff leveled up since I don't have that much time to spend in game. And I feel lied to, cheated, taking advantage of, and totally ripped off. If I could get my money back from going vip, I would. And many others will feel exactly the same.
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
So if I do both, I am looking up to an estimated 22 to 24 hours of game time every day to make my 19000 to 22000 RAD I can get in a few minutes on leadership. The math doesn't lie.
You will get 18,9k to 21k AD with 2 normal dungeons, 2 normal skirmishes and 2 pvp matches. I think it may be done in less than 1 hour. Now add salvage and invocation on top of that and you'll see that reaching the daily limit is not so out of reach.
Keep in mind that we still have no details about the PvP daily quest that gives the 4k AD in addition to the currency needed for pvp gear or the foundry daily quest.
That is not how it read to me. I read 3000 rad for 2 dungeons equals 6000 rad.
No, that's not it. The 7200 pool is separate and starts working from the first run. On top of the 3000 bonus. So two runs is a guaranteed 6300 rad (if you get 150), and could be 7000 (if you get 500). On avarage it will be 6650. With 2 skirmishes it will be 6650 just the same. And PvP too.
6650 x 3 = 19950
How long does a 3man non-epic dungeon take? 15 minutes at most (unless you go sightseeing or the others disconnect, or there's something wrong happening IRL, but normally it's very fast). 30 minutes for two run. How long does a non-epic skirmish take? 15 minutes at most (same as normal dungeon). 30 minutes for two run. If you do Epic Skirmishes it may take longer (but with a good group it can be done fast too), but there's also an additional 3k salvage guaranteed from a chest that does NOT require a key. In fact with a very good group, if you run it 2 times you should get over 12k RAD from it in under 30 minutes from that alone. How long does a domination 5vs5 pvp match take? This can vary, but under new rules it's a lot faster than before (1vs1 on node will no longer stop the count, whoever has it will keep getting points). If you get crushed (or crush the opposing team) twice in a row, this will be done VERY fast. Anyways, two matches should not take more than 1 hour.
Even if we are looking at the worst case scenario, this is almost 20k AD in 2 hours. Most likely you'll be doing this in under 90 minutes. And the best days will take less than 1 hour. Now add Invocation on top of it and you're getting very close to 24k. The remaining small part can be done with a salvage, a rare leadership task (they're still there) or additional runs in dungeons, skirmishes or pvp if you feel like it. But if the time invested is too much, those missing 1k-2k will not make or break anything.
If you do not like to be forced into this kind of content, then the complaint is legitimate, but saying that reaching 24k RAD will take 20 to 22 hours is false and it's nowhere close to that.
Comments
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You have no clue. The bots, even the leadership ones were are blessing for this game.
Without these bots how low the amount of AD and refinement points would be? Exactly!
Removal of AD in leadership, will remove at least 50% of my entire AD I make in game.. while what they are giving back is a pittance of that (in fact go run the math, you will see how really bad the return is.
In addition all the time, effort and YES real life out of pocket money to buy characters and make a small leadership army is wasted. On top of that , the leadership change , makes it WORTHLESS until level 24, (res stones) will still be the only thing worth getting AT all out of leadership.
The audacity to state things that are clearly untrue is staggering. "leadership will still offer valuable things to players" no, it will not. Not at all.
It will be on par with all other professions. IE it will stink.
How am I ever supposed to roll a alt and play and progress in game, without a further increase of AD generation for playing, removal of GRIND levels (by 50% or more) for things like SH and MATS for enchant progression.
The fact that the top end is so unrealistically unobtainable by anyone who's just playing the game is NOT sustainable.
The fact that BiS "costs" over $10,000 PER toon is crazy and NOT sustainable.
The fact that people need to manage a farmville of dozens and dozens of characters for the sole purpose of running Leadership alts is NOT sustainable.
Everyone here is right. The entire situation is NOT sustainable. But the changes have to start somewhere, and the root cause (for both players and bots) of too much AD being in the system for years has finally come to a head. And Cryptic could either make the tough choice to end that abruptly, and move on from there...or let it continue on as is, and watch the game slowly bleed out.
If we want the game to have a future where you can enjoy it and feel like you're making progress by actually playing, the change has to start somewhere.
And as of now, that starts on the 15th. And yes, it's far from perfect, and nobody, not even Cryptic is saying it is.
But to evolve the game to the point where playing the game IS the most rewarding thing you can do will take time...we can't dig ourselves out of this hole overnight.
Everyone should keep posting their feedback, suggestions and complaints, because they are listened to and changes are made based off player feedback.
