I think TRs are in a decent spot at the moment; much better than last mod. I think SE is fine; a lot of other classes (like GF, GWF, and CW) have similar burst potential.
I think TRs are in a decent spot at the moment; much better than last mod. I think SE is fine; a lot of other classes (like GF, GWF, and CW) have similar burst potential.
Now if we could nerf paladins...
With a difference: you can dodge their burst. And CW/GF can dodge/block SE. And all you need is your shift mechanic. GWF can't. It's unavoidable. Same SW.
You can dodge ibs and it deals no damage. Can dodge their powers and dailies with reasonable skill.
SE goes right through all gwf and SW defenses. You can litrally pop DC artifact, close your eyes and press the button vs those two classes.
So it's similar burst but SE burst is a 100% hit no matter what, my burst can be dodged (and quite easily).
An undodgeable nuke and the only case of undodgeable move in the whole game? Seriously?
If this is the gameplay you guys want, fine by me. Remove dodges for everyone then. So we hit with no chance to fail. Just button meshing. Skill-less gameplay at its apex.
SE is not fine. As long as there are the hasty AP generators in game, the piercing damage must go away. It is so frustrating to recieve 2 50-60k SE in a matter of 10 seconds or so, it is not fun, it's class excluding. It obliterates some other classes and, due to that, it has to change. Paladin DJ was changed due to 70k crits.
I my opinion, remove piercing damage from TR, increase SE base damage and that's it.
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
It's avoided often enough as it is by people who are paying attention, is one of very few ways to do any serious damage to the tankier classes in the game outside of Wheel, and the TR's former main source of piercing damage (Shadowy Opportunity) has already been nerfed to the ground with the 'bugfix' they put through in the recent patching.
Two of the classes have absolutely no way to "avoid" being hit by SE. And giving them mechanics to do so is a lot more effort than just fixing the thing that's actually broken, which is SE.
They should just make both Shadowy Opportunity and Shocking Execution fully respect damage reduction and Tenacity, full stop. Then TRs would just have to stack some Armor Penetration like everyone else in order to do "serious damage" to the tankier classes.
Simultaneously, they should remove the 100% crit in stealth thing and have it double crit chance while in stealth instead so TRs would have to stack some crit too, like everyone else.
1. SE ■ needs revert back to "damage based on opponent HP missing" mechanic
■ the damage must respect HALF of target defenses
■ the "instant AP refill when killing with SE" must be deleted
■ the targeting distance must be lowered to 15' (melee range)
● the base damage of the power needs to be slightly increased as compensation
● the activation speed of the power needs to be slightly increased as compensation
[Notes]
(1) The base damage of the power should be slightly increased, because after respecting the defenses the expectancy of the damage from SE would probably be drastically lowered, possibly even lower than some encounter powers. Therefore, increase the base damage of the power slightly so a TR can expect at least X amount of damage stably, and then be more proactive as to add extra damage that is dependant on the percentage of target HP missing.
(2) Most melee powers in game have a 10~15' range. Limiting SE activation range down to 15' would mean any reactionary defensive movement would immediately pull the target out of effective range. This makes the current activation time inadequate for the TR as any shift+movement would then instantly move anyone outside the effect range, making the power useless in combat. Therefore, it is appropriate to speed up the activation time so that literally, the target has one chance, immediate reaction required to avoid it.
2. SO ■ the damage buff needs to be totally removed (yes, it's still too strong)
■ should be changed to 1.5/3/4.5/6/7.5% stealth depletion factor subtracted when using at wills
■ melee attacks from stealth, will double the above bonus
[Notes]
(1) With enough power builds, SO still provides a piercing damage that is quite strong. When you factor in the ease of making this trait take effect, even with the nerf SO still makes the Sabo TR the highest, hardest hitting TR in game.
(2) An Executioner or a Scoundrel may have stronger damage buffs, but how often can they make use of it when you compare it to a Sabo TR that repeats stealthed-CoS attacks indefinitiely, that is guaranteed to crit, that is guaranteed to add in modest amount of damage that cannot be mitigated by any means?
(a) Scoundrel damage buffs take effect with the application of CC, and all meaningful CCs are encounter powers, which pulls them out of stealth. Hence, Scoundrel damage buffs usually start applying when the TR is pulled OUTSIDE stealth -- where it doesn't receive the combat advantage bonus, nor the auto-crit bonus, meaning at least 50~60% of the attacks will be non-crit by chance, also meaning at least 75% weaker than stealthed attacks.
(b) Executioner damage buffs, the strongest ones, are one-shot effect. After one attack it dissipates until the next restealth, and since the Executioner does not have any stealth-duration related buffs, the amount of attacks from stealth are limited, hence limiting its overall DPS as well as attack opportunities.
(c) In comparison, despite the SO nerf, Sabos still retain permastealth. Every CoS attack is applied SO, and also buffed by the LostM set bonus. The damage of a single CoS shot may be lower than other attacks a Scoundrel or Executioner might deal, but the frequency of the attacks, the ease of management, the safety of ranged attacks from invisibility..? No comparison at all.
Due to these reasons, the MI/Sabos are still the strongest TRs by far. They are the easiest and safest to play with, and gain highest results with minimal risk involved.
