What do you think of the change removing AD from leadership?

reiwulf

each day that goes by without them telling us a reasonable way to progress our characters is another day where more people are getting angrier and many are leaving. I really hope they have the rest of their plan ready and inform us soon. Or they're the only ones that will finally lose.

candinho2

kvet said:

Except that bots have nothing to do with this. If they have reliable analytics on bot activity then they should use that data to remove the bots, not penalize a year+ investment of time and resources training and equipping alts to do leadership.



No, the not stuff is pure propaganda. This is about removing ingame income to push people to buy Zen. That's all it's about. Don't believe a word about bots, that's absolutely not what this is about.

Finaly sameone on forun other than me that think! that's rare over here

balorin

I don't care about what they do to fix the economy, what is really my concern is about the content and about that i can see a total lack of new decent pve content since the the begining of module 6.

regenerde

Well, as allready mentioned, some people here, Devs included, might get it, when they take a look at the player numbers next week, and that might be the wake up call they need to actually start listening to the community...

ogarious

regenerde said:

Well, as allready mentioned, some people here, Devs included, might get it, when they take a look at the player numbers next week, and that might be the wake up call they need to actually start listening to the community...

Yeah, right.....Caterday happened. We got a badge out of it.

They will ride this ship into the ground without second guessing any decisions being made. No matter what the player numbers of the game say.

Worse comes to worse they'll just close the game down and move on elsewhere.

The only real way you will see change is if there is some sort of lawsuit posted against Cryptic/PWE. And I don't see that happening. The people here just don't have it in them to fight for this game. And honestly, I wouldn't think it would be worth it.

skalt112

ironzerg79 said:

@bilitheaxe66 What you're really upset about is not the leadership changes, but the crazy amount of high level grind that it seemingly takes to make progress. And I agree with you on that.

But just saying "Oh well, make 30 alts and cookie clicker Leadership" isn't a solution. You can't possibly expect new players to feel good about needing to do something crazy like that to feel like they're advancing, can you?

Do you feel good when you tell your friends that "all" they need to do to advance is to farm a silly profession on dozens of different toons for hours each week, then use what extra time they have left over to actually play the game?

The honest truth is the current state of the economy WITH leadership isn't and never was sustainable.

The game needs to be fun and fulfilling through gameplay, not grindplay. And we're not there. But trying to figure that out WITH Leadership in the state it is won't help.

People need to stop wasting energy gnashing their teeth over the leadership changes, and start putting out more and more suggestions on how to balance out the grind of the game with systems that are more fun. A few players have already put out a lot of good ideas, like:

1) Reducing the cost of items in the Wondrous Bazaar, including Marks of Potency, Cubes of Augmentation, and Dungeon Keys

2) Removing the need for duplicate enchantments when refining ALL enchantments, including weapons and armor

3) Significantly reducing the cost to upgrade mounts and companions

4) Significantly reducing transmutation costs

5) Adding Stronghold vouchers back to Leadership to keep some value to the profession, including AD vouchers

6) Removing pure AD costs from Profession tasks, like reinforcement kits

7) Adding BoE gear drops back to dungeons

Those are just a few of the great ideas I've seen getting buried in these threads.

And so I ask you, would you prefer to have the current state of the game, with all the crazy high costs and insane AD requirements, and then play cookie clicker with Leadership?

Or would you be happy to see Leadership (like the rest of the professions) as something optional and those pain points of grind removed?

Which path is better for the long term future of the game?

This comes across to me , and many of my quicly dwindling friends as...."you are getting screwed, what is more important , complaining about the pain of getting screwed, or trying to suggest ways to mitigate the pain."

In the end , you are still getting screwed.

regenerde

ogarious said:

regenerde said:

Well, as allready mentioned, some people here, Devs included, might get it, when they take a look at the player numbers next week, and that might be the wake up call they need to actually start listening to the community...

Yeah, right.....Caterday happened. We got a badge out of it.

They will ride this ship into the ground without second guessing any decisions being made. No matter what the player numbers of the game say.

Worse comes to worse they'll just close the game down and move on elsewhere.