And now that the stake has been shoved into the heart of Leadership, and it's simply not possible for ANYONE to farm millions of AD a week, we need to rebalance those other issues brought to light here to make this a game that is sustainable for your average player around that refined 24k AD/day limit.
REDUCE costing and GIVE REAL rewards for the playing the game.
SH grinding should be lowered BY 50% at least to allow us to PLAY their game to acquire AD instead.
These ARE immediate needed changes.
Please cryptic listen to us here, DO not make this change, WITHOUT lowering costing. IT has to be IMPLEMENTED together, not separate.
they should BEFORE:
1) put a cap for account to refining.
2) Double ADs from dailies.
3) Put 400 RADs in HE
4) new BoE items
5) bring back all the old content and more.
they say they want me to play right but
-they remove ads from dailies
-they leave the key requirements for chests.
-they reward me with 400-500 ads....wow!
- cut the content of a 70% and dont introduce nothing new dungeon wise in the last 1 year and half.
i have a new: there is no content, there is no reason to play and those 500 ads are a slap on my face.
after changes to dragon hoard, nerf changes again to dragon hoard, false advertisements on promotion, removal of neverguy dailies, BoP gate etc etc something is clear:
they are peeing on our heads and say that is raining.
no no just no.
i have got enough
They already nerfed AD creation by 40-60% depending on what you did, progressing in GAME will NOT cost less.. not ONE AD less you need millions and millions and millions of AD. UNLESS they switch costing, trying to get millions and millions and millions of AD will be horrendeous.
The system CANNOT bear this change without FIXING cost to progression. ITS simple 1 vs 1 equation.
DO not implement the change until you GET a handle on ACCURATE costing.
You are changing the system totally and not FIXING the actual issue.
I would rather CLOSE the zen exhange for 3 months instead of just removing leadership, while you figure this out. THIS IS A BETTER solution.
OR just make VIP not buyable except via cash.
Thats YET another better option.
I need AD to progress with the current costing in game and you ARE not fixing this issue, you are making it 100X worse.
1) Marks on the Wondrous Bazaar (50% price reduction)
2) Removing the necessity of duplicate enchantments for all levels of enchantments (Weapon, Armor, Enchantments, Runestones)
3) Cut by 50% costs to upgrade mounts and companions.
4) Cubes of Augmentation - Keep the price the same, but allow the player to chose the skill that gets unlocked.
I think those are relatively low-hanging and stuff that everyone here can agree are major, major roadblocks for people looking to advance their toons.
I'm in a small guild with a literal handful of players who have toons that can even survive in a dungeon. Considering how often toons get one-shot in dungeons, even that is a questionable statement. We are 9-to-5-working and married players who play multiple games together, and only a small, receding fraction of our normal group plays this. Decisions like this killing of ADs thru Leadership is a reason why. So now all of us who remain must ask, "Do I ship my ADs to the Stronghold or use them to advance my toon?"
I'd like to say, "Use a Capcha" for each AD-generating Leadership task, but I'm told that botters aren't bothering with Leadership now, so that's rather moot. It's got to be all about the Zen-extortion.
At this point, I hold no hope for us. Generally in life, when you're down to hope, you're screwed. Here it will be no different. There won't be any useful avenues for a mostly-solo player in a small guild to thrive; they won't code any in, as they'd rather try to extort Zen out of me (which they won't get for this game), or if they do code an attempt, it'll be so bug-ridden that they'll panic-pull the hotfix right back out.
It's hilarious that STO is now the "stable" game compared to Neverwinter. That's where you'll find me, unless a miracle happens here. And Celeste's presence won't likely generate a miracle either.
Funny thing they announced this AFTER a 20% sale on character slots
Leadership is part of the game, for some it may have been extremely boring and not consider it "playing" the game, but in reality it is part of the game, whether you liked it or not.
The sad part is that they will most likely (like many similar changes they made in the past) go through with this change without implementing a proper solution. Have you gone to the preview section and checked what they did with Leadership? All they did was remove the rough AD reward, kept everything else the same. So the lvl 25, a 24h task, will give you the same reward as a lvl23 task that runs for 4 hrs. YAY!
I would prefer to have the main source or only source of ad by actively playing the game
Plus, you don't have to make it oodles of AD. Maybe a 500 for winning a R6 dungeon, capped at 3,000/day.
Not sure why they aren't already botting it. Plenty of high priced companion gear and RP drops from it.