(3) Therefore, I propose SO be changed to a self-buff that reduces the stealth depletion effect while using at-wills. The reasons are as follows:
(a) with the total removal of SO (and supposed nerf to the LostM set), the Sabo damage will finally fall below Executioners or Scoundrels, making it somewhat resemble the old permastealth that were deeply frustrating, and yet had ticklish damage (in mod2, a permaTR would actually meet a point where his CoS damage cannot overcome the natural regen effect of a GWF as he loses HP)
(b) therefore, the Sabo should be compensated with much longer duration of stealth while attacking from it, with each at-wills depleting only 7.5% of stealth meter per attack, instead of the current 7.5%.
(c) the catch is this: with the suggested changes, when the Sabo comes close and fires off a melee at-will, it will have 0 stealth depletion. This may sound OP in both PvP/PvE, but it is not.
(c-1) For one thing, this will make combat management extremely pleasant in PvE in that now Sabos will be able to use the "old-style" DF attacks from stealth with high damage, without worrying depletion. Like said, things were ALREADY like this for 4 mods prior to mod5 and it was taken for granted. It's not doing any new levels of unseen OP thing. PvE players will be able to slot all three attacks for damage, and still be able to stay within stealth and fire away strong DF attacks.
(c-2) In PvP, this means if the Sabo risks coming close to attack range for melee, then he can manage to strike with powerful attacks like DF and still retain stealth, somewhat akin to what was possible in mod2~4. But coming in close range comes with risks. Even if he is CC-immune he isn't damage immune. Players may strike back even while being hit with DF, may apply a fecal-matter worth of DoTs while the attack is being made so that after the attack ends stealth may deplete, and even while the melee attacks don't deplete stealth, other retaliatory attacks from the receiving end still depletes stealth. If the Sabo TR takes stuff like Tenacious Concealment to become immune from attack-damage to stealth then he has to invest one Class Feature slot, making him switch out his previously favored feature.
(c-3) As a whole, it fits the "higher damage = higher risks" rule of thumb. Sabos will deal only pathetic damage if he sticks to safe CoS attacks, but he will deal much more potent, old-style DF attack damage when he is close and takes risks. The reward for such risk taking will be higher damage output and zero stealth-depletion from attacks. This risk also gives a chance for the receiving end to find moments where the Sabo TR is exposed within visual range for a lengthier amount of time.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Some people really having trouble to understand this, GWF always takes full damage from SE and there is absolutely no chance to reduce or dodge it. OK maybe it's not 1-shot but after 80k dmg I will only have 15k hp left (if it was full hp) and there is no way to avoid this. Seriously how in the world this can be called "balanced"?
Maybe Piercing damage should only ignore DR gained from AC, then its more effective vs tanks, while less effective, but still overall good, vs other classes. Not sure if that'd work in PvE though because I assume in PvE mobs get their DR from Defense, otherwise terrors not really doing much.
ThESE changes sounds reasonable but after that there is no higher damage output compare to the risks.
If you want higher damage output, then you should be playing some other path. The entire idea is to give a significant demerit as balance to the capability of the Sabo to be "impossible to catch." A Sabo would be absolutely capable of keeping the enemy under check, node contesting, being a source of frustration, throwing people off focus and keep announcing itself as a potential threat.
But in turn, it NEEDS to struggle to really take something down to kill it. If the Sabo has access to strong enough weapons with higher damage output, then what's the point of playing any other class like the scoundrel or executioner?
3rd Duelist's Flurry is hard to land right now, single move can avoid the most powerful hit unless they want face tank that attack.
Jump DF to land only the 3rd attack. This was the basic of basics since the olden days, which was briefly forgotten after mod5 appeared (which probably means anyone started playing TRs since mod5 would probably have no idea what I'm talking about -- but any veteran from before mod5 knows what I'm talking about).
With depletion gone as a factor, the Sabos could be easily be using this pattern again.
After initial attack, most TR doesnt have enough damage tools to actually kill the target unless over geared.
I personally not agree with "reduces the stealth depletion effect", this will leads to another QQ thread called "Please tone down the perm stealth", their views often look like this:
"TR is OP since it has high damage, high cc resistance and best defense skill"
And you cannot maintain stealth while you active DF, they still can hit you if direction is correct.
See to above. People used to do it all the time.
I have tested with my guild member in icewind without pets. Equal geared TR 3K vs GWF 3K
The common situation is:
1. I slotted first strike, and hit him 80000~85000 in the initial SE, he active TAB, hidden dagger and then attack me.
The options I have are:
active ITC and use DF to face roll, remember, at will without stealth = no damage at all. especially DF is small but fast attacks, imagine GWF with a perfect negation.
CoS, again, only useful with stealth, "one with the shadow" require encounter hit.
Then hidden dagger / Come and get it > Frontline Surge > Daring Shout + Slam.
TR dead.
Smoking bomb first, and try to re stealth and waiting for another opportunity.
This can be considered the most efficient way to eliminate the target. And I do believe most GWF will complain about this,
If TR is fast to land DF on GWF with minor damages to ensure GWF left few K HP. then finish him with COS
But GWF can use unstoppable to get out and run away from continue attack and go for potions or clerics/OP. or use Avalanche of Steel to avoid further attack.
My friend use Waters of Elah'zad after first attack, and Then hidden dagger / Come and get it > Frontline Surge > Daring Shout + Slam.
Here is the problem, basically I cannot face a GWF, I either run away or die. even the first attack is huge.
2. I slotted SO, without first strike
Since there is no first strike, it is stupid to use SE in the first step.