The only real way you will see change is if there is some sort of lawsuit posted against Cryptic/PWE. And I don't see that happening. The people here just don't have it in them to fight for this game. And honestly, I wouldn't think it would be worth it.

We have to wait and see, but i also doubt that they will alter their course.
They just remove the AD from Leadership, and then start or continue working on Underdark.

From then, all we will see is blogging and streaming about how great Underdark will be.
And the threads about the change will be closed or moved out of sight...

Mod Edit: Nothing is getting closed or removed unless it violates the forum rules...like the quote appended to this post. Let's keep it civil, please

aandrethegiant

skalt112 said:

ironzerg79 said:

1) Reducing the cost of items in the Wondrous Bazaar, including Marks of Potency, Cubes of Augmentation, and Dungeon Keys

2) Removing the need for duplicate enchantments when refining ALL enchantments, including weapons and armor

3) Significantly reducing the cost to upgrade mounts and companions

4) Significantly reducing transmutation costs

5) Adding Stronghold vouchers back to Leadership to keep some value to the profession, including AD vouchers

6) Removing pure AD costs from Profession tasks, like reinforcement kits

7) Adding BoE gear drops back to dungeons

Those are just a few of the great ideas I've seen getting buried in these threads.

Agree wholeheartedly. Now I'd add removing the bogus 150 account limit and a better currency to negate forced PvE/PvP in order to max Stronghold and you can tie this puppy up and deliver to Dev Team

regenerde

The quote was from "The X Files", and it discribed the current situation just perfect.

This change is just another hit aimed towards regular players, and not against botters.
Botters will continue to farm, whatever they farm, and sell it for AD.
If any Mod or Dev has a problem with that statement, i don't have a problem with proving it... just meet me at Neverdeath Graveyard, at the entrance to "Ghost Stories"...

Unless there are updates to the preview server or we see the official patch notes, i can only point to the fact, that AD is being removed from Leadership, without any compensation at all, or even any change to the whole AD price system.

Besides
http://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1191873/bonus-companions-not-account-wide
was also closed, and since then nothing new about that issue.
It's not that far fetched, that something similar will happen to this topic, when AD is removed from Leadership...

strous1

regenerde said:

The quote was from "The X Files", and it discribed the current situation just perfect.

This change is just another hit aimed towards regular players, and not against botters.
Botters will continue to farm, whatever they farm, and sell it for AD.
If any Mod or Dev has a problem with that statement, i don't have a problem with proving it... just meet me at Neverdeath Graveyard, at the entrance to "Ghost Stories"...

Unless there are updates to the preview server or we see the official patch notes, i can only point to the fact, that AD is being removed from Leadership, without any compensation at all, or even any change to the whole AD price system.

Agreed 100%.

Have yet to recover from mod 6 without spending any rl $.

regenerde

That might explain, why they're not blogging and streaming about Underdark, like they did about Stronghold...

raistlinmajere00

Ah, I remember when I got my first toon's leadership to 20. Took me a long while. Main reason i got it to 20 was to get the 'General' title, kuz I thought it looked cool. The extra professions task for rad was just a nice bonus. Knew there were bots out there to farm leadership on several toons at the same time, but dear lawd I did not have the time for that. Just wanted to play the game and get cool gear with my friends.

ghoulz66

They nerfed the time it takes to grind ADs ingame. That move after leadership makes zero sense. Does PWE simply just want to milk money out of a couple more players before the game dies out? Kill it off, move on to the next cash cow.....

kreatyve

I would like to remind everyone that "I quit" comments are prohibited on the forums, as is dev bashing (for more obvious reasons). The "I quit" comments are considered spam and have been removed. Sorry.

jcharais01

ironzerg79 said:

So my question is this. Was leadership a fun aspect of the game for people? Did people honestly enjoy the "cookie clicker" aspect of leadership? Or was it the results that made people happy?

In other words, do you feel the game would be more fun for people if:

A) Players were essentially required to run 20-30 or more Leadership toons to be able to play the game

or

b) Playing the game was more rewarding, and provided a more clear path to advancement

Because A is the status quo. If the planned leadership changes were reverted, it would essentially require players to continue to play "cookie clicker" for most of their time, in the hopes that what little slivers of time they had not managing a leadership army was more fun. As well as maintain a very easily exploitable profession for bots and AD farmers.