This change does NOT provide a clear path to advancement other than spending massive amounts of cash. It takes away the only clear path to advancement. Maintaining a leadership army is not a time-consuming task at all but only requires a couple of logins a day. This frees up players' time to play the parts of the game they enjoy or require for gear or boons without being bothered with hours per day until they make 24k AD - a sum which allows making about 1 rank 9 enchantment every 5 weeks and no hope whatever of ever buying one of the artifacts necessary to complete a set (essential in the game) or trade AD for zen to buy special companions (also essential) or ever be able to compete on an even playing field with people who already obtained their best in slot gear through exploits or just spending a fortune - and we all know the pvp queues will never be fixed to allow players to actually compete with skill rather than gear.
Being forced to spend hours a day grinding to make starvation-level amounts of AD is not rewarding. It does not provide a clear path to advancement. The devs have not offerered any means of making gameplay more rewarding (increasing drop rates for valuable items, fixing longstanding bugs (elven battle vs. thorned roots, BID instances that have been broken for over a year), making it other than freakishly expensive to progress past rank 7-8 enchantments, giving us back the missing dungeons, making ECC winnable at the minimum gear level without exploits, or ceasing to find new and annoying ways to take up players' bag space would be steps in that direction. We see none of those. Next time you want to call a poll biased, please have at least the ghost of a case to make, especially as a community moderator, that it is so.
But Leadership was only exasperating the situation, not helping it. With that avenue gone, I it opens up the discussion of pressing the Devs on exactly the issues you just laid out.
When people complain about hitting a brick wall or not being able to advance, no longer is the "Well, just make a bunch of leadership toons, that's what I did" a valid answer.
I believe removing the AD from Leadership is only one part of the bigger change that has to happen to keep Neverwinter moving along. But as to what are those other changes? That's the feedback the Devs need to here from you, and that's being delivered in this thread. And I promise you it's not being ignored.
And I apologize for putting the mod hat on mid-post, but when someone commented earlier that this was a thread only asking to be locked, I whole-heartedly disagree. Keep the feedback coming. You guys are offering great feedback which is being presented rationally and politely (as we can expect on such an issue), and you're speaking directly to the problems players are facing. We need more feedback like that, so please, keep debating the topic, but keep it relevant and on topic, as this thread has been.
You have killed the main source of ADs for me. I can only foresee entering maybe two dungeons on the weekend days with each of my three toons, and that formerly only for the Dungeonning SoPs for Stronghold. Besides praying for Companion rings to drop in SCA that are worth 6-digits, converting Campaign currency to AH-auctionable items, and playing the markets as best I can (with fewer people left, that'll be even harder, once the initial dumping completes), there aren't many ways to reliably generate ADs.
So, you need to ensure I get ADs for: my Stronghold AD coffer, buying green/blue/purple equipment for Stronghold, Rank 3/4 enchantments/runestones for my Stronghold, GMoPs for artifacts, something better than rank 7 enchantments, artifact upgrades to "Greater" and then RP stones, an ioun companion, pack space. And I haven't even touched gear yet. Basically with Strongholds we all inherited a new AD-devouring toon. How will we now pay for it?
You want to make us earn our ADs by playing? Great. Then every quest, give us ADs along with normal rewards. ESPECIALLY for Foundry quests. They should give the biggest AD rewards of all, as they are a huge task to bot, will always be newly added, and Are *Supposed* To Be A Huge Feature Of The Game. Think of new events which have ADs as lead reward. Think of new hourly-rotated content whose main reward is ADs, I guarantee you most of the population will join in. If people can get other people with different IP addresses to create characters, they should get an AD stipend for their efforts. Contests could be created with ADs as prizes. And that's just off the top of my head.
So many alternatives are giving already, including my own thread. Its pretty simple, your doing this out of order, you cannot remove leadership and not reduce your costing at the same time. Its REALLY bad , its a complete lack of foresight and you will again lose thousands of players.
If your going to do this, DO IT RIGHT. ANNOUNCE a system wide costing reduction at the same time. Its the only way to do this.
Please, as a veteren mmo player, Im asking you do step back and implement this properly, IM trying to get you guys to the table here, you need money, great, find, wonderful, (in fact ive said before just drop the effing exchange, remove your f2p tag (or modify it like other games do) and make it that you can earn zen via playing vs buying it with AD and make AD only usable for AH purposes and progression mats.
Make people pay for thier VIP and remove from zen shop.. im EVEN fine with any and all of that .. but this complete lack of respect for your playerbase is frightening.