Then the common situation is I try to use at will COS attack him while stealth
As the tooltip stand clear: 2200 - 2500 damage
Even slot first strike the damage is normally like this:
with first strike
[15:12] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Cloud of Steel deals 5882 (5602) Physical Damage to Target Dummy.
[15:12] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lostmauth's Vengeance deals 5747 (5473) Physical Damage to Target Dummy.
without first strike
[15:14] [Combat (Self)] Your Cloud of Steel deals 1450 (1381) Physical Damage to Target Dummy.
[15:14] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Cloud of Steel deals 3307 (3149) Physical Damage to Target Dummy.
without first strike / with stealth
[15:16] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Cloud of Steel deals 5318 (5065) Physical Damage to Target Dummy.
[15:16] [Combat (Self)] Your Shadowy Opportunity deals 1575 Physical Damage to Target Dummy.
Additional damage:
[15:16] [Combat (Self)] Your Elven Ferocity deals 21000 (20000) Arcane Damage to Target Dummy.
There is no way to hit him from 85000+ HP to 40000 HP in order to land a SE
3. I use doze, smoking bomb, ITC
He jump out from the smoking bomb area and I successful land a doze on him.
Then what? DF? Please see 1
Again. Ask any TR player since mod2 who used to fight GWFs to a standstill. We used to do it ALL the time.
1 shot 80k with equal gears Tr means he slot first attack class feat. Which provide additional 60% damage buff.(15% * 4)
But after this attack, he won't be able to deal similar damage again after entering the battle mode.
You will be OK with this TR since he either:
Run away
Find a tool to restealth and escape from battle mode then active first attack again.
This is no need to discuss.
For a Sabo, you fight in an odd, odd manner. I'm not certain whether I need to actually answer your questions, or suggest something to check upon just at what level TR gameplay you are at -- no insult intended.
All I can say is, if you have any member who has a TR and remembers how we used to do it old school, ask him. That would be the easiest way to explain. Or come to the TR forums and put ask us in a seperate thread, then we'll probably be able to answer there.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
3rd Duelist's Flurry is hard to land right now, single move can avoid the most powerful hit unless they want face tank that attack.
It's same for IBS, that high burst damage skill of GWF people complain about except that you need to stack many buffs before using IBS.
You are gonna hit 85k with one single button and not able to kill the enemy? I think you should consider deleting your character and leave the game for good. You can try facebook games, I heard people like them.
Plus i'LL repeat again: it's not damage itself but the fact it's piercing and unavoidable by gwfs and sws.
It's totally effortless. Just pop DC artifact, wait, press a button. For a 85k hit.
You can deal 80k+ se if you want, but dodgeable. So if you hit my shift with it, you are punished.
Gwf hits are powerful but dodgeable. You want a powerful hit to stay 100% undodgeable and piercing on them.
Seriously, the need to time a nuke at least...no? Just press button to profit?
But i bet if one enemy got and attack that could hit you hard 100% through dodge roll or ITC, you would find it unfair.
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
This could happen back in mod5 when CAGI/DS was hitting 20~30k+ dmg and ppl only had 40k~50K hp or so
Now in mod6, those attacks only hit like 10~20k and people has 100k HP... nobody should die from this combo... you wanna double check...?
Not only is piercing damage a problem for GWFs and SWs that have no active defense against the piercing damage attacks coming from the TR, but this is also a problem for the TR class itself in that the build paths are grossly imbalanced, even with the SO nerf.
SO nerf was a step in the right direction, but it's still too high. Yes, it does less damage than before, but still, by itself SO is such a powerful damage buff that applies to ALL at-wills and becomes a dominating factor of damage for Sabo TRs.
Compared to Executioners or Scoundrels, nobody can deny that the Sabo can pace itself lightly and that is enough to keep it within permastealth while continuously repeating its attacks from range, which, as mentioned before, and I repeat, has the CA applied from stealth (+15% or higher), has auto-crit applied (+75% or higher), has the CoS damage stacking applied, which also has the LostM set bonus applied, and with artifact equipment +9% damage plus a 25% slow applied.
In other words, for a simpler explanation for those who've never played a TR, the Scoundrel or Executioner can put up higher burst damage in between the intervals of stealth where it spends most of its time positioning oneself or planning out an escape route, and at most any attacks from stealth are limited to 3~4. In most cases, since the stealth duration was nerfed, using any kind of at-will at all is something scoundrels or execs just don't want to do nowadays because it cuts down on your time to set up the "exit from stealth" burst, which deals high damage.
Compared to this, even with the SO nerf the Sabo can still steadily and endlessly puts up damage which is impossible to mitigate or even deflect, from the relative safety of distance. This adds to up (still) highest DPS and highest survivability of all TRs.
...
Compare this to the old-school TRs, during the days when players like keltz0r or jerkface or Don Blacksheep or sicarius were all active -- they only had limited charges with the CoS shots, which was used supplementary, so to deal damage and to win they always came close, took the risks, and landed those jump-DF with perfection through all that practice and experience.
They didn't have piercing damage back then. They didn't have the amount of neat-o powers like OWTS back then. But they still fought to stand-still against the GWFs which were like demigods in those days, with all that mega-power damage, jaw-droppingly tough defenses, 2~3 consecutive chain prones. That's "skill."
Compare that to just what kind of "skill" it takes for the Sabos these days... to buy the LostM set from the AH, buy a WoE and pop it in combat, and then flinging CoS from invisibility and from range, hefty attacks that the receiving end cannot dodge, cannot deflect, cannot mitigate with DR...