Or we can go do the path of B, and while it's filled with uncertainty, hope that the benefit to the overall "fun" of Neverwinter, as in just playing the actual game, becomes more rewarding.

Biased polls aside, that's the real choice we're looking at here.

Not all but a large majority of a MMORPG is all about learning the mechanics of the game and finding the most efficient way to increase your characters skills/power. Fun is something to be attained after you spend your time grinding your gear/levels out. When you consistently blow people up in PvP, thats fun. It makes the grind worth while.

Personally I took A because I could see the benefit of leadership months down the road. Picking B is null and void because you can't get to end game choosing that route. How do you expect to get 500k AD's to buy a coalescent ward, by dungeon runs? When your limited to 24k AD per day? Just one takes 21 days and you need a hundred of them. Unless they come up with alternate ways to ear AD and increase the limit of what you can get in a day, and also lower prices I would just stick with option A. For people who don't like it they can go the B route. No one is force to making a leadership army it is done by choice.

kemi1984

greyloche said:

The changes, as written by Goatshark, will affect bots for about a week. They will quickly overcome the limits and adapt as usual. The changes, as written by Goatshark, will affect players for much longer.

you need to look at the reason Bots are in the game and approach the fix from that angle.

bots are in the game to make the following main bottleneck easier to overcome.

The current artifact system is broken. the amount of RP needed to get to BiS is too much given the ways we have to generate it.

Dragon hoard Enchants were a fantastic way for a LOT of us to get our equipment upgraded. but they were botted and RP was selling for WAY too cheap on the AH. to fix that you did something silly. you nerfed the DHE into the dirt. They are so bad i have removed mine and sold them the very next day on the AH. i've even gotten emails from the guy that bought them asking if i sold him a lemon. I'm glad neverwinter doesn't have lemon laws. The proper fix would have been to make all RP generated by the DHE BoA.

by making the RP scarce for the average player but still available in quantity by the masses of botters you put money in their pocket. what you should have done is make sure it was available to players with not too much effort which would have hindered the ability of botters to make money.

This one thing would have done more to hurt botters than all the other silly stuff you have done.

but, it gets better. lets do two things.

one of the reason people farm AD from professions is to buy RP from the botters.

so, lets hit them with a 1-2 punch.

1: make DHEs drop like before. but make them BoA
2: remove AD from professions and let it drop RP stuff thats also BoA.

but hold on, with less AD its still expensive to upgrade the stuff because of the upgrade process and the cost of GMoPs and Coals. So players will still buy AD from third party sites because its cheaper and it will remove money from you guys. So lets go for the knockout punch.

1: make DHEs drop like before. but make them BoA
2: remove AD from professions and let it drop RP stuff thats also BoA.
3: drop the cost of Coals and GMoPs and also maybe even remove the requirement to have 1 enchant of similar value to raise the effectiveness of an enchant.


Now what do players need botters for. the AD we generate will go further, we have the stuff we need to upgrade our stuff. its still takes a LOT of RP so people will still spend money to get there fast. and since they are progressing in the game they might spend money on stuff like dyes/costumes/companions and other zen store stuff (because they aren't giving it all to the botters for AD.

you win, the players win, the botters lose. Its always better to look at the underlying reason behind an action and fix that than to keep trying, and failing, to fix a bunch of symptoms.

Sorry for the long quote but OMG THIS !!! I've voted for:

1: make DHEs drop like before. but make them BoA
2: remove AD from professions and let it drop RP stuff thats also BoA.

for soo long. If only we would be able to get the BoA DH drops

kargister

The problem is that by building Leadership and taking the time to do so I invested in something that no longer exists. Fine as is, but the least they could do is allow us to change Leadership into something else. As it stands they just took a rather large timesink away and gave nothing in return.

regenerde

Botters can farm profession nodes, botters can use any profession to still get AD from there.