WE CANNOT maintain current costing with the AD production we will have, its impossible (sh itself requires it for the sole purpose of removing AD from the system, AD that WILL no longer be available! )
yikes guys.
Please announce something today on this. Each hour is literally loosing you players.
Please show a single action taken against botters in the past, that actually hit the botters and not the normal players in the end.
http://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1194402/feedback-needed-top-issues-currently-in-neverwinter-pc
the feedback thread, and what have the Devs taken from it, to actually improve the game for all players?
http://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1191873/bonus-companions-not-account-wide
or what about this one, anything new about this?
With the "chance" to get a Celeste companion from blood ruby packs right now, don't you think that it would be high time to come to a solution for players, that supported the game with their ZEN purchases back then?
Or what happened to the promise, that life steal for SW will be treated "special"?
While botters can run numerous accounts through dungeons, skirmishes, PvP and Strongholds, 24/7 and make a nice profit from this change... a lot of normal players are just screwed... again.
In other words, history repeating.
And here's your assignment, you have until the end of next week:
Goal: 240k AD per day
Time: 1-3hrs per day
Restrictions: No special loot drops, no PvP, character level between 20 and 60, with the new AD "rewarding" system in place of course.
and the clock is ticking.
players are not biased, but there is zero faith at cryptic after all. right now they deserve a salt water...
Maybe you can earn 48k a day playing on multiple chars. And a single upgrade costs 700k AD (mid tier).
700k/48k = 14.58 days. 2 full weeks for a single upgrade on a single item for many hours of play every day.
Also the AD in leardership should be replaced with RP bags/stones to make up the difference and not make leadership and huge waste of a years time ranking up.
Until then its just a big kick in the teeth.
Leadership should never have included AD, but it has for 2 years now. People have played the game within the framework that was given. Taking AD away now undermines people's sense of fairness and security. If people do not feel the game developers act fairly, they will not make additional investments in the game.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
So as I said before, when is anyone in the game supposed to do ANYTHING ELSE other than run dungeons, skirmishes, or do pvp ( if you like that ). They are not. And how in the world will anyone be able to level up any artifacts or gear from this point on when even an army of 50 leadership toons are not really enough for just 1 character to level up his artifact gear, enchantments, artifacts. Let alone more than 1 character. If you can't devoted more than 5 to 8 hours a day from this point on every day, it won't even be worth attempting to play. I won't even bother. And when everyone finds out how much time it will now take to level up your stuff and how little time and rad you have doing anything other than running dungeons, skirmishes, and pvp, so will everyone else. I myself will spend this weekend looking around at other games to play just in case they really go ahead with this.
I went vip partly for the extra leadership xp so I could get my 3 characters to level 25 faster in order to start earning a few more rad just to get my stuff leveled up since I don't have that much time to spend in game. And I feel lied to, cheated, taking advantage of, and totally ripped off. If I could get my money back from going vip, I would. And many others will feel exactly the same.
So two runs is a guaranteed 6300 rad (if you get 150), and could be 7000 (if you get 500). On avarage it will be 6650.
With 2 skirmishes it will be 6650 just the same. And PvP too.
6650 x 3 = 19950
How long does a 3man non-epic dungeon take? 15 minutes at most (unless you go sightseeing or the others disconnect, or there's something wrong happening IRL, but normally it's very fast). 30 minutes for two run.
How long does a non-epic skirmish take? 15 minutes at most (same as normal dungeon). 30 minutes for two run.
If you do Epic Skirmishes it may take longer (but with a good group it can be done fast too), but there's also an additional 3k salvage guaranteed from a chest that does NOT require a key. In fact with a very good group, if you run it 2 times you should get over 12k RAD from it in under 30 minutes from that alone.
How long does a domination 5vs5 pvp match take? This can vary, but under new rules it's a lot faster than before (1vs1 on node will no longer stop the count, whoever has it will keep getting points). If you get crushed (or crush the opposing team) twice in a row, this will be done VERY fast. Anyways, two matches should not take more than 1 hour.
Even if we are looking at the worst case scenario, this is almost 20k AD in 2 hours. Most likely you'll be doing this in under 90 minutes. And the best days will take less than 1 hour.
Now add Invocation on top of it and you're getting very close to 24k. The remaining small part can be done with a salvage, a rare leadership task (they're still there) or additional runs in dungeons, skirmishes or pvp if you feel like it. But if the time invested is too much, those missing 1k-2k will not make or break anything.
If you do not like to be forced into this kind of content, then the complaint is legitimate, but saying that reaching 24k RAD will take 20 to 22 hours is false and it's nowhere close to that.