No disrespect to the best of Sabo TRs (you guys will probably defeat guys like me whether or not the Sabo is nerfed), but I don't call that skill. It's just a practiced, mechanical routine with highest damage output and yet, involves minimum risk at the same time, coming from synergetic features that activate/proc automatically without any active player input, which is eye=poppingly difficult to overcome or retaltiate, for other classes. That's not skill.
Things like this mess with player choices and drops population from other TR builds. TR players are so easily lured into just one big horde of Sabos, which limits the variety and vibrance from us TR players, and at the same time turns up mass-produced horde of skill-less people depending on problematic mechancis and this shakes the PvP scene even further. It increases the enmity and hatred for us TR players, and as a matter of fact, it also drops the average skill level of the TR players to such low and abysmal degree that aside from the 'veteran' group I've known before mod5, every other TR popping up seems to be totally devoid of the concepts which makes the TR important in PvP.
Sabos don't need that damage. If they want piercing then they can slot Oppressive Darkness -- a case of piercing damage that's actually implemented in the CORRECT way. The amazing, jaw-dropping survivability is by itself all the rewards this path needs to receive.
Whatever difficulties and anxieties it has with actually dealing damage and trying to kill someone, is something the TR player needs to handle and overcome himself, individually, by taking risks, learning and mastering all the tactics and moves, to land big attacks -- and even if those big attacks aren't effective, it's got no choice but to repeat it -- BECAUSE THAT'S THE DARNED CHOICE THEY MADE WHEN BECOMING A SABO -- they chose safety and resilience over power and damage.
There's no reason for the game to compensate for it by giving some ridiculous way to kill people, and that's the EXACT reason why I compared the Paladings to the Sabo TRs. Becoming the infallible, unconquerable survivalist is what they chose to be, then why in the world are they asking for big-arsh damage to be able to kill anything?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Plus i'LL repeat again: it's not damage itself but the fact it's piercing and unavoidable by gwfs and sws.
It's totally effortless. Just pop DC artifact, wait, press a button. For a 85k hit.
You can deal 80k+ se if you want, but dodgeable. So if you hit my shift with it, you are punished.
Gwf hits are powerful but dodgeable. You want a powerful hit to stay 100% undodgeable and piercing on them.
Seriously, the need to time a nuke at least...no? Just press button to profit?
But i bet if one enemy got and attack that could hit you hard 100% through dodge roll or ITC, you would find it unfair.
I've never seen Shocking Execution doing 85k in all of my time as a TR in Mod 6, so I'm going to call nonsense on that. Please prove claims like this with screenshots or video footage, before you expect anyone to take you seriously.
At around 7,500 power on my TR (2000+ IL), this skill is currently reporting a maximum damage of 11,878. I went ahead and screenshotted the total damage it does to a training dummy, so you can see how wrong you are.
Note how that's a critical hit, too (with additional Severity from the Executioner tree, I might add). So what kind of power and gear setup are we talking to reproduce 85k damage? 100% best in slot?
I eagerly await your proof. I wasn't even one hit killed by Shocking the other night from a wallet warrior with Rank 12's and BiS gear across the board, so I highly suspect you have nothing to show us.
With no disrespect, threnodic, I'm a low-power, high utility build that emphasizes in "fun" tactics... and I'm at 9.7k.
I'm not going to make any assumptions, and I don't want to insult you, but 7,500 power is ... ummm... like the "Little League" with kids swinging the bat, whereas the level of combat guys above are talking about, is more closer to MLB sluggers.
The problem with the forums is (if you're at the combat/pvp "league" I'm guessing you are currently at -- again, with no intention of disrespect), many people just don't know how high the mountain goes.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
With no disrespect, threnodic, I'm a low-power, high utility build that emphasizes in "fun" tactics... and I'm at 9.7k.
I'm not going to make any assumptions, and I don't want to insult you, but 7,500 power is ... ummm... like the "Little League" with kids swinging the bat, whereas the level of combat guys above are talking about, is more closer to MLB sluggers.
The problem with the forums is (if you're at the combat/pvp "league" I'm guessing you are currently at -- again, with no intention of disrespect), many people just don't know how high the mountain goes.
For a few weeks spent playing, I didn't think it was too shabby. Still, you're missing the point about as much as anyone has ever missed a point -- I showed that the skill is far from consistently doling out the kind of damage he claims, and merely used my current situation as an example. The most Power I've seen in Neverwinter so far was like 18-20k with near-perfect best in slot gear. Even assuming a critical from a Rogue, he's talking about more than quadrupling the sort of damage I'm doing with roughly double the Power on average. Those sorts of numbers don't make any sense.
I've taken hits from Shocking, from better-geared players -- I don't find it nearly as 'ZOMG NERF PLS' as he does.
That's not to say it might not be worth a look in the future, but there are far more pressing matters (Negation, Paladin exploits, perma-root HRs, etc.) before the Rogue should be a blip on the developer's horizon again.
Far more likely, this is a thinly veiled attempt at further nerfs to the Trickster Rogue (behind a façade of 'overpoweredness'), and not a truly constructive thread that's aiming to fix major problems in PvP.
Trust me or not dude. Will provide SS.
BiS TR 90k'ed me 2 times in a match while i was sprinting. Just passing by and pressing a button.
I know where it is gear fault.
In my case my fault, if you wanna call it that way, is i don't use negation/ don't have ad to go pnegation+. I use SF and lathander set.
Still, i have maxed tenacity with pvp rings too (double slot rings when i cannot fill them with rank 9-12 enchants is imho worst than 600 tenacity= 4%+ resistance on crit/damage/cc and 8% on DRI or so), scars feat, 35%+ deflect, 25% dr on burning gear, close to 100k hp. Average TR in my ilvl range hits me 50k SE no problem unavoidable. Also 60k+, bis 90k+.
Saber, bis gwf with tfey hits me 50k ibs crit. Difference? I can dodge it. And often do. And is bis.
BiS TR hits be 80-90k and best thing i can do is go leap- daggers-RS and keep my finger ready on leap, or they hit 100%.
It's doable but extremely unfair.
Regular geared pvp TR SE hits like saber daily or ibs, but is also unavoidable and has more range. So unless i switch to leap, the TR gets a 50k free hit while being able to dodge my nukes.
Fair?
What the hell is going on here, what happened to GWF players? Do recall the times when the class was op and then the time when it was weak, then the time it was great again ( intimidation ) and compare it all to the now. You will see the class is actually quite strong today. Yes, its gear dependent more than others but thats always been the case. All I see are GWF players complaining in every single thread. Grow a pair will ya
I'm pretty sure the point of discussion was, Shocking Execution has unfair advantage over the two classes that cannot dodge it, whilst already being unmitigatable. The performance of the current GWF meta (or SW, what have you) is irrelevant due to that there is one attack that can do unavoidable and indefensible burst damage. In retrospect, the earlier-module-cookie-cutter TR did have to spec as full executioners with Overrun Critical + First Strike, while today, you can expect the same results even from a TR of the factory-bred, mass-produced Sabo variety.
Seriously,
This isn't funny anymore,
Piercing-dmg have to be Removed or it should NOT ignore DR.
some People say to play a TR you need to be experienced or skilled,
But this is Absolutely wrong!
The only thing what TR do is "Charge for Daily", stealth spam cloud or artifact how ever,
simply because the daily is doing over 90k-70k DMG Base (1-Shot possibility )
Seriously this is the highest Dailies Power/DMG of all classes
i've ever meet,
The Problem is there no need to be good Geared or having high enchantments,
Simply because it! is Piercing, You Automatically dealt a massive DMG.
Low geared (nothing over R8 or Legendaries) TR is going with +70k-50k for 1x Daily
Good Geared TR's 100k-80k or 1-Shot possibility
So basically,
a TR just need to do 2 Dailys and you are Dead!,
is this how is should work?!
A Fight against TR:
TR come's and use straight SE daily, So You lost over -80% of HP,
Than TR jumping around spam cloud or whatever/artifac,
BAMM Next Daily and YOUR Dead!,
That's all,
What kind of gameplay is this?!
and it doesn't matter if he have good gear or not, Piercing dmg Boost every user massive!
This is not more Acceptable!!
Devs take a lot to Piercing dmg,
there's a Rework needed or Balance,
how ever it calls,
But definitely something need to happen!
Post edited by GranD on
<::::::[]==0 GwF 0==[]::::::> ● Still waiting for the promised Improvement ● xgrandz02
Not to be word-nitpicky on you, but "peircing" means to pierce armor, meaning ignore DR. So the part where you said piercing "should NOT ignore DR" is just politically incorrect. I see this in almost every other response and I've just had it.
Let's all just limit the nerf calls to "remove piercing" ok? Because if piercing didn't pierce armor, then it's not "piercing" per se, and we're talking about something else and you're giving me a headache.
Remove piercing, and increase base damage to compensate, or give piercing to everyone. Done deal.
Comments
Now if we could nerf paladins...
With a difference: you can dodge their burst. And CW/GF can dodge/block SE. And all you need is your shift mechanic. GWF can't. It's unavoidable. Same SW.
You can dodge ibs and it deals no damage. Can dodge their powers and dailies with reasonable skill.
SE goes right through all gwf and SW defenses. You can litrally pop DC artifact, close your eyes and press the button vs those two classes.
So it's similar burst but SE burst is a 100% hit no matter what, my burst can be dodged (and quite easily).
An undodgeable nuke and the only case of undodgeable move in the whole game? Seriously?
If this is the gameplay you guys want, fine by me. Remove dodges for everyone then. So we hit with no chance to fail. Just button meshing. Skill-less gameplay at its apex.
I my opinion, remove piercing damage from TR, increase SE base damage and that's it.
This, make sense!
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
■ needs revert back to "damage based on opponent HP missing" mechanic
■ the damage must respect HALF of target defenses
■ the "instant AP refill when killing with SE" must be deleted
■ the targeting distance must be lowered to 15' (melee range)
● the base damage of the power needs to be slightly increased as compensation
● the activation speed of the power needs to be slightly increased as compensation
[Notes]
(1) The base damage of the power should be slightly increased, because after respecting the defenses the expectancy of the damage from SE would probably be drastically lowered, possibly even lower than some encounter powers. Therefore, increase the base damage of the power slightly so a TR can expect at least X amount of damage stably, and then be more proactive as to add extra damage that is dependant on the percentage of target HP missing.
(2) Most melee powers in game have a 10~15' range. Limiting SE activation range down to 15' would mean any reactionary defensive movement would immediately pull the target out of effective range. This makes the current activation time inadequate for the TR as any shift+movement would then instantly move anyone outside the effect range, making the power useless in combat. Therefore, it is appropriate to speed up the activation time so that literally, the target has one chance, immediate reaction required to avoid it.
2. SO
■ the damage buff needs to be totally removed (yes, it's still too strong)
■ should be changed to 1.5/3/4.5/6/7.5% stealth depletion factor subtracted when using at wills
■ melee attacks from stealth, will double the above bonus
[Notes]
(1) With enough power builds, SO still provides a piercing damage that is quite strong. When you factor in the ease of making this trait take effect, even with the nerf SO still makes the Sabo TR the highest, hardest hitting TR in game.
(2) An Executioner or a Scoundrel may have stronger damage buffs, but how often can they make use of it when you compare it to a Sabo TR that repeats stealthed-CoS attacks indefinitiely, that is guaranteed to crit, that is guaranteed to add in modest amount of damage that cannot be mitigated by any means? (a) Scoundrel damage buffs take effect with the application of CC, and all meaningful CCs are encounter powers, which pulls them out of stealth. Hence, Scoundrel damage buffs usually start applying when the TR is pulled OUTSIDE stealth -- where it doesn't receive the combat advantage bonus, nor the auto-crit bonus, meaning at least 50~60% of the attacks will be non-crit by chance, also meaning at least 75% weaker than stealthed attacks. (b) Executioner damage buffs, the strongest ones, are one-shot effect. After one attack it dissipates until the next restealth, and since the Executioner does not have any stealth-duration related buffs, the amount of attacks from stealth are limited, hence limiting its overall DPS as well as attack opportunities. (c) In comparison, despite the SO nerf, Sabos still retain permastealth. Every CoS attack is applied SO, and also buffed by the LostM set bonus. The damage of a single CoS shot may be lower than other attacks a Scoundrel or Executioner might deal, but the frequency of the attacks, the ease of management, the safety of ranged attacks from invisibility..? No comparison at all. Due to these reasons, the MI/Sabos are still the strongest TRs by far. They are the easiest and safest to play with, and gain highest results with minimal risk involved.
(3) Therefore, I propose SO be changed to a self-buff that reduces the stealth depletion effect while using at-wills. The reasons are as follows:
(a) with the total removal of SO (and supposed nerf to the LostM set), the Sabo damage will finally fall below Executioners or Scoundrels, making it somewhat resemble the old permastealth that were deeply frustrating, and yet had ticklish damage (in mod2, a permaTR would actually meet a point where his CoS damage cannot overcome the natural regen effect of a GWF as he loses HP)
(b) therefore, the Sabo should be compensated with much longer duration of stealth while attacking from it, with each at-wills depleting only 7.5% of stealth meter per attack, instead of the current 7.5%.
(c) the catch is this: with the suggested changes, when the Sabo comes close and fires off a melee at-will, it will have 0 stealth depletion. This may sound OP in both PvP/PvE, but it is not.
(c-1) For one thing, this will make combat management extremely pleasant in PvE in that now Sabos will be able to use the "old-style" DF attacks from stealth with high damage, without worrying depletion. Like said, things were ALREADY like this for 4 mods prior to mod5 and it was taken for granted. It's not doing any new levels of unseen OP thing. PvE players will be able to slot all three attacks for damage, and still be able to stay within stealth and fire away strong DF attacks.
(c-2) In PvP, this means if the Sabo risks coming close to attack range for melee, then he can manage to strike with powerful attacks like DF and still retain stealth, somewhat akin to what was possible in mod2~4. But coming in close range comes with risks. Even if he is CC-immune he isn't damage immune. Players may strike back even while being hit with DF, may apply a fecal-matter worth of DoTs while the attack is being made so that after the attack ends stealth may deplete, and even while the melee attacks don't deplete stealth, other retaliatory attacks from the receiving end still depletes stealth. If the Sabo TR takes stuff like Tenacious Concealment to become immune from attack-damage to stealth then he has to invest one Class Feature slot, making him switch out his previously favored feature.
(c-3) As a whole, it fits the "higher damage = higher risks" rule of thumb. Sabos will deal only pathetic damage if he sticks to safe CoS attacks, but he will deal much more potent, old-style DF attack damage when he is close and takes risks. The reward for such risk taking will be higher damage output and zero stealth-depletion from attacks. This risk also gives a chance for the receiving end to find moments where the Sabo TR is exposed within visual range for a lengthier amount of time.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This is just great. I wish they actually do this.
Some people really having trouble to understand this, GWF always takes full damage from SE and there is absolutely no chance to reduce or dodge it. OK maybe it's not 1-shot but after 80k dmg I will only have 15k hp left (if it was full hp) and there is no way to avoid this. Seriously how in the world this can be called "balanced"?
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
If you want higher damage output, then you should be playing some other path. The entire idea is to give a significant demerit as balance to the capability of the Sabo to be "impossible to catch." A Sabo would be absolutely capable of keeping the enemy under check, node contesting, being a source of frustration, throwing people off focus and keep announcing itself as a potential threat.
But in turn, it NEEDS to struggle to really take something down to kill it. If the Sabo has access to strong enough weapons with higher damage output, then what's the point of playing any other class like the scoundrel or executioner?
Jump DF to land only the 3rd attack. This was the basic of basics since the olden days, which was briefly forgotten after mod5 appeared (which probably means anyone started playing TRs since mod5 would probably have no idea what I'm talking about -- but any veteran from before mod5 knows what I'm talking about).
With depletion gone as a factor, the Sabos could be easily be using this pattern again.
See to above. People used to do it all the time.
Again. Ask any TR player since mod2 who used to fight GWFs to a standstill. We used to do it ALL the time.
For a Sabo, you fight in an odd, odd manner. I'm not certain whether I need to actually answer your questions, or suggest something to check upon just at what level TR gameplay you are at -- no insult intended.
All I can say is, if you have any member who has a TR and remembers how we used to do it old school, ask him. That would be the easiest way to explain. Or come to the TR forums and put ask us in a seperate thread, then we'll probably be able to answer there.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It's same for IBS, that high burst damage skill of GWF people complain about except that you need to stack many buffs before using IBS.
You are gonna hit 85k with one single button and not able to kill the enemy? I think you should consider deleting your character and leave the game for good. You can try facebook games, I heard people like them.
It's totally effortless. Just pop DC artifact, wait, press a button. For a 85k hit.
You can deal 80k+ se if you want, but dodgeable. So if you hit my shift with it, you are punished.
Gwf hits are powerful but dodgeable. You want a powerful hit to stay 100% undodgeable and piercing on them.
Seriously, the need to time a nuke at least...no? Just press button to profit?
But i bet if one enemy got and attack that could hit you hard 100% through dodge roll or ITC, you would find it unfair.
Now in mod6, those attacks only hit like 10~20k and people has 100k HP... nobody should die from this combo... you wanna double check...?
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
SO nerf was a step in the right direction, but it's still too high. Yes, it does less damage than before, but still, by itself SO is such a powerful damage buff that applies to ALL at-wills and becomes a dominating factor of damage for Sabo TRs.
Compared to Executioners or Scoundrels, nobody can deny that the Sabo can pace itself lightly and that is enough to keep it within permastealth while continuously repeating its attacks from range, which, as mentioned before, and I repeat, has the CA applied from stealth (+15% or higher), has auto-crit applied (+75% or higher), has the CoS damage stacking applied, which also has the LostM set bonus applied, and with artifact equipment +9% damage plus a 25% slow applied.
In other words, for a simpler explanation for those who've never played a TR, the Scoundrel or Executioner can put up higher burst damage in between the intervals of stealth where it spends most of its time positioning oneself or planning out an escape route, and at most any attacks from stealth are limited to 3~4. In most cases, since the stealth duration was nerfed, using any kind of at-will at all is something scoundrels or execs just don't want to do nowadays because it cuts down on your time to set up the "exit from stealth" burst, which deals high damage.
Compared to this, even with the SO nerf the Sabo can still steadily and endlessly puts up damage which is impossible to mitigate or even deflect, from the relative safety of distance. This adds to up (still) highest DPS and highest survivability of all TRs.
...
Compare this to the old-school TRs, during the days when players like keltz0r or jerkface or Don Blacksheep or sicarius were all active -- they only had limited charges with the CoS shots, which was used supplementary, so to deal damage and to win they always came close, took the risks, and landed those jump-DF with perfection through all that practice and experience.
They didn't have piercing damage back then. They didn't have the amount of neat-o powers like OWTS back then. But they still fought to stand-still against the GWFs which were like demigods in those days, with all that mega-power damage, jaw-droppingly tough defenses, 2~3 consecutive chain prones. That's "skill."
Compare that to just what kind of "skill" it takes for the Sabos these days... to buy the LostM set from the AH, buy a WoE and pop it in combat, and then flinging CoS from invisibility and from range, hefty attacks that the receiving end cannot dodge, cannot deflect, cannot mitigate with DR...
No disrespect to the best of Sabo TRs (you guys will probably defeat guys like me whether or not the Sabo is nerfed), but I don't call that skill. It's just a practiced, mechanical routine with highest damage output and yet, involves minimum risk at the same time, coming from synergetic features that activate/proc automatically without any active player input, which is eye=poppingly difficult to overcome or retaltiate, for other classes. That's not skill.
Things like this mess with player choices and drops population from other TR builds. TR players are so easily lured into just one big horde of Sabos, which limits the variety and vibrance from us TR players, and at the same time turns up mass-produced horde of skill-less people depending on problematic mechancis and this shakes the PvP scene even further. It increases the enmity and hatred for us TR players, and as a matter of fact, it also drops the average skill level of the TR players to such low and abysmal degree that aside from the 'veteran' group I've known before mod5, every other TR popping up seems to be totally devoid of the concepts which makes the TR important in PvP.
Sabos don't need that damage. If they want piercing then they can slot Oppressive Darkness -- a case of piercing damage that's actually implemented in the CORRECT way. The amazing, jaw-dropping survivability is by itself all the rewards this path needs to receive.
Whatever difficulties and anxieties it has with actually dealing damage and trying to kill someone, is something the TR player needs to handle and overcome himself, individually, by taking risks, learning and mastering all the tactics and moves, to land big attacks -- and even if those big attacks aren't effective, it's got no choice but to repeat it -- BECAUSE THAT'S THE DARNED CHOICE THEY MADE WHEN BECOMING A SABO -- they chose safety and resilience over power and damage.
There's no reason for the game to compensate for it by giving some ridiculous way to kill people, and that's the EXACT reason why I compared the Paladings to the Sabo TRs. Becoming the infallible, unconquerable survivalist is what they chose to be, then why in the world are they asking for big-arsh damage to be able to kill anything?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I've never seen Shocking Execution doing 85k in all of my time as a TR in Mod 6, so I'm going to call nonsense on that. Please prove claims like this with screenshots or video footage, before you expect anyone to take you seriously.
At around 7,500 power on my TR (2000+ IL), this skill is currently reporting a maximum damage of 11,878. I went ahead and screenshotted the total damage it does to a training dummy, so you can see how wrong you are.
Note how that's a critical hit, too (with additional Severity from the Executioner tree, I might add). So what kind of power and gear setup are we talking to reproduce 85k damage? 100% best in slot?
I eagerly await your proof. I wasn't even one hit killed by Shocking the other night from a wallet warrior with Rank 12's and BiS gear across the board, so I highly suspect you have nothing to show us.
With no disrespect, threnodic, I'm a low-power, high utility build that emphasizes in "fun" tactics... and I'm at 9.7k.
I'm not going to make any assumptions, and I don't want to insult you, but 7,500 power is ... ummm... like the "Little League" with kids swinging the bat, whereas the level of combat guys above are talking about, is more closer to MLB sluggers.
The problem with the forums is (if you're at the combat/pvp "league" I'm guessing you are currently at -- again, with no intention of disrespect), many people just don't know how high the mountain goes.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
For a few weeks spent playing, I didn't think it was too shabby. Still, you're missing the point about as much as anyone has ever missed a point -- I showed that the skill is far from consistently doling out the kind of damage he claims, and merely used my current situation as an example. The most Power I've seen in Neverwinter so far was like 18-20k with near-perfect best in slot gear. Even assuming a critical from a Rogue, he's talking about more than quadrupling the sort of damage I'm doing with roughly double the Power on average. Those sorts of numbers don't make any sense.
I've taken hits from Shocking, from better-geared players -- I don't find it nearly as 'ZOMG NERF PLS' as he does.
That's not to say it might not be worth a look in the future, but there are far more pressing matters (Negation, Paladin exploits, perma-root HRs, etc.) before the Rogue should be a blip on the developer's horizon again.
Far more likely, this is a thinly veiled attempt at further nerfs to the Trickster Rogue (behind a façade of 'overpoweredness'), and not a truly constructive thread that's aiming to fix major problems in PvP.
BiS TR 90k'ed me 2 times in a match while i was sprinting. Just passing by and pressing a button.
I know where it is gear fault.
In my case my fault, if you wanna call it that way, is i don't use negation/ don't have ad to go pnegation+. I use SF and lathander set.
Still, i have maxed tenacity with pvp rings too (double slot rings when i cannot fill them with rank 9-12 enchants is imho worst than 600 tenacity= 4%+ resistance on crit/damage/cc and 8% on DRI or so), scars feat, 35%+ deflect, 25% dr on burning gear, close to 100k hp. Average TR in my ilvl range hits me 50k SE no problem unavoidable. Also 60k+, bis 90k+.
Saber, bis gwf with tfey hits me 50k ibs crit. Difference? I can dodge it. And often do. And is bis.
BiS TR hits be 80-90k and best thing i can do is go leap- daggers-RS and keep my finger ready on leap, or they hit 100%.
It's doable but extremely unfair.
Regular geared pvp TR SE hits like saber daily or ibs, but is also unavoidable and has more range. So unless i switch to leap, the TR gets a 50k free hit while being able to dodge my nukes.
Fair?
I'm pretty sure the point of discussion was, Shocking Execution has unfair advantage over the two classes that cannot dodge it, whilst already being unmitigatable. The performance of the current GWF meta (or SW, what have you) is irrelevant due to that there is one attack that can do unavoidable and indefensible burst damage. In retrospect, the earlier-module-cookie-cutter TR did have to spec as full executioners with Overrun Critical + First Strike, while today, you can expect the same results even from a TR of the factory-bred, mass-produced Sabo variety.
PS mirrorballs: #BringBackJumpDF
:<
This isn't funny anymore,
Piercing-dmg have to be Removed or it should NOT ignore DR.
some People say to play a TR you need to be experienced or skilled,
But this is Absolutely wrong!
The only thing what TR do is "Charge for Daily", stealth spam cloud or artifact how ever,
simply because the daily is doing over 90k-70k DMG Base (1-Shot possibility )
Seriously this is the highest Dailies Power/DMG of all classes
i've ever meet,
The Problem is there no need to be good Geared or having high enchantments,
Simply because it! is Piercing, You Automatically dealt a massive DMG.
Low geared (nothing over R8 or Legendaries) TR is going with +70k-50k for 1x Daily
Good Geared TR's 100k-80k or 1-Shot possibility
So basically,
a TR just need to do 2 Dailys and you are Dead!,
is this how is should work?!
A Fight against TR:
TR come's and use straight SE daily, So You lost over -80% of HP,
Than TR jumping around spam cloud or whatever/artifac,
BAMM Next Daily and YOUR Dead!,
That's all,
What kind of gameplay is this?!
and it doesn't matter if he have good gear or not,
Piercing dmg Boost every user massive!
This is not more Acceptable!!
Devs take a lot to Piercing dmg,
there's a Rework needed or Balance,
how ever it calls,
But definitely something need to happen!
Not to be word-nitpicky on you, but "peircing" means to pierce armor, meaning ignore DR. So the part where you said piercing "should NOT ignore DR" is just politically incorrect. I see this in almost every other response and I've just had it.
Let's all just limit the nerf calls to "remove piercing" ok? Because if piercing didn't pierce armor, then it's not "piercing" per se, and we're talking about something else and you're giving me a headache.
Remove piercing, and increase base damage to compensate, or give piercing to everyone. Done deal.