3: remove all valuable rewards from professions, or make all profession rewards BoA.

myles08807

I accept that all the effort I put into Leadership for my account toons will be greatly reduced in value: Does anyone honestly believe that an announcement of this magnitude can spring from anything but a decision already made? Nothing we say here will change that, and we have to move on from this huge change.

However...

I would appreciate it if some compensatory adjustments were made to the non-AD rewards given by Leadership in concert with the nerf. BtA refining items, with a statistically puny shot at a GMoPot, would go a long way towards soothing the burn, and could not possibly impact the botting situation or the economy to any great extent. (Yeah, I know that a surplus of BtA income means that identical non-bound items found will end up on the AH, but it would be a tiny fraction of today's market share.)

I would also like to see the contents of the various chests and barrels of goods updated. Leadership takes a bloody long time to level, and having a level 60+ toon opening a Leadership reward and getting healing pots that would have been useful thirty levels back is frankly ridiculous. How about level-appropriate potions, and a wider variety of same, not just healing potions? How about including an up-to-date list of professional resources in the RNG for every chest?

I'll be here through this...maybe not the happiest camper, but I'll be here.

instynctive

I don't have a "leadership army." In fact, only 2 of my characters have even bothered delving into Leadership tasks. In fact, after a MONTH of making it only halfway from level 19 to 20, I put Leadership on the shelf so that I could level up another profession so I could at least open up another slot. Once I hit level 25 on three other professions, I returned to Leadership, and have made about enough RAD to give myself a nice little supplement, but it's not the driving force behind me having the Leadership profession on one of my characters.

Granted, I cranked up leadership on another character so I could "farm" those little 400 RAD tasks, but whatever.. I figure since it's getting nerfed, I might as well stock up a little. Although, that character makes more RAD per day invoking than on Leadership.

I love the idea of gaining AD by actually *playing* the game, because that's what I do. I play the game. I run dungeons and skirmishes. I grind for stuff for the SH. I go off and do something random "just because".

If removing AD from Leadership helps combat botters and whatever, I'm all for it.

And for the folks who are all up in arms about the investment they've made in their "leadership armies, I am truly sorry you're feeling slighted. On the plus side, you can probably auction off all your assets for a decent price. I know that when they add more RP to Leadership tasks that I'll be in the market for more Leadership assets. :-)

Unknown

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angrysprite

I still have 7 million I've been building-up over the last couple months. Ain't spending any of it if I can avoid it. Call me AD Hoarder. I have the funniest feeling in my gut I won;t be the only one.

theycallmetomu

I recently burned a lot of AD on GMOPs due to x2 RP, and now feel like a total sucker. I was heavily invested in zen, because I figured "eh, prices will drop a little due to 2x RP but they'll recover" but with this announcement, it's anyone's guess.

Right now though, due to future expected deflation, you can bet no one is going to want to spend AD, which will lead to a general recession in the ingame economy.

Add me to the voice of people who agree with the concept, but who demand better options for solo players. NWO started as a very solo friendly game; it's absolutely asinine to not make sure there are valid options for us solo players.

schietindebux

such a simple question, so much words, what are you discussing?
leadership only makes ppl to play on their handy and make money, without taking part in the game

I play this game and do my AD with dailies, leadership is 10% from what i earn, only a sideeffekt, doesn´t help much having 3 chars
and the ammount you can earn by playing this game is ok, noone can tell me that he is not able to form groups to run the dungeons, in case you can´t play neverwinter but only do AH trading there´s no help , search for a game that simulates a "virtual economy" and have fun
every dungeon is 3-5k ad+overload enchants or random drops+ rp that drop and much more you can sell, on top VIP grants you one key a day from rank 1 thats extra-AD about 30-50k a day....stop crying
if you want you can do 100k AD+ a day with ease
noone wants you to earn 4mio AD a day thats BS, everyone knows it
no need to be maxed with your char, if you want to be maxed pay for it
have fun with your leadership armies and do not complain about investing so much zen in absolutely senseless numbers of alts...50+ chars, lol
its nothing more than a sick side effekt you run after

theycallmetomu

Actually, looking at the preview shard ... holy HAMSTER that was poorly implemented.

If you're going to remove AD from the leadership tasks, you seriously need to adjust the non-AD rewards substantially, and/or modify the time each task takes.

For instance, the level 25 leadership task is 100% worse than the level 23 task.

vida44

Why don't they just make a feature where Leadership professions (as they are now) that provide AD are unlocked for each day only if you have successfully completed a dungeon the previous day on at least 1 of your toons (you can accumulate it per 7 chars for up to seven straight days). People can do one dungeon per day, BOTs can't. Everything stays the same for people who play with one char or more, and when it comes to BOTs they can't do AD farming on Leadership since they would actually have to play a dungeon with other players who would not tolerate inactivity in Dungeons and kick them.
At least an idea. But I know the people implementing these things don't read comments so.

feanor70118

schietindebux said:

such a simple question, so much words, what are you discussing?
leadership only makes ppl to play on their handy and make money, without taking part in the game

I play this game and do my AD with dailies, leadership is 10% from what i earn, only a sideeffekt, doesn´t help much having 3 chars
and the ammount you can earn by playing this game is ok, noone can tell me that he is not able to form groups to run the dungeons, in case you can´t play neverwinter but only do AH trading there´s no help , search for a game that simulates a "virtual economy" and have fun
every dungeon is 3-5k ad+overload enchants or random drops+ rp that drop and much more you can sell, on top VIP grants you one key a day from rank 1 thats extra-AD about 30-50k a day....stop crying
if you want you can do 100k AD+ a day with ease
noone wants you to earn 4mio AD a day thats BS, everyone knows it
no need to be maxed with your char, if you want to be maxed pay for it
have fun with your leadership armies and do not complain about investing so much zen in absolutely senseless numbers of alts...50+ chars, lol
its nothing more than a sick side effekt you run after

1) Dungeons are BORING. The reason to grind dungeons now is to get enough seals to buy armor. Once you'e done that, there's no reason players should be required to continue doing the same stultifying boring thing day after day. Especially since most of the dungeons were removed for no reason whatsoever in mod 6.
2) VIP is completely immaterial. The point of this discussion is that the devs are (more than ever, which is saying a lot) blatantly lying about their motivations and giving the shaft to legitimate players. You have to pay for VIP. And when 60-80% of the AD goes out of the economy, as it will after Thursday, that 30-50k/day will become 6-8 in a hurry. Please familiarize yourself with the concept of deflation.
3) Actually, it's many time more difficult to form groups for dungeons now than it was in, say, mod 4, when there were a large variety of dungeons, many more players because Cryptic hadn't taken a long list of actions to alienate them, and a reasonable path for players to reach BiS without having to rely on buying from botters or leadership armies of any size. Back then, you could just queue. Now, you have to wait around for up to 20 minutes until someone who actually plays DC or a healer paladin finally become available.
4) No, no one should earn 4 million AD/day. However, when you've reached the point of full R8 enchantments, maxed artifact gear and artifacts, you'll find you need about 200k/day to advance in any perceptible fashion.

If they want to rescale the economy, decreasing every last AD sink by 90%, to make this new change truly affordable (and to make botting profitless by the way), that would actually make sense. As it is, this is just stealing from us and telling us it's for our own good. Blaming bots is merely micturating upon our legs and telling us it's precipitation.

theycallmetomu

They should definitely lower the cost of fixed cost items.

schietindebux

1) what is is invoking with 50 toons in a row? ....braindead, depends on what seems to be more stupid, so arguimg that way why playing this grinding game at all?
2) VIP is no investion, pay once get one key a day for free thats cool and a compensation for most ppl
3) prices are absurd in AH imo
4) forming a group for eTOS takes me 5min, 30min later i have +/- 10k AD,
5) finally they should and will adjust leadership later I guess and they will probably reform some things about AD you can earn IN GAME, so a community grow that PLAYS the game actually and does sit in the capital on their back switching through their leadership army, sure doing so noone wnats to run dungeons
what is your most enjoayable thing to do in an mmo? invoking?

plasticbat

People will continue to do invoking and continue to do leadership for different reasons.
Doing invoking, leadership and doing dungeons is not mutual exclusive.
People did both and will continue to do both (if they stay in this game).

The only difference is they do X for reason B instead of reason